3.5 gestalt feral monk build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5 gestalt feral monk build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
g3tb3nt
Jun 08, 2013 22:46:03 In a ridiculous 'What If' game that my group is gonna try and run, I am atempting to build a gesalt feral melee monk with extra limbs for maximum number of attacks, up to level 20.
All 3.5 material is available including dragon mags.

My character so far:
human
feral template - 1d8 claws - Savage Species pg116
wish - duplicate pair of clawed arms (1d8), legs transformed into same (essentially 6 clawed handlike limbs, based on Girallon's Blessing, Spell Compendium pg106)
warlock/fighter 5
thayan gladiator/monk 10 - Champions of Ruin pg64
warlock/fighter 5

feat highlights -
beast strike - Dragon #355
eldritch claws - Dragon #358
multiattack - Monster Manual pg305
imp multiattack - Savage Species pg36
multiweapon fighting - Monster Manual pg305
improved multiweapon fighting - Savage Species pg36
greater multiweapon fighting - Savage Species pg35
multitasking - Savage Species pg36

equipment -
beast claws (on all limbs?) - Savage Species pg49

So some of my main problems:
1. Is my wish too much? If so, how should I go about getting it done? I want to be able to have a clawed attack on each limb for maximum number of natural attacks.

2. Age old gauntlet/UAS issues - taking into account being a feral thayan/monk with the beast strike feat, beast claws gauntlet (possibly on all 6 limbs), multiweapon fighting and even multitasking; Can I stack my UAS + claw dmg for all of BAB UAS (I might be using my elbows and knees, but beast strike says I can add my claw dmg to my UAS), then again for all my natural attacks? OR if a gauntlet qualifies for multiweapon fighting, do I get all 6 limb atks per BAB progression?

3. With the Thayan Gladiator class abilities, if all my natural weapons are the same (claws), would the class abilities apply to all of my claws, my primary claws or one claw? It might seem like only one, but the details of the Imbue Natural Weapon ability state 'Choose one special ability from the following list and apply it to your natural weapon(s)'. So where it might not apply to ALL my claws, I hope it applies to my primary set.

4. With an extra pair of arms, could I manifest my Eldritch Claws on my secondary pair of hands instead of my primary?
#2
draco1119
Jun 08, 2013 22:49:56 1) A gauntlet counts as an unarmed attack. A spiked gauntlet is an armed attack.
2) If you're gestalt, why not just use Tashalotora monk/PsyWar on "one side", and Tempest's Feral Druid build on the other?
#3
Andarious-Rosethorn
Jun 09, 2013 1:02:53 The Feral Druid or worse yet Captain Constitution would feel like pure cheating in Gestalt, even if the other half of your build was pure Monk.
#4
The_Fred
Jun 10, 2013 9:00:19 Monks in gestalt are a whole different ball game to in standard, but I do wonder why you're using it in this case? Your focus is on natural attacks, which aren't the same as unarmed strikes. You can attack with strikes (even flurry) and then use secondary claws, I guess, whereas typically you'd have to give up a claw to make iterative attacks, but then all your claws become secondary, and if you flurry they suffer the -2 as well.

Meanwhile, the "Feral Monk" concept is not a bad one, but the Monk as written is fluffed as a Lawful, non-feral kind of guy. You kill people by not losing your temper (because losing your temper makes you worse at fighting... unless you're a Barbarian, I guess), as so forth.

I would have to agree that Swordsage seems to work better. Several Tiger Claw manoeuvres are designed for two weapons, not many, but there are some higher-level ones (Girallon Windmill Fleshrip?) which work awesomely. With Unarmed Swordsage you can even have Monk-like IUS (though not Flurry), you get a better Wis to AC as it's in armour, and you can even have free Weapon Focus with claws (claws are Tiger Claw weapons).

But anyway, your questions:
1) Extra arms typically carry an LA. Wish could grant you those, but for balancing purposes you'd still have to take that LA. A permanent Girallon's Blessing could work, but would probably be dispellable. Possibly you could have a continuous magic item of it; it'd be what, 45k? (L3 x CL 5 x 2k, and 10 min/level = x1.5)

2) Unarmed strikes and claws are not the same thing; you can't typically stack damage. I don't know about Beast Strike though. Multiweapon Fighting certainly doesn't give you full attacks per hand, though - it works like TWF, but one extra attack per hand. Going further down the feat chain can give you more attacks, though.

4) IIRC, Eldritch Claws is kinda borked anyway, so maybe ask your DM about that.
#5
g3tb3nt
Jun 10, 2013 21:03:26 Thanks for the input guys! I have another question for this build.

Regarding a monk's UAS, extra limbs and multiweapon fighting - The PHB states that a monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Would that work with the multiweapon fighting feat allowing extra UAS from my additional limbs?

Also, is it possible with the use of spells or potions to make yourself Large to qualify for a feat? And then could I use this feat while I temporarily meet the requirements?
#6
draco1119
Jun 10, 2013 21:59:52 Yes, and sort of. Truly temporary effects like potions and non-permanent spells don't. A temporary effect like Mountain Rage (a racial ACF for goliaths) would, because it's a permanent part of the character; it's just that the effect is temporary.
Tempest had the idea to use that in order to qualify for War Hulk, and actually make The Hulk.
#7
Andarious-Rosethorn
Jun 10, 2013 22:10:13 I think I missed that discussion, that's actually fairly cool! Not that I should be shocked, it's Tempest afterall.
#8
draco1119
Jun 10, 2013 22:14:32 I'll see if I can find it, Andarious. Unless Tempest beats me to it, of course. Basically, his thinking is that you don't get the benefits or penalties when you're not Large or bigger. And then, when a Goliath barbarian gets mad, he gets the massive Str boost and loses the ability to use mental skills... Just like Dr. Banner/the Hulk.
#9
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 10, 2013 23:25:46
I'll see if I can find it, Andarious. Unless Tempest beats me to it, of course. Basically, his thinking is that you don't get the benefits or penalties when you're not Large or bigger. And then, when a Goliath barbarian gets mad, he gets the massive Str boost and loses the ability to use mental skills... Just like Dr. Banner/the Hulk.

More subtle than that, since losing Large size means you lose all properties of the War Hulk, including No Time To Think (which is MISSING from the online war hulk's text but present in its table; look at the MiniHB itself). If you keep his starting Strength at 12 or below, all of his combat feats also go offline while calm. In other words, you can have a trained scientist when calm and a total brute when angry.

It's very hard to do without gestalt (since your choices as "Banner" often won't be combat-based, meaning you rely on the +0 BAB War Hulk for that, and anything you pick as Banner probably goes away as "The Hulk") but quite possible with gestalt (since you're building, in effect, two separate characters). It also wouldn't be the first comic book character I'd made using gestalt for an unconventional pairing before - although I ask you check that post date before judging my choices.
#10
draco1119
Jun 11, 2013 8:01:33 Tempest, what would make the Banner part be? Adept? Archivist? Artificer, maybe? Something else?

(Sorry if I'm way off base; I was trying to think of scientist-type classes.)
#11
The_Fred
Jun 13, 2013 11:37:14
Would that work with the multiweapon fighting feat allowing extra UAS from my additional limbs?

I don't think so. I think it was put out in a Rules of the Game article that there is no off-hand for a Monk. That doesn't make complete sense because unarmed strikes and natural weapons are kinda borked anyway but you already have the ability to flurry, you're not meant to TWF as well (though you can with weapons...). So, you probably can't have tertiary and quaternery hands delivering unarmed strikes, since it's never defined what limb you attack with anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 g3tb3nt Jun 08, 2013 22:46:03	In a ridiculous 'What If' game that my group is gonna try and run, I am atempting to build a gesalt feral melee monk with extra limbs for maximum number of attacks, up to level 20. All 3.5 material is available including dragon mags. My character so far: human feral template - 1d8 claws - Savage Species pg116 wish - duplicate pair of clawed arms (1d8), legs transformed into same (essentially 6 clawed handlike limbs, based on Girallon's Blessing, Spell Compendium pg106) warlock/fighter 5 thayan gladiator/monk 10 - Champions of Ruin pg64 warlock/fighter 5 feat highlights - beast strike - Dragon #355 eldritch claws - Dragon #358 multiattack - Monster Manual pg305 imp multiattack - Savage Species pg36 multiweapon fighting - Monster Manual pg305 improved multiweapon fighting - Savage Species pg36 greater multiweapon fighting - Savage Species pg35 multitasking - Savage Species pg36 equipment - beast claws (on all limbs?) - Savage Species pg49 So some of my main problems: 1. Is my wish too much? If so, how should I go about getting it done? I want to be able to have a clawed attack on each limb for maximum number of natural attacks. 2. Age old gauntlet/UAS issues - taking into account being a feral thayan/monk with the beast strike feat, beast claws gauntlet (possibly on all 6 limbs), multiweapon fighting and even multitasking; Can I stack my UAS + claw dmg for all of BAB UAS (I might be using my elbows and knees, but beast strike says I can add my claw dmg to my UAS), then again for all my natural attacks? OR if a gauntlet qualifies for multiweapon fighting, do I get all 6 limb atks per BAB progression? 3. With the Thayan Gladiator class abilities, if all my natural weapons are the same (claws), would the class abilities apply to all of my claws, my primary claws or one claw? It might seem like only one, but the details of the Imbue Natural Weapon ability state 'Choose one special ability from the following list and apply it to your natural weapon(s)'. So where it might not apply to ALL my claws, I hope it applies to my primary set. 4. With an extra pair of arms, could I manifest my Eldritch Claws on my secondary pair of hands instead of my primary?
#2 draco1119 Jun 08, 2013 22:49:56	1) A gauntlet counts as an unarmed attack. A spiked gauntlet is an armed attack. 2) If you're gestalt, why not just use Tashalotora monk/PsyWar on "one side", and Tempest's Feral Druid build on the other?
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Jun 09, 2013 1:02:53	The Feral Druid or worse yet Captain Constitution would feel like pure cheating in Gestalt, even if the other half of your build was pure Monk.
#4 The_Fred Jun 10, 2013 9:00:19	Monks in gestalt are a whole different ball game to in standard, but I do wonder why you're using it in this case? Your focus is on natural attacks, which aren't the same as unarmed strikes. You can attack with strikes (even flurry) and then use secondary claws, I guess, whereas typically you'd have to give up a claw to make iterative attacks, but then all your claws become secondary, and if you flurry they suffer the -2 as well. Meanwhile, the "Feral Monk" concept is not a bad one, but the Monk as written is fluffed as a Lawful, non-feral kind of guy. You kill people by not losing your temper (because losing your temper makes you worse at fighting... unless you're a Barbarian, I guess), as so forth. I would have to agree that Swordsage seems to work better. Several Tiger Claw manoeuvres are designed for two weapons, not many, but there are some higher-level ones (Girallon Windmill Fleshrip?) which work awesomely. With Unarmed Swordsage you can even have Monk-like IUS (though not Flurry), you get a better Wis to AC as it's in armour, and you can even have free Weapon Focus with claws (claws are Tiger Claw weapons). But anyway, your questions: 1) Extra arms typically carry an LA. Wish could grant you those, but for balancing purposes you'd still have to take that LA. A permanent Girallon's Blessing could work, but would probably be dispellable. Possibly you could have a continuous magic item of it; it'd be what, 45k? (L3 x CL 5 x 2k, and 10 min/level = x1.5) 2) Unarmed strikes and claws are not the same thing; you can't typically stack damage. I don't know about Beast Strike though. Multiweapon Fighting certainly doesn't give you full attacks per hand, though - it works like TWF, but one extra attack per hand. Going further down the feat chain can give you more attacks, though. 4) IIRC, Eldritch Claws is kinda borked anyway, so maybe ask your DM about that.
#5 g3tb3nt Jun 10, 2013 21:03:26	Thanks for the input guys! I have another question for this build. Regarding a monk's UAS, extra limbs and multiweapon fighting - The PHB states that a monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Would that work with the multiweapon fighting feat allowing extra UAS from my additional limbs? Also, is it possible with the use of spells or potions to make yourself Large to qualify for a feat? And then could I use this feat while I temporarily meet the requirements?
#6 draco1119 Jun 10, 2013 21:59:52	Yes, and sort of. Truly temporary effects like potions and non-permanent spells don't. A temporary effect like Mountain Rage (a racial ACF for goliaths) would, because it's a permanent part of the character; it's just that the effect is temporary. Tempest had the idea to use that in order to qualify for War Hulk, and actually make The Hulk.
#7 Andarious-Rosethorn Jun 10, 2013 22:10:13	I think I missed that discussion, that's actually fairly cool! Not that I should be shocked, it's Tempest afterall.
#8 draco1119 Jun 10, 2013 22:14:32	I'll see if I can find it, Andarious. Unless Tempest beats me to it, of course. Basically, his thinking is that you don't get the benefits or penalties when you're not Large or bigger. And then, when a Goliath barbarian gets mad, he gets the massive Str boost and loses the ability to use mental skills... Just like Dr. Banner/the Hulk.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 10, 2013 23:25:46	I'll see if I can find it, Andarious. Unless Tempest beats me to it, of course. Basically, his thinking is that you don't get the benefits or penalties when you're not Large or bigger. And then, when a Goliath barbarian gets mad, he gets the massive Str boost and loses the ability to use mental skills... Just like Dr. Banner/the Hulk. More subtle than that, since losing Large size means you lose all properties of the War Hulk, including No Time To Think (which is MISSING from the online war hulk's text but present in its table; look at the MiniHB itself). If you keep his starting Strength at 12 or below, all of his combat feats also go offline while calm. In other words, you can have a trained scientist when calm and a total brute when angry. It's very hard to do without gestalt (since your choices as "Banner" often won't be combat-based, meaning you rely on the +0 BAB War Hulk for that, and anything you pick as Banner probably goes away as "The Hulk") but quite possible with gestalt (since you're building, in effect, two separate characters). It also wouldn't be the first comic book character I'd made using gestalt for an unconventional pairing before - although I ask you check that post date before judging my choices.
#10 draco1119 Jun 11, 2013 8:01:33	Tempest, what would make the Banner part be? Adept? Archivist? Artificer, maybe? Something else? (Sorry if I'm way off base; I was trying to think of scientist-type classes.)
#11 The_Fred Jun 13, 2013 11:37:14	Would that work with the multiweapon fighting feat allowing extra UAS from my additional limbs? I don't think so. I think it was put out in a Rules of the Game article that there is no off-hand for a Monk. That doesn't make complete sense because unarmed strikes and natural weapons are kinda borked anyway but you already have the ability to flurry, you're not meant to TWF as well (though you can with weapons...). So, you probably can't have tertiary and quaternery hands delivering unarmed strikes, since it's never defined what limb you attack with anyway.