3.5 Goblin Fighter / Beastmaster / Outrider? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5 Goblin Fighter / Beastmaster / Outrider?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Kroann
Jun 14, 2013 4:39:59 Hey guys, I decided to make a new post as my previous post focused on the Supermount build. I spoke with my DM and he will not let me take levels in paladin as a goblin.

However I would still like to fight alongside and ride a worg into combat. Could anyone suggest some class combinations to best achieve this? If possible I would like to have a fighter base, and possibly throw in some Beastmaster or Ranger lvls and then progress my pet levels with either Halfling Outrider (refluffed to Goblin Outrider) or something similar such a Wild Plains Outrider. I even saw a feat, Wild Cohort that could do this but I am not sure if it would be as effective.

Also if this build could work, what distinguishes a animal companion from a mount? If I take a level in Beastmaster and get a companion can I also ride that companion?
#2
Slagger_the_Chuul
Jun 14, 2013 8:19:15 The two prerequisites you need from the paladin to take Devoted Tracker (as a keystone of making this kind of supermount) are smite evil and a special mount.

You could still qualify for the feat if you can find some way other than paladin levels to get both of those, though by your DM's response to the idea of having a goblin paladin, you may have trouble getting smite evil by any means.
#3
VorpalBunny
Jun 14, 2013 12:27:03 And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? I can't think of anything that would explicitly forbid it. Their SRD entry lists them as Usually Neutral Evil, that means that MOST of the species falls into the allignment, but not ALL.

Furthermore, Goblins' have a racial foe (Dwarves) with an alignment entry of "Often Lawful Good" it EASILY concievable for a very young Goblin being taken in by a Paladin that took mercy on the poor bugger after wiping out the rest of his Goblin tribe (band, whatever), so you have perfectly justifiable RP reasons for doing so.

That being said: this is Cha Op not Character Creation.

You lose a LOT by not having some sort of special mount to stack with an Animal Companion.

There are classes that do grant a Special Mount other than paladin, the Light Cav feature of the Scout, the Cavalier, some others, but again, (as Slagger mentioned) of getting Smite Evil.

VB
#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 14, 2013 13:05:51 Related: There is nothing particularly earth-shattering about the Halfling Outrider as a class that makes it super-desirable for you in absence of a Supermount build. (That build depends on the Halfling Outrider saying "and" instead of "or" in its stacking rules. Literally, all that's impressive about the Outrider is that one little AND, and if you lack one of the two things that's being combined in that AND (i.e. you have no Special Mount) the class rapidly falls to mediocre. It's not terribly awful, it's just you can do so much better.) Don't feel married to the Halfling / Goblin Outrider class if you find a better mount one that works for you.

Also: Wild Cohorts are not Animal Companions, they are mechanically distinct from Animal Companion and follow a completely different, self-contained set of rules.

Finally: Without both Animal Companion and Special Mount stacking together, your Worg will probably be likely to die in combat. You can try to mitigate this by investing a lot of resources into making it tougher, but 1) it will never approach what could be obtained through the Supermount trick, and 2) everything you invest in the mount is something you don't invest in yourself, so you might end up with a half-decent Fluffy and a nearly-worthless goblin.
#5
Syltorian
Jun 14, 2013 13:30:54
And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? I can't think of anything that would explicitly forbid it. Their SRD entry lists them as Usually Neutral Evil, that means that MOST of the species falls into the allignment, but not ALL.

I have the same question, really.

Goblins are sentient creatures. So are worgs. Neither are innately bound to an alignment, as some kinds of outsiders might be. If you tried to play a barghest, I'd understand it. Especially since he seems lenient enough to let you refluff the halfling outrider as a goblin outrider. There are a number of possibilities to get a working background - raised by a different culture, as VB suggests, converted after a Saulus-to-Paulus moment, part of a subculture who resisted the evil gods, or, depending on the campaign setting, someone who simply wants to protect his people without seeing the need to slaughtering everything in their path.

But well... if the DM pulls rank on this, there are other classes, as mentioned here, which grant special mounts (the variant paladins: perhaps he lets you count Smite Good as Smite Evil for the feat; the scout substitution class feature, and so forth).

Beside that, one way would perhaps be to get "Fluffy" as a regular cohort via Leadership - it has a +1 ECL for cohorts. You can then, your DM permitting, optimize both your character and the Worg as an NPC. It can still be your animal companion, special mount (if you find a way to get that feature), and so forth, as per DMG rules. It also gives Fluffy his own money, and a couple of people to feed him and brush him down.
#6
awaken_D_M_golem
Jun 14, 2013 15:02:08 There are even more Variant Paladins like the Incarnate for Neutrals.
Named before Magic Of Incarnum's Incarnate ; it's in a Dmag iirc.

And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? ...

Heh, so he has to play a CoDzilla.

#7
Kroann
Jun 14, 2013 15:09:15 So other then the supermount build there is no build I could make that would allow me to have a decently powerful worg to fight alongside of and ride?
#8
Syltorian
Jun 14, 2013 15:22:39
There are even more Variant Paladins like the Incarnate for Neutrals.
Named before Magic Of Incarnum's Incarnate ; it's in a Dmag iirc.

#310, I believe. I've been trying to chase that issue down for quite a while now.

Do they all get special mounts, though?

So other then the supermount build there is no build I could make that would allow me to have a decently powerful worg to fight alongside of and ride?

As I said above, Leadership... if your DM lets you have it. Your worg would be an NPC, and can gain class-levels; it also won't be a drain on your own money (though it only gets NPC wealth). Supermount with your mount as a cohort would be better, but even on its own, leadership gets you a second character. Not all DMs allow Leadership, though (and it requires you to be level 6 at the least).

#9
Kroann
Jun 14, 2013 15:53:56 So Beastmaster multiclass? Why would this not work? I could choose a worg for my animal companion and if I had ride ability could I not ride my animal companion?

I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit.
#10
draco1119
Jun 14, 2013 16:57:13 An exploit, or full Druid progression. And you've already shot down the Druid.
#11
Kroann
Jun 14, 2013 17:10:22
An exploit, or full Druid progression. And you've already shot down the Druid.

Ok I'm considering taking the Leadership feat and getting my worg companion that way.

My other idea was to take the Wild Cohort feat.

With either of these feats, could I not obtain a worg, and take appropraite feats (mounted combat, mounted archery, ect.) to make it a viable companion?

Would I need Handle Animal aswell and if so for what?

#12
Kroann
Jun 14, 2013 19:42:44 If I took say Barbarian 5 / Beastmaster 1/ Wild Plains Outrider 14 (just an example) I could effectivly end up with an animal companion equal to that of a 16th lvl druid?

Combined with natural bond this seems like it could be a pretty good option for a mount / animal companion?
#13
draco1119
Jun 14, 2013 19:47:37 Prestige Classes only last as long as they say they do, so the most you could get in WPO is 10 levels.
#14
StevenO
Jun 14, 2013 20:34:02
Prestige Classes only last as long as they say they do, so the most you could get in WPO is 10 levels.

Unless they specifically list more levels pre-Epic you can only take the 10 levels listed in a PrC. If a PrC lists fewer than ten levels then those are the maximum number of levels you may EVER take. If the pre-epic form lists more than 10 classes (like True Necromancer) you can take them but there are very few of those and WPO is not one of them.

I know if I could just take a PrC and carry it out as far as I like you'd see a lot of builds with a dozen or more levels of Abjurant Champion in them.

#15
VorpalBunny
Jun 14, 2013 22:20:57

And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? ...

Heh, so he has to play a CoDzilla.

(Off Topic) My DM did the same thing to me. Shot down Swordsage (because he thinks Tome of Battle is OP), so I'm playing an optimized GOD Wizard and blowing up his campaign.

(Back on topic) Your build of "Barbarian 5 / Beastmaster 1/ Wild Plains Outrider 10/Other PRC 4" could work as an Ubercharger. You would be using the Horse Lord Barbarian variant from DR 337 I take it?

VB
#16
Slagger_the_Chuul
Jun 15, 2013 3:11:17
I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit.

They're normally feasible, but they're also normally a lot more expendable; when a druid or ranger loses an animal companion, they usually just need to get another one.
#17
Kroann
Jun 15, 2013 5:33:18
I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit.

They're normally feasible, but they're also normally a lot more expendable; when a druid or ranger loses an animal companion, they usually just need to get another one.

Thats fine. Like I said the campainge I am playing in is not optimized, and if I do happen to lose my companion i'm sure i'll just find another one.

Anyhow I found another class called the Beast Heart Adept that would let me pick up a Worg as my magical beast, if I took 4 levels in this it would also grant me some really nice flanking bonuses with my worg. I could talk to my DM to see if he would let Natures Bond work with this class, and also if he would let WPO progress my worg. It makes sence to me and is in the spirit of the rules.

I'm not sure what entry class I should start with, I was thinking Wildnerss Rogue till I qualify, then afew lvls of BHA, and then to strenghten my mounted abilities add in some levels of WPO? So something like

Wilderness Rogue 5
Beast Heart Adept 5
Wild Plains Outrider 10

This will be my first 3.5 game (i've played some 4e) so I appreciate all your advice and apoligize if I'm beginning to annoy any of you with all my questions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kroann Jun 14, 2013 4:39:59	Hey guys, I decided to make a new post as my previous post focused on the Supermount build. I spoke with my DM and he will not let me take levels in paladin as a goblin. However I would still like to fight alongside and ride a worg into combat. Could anyone suggest some class combinations to best achieve this? If possible I would like to have a fighter base, and possibly throw in some Beastmaster or Ranger lvls and then progress my pet levels with either Halfling Outrider (refluffed to Goblin Outrider) or something similar such a Wild Plains Outrider. I even saw a feat, Wild Cohort that could do this but I am not sure if it would be as effective. Also if this build could work, what distinguishes a animal companion from a mount? If I take a level in Beastmaster and get a companion can I also ride that companion?
#2 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 14, 2013 8:19:15	The two prerequisites you need from the paladin to take Devoted Tracker (as a keystone of making this kind of supermount) are smite evil and a special mount. You could still qualify for the feat if you can find some way other than paladin levels to get both of those, though by your DM's response to the idea of having a goblin paladin, you may have trouble getting smite evil by any means.
#3 VorpalBunny Jun 14, 2013 12:27:03	And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? I can't think of anything that would explicitly forbid it. Their SRD entry lists them as Usually Neutral Evil, that means that MOST of the species falls into the allignment, but not ALL. Furthermore, Goblins' have a racial foe (Dwarves) with an alignment entry of "Often Lawful Good" it EASILY concievable for a very young Goblin being taken in by a Paladin that took mercy on the poor bugger after wiping out the rest of his Goblin tribe (band, whatever), so you have perfectly justifiable RP reasons for doing so. That being said: this is Cha Op not Character Creation. You lose a LOT by not having some sort of special mount to stack with an Animal Companion. There are classes that do grant a Special Mount other than paladin, the Light Cav feature of the Scout, the Cavalier, some others, but again, (as Slagger mentioned) of getting Smite Evil. VB
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 14, 2013 13:05:51	Related: There is nothing particularly earth-shattering about the Halfling Outrider as a class that makes it super-desirable for you in absence of a Supermount build. (That build depends on the Halfling Outrider saying "and" instead of "or" in its stacking rules. Literally, all that's impressive about the Outrider is that one little AND, and if you lack one of the two things that's being combined in that AND (i.e. you have no Special Mount) the class rapidly falls to mediocre. It's not terribly awful, it's just you can do so much better.) Don't feel married to the Halfling / Goblin Outrider class if you find a better mount one that works for you. Also: Wild Cohorts are not Animal Companions, they are mechanically distinct from Animal Companion and follow a completely different, self-contained set of rules. Finally: Without both Animal Companion and Special Mount stacking together, your Worg will probably be likely to die in combat. You can try to mitigate this by investing a lot of resources into making it tougher, but 1) it will never approach what could be obtained through the Supermount trick, and 2) everything you invest in the mount is something you don't invest in yourself, so you might end up with a half-decent Fluffy and a nearly-worthless goblin.
#5 Syltorian Jun 14, 2013 13:30:54	And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? I can't think of anything that would explicitly forbid it. Their SRD entry lists them as Usually Neutral Evil, that means that MOST of the species falls into the allignment, but not ALL. I have the same question, really. Goblins are sentient creatures. So are worgs. Neither are innately bound to an alignment, as some kinds of outsiders might be. If you tried to play a barghest, I'd understand it. Especially since he seems lenient enough to let you refluff the halfling outrider as a goblin outrider. There are a number of possibilities to get a working background - raised by a different culture, as VB suggests, converted after a Saulus-to-Paulus moment, part of a subculture who resisted the evil gods, or, depending on the campaign setting, someone who simply wants to protect his people without seeing the need to slaughtering everything in their path. But well... if the DM pulls rank on this, there are other classes, as mentioned here, which grant special mounts (the variant paladins: perhaps he lets you count Smite Good as Smite Evil for the feat; the scout substitution class feature, and so forth). Beside that, one way would perhaps be to get "Fluffy" as a regular cohort via Leadership - it has a +1 ECL for cohorts. You can then, your DM permitting, optimize both your character and the Worg as an NPC. It can still be your animal companion, special mount (if you find a way to get that feature), and so forth, as per DMG rules. It also gives Fluffy his own money, and a couple of people to feed him and brush him down.
#6 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 14, 2013 15:02:08	There are even more Variant Paladins like the Incarnate for Neutrals. Named before Magic Of Incarnum's Incarnate ; it's in a Dmag iirc. And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? ... Heh, so he has to play a CoDzilla.
#7 Kroann Jun 14, 2013 15:09:15	So other then the supermount build there is no build I could make that would allow me to have a decently powerful worg to fight alongside of and ride?
#8 Syltorian Jun 14, 2013 15:22:39	There are even more Variant Paladins like the Incarnate for Neutrals. Named before Magic Of Incarnum's Incarnate ; it's in a Dmag iirc. #310, I believe. I've been trying to chase that issue down for quite a while now. Do they all get special mounts, though? So other then the supermount build there is no build I could make that would allow me to have a decently powerful worg to fight alongside of and ride? As I said above, Leadership... if your DM lets you have it. Your worg would be an NPC, and can gain class-levels; it also won't be a drain on your own money (though it only gets NPC wealth). Supermount with your mount as a cohort would be better, but even on its own, leadership gets you a second character. Not all DMs allow Leadership, though (and it requires you to be level 6 at the least).
#9 Kroann Jun 14, 2013 15:53:56	So Beastmaster multiclass? Why would this not work? I could choose a worg for my animal companion and if I had ride ability could I not ride my animal companion? I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit.
#10 draco1119 Jun 14, 2013 16:57:13	An exploit, or full Druid progression. And you've already shot down the Druid.
#11 Kroann Jun 14, 2013 17:10:22	An exploit, or full Druid progression. And you've already shot down the Druid. Ok I'm considering taking the Leadership feat and getting my worg companion that way. My other idea was to take the Wild Cohort feat. With either of these feats, could I not obtain a worg, and take appropraite feats (mounted combat, mounted archery, ect.) to make it a viable companion? Would I need Handle Animal aswell and if so for what?
#12 Kroann Jun 14, 2013 19:42:44	If I took say Barbarian 5 / Beastmaster 1/ Wild Plains Outrider 14 (just an example) I could effectivly end up with an animal companion equal to that of a 16th lvl druid? Combined with natural bond this seems like it could be a pretty good option for a mount / animal companion?
#13 draco1119 Jun 14, 2013 19:47:37	Prestige Classes only last as long as they say they do, so the most you could get in WPO is 10 levels.
#14 StevenO Jun 14, 2013 20:34:02	Prestige Classes only last as long as they say they do, so the most you could get in WPO is 10 levels. Unless they specifically list more levels pre-Epic you can only take the 10 levels listed in a PrC. If a PrC lists fewer than ten levels then those are the maximum number of levels you may EVER take. If the pre-epic form lists more than 10 classes (like True Necromancer) you can take them but there are very few of those and WPO is not one of them. I know if I could just take a PrC and carry it out as far as I like you'd see a lot of builds with a dozen or more levels of Abjurant Champion in them.
#15 VorpalBunny Jun 14, 2013 22:20:57	And WHY won't your DM let you play a Goblin Paladin? ... Heh, so he has to play a CoDzilla. (Off Topic) My DM did the same thing to me. Shot down Swordsage (because he thinks Tome of Battle is OP), so I'm playing an optimized GOD Wizard and blowing up his campaign. (Back on topic) Your build of "Barbarian 5 / Beastmaster 1/ Wild Plains Outrider 10/Other PRC 4" could work as an Ubercharger. You would be using the Horse Lord Barbarian variant from DR 337 I take it? VB
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 15, 2013 3:11:17	I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit. They're normally feasible, but they're also normally a lot more expendable; when a druid or ranger loses an animal companion, they usually just need to get another one.
#17 Kroann Jun 15, 2013 5:33:18	I just find it hard to understand that the only way to make an animal companion feesable in 3.5 is through an exploit. They're normally feasible, but they're also normally a lot more expendable; when a druid or ranger loses an animal companion, they usually just need to get another one. Thats fine. Like I said the campainge I am playing in is not optimized, and if I do happen to lose my companion i'm sure i'll just find another one. Anyhow I found another class called the Beast Heart Adept that would let me pick up a Worg as my magical beast, if I took 4 levels in this it would also grant me some really nice flanking bonuses with my worg. I could talk to my DM to see if he would let Natures Bond work with this class, and also if he would let WPO progress my worg. It makes sence to me and is in the spirit of the rules. I'm not sure what entry class I should start with, I was thinking Wildnerss Rogue till I qualify, then afew lvls of BHA, and then to strenghten my mounted abilities add in some levels of WPO? So something like Wilderness Rogue 5 Beast Heart Adept 5 Wild Plains Outrider 10 This will be my first 3.5 game (i've played some 4e) so I appreciate all your advice and apoligize if I'm beginning to annoy any of you with all my questions.