3.5 Goblin Worg Rider - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5 Goblin Worg Rider

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Kroann
Jun 12, 2013 13:22:59 Hey guys, i've got this idea for a character. I don't know much about 3.5 character building an what options to consider so I am asking advice on how to best go about creating this character.

Basically I would like to play a goblin who rides around the battlefield on a worg. Right away I assumed that some varaition of the Scout class is the way to go? I would like to use a combination of shortbow, and a melee weapon for when I am stuck in the middle of it.

I'm not sure if its doable but if my worg could help me fight or be of some use while not mounted that would be great, I would basically like it if the worg was sort of an extension of my character, but this is not necessiary if it's too difficult.

So what do you guys think? Scout / Fighter with proper feat selection? I really dont know where to start.
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 12, 2013 13:31:50 Two problems.

1) Scout skirmish will not trigger on a mount - you have to move, not the mount.
2) Mounted characters tend to lag behind their non-mounted compatriots in every case except Supermount! builds, which are halfling-exclusive. (A partial exception exists for specialized mounted classes that have exotic mounts, such as the Ashworm Dragoon (rides a sandworm) or Lord of the Iron Glacier (rides a war moose) - to my knowledge none of these exist for worgs.)

My suggestion, though, would be to take the Halfling Outrider and do a swap on the race requirement to Goblin (the class' abilities are pretty bland and should work for any small, quick race - goblins are pretty good swaps for halflings in many cases), then play a Supermount! build. Worgs are not the best base mount for this, but thankfully you don't need them to be - the build it usually "strong enough" on its own. The usual approach is something like Paladin 5 / Beastmaster 1 / Outrider 10 / [Any special-mount progression class you like 5; back in the day Wild Plains Outrider was the usual go-to but there may be better ones out there now] with the Devoted Tracker feat at 6th and Natural Bond at 9th. The typical structure gives your mount all the abilities of both the Special Mount and the Animal Companion.
#3
Syltorian
Jun 12, 2013 14:24:10 Maybe you can also get some inspiration from this thread. It uses the Bowman Charger Prestige Class from Dragon Magazine. I've never played the Class, but it might be interesting to include. I'm not enough of an optimiser to assess this to any useful extend. The Shaarian Hunter from the Player's Guide to Faerun has a nice flavour, but as to its effectiveness, I cannot speak.

The Scout "Light Cavalry" variant from Dragon346 grants you a paladin-like mount in exchange for fast movement, camouflage, hide in plain sight and free movement; unfortunately, it does not give you skirmish while mounted. It's such a pity they errata'ed the skirmish ability and destroyed the possibility of really pulling off that "Parthian Shot".
#4
StevenO
Jun 12, 2013 15:15:28 Tempest pretty much covered my thoughs if you're really trying to optimize a 'rider' build. It will definitely work so much better if you can substitue "goblin" for "halfling" for that as the halfling gets unduely spoiled in regards to making a good mounted build.

As an aside the reason a mounted halfing build can work is due to its size. A small creature can ride a medium sized one and when most "adventuring spaces" cater to medium sized creatures things work out just fine. Try taking a horse into a dungeon and you're probably asking for trouble.

#5
draco1119
Jun 12, 2013 16:43:52 My first thought was "goblin Druid". *shrug*
#6
StevenO
Jun 12, 2013 17:55:16
My first thought was "goblin Druid". *shrug*

If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while.

#7
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 12, 2013 18:08:06
My first thought was "goblin Druid". *shrug*

If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while.

It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build.
#8
Kroann
Jun 12, 2013 18:50:21 Is there any alternative to the paladin or druid? Really not a class I would like to go with my goblin if I can help it. Ranger perhaps?

If not I guess I could refluff.
#9
Kroann
Jun 12, 2013 18:55:04
Tempest pretty much covered my thoughs if you're really trying to optimize a 'rider' build. It will definitely work so much better if you can substitue "goblin" for "halfling" for that as the halfling gets unduely spoiled in regards to making a good mounted build.

As an aside the reason a mounted halfing build can work is due to its size. A small creature can ride a medium sized one and when most "adventuring spaces" cater to medium sized creatures things work out just fine. Try taking a horse into a dungeon and you're probably asking for trouble.

Curious as to what Tempest offers to this build idea?
#10
draco1119
Jun 12, 2013 19:02:50 5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.
#11
Kroann
Jun 12, 2013 19:20:10
5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.

wouldn't this prevent me from getting devoted tracker which required smite evil?
#12
draco1119
Jun 12, 2013 19:23:03 Technically, yes. You would have to ask your DM to allow the Smite Good ability to count.
#13
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 12, 2013 19:25:38
5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.

Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment).

Basically, the build is:
Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th.
Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion.
From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion.
Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC.

Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger.
#14
Kroann
Jun 12, 2013 19:35:11
5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.

Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment).

Basically, the build is:
Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th.
Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion.
From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion.
Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC.

Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger.

Ok i'm starting to get a grasp of this build, but still have afew questions.

What benifit does a special mount (5 lvls of paladin) have over a regular mount?

When I take Beastmaster at 6th lvl, I pick a new animal companion other then my worg? I'm abit confused about how this works until I get Devoted Tracker.

And what exactly happens when my Halfling Outrider lvls stack with my paladin special mount and animal companion? I am trying to wrap my head around this whole concept of stacking special mount / Animal Companion / etc. I know it makes my mount more powerful but how?
#15
StevenO
Jun 12, 2013 19:42:28
My first thought was "goblin Druid". *shrug*

If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while.

It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build.

Have we crossed wires somewhere? I thing draco and I are mentioning Warg for use with a Druid and not with a Paladin. Honestly, Goblin Paladin really isn't something most of us go to very quickly although it may be needed for that supermount build.

I'm going to admit I'm not a big fan of the alternative Paladins but then again there isn't a good reason Paladin needs to be LG and as long as you don't try "Alternative Paladin"/Blackguard and say you can double up on CHA for things I'm done complaining about it.

#16
draco1119
Jun 12, 2013 20:40:05
5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.

Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment).

Basically, the build is:
Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th.
Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion.
From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion.
Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC.

Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger.

Ok i'm starting to get a grasp of this build, but still have afew questions.

What benifit does a special mount (5 lvls of paladin) have over a regular mount?

They can be summoned and sent away with any equipment (easy way to keep certain items safe. More importantly, though, special mounts get bonuses (extra HD, Str, etc) dependent upon your class (paladin) level. (And see below for more.)
When I take Beastmaster at 6th lvl, I pick a new animal companion other then my worg? I'm abit confused about how this works until I get Devoted Tracker.

Yes. Riding dog is popular, though you may want a bear instead.
And what exactly happens when my Halfling Outrider lvls stack with my paladin special mount and animal companion? I am trying to wrap my head around this whole concept of stacking special mount / Animal Companion / etc. I know it makes my mount more powerful but how?

Your mount and animal companion each get bonuses for your CLASS levels in paladin and Druid/ranger, respectively. What devoted Tracker and Outrider do is combine those levels and add to them. This means that the Pal 5/Beastmaster 1/Outrider 10 build Tempest outlined will have ONE "special companion" whose abilities are equal to that of BOTH the special mount of a 19th-level paladin AND a 19th-level Druid.
My first thought was "goblin Druid". *shrug*

If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while.

It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build.

Have we crossed wires somewhere? I thing draco and I are mentioning Warg for use with a Druid and not with a Paladin. Honestly, Goblin Paladin really isn't something most of us go to very quickly although it may be needed for that supermount build.

I believe what Tempest is saying is that a worg doesn't work as an ANIMAL companion because it's too intelligent. However based on the "unicorns for elves" precedent, it wouldn't be at all difficult to make a case for a goblin to get a worg as a racial ACF.
#17
vortsukoto
Jun 12, 2013 21:56:57 Might I suggest looking through this: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=25 ? It talks about mounts and what you can do with them once you've got them. It might give you a good idea on what to do, or at least good enough to come back with a build in mind for us to offer advice about.
#18
Kroann
Jun 13, 2013 15:05:21 So I am wondering if there are any alternatives to taking 5 paladin levels? My DM will not allow any evil alignment (was going to be goblin paladin of tyranny), and I don't want to be a LG Goblin (I would rather not be a goblin paladin at all).

So am I pigeon-holed into taking paladin with the SUPERMOUNT build or is there another way around it?
#19
draco1119
Jun 13, 2013 15:17:57 Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid.
#20
Kroann
Jun 13, 2013 15:33:00
Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid.

What would this build look like? What would I be missing out on if I had went with the 5 lvls of Paladin? Aside from druid is there any other options? What about Beastmaster? I would like to keep magic to a minimum if possible.

What about like Fighter/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider? Or Ranger/BM/Halfling Outrider?
#21
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 13, 2013 15:51:48
Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid.

What would this build look like? What would I be missing out on if I had went with the 5 lvls of Paladin? Aside from druid is there any other options? What about Beastmaster? I would like to keep magic to a minimum if possible.

What about like Fighter/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider? Or Ranger/BM/Halfling Outrider?

The entire reason behind the beastmaster/outrider approach is to have BOTH a Special Mount and an Animal Companion, because Devoted Tracker stacks both of their abilities together on the same animal, and Halfling Outrider stacks with both progressions at the same time, giving you a pretty strong monster on its own right.

Without a Special Mount, you lose about half of your strength right there. The increased strength from Special Mount progression on top of Animal Companion progression makes up for the lack of magic.

Druid is the only other class that can get by with a powerful pet, and it relies on its magic where the Supermount! would rely on the Special Mount progression. Beastmaster + Natural Bond can come close, particularly if you're getting a separate "special mount" from one of the specialist mounted classes (there isn't one for Worg; I'm referring to the Ashworm Dragoon, Knight of the Iron Glacier, and so on where you get Special Mount progression AND class features that support your mount's unique abilities), but it would take some houseruling duct tape to get Devoted Tracker to work in this situation (as your Special Mount isn't from a paladin progression), and you'd get into Outrider later than before (and probably with much more difficulty).

Without magic, and without the Special Mount class feature + the Devoted Tracker feat, and if your DM sends CR-appropriate monsters against you, you're dooming Fluffy to an early grave, I'm afraid. You can give him a fighting chance via Beastmaster, but I'm not sure what else would work with it (Outrider isn't as good as it seems if it's only advancing Animal Companion and not also Special Mount).
#22
Kroann
Jun 13, 2013 17:48:15 Ok, i've decided that paladin levels are just not for my Goblin, it poses alignment issues, and I just can't fathome goblin paladin.

I would however still like to play a goblin who fights alongside and rides a Worg in combat, I am not playing in an optimized campainge but I would still like to have a solid build with some good synergy.

Do you guys have any other suggestions of how to make this work? I could still refluff the Halfling Outrider to Goblin outrider, Could I do this with Ranger or Beastmaster, possibly with some Fighter levels or Wild Plains Outrider?

On Page 24 of the Supermount Thread someone posted a variation of the build that does not use paladin lvls or the Devoted Tracker Feat, I think it uses Fighter/Ranger/BeastMasater/WPO/HO.

Edit: Would the Wild Cohort feat help at all with this?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kroann Jun 12, 2013 13:22:59	Hey guys, i've got this idea for a character. I don't know much about 3.5 character building an what options to consider so I am asking advice on how to best go about creating this character. Basically I would like to play a goblin who rides around the battlefield on a worg. Right away I assumed that some varaition of the Scout class is the way to go? I would like to use a combination of shortbow, and a melee weapon for when I am stuck in the middle of it. I'm not sure if its doable but if my worg could help me fight or be of some use while not mounted that would be great, I would basically like it if the worg was sort of an extension of my character, but this is not necessiary if it's too difficult. So what do you guys think? Scout / Fighter with proper feat selection? I really dont know where to start.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 12, 2013 13:31:50	Two problems. 1) Scout skirmish will not trigger on a mount - you have to move, not the mount. 2) Mounted characters tend to lag behind their non-mounted compatriots in every case except Supermount! builds, which are halfling-exclusive. (A partial exception exists for specialized mounted classes that have exotic mounts, such as the Ashworm Dragoon (rides a sandworm) or Lord of the Iron Glacier (rides a war moose) - to my knowledge none of these exist for worgs.) My suggestion, though, would be to take the Halfling Outrider and do a swap on the race requirement to Goblin (the class' abilities are pretty bland and should work for any small, quick race - goblins are pretty good swaps for halflings in many cases), then play a Supermount! build. Worgs are not the best base mount for this, but thankfully you don't need them to be - the build it usually "strong enough" on its own. The usual approach is something like Paladin 5 / Beastmaster 1 / Outrider 10 / [Any special-mount progression class you like 5; back in the day Wild Plains Outrider was the usual go-to but there may be better ones out there now] with the Devoted Tracker feat at 6th and Natural Bond at 9th. The typical structure gives your mount all the abilities of both the Special Mount and the Animal Companion.
#3 Syltorian Jun 12, 2013 14:24:10	Maybe you can also get some inspiration from this thread. It uses the Bowman Charger Prestige Class from Dragon Magazine. I've never played the Class, but it might be interesting to include. I'm not enough of an optimiser to assess this to any useful extend. The Shaarian Hunter from the Player's Guide to Faerun has a nice flavour, but as to its effectiveness, I cannot speak. The Scout "Light Cavalry" variant from Dragon346 grants you a paladin-like mount in exchange for fast movement, camouflage, hide in plain sight and free movement; unfortunately, it does not give you skirmish while mounted. It's such a pity they errata'ed the skirmish ability and destroyed the possibility of really pulling off that "Parthian Shot".
#4 StevenO Jun 12, 2013 15:15:28	Tempest pretty much covered my thoughs if you're really trying to optimize a 'rider' build. It will definitely work so much better if you can substitue "goblin" for "halfling" for that as the halfling gets unduely spoiled in regards to making a good mounted build. As an aside the reason a mounted halfing build can work is due to its size. A small creature can ride a medium sized one and when most "adventuring spaces" cater to medium sized creatures things work out just fine. Try taking a horse into a dungeon and you're probably asking for trouble.
#5 draco1119 Jun 12, 2013 16:43:52	My first thought was "goblin Druid". shrug
#6 StevenO Jun 12, 2013 17:55:16	My first thought was "goblin Druid". shrug If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 12, 2013 18:08:06	My first thought was "goblin Druid". shrug If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while. It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build.
#8 Kroann Jun 12, 2013 18:50:21	Is there any alternative to the paladin or druid? Really not a class I would like to go with my goblin if I can help it. Ranger perhaps? If not I guess I could refluff.
#9 Kroann Jun 12, 2013 18:55:04	Tempest pretty much covered my thoughs if you're really trying to optimize a 'rider' build. It will definitely work so much better if you can substitue "goblin" for "halfling" for that as the halfling gets unduely spoiled in regards to making a good mounted build. As an aside the reason a mounted halfing build can work is due to its size. A small creature can ride a medium sized one and when most "adventuring spaces" cater to medium sized creatures things work out just fine. Try taking a horse into a dungeon and you're probably asking for trouble. Curious as to what Tempest offers to this build idea?
#10 draco1119 Jun 12, 2013 19:02:50	5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin.
#11 Kroann Jun 12, 2013 19:20:10	5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin. wouldn't this prevent me from getting devoted tracker which required smite evil?
#12 draco1119 Jun 12, 2013 19:23:03	Technically, yes. You would have to ask your DM to allow the Smite Good ability to count.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 12, 2013 19:25:38	5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin. Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment). Basically, the build is: Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th. Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion. From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion. Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC. Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger.
#14 Kroann Jun 12, 2013 19:35:11	5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin. Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment). Basically, the build is: Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th. Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion. From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion. Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC. Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger. Ok i'm starting to get a grasp of this build, but still have afew questions. What benifit does a special mount (5 lvls of paladin) have over a regular mount? When I take Beastmaster at 6th lvl, I pick a new animal companion other then my worg? I'm abit confused about how this works until I get Devoted Tracker. And what exactly happens when my Halfling Outrider lvls stack with my paladin special mount and animal companion? I am trying to wrap my head around this whole concept of stacking special mount / Animal Companion / etc. I know it makes my mount more powerful but how?
#15 StevenO Jun 12, 2013 19:42:28	My first thought was "goblin Druid". shrug If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while. It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build. Have we crossed wires somewhere? I thing draco and I are mentioning Warg for use with a Druid and not with a Paladin. Honestly, Goblin Paladin really isn't something most of us go to very quickly although it may be needed for that supermount build. I'm going to admit I'm not a big fan of the alternative Paladins but then again there isn't a good reason Paladin needs to be LG and as long as you don't try "Alternative Paladin"/Blackguard and say you can double up on CHA for things I'm done complaining about it.
#16 draco1119 Jun 12, 2013 20:40:05	5 levels in Paladin of Tyranny (it's in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD) would work. It's a Lawful Evil paladin. Or Paladin of Slaughter (Chaotic Evil) or Freedom (Chaotic Good, although the worg would need to be a racial thing due to their default Evil alignment). Basically, the build is: Paladin 1-5 to get Special Mount (pick a Worg; it's just about on par with a heavy warhorse anyway and thematic for a goblin). Feats you need are Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Track, and Skill Focus (Handle Animal); one of these comes online at 6th. Beastmaster 1 at 6th. This gives you a stronger (effective druid level 4 to start) Animal Companion. From 7 to 16, you take levels in Halfling Goblin Outrider. This class stacks with Paladin for Special Mount and Druid (from Beastmaster) for Animal Companion. Your remaining feats include Devoted Tracker at 9 (Can be taken at 6 if you've got flaws around), which combines your animal companion and your special mount into the same creature, and Natural Bond (+3 companion levels). The remaining feats are open to you; I'd also remember that you can get the effects of Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge from equipment in the MIC. Net result? You and your mount are one. Your worg is actually strong enough to remain fighting frontline (normally mounts are a liability), and you can still kick ass from its back as a charger. Ok i'm starting to get a grasp of this build, but still have afew questions. What benifit does a special mount (5 lvls of paladin) have over a regular mount? They can be summoned and sent away with any equipment (easy way to keep certain items safe. More importantly, though, special mounts get bonuses (extra HD, Str, etc) dependent upon your class (paladin) level. (And see below for more.) When I take Beastmaster at 6th lvl, I pick a new animal companion other then my worg? I'm abit confused about how this works until I get Devoted Tracker. Yes. Riding dog is popular, though you may want a bear instead. And what exactly happens when my Halfling Outrider lvls stack with my paladin special mount and animal companion? I am trying to wrap my head around this whole concept of stacking special mount / Animal Companion / etc. I know it makes my mount more powerful but how? Your mount and animal companion each get bonuses for your CLASS levels in paladin and Druid/ranger, respectively. What devoted Tracker and Outrider do is combine those levels and add to them. This means that the Pal 5/Beastmaster 1/Outrider 10 build Tempest outlined will have ONE "special companion" whose abilities are equal to that of BOTH the special mount of a 19th-level paladin AND a 19th-level Druid. My first thought was "goblin Druid". shrug If you really want simple that certainly works. I even believe a Warg is available as an Animal Companion although it does require waiting a little while. It isn't by default (Intelligence 6), but the rules on what you can pick for a special mount are more lax (and include intelligent creatures already, most dramatically the Intelligence 10 unicorn). They don't say Worg specifically, likely due to alignment concerns (the DMG assumes the LG Paladin), but statistically worgs are extremely similar to the standard heavy warhorse, so I don't think there'd be any problems for an Evil paladin having a worg special mount. Devoted Tracker than connects that up with your animal companion bonuses you're getting from Beastmaster + Natural Bond in the Supermount build. Have we crossed wires somewhere? I thing draco and I are mentioning Warg for use with a Druid and not with a Paladin. Honestly, Goblin Paladin really isn't something most of us go to very quickly although it may be needed for that supermount build. I believe what Tempest is saying is that a worg doesn't work as an ANIMAL companion because it's too intelligent. However based on the "unicorns for elves" precedent, it wouldn't be at all difficult to make a case for a goblin to get a worg as a racial ACF.
#17 vortsukoto Jun 12, 2013 21:56:57	Might I suggest looking through this: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=25 ? It talks about mounts and what you can do with them once you've got them. It might give you a good idea on what to do, or at least good enough to come back with a build in mind for us to offer advice about.
#18 Kroann Jun 13, 2013 15:05:21	So I am wondering if there are any alternatives to taking 5 paladin levels? My DM will not allow any evil alignment (was going to be goblin paladin of tyranny), and I don't want to be a LG Goblin (I would rather not be a goblin paladin at all). So am I pigeon-holed into taking paladin with the SUPERMOUNT build or is there another way around it?
#19 draco1119 Jun 13, 2013 15:17:57	Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid.
#20 Kroann Jun 13, 2013 15:33:00	Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid. What would this build look like? What would I be missing out on if I had went with the 5 lvls of Paladin? Aside from druid is there any other options? What about Beastmaster? I would like to keep magic to a minimum if possible. What about like Fighter/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider? Or Ranger/BM/Halfling Outrider?
#21 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 13, 2013 15:51:48	Ask if you can have a worg as an animal companion as a goblin Druid. What would this build look like? What would I be missing out on if I had went with the 5 lvls of Paladin? Aside from druid is there any other options? What about Beastmaster? I would like to keep magic to a minimum if possible. What about like Fighter/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider? Or Ranger/BM/Halfling Outrider? The entire reason behind the beastmaster/outrider approach is to have BOTH a Special Mount and an Animal Companion, because Devoted Tracker stacks both of their abilities together on the same animal, and Halfling Outrider stacks with both progressions at the same time, giving you a pretty strong monster on its own right. Without a Special Mount, you lose about half of your strength right there. The increased strength from Special Mount progression on top of Animal Companion progression makes up for the lack of magic. Druid is the only other class that can get by with a powerful pet, and it relies on its magic where the Supermount! would rely on the Special Mount progression. Beastmaster + Natural Bond can come close, particularly if you're getting a separate "special mount" from one of the specialist mounted classes (there isn't one for Worg; I'm referring to the Ashworm Dragoon, Knight of the Iron Glacier, and so on where you get Special Mount progression AND class features that support your mount's unique abilities), but it would take some houseruling duct tape to get Devoted Tracker to work in this situation (as your Special Mount isn't from a paladin progression), and you'd get into Outrider later than before (and probably with much more difficulty). Without magic, and without the Special Mount class feature + the Devoted Tracker feat, and if your DM sends CR-appropriate monsters against you, you're dooming Fluffy to an early grave, I'm afraid. You can give him a fighting chance via Beastmaster, but I'm not sure what else would work with it (Outrider isn't as good as it seems if it's only advancing Animal Companion and not also Special Mount).
#22 Kroann Jun 13, 2013 17:48:15	Ok, i've decided that paladin levels are just not for my Goblin, it poses alignment issues, and I just can't fathome goblin paladin. I would however still like to play a goblin who fights alongside and rides a Worg in combat, I am not playing in an optimized campainge but I would still like to have a solid build with some good synergy. Do you guys have any other suggestions of how to make this work? I could still refluff the Halfling Outrider to Goblin outrider, Could I do this with Ranger or Beastmaster, possibly with some Fighter levels or Wild Plains Outrider? On Page 24 of the Supermount Thread someone posted a variation of the build that does not use paladin lvls or the Devoted Tracker Feat, I think it uses Fighter/Ranger/BeastMasater/WPO/HO. Edit: Would the Wild Cohort feat help at all with this?