I'm novice at D&D (I've played some few times before for short time) and I was invited to a level 15 game.
I like to play unarmed fighters, but unfortunately it seems that the monk class is really underpower. So I made some search to see if I could find some light and I've been reading lots and lots of forums and guides (and I'm still doing that!). Problem is: I found so much information that I'm completely lost!
So I'd appreciate to receive help to build a level 15 "Monk" (unarmed fighter) as powerful as possible. The main goal is to create a dedicated combatant that does the highest possible unarmed damage, using some combination with Monk and other classes/PrC.
So I'll need some advices to decide these very important steps: Race, Classes and Feats.
===> Step 1: Choosing the Race
* The first option is to take Half-Giant. The -2 to Dextery is bad, but they have Powerful Build, which increase the size category by one level. They also have other good stuff (psionic abilities and 2 extra power points) and has Level Adjustment +1.
* The second option is Githzerai. They don't have Powerful Build, like Half-Giants and have Level Ajustment +2, but they have +2 to Wisdom and +6 to Dextery (!!!). With such high Dextery, Weapon Finess seems to be a must! Since Dice Size must to be somehow improved, Strenght seems to be not so important and, therefore, reducing the evil MAD. Like Half-Giants, they also have some extra psionic abilities and 2 extra power points. It has been said that this race was made for monks! Level Adjustment +2.
* Third option is Human for extra feat if (and only if) the build is feat-hunger. Mongrelfolk is ugly as hell, but +4 to Constitution is cool. Level Adjustment +0.
So to choose the right race, I'd like to know a few things:
1- Is Powerful Build mandatory to achieve maximum boost to unarmed damage?
2 - If not, which one seems better? Powerful Build or +6 to Dextery and +2 to Wisdom?
3 - One or two levels of Level Adjustment is too heavy to a build with multiple class/PrC or the benefits are worthy?
===> Step 2: Choosing the Classes
Ok, here we go to the hardest (or at least one of the hardest) parts of this build: To chose the optimal classes and Prestige Classes. Sohere comes some questions:
- The Type of Monk: Monk Vs Chaotic Monk
Chaotic Monks allows multi-classing with Barbarians (and I saw some people suggesting few Barbarian levels - one level, if I recall correctly, although I don't remember why - to the build. Is that worthy? If not, I think normal Monks are fine.
Another question is: How much Monk levels? I saw several articles saying that 2 Monk levels are optimal. Others say it's ok to go up to 6. My DM says I should take 4 Monk levels for a better BAB. Which one is better?
- The Psionic Class: Psionic Warrior Vs Ardent
Psionics seems to have a great synergy with Monks.
My first guide mentioned Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken as a good way to fix monks. But later I found many saying that Psionic Warrior makes a much better job. But then I found others saying that Ardent is much better than Psionic Warriors.
After all, which one is more powerful? Psionic Warriors or Ardents? And Why?
Just to remember: I'm looking for a dedicated melee/close range combatant. The goal is to punch and kick for good!
- Other Prestige Classes...
The build will be basically a Monk x/Psionic Class y level, with maybe +1 or +2 Level Adjustment and other PrCs. Some ideas of PrC are...
Fist of the Forest: People say this class is great for monks. It increase Dice Size and has only 3 levels! Is it worhy to take all three levels or just one or two?
Swordsage, unarmed: Despite having "sword" on it's name, it seems to be a good option even unarmed. Some said 1 or 2 levels are good choices. Really?
Fighter: More feats! Yet, it's still another class level. Really worthy?
Warshaper: It requires some shapeshift ability. I'm not so interest in this one, but people say this PrC rocks, despite they don't agree if level 2 or 4 is optimal. Is this a good idea to a Monk/Psionic build?
Argent Fist: I don't know why. In a glance, it seems to be a Monk/Paladin combination, which is not the case here. Any clue?
Although the character will be level 15, I want a build up to level 20. If possible, I'd appreciate to know the reaons why you suggest each class/PrC and the best order/sequence to take each one.
And I don't expect to take all this PrC. I'm just listing options I've found on guides and forums.
===> Step 3: Choosing the Feats
I have no idea of how much feats I'll take, but I have some ideas:
Monastic Training and Tashalatora are mandatory here. So is Stunning Fist and Improved Natural Attack (although one guide said this feat isn't so great because you can buy an item that does the same and they don't stack, so I'm still wondering if I should take it).
Speaking about Stunning Fist, I saw somewhere saying that Pain Touch is awesome and that it's totally insane not to take it if you have Stunning Fist. Pharaoh's fist is good to stun multiple oponents. What do you think?
Snap kick. Extra Attack. Really great, right?
Martial Stance and Martial Study. After all, this character is supposed to be a martial artist. One guide said these feats are great for any monk. Is that true?
Extra Stunning: Extra Stunning is always great, but I wonder if there aren't other better feats to take.
Other feats suggested are: Flying kick, Combat acrobat, Powerful Charge, Decisive Strike and Knock-Down (requires Strenght 15 and Improved Trip, so I'm not so sure if it fits this build). Any coments?
Styles: They also affects the feat list, so it's a very important choice. I'm still unsure about Cobra Striker, Sleeping Tiger or Passive Way. I like Sleeping Tiger for Githzerai race (since it gives Weapon Finess), but it requires Power Attack, which makes me wonder what the hell were they thinking to ask a not-full BAB class to take Power Attack after all.
At last, I'd appreciate some advices about best itens to have. The character has 200.000 PO to spend.
I apologize for this huge post. I didn't mean to do that, but I had no choice. As I said, I read a lot of guides and they just made my head full of questions. I appreciate your time and attention to read and reply it.
Thanks in advance.
Unarmed Swordsage is strictly better at being a monk than Monk at EVERY level, even if all you want is unarmed damage. The best way to use Monk is to use Tashalatora to stop using monk.
Be advised that "highest possible unarmed damage" is pittance - Power Attack is the true source of melee damage in 3.5, and it does not work well with the one-handed nature of monk unarmed strikes. You can make the damage dice do something nice for you if you use Vampiric Claw (say, as a monk 2 / psychic warrior 18 tashalatora build) or similar things that specifically reference the base damage, but that's really about it.
Also, don't forget that you can get something like +20 effective levels for monk damage pretty easily - Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk's Belt + Monk's Tattoo = unarmed damage from a 12th level monk right there.
Firstly, I would say go read something to do with Monks. There are other Monk guides I think, which may even be better, but that one was right there at the top of the threads list coincidentally.
I didn't read everything you wrote but I did notice the races. Half-Giant should not be giving you a size increase for unarmed strike. It's still useful for trip and stuff maybe, but look at Goliath too. Githzerai is cool and all but probably not worth the LA (though you should be able to have bought it off by now). Dex-based is generally harder to do than Str-based, and those relying more on a high base unarmed damage is going to lend itself more easily to that, I think you'll still find it an uphil struggle.
For the record, if you were able to stack +12 effective levels onto a L8 Monk and get 2d10 base unarmed strike, it's pretty easy to get it to at least 6d8 (one size increase plus INA). On average, you're doing 20 points more damage than a Greatsword. Your lower BAB equates to 4 lost from Power Attack (two-handed, but without multipliers... that could be increased with e.g. Leap Attack of course) and you're losing any further PA and half your Str bonus from not two-handing either (at L8, at most 6 from PA). Your overall damage is still pretty good though, actually (even if you are splashing 13k on a belt and so forth). Of course, at L15 this will no longer be the case as plain Monk damage caps out at 2d10.
I see you made 2 tashalora monks builds: One with Psywarrior and another with Ardent. Which one is better, combat-wise, in your view?
Do you think Unarmed Swordsage is more powerful than Tashalatora monks?
If so, would it be cross-classing (for instance, Fist of the Forest would be a good option?) or just pure Swordsage? What about races? If you can give me some details or show me some links, I'd appreciate.
The_Fred
As I said in the previous post, I read some guides (and I'm still reading others, like this one!). About Powerful Build, it seems to have some controversy among players, since some say "Yes" and others say "No". The DM said yes, it does improve size for unarmed damage purpose. However, I look at the D&D 3.5 FAQ and it says a big "No". So, if the DM answer is "Yes", do you think that Half-Giants are a good choice? What about Githzerai? Do you think the +2 LA would be too bad for an optimized Tashalatora Monk/Psionic? Which one is more powerful in your opinion? Ardents or Psionic Warriors?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
That link shows what I'm talking about. You'll get your Unarmed damage maxed out as per any ol' Monk build, then any chance you get you'll use Decive Strike to deal a double damage single strike, after which you can do something silly like Dancing Mongoose for another two attacks at your highest base attack bonus that do just as much damage. By level 16 you can even do Raging Mongoose for 4 attacks this way. Robilar's Gambit's also a must so you may want to see about working in something with full Base Attack Bonus (War Mind is cool cause you also get Sweeping Strike) and making up lost Monk levels with a Monks belt or Improved Unarmed Strike.
You'll be using Power Attack of course to basically do *2 Power Attacks just like a standard Two Handed Weapon would. If you're okay with using a Quarterstaff you can actually be doing basically *4 power attacks.
About Powerful Build, it seems to have some controversy among players, since some say "Yes" and others say "No". The DM said yes, it does improve size for unarmed damage purpose.
The Half-Giant says you may wield larger weapons... however, your unarmed strike is inherant. I can see the case for it, as it's not unfair if your weapon dice would increase too, but the way it's written it says nothing about UAS or natural weapons. However, if your DM allows it, and it's applied after the Monk increases (which it naturally should) then it may be worth it as you can really crank up the damage (I'm not sure it can go beyond 12d8, mind, but that's 54 damage average which is not bad). Generally LA is not a good idea. However, if you're allowed to buy it off, you'll only be 3k XP behind everyone else and that's at L15.
True. Unarmed swordsage is better than Monk 99.9% of the time. The only time monk is better is when using Tashalatora.
Or when using Flurry (or Decisive Strike), or Stunning Fist. The Unarmed Swordsage is better, but it's not the same thing; it's not "strictly" better, if you will. If you just want the theme of a Monk, go for Unarmed Swordsage and be done with it. It's perfectly possible to be an actual Monk, if you really want to do that, though.
I forgot that some people on these boards don't seem to have the mental capacity to process stuff beyond "Monk bad, go play Swordsage!"
The SS may have better options than the Monk. It can't do all the same things, though. It might be able to do things which are better than Stunning Fist, but if - for whatever reason - you actually wanted to use Stunning Fist, only a Monk is going to do that pre-L8 and only a Monk is going to get any number of uses per day of it. Do you actually know what "strictly better" means? I'm guessing not.
Uh, no. 54 is, like, level 6 damage.
Firstly, that's 54 base damage. That doesn't include enhancements, Str, etc etc etc, and whilst those boosts will certainly be higher on a non-Monk, the Monk would get some of them still. Secondly, that's available to the Monk at what, ~L8? At L15 you run into the problem that his base damage caps out.
It's perfectly possible to be an actual Monk, if you really want to do that, though.
No it really isn't. Well, unless you're talking about copying my 9s fighter build onto a monk and calling it ascetic mojo, in which case go for it, but that's not the monk that's doing any of the heavy lifting. Or light lifting. Or doing anything but standing there drinking lemonade and being a prick while the rest of the build does the work to make it powerful.
Almost there.
This is how you to play a Monk:
Step 1: Write "Monk" on your sheet where it says "Class"
Step 2: Fill in the rest of the blanks
Step 3: Play
Nobody said you wouldn't suck. With some optimisation, you can actually make yourself suck a lot less. You may still suck (especially at L15) but all I said was it were possible to play a Monk, not that the Monk itself were actually doing any of the "lifting", necessarily. If someone's really wants to play a Monk, I'm not going to tell them not to. They ought to know what they're letting themselves in for before deciding that, but by all means, they should go ahead. Who knows? Maybe the rest of the party is Core-only naff Fighters and bad Wizards, in which case the Monk might even have a chance to "shine".
B) In the words of Dalton, "Be nice."
However, Exalted is second only to D&D in the amount of complaints you see directed towards it. D&D gets the hate for having such a stranglehold on the industry; Exalted gets it for, well... honestly, just play it and youll see.
(Exalted is not my personal style of non-WotC game, though it did inspire a favorite: Legends of the Wulin.)
By "Monk", I mean "Martial Artist Combatant", not exactly D&D monk. That's why any combination works fine for me, as long he is punching and kicking.
So here comes some ideas:
1) Tashalatora Monk 2/Psychic Class 18 (Psychic Warrior or Ardent? I just don't know);
2) Unarmed Swordsage (Swordsage 20? Monk 2/Swordsage 18? Any other exotic combination?)
3) Monk 2/Warmind 10 + 8 left classes/PrC (Many said Warmind (10), Fist of the Forest (3)and Warshape (2 ~4) are good choices)
Ok, so here's my question: Which one is the most powerful? I'd appreciate to know the details, if possible.
Again, I don't care about classes names!! I don't care if it's a straight full-monk, if it's psionic with a black-belt in Karate or a guy that should use swords but one day decided to use his fists. What I want is to be a primary combatant that use martial arts to fight bare handed.
About races, the DM told me he will NOT allow me to buy off the LA, so I'll chose a race with LA +0 (maybe that ugly humans with +4 Constitution and huge penalty to Charisma).
Thanks in advance.
Anyhow, as far as psychic warrior versus ardent, ardent's higher level powers are without question stronger than what a psychic warrior gets. If you're allowed Mind's Eye content, then it becomes even less of a contest. However, I happen to have a soft spot in my heart for psychic warriors for whatever reason, and I've never really liked the ardent, so I'll recommend you to play a psychic warrior even if it's inferior. If nothing else, seven bonus feats certainly won't hurt to have on a melee character, since many melee combos are fairly feat-intensive. They don't make up for the ardent's access to high-level powers and metapower shenanigans, but if all you want to do is punch things, they help.
Regarding unarmed damage, as was mentioned, even with high base damage, you'll run into some issues. That being said, if you do want a fun way of maximizing your monk's damage......
- Get up to the 12d8 base damage referenced earlier.
- Take some sort of dragonmark. It doesn't really matter. Making is probably the most versatile if you want to invest in it, but any of the human dragonmarks have their uses. It doesn't matter, though - take an aberrant dragonmark if you want. You don't need anything more than the least mark anyhow.
- Take the Dragonmark Fist feat. This allows you to spend an action point to maximize the damage on a single unarmed strike.
- Take the Decisive Strike ACF.
- Find a way to get access to the Unfettered Heroism spell. This gives you an action point every round.
- Combine Dragonmark Fist with Decisive Strike for 192 points of damage before other variables. That's not bad, but it's not great, either - CR 20 enemies have an average of around 440 HP, IIRC, so you're not even 2HKOing them. But wait a second - notice that Dragonmark Fist doesn't specify that it only maximizes your base damage. It will actually maximize any variable damage from that attack you have, whether it's elemental damage or sneak attack damage or what have you.
- Don't forget to follow up with a Snap Kick attack! That follow-up attack won't be maximized, but damage will still be doubled from Decisive Strike.
This isn't game-breaking by any means, but it's pretty easy to use this to consistently get above the 440 HP benchmark each round if you stack on additional dice of damage. Sure, chargers have been doing this since level 10 or so, but hey, sometimes you've got to take what you can get. Note that this does NOT require any real investment in monk (the only actual monk feature required is Decisive Strike, which is available at level 1 and also easily replaceable), so you could do this as an unarmed swordsage or a tash ardent/monk or a barbarian/fist of the forest or whatever you decide to go with.
Besides, Street Fighter isn't an RPG; it's a fighting game.
Wait they made a video game?
By "Monk", I mean "Martial Artist Combatant", not exactly D&D monk. That's why any combination works fine for me, as long he is punching and kicking.
...
Ok, so here's my question: Which one is the most powerful? I'd appreciate to know the details, if possible.
You could just go straight manifester with Claws of the Beast, or hell, Cleric. Buffs like Righteous Might and Divine Power are probably more useful to you, and you could DMM them. If you really want unarmed strikes you can even take Sup Unarmed Strike [ToB] and buff it through other means.
If you're creative, you can flavour a Wizard as a Monk, for crying out loud (those spells are just manifestations of spiritual ki energy, and by martial arts, he uses the ancient Turn-Into-A-Giant-And-Hit-People Style otherwise known as giantfist-jutsu).
Race: Human
Unarmed Swordsage 1 Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand) *Be sure to get Sudden Leap
Monk 1 Improved Grapple (Also take Decisive Strike ACF)
Monk 2 Weapon Finesse (I'd usually never reccomend this but you'll be Dex SAD), Combat Reflexes
Unarmed Swordsage 2+++
Feats at additional levels
6 Power Attack
9 Snap Kick
12 Roundabout Kick
15 Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
18 Robilar's Gambit
Maneuvers: You'll focus on Maneuvers that give you improved mobility (for Swift Action, preferably) and or additional attacks/multipliers. Look at stuff like Ruby Nightmare Blade, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, Quicksilver Motion, Rapid Counter, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Diamond Nightmare Blade.
Rules stuff: A conservative Reading of how Decisive Strike will work if you say Belt of Battle to move, Decisive Strike and then Diamond Nightmare Blade is that you'll deal 2 times normal Unarmed Strike damage and then another 5 times it. That's not as good though as Decisive Strike and then Raging Mongoose when you can do that.
Gear: Again, be sure to get a Belt of Battle and a Fanged Ring. An item of persistant Enlarge Person is a good job to get as well. Polymorph of course is even more insane if you can turn into something big and bashy but I don't think that's your style from what I'm seeing.
If you don't want to do Weapon Finesse and I don't blame you, you'll lose some AOO's per round and you'll lose some AC but you can instead take Extra Readied Maneuver which is pretty nice.
SACRED FIST. But if your dm doesn't limit Arcane Strike the Enlighten fist is better. Or if you want just pure dps. I see different is cleric are buffers and wizard/sorc at the dps side choice is yours.
monk
monk
monk if 12 cha pick destruction devotion out of Complete Champion
monk Replace ki strike with holy strike Complete Champion
Cleric Lawful good. Drop one Domain for Law devotion, Select War domain.
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist Holy Warrior complete Complete Champion. Keep your 5th level or 4th level domain slot unused for +4 or +5 damage. Cast Divine power and rightoues might for increase str and size.
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
The Sacred Fist
You will be able to cast Caster level 10 5th level spells and have the bab of 14 level fighter. Assumes that DM followers the rule the text overrides table. Text says it grants you spell casting
I like this build because it give you high pluses on your attack from the str bonus. Also you need a quick fix of ac or attack you can do law devotion. If you fighting something that most can't hit destruction devotion will lower for you and all over time making better for all to hit.
You still have most of your feats. To do with has you wish. Power Attack can be nice if you fight alot of single big things.
Also I like the lesser planettouched from www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/ind...
topic=6992.0
Zenythri
Chaond
If for some reason your dm lets you be very very broken. Dragon spawn from Dragonlance, but that is a hard sell(being your white dragon would have to be law good for it to work) Helm of alignment reversal only thing I can think of.
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Well I like the two good saves, the full casting and full bab assuming dm allot text to over rull the table.
Your sample build does not have a BAB high enough to enter this class. You need +4, and thanks to stacking two medium BAB classes, you've got +3.
You will be much better served with something like Cleric 4/Monk 2, but even still you probably should just not do that.
Full BAB is granted to 99% of clerics thanks to divine power. Full casting is granted to 99% of clerics, provided they don't prestige out (like your build. The difference between two good saves for 10 levels and poor saves for 10 levels is +4 to some saves. Not worth it at all.
A) Monk 2/Psionic Warrior 18
B) Monk 2/Ardent 18
C) Monk 2/Fist of Zuoken (Psionic Fist) 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 4/Swordsage 1
D) Monk 2/Warmind 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 4/Swordsage 1
E) Swordsage 20 (or Monk 2/Swordsage 18)
I've heard that while Fist of Zuoken/Psionic Fist makes a good job to fix the Monk class, it's still weaker than Psionic Warrior. And that Ardents are stronger than Psionic Warriors. Is that true?
What about the C and D builds? Are they still weaker than Ardents?
Is the option B stronger than E?
I don't know if I got it right, but Monks/Ardents looks like Jedi Knights without lightsaber. That's it?
Is 12d8 the maximum legal damage a unarmed fighter can do in D&D 3.5?
Can Psionic Warriors or Ardent somehow increase their Strenght or BAB? Or high Dextery and and Weapon Finess makes a better option to reduce MAD?
Thanks in advance.
The primary advantage of E or a build similar to it is that you function on no buff time. You can by level 15 do something like the following in a round.
Move: Travel up to your speed,
Swft: Belt of Battle (Full Round Action),
Full Round Action: Decisive Strike (Double normal unarmed strike damage)
Free Action: Snap Kick (Moderately less than double normal unarmed strike damage)
Standard Action: Ruby Nightmare Blade (Tripple your normal unarmed strike damage, conservatively)
Free Action: Snap Kick (as above)
* Roundabout Kick whenever you score a crit (even against crit immune targets) and deal double Unarmed Damage again
** AOO a lot, for double unarmed damage
at 18 you get AOO's whenever you're attacked in melee
Is this build anything compared to a Tashlatora Ardent? Not really, but it's a lot less work to play. Attack routines are simple and devistating, you also amplify incoming buffs well. Attacks like Decisive Strike and Ruby Nightmare Blade work really well against targets that have Flame Shield or Carapace (Tarrasque) or any similar damage aura on hit. Raging Mongoose opens up at 16 and if you start your turn adjacent to some poor bastard they eat up to 5 attacks before getting into AOO's.
At the beginning, most of the entries (myself included) focused on how to circumvent the challenge's limitations - using everything from psionics infinite recharge loops to PAO tricks to Candle of Invocation abuse to ignore the 17 levels of monk entirely. But, as the contest progressed, people began trying more and more to make actual monk builds that could handle the challenge.
It's still a fairly high-op contest, with a lot of ordinarily frowned upon tactics totally fine (such as Dark Chaos Feat Shuffling, something Tippy explicitly said he doesn't think is cheesy as long as you're not shuffling away temporary feats), but it's fun to read through to see how all the different builds approached the challenge. For example, here's Xervous' entry (sorry about the formatting snafus, this forum doesn't play nice with BBCode it seems):
"I'm back, and The Monk of Lawful Good WRATH is improved!
Reworked, now with around 130,000 gp unspent.
Melee monk
Flurry
+51/+51/+51/+51/+51/+51/+46/+46/+41
2d10 + 7d6 + 37 + 1d6/1d8(vs. evil, vs evil outsider/undead)
average damage, 72 vs. evil, 73 vs. outsider/undead
Can power attack for up to 13
Travel devotion can be swapped for knowledge devotion to get +5 to hit and +5 to damage against all elder evils, though I prefer travel here with his 130ft fly speed and 100ft land speed when his boots are active.
Complacent Human (Dragon 320)
11 monk, 2 saint, 4 shou disciple, 2 tattooed monk, 1 shiba protector
Show
- AC 74, Touch 73. Elder evils can only hit on nat 20s
- +38 Will save. Passes all save on 2’s or is flat out immune
- +34 Reflex save. Passes all but two saves on 2’s. Of those two abilities, one does negligible damage and the other is a suicidal move on the Elder Evil’s part.
- +31 fort save. Passes all but one save on 2’s, passes that last save on 3’s
- Pride domain + tattooed monk: now 1/8000 chance of failing a single save. After that, you’ve got a 1/400 chance of failing saves.
- Freedom of Movement: No grapples
- Mind blank. Because yeah.
- Belt of battle double full attack downs all but 2 elder evils in one round.
- immunity to dispel magic through saint Su, and dispel magic, greater through spellblade.
- 1/day use of ring of spell battle to redirect one spell that I identify. If the room is big enough, this is 1/day save my ass from disjunction (and screw over the caster).
- Perfectly capable of fighting all the elder evils back to back without refreshing abilities
With 11 monk, 2 saint, 4 shou disciple, 2 tattooed monk, 1 shiba protectorCon of 19 (8+2+2+2+5) +2 item, +2 saint, alchemical, tomes
I was wondering: How this guy did survive so long as a primary melee class up to level 20 with Constitution 8? How he did in his first levels?
This might to be a great build, but it seems to be one of those "impracticable builds", just like the character was born level 20. Our DM hates this kind of build.
Sure, I really want a build that gives maximum unarmed damage possible, where "possible" means that while making munchkin combos, they should work in game from level 1 to level 20.
I'll take a look at that topic, page per page. Anyway, your approach...
Here's my own entry, although it's incomplete (I didn't finish kitting it out), which heavily relies on DCFS cheese:Vecna-blooded Necropolitan Elf, Monk 8/Psionic Fist 10/Conjurer 1
Ok... What about this:
Monk 4/Psionic Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 2/Swordsage 1
I consider that "Psionic Fist" and "Fist of the Forest" qualify as "Monkish PrC", right? In my case, without the requirement of 17 monkish levels, I could think about this:
Monk 2/Psionic Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 4/Swordsage 1
Many people said that it's worthless to take more than 2 levels as monk. They also said that Psionic Fist is inferior if comparad with Psionic Warrior, but some builds are made using then. And many people recomend 3 levels in Fist of the Forest, 2~4 levels in Warshape and 1~2 levels in Swordsage.
Even yet, is this build still weaker than Tashalatora Psionic Warrior or Ardent or Unarmed Swordsage?
And I must to confess that I'm still surprised: So Monk 2/Ardent 18 (or Psionic Warrior) are really more powerfull than Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 18 (or Swordsage 20)? If so, I'll try this Monk/Psionic build.
I'm confused: Many players say that Ardents are more powerful than Psionic Warriors. But some players says that Monk/Psionic Warriors makes a much better fighter (in the real meaning of the word, not in D&D sense) than Ardents. As I said in my first post, I'd like to create a character that works as primary melee class! So, if Tashalatora Monk/Psionic is the best option, which one should I take? Monk 2/Psionic Warrior 18 or Monk 2/Ardent 18?
Thanks in advance.
I was wondering: How this guy did survive so long as a primary melee class up to level 20 with Constitution 8? How he did in his first levels?This might to be a great build, but it seems to be one of those "impracticable builds", just like the character was born level 20. Our DM hates this kind of build.
Well, this was specifically a contest to make an ECL 20 build that could solo all the encounters in the Elder Evils book, so coming up through the levels was probably not the biggest concern for Xervous. That being said, the Saint template gives several defensive bonuses and fast healing, and bumps his Con up to 10, so that probably helps a fair bit.
Ok... What about this:Monk 4/Psionic Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 2/Swordsage 1
I consider that "Psionic Fist" and "Fist of the Forest" qualify as "Monkish PrC", right? In my case, without the requirement of 17 monkish levels, I could think about this:
Monk 2/Psionic Fist 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshape 4/Swordsage 1
Many people said that it's worthless to take more than 2 levels as monk. They also said that Psionic Fist is inferior if comparad with Psionic Warrior, but some builds are made using then. And many people recomend 3 levels in Fist of the Forest, 2~4 levels in Warshape and 1~2 levels in Swordsage.
Even yet, is this build still weaker than Tashalatora Psionic Warrior or Ardent or Unarmed Swordsage?
And I must to confess that I'm still surprised: So Monk 2/Ardent 18 (or Psionic Warrior) are really more powerfull than Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 18 (or Swordsage 20)? If so, I'll try this Monk/Psionic build.
I'm confused: Many players say that Ardents are more powerful than Psionic Warriors. But some players says that Monk/Psionic Warriors makes a much better fighter (in the real meaning of the word, not in D&D sense) than Ardents. As I said in my first post, I'd like to create a character that works as primary melee class! So, if Tashalatora Monk/Psionic is the best option, which one should I take? Monk 2/Psionic Warrior 18 or Monk 2/Ardent 18?
Thanks in advance.
How exactly are you qualifying for Psionic Fist in all of these builds? It requires BAB +4 and 9 ranks in Concentration, plus Still Mind. The earliest you can qualify for it is ECL 6, with at least three of those levels being monk levels.
Also, Warshaper doesn't do much for you unless you have a reliable means of changing shape, preferably one that is more or less permanent. It opens up some nice benefits, sure, but only when you're in a new form.
As for Psionic Fist versus psychic warrior, yeah, psywar is strictly better. But Psionic Fist is a far cry better than straight monk. Also, in the contest I linked to, it was required that you take either monk or a class that progresses monk features, and progressing via Tashalatora or the Ascetic feats was explicitly ruled to NOT count. Under those rules, Psionic Fist became a lot better.
Anyhow, I'm not sure why you're surprised that a Monk 2/Ardent 18 is more powerful than, say, an unarmed swordsage, a psychic warrior, or whatever. High level ardents can pick up powers like Bend Reality, Greater Teleport, Timeless Body, Hypercognition, Time Regression, Temporal Acceleration, Mass Time Hop, and a whole host of powers more. Those are just a few things that an ardent can get that your typical psywar CAN'T pick up (typically because they're too high level for him to nab with EK), and of course leave out a ton of other excellent powers. There's very little that, say, an unarmed swordsage can do to compare to much of this, despite the fact that unarmed swordsage is a pretty solid class choice.
Regarding which class does melee better, well, they both do it fairly well. As I mentioned before, I like psychic warriors more than I like ardents, but that's more a question of personal preference - ardents are strictly the stronger class. I guess it really depends on what you actually want to do. I mean, OK, you want to be a good melee martial artist. Great. What do you actually envision your character doing? If it's something that requires long feat chains, go psywar. If it's something that involves bending and shaping the world around you, go ardent.
We can also help you better if you describe precisely what you want your character to be capable of. You can make a halfway decent martial artist out of just about any class (even straight monk, although it's difficult :P). But when you sit down and play this character, what kind of options do you envision? What do you want him to be capable of? How do you want to deal with various threats? The more specific you are, the more we can help you.
If your dm hates builds that seem born at 20 why come to char op? The process of optimizing a character before use is very important if you want a strong character. Otherwise even a simple skillpoint could throw off presteige entry or a feat and bump it up levels higher then normal. If your dm doesn't like a build designed for 20, or one layed out already then you don't really need to optimize since he will just hate it more.
I certainly hate builds that are "born at 20" even if that is the level many characters plan their builds out to. I believe it is one thing to have an idea how something should look at 20th-level but it should be playable, and even adjustable, along the way.
Perhaps everyone thinks they need every single skill point, feat, class, and even spell and magic item throught out before they begin playing but that is just overkill. Should you have an idea what those things could/should be? Yes. Should they be inevitable targets that must be hit regardless of what is actually happening in game? No. While I believe in having a plan I also believe there should be room in that plan for other things that aren't entirely focused on one thing.
Looking at Ardent, they seems to be the Wizards (maybe a little less versatile) among psionic classes. Yet, it seems that while they can reach higher levels of Psionic Power, they doesn't have access to powers like Expansion, Claw of the Vampire and Strenght of my enemy.
So how can Ardents use their psionic power to improve their melee combat ability? Is that really so different than Psionic Warriors?
Looking at Ardent, they seems to be the Wizards (maybe a little less versatile) among psionic classes..
The real psionic "wizard" would probably be the erudite, or the psion if you want a more basic equivalent.
The "Born 20" issue is not of my complain. And it's not the main subject here.
Looking at Ardent, they seems to be the Wizards (maybe a little less versatile) among psionic classes. Yet, it seems that while they can reach higher levels of Psionic Power, they doesn't have access to powers like Expansion, Claw of the Vampire and Strenght of my enemy.
So how can Ardents use their psionic power to improve their melee combat ability? Is that really so different than Psionic Warriors?
Expanded Knowledge is absolutely your friend here. It's one of the nice things about psionics, and it really serves to make the system very modular.
Anyhow, looking at mantles for buffs and other useful melee options, we've got...
CONFLICT
Metaphysical Weapon, Offensive Prescience, Psionic Lion's Charge, Dimension Slide, Immovability, Graft Weapon, Spirit of War
DECEPTION
Concealing Amorpha, Bend Reality
DESTRUCTION
Dissipating touch, dissolving touch, dissolving weapon
ELEMENTS
Earth walk, adapt body, blackstone hammer
EVIL
Protection from good, planar apotheosis, planar embrace
FATE
Defensive precog, offensive precog, greater precog, fate of one
FORCE
Force screen, deflection field
FREEDOM
Dimension hop, hustle, fly, freedom of movement
GOOD
Protection from evil, planar apotheosis, planar embrace
GUARDIAN
Thicken skin, iron body
JUSTICE
Perfect riposte
LAW
Grip of iron, hammer, immovability, steadfast perception, iron body, timeless body
LIFE
Body purification, mend wounds, true metabolism
NATURAL WORLD
Metaphysical claw, animal affinity, metamorphosis
PHYSICAL POWER
Adrenaline boost, vigor, animal affinity, graft weapon, psychofeedback, true metabolism
TIME
Anticipatory strike, temporal acceleration, mass time hop, time regression
I didn't list every useful power, just what a quick scan of CPsi suggested might be useful for a monkish character. Many of these would actually be pretty silly to take. My point is more that you can actually build a pretty good monkish character with just these powers. Nab EK for some particularly juicy others, such as expansion, strength of my enemy or share pain, and you're golden.
(And if your DM allows substitute powers as per this mind's eye ACF, you may not even need EK...)
Am I wrong or Expansion is the greatest of Psionic Warrior's power? Claw of Vampire seems good too.
I sent an e-mail the DM, asking if he will accept the Mind's Eyes upgrade. If so, that will be a better ideia to take Monk 2/Ardent 18. If not, I'll have to use Expanded Knowledge.
Am I wrong or Expansion is the greatest of Psionic Warrior's power? Claw of Vampire seems good too.
The psychic warrior list has a lot of great powers on it - just about everything a warrior could ask for. (Some of my favorites: Expansion, Strength of My Enemy, Dimension Slide, Hustle (as a level 2 power), Power Weapon, Inconstant Location, Form of Doom, and so on.) DisposableHero's Psycarnum Warrior build in my signature shows just how amazing several of those are, by concentrating on buff effects and finding a way to get them all online all the time at full augment. Basically, that list is their greatest class feature.
However, the universal problem with the psychic warrior - the limiting factor you have to consider that keeps them from being the single best warrior class ever - is that their power points are kind of low, especially at low levels. Cunning (or cheesy) use of equipment can circumvent this - a quiver of manifester arrows is the usual example of something that busts that restriction, but is likely to be banned or patched - but otherwise you have to be extremely frugal with your power points, even moreso than other psionic characters. (New players to psionics tend to manifest nothing but fully-augmented powers all the time, which means they tend to run low on power points by the second or third encounter daily and are completely out by the fourth.)
... just about everything a warrior could ask for.
That's what I'm looking for.
As far as I can see, Ardent seems to be powerful and versatile, so that's why I compared them with Wizards.
What I expect is this: To be a very respectable melee combatant and to have some supernatural abilities (e.g.: to teleport in combat and blast enemies. Area of Effect damage would be nice too). If it's possible to do that, it's alright. I prefer to be a warrior with some spellcasting than to be a spellcaster with some melee ability.
I really want to play an Ardent because the seem to be powerful, but it feels like they lack the abilities to be primary melee characteres. Some players seems to think the same.
In any case, I'm still new to D&D and I have a lot of things to learn. That's why I'm looking for tips.
DisposableHero's Psycarnum Warrior build in my signature shows just how amazing several of those are, by concentrating on buff effects and finding a way to get them all online all the time at full augment. Basically, that list is their greatest class feature.
Can you please give me more details (or a link) about this build?
As far as I can see, Ardent seems to be powerful and versatile, so that's why I compared them with Wizards.
Ardents are usually more compared to clerics (relatively sturdy chassis, access to themed powers, comparatively unique access to healing, emphasis on buffs but not limited to buffs); psions are comparable to sorcerers and the erudite is the analogue of the wizard. Wilders and psychic warriors are unique among manifesters in that there isn't a clear core analogue. (Psywars are sometimes compared to duskblades, but they play totally differently - psywars are all about buffing and using powers as tactical support, while duskblades are about using melee to support their damage spells.)
The thing to note with psionics in general, but ardents in particular, is that they may have the raw power and versatility as a class, but an individual character will not have that same ability. Just as a sorcerer has access to every wizard spell but can only learn a few, really. Ardents in particular are limited because they don't have a "class power list" - meaning, for example, if an ardent found a dorje or a psicrown, he couldn't use it unless the power inside was on one of his mantles. (Normally, say, a sorcerer could pick up any staff with sorcerer/wizard spells and use it just fine. Psions and wilders can do something similar, provided the power is on the Psion/Wilder list (instead of one of the discipline-specific lists that the character in question can't access). Ardents don't have a general list - for instance, if they wanted to use the Psicrown of the Astral Legion (XPH), they'd need either the Creation mantle or Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct).)
What I expect is this: To be a very respectable melee combatant and to have some supernatural abilities (e.g.: to teleport in combat and blast enemies. Area of Effect damage would be nice too). If it's possible to do that, it's alright. I prefer to be a warrior with some spellcasting than to be a spellcaster with some melee ability.
Be advised that blasting really, really, really sucks in 3.5. If you like numbers-based arguments, consider that most damage effects scale at 1d6 (average 3.5) per level, up to some particular cap, but only if the target fails their save. Meanwhile, targets continue to get better and better saving throws / resistances / immunities, tend to gain more than 3.5 hit points per CR, and can continue to act while damaged. In 3.5, the only hit point that matters is the last one.
I really want to play an Ardent because the seem to be powerful, but it feels like they lack the abilities to be primary melee characteres. Some players seems to think the same.
1) If you want to play it, then play an ardent! They're perfectly capable of carrying their own weight and then some, although they do take some finesse to build properly due to their primary/secondary mantle power concerns.
2) I would disagree with that sentiment. Right from the start, ardents were declared a "psi-gish in a can!" and that has stood the test of time. They lend themselves better to pure manifesting, sure, but they can still beat face with the best of them if you pick the right mantles.
3) That said, the psychic warrior will outshine the ardent in that area. (However, the psywar cannot outshine the ardent in pure manifesting, which can take many different forms.)
DisposableHero's Psycarnum Warrior build in my signature shows just how amazing several of those are, by concentrating on buff effects and finding a way to get them all online all the time at full augment. Basically, that list is their greatest class feature.
Can you please give me more details (or a link) about this build?
Did you disable forum signatures? If that's the case, all the builds "in my sig" are indexed here.
Don't agree with CJ on everything but Ii do have to second his statement of "DON'T!" when it comes to Sacrid Fist. The PRC's ill concieved blend of Cleric and Monk just fails its way home.
The Sacred Fist is still better than the Monk by virtue of being a Cleric. You don't even need Monk levels to enter, but it depends how later you're willing to go in. Monk 2/Cleric 4 would be the typical entry, but Monk 1/Cleric 6 works too (or Monk 1/Cleric 5 with fractionals). If your DM rules text over table, you end up with a Cleric who gives up one caster level to get full BAB for 10 levels, and a few Monk abilities. Worth it? Maybe not, but take one of the world's most solid classes, knock a casting level off it, and you still have something capable of pretty much everything the Monk isn't.
Many players say that Ardents are more powerful than Psionic Warriors. But some players says that Monk/Psionic Warriors makes a much better fighter (in the real meaning of the word, not in D&D sense) than Ardents.
Don't get too hung up on "which class is the most powerful", especially since there's a difference between how much power a class has an how much potential power it has. Wizards make some of the most powerful characters, and also some of the worst, depending on how you play them. Many of these ideas are quite different. One may be better overall, but that doesn't mean the other isn't viable, so there comes a point where you just have to run with something. By all means, squeeze some more optimisation out of that idea, but at the end of the day you're trying to make a theme-appropriate and flavourful character (or you could just go and play a straight caster).
As for Psionic Fist versus psychic warrior, yeah, psywar is strictly better.
Please go and look up the definition of "strictly better".
This guide consider STR the primary stat for most monks. I'm not sure about that because it seems - at least to me - that WIS or DEX are the most important stat, depending on what kind of build you're going to do and if so, Weapon Finess or Intuitive Attack reduces the effect of MAD. However, if we're talking about Psionic Monk (Ardent or Psionic Warrior) I think that WIS is, unquestionably, the primary attribute.
On the other hand, the attribute values are pretty decent, so I think that in this particular case, Weapon Finess or Intuitive Attack isn't so much important (if overall values were lower, I'd consider to take Intuitive Attack, considering WIS as the primary Stat), specially thanks to Expansion and Strenght of My Enemy. Expansion deserves a special note: Since it increases STR to +2 or +4 and decreases DEX to -2 or -4, so I'll consider STR the secondary attribute and try to find other ways to increase AC (although irrelevant because there're 2 "16", I think it would be worthy do the same with different values, so I'm just discussing the issue).
WIS > STR > DEX > CON > INT > CHAR (Please, feel free to criticize this sequence, despite the number presented here)
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 17
CHAR 10
NOTE: Since Expansion really hurts DEX, I'm thinking about WIS > STR > CON > DEX order. Does that sounds better? Or should I take a different sequence?
In any case, the DM allowed the Mind's Eyes options, so it might be a good chance to build an Monk 2/Ardent 13 (it's a level 15 character). That are the abilities I would like to have (numbered in the order of importance):
- Frontline combatant, sometimes using Stunning Fist/Pain Touch (and maybe Pharaoh's Fist to stun multiples oponents) to disable targets for 2 rounds while doing some respectable damage (Excpected feats: Stunning Fist, Pain Touch and Snap Kick. Decisive Strike seems to be a good choice, so if there's a room for it, I'd take it. Same to Pharaoh's Fist. I can buy a Fanged Ring, so I can skip Improved Natural Attack)
- Combat mobility through Teleport
- Some healing ability (NO ONE in the party heals! They're using magical itens to do that)
- One energy attack to hit enemies out of reach.
Using the Mind's Eyes options, can ardents take combative powers from Psionic Warriors (ex.: Expansion, Strenght of my Enemy, Vampiric Weapon)?
Since you seem to want to do the Psionic rout (not a bad one IMO), consider also the potency of using Sun School (Complete Warrior, tactical feat), Freezing the Life Blood (Complete Warrior general feat) and Death Blow (Complete Adventurere general feat). This combo along with a move action speed or faster teleport that doesn't prevent further action in the round means you can kill an opponent a round as long as you've got fuel for Freezing the Life Blood.
And yes if you're going Psy War or Psy Fist your primary attribute could be considered Wis but you won't suffer much if you make it Str with Wis/Con secondary.
One thing to remember with any caster is you only want to be using Spells/Powers with Hour/Level durations or those that are a swift action combat, if you primary job is to be a melee combat character. Otherwise you're doing effectively nothing on some turns and it will quickly become obvious how much that sucks.
Other than to qualify for Freezing the Lifeblood if that's what you're doing I'm inclined to agree with CJ on the Stunning Fist thing.
What about Passive Way and Knock-Down?
Stunning Fist is theoretically fine... except that to get the DC high enough to be effective, you've got to pretty much devote a ridiculous amount of resources to it. Then, after all that, you're left with the fact that lots of things are immune to stunning, especially considering how cheap Third Eyes are.
Freezing the Lifeblood is theoretically better because paralysis is more useful overall than stunning, except that it's harder to boost the DC competitively, it doesn't work on enemies immune to stunning, and it requires Stunning Fist as a base. At least Third Eyes can't shut it down, though.
EDIT: Actually, EK is less essential if you're allowed to substitute the powers in your mantles. Still probably not a bad idea, if you're playing it straight and not using it as an excuse to have a power list of "whatever I feel like."
So what's your suggestion to a Monk 2/Ardent 18?
Get Practiced Manifester. Take all 10 levels of Illithid Slayer. Play like the full caster you are. You have been allowed to completely tailor your list to your desires, so I suggest you use that. After that, it really plays itself.
The point is that I don't want to be a full caster. If I was, I'd probably make a Druid (I like shapeshifting).
My intention is to make a "Monk", a martial artist who fights unarmed.
There're three options:
A) Monk 2/Psionic Warrior 18
B) Monk 2/Ardent 18
C) Swordsage 20
Which one do you think is a better martial artist/unarmed fighter? And why?
Personally? If I were to build a monk 2/ardent 18, I would probably spend most of my available feats on Expanded Knowledge. I'd pop out periodically for Linked Power, Snap Kick, and maybe Improved Natural Attack or Sun School.
I think I can take a Ranged Ring, so I might skip Improved Natural Attack.
Sun School seems a decent choice, so It's on my list of considered feats.
EDIT: Actually, EK is less essential if you're allowed to substitute the powers in your mantles. Still probably not a bad idea, if you're playing it straight and not using it as an excuse to have a power list of "whatever I feel like."
In a Ardent X Psionic Warrior debate, most players just say "Go Ardent. They're more powerful". My choice would be Psionic Warrior because it seems they're better at buffing and whacking than Ardents. But the GM will allow Substitute Powers, so I'm wondering if I should choose Ardent over Psionic Warrior.
Out of the two, the Ardent can do anything the PsyWar can better.
So you mean that Ardents can be better warriors than Psionic Warriors?
I still have some serious problems to see what makes Ardents so much better than Psionic Warriors. Let's see:
PSIONIC WARRIORS
- Seven extra feats if compared with Ardents (IIRC);
- Access to really cool powers to use in hand-to-hand combat: Expansion (a must for Tashalatora Monks!); Strenght of My Enemy; Vampiric Blade (awesome combination for a 12d8 punch/kick damage), Intertial Armor (+4 to AC for 1 PP seems very respectable). I probably won't have it because I really don't like it (looks too freaky to me), but Form of Doom is an well-recomended option. So there're 4 cool powers here that Ardents don't have access and maybe there're others...
- Better Hit Die (D8)
ARDENTS
- More PP than Psionic Warriors;
- Higher Manifester Level than Psionic Warriors
One more time: The character role isn't meant to be a caster, but a primary melee warrior.
As a novice player, I may be understimating the power of reach a higher Manifester Level. I'm still reading tutorials and Handbooks on the web, so that's why it's so hard for me to make the right choice.
Ok, Ardent's has ACFs like Mind's Eyes Substitute Powers. And so Psionic Warriors have their own, namely, Mantled Warrior (Freedom Mantle seems to be the best choice here) and there's also the Tap Mantle feat, that give you access to another Mantle.
- So HERE IS MY DILEMMA: Can an Ardent with Sustitute Powers have access to all the Psionic Warrior's Top Powers? Or Psionic Warriors with Mantled Warrior and Tap Mantle makes a better gish character?
I apologize if I sounds too repetitive about this PsyWar X Ardent issue. I keep reading and re-reading this topic and Handbooks, but it's still a bit hard for me.
As was mentioned you're better off not bothering with blasting most of the time (almost all of the time), rather instead use powers that increase your mobility or limit your opponents, so that you can beat said opponent down with your badass buffed up self.
You'll just want to keep an eye on combat turns spent buffing because every turn you spend buffing is a turn you should have been spending beating face. So I drive home, Hour/Level powers and Swift action (or the rare Move Action, since Hustle can give you a Move for your Swift) powers are best for a Gish.
Ardent will be able to get access to all the best PsyWar powers that you'd be interested in, and not the other way around.
That's what I want to know for sure.
So, which are the best Psionic Warriors powers? And in which mantle(s) can I place them?
Another thing I was wondering: Isn't Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Ardent 16 a better deal than Monk 2/Ardent 18? There's a feat called Practiced Manifester. With that feat, the character would have 20 Manifester Levels. Level 18 Ardent would have 280 PP and 19 Powers Know, while level 16 would have 221 PP and 17 Powers Know. That means less 59 PP and 2 Powers Know.
Monk level would be 18, but that can be fixed.
And Swordsage level 2 would have 2 stances and 7 Know Maneuvers (from which 4 would be readied).
So this is the trade-off
59 PP + 2 Powers Know = 2 Stances + 7 Maneuvers.
Is that a good trade?
I also realize that there were 4 builds, which 3/4 were Psionic Warriors (although I saw the comment on the Psion/Egoist build)
The point is that I want to make a martial artist based character, just like my avatar suggests. That's why I'm thinking about the Swordsage X Tashalatora Monk, because both are very different in combat style.
I really liked the Illith Slayer. One option could be Monk 2/Ardent 8/Illith Slayer 10. But if I'm not wrong, that would require Monastic Training x2 and Tashalatora 2x to have 20 level monks for unarmed damage and Flurry of Blows. That said, I think I should stick with Monk 2/Ardent or Psionic Warrior 18.
I got your point about 9s. The point is that there are many awesome powers I'd like to include on my list:
Expansion (I can't even thinking a Tashalatora Monk without it! It's a must)
Inertial Armor
Strenght of My Enemy
Vampiric Blade
Hustle
Power Weapon
Now, how can I get all these powers as an Ardent?
CJ, I saw the King of Smack. He looks awesome.
I also realize that there were 4 builds, which 3/4 were Psionic Warriors (although I saw the comment on the Psion/Egoist build)
Okay, then what's the question?
The point is that I want to make a martial artist based character, just like my avatar suggests. That's why I'm thinking about the Swordsage X Tashalatora Monk, because both are very different in combat style.
First off, no, you really don't want a swordsage. An Idiot Crusader, yes, but Swordsage's maneuver recovery is too terrible.
I really liked the Illith Slayer. One option could be Monk 2/Ardent 8/Illith Slayer 10. But if I'm not wrong, that would require Monastic Training x2 and Tashalatora 2x to have 20 level monks for unarmed damage and Flurry of Blows. That said, I think I should stick with Monk 2/Ardent or Psionic Warrior 18.
Oh, boy. Where to start?
First off, you really don't need any of the monk abilities. They're dramatically overrated and aren't that important to a King of Smack. The numbers aren't impressive. Second, even if you were in dre need of full monk advancement, which, trust me, you're not, you could just take the Monk's Belt item and Superior Unarmed Strike. There, you've just added eight levels of monk.
Now, how can I get all these powers as an Ardent?
Uh... by getting them? You have read the Mind's Eye article, right? Physical Power isn't bad, and has room for most of those without getting rid of anything good.
The BAB gain of Slayer's not worth losing another ML, spending a feat and losing the additional Ardent class features. Slayer's other abilities are gravy, don't get me wrong but mostly emulatable with powers or equipment.
What class features? And you're seriously complaining about losing Manifester levels? For an Ardent?
If you want to talk about completely ignoring taking any levels of monk, I'd back you up, but Slayer? lolno.
Re:Powers: I just noticed that you forgot to include, in your list of powers you want, any of the hours-duration natural attack powers. That's how psionic melee works. Not using them is akin to a single-classed wizard running around in an AMF.
I was under the impression that ardents who PrC out don't gain access to new mantles, as that's a class feature rather than an inherent part of their progression. I could be wrong, though - I don't have access to CPsi at the moment and it has been a while since I've read over the class.
They don't. However, they only get one mantle after 10, and they get nothing past level 15. Especially with the Mind's Eye ACF, but even normally, you lose very little for PrCing out after level 5, and I cannot thing of a single reason to stick around after 10.
Uh... by getting them? You have read the Mind's Eye article, right? Physical Power isn't bad, and has room for most of those without getting rid of anything good.
Yes, I did and I'm talking with our GM to use that.
I see space to add Expansion and perhaps Strenght of My Enemy there.
Inertial Armor (another must to have power) and Power Weapon seems to fit Force Mantle.
I was going to suggest Hustle in Freedom Mantle, but it's already there! My bad.
Last, Vampiric Weapon.... It sounds to fit Consumption Mantle (And Strenght of My Enemy may be here too).
But perhaps I may be wrong, so feel free to criticize the above suggestions. I have in mind to choose Freedom and Conflict as Mantle. They looks great for a gish character.
Re:Powers: I just noticed that you forgot to include, in your list of powers you want, any of the hours-duration natural attack powers. That's how psionic melee works. Not using them is akin to a single-classed wizard running around in an AMF.
Intertial Armor is an hour-duration power.
That said, I ask for some patiente. As said previously, I'm not familiar with D&D, so I'm having a hard time reading books and material on the web with hints.
In any case, I'd appreciate if you tell me what great powers a gish character must to have.
I know that your main messenge is "9s". But looking at it, the mantle system seems to be so limited. ACF makes a good job to fix it, but that's optional, which means that many DM might reject it. Without it, do you still think that a Tashalatora Monk would be better playing Ardents instead of Psionic Warriors?
And yes, I'll stand still as a Tashalatora Monk. I've talked to our GM about Illith Slayer and he said something like "Meh, they are too driven to hunt down Illiths. It doesn't sounds good to your character idea". So it's likely I'll stay as Tashalatora Monk as a matter of character concept.
What is really pissing me off is that I liked the Kalashtar race (quori shards seems awesome!), but they have Favored Class: Psion and the GM will use that rule, which means Talashatora Monk/Ardent or Psionic Warrior would have XP penalty. Is there any way to deal with that? I found this article about the issue and sent an e-mail, but I'm still waiting for an answer.
Uh... by getting them? You have read the Mind's Eye article, right? Physical Power isn't bad, and has room for most of those without getting rid of anything good.
Yes, I did and I'm talking with our GM to use that.
I see space to add Expansion and perhaps Strenght of My Enemy there.
Inertial Armor (another must to have power) and Power Weapon seems to fit Force Mantle.
I was going to suggest Hustle in Freedom Mantle, but it's already there! My bad.
Last, Vampiric Weapon.... It sounds to fit Consumption Mantle (And Strenght of My Enemy may be here too).
But perhaps I may be wrong, so feel free to criticize the above suggestions.
Ardent's mantles are philosophical in nature. All you have to do is frame it right. Think about how you could tie in the concept of physical power or conflict(Which is so broad you could bring in any combat power) or freedom to the power. It's simple.
I have in mind to choose Freedom and Conflict as Mantle. They looks great for a gish character.
Conflict is trash. But if you're willing to throw almost all the powers out of it, then go ahead, but Physical Power has a better ability.
Intertial Armor is an hour-duration power.
And doesn't kill anything.
That said, I ask for some patiente. As said previously, I'm not familiar with D&D, so I'm having a hard time reading books and material on the web with hints.
In any case, I'd appreciate if you tell me what great powers a gish character must to have.
Claws of the Beast are an unconditional must on any melee psionic. Period. Any other hour/level natural attack, like Tail of the Dragon, is effectively mandatory. Claw of the Vampire is too. Read King of Smack again. Basically, if it helps you kill things and lasts for hours, it's generally a good idea.
I know that your main messenge is "9s". But looking at it, the mantle system seems to be so limited. ACF makes a good job to fix it, but that's optional, which means that many DM might reject it. Without it, do you still think that a Tashalatora Monk would be better playing Ardents instead of Psionic Warriors?
Yes. Of course, Tash monks make the build weaker, regardless, but that's neither here nor there.
And yes, I'll stand still as a Tashalatora Monk. I've talked to our GM about Illith Slayer and he said something like "Meh, they are too driven to hunt down Illiths. It doesn't sounds good to your character idea". So it's likely I'll stay as Tashalatora Monk as a matter of character concept.
...Then show him the SRD version
What is really pissing me off is that I liked the Kalashtar race (quori shards seems awesome!), but they have Favored Class: Psion and the GM will use that rule, which means Talashatora Monk/Ardent or Psionic Warrior would have XP penalty. Is there any way to deal with that? I found this article about the issue and sent an e-mail, but I'm still waiting for an answer.
Get rid of Monk.
If you're still dead-set on Tash, then you can still take it. It actually doesn't require any monk levels. All you lose out on is some saves you'll have large enough bonuses to anyways and Evasion.
They don't. However, they only get one mantle after 10, and they get nothing past level 15. Especially with the Mind's Eye ACF, but even normally, you lose very little for PrCing out after level 5, and I cannot thing of a single reason to stick around after 10.
I'd stay in until Ardent 10, definitely, if Mind's Eye is on the table - dominant ideal is quite good. But OK, now that I'm back and looking at the class, I can see why it doesn't really make a difference if you PrC out after level 10.
Conflict is trash. But if you're willing to throw almost all the powers out of it, then go ahead, but Physical Power has a better ability.
Conflict powers increase mobility, attack and damage, defense and even group buffing. That definitively doesn't mach my definition of trash.
Speaking about Mantle, which mantle do you choose? And which powers do you preffer?
And doesn't kill anything.
Yes, but it increases your chance to stay alive by improving your AC.
Claws of the Beast are an unconditional must on any melee psionic. Period. Any other hour/level natural attack, like Tail of the Dragon, is effectively mandatory. Claw of the Vampire is too. Read King of Smack again. Basically, if it helps you kill things and lasts for hours, it's generally a good idea.
Sure it is. But it doesn't fit the original idea.
Then show him the SRD version
Changing their psionic target doesn't change the fact that their lives are focused on hunting something very specific, devoting every single effort to do so.
Get rid of Monk. (...) If you're still dead-set on Tash, then you can still take it. It actually doesn't require any monk levels. All you lose out on is some saves you'll have large enough bonuses to anyways and Evasion.
Ok, I know there's a long discussion about requiring or not Monk levels. Despite that, our DM says that it does require (and I understand - and agree - why), so if there's no monk, there's no Tashalatora. Yet 2 monk levels (and nothing more!) seems ok.
What is so great about Slayer/Ilith Slayer? Is the BAB? Or is something else?
Conflict powers increase mobility, attack and damage, defense and even group buffing. That definitively doesn't mach my definition of trash.
Yeah, no they really don't.
Speaking about Mantle, which mantle do you choose? And which powers do you preffer?
I like Time most of all, but I really don't like Ardents. They're honestly comparable to Ur-Priest in levels of poorly-designed brokenness.
Yes, but it increases your chance to stay alive by improving your AC.
Okay, listen, you're new at this so you probably haven't looked at all the numbers, but really, no. AC is very very not an effective defense. Unless your AC is level+25 at the bare minimum, you might as well have AC 10, and even then, there are still too many ways to bypass it. AC is a very inefficient defense. It's like blowing a bunch of power points on a mediocre damage buff that doesn;t effect anything with spells or SLAs. Sure, it's nifty if it's free, like Tempest's Psycarnum Warrior, but normally? Far too much investment,
Sure it is. But it doesn't fit the original idea.
Why not? It's, once again, about how you frame it. The Egotist is a guy who through dedication and focus manages to punch stuff really hard.
Changing their psionic target doesn't change the fact that their lives are focused on hunting something very specific, devoting every single effort to do so.
...no. Very, very no.
What you're saying is akin to claiming Rangers can't PrC because favored enemy means ZOMGKILLKILLDEATHMURDERKILL!
Ok, I know there's a long discussion about requiring or not Monk levels. Despite that, our DM says that it does require (and I understand - and agree - why), so if there's no monk, there's no Tashalatora. Yet 2 monk levels (and nothing more!) seems ok.
It's seriously dead levels, but okay, if your heart's set on it, that's fine.
What is so great about Slayer/Ilith Slayer? Is the BAB? Or is something else?
Full BAB. They also don't have to waste power points, powers known, and, in your case, mantles, on getting basic communities, but that's just gravy.
Kalashtar Monk/Ardents really takes XP penalties???
Yep. One of the many reasons everyone here likes to forget that rule exists.
Now, I'm having a hard time to choose the powers and to put them in the right sequence. Here is a list of some powers that I have in mind.
Psionic Warriors Powers (ACF - Substitute Powers):
Expansion (Physical Power Mantle)
Vampiric Blade (Consumption Mantle)
Strenght of My Enemy (Consumption Mantle)
Intertial Armor (Force Mantle)
Power Weapon (Force Mantle)
Ardent Powers
=> Freedom Mantle (This is one of his primary mantles for sure!)
Dimension Hop
Hustle
Fly, Psionic
Freedom of Movement, Psionic
Teleport, Psionic Greater
=> Conflict Mantle
Metaphysical Weapon (not sure if it's worthy. Any advice?)
Psionic Lion's Charge
=> Physical Power Mantle
Vigor
TOTAL: 13 Powers Know, 1 Power Know left
At level 13, I can choose 14 Powers. I'm not sure if I can take Greater Teleport at Ardent 13 (if not, can I take Teleport and then trade it for Greater Teleport in the future or it's just too silly?)
Primary Mantle: Freedom is, for sure, a primary mantle. The other one I was going to choose was Conflict, but I'm having a hard time here. As a primary Mantle, I shoud have at least two (or maybe three) powers from this Mantle. Psionic Lion's Charge is a must, but it's a level 2 Power, so I can't take it at the Ardent 1. Spirit of War sounds amazing, but it's level 8 Power and there's no chance to take it at low levels and I don't even know which level I can take it (I'm still a bit confused about Manifester Level and Mante Power Levels). And Metaphysical Weapon... I'm not sure if it is a good power. The party's wizard already can enchant weapons. Any tips?
Choosen Mantle: Freedom, Conflict, Physical Power, Consumption, Force and Time (for a total of 6 Mantles). Maybe other Mantles through Mantle Tap Feat.
Future Powers: With Ardent 18, I'll have 19 Powers Know (so there's room for another 5 extra powers), possibly more through Expanded Knowledge. I've heard many people saying that Schism is another good power (although I don't think it's that hot as people say), but the DM won't allow Substitute Power here. I may take Greater Teleport later if I can't take it at Ardent 13. Anticipatory Strike looks good too. And here there're other suggestions like Bend Reality, Timeless Body, Hypercognition, Time Regression, Temporal Acceleration, Mass Time Hop.
So for now I need help to organize Ardent 13 Powers (for a total of 14 Powers) using the list mentioned above. Any idea of how to do it?
Vampiric Blade
Strenght of My Enemy
But I think I'll spend one feat (Expanded Knowledge: Energy Wave¹ ) to have at least one blasting attack.
13~15d6 in a cone of 120 ft may sucks in a munchkin-mathematical perspective, but to be able to fry hordes of enemies while looking cool in the process is just awesomatic!
¹ - This Power is within the Energy Mantle, but it's the only power I want from this Mantle, so I won't waste one Mantle Slot or Mantle Tap talent (and one Power Know).
That means you can't attack with Claws of the Beast AND your UAS in the same round. You COULD attack with any OTHER claws you had (via race, template, metamorph, etc) AND your UAS, but Claws of the Beast explicitly have an exception that is stupidly awkward to work around for a Tash build focused around big UAS damage.
Unless you are focused on Claws of the Beast (as the non-Tash King of Smack is), they really aren't that good outside of levels 1-8ish. I'd hardly call them "manditory".
Primary Mantle: Freedom, Conflict
Other mantle: Physical Power, Consuption and Energy.
1-Dimension Hop, Metaphysical Weapon
2-Expansion (Physical Power Mantle)
3-Strenght of My Enemy (Consumption Mantle)
4-Psionic Lion's Charge
5-Vampiric Blade (Consuption Mantle)
6-Hustle
7-Fly
8-Vigor
9-Freedom of Movement
10-
11-
12-
13-Energy Wave
Hiddent Talent (feat): Intertial Armor
You guys advised me to don't take any blasting power, arguing it sucks. Despite that, I choose Energy Wave (a level seven power from Energy Mantle) because I think it looks great. It's not only a blasting power, but a mass blasting power capable of fry dozens of enemies together in a 120 feet cone.
Problem is that it's the only power I took from the Energy Mantle and I'd like to take another one or maybe even two other powers as a way to justify the chosen of this mantle. I tried to swap Energy Missile into Energy Mantle, but the DM said a big NO. Is there any suggestion of another amazing psionic power that I could fit into this mantle?
After that, there's space left for another 2 other powers. Any suggestion?
Ok, these are the powers I've choosen (Monk 2/Ardent 13), using Substitute Power ACF:
Primary Mantle: Freedom, Conflict
Other mantle: Physical Power, Consuption and Energy.
1-Dimension Hop, Metaphysical Weapon
2-Expansion (Physical Power Mantle)
3-Strenght of My Enemy (Consumption Mantle)
4-Psionic Lion's Charge
5-Vampiric Blade (Consuption Mantle)
6-Hustle
7-Fly
8-Vigor
9-Freedom of Movement
10-
11-
12-
13-Energy Wave
Hiddent Talent (feat): Intertial Armor
You guys advised me to don't take any blasting power, arguing it sucks. Despite that, I choose Energy Wave (a level seven power from Energy Mantle) because I think it looks great. It's not only a blasting power, but a mass blasting power capable of fry dozens of enemies together in a 120 feet cone.
Problem is that it's the only power I took from the Energy Mantle and I'd like to take another one or maybe even two other powers as a way to justify the chosen of this mantle. I tried to swap Energy Missile into Energy Mantle, but the DM said a big NO. Is there any suggestion of another amazing psionic power that I could fit into this mantle?
After that, there's space left for another 2 other powers. Any suggestion?
1) Don't use Energy Mantle. The Time Mantle's granted ability is too good to pass up.
1) Don't use Energy Mantle. The Time Mantle's granted ability is too good to pass up.
That's right. My original intention was to choose Energy Wave with Expanded Knowledge feat. But I'd have till level 18 in order to do so, so I decided to take the Energy Mantle as one of his selected mantle. That's the reason I'm looking for one or two extra useful powers to fit inside Energy Mantle.
About Time Mantle, I still can take another Mantle in the next two levels (level 17) and I have an unused feat (and I must to decided it soon!!), so I can take the Tap Mantle feat and chose the Time mantle and another mantle later. What do you think?
Also, seriously, taking more than ten levels of Ardent? Honestly, well, it's a dumb idea. You don't get anything. Slayer is one of the best options, but seriously, you may as well be taking commoner past that level. It'd do you just about the same amount of good.
Dear god, why? Why would you take Energy? Or really Consumption? Or ENERGY?
Comsumption because using Substitute Powers, Vampiric Blade and Strenght of My Enemy both fits there. And it's hard to me to imagine a psy-gish without these powers (alongside with Expansion, of course).
About the Energy Mantle, as I said previously, my original intention was to take Energy Wave with Expanded Knowledge feat, but with Ardent 13 I only has access to level 7 powers. Expanded Knowledge allows me to choose one power with one level below the highest power level that the character can manifest, so I'd have to wait till level 18 (Monk 2/Ardent 16). Because of that I decided to take the Energy mantle and now I'm trying to find some cool power to switch the power list.
Also, seriously, taking more than ten levels of Ardent? Honestly, well, it's a dumb idea. You don't get anything. Slayer is one of the best options, but seriously, you may as well be taking commoner past that level. It'd do you just about the same amount of good.
With a pure Ardent character, I totaly agree with you. Ardent 10/Slayer 10 is much better than Ardent 20. But this character is a Tashalatora Monk, so I don't want to loose Monk levels for the unarmed damage boost and flurry of blows.
Comsumption because using Substitute Powers, Vampiric Blade and Strenght of My Enemy both fits there. And it's hard to me to imagine a psy-gish without these powers (alongside with Expansion, of course).
Vampiric Blade is overrated and both can be stuck in Conflict easily.
About the Energy Mantle, as I said previously, my original intention was to take Energy Wave with Expanded Knowledge feat, but with Ardent 13 I only has access to level 7 powers. Expanded Knowledge allows me to choose one power with one level below the highest power level that the character can manifest, so I'd have to wait till level 18 (Monk 2/Ardent 16). Because of that I decided to take the Energy mantle and now I'm trying to find some cool power to switch the power list.
No, you're an Ardent. You can use Practiced Manifester to learn powers like an Ardent 15
Also, it sucks. If you want ranged attacks, get a wand of Blood Wind. It'll do better damage and generally not suck, and is relatively cheap.
With a pure Ardent character, I totaly agree with you. Ardent 10/Slayer 10 is much better than Ardent 20. But this character is a Tashalatora Monk, so I don't want to loose Monk levels for the unarmed damage boost and flurry of blows.
Sigh...
Look, Flurry sucks hard. Also, it doesn't work with natural attacks. Yeah, the way Psionic melee works? Incompatible with Flurry. Which doesn't matter, because you'll get more attacks anyways and flurry sucks. Furthermore. Minks Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike both say "Hi, yeah, taking extra monk levels? Psssh."
Also, it doesn't work with natural attacks
Yes it does?
Also, it doesn't work with natural attacksYes it does?
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).
I don't see claws or tails or anything else like that in there. Do you?
My world is shaken.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/200...
Also skip agrees with you.
My world is shaken.www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/200...
Also skip agrees with you.
He also believes that the Monk was a well-designed class, so please excuse me for not being ecstatic about that.
Vampiric Blade is overrated and both can be stuck in Conflict easily.
Maybe with an omnibenevolent DM, yes, turning the Conflict Mantle too broad to accept almost any combat-oriented power.
Yet, as you know well, Strenght of My Enemy and Vampirc Blade are draining powers. They drain Strenght and HP, respectively, to your own pool. I see little space to debate if these powers fits another mantle besides Consumption.
No, you're an Ardent. You can use Practiced Manifester to learn powers like an Ardent 15
That's right. With that talent, I could learn powers like an Ardent 15 and finaly take Greater Teleport and other cool stuff.
But is this talent still usefull once you reach Monk 2/Ardent 18?
Also, it sucks. If you want ranged attacks, get a wand of Blood Wind. It'll do better damage and generally not suck, and is relatively cheap.
But I don't see Energy Wave as just a ranged attack. It is a ranged attack with the ability to blast even dozens of targets.
Look, Flurry sucks hard. Also, it doesn't work with natural attacks. Yeah, the way Psionic melee works? Incompatible with Flurry. Which doesn't matter, because you'll get more attacks anyways and flurry sucks. Furthermore. Minks Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike both say "Hi, yeah, taking extra monk levels? Psssh."
But the character is at level 15 right now, so Monk's Belt comes in action, rising effective unarmed damage to monk level 20. At Colossal, damage is 12d8. Not bad.
And I appreciate your consideration. But I shall remember that I'm speaking about a martial artist-based character. He is heavily-based on fictional martial artists like Kenshiro (from Hokuto no Ken series) and Yujiro (Baki - Son of a Grappler), although this Tashalatora Monk is a DBZ-like character (using his Ki to produce unhuman powers like to become bigger, fly, teleport and energy based attack). So his natural weapons will be knuckles, feet, knees, elbows and headbutts. If my intention was to use claws, I'd probably use a Shapeshifting Druid.
Maybe with an omnibenevolent DM, yes, turning the Conflict Mantle too broad to accept almost any combat-oriented power.
Yet, as you know well, Strenght of My Enemy and Vampirc Blade are draining powers. They drain Strenght and HP, respectively, to your own pool. I see little space to debate if these powers fits another mantle besides Consumption.
Actually, Stength of my Enemy doesn't actually drain strength. They're two separate abilities, the damage and the boost, only tangentially conected. That aside, though, seriously, you ahve Vigor, you really don't need Vampiric Claw/Blade/Toothbrush.
That's right. With that talent, I could learn powers like an Ardent 15 and finaly take Greater Teleport and other cool stuff.
But is this talent still usefull once you reach Monk 2/Ardent 18?
It still improves Manifester level.
But I don't see Energy Wave as just a ranged attack. It is a ranged attack with the ability to blast even dozens of targets.
And something you could do better with Form of Doom, for example. Think about it: Sure, it's shiny and all, but its expensive, the damage is crap, and how many times will you need to hit more people than you wan with a good half a dozen extra attacks?
But the character is at level 15 right now, so Monk's Belt comes in action, rising effective unarmed damage to monk level 20. At Colossal, damage is 12d8. Not bad.
Except it really isn't good. Sure, lots of dice look pretty, but a level six barbarian will be outdamaging that. It's not that much and seriously, you'd gain more damage through Power Attack with high BAB.
And I appreciate your consideration. But I shall remember that I'm speaking about a martial artist-based character. He is heavily-based on fictional martial artists like Kenshiro (from Hokuto no Ken series) and Yujiro (Baki - Son of a Grappler), although this Tashalatora Monk is a DBZ-like character (using his Ki to produce unhuman powers like to become bigger, fly, teleport and energy based attack). So his natural weapons will be knuckles, feet, knees, elbows and headbutts. If my intention was to use claws, I'd probably use a Shapeshifting Druid.
In the spirit of DBZ, remember Yamcha's Rogafufuken? Yeah, picture the claws like that. Jus' sayin, metagame constructs.
And Cyclone_Joker, Tash Kings of Smack do use Flurry. If you put a little effort into it, about the same as you would claws, you can get UAS damage into the 12-16d6 damage range, maybe higher. You only ever get 2 claws from Claws of the Beast, MAYBE 3 if are Elan and take Rapidstrike as your 15th or 18th level feats. Otherwise, you'll get WAY more attacks with Flurry + Snap Kick which ends up being way more damage than a fully augmented Claws of the Beast. If you can get to at least 16 BAB and 11th level Flurry, that's 7 attacks, 8 with Haste. Thats almost 3 times more attacks than you could get with Claws of the Beast at maximum. Sure, Form of Doom could also give a few more attacks, but they probably won't have the feats like Improved Natural Attack invested in them to truely roll over the damage to scary values. Plus, Form of Doom doesn't last very long, requiring an "in combat" buffing round on top of other stuff like Expansion and whatnot.
No, for a Tash King of Smack, if you AREN'T using your UAS, you might as well just be a straight PsyWar or Ardent. Keep the armor, keep the burned feats, and just use Claws of the Beast. Tash isn't the same as most other Psionic melee builds, don't try to shoehorn it into the same rules.
You only need 11 levels of "monk" for most Tash builds. Monk2 gives you 2, and Slayer 10 gives you the rest in spades. That gives you Greater Flurry. You can get a Monk Belt which gets you up to 16-17th level which gives you all but the last damage bump, and if that is really important to you, you can always take Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB.
And Cyclone_Joker, Tash Kings of Smack do use Flurry. If you put a little effort into it, about the same as you would claws, you can get UAS damage into the 12-16d6 damage range, maybe higher. You only ever get 2 claws from Claws of the Beast, MAYBE 3 if are Elan and take Rapidstrike as your 15th or 18th level feats. Otherwise, you'll get WAY more attacks with Flurry + Snap Kick which ends up being way more damage than a fully augmented Claws of the Beast. If you can get to at least 16 BAB and 11th level Flurry, that's 7 attacks, 8 with Haste. Thats almost 3 times more attacks than you could get with Claws of the Beast at maximum. Sure, Form of Doom could also give a few more attacks, but they probably won't have the feats like Improved Natural Attack invested in them to truely roll over the damage to scary values. Plus, Form of Doom doesn't last very long, requiring an "in combat" buffing round on top of other stuff like Expansion and whatnot.
Only chumps waste actions on flurry. Sorry, bro, but no. You can't use natural weapons with Flurry, and if you can't get more than two extra attacks from Natural Weapons, then you're not trying.
Maybe I'm misremembering which claw attack is the best source of damage, I'll give you that, but Flurry sucks. Hard. It's simply two extra unarmed attacks. Let's see, here's me completely not trying:
2 claws(Claws of Darkness, Grafts, or various soulmelds, pick one), four tentacles(Form of Doom), and a tail(Tail of the Dragon) gives us, on a Synad or Elan, 4(BAB)+2(Claw)+1(Rapidstrike)+4(Improved Rapidstrike)+1(Tail)+4(Tentacles). This is purely off the top of my head, and I assure you, it's quite trivial to get wing buffets and slam attacks, and I'm pretty sure I could get at least two extra tails if I went all Incarnum. So, why don't you help me with some arithmetic: Is 4+2+1+4+1+4 greater or less than 4+2? This addition thing always gets me.
No, for a Tash King of Smack, if you AREN'T using your UAS, you might as well just be a straight PsyWar or Ardent. Keep the armor, keep the burned feats, and just use Claws of the Beast. Tash isn't the same as most other Psionic melee builds, don't try to shoehorn it into the same rules.
...No. I'm not contesting UAS, which would be painfully obvious should you bother reading my post(Although such a thing is obviously pointless in a serious discussion, amirite?). Flurry, however, sucks. Hard. and definitely not in the fun way.
I mean, I know it may helps a lot in the early levels, since most Tashalatora builds takes 2 monk levels, but that difference wouldn't disappear once you are Monk 2/Ardent 17 (if I got it right, Ardent 17 has access to level 9 powers), rendering the feat obsolete?
I have a simple question: What makes Practiced Manifester so hot? I see it present in many Tashalatora builds.
Two reasons: The first is that Psionics cares about ML a lot more than casting. It lets you augment your powers more, and is generally a pretty good deal. Second, and this one is important, due to some poor wording, or just an idiot writer, Ardent's maximum power level they can learn is based of ML, rather than class level. That is why I've been suggesting Slayer. You really don't lose anything.
I mean, I know it may helps a lot in the early levels, since most Tashalatora builds takes 2 monk levels, but that difference wouldn't disappear once you are Monk 2/Ardent 17 (if I got it right, Ardent 17 has access to level 9 powers), rendering the feat obsolete?
Actually, in your case it would be Monk 2/Ardent 15, or even earlier if you actually try. Regardless you keep the increased level for augmentation afterwards, so it's a good deal.
Finally, since it was so keenly pointed out to me that Ardents unlike other classes choose their powers known based on their Manifester Level not their class level, you will ALWAYS want Practiced Manifester if taking non-manifester levels. It makes upwards of 4 non-class levels not prevent you from reaching the same power level access as full manifesters. So at Monk2/Ardent 10/Slayer 5 you're Manifesting up to 9ths, as apposed to being stuck with only 7ths.
How are you getting all of these actions? Claws of the Beast explicitly can't be combined with other attacks, and the other claws power has a much shorter duration.
2 claws(Claws of Darkness, Grafts, or various soulmelds, pick one)
....which would be painfully obvious should you bother reading my post(Although such a thing is obviously pointless in a serious discussion, amirite?).
Form of Doom is short duration. And that's neglecting normal PsyWar buffs like Expansion or Vigor (shared with psi crystal). Link Power can shorten the buff routine, depending on how many focuses you can expend, but you end up burning a lot of feats, PP, powers known, and combat rounds
You do know Psionics are better at casually disregarding the action economy than even most casters, right?
when you can fight nearly as effectively with a simple Expansion linked to Weapon of the Vampire and using the Flurry that you already get for free.
So, you're meaning to tell me that 6 attacks, one more if you have someone better than you wasting an action buffing you, is "almost as good" as 17 attacks(I forgot snap kick), 18 if you want to throw another cheap buff(Bite of the Wolf) on.
Is it the best possible? Maybe not. But it doesn't "blow", and is something you get already as long as you have at least 11 levels tash "monk". Focus on the superior UAS damage which synergizes better with Weapon of the Vampire anyway.
Sunk cost fallacy.
Seriously, no. You're wasting potential by focusing on a garbage ability. Flurry sucks. Merely having two claws will get you the same number of attacks without any investment.
I'm sorry, but your advice isn't even grounded in reality. Sure, if you could have all of the things you listed, the character's abilities would be very strong. But I'm just not seeing it. So please, enlighten me. Where are all of these buffs coming from, and the PP to manifest them more than once per day, and the rounds to manifest them before a simple Shock Trooper runs over all of the foes? I've built lots of Tash build and played a couple, and your advice just isn't realistic in my experience.
I'm sorry, but your advice isn't even grounded in reality.
NO, it's grounded i nthe rules of an RPG.
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