| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1squaretangleOct 04, 2008 2:27:29 | I have always tried to avoid feinting whenever using a rogue type character because I have somehow convinced myself that Feinting isn't very reliable. How useful does it get as the levels increase? Also can someone explain exactly how Feint works (and Improved Feint too)? |
| #2empirateOct 04, 2008 4:09:54 | Feinting works the following way: You make a Bluff check. The opponent makes a Sense Motive check, adding his BAB. You take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check if the opponent is nonhumanoid, and -8 penalty if the opponent is of animal intelligence (Int 1-2). Nonintelligent opponents are totally immune to feinting. If your Bluff check result is higher than the opponent total (Sense Motive check plus BAB), the opponent loses his Dex bonus vs. your next single melee attack. Feinting is a standard action. With Improved Feint, it is a move action. An Invisible Blade can feint as a free action 1/round. So is it worth it? That totally depends on your campaign. If you face a lot of Undead, Constructs, Plants, Elementals and Oozes, you'll find simply denying their Dex bonus a waste of your actions. Also, if there's a lot of fog or darkness, fortification and so on, your DM obviously doesn't want your sneak attacks to succeed. But in such a campaign, you shouldn't be playing a sneak attack focused character anyway. If, on the other hand, sneak attack works quite reliably in your campaign, feinting becomes a good option. Basically, feinting will work best at mid levels: Your maximized Bluff will own enough to overcome Sense Motive (most opponents don't even have this) and BAB (most opponents' BAB isn't much higher than your party Fighter's yet). At high levels, though, monster BAB goes through the roof. So unless your Bluff check is really good (which means investing in a +15 item and Cha buffers), feinting will not be reliable. You'll get through sometimes, sure enough, but feinting is all about reliability. Since you spend actions to activate it, you want secure returns. Another thing to consider is the fact that feinting only improves your next single attack. So in the high level game, you'll be sorely behind warrior types if you rely on feinting to increase your damage output. Also, most SAers are TWFers, meaning you'll have a lot of attacks, only one of which will get to be made vs a Dex-denied opponent. To sum it all up: feinting is a nice tactic. It can work reasonably well at lower to mid levels. Improved Feint is a nice feat for an SAer that you play through these levels, probably a must if you want to feint at all. At high levels, you'll usually have better things to do with your actions. Also at high levels, you want a full attack to be sneak attacks, not only a single one, so other tactics than feinting are called for, usually. The Invisible Blade can make feinting worthwhile at higher levels, as it doesn't cost you an action to feint anymore. Only once per round, as the errata stated, but hey! It's free! If I played an SA-focused meleer, I'd strongly consider Improved Feint AND the Invisible Blade PrC, but only if I were to play the character from the low levels up. If I started in a high-level campaign, I'd probably skip feinting altogether. I'd also be playing a roguish spellcaster instead of a mundane one, so I still got useful contributions to make whenever SA is not possible. |
| #3squaretangleOct 04, 2008 4:18:46 | Thanks! ^^:P |
| #4reisOct 04, 2008 12:51:57 | at high level you really need greater invisibility or to flank your opponent in order to keep up with other melee because that's about the only ways to get in multiple sneak attacks per round |
| #5SenevriOct 06, 2008 4:06:17 | Clarion Commander is the second best way to get sneak attacks in. The best being a flanking buddy, naturally. Not sure of the value of Telling Blow, but it seems it's good, esp. combined with a high crit weapon. Esp. if your DM rules that normal SA + Telling Blow adds up. In a E6 game, Improved Feint may very well be worth the cost. As for reliability, you should be able to get your Bluff very high, if you focus on it at all. |
| #6bronzebeardOct 06, 2008 6:57:24 | Empirate's Avatar I'd like to grant Empirate an excellence cookie for his extremely well done representation of the bluff use (unfortunatly, I'm too lazy to bring in the icon. So feel free to plunder). Anyway, when I play a rogue which is also an elf (that is to say, nay a halfling or the excellent whispergnomeRoS than I also pick the Improve Weapon Familiarity feat to be able to use the exotic elven weapon (Races of the Forest?). They make Telling Blow the great feat it is. |
| #7empirateOct 07, 2008 3:04:08 | Yummie! Cookie! I've always thought Telling Blow kind of strange. You're trying to get into flanking position/go first/feint anyway, so how's another, unreliable way of triggering SA useful? By the wording of the Feat, you might think that you get double SA damage on a successful sneak attack that's also a crit. This would be awesome. Unfortunately, that's not how it works, iirc (errata killed it). Even with a large crit range, wouldn't it be easier to just flank the guy instead of poking away, hoping for a crit? |
| #8bronzebeardOct 26, 2008 5:07:38 | Yummie! Cookie! No. Flanking is unreliable since most of the time other players will not go into melee for you. That is excluding the BSF that is already too damn busy. Bluff is also unreliable since you can never tell the DC (opponent skill) that you'll have to pass. + the amount of effort you have to sacrifice to make it work awesome is very annoying (inv. blade if you want to SA with every attack of daggers, Imp. bluff for 1/round). Telling Blow: Pick an elven swordRoW, which crit rating (18-20) is only matched by Falchion, Rapier, Scimitar and Kukri (they all do less damage). Combine in keen effect of Imp. Crit. feat to double it (15-20) and you already have a weapon that have a 30% to SA and to do more damage than a bastard sword. AND you can SA every attack AND don't rely on anyone else! Awesome The most important thing to remember is that while bluffing and entering flanking position require an action on your behalf - telling blow does not! Just swing those swords! |
| #9thegodheadOct 26, 2008 5:18:20 | Feinting is more effort than it is worth. You can optimize where it is decent (requires much dumpster diving, look in the handy links), but really it's better to just get a flanking buddy. |
| #10moviestarNov 01, 2008 1:05:45 | Some sort of animal companion (guard dog?) or summoned creature with wand+UMD makes a great partner for any rogue since ANY other attacking creature in position(even sucky ones that will never hit the target) works to gain flanking bonus. This gives you a flanking partner to attack, and if the dog dies eh well, 25gp each at level 10+ is pocket change (Just remember to have a fresh cut onion nearby when the dog dies if a druid is in the party) |
| #11ChristopherGrovesNov 01, 2008 20:25:52 | Agree. Feinting is FUN, but sub-optimal. It works best at lower levels when you're not sacrificing multiple attacks. The cost of feinting is ... a move action. Unless you have good ways to get move actions you're better off trying to find ways to use your precision damage with all your attacks. |
| #12jaronkNov 01, 2008 23:16:58 | Feinting, like any combat strategy in D&D, is good if you work on it, bad if you don't. Surprising Repost is a feat that makes it so any feint you do keeps them dex denied for the full round. Combine that with Invisible Blade, and they always have no dex against your attacks. Obviously, that's enough right there to be quite good (and you can take 10 with your bluff checks!). From there it's just a matter of keeping your skill high enough. Since very few opponents have a maxed out Sense Motive, and you can easily have a very high Bluff, you should have no trouble making this work the vast majority of the time, and constantly bypassing your opponent's dexterity is very handy even without sneak attack. So, it's really not much. One feat and one prestige class (though the latter of course requires feats too) gets you there. JaronK |
| #13thegodheadNov 02, 2008 1:45:04 | Feinting, like any combat strategy in D&D, is good if you work on it, bad if you don't. Feinting is more effort than it is worth. You can optimize where it is decent (requires much dumpster diving, look in the handy links), but really it's better to just get a flanking buddy. 5 levels of invisible blade, 2 feats blown on entry that melee characters wouldn't have taken (PBS+far shot), a feat from a splat that very few people have (ANOTHER DROW BOOK? WTH?)... Understatements much? Even then, it doesn't work against enemies that are mindless creatures which totally blows. |
| #14jaronkNov 02, 2008 1:10:53 | 3 Feats (5, with the prerequistes of Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, but you'd have taken those anyway), and 5 levels in a PrC that's good for the sort of characters that would want it (and have trouble with Undead anyway). That's not too bad. Also, note that the Invisible Blade's prerequisite feats are borked... they're supposed to be Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse, which is much more reasonable (no official errata, but that's what the writer says... the current feats are a holdover from the original class when the Master Thrower and Invisible Blade were one 10 level class). Compare to, for example, a charger that normally spends more feats (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, plus either Leap Attack or Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, and Spirited Charge, and maybe Headlong Rush) and more levels on it (though with better results) and the costs are quite reasonable. But yes, Drow of the Underdark, like many of the later books, was trying to fix mechanics that were otherwise unused. DotU was fixing Poison, Intimidate, and Feint. It's a great resource for people who want to use less common tactics in battle. Still, two books besides core is hardly so unreasonable. JaronK |
| #15thegodheadNov 02, 2008 1:17:40 | 3 Feats (5, with the prerequistes of Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, but you'd have taken those anyway), and 5 levels in a PrC that's good for the sort of characters that would want it (and have trouble with Undead anyway). That's not too bad. Also, note that the Invisible Blade's prerequisite feats are borked... they're supposed to be Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse, which is much more reasonable (no official errata, but that's what the writer says... the current feats are a holdover from the original class when the Master Thrower and Invisible Blade were one 10 level class). That would be called a houserule. Compare to, for example, a charger that normally spends more feats (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, plus either Leap Attack or Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, and Spirited Charge, and maybe Headlong Rush) and more levels on it (though with better results) and the costs are quite reasonable. Except that chargers one shot everything with just pounce and shock trooper (one level or polymorph and 3 feats) and everything else is superfluous. But yes, Drow of the Underdark, like many of the later books, was trying to fix mechanics that were otherwise unused. DotU was fixing Poison, Intimidate, and Feint. It's a great resource for people who want to use less common tactics in battle. It's by far and large one of the hardest books to find. I've never actually seen it being sold in any bookstore since it released. Sure, you can buy it online or download it illegally, but you're not likely to have it to start with. Still, two books besides core is hardly so unreasonable. One of which is incredibly hard to find. Basically you stated what I had already stated and tried to act like you were bringing something useful into the discussion. Learn to play, noob. |
| #16jaronkNov 02, 2008 1:33:27 | That would be called a houserule. Which is why I specifically mentioned as much. It's by far and large one of the hardest books to find. I've never actually seen it being sold in any bookstore since it released. Sure, you can buy it online or download it illegally, but you're not likely to have it to start with. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2 There, that's the excerpt, which gives enough of the feat to know exactly how it works. Tada! No need to find hard to locate books. Basically you stated what I had already stated and tried to act like you were bringing something useful into the discussion. Learn to play, noob. Except that you didn't state the feat necessary to actually do it, which wasn't very useful. And do try to be somewhat civil, it's not that hard. JaronK |
| #17thegodheadNov 02, 2008 11:36:02 | Which is why I specifically mentioned as much. Service Unavailable Except that you didn't state the feat necessary to actually do it, which wasn't very useful. JaronK fails yet again. |
| #18bkdubs123Nov 02, 2008 13:18:57 | While it's unfortunate that the link didn't work for you, TGH, it did work perfectly for me. Do you really have nothing better to do than pounce on JaronK's posts wherever they may be just to post your own snarky remark? Anyway, to the OP, I think everything was summed up here particularly well, though I will point on the one thing that seems to be missing. Feinting allows a Rogue to Sneak Attack creatures that have Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, yes, it is often a hassle to make Feinting work well in the mid to high level game, but that's one upside. |
| #19thegodheadNov 02, 2008 13:27:15 | Do you really have nothing better to do than pounce on JaronK's posts wherever they may be just to post your own snarky remark? Not really. Why? |
| #20bkdubs123Nov 02, 2008 13:48:46 | Not really. Why? Well, because that's no fun! There's got to be something better you could be doing! |
| #21thegodheadNov 02, 2008 14:15:42 | Well, because that's no fun! There's got to be something better you could be doing! I'd debate that. |
| #22empirateNov 02, 2008 15:42:40 | Don't even ignore the Troll. He'll just regenerate. Question asked and answered in fill, I believe. Mods, close the thread, please. |