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| #1Tr0usersMay 30, 2015 15:32:59 | I have a ritual for character building for D&D. First I spend days on end coming up with some build; then I come here asking for views from people who actually know what they're doing, discover that I've created a ridiculous abomination, and start again more or less from scratch with forum members instructing me on how to do it right.
I've had another go. I'm going to be playing in a game with new players - we've got a fighter, wizard, ranger and druid. Predictably, they're all eager to dive into combat, so I've decided to have a go at skillmonkeying. Although I'd still like to be able to deal some decent damage, I'm more interested in pulling off some impressive skill-based feats. I've done my reading - found a couple of factotum handbooks, and am weighing up a couple of possible builds.
These classes are in no strict order, just the one in which I happen to have noted them down in my small notepad:
Middle-aged Human
Str - 11 Dex - 14 Con - 12 Int - 16 Wis - 12 Cha - 16
Factotum 8 Swordsage 1 (fun maneuvers to help me inflict flat-footedness for to iainjutsu a sucker, and throw a sucker around) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Knowledge, Travel, and Trickery Devotions) Exoticist Fighter 1 (for that Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnomish quickrazor (and possibly kusari-gama)) and Two-Weapon Fighting, I guess (although I'll need to find another point of Dex somewhere, and I'm kinda tempted by Combat Expertise)) Shadowdancer 1 (Hide in Plain Sight seems as though it would be a good thing to have) Chameleon 2 ('cos I need bonus feats wherever I can get them, and Aptitude Focus and additional spells can't hurt) Swashbuckler 3 (Insightful Strike could net me that decent damage I'm after, and Weapon Finesse would save me some gp on Feycraft weapons) Archivist 1 (level 1 Dark Knowledge looks quite similar to Knowledge Devotion - is there any point having both? Kinda into Scribe Scroll, if there's going to be the opportunity for building up a little scroll library) Human Paragon 2 (for another bonus feat)
Feats: Able Learner Nymph's Kiss Item Familiar Faerie Mysteries Initiate Imperious Command Darkstalker Keen Intellect Font of Inspiration x 3
Nine classes seems like a lot. I have this feeling that it's a bad idea - I don't tend to see many nine-class builds going around. It would also be cool to have more levels in Factotum for a better boost from Cunning Knowledge, more Inspiration points, and Cunning Dodge, so I could drop Swashbuckler (I'll sorely miss that damage boost, though), Archivist, and Human Paragon (dropping either Keen Intellect, or a Font of Inspiration, I suppose). That could give me 13 levels in Factotum and another level spare.
Alright, I'm braced and ready to find out about the tragic rookie errors I've made. I'm a little concerned that he's a bit weak defensively, although I'm hoping that Travel Devotion and maybe a wand of Alter Self can sort that out. Just to reiterate, I know this is an optimisation forum, but I'm not after anything spectacular, just a good skill-focused build. I'd be very grateful to anybody who can point out the creases that I'm sure are here, and help me iron them out. Hopefully the whole thing isn't just one big crease.
Cheers!
Edit:
Can't have Shadowdancer because I haven't got the feats. So that's one down... |
| #2CoffeemancerJun 01, 2015 21:55:13 | Knowledge Devotion is stricktly better than an Archivist dip, you would only get attacks with Archivist, and I believe limited daily? (I no longer recall exactly). Where as Knowledge Devotion gives it to you for every enemy type present, every time. it also applies to attack AND damage, something it takes a long while for the archivist to get. Take a cloistered cleric dip and if allowed trade domains for devotions, mmmmmmm smell that? That's the sweet scent of mechanicly sound zeal. EDIT: which of you mentioned in your OP, dang
The odd exotic fighter choices looks like Person-mans habberdasher the mad build on the giant in the playground forums, you should google it! It's really good (and cool) just stock up on skill tricks, I DM'd a group with a Crimson Corsair/Rogue with with skill tricks out the wazoo, he put all my bounty hunter and ninja foe's to shame. (not the class of course, no one uses the ninja class) |
| #3Tr0usersJun 02, 2015 14:24:01 | Hey, thanks for the reply!
Yeah that Cloistered Cleric level is being took, without question. There are so many sweet options available in that dip that I'd be an idiot not to. My query is really about whether it's worth getting Dark Knowledge on top of Knowledge Devotion - the Archivist dip is far less interesting to me.
At this point I'm really wishing I had just one more level to play with so I could have Factotum 13/Exoticist Fighter 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 1/Chameleon 2/Swashbuckler 3. As it is, I either have to drop Chameleon and lose a feat, or drop Swashbuckler and lose my Int bonus to damage. The other alternative is to go with the Factotum 8 build that I described above (minus the level in Shadowdancer, which I can't get because of feat requirements, and plus one level in Exoticist Fighter for an extra bonus feat, or in Human Paragon for +2 to Int). (Edit: OR I go with Factotum 12, and lose Cunning Dodge).
I'd really like those five extra levels in Factotum, mainly for the improved Cunning Knowledge boost to skills (1 inspiration point = gain bonus equal to Factotum level to skill check 1/day/skill) and Cunning Dodge (4 inspiration points = ignore effects of attack that would drop HP below 0, as though the attack were dodged 1/day). I also really want that feat from Chameleon, and the damage bonus from Swashbuckler. Anyone got any advice on which of these things I should drop? And if you think I should drop the feat, which feat should I drop, bearing in mind that without the Human Paragon feat, Keen Intellect is already gone?
Edit:
Just had a look, and Haberdash looks like the same general concept, but with more flaxibility as far as exotic weapon proficiencies go. I've given it some thought, but I think I'll stick with the Exoticist Fighter class, because I want that bonus feat, and because I don't want to have to be attempting to keep track of dozens of weapons and their stats and abilities. Four proficiencies is enough for for me. But yes, there are a fair number of skill tricks that are great for this build, and who can complain for two skill points? |
| #4Luna_TriggerJun 03, 2015 18:59:17 |
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| #5Tempest_StormwindJun 04, 2015 10:26:48 | I'll reply longer when I'm not on a phone, but I'm pretty sure the factotum can't power devotion feats on its own. However, you still don't have to take a cleric level: buy a Shroudcrown. (Remove the Hide from Undead option and its cost gets more reasonable.)
EDIT: Upon a deeper reading at a full keyboard, I have to say that Luna Trigger covered nearly all of it perfectly apart from the shroudcrown. (It has three effects: Hide from Undead (marginally useful at best, but it's priced by DMG standards; compare to the Ghost Shroud in the MIC), a small bonus on saves vs undead (virtually worthless), and giving you Turn Undead as if you were a high-level cleric. Since all you're interested in is the turn attempts, you can try seeing if you can get that last effect alone - or better yet, extrapolate what "Turn Undead as a 1st level cleric" would cost as an item - and never looking back.) And even that assumes you're wanting a devotion feat or two that can't be better handled through gear. (Travel Devotion is nice but easily supplanted by gear as your levels increase, for instance. The best of the devotions that I can think of that requires a turn attempt to activate is Death Devotion, and that's only because getting no-save negative levels through gear is phenomenally expensive.)
I'd strongly suggest checking out the shopping list in my signature to see what you can do with equipment at particular levels, then see what remains from character levels. Doubling up on what you can easily do with gold and gear is not wise, while doing your own thing and rounding it out with equipment is.
The only other links I'd suggest are the Assassin's Speed and Quiet Murder builds in my signature. The former is a factotum/warblade indended as a technical fighter instead of a skill monkey (it's themed off of Assassin's Creed, naturally), but it should show you how to get a lot of bang for relatively little buck by combining those classes' lower-level abilities. The latter isn't a factotum build at all, but it's an example of a skill-monkey build that would fit naturally into your group (it uses wilderness rogue) while still keeping a core combat stunt open (in this case, Staggering Strike, which comes online at level 9; before that it has a lot of precision damage and a smooth feat progression to aid in its delivery. Yes, sneak attack is easy to block - but that's where equipment comes into play. Also, it's a RadicalTaoist build, and he never assumes any equipment, which is why Weapon Finesse is in there instead of Feycraft.). This may continue your "ritual", as you describe. |
| #6Luna_TriggerJun 04, 2015 12:14:38 |
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| #7Slagger_the_ChuulJun 05, 2015 1:51:32 |
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| #8Tr0usersJun 06, 2015 2:45:18 | So obviously I got two thirds of the way through replying to all of this when Firefox crashed. I don't know why I imagined it wouldn't. If some of this seems a bit brief and impatient it's because I've already typed it once, and it's too annoying to go through it all at such length again.
Anyway, this is what I was waiting for. It's what comes of reading handbooks, I guess. Whoever wrote the one I looked at was very enthusiastic about the Swashbuckler dip. To be honest, I'd already decided to drop it and Human Paragon in exchange for more Factotum levels.
I haven't been playing all that long, I suppose - about eight years. It's true that I only know a small fraction of what's there in terms of character building options, and it seems that similar can be said of some of the people who write handbooks on the internet as well. That's why I'm always sure to come here to consult with you guys and your weird encyclopedic knowledge, to find out how to do stuff right.
I'm generally happy dropping the dips if I can replicate the relevent effects some other way and get more Factotum levels (we're starting at level 1, by the way). My main query is about losing the Cloistered Cleric level. I was pretty keen on getting Travel Devotion. Like I say, I'm a little concerned about my mediocre AC and HP scores and was envisioning avoiding being hit by moving in and tumbling out of melee each round. I know there's equipment that can let me do that, or something similar, but it's all limited uses. With Travel Devotion and the six Turn Undead uses I'd have access to from 1 level of Cloistered Cleric, I'd have four one minute periods of using Travel Devotion at will each day. It seems as though I'd need to buy a hell of a lot of anklets to be able to do that, and bloodspikes are cheap but how many would I have to buy each day to replicate four minutes of Travel Devotion? As I'm starting at level 1, I'm concerned that it could be quite a while before I'm able to afford to buy all this stuff. Can somebody show me a practical way to do this? Or am I just worrying too much about defence?
Beyond that, Knowledge Devotion looked nice, but I'm not overly fussed about it, and I'm not really at all bothered about Trickery Devotion, in fact I was planning to replace it with Time domain - Improved Initiative would be handy for helping me get attacks in on flat-footed opponents.
Aye, I realised that Warblade had better synergy - I thought that Swordsage might possibly make up for it by offering more maneuvers. To be honest, the main reason I went with Swordsge is that I'm already playing a Warblade(/Bard) (for which, incidentally, I have a feeling Tempest was the main person helping me to sort the build out about a couple or so years ago), and I wanted to try something new. Still, it's only one level. So at what level should I take the Warblade dip, and what maneuvers would you recommend?
On to feats... I've seen that Item Familiar is generally considered to be too powerful. A lot of comments that I've read have said that this is mainly due to the part relating to XP. Would you agree? Because I wasn't intending to use that feature anyway, as I don't want to be advancing faster than the other players - personally, I would classify that as fairly douchey behaviour. I'm mainly after the bonus skill points.
Yes, Able Learner becomes pretty pointless if I'm Factotuming most of the way.
About Nymph's Kiss... DMs in my group aren't really all that strict about these things. For example, I've been playing a character with Words of Creation without any problem. But supposing my DM was adhering strictly to these things, what sort of problems do the exalted feats throw up? I just wanna know how much I'm getting away with using WoC, and how much I would be getting away with if I used NK.
I'll let FMI go - I wasn't sure whether I could qualify for it or not, anyway.
So, now that I'm going full Factotum for 19 levels, I'm looking at Cunning Brilliance and assuming it can do some pretty awesome stuff. As I say, my knowledge is very limited, so I'm curious to know what people's favourite uses for this ability are. I'll be extremely surprised if we get up to that level (although we're playing online, so might have a better chance of keeping things together for longer than usual), but I'm interested to know what the character would be capable of doing.
Cheers guys! |