| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1bulwerDec 29, 2008 11:08:21 | I'm making a backup character for an ongoing campaign, and I'd like to play something different, probably with LA. This is my first time building a character that's not LA+0. The party, as a whole, is powergamed to hell and back (with challenges to match), and I lack the knowledge to make something that really pops on my own. Ability scores are of a "write something down" variety, and par is (seriously) about a +20 total modifier before racial and other adjustments. Aging is perfectly okay (old looks good to me: +2 mental, -3 physical total), and flaws are a-ok too. I was thinking something Finessing (a pixie Swashbuckler/something else?) or otherwise fun to play in large combats. Bard also seems like a good time, though I'm not sure what the "best" build is, seeing as how the good bard stuff isn't really concentrated in any one book. Does anyone have any suggestions for races with manageable LA and classes that go well with them? EDIT: starting at at least 8th level. |
| #2pithicaDec 29, 2008 11:23:00 | Sylph MM2 p.192 3 Outsider hit dice (Full BAB, Monk Saves, 8+Int skills). LA+5 (ECL 8). In exchange you get Greater Invis at will as an (Sp), Summon Elemental (Large any type) 1/day as an (Sp), Full outsider traits, SR14 (Meh), Wild Empathy (Ex) (as druid), and full sorceror progression based on your level +4. This means, (unless you're DM rules it differently than mine), you cast as a Sorceror 7 at ECL 8 (meh), but no matter what class you take going forward, you continue to cast at -1 ECL as a sorceror. If you play with ECL buyback, by 20, you'll cast as a 20th sorceror no matter what classes you take for your other 13 levels. (I'd personally go Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 2/Planar Shephard 8 if I could get away with it.) If you're DM rules that it only counts for racial hitdice, just take outsider levels for full BAB, 8+Int skills, and monk saves and be a 'gish'/skillmonkey. At 20, you'll have a BAB of 16, with 16 d8 hitdice, 16th level monk saves, and 20th level sorceror casting. Not a bad deal. Evil? Don't like Fey? Necropolitan is a non-LA template from Libris Mortis that works really well with Caster builds. Otherwise.... emplates: Guide to Templates Master Template List Low ECL/LA templates/races |
| #3true_shinkenDec 29, 2008 18:45:18 | Actually, the text just says caster level and not full progression. |
| #4emyDec 29, 2008 19:44:53 | You may find this thread (or its somewhat more updated bizarro universe counterpart) interesting. Honestly though, if "The party, as a whole, is powergamed to hell and back", which I read as "highly optimized", I'd be somewhat reluctant to play a high LA or RHD race, since class features pretty much always eclipse racial options. (With a few borked exceptions like shaedlings.) |
| #5pithicaDec 29, 2008 20:57:20 | Actually, the text just says caster level and not full progression. It says 'Cast spells as a Sorcerer' and says it's caster level equals it's Hit Dice +4, then lists the full spell progression and spells known for a 7th level Sorcerer (with its Charisma bonus spells included) which is its base hit dice +4. I can't read that any other way than that it get's full sorcerer progression based on its hit-dice + 4 (even if it's just Racial hitdice). The 3.5 update booklet for the MM2 does nothing but add Wild Empathy, modify it's skills, and give it an LA (+5). Is it potentially borked? Well, yeah, and if you choose to read it as JUST Caster level and not progression, that's completely your prerogative. But it's a valid interpretation of the text as written that it gets full progression. |
| #6phoenix00Dec 29, 2008 21:39:47 | It says 'Cast spells as a Sorcerer' and says it's caster level equals it's Hit Dice +4, then lists the full spell progression and spells known for a 7th level Sorcerer (with its Charisma bonus spells included) which is its base hit dice +4. I can't read that any other way than that it get's full sorcerer progression based on its hit-dice + 4 (even if it's just Racial hitdice). The 3.5 update booklet for the MM2 does nothing but add Wild Empathy, modify it's skills, and give it an LA (+5). And in savage species it offers another interperation, in savage species whenever it says when text refers to base hit dice+X in a monster entry it is referring to monster hit dice and not class hit dice. Thus you can advance your slyph hit dice to the maximum hit dice and after that you have to take sorcerer levels or abjurant champion. ------ regardless if the multiple interpretations of slyph and similar classes weren't so iffy you would see a lot more slyph/ur priests and similar builds on the co boards if slyph works the way you argue. |
| #7BalthanonDec 29, 2008 22:06:45 | I can't read that any other way than that it get's full sorcerer progression based on its hit-dice + 4 (even if it's just Racial hitdice). The 3.5 update booklet for the MM2 does nothing but add Wild Empathy, modify it's skills, and give it an LA (+5). Sylph is more than decent with racial hit dice + 4 sorcerer casting, which is almost certainly what they were intending. Playing it with any hit dice might as well be taking a gestalt character and playing it in a standard campaign. For the original character, Pixie's are definitely fun as well. If you want a more serious finesse type character, you could also try playing a Marrulurk out of Sandstorm. They're ECL 4, with 3 monstrous humanoid hit dice, and they they get a Charisma based Death Attack, sneak attack, and poison use. Combining them with a couple of levels of Swordsage (nice with the +6 Wisdom modifier) and then Assassin could be fun. Another fun race that I've always wanted to try is the Petal-- they're Tiny versions of the Pixie race without a lot of the spell-like abilities basically, with +2 LA. They make for very interesting warlocks. |
| #8WyvernhandDec 29, 2008 22:52:17 | Gravetouched Ghoul from LM is a pretty solid +2 LA. The stat bonuses are great, and the paralysis is a killer, literally. Since paralysis is +cha based, you can't go wrong with cha based classes like evil paladin variants, rebalanced Hexblade, and maybe multiclassing into Blackguard. That would be pretty strong. Take Improved Paralyis from LM, and Ability Focus and you've got a nice +6 to your DC. Hex and Dark Companion (PHBII) makes for another +4ish, and Blackguard's Aura of Dispair tacks on another +2 to the DC. You could crank that fort save DC up so high, high fort save foes won't be able to make the save on anything but a 20. It'll work on anything but other undead, constructs, dragons, and elves (wtf?). Still, pretty strong for a +2 LA template. |
| #9carnivoreDec 30, 2008 4:13:58 | i agree with the Pixie idea... very easy, and very fun to play... survivable and contributes to the rest of the party in a meaningful way ... try this: ECL 8 Pixie 4/ Warlock 4 Attributes: (32pt buy) 10 Str(14-4 racial) 24 Dex(15 +8 racial +1 lvl) 16 Con(16) 18 Int(12 +6 racial) 14 Wis(10 +4 racial) 16 Cha(10 +6 racial) Feats: Dodge(pixie bonus) Alertness(pixie bonus) Weapon Finnesse(pixie bonus) 1st lvl: Flyby Attack 3rd lvl: Darkstalker Invocations: Least: All Seeing Eyes (CM): +6 Search and spot bonus and comprehend language for written things Baleful Utterance: Unlimited Shatters as the spell. See the Unseen: See Invisibility -and- Darkvision. makes a great scout and support artillery :D |
| #10pithicaDec 30, 2008 7:12:34 | And in savage species it offers another interperation, in savage species whenever it says when text refers to base hit dice+X in a monster entry it is referring to monster hit dice and not class hit dice. Thus you can advance your slyph hit dice to the maximum hit dice and after that you have to take sorcerer levels or abjurant champion. Ahem...I did say, thrice now, that a DM may read that as racial hit-dice, and that this is also a valid reading. I am not arguing that there is no other way to interpret 'hit dice' than the most beneficial way. I even pointed out in my original post that just taking outsider hit dice wasn't a bad option, what with the monk saves, full bab, and 8+int skills. Even if you have to stop at 9 hitdice worth of outsider, that's still a solid base for a gish build, and with LA buyback you can still get to a +16 BAB and 20 effective levels of sorceror by 20. You've got to work (or steal someone else's build) to get similar results from a human or elf, and unless you're doing a DP gish, you're almost always behind on caster levels. |
| #11widowJan 01, 2009 21:03:39 | You might also want to look into the sharn from Monsters of Faerun. It has 4HD and a +5 LA (I am sure you can start with one less HD until you hit 9th). It casts spells as a 7th level sorc and a 5th level cleric, gets +8 or +10 to all stats, regen, portals to attack though, 9 arms, and 3 heads. Not as good as a slyph, but is already setup for Mystic theurge entry. Now my personal favorite, should be to play a Kaorti from the Fiend Folio, going into the Fiend of Possession PrC in the same book. Something like: 2 HD/ +2 LA/ Bloodline 1/ Telepathy 1/ Fiend of Possession 1/ Bloodline 1/ Thrallherd 1/Fiend of Possession 4/ Bloodline 1/ Fiend of Possession 1/ Fiend of Corruption 1/ open Feats L1 Martial Study (shadow hand style from book of 9 swords, gives Hide as a class skill) L3 Practiced Manifestor L6 Inquisitor Now the idea is this, you are never seen. FoP lets you possess objects or people giving them bonuses. Thrallherd is from the Expanded psionics handbook and basically gets slaves as if you had the leadership feat, except you get a new one 24 hours later if the first one is lost. This way you pick a cohort thrall that is your ride and replace as necessary. At level 2 of FoP, you get the ability to apply an enchancement bonus to a weapon equal to your class level (or weapon properties). Bloodline will advance this ability further, ending with a final bonus of +9. This allows you to give the weapon you possess Ever dancing from the Epic handbook. Then any weapon is your ride. It is possible to push this even further with Uncanny trickster or Legacy Champion advancing the class abilities of bloodline or FoP if you can get away with it. Late in FoP, you can give a person you ride a +4 stat bonus. Similarly Fiend of corruption allows you to get an addtional +3 to a stat. One bonus is unlisted, the other profane. Best of all, the Kaorti does not have to be evil, but will always count as evil for purposes of spells and powers. A link is below to several archived FoP threads. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-770860 Oh, and if you can get away with it. The petal from monster manual III is also a nice entry into warlock. It has a +2 LA cohort rating. |
| #1217flyingaxesJan 02, 2009 1:21:08 | How about playing a Unicorn? I know it sounds silly, and there's no official template out there, but following the rules for "monsters as characters" verbatim gives: Unicorns as Characters: • +10 Str, +6 Dex, +10 Con, +10 Wis, +14 Cha • Large size • Base land speed 60 ft. • Darkvision 60 ft. • A few nice immunities and spell-like abilities • 3 levels of Magic Beast, giving 3d10 hit dice, +3 BAB, +3 Fort +3 Ref +1 Will saves, and two feats • +6 Natural armor • Horn: a +3 natural weapon dealing 1d8 damage, as well as two 1d4 hooves • Automatic knowledge of sylvan and common • +4 LA If you can get your DM to let you play one (and maybe even shift the alignment away from CG), unicorns make excellent front-line tanks: fighters, barbarians, maybe even a tanking rogue or duelist. My personal favorite, though, was grabbing one level of shadow totem barbarian and then playing a unicorn cleric; with all the cleric's buff spells, it was a truly fearsome front-line fighter. And then I turned evil, and used those racial HD to boost the number/power of undead I could summon! The giant charisma bonus is excellent for divine metamagic or turning undead. Items are a bit tricky; you give up boots and gloves in exchange for horseshoes, but arguably you could wear rings on your tail or horn or ankles. |
| #13emyJan 02, 2009 3:16:55 | It's a shame the +4 LA on Unicorns is +4 (cohort). The Beguiler (Pikachu critter, Forgotten Realms: Shining South) suffers a similar problem. If you do end up going the Unicorn route, take a dip in Marshal. That absurd CHA has to be good for something :p |
| #1417flyingaxesJan 02, 2009 3:30:01 | Cohort? No worries! According to the SRD, monsters with (cohort) LA's are "questionable" but allowed, DM permitting. |
| #1517flyingaxesJan 02, 2009 3:50:19 | Well, according to the SRD, playing cohort monsters is allowable as long as your DM allows it. What to do with the high cha? How about a unicorn bard? Use perform (oratory) or (singing), and actually be useful in melee. Or a unicorn monk? You're fighting unarmed anyway, and you've got the stats for it. On a stranger note, there's always the unicorn rogue. Use your sky-high bluff and diplomacy to swindle people out of money! Or a unicorn assassin? Alter self will let you turn into a whole menagerie of fun critters. Or use it with a bunch of disguise ranks, skill-boosting items and maybe an item-familiar, and with any luck you'll be able to convince people you're a horse, a cow, or a giant cute puppy. Then use your death attack! The best part? Charge the other members of the party money in exchange for unicorn rides! |
| #16emyJan 02, 2009 4:06:42 | Rogue for bluffing? Are you sure you don't mean Factotum? Or Bard? Or Cloistered Cleric w/Trickery Domain? |
| #17phoenix00Jan 02, 2009 10:22:01 | If you do unicorn don't forget those horseshoes from savage species. With a little umd (to pretend you are a horse), you get thisWhen transformed, the horse gains a fly speed of 90 feet (good), +1d4 points of fire damage on each successful hoof attack, +2 Dexterity, +10 Intelligence, and +6 Charisma. all for a little over 30,000 gp. Note these bonuses are untyped ![]() |
| #18headofvecnaJan 02, 2009 15:50:04 | A wacky but brutal option would be an Anthropomorphic Giant Squid (SavSpec, 3HD LA +1) Lion Totem (CChamp) Barbarian 1 Chaos Monk 1 (DR335) Swordsage 2. This would net you 8 (or 8-11 with flailing strike) attacks on a charge, 7 2nd level manuevers, a 1st level and 2nd level stance, large size, great stats, and Wis to AC twice. |
| #1917flyingaxesJan 02, 2009 16:02:24 | Can paladins have magic beast mounts? If so, you could get a paladin in your party to use you as a mount, and rack up the massive mount bonuses. Otherwise, you could be a unicorn paladin. What would a unicorn paladin have as a mount? Maybe an elephant or a triceratops? If your DM lets you get away with it, why not ride a hill giant dire wereboar? Sure, you'd need to pay for a special unicorn saddle, but it would be worth it. Also, as squid are generally considered to have 2 arms and 8 other tentacles, would an anthropomorphic giant squid get to wear 3 pairs of boots? Because that would be pretty useful. |
| #20somethings90Jan 02, 2009 18:16:00 | A Shaeling (sp?) is a good choice if you want a broken character. I believe that it gives you ecl+4 and the ability to make any item out of shadow stuff. I think that it is in Monster Manual IV. If you want something that is less crazy, you could be a antropomorphic (sp?) bat druid. I don't have the stats with me, but It gives a high wisdom modifier. It is from Savage Species. |
| #21emyJan 02, 2009 19:47:17 | A Shaeling (sp?) is a good choice if you want a broken character. I believe that it gives you ecl+4 and the ability to make any item out of shadow stuff. I think that it is in Monster Manual IV. Shaedling (MM5). Also, please don't use one in a real game. Ever. |
| #22headofvecnaJan 02, 2009 22:35:31 | Anthro squids have 2 legs and 8 arms. But unless the DM was feeling generous, they'd still only get the normal number of body slots (just like only 2 of 10 fingers can be used for rings). |
| #23phoenix00Jan 02, 2009 23:48:26 | Can paladins have magic beast mounts? If so, you could get a paladin in your party to use you as a mount, and rack up the massive mount bonuses. From DMG page 200 PALADIN COHORT MOUNTS From DMG page 204 A paladin of 6th level or higher can use a celestial heavy warhorse, dire wolf, hippogriff, Large monstrous spider, Large shark, unicorn, celestial warpony, dire bat, dire badger, dire weasel, or giant lizard as a mount. From DMG page 205 3 Traditionally, unicorns only allow female human or female elf riders. Thus if you are willing to sacrifice 1 level of paladin mount abilities you can grab an unicorn mount. In addition if you are 12th level and take leadership, you can have a 10th level cohort, A Unicorn would have 4HD+4 LA for unicorn+2LA for paladin abilities. At level 13 you can give your paladin its first class level. Now the unicorn would receive bonus hit dice (not normal hit dice thus the bonus hit dice don't count toward your cohort's ecl for leadership) for being a paladin's mount. Assuming you have a typical paladin build of 12 levels that is an additional 6 bonus hit dice (since your paladin's level for a unicorn is really 11 since its 12-1). Now you being a paladin's mount for another player instead of a cohort isn't part of the rules officially. Maybe you can get your DM just to count it as an additional +2 LA like you do under the cohort LA. |
| #2417flyingaxesJan 03, 2009 3:30:29 | Excellent! But, now, here's the real kicker. A UNICORN, upon reaching its 12th class level, takes the Leadership feat. The unicorn has 15 character levels, and an ECL of 18 (due to LA buyoff). As its cohort, the unicorn selects a paladin, who is level 11 (due to the two level LA adjustment from combining cohort with mount). Sacrificing one level of mount bonuses for a unicorn mount, the paladin gives the unicorn +4 HD, +6 NA, +2 Str, Improved Evasion, and +10 speed. So the unicorn now has 19 character levels. Now, two things are possible. 1) The 4 "bonus" HD don't count towards character levels, and thus your ECL is still 18, less than actual character levels. 2) The 4 "bonus" HD do count towards character levels, and thus your ECL is 22; however, you now have 19 character levels, increasing your paladin's level to 15 and your mount bonus to +6 HD, which increases your character levels to 21 and your ECL to 24. A painless way to shoot to epic level! P.S. The stats for anthropomorphic bat are Small size, -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, fly 20 ft. (average), small size |