Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jean-jacques May 05, 2009 9:21:22	This is more a thread to post just for the fun of it. Here's the rundown: > Overall plan is to come up with a 20th level build for an MMA (mixed martial arts aka UFC etc... type fighter) style character. > Books allowed: All 3.5 WOTC material, no dragon magazine or 3rd party material. > Use a 28 point buy system. > Again keep in mind that the character is supposed to be an MMA fighter meaning the only thing being used to fight is his natural body attacks. Natural tendencies are to go monk, for the increased unarmed damage etc, but I am still curious to see how people would go about creating there own idea of the character type.
#2 dandu May 05, 2009 11:47:17	Swordsage? Barbarian/Fist of the Forest?
#3 kaszman May 05, 2009 12:13:57	personally I would go for something from the Unearthed Arcana. either Fighter; Thug Varient. getting the unarmed stuff for free and some more streetwise skills. or Monk; Martial styles Varient, if theres one you like. Barbarian has some Varients in there too...but they're not that great. Swordsage has an unarmed varient too...but its very cheesy, being in the tome of battle. which is one of those books DM's like to ban with good reason. Personally I'd go Fighter(thug)1 -> your choice, maybe a monk grappling style or a good old fashioned barbarian - frenzied berserker build. I favour the second...nothing like being knocked around by Frenzied Raging man in a loincloth. also if allowed you're wanting to get two weapon fighting for fists and improved unarmed (improved natural attack) if you go for some monk levels as they count as natural weapons. just some basics I was contemplating.
#4 naanomi May 05, 2009 12:39:59	Human with Jotunbrund grappling build... in one on one combat, confined to a little area, that is what will win the fight. Total combat domination. Throw in psionics for extra fun if you want to.
#5 streakster May 05, 2009 12:51:34	Unarmed Swordsage, hands down. Ah, Tome of Battle, the best book ever published for 3.5. Is there any meleer you can't make better?
#6 naanomi May 05, 2009 13:15:41	Unarmed Swordsage, hands down. Ah, Tome of Battle, the best book ever published for 3.5. Is there any meleer you can't make better? The Tome did little to help out grappling... and I suspect that in a 'small arena' style combat, a Unarmed Swordsage would have trouble with a dedicated grappler. Thier BaB is lower, and less likely to be so dedicated to strength (let alone not seeking size increases)... once grappled and pinned, which in a small arena is basically going to happen, what is the swordsage going to do?
#7 dr_rocktopus May 05, 2009 13:48:26	Teleport out of it with a move action or a swift action?
#8 naanomi May 05, 2009 13:49:46	Strange, I've read the list of things you can do while pinned... use martial maneuvers doesn't seem to be one of them. Am I wrong about that?
#9 carnivore May 05, 2009 15:15:39	try this: Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15 feats Improved Unarmed(monk) Combat Reflexes(monk) Improved Grapple(monk) Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler) Unnerving Calm(Warblade) Blade Meditation(Warblade) Ironheart(warblade) Carmondine Monk Superior Unarmed Strike 2 weapon fighting Improved 2 weapon fighting Double Hit Robilars Gambit Close Quarter Fighting Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7) 16 Str(base 10 + 6 item) 26 Dex(base 14 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent) 20 Con(base 14 + 6 item) 30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent) 16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item) 16 Cha(base 10 + 6 item) at 20th lvl......BAB +19 Full Attack 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or amulet) +32/+27/+22/+17 and 3d6(2d6 @ +1 Size)+10 Int +3 Str= 3d6+13 Each thus when flurry and 2 Wpn fight and imp 2wpn fight...attack bonus is as follows: +30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+15 and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at: 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 Int(Warblade) +42/+42...and 3d6+23damage he gets: Int to Damage(Unarmed) Int to AC Int to Confirm Crits 2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...) Int to Attack for AoO 2xInt to Damage for AoO Dex to Attack Dex to AC Dex to Initiative Manuvers: Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Clarity Action Before Thought Rapid Counter Pearl of Black Doubt(stance) Tiger Claw: Hunters Stance Wolverine Stance Wolf Pack Tactics Stance Pouncing Charge Dancing Mongoose Raging Mongoose Girallons Windmill Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study Cloak of Deception Shadow Blink For combat..... While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened... he can easily beat Grapplers... since he gets 2 attacks(with additional 8d6 damage each) if they try to start a grapple, and adds the Damage to his check to prevent the grapple he Will go first... and will get some major damage... even more if you attack him back :D
#10 awaken_D_M_golem May 05, 2009 15:59:24	I googled the ring sizes, for purposes of Reach. Boxing square rings are 16', 18', or 20' across ... so 30' reach covers corner to corner.. MMA octagon is 30' across at the entrance (carry the sigma) needing 35' reach for the whole ring. 30' or 35' reach depending on the ring shape. ** I'm partial to the Swift 1st level power Linked Psychic Reformation, re-do depending on the fight style. This would kick in during round 2. Of course 8 ML is not all that Fighter-ish. But the glowing eyes might freak out a low-magic fighter. The Gracie family sits outside the ring yelling in "plays" , relative to whats happening. So do the various coaches of the other fighters. Aid Another ... relative to the amount of help. Might need complicated initiative connecting / delay or ready tactics.
#11 SwordDisciple May 05, 2009 17:47:42	try this: Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15 feats Improved Unarmed(monk) Combat Reflexes(monk) Improved Grapple(monk) Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler) Unnerving Calm(Warblade) Blade Meditation(Warblade) Ironheart(warblade) Carmondine Monk Superior Unarmed Strike 2 weapon fighting Improved 2 weapon fighting Double Hit Robilars Gambit Close Quarter Fighting Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7) 16 Str(base 10 + 6 item) 26 Dex(base 14 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent) 20 Con(base 14 + 6 item) 30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent) 16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item) 16 Cha(base 10 + 6 item) at 20th lvl......BAB +19 Full Attack 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or amulet) +32/+27/+22/+17 and 3d6(2d6 @ +1 Size)+10 Int +3 Str= 3d6+13 Each thus when flurry and 2 Wpn fight and imp 2wpn fight...attack bonus is as follows: +30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+15 and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at: 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 Int(Warblade) +42/+42...and 3d6+23damage he gets: Int to Damage(Unarmed) Int to AC Int to Confirm Crits 2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...) Int to Attack for AoO 2xInt to Damage for AoO Dex to Attack Dex to AC Dex to Initiative Manuvers: Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Clarity Action Before Thought Rapid Counter Pearl of Black Doubt(stance) Tiger Claw: Hunters Stance Wolverine Stance Wolf Pack Tactics Stance Pouncing Charge Dancing Mongoose Raging Mongoose Girallons Windmill Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study Cloak of Deception Shadow Blink For combat..... While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened... he can easily beat Grapplers... since he gets 2 attacks(with additional 8d6 damage each) if they try to start a grapple, and adds the Damage to his check to prevent the grapple he Will go first... and will get some major damage... even more if you attack him back :D Nice Build Carnivore but what happens if a Grappler does get a hold of him? What's his Grapple check like? He'd get what 4 Grapple checks +1 from Flurry.. So 5 checks to get out of a Grapplers grip? (Just a guess - at +25?)
#12 ithamar May 05, 2009 18:17:43	Strange, I've read the list of things you can do while pinned... use martial maneuvers doesn't seem to be one of them. Am I wrong about that? You can use most manuevers while grappling, but the Sage did clarify if you are actually pinned you cannot. But since it usually takes a separate round to pin after being grappled, the swordsage still has a round to teleport away.
#13 SwordDisciple May 05, 2009 18:29:21	No it takes a grapple check to pin.. You get the number of grapple checks that you get attacks from your BAB. A Monks flurry ability adds one to this. Thus you would get 5 Grapple checks from a high BAB Monk using flurry.. So in one round you could 1. Initiate Grapple 2. Grapple Check - damage opponent with natural or light weapon 3. Grapple Check - damage opponent with natural or light weapon 4. Grapple Check - damage opponent with natural or light weapon 5. Pin Opponent You can use most manuevers while grappling, but the Sage did clarify if you are actually pinned you cannot. But since it usually takes a separate round to pin after being grappled, the swordsage still has a round to teleport away. That right there is one of many reasons alot of DM's choose to ban the Tome of Battle
#14 ithamar May 05, 2009 18:54:36	But typically you have to move towards someone, which means only a single attack. If you are silly enough to allow your opponent to get a full attack on you, you deserve to be pinned. And if a DM bans ToB because a swordsage can teleport away, I certainly hope they also ban wizards and sorcerers... By the way, does flurry actually allow another grapple attempt? I was under the impression that pretty much everything to do with grappling / pinning was based off of pure BAB.
#15 aelryinth May 05, 2009 18:58:47	You can use most manuevers while grappling, but the Sage did clarify if you are actually pinned you cannot. But since it usually takes a separate round to pin after being grappled, the swordsage still has a round to teleport away. Uh, there's a list of things you can do while grappled, and initiate manuvers is not one of them. The Sage actually clarified THAT. The only manuvers you could use were those that didn't require a standard action, like Boosts and perhaps COunters (free and immediate and maybe quick actions). So most strikes and special moves were right out. ==Aelryinth
#16 SwordDisciple May 05, 2009 19:23:09	But typically you have to move towards someone, which means only a single attack. A Pouncing Grappler is a wonderful thing.. If you are silly enough to allow your opponent to get a full attack on you, you deserve to be pinned. And if a DM bans ToB because a swordsage can teleport away, I certainly hope they also ban wizards and sorcerers... No he doesn't ban TOB because of that one manoeuvre, he ban's it because of all the manoeuvres in the book.. Some of them are just pure cheese and have abilities that should remain magical in nature. By the way, does flurry actually allow another grapple attempt? I was under the impression that pretty much everything to do with grappling / pinning was based off of pure BAB. My impression as well but I've read and re-read the grappling builds on here and the monk builds use flurry to gain an extra Grapple check. The wording of grappling in the PHB, If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). show's that a monk gains an extra natural attack (unarmed strike) during a flurry (or 2 at 11th level). Thus flurry also works in a grapple as grapple checks. :D
#17 Senevri May 05, 2009 19:23:18	Jotunbrud Bear Totem Barbarian + Reaping Mauler + Chaos Monk or Swordsage. Setting Sun is more throwy. Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw have some. Since carnivore did his "try this" thing already, I'm gonna go and actually put in an iota of effort: Okay, most strikes, boosts and counters still apply. If you daze or stun the opponent, it's free exit from grapple at least. Stone Dragon: Crushing Weight of the Mountain: Constrict while grappling Roots of the Mountain: +10 to resist grapple checks Tiger Claw: Wolverine stance: use any 1-h weapon to strike while grappling, without penalty. +4 to damage vs. larger opponents. So, not that much grapple-specific, but as said, most boosts, counters and strikes still work fine during grapple.
#18 Wyvernhand May 05, 2009 19:31:00	Human 1 Monk1 Monastic Training, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple 2 Monk2 Combat Reflexes 3 PsyWar1 Tashalatora, Weapon Focus: UAS 4 PsyWar2 Power Attack 5 PsyWar3 6 PsyWar4 Practiced Manifester (PsyWar) 7 PsyWar5 8 PsyWar6 9 PsyWar7 Link Power: Hustle 10+ PsyWar Manifest Expansion to grow so large that you fill the whole ring. Manifest Strength of my Enemy to own your opponents str. Manifest Grip of Iron to strangle your foe with your bare hands. Manifest Claws of the Beast to rend your foe limb from limb. Manifest Form of Doom to MWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!
#19 SwordDisciple May 05, 2009 19:34:43	Where is Chaos Monk from? How about this build: Build: Ravage the Reaping Mauler Human Monk 4 / Fighter 2 / Reaping Mauler 5 / Bloodhound 5 / Tattoo'd Monk 4 Templates: Feral Lloth-touched Stats: Str. 30 (base 16 +10 templates +4 levels) Dex. 13 (base 14 -2 templates +1 Levels) Con. 22 (base 14 +8 templates) Int. 6 (base 10 -4 templates) Wis. 14 (base 12 +2 templates) Cha. 8 Tattoos: Scorpion: 2/day force opponent to use his lowest ability modifier when making an attack roll Crab: Damage Reduction 4/Magic Feats: Jotunbrud Combat Reflexes Mobility Endurance Improved Unarmed Strike Superior Unarmed Strike Improved Grapple Improved Grab Stunning Fist Track Defensive Sweep Robilars Gambit Close-Quarters Fighting Earths Embrace Clever Wrestling Evasive Reflexes Unarmed Strike: +28/+23/+18/+13 for 2d6+10 +2 Str per hit Flurry: +26/+26/+21/+16/+11 for 2d6+10 +2 Str per hit However Grappling is where this guy gets into his own.. Grapple Check: +38 without any magical effects (and there are plenty out there eg, "Gloves of Titans Grip +8 to grapple") He can also Rake you or Rend you.. He runs up and pounces on you, hits you and uses Improved Grab to start a grapple. He then pummels you 3 times and pins you. That round you lose 8 points of Str. He continues holding the pin for 1 round and you have to save or go to sleep (4 hits -8 Str). He holds the pin for 3 rounds and if you are still awake you have to save or die. All the while you are taking 1d12+Str damage for all the rounds you are pinned and he can still hit you while you're pinned with each strike making you lose 2 points of Str. (Oh and he heals through Fast Healing:5) Boost his grappling ability, wisdom and strength to make him really nasty. I think he'd have a decent show against Carnivores build (don't get me wrong - I do like most of Carnivores builds) too, even without TOB cheese
#20 carnivore May 06, 2009 4:46:19	very nice Build.... lets see how well he does do....: for Grappling: +38 grapple check.... for your build my guy gets: AoO vs Grapple(Close Quarter Fighting) Close-Quarters Fighting[General, Fighter](CWar p97)req:Base Attack Bonus +3 You receive an Attack of Opportunity when a creature attempts to Grapple you, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a Grapple without an Attack of Opportunity. If you cause damage on your Attack of Opportunity, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial Grapple check to see if the creature starts its Grapple. This Feat does not grant an extra Attack of Opportunity. but my build has this also: Int to Damage(Unarmed) Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...) Int to Attack for AoO 2xInt to Damage for AoO thus his grapple check to oppose a grapple is: Base attack bonus(+19) + Strength modifier(+3) + special size modifier(+0) + 2x(Int to Damage(Unarmed)(+10) + Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...)(+10) + (2xInt to Damage for AoO(+20)) = +102 vs Grapple because he gets 2 attacks for every AoO with Double Hit and the damage is added to his grapple check i dont think he has too much to worry about from grapplers.... also since he is a Monk he does FULL Damage with unarmed Strikes in a Grapple if it was possible but he wont even need to worry... he will have a Ring of Freedom of Movement = Immunity to Grapple but if they try.... he just beats on them a lot for every attempt Grapple rules GRAPPLE Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1. Grappling Consequences While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited. No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while grappling. No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm). You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.
#21 SwordDisciple May 06, 2009 5:20:05	Haha Fair enough.. (And very nice ) So instead he uses a Belt of Battle and a Ring of Blinking, and initially flurry's you for 10 hits while you get miss chances.. thats -20 Str.. You collapse as you no longer have any Str. He casually leans over, takes off your Ring of Freedom of Movement and crushes your skull.. ;)
#22 carnivore May 06, 2009 5:39:41	[edit note... i didnt see the Ring of Blinking... so the results will be different... will work them out later with the Miss chance... i get 50% for each attack, you get 20% for each attack... but i get More Attacks..... remember i will go first] except that... for every attack you make i get 2.... at +42/+42...and 3d6+23damage... and my damage is not Str based... so while you might drop my Str a couple of Points.... you will Drop a lot of Hp say you attack with a Full Attack and Flurry: +26/+26/+21/+16/+11 for 2d6+10 +2 Str per hit vs AC 35(base 10 + 8 Armor(Bracers) + 5 Deflection(ring) +5 Natural(Amulet) +8 Dex +10 Int -4 Robilars Gambit +1 Haste) 1st attack:... using averages... you will hit and do 17 damage +2 Str i get to hit back(Robilars Gambit) twice and since Both will hit... i do additional damage(8d6) since he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill = 66 +(8d6 = 28) = 94 damage results: me: - 17 hp and Str down to 14.... effect nothing, my build is not Str based you: -94 hp 2nd Attack of Full attack = same as 1st attack results: me: - 34 hp and Str down to 12.... effect nothing, my build is not Str based you: -188 hp 3rd attack of Full attack ..... will probably miss most of the time, but say it actually hits... results same as first. results: me: - 51 hp and Str down to 10.... effect nothing, my build is not Str based you: -282 hp just how much hp do you have?(im guessing about 304hp using MAX hp possible) i have 326hp with MAX hp possible the results of the next attack in your full attack are very bad for you.... since Robilars Gambit allows me to attack you back even if you miss what do you think of the results :D
#23 SwordDisciple May 06, 2009 5:55:01	Lol, not good for my character. Very good.. However you only hit 50% of the time. Another option, if I can hide (And there are ways to get Hide in Plain sight, with at least a +40 bonus for this build) and stand next to you then I get an AoO on you unless you move. Hide again, another AoO. Really, against your character I would have to be lucky to win.. If I was to make the build to combact yours I would get in Raptor School to negate your AoO's but this is just a general build as yours is. I do have the option of: You attack me, I step away from you so you don't hit and thus your sequence ends.. (However I do not know about your stance - Our group thinks it's too unbalanced and so I'm not overly familiar with it).. So I'll conceed your build would win :D and thanks for posting your build Carnivore
#24 carnivore May 06, 2009 8:13:20	you are welcome.... but you brought up a great idea to work on: Maximising the Miss Chance ... for a Melee focused Build.... combined with a Retributive Striking build(like mine) there are several other ways to do it... Reach Builds that Trip are very strong for this type of thing Charging Triping Builds also very strong there are many other Tactical based builds that can do well vs many opponents.... the trick is guessing what someone else might make and making a Counter build...... it is very difficult to do Everything well vs every build :D
#25 ithamar May 06, 2009 10:49:01	Uh, there's a list of things you can do while grappled, and initiate manuvers is not one of them. The Sage actually clarified THAT. The only manuvers you could use were those that didn't require a standard action, like Boosts and perhaps COunters (free and immediate and maybe quick actions). So most strikes and special moves were right out. Not entirely accurate actually. Can a martial adept (Tome of Battle) initiate a maneuver or change a stance while grappling? While pinned? The grapple rules provide a list of actions available to a grappling character, but it’s obviously not an exhaustive list. (It doesn’t, for example, mention “speaking” as an option.) It’s really intended more as a description of how grappling alters many normal actions available to characters (such as attacking and moving). Thus, the DM must apply a bit of his own common sense when adjudicating any grapple situation. Any maneuver that involves an attack may be used while grappling, as long as it’s made with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling (PHB 156). It’s easiest to rule that other maneuvers and stances can be initiated normally while grappling unless something intrinsic to the maneuver indicates otherwise. (For example, a maneuver that requires movement can’t normally be initiated while in a grapple because the grappling character can’t move freely.) Many maneuvers and stances are designed for use by grappling characters, and it seems counterintuitive to restrict those options. A grappling character is somewhat limited in his physical mobility, but to prevent him from initiating a maneuver or stance seems unreasonably limiting. The Sage strongly recommends that a pinned character not be allowed to initiate a maneuver or stance. The rules clearly state that “to initiate a maneuver or stance, you must be able to move” (Tome of Battle, page 38), which suggests that a pinned character shouldn’t be able to accomplish this.
#26 naanomi May 06, 2009 13:04:01	Can we have a few clarifications from the original poster as to guidelines? When I think MMA, I don't think teleportation or other maneuvers that are clearly supernatural in nature, nor do I think 'cloak of displacement'...
#27 carnivore May 06, 2009 15:00:48	is it supposed to be a Fantasy setting .... if so i have another fun build that i will post later here is a Fun Core Only Build: ] BAB +15 Attributes: (25pt buy) (Racial mods:+8 Str,+4 Con,-4 Int,-2 Cha) Base 22 Str(14 +8 Racial) 14 Dex(14) 18 Con(14 +4 Racial) 5 Int(9 -4 Racial) 14 Wis(14) 6 Cha(8 -2 Racial) @ ECL 20 36 Str(14 +8 Racial +3 lvls +5 Inherent +6 Belt) 18 Dex(14 +4 Gloves) 18 Con(14 +4 Racial) 5 Int(9 -4 Racial) 22 Wis(14 +4 Inherent +4 Amulet) 6 Cha(8 -2 Racial) Feats: Power Attack(monstrous humanoid bonus) Cleave(monstrous humanoid bonus) Improved Sunder(monstrous humanoid bonus) Imp Unarmed Strike(monk bonus) Imp Grapple(monk bonus) Deflect Arrows(monk bonus) Imp Trip(monk Bonus) 1st lvl: Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike) 3rd lvl: Improved Bull Rush 6th lvl: Improved Natural Attack(Gore) 9th lvl: Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) 12th lvl: Run Equipment: 110000gp +4 Tome of Wis 110000gp +4 Tome of Str 49000gp +6 Belt of Str + Monks belt 16000gp +4 Glove of dex 70000gp +4 Amulet of Wis +3 Amulet of mighty fists 64000gp +8 Bracers of Armor 8000gp +2 Ring of Protection 2500gp Ring of Sustenance 9000gp +3 Cloak of Resistance 2500gp Eyes of the Eagle Lots of Money to Spend.... ;) Minotaur traits MINOTAURS AS CHARACTERS Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits. +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma. Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet. A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5. Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks. Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats. Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons. +5 natural armor bonus. Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8). Special Attacks (see above): Powerful Charge (Ex): A minotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +9 attack bonus that deals 4d6+6 points of damage. Special Qualities (see above): scent, Natural Cunning (Ex): Although minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells, prevents them from ever becoming lost, and enables them to track enemies. Further, they are never caught flat-footed. Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran. Favored Class: Barbarian. Level adjustment +2.
#28 awaken_D_M_golem May 06, 2009 15:30:24	Magic Items ... ought (!) ... to be restricted. As in: One set of Gloves / Gauntlets / Whatever you want to call it and One Tunic / Loincloth / Kilt / Shorts-of-Doom and that's it. Although, almost all martial arts movies, have the cheater, that puts Dust of Sneezing and Choking in pill form. So ... two items only. This just means the Ring of Freedom of Movement is a Glove Set, and has other stuff on it too. ** Snarkers - Don't forget the Ankle Tape of "Dexterity" - I hate that stuff ... ** I almost forgot Profession Wrestling. The ring size there, doesn't really matter, cause they spend some time out of the ring. maybe ~2 rounds { ... as in a slow 10 count ... } to get back in to the ring ?! 20' ring has 5' sides, that provide Partial Cover 30' Octo has 10' sides, that provide Cover. ** Wasn't the Fat Jumper build pretty good for this? Jump check from the turn-buckles Mr King Kong Bundy !! :D
#29 SwordDisciple May 06, 2009 18:22:53	Sounds like a good idea awaken_D_M_golem fair enough too as in MMA you wear shorts and gloves.. And another nice Build Carnivore It is said that "To better yourself is to test yourself against your betters" and so I had an idea to beat your other build (and I think he'd give anyone a go really..) Hope you like it :D Build: Thump.. (You wouldn't like me when I'm angry) Half-Orc Monk 4 / Half-Orc Paragon 3 / Fighter 2 / Rune-Scarred Beserker 10 / Frenzied Beserker 1 Templates: (bought off) Draconic Feral Lloth-touched Stats: Str: 42 (base 16 +2 Race +2 Paragon +12 templates +4 levels +6 Belt) Dex: 20 (base 15 -2 templates +1 Levels +6 Gloves) Con: 24 (base 14 +10 templates) Int: 6 (base 12 -2 Race -4 templates) Wis: 10 (base 8 +2 templates) Cha: 6 (base 8 -2 Race) Hp: 277 Runes carved into skin: 1st: True Strike 2nd: 3rd: Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon 4th: Improved Invisibilty, Righteous Might 5th: Antimagic Field, Heal Magic Items: Belt of Battle (enhanced with Str +6) Gloves of Titans Grip (enhanced with Dex +6 & Eager +2 Initiative) Feats: Combat Reflexes Diehard Improved Unarmed Strike Improved Grapple Improved Grab Power Attack Cleave Brutal Strike Extend Rage Destructive Rage Intimidating Rage Iron Will Earths Embrace Leap Attack Survivor Ice Troll Beserker Unarmed Strike: +35/+30/+25/+20 for a mere 1d8+16 per hit Flurry: +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 for a mere 1d8+16 per hit Grapple Check: +39 without any additional magical items add "Gloves of Titans Grip +8 to grapple" He can also Rake or Rend.. And He has Damage Reduction 3/- and Fast Healing:5 Now you've stepped onto his turf.. By doing so you ****** him off.. The bell is about to ring so he activates several Runes thus embuing upon him the following: Divine Power Greater Magic Weapon Improved Invisibilty Righteous Might He is now large. He then goes into a Greater Rage and Frenzy. And awaits the opponents first move. His Stats are now Hp: 357 Str: 64 Dex: 20 Con: 32 Int: 6 Wis: 10 Cha: 6 His AC is a low 26 - but you would hit him anyway.. If you can find or see him that is (50% miss chance due to Improved Invisibility) and he expects to be hit.. His Attacks: +48/+48/+43/+38/+33 for 2d6 + 29 Flurry: +46/+46/+46/+41/+36/+31 for 2d6 + 29 His Grapple check is now +55.. With his gloves +63.. If you have Freedom of Movement he can activate his Antimagic Field.. It'll drop his stats but will hurt yours more probably.. If you can Close Quarters defend against Grapple he will await a point where he can do a pouncing 10ft leap attack at +20 Power attack (using True Strike via his Belt of Battle) and use a Brutal Strike on you, forcing you to make a DC 50 Fort save or be dazed (which will be tough. With his enhanced Con he only gets +31 to his Fort Save and if you fail you cannot make an action - an AoO is an action so you don't get those. He'll accept any hit's you get on him beforehand). Dazed: The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC. A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round. The Strike is also an Improved Grab and you cannot make an action - he wins Grapple. He Pins you and keeps you pinned unless you can beat a +60 Grapple as you take 1d12 +29 damage (while he wails on you for five other attacks at 2d6+29 - 206 damage average per round). Hope you like this build.. :D
#30 carnivore May 07, 2009 5:24:54	nice build... but as in most PvP events... whoever Wins Initiative and goes first usually wins.... what happens if you dont go first(your initiative is +2)... chances are my build will go first... and Swift action Teleport behind you... then Full Attack with Flurry doing 7 hits @3d6+13 Each + 3x 8d6 Girallons Windmill= (164+ 84) 248 damage in the first round... + Retributive attacks when you Attack... but you dont get to attack, because its not your turn yet, so you are still in your Pre-Rage form(Hp: 257) ... so you will have very little hp left.. at this point a single retributive attack will end the fight remember... just as with Spellcasters... whoever goes first usually wins :D
#31 SwordDisciple May 07, 2009 5:45:00	Depends if he gets to buff as I posted above.. Then you have to guess where he is and have a 50% miss chance.. You hit half the time for 124 damage average. He still has 213 HP left.. He moves 10ft away from you, while activating true strike and his belt. He pounces and hits you, you MAY hit with both attacks but he DOES hit you and you fail your save.. He hits you with a Brutal Strike each round and so you cannot make any actions.. You lose quickly.. If he can't buff up then he gets hurt and the fight could go either way (He still has Heal tattoo to get back 100hp.. This is actually quite fun :D Must head to bed, will enjoy reading more in the morning
#32 dreamweaver May 07, 2009 15:30:30	Ok, I'll have to admit, I usually just lurk and almost never post, but the only threads I really lurk in are here in the Character Optimization board. The stuff here usually fires my brain up to come up with my own stuff, unfortunately often cut down by my DMs as they aren't nearly as "unrestricted" with what they'll actually allow in their games. Pfft! Something about "game balance" and not letting one person "break" their carefully crafted campaign. Anywho... Carnivore, mucho props man. Love the build, actually, usually love your builds in general. SwordDisciple, I like your counter character, especially this latest one with invisibility, but lets be honest, if we are going to constrain ourselves to an octagon ring, a simpl Blindfold of True Darkness will negate your invisibility. And really, who is going to tell an MMA fighter he isn't allowed to fight blindfolded? ;) I've got a guy I built, not for this, but as a back up for one of my current gaming groups. Saw this thread, saw both your builds, and thought "Hey, maybe my guy could stand a chance!" So I'll go hunt him down and post him in a few. Except for the obvious 3 +6 enhancement items to Str, Dex, and Con, an amulet of +5 to natural attacks, a ring of adamantine striking, and 3 +5 inherint bonus books to the same stats as the enhancements, he still has many magic items he could purchase (like the aforementioned Blindfolded of True Darkness).
#33 carnivore May 07, 2009 15:37:20	thanks ... post away... look forward to seeing the build .... i am working on another fun one right now... will try to get it later :D
#34 dreamweaver May 07, 2009 15:58:18	Ah ha! Found him! Ok: Feral Mongrelfolk Dragonborn Mineral Warrior : +2 LA Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Frenzied Berserker 5/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Stoneblessed 3 : 18 levels (obviously not in that order, first level starts with Ranger 1 actually) Total ECL : 20 Ah, I apparently also found it a good idea to give him a Belt of Battle, neat! Un-Raged/Frenzied: Str 32 Dex 15 Con 45 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 2 F: +40 R: +10 W: +23 (Yeah, yeah, not the brightest bulb, and he ain't gonna win prizes for beauty or oratory speeches, but he does what he does best, be strong and tank!) Hps: 420 (this assumes besides max at 1st level, half HD +1 +con mod for each level) Init: +4 AC: 71; T AC: 49; F-F AC: 54 BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2 TAB w/2 weapon fighting using his hands: +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 (only has TWF from Ranger) Damage: Main Hand: 1d6+16 (avg. 19.5); Off-Hand: 1d6+10 (avg. 13.5) Normal Grapple: +28 (not that he cares if he is in a grapple or not since he'll just attack with his natural weapons anyway) Fast Healing 5 Not that it matters but: 40ft movement; 15ft burrow Uses Lion Totem Spirit ACF for Barbarian to gain Pounce for full attacks on a charge. Has a breath weapon that does 7d8 with a Reflex for half DC of 36 (not that I think I could use that in this situation, but remember, this guy was built before this thread existed) Ok, now fun stats WHILE Raging/Frenzied: (w/his newly modified Con, he can last this way for 22 rounds) Str 42 Dex 15 Con 49 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 2 F: +42 R: +10 W: +27 Hps: 456 Init: +4 AC: 69; T AC: 47; F-F AC: 50 BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2 TAB w/2 weapon fighting using his hands: +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 (only has TWF from Ranger) Damage: Main Hand: 1d6+21 (avg. 24.5); Off-Hand: 1d6+13 (avg. 16.5) Normal Grapple: +33 (not that he cares if he is in a grapple or not since he'll just attack with his natural weapons anyway) Fast Healing 5 Deathless Frenzy (I'm sure you all know what that means: doesn't go unconscious or die until all 22 rounds of the frenzy are done, unless it is a death effect like disintegrate or something, but then, this is an MMA fight) Feats: Track (Ranger 1) Endruance (1st) TWF (Ranger 2) Steadfast Determination (3rd) Power Attack (Fighter 1) Great Fortitude (6th) Improved Unarmed Strike (Fighter 2) Destructive Rage (9th) Intimidating Raget (12th) Cleave (Fighter 4) Leap Attack (15th) Improved Bull Rush (18th) Obviously I was moving this guy into what might be an epic campaign eventually so I was grooming him for Combat Brute and Shock Trooper eventually, but alas, not during the first 20 levels. So, like I said, if I throw on a Blindfold of True Darkness, I don't think I have any problems with a miss chance since it essentially gives me Blind Sight. Now, it is true that if one of you guys was trying to play a "I Hide in Plain Sight with the Darkstalker feat", I'd have to worry about you attacking me flat-footed, but that is still an AC 50 while raged. :D While it is true that no matter how high you get an AC, a natural 20 will always hit you, if you do have an AC that means your opponent HAS to roll a natural 20 to hit you, you can eliminate his chance of hitting to a guaranteed hit roughly 1 in 20 attacks. With fast healing 5 working every round whether you hit me or not, and me having 456 hps while raging, I think I can handle it. Obviously, my guy doesn't have a whole lotta umph behind his punches (like I said, building towards a power attacking charger, original character had a +5 Adamantine Greatsword, a definite no-no in an MMA fight :D ), but he can steadily grind an opponent down over the course of 22 rounds. So, what do you guys think? He's super hard to hit (good AC), can take a punch (fantastic hps), can hit pretty good (+36 while screaming for blood), and dishes ok hurt (avg. of 24.5 main vs. 16.5 off). Oh, and I almost forgot, great Fort saves that can't fail automatically on a natural 1 (obviously still can fail if a 41 Fort save isn't good enough, but at least it isn't automatic failure).
#35 SwordDisciple May 07, 2009 16:29:37	Thanks Dreamweaver However, a couple of things about my character.. --Snip--SwordDisciple, I like your counter character, especially this latest one with invisibility, but lets be honest, if we are going to constrain ourselves to an octagon ring, a simpl Blindfold of True Darkness will negate your invisibility. And really, who is going to tell an MMA fighter he isn't allowed to fight blindfolded? ;) --snip-- If it were true MMA there would be NO magic items allowed.. Back when cage fighting started there were few rules and no gloves even.. He was built on the restriction of only two non custom magic items (Belt & Gloves) totalling 12,000gp and 14,000gp.. which he doesn't really need.. Also with standard gold for 20th level (540,000gp), he has 514,000gp left over for.. Whatever he wants really.. If you have a blindfold, he has the option to Brutal Strike and Daze you anyway, he then will grab (Disarm) it with no AoO to stop him and take your blindfold.. Even if you get out of his grip you can't see him anymore.. Another option is activate his Antimagic Aura on his turn, and thus you are truely blindfolded (you would have to make a move action to take it off), none of your magic items work, and can still do the above, still with 50% miss chance on your AoO's.. As you can see, he has plenty of options :D --snip-- I've got a guy I built, not for this, but as a back up for one of my current gaming groups. Saw this thread, saw both your builds, and thought "Hey, maybe my guy could stand a chance!" So I'll go hunt him down and post him in a few. Except for the obvious 3 +6 enhancement items to Str, Dex, and Con, an amulet of +5 to natural attacks, a ring of adamantine striking, and 3 +5 inherint bonus books to the same stats as the enhancements, he still has many magic items he could purchase (like the aforementioned Blindfolded of True Darkness). Sounds good Can't wait to see it either!! Edit: Haha you ninja'd me.. That's a NICE build :D That AC is killer.. And even his touch is good.. How'd you qualify for Deepwarden which is a Dwarf only PrC? I can see him causing a few issues to my build if my character if he goes first and my character can't make the touch attack to grab him.. But if he gets into a grapple with my character he'd lose due to his very low grapple check even when buffed - he'd pin you and you would be very unlikely to make your 2 grapple checks to get out. You would have to escape the pin to deal natural attacks and you just wouldn't be able to.. Grapple checks to deal damage, thats approx 555hp in 3 rounds, he could also drive you real low in 22 rounds near -4000hp.. But you have made me think of something ;) To reiterate, awesome build :D
#36 dreamweaver May 07, 2009 17:23:04	Ah, very good idea with the Righteous Might! I'll have to look into making something like this that has a long lasting time period (or maybe even continuous) for my guy if he gets a chance to be played in my current campaign. Of course, if I can apply that to my guy, he'll gain a +6 to his grapple putting him back up to a +42. Not equal to your +59 obviously, but at least I might get out of it eventually. I'm not entirely familiar with this rune-scarred berserker. How long do his runes work when activated? Also, is he personally immune to his own anti-magic field activated from his rune? If so, totally kick butt! I'll need to look into that. Otherwise, wouldn't it immediately cancel all the other supernatural/spell-like effects on him? (i.e.: righteous might, improved invisibility, etc...) How often can he activate his runes per day? I only ask because if he can simply dismiss the field at any time and re-activate his runes (what action does activating a rune take?), we could go back and forth on me having to spend a move action to take off the obviously non-functioning blindfold to around my neck, with you then downing your field and re-activating all of your runes (assume free action to do so and as many free actions per turn as you need to activate them). Otherwise, while my character isn't terribly bright, I think the moment he couldn't see the 30ft in any direction, he would likely spend the move action to pull down the blindfold. If activating runes takes a move action or greater, then I think the advantage is to me if you actually activate the antimagic field. I lose the +6 to Str, Dex, and Con; my Belt of Battle; the +5 ammy; and the ring of Adamantine strike. You lose your, granted few, magical items, and all your rune abilities (unless, again, you are immune to your own field, which would totally kick butt!). Thus, no GMW, no Freedom of Movement, no Divine Power, no Invisibility, no Heal, and no Truestrike. Now, I must say, my character not being built to really focus on a grapple definitely hurts me. I'd say in your characters case, whether I could see you or not, the Truestrike rune is going to give you the ability to definitely succeed on that oh so necessary Touch attack to start a grapple. Even if I was Righteous Mighted as well, you have a net bonus of +17 over my grapple, which means if I were to roll a nat 20, you only have to roll a 4 or better to beat me. That's an 85% chance of success! Granted, not 100% like it was when I wasn't Righteous Mighted as well, but darn close. Only about 1.5 in 10 attempts that I could possibly beat you or tie to prevent engaging in the grapple. Even worse if I'm trying to throw you off as you'd have to roll a 2 or less for me to succeed, which means only a 1 in 10 chance. And that's only with my best attacks, which I'd only get 2 of in a round if TWF. Course, I guess if I wasn't TWF when you grappled me I'd have a +44, which means you'd only be beating me by +15, but blah, blah, blah, we could go back and forth on percentages for hours "if this" or "if that". I have to say, definitely if you grappled with me, I'd only have the 22 rounds to get out of it since you'd pummel me down well below -10 in only a few short rounds. Hrm...maybe I need something for my guy that can cast Heal on him or something 1 per day. Not for this, but for the campaign. This is why I love this board! Always pushes my brain into the right directions for min/maxing my characters. :D Ack! Got it! I just need something that produces a bucket of water! Or a bucket that is constantly full of water! I dunk my head under it expelling my breath and auto-failing my check to not suffocate! My hps get "reduced" to zero. Hrm, but would I actually go unconscious is the question. Technically it is an effect of suffocating, not of hp damage. If that was the case, I believe my rage/frenzy stops immediately, which would cause me to lose +2 con modifier hence 36 hps, hence dropping me immediately back down to -36 (i.e.: dead with no frenzy going). Still, in my mind that would be a hilarious fight if I didn't drop unconscious. Crazy feral dragon rock guy breaks free of grapple, dunks his head in a bucket for a round, then goes back at it. Repeat ad-nauseum until 22 rounds pass. Laf! The crowd would be like "WTF?!" :D
#37 SwordDisciple May 07, 2009 19:12:22	Good points.. And you certainly got me thinking.. His caster level is 10 so Greater Invisibility, Righteous Might and Divine Power only last for ten rounds against you (more than enough time for most opponents though). He is not immune to Antimagic Field which last 10min/level but generally this will hurt others more than he.. So I was thinking, after 10 rounds he will drop back to his Frenzied State, after 18 rounds he'll lose his Frenzy. I think I'd need to boost his Stamina so a Manual +5 will help (and get the same for Str) - that will make it 20 rounds.. Then an +6 item will make him last 23 rounds So available gold for this guy goes from 514,000gp to 239,000gp still LOTS to play with - he could always get some permanant buffs put on him :D And his non magical Grapple check now would be +44.. opposed by your at a guess +30? Slightly better odds for you I guess.. A +6 Con magic item and a ring of Enlarge Person would be great additions, well there are more ideas for items but I want to keep him largely dependant on his own abilities. Yea, my original idea was to make this guy so he carried a large Hammer and Knocked people/creatures senseless, now he might carry a Garrote that he can slip over the heads of creatures too large to legally grapple with, allowing him to grapple them.
#38 carnivore May 08, 2009 5:28:10	Feral Mongrelfolk Dragonborn Mineral Warrior : +2 LA quick note..... Dragonborn makes you lose the racial traits of the other Templates(Special Attacks, Special qualities) .... thus you lose Fast Healing and all the other Specials form Feral, Mongrelfolk, Mineral Warrior ..... you do keep the Movement abilities, Natural Armor, and Stat Boosts :D
#39 dreamweaver May 08, 2009 12:16:12	Not too sure about that Carnivore. My original thoughts on the subject mirrored yours, but if you go by the descriptions given, it says the dragonborn removes most of the original racial capabilities of the base race. "BASE" being the operative word. Technically, my "base" race is the Mongrelfolk. The Feral template and the Mineral Warrior template have been "added" to it. I believe, typically, if things occur roughly at the same time, usually the player is allowed to determine the order of things. One might say "Woah! They all get added at the beginning, how else could you explain that combination." In my mind, rp wise, it would be something like this. My character was born to a Mongrelfolk who had been living within a dwarven community that had finally accepted her. They were devout towards worshipping Bahamut. When I was born, mother died during childbirth without ever revealing the father, thus leaving it up to the community. Having had dragonborn amongst them before, they decided to dedicate the child to him via the rite of becoming dragonborn. Interestingly enough, it mentions that no matter the age of the participant prior to the rite, when they emerge, they are an adult. Doing this to a new born baby has the same result, except now you have a baby's mind in an adult body. As can be expected, the child sort of freaked out and ran off, becoming feral. During this time in the caverns near the dwarven community, the child was visited by his father, who turned out to be a creature closely related to an earth elemental. He returned recently to the plane and using magics, sought his lover. The closest thing matching to her in flesh was the child. Realizing what had happened, he sought to bestow a blessing upon his child and in so doing, brought forth the hidden connection to the earth that was passed on to his off spring (i.e.: Mineral Warrior template). Hence, the combination without losing the "racial" features of the templates. Of course, I could easily be entirely wrong about how things work when you add various templates together or how they each interact with each other. However, it seems to me that the Feral template is something that could technically be gained almost at any point if a significant period of time occurred where one existed in a "feral-like" state. For older characters, perhaps a few years living a beastial existence. Of course, it also makes more sense if the character hasn't lived a civilized life before hand or somehow was struck with amnesia prior to going into this feral state, only regaining their memories later on, thus adding the template later in life. Mineral Warrior is another thing entirely. Usually it would seem that this is something intrinsic to a creature, but a template such as this could, in theory, be gained by the blessing of a powerful planar creature at a later period in life. Assuming the previous are true, is it not then possible for a character to be a Mongrelfolk, gain a few levels, opt to become a Dragonborn, go on for a few more levels, gain the blessing of an other planar creature due to his adventures thus gaining the Mineral Warrior template, and then, perhaps due to a failed adventure, be lost to the civilized world in a place where he simply relies solely on his growing feral like nature to keep him alive, thus gaining the Feral template, only to eventually be rescued later by another band of adventures, returning him to the civilized world? If that were the case, would you still say, despite gaining the templates later, that the Dragonborn effect would have a continuous negating ability on the "racial" abilities given by the templates? Of course, I need to re-look at the specific wording given to the template abilities, but I also wonder if they are specifically described as "racial" abilities. If not, they might not be blanked anyway by the Dragonborn. Of course, that is not why I'm saying mine aren't. Mine aren't, in my opinion, based on how/when each was gained by the original character. Of course I could be totally bonkers!!! :D
#40 carnivore May 08, 2009 13:46:45	the key is a question of Template Type... Acquired or Inherited... notice: ACQUIRED AND INHERITED TEMPLATES Some templates can be added to creatures anytime. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template. Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born with these templates. It’s possible for a certain kind of template to be of either type. Mongrelfolk is the Base... but it is a Modified Base when you add the templates Feral(Inherited Template ... must be added first) Dragonborn(Acquired .... can be added before Mineral Warrior, but still re-writes Mongrelfolk and Feral) Mineral Warrior(Acquired template.... could be added After Dragonborn) to understand Template application better... look here: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/improvingMonsters.html#acquired-and-inherited-templates :D
#41 playswithfire May 09, 2009 6:03:32	Not finished yet, but how's this look? Half-Giant LA Barbarian* Toughness,feat[Education] Barbarian Improved Grapple Barbarian Great Fortitude,feat[Power Attack] Barbarian Swordsage** Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus Barbarian feat[Superior Unarmed Strike] FistoftheForest Swordsage War Mind feat[] War Mind War Mind War Mind feat[Practiced Manifester] War Mind War Mind War Mind feat *Bear Totem **Unarmed Swordsage With no gear and at ECL 16 STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8 AC 24 (includes 9 power point inertial armor) Saves 14/11/9 With Rage, Frenzy, and War Mind Chains STR 24, DEX 14, CON 24, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 8 AC 26 (includes 9 power point inertial armor) Saves 14/13/11 Grapple check=14 BAB + 4 size + 4 feat +4 (bear totem 5th level) + 8 (9 pp grip of iron)+7 STR = 41 Damage = 2d6 unarmed+7 STR+2d6+11 constrict from Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance
#42 SwordDisciple May 10, 2009 16:47:56	--snip-- Grapple check=14 BAB + 4 size + 4 feat +4 (bear totem 5th level) + 8 (9 pp grip of iron)+7 STR = 41 Damage = 2d6 unarmed+7 STR+2d6+11 constrict from Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance Where is +4 to grapple at bear totem 5th level from? It is not listed in CC with the totem abilities..? And the damage is either unarmed or constrict.. But otherwise it's looking promising..
#43 Senevri May 10, 2009 16:49:54	Where is +4 to grapple at bear totem 5th level from? It is not listed in CC with the totem abilities..? Unearthed Arcana, or SRD.
#44 ravidge May 12, 2009 5:41:02	Well first off I must admit I am not as savvy as the rest of you at making these types of characters which is all to obvious. But I just wanted to throw this out there as it sounded fun too me. Barbarian maybe bear totem variant/ frostrager/ reaping mauler/ monk personally I have always found frostrager to be a very fun prc that is often over looked even though it means that you always have some pretty nasty weapons on you and just have to avoid fire... then again you could take blazing berserker =D though some how I don't see a dm letting anyone get away with that
#45 SwordDisciple May 12, 2009 16:08:36	I think the only problem you would have there is a Barbarian alignment must be Nonlawful and a Monk Lawful
#46 SwordDisciple May 12, 2009 18:09:46	Heres another idea I had last night.. It's not too optimised really as his feats are spoken for but i found the idea interesting.. Build: Fathom Into the ring steps a slight young man, glove covered claw-like hands clenching and unclenching, taughtly muscled arms bearing old scars and oddly prominant tattoo's, his chest displaying the symbol of the Chaotic Lloth. He fixes you with a glare, opens his mouth and screams in fury while his body seems to shift and warp... Changeling Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Warshaper 3 / Frenzied Beserker 1 / Monk 1 / Rune-Scarred Beserker 10 / Primevil 1 Templates: (bought off) Feral Lloth-touched Draconic Stats: Str: 42 (base 16 +12 templates +5 levels +5 Manual +4 Warshaper) Dex: 17 (base 14 -2 templates +5 Manual) Con: 35 (base 16 +10 templates +5 Manual +4 Warshaper) Int: 6 (base 10 -4 templates) Wis: 14 (base 8 +2 templates +4 Tome) Cha: 10 (base 8 +2 Templates) Hp: 377 AC: 22 Runes carved into skin: 1st: True Strike 2nd: 3rd: Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon 4th: Improved Invisibilty, Righteous Might 5th: Antimagic Field, Heal (possibly Polymorph Self) Magic Items: Belt of Battle with wild-shaping broach Gloves of Titans Grip with wild-shaping broach Feats: Ordered Chaos (bought with Flaw) Combat reflexes (bought with Flaw) Endurance Diehard Improved Unarmed Strike Improved Grapple Power Attack Cleave Self-Sufficient Toughness Destructive Rage Intimidating Rage Survivor Iron Will Ice Troll Beserker Unarmed Strike: +34/+29/+24/+19 for a mere 1d6+16 per hit Flurry: +32/+32/+27/+22/+17 for a mere 1d6+16 per hit Grapple Check: +38 without any magical items +46 with Gloves He has the option to Rake or Rend.. He has Damage Reduction 3/-, is immune to stunning & critical hits, and Fast Healing:5.. He also has 10ft reach as a medium creature.. His body warps.. as his body twists and turns, he touches several of the tattoo's which flash with a golden light.. Bigger and bigger he gets until a huge slavering beast stands in front of you, clenching and unclenching its claws as the fightmaster calls out for the battle of your life to begin.. He now has active on him the following Runes thus embuing upon him the following: Divine Power Greater Magic Weapon Righteous Might He is now large. His Greater Rage, Frenzy and shift into his Primal Form(Dragonhawk) makes him huge with a 15ft reach... His Stats are now Str: 80 Dex: 19 Con: 51 Int: 6 Wis: 14 Cha: 10 Hp: 537 AC: 20 (with Improved Invisibility as assistance if required) His Attacks: +56/+56/+51/+46/+41 for 2d6(claw) + 37 Flurry: +54/+54/+54/+49/+44/+39 for 2d6(claw) + 37 His Grapple check is now +67.. With his gloves +75(Great Red Wyrm!!).. If you have Freedom of Movement he can activate his Antimagic Field.. It'll drop his stats slightly (as most benefits are Su) but probably less than a fighter with magical buffs.. He has a 15ft reach so unless you are right beside him or have the same reach you get no AoO.. And you really don't want to grapple with him.. Average Damage in one round = 270, Minimum = 246
#47 carnivore May 13, 2009 5:25:51	just remember.... if he activates Antimagic field... he reverts to original Form which is a Substantial difference and he loses ALL buffs including Items :D
#48 SwordDisciple May 13, 2009 16:38:29	Edit: never mind.. checked myself Too true.. hmm.. might be a little more damaging to himself but not too bad Got another build Carnivore?
#49 divinechaos78 May 16, 2009 15:09:44	try this: Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15 feats Improved Unarmed(monk) Combat Reflexes(monk) Improved Grapple(monk) Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler) Unnerving Calm(Warblade) Blade Meditation(Warblade) Ironheart(warblade) Carmondine Monk Superior Unarmed Strike 2 weapon fighting Improved 2 weapon fighting Double Hit Robilars Gambit Close Quarter Fighting Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7) 16 Str(base 10 + 6 item) 26 Dex(base 14 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent) 20 Con(base 14 + 6 item) 30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent) 16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item) 16 Cha(base 10 + 6 item) at 20th lvl......BAB +19 Full Attack 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or amulet) +32/+27/+22/+17 and 3d6(2d6 @ +1 Size)+10 Int +3 Str= 3d6+13 Each thus when flurry and 2 Wpn fight and imp 2wpn fight...attack bonus is as follows: +30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+15 and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at: 19+8 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 Int(Warblade) +42/+42...and 3d6+23damage he gets: Int to Damage(Unarmed) Int to AC Int to Confirm Crits 2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...) Int to Attack for AoO 2xInt to Damage for AoO Dex to Attack Dex to AC Dex to Initiative Manuvers: Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Clarity Action Before Thought Rapid Counter Pearl of Black Doubt(stance) Tiger Claw: Hunters Stance Wolverine Stance Wolf Pack Tactics Stance Pouncing Charge Dancing Mongoose Raging Mongoose Girallons Windmill Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study Cloak of Deception Shadow Blink For combat..... While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened... he can easily beat Grapplers... since he gets 2 attacks(with additional 8d6 damage each) if they try to start a grapple, and adds the Damage to his check to prevent the grapple he Will go first... and will get some major damage... even more if you attack him back :D My DM for another campaign has said that I cant select the warblade class until he has full understanding of its mechanics. So I was wondering about how could I incorperate the oriental varient monk 2/ swashbuckler 3/ ashworm dragoon 1. My question is how can I boost my BAB to qualify for the Ashworm dragoon prc at 6th level?
#50 carnivore May 16, 2009 15:20:01	take more Class levells of a Full BAB class: Ranger 2/ Sawshbuckler 3 ... will do fine :D
#51 awaken_D_M_golem May 18, 2009 16:28:40	Widen Anti-Magic Shell ... covers the whole ring ... on a pair of Shorts. Widen + Shaped with the Donut Hole in the middle like an Arch-Mage !!
#52 jgumbyrx May 19, 2009 16:44:25	First, here are the assumptions that I have made: 1) either: 20ft square boxing-style ring (as in PRIDE) -or- 32ft octagon (UFC) 2) buffs: Official UFC Regulations ban "performance-enhancing drugs" -- it is my belief that buff spells/magic items count as "performance enhancers". Basically, both my guys are wearing mundane spandex shorts. Now, on to my submissions. Straight form "Heavens and Hells Dojo", I present Ugama and B.An.E. Ugama has commited his life to the betterment of society. He operates several (non-profit) oprhanages, which are completely funded by the money he wins in prize-fighting (it's the only thing that he feels that he is good at): Show Ugama Human "Saint" (BoED template) -- LG, Medium Outsider (Native [augmented humanoid]) Monk4/PsyWar2/Fighter6/Swordsage4 (diamond mind focus)/Chameleon2 (not necessarily in that order) 108 hp ; 18 hd ; fast-healing 9 ; regeneration 1 BAB +14/+9/+4 base flurry +12/+12/+7/+2 Grapple: + 29 (+freedom of movement) (14 + 5 (str) + 4 ("size") + 4 (imp grap) + 2 (stance)) Initiative: +4 Speed: 40 attack: +32/+27/+22 (14 base + 9 wis + 2 saint + 2 cham. + 1 swordsage + 4 enhancement) ; Flurry: +30/+30/+25/+20 damage: 1d10+11 (+3d6 vs. evil -or- +2d6+1d8 vs evil undead/outsiders) -- ALL NON-LEATHAL AC: 56 (10 + 9 (monk - unnamed) + 9 (swordsage - unnamed) + 9 (insight - saint) + 2 (natural) + 4 (deflection) + 10 (exalted) +3 (dex)) ; touch: 54 ; FF: 53 DR: 5/magic ; 10/evil imune: acid, cold, elec. resist: fire 10 ; sonic 5 Save DC for stunning fist/choke hold: 36 (10 + 9 (1/2 hd) + 9 (wis) + 2 (ability focus) + 2 (saint) + 4 (Vow of Nonviolence)) ; 38 vs. evil (FotH) Calm emotions aura DC : 22 Power Points: 10 Attributes: STR - 20 (16 base; +4 VoP) DEX - 16 (14 base; +2 VoP) CON - 12 (10 base; +2 Saint) INT - 8 WIS - 28 (16 base; +4 levels; +2 Saint; +6 VoP) CHA - 12 (8 base; +4 Saint) fort: 18 -- 13 (base) + 1 (con) + 4 (resistance) ref: 17 -- 10 (base) + 3 (dex) + 4 (resistance) will: 23 -- 10 (base) + 9 (wis) + 4 (resistance) other save mods: +2 vs. enchantments ; +4 vs.: poison ; disease & death ; non-damaging Flaws: Inattentive ; Shaky Feats: basic: (F) Jotunbrud (F) Able leaner (H) Sacred Vow (1) Vow of Poverty (3) superior UAS (6) choke hold (9) ability focus - stunning fist (12) ability focus - choke hold (15) scorpion's grasp (18) practiced manifester Class bonus feats: (monk) imp UAS; stunning fist; combat reflexes (fighter) imp grapple; close-quarters fighting; rapid stunning; freezing the lifeblood (PsyWar) psionic fist; unavoidable strike (Cham) instant clarity Bonus Exalted feats: -vow of nonviolence; vow of peace; sanctify ki strike; holy ki strike; intuitive attack; fist of the heavens; holy subdual; vow of purity skills: conc. 22 (21+1) ; tumble 26 (21+3+2) ; bal. 5+ ; jump 5+ ; bluff 8 ; disg 8 ; sense mot. 4 ; spellcraft 4 Powers Known: Expansion ; Grip of Iron Stances: Stonefooted stance ; stance of clarity Readied Manuvers: sapphire nightmare blade ; clinging shadow strike ; stone bones ; emerald razor Other relevent abilities and qualities: evasion freedom of movement greater sustanence mind shielding true seeing 20' Protective Aura: X2-strength protection from evil ; lesser globe of invulnerability still mind If "performance enhancers" are allowed, then manifest Expansion (large, 6 min), and Grip of Iron (+6 grapple 6 rds ; +4 for 6 rds). This will drop my AC by 1 ; extra + 10 to grapple for 6 rds (+39 total) and +8 for 6 rds (+37 total) pros: lots cons: hp ; saves ; ineffective vs. creatures immune to stunning/non-lethal ; would have liked to have been able to increase grapple check and save DC's
#53 SwordDisciple May 19, 2009 22:53:11	Nice builds.. I was tempted to throw Vow of poverty on my Human Runescarred Bezerker.. You just convinced me I should For the B.A.n.E character, you should look into the enhancement that allows you to have BAB at 2/3rds your character level I can't remember what it's called but I'm sure there is some-one who can tell you what it is?
#54 jgumbyrx May 19, 2009 23:32:11	Nice builds.. I was tempted to throw Vow of poverty on my Human Runescarred Bezerker.. You just convinced me I should For the B.A.n.E character, you should look into the enhancement that allows you to have BAB at 2/3rds your character level I can't remember what it's called but I'm sure there is some-one who can tell you what it is? "saint" is also an awesome template - well worth the +2 LA (even though there is a little over-lap with VoP) removed class levels in exchange for multi-headed template, with the lernaean option. lost some attack and a lot of strength, but doubled # of attacks and doubled the damage.
#55 jgumbyrx May 20, 2009 19:30:14	"saint" is also an awesome template - well worth the +2 LA (even though there is a little over-lap with VoP) removed class levels in exchange for multi-headed template, with the lernaean option. lost some attack and a lot of strength, but doubled # of attacks and doubled the damage. okay -- final edit. kept some heads, but added some levels -- hybrid of the first 2 edits