This is my current build-
1Monk Two Weapon Fighting
2Monk
3Monk Weapon Focus(Unarmed strike)
4Monk
5Monk
6Monk Superior Unarmed Strike
7Monk
8Monk
9Monk Snap Kick
10Monk
11Monk
12Monk Improved Natural Attack
1Fighter Improved Two Weapon Fighting
2Fighter Power Attack
3Fighter Flying Kick
4Fighter Weapon Specialization(Unarmed strike)
1Warblade (Punishing Stance, Pouncing Charge, (Two Tiger Claw Maneuvers))
5Fighter (Needs Feat)
6Fighter Greater Two Weapon Fighting
(Dip class)
We are starting at level 8, and I am playing a Goliath, so due to CA I start at 7. With the exception of my DM allowing me to play a Goliath for books we use Core, Complete Series, and Tome of Battle, though with enough convincing they will generally allow other things with the exception of psionics.
Anyway I was just hoping for opinions, and some help with what I should do with my last feat/level. As for now it seems like I'll start out OK, at level 20 though with Pouncing Charge I can charge and make a Full Attack letting me hit for ten times (4 Attacks, 2 Flurry, 1 Snap Kick, 3 Off Hand.) At 6d8+1d6 each punch and with a charge, an additionally 1d12 damage with each hit from Flying kick.
second ... skip Flying kick - sounds fun, but isn't as good as it sounds, dip one level of lion totem Barbarian to get pounce ...
third .. don't play a Monk .. seriously, everything you could do is better ... and to quote a nother user of this board:
If you're not a spellcaster at level 12+ you're the spellcasters ho
Flying kick is not very good, it's true. The problem with dipping Lion Totem Barbarian is that Barbarians can't be lawful, and Monks have to be lawful.
I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but I can promise you a detailed response sometime in the future.
First ... did you ever think of multiclass penaltys?
My bad I forgot to include that we play with no multi-class penalties as a house rule.
third .. don't play a Monk .. seriously, everything you could do is better
As for playing monk the main reason I'm playing one is we had a monk in our last campaign who completely stunk, he took full monk progression with almost no offensive, or good defensive feats, and basically ended up being baggage. I'm just trying to prove to myself, and the guys I play with that the class is not completely without merit.
As for Lion totem barbarian I think I'm missing something, from the resources I have it only shows as giving run as a bonus feat at first level.
Unarmed adaptation Swordsage 20. Fixed.
6 levels of fighter? Cmon.
Unarmed adaptation Swordsage 20. Fixed.
True enough, although not everyone may want to allow this adaptation.
However, don't entirely dismiss the monk entirely. The class is just not that long. Generally two levels of monk are enough, then switch and use a dual-progression feat to improve your unarmed damage. If you desperately want greater flurry, take 11 levels, but IMHO it's not worth it to take another 9 levels of doubtful benefit for one extra attack.
A good (i.e. not total crap) tactical build (if you're stuck on non-magical monk) is basically an unarmed lockdown or AoO fighter. You'll want stuff like Aberrant Reach, though, and a level or two of Psywarrior for Expansion. The nice thing is that you can then wield a reach weapon for AoOs and still full-attack with unarmed strikes up close.
I've been playing around in my head with something like this:
Monk2 (perhaps chaos monk)/Some alternative Fighter, who trades in armor prof for useful stuff 2-6/Lion Totem 1 (change alignment, or waive those crappy requirements)/Psywar 2/whatever...
The trouble will be your physical stats, though, so you really want a permanent PAO rather sooner than later.
The alternative is of course CoDzilla with two levels of monk to start out or somewhere in the middle:
VoP Monk2/Druid18. Perfect.
Druid9/MOMF2/Monk2/Druid rest
There are multiple ways for good builds in that area. Most center on getting huge numbers of unarmed damage dice.
True enough, although not everyone may want to allow this adaptation.
--
A good (i.e. not total crap) tactical build (if you're stuck on non-magical monk) is basically an unarmed lockdown or AoO fighter. You'll want stuff like Aberrant Reach, though, and a level or two of Psywarrior for Expansion. The nice thing is that you can then wield a reach weapon for AoOs and still full-attack with unarmed strikes up close.
I've been playing around in my head with something like this:
Monk2 (perhaps chaos monk)/Some alternative Fighter, who trades in armor prof for useful stuff 2-6/Lion Totem 1 (change alignment, or waive those crappy requirements)/Psywar 2/whatever...
I like the idea of psionic monks too (wis synergy etc), but the OP said, "with enough convincing they will generally allow other things with the exception of psionics."
If he allows Chaos monk I think he'll allow a Swordsage variant ;)
No multiclass penalties, full attack progression, a heap of maneuvers and a lot of snack for everyone. If interrested I will go through the hassle to find the feat progression to. If you do a search I have posted this build at noumerous occasions.
Monk4/Swordsage4/Fighter4/Shou Disciple 3/Master of the Nine5
No multiclass penalties, full attack progression, a heap of maneuvers and a lot of snack for everyone. If interrested I will go through the hassle to find the feat progression to. If you do a search I have posted this build at noumerous occasions.
Seems like an interesting build, I managed to dig up one of your old posts so no need to post feat progression. I'm assuming Shou Disciple is from Oriental Adventures, as that's one of the few books I don't have (though I can obtain it easily enough). I never noticed Giant's stance, that will definitely be worth taking, and with Master of Nine that would give me dual stance if I remember correctly so I could implement another stance either for defense or offense.
Master of the Nine will give you a limited dual-stance, that can be used for some rounds every day.
Anyway, I hope you will enjoy playing
Monk 6/ Swordsage 4/ Shou disciple 5/ Master of Nine 5
get Greater Flurry and everything else... and can Greater Flurry with Any Martial Weapon
if it were me.... id do this:
Elf
Monk 6/ Swordsage 2/ Shou disciple 5/ Champion of Corellon 2/ Master of Nine 5
get Dex to Attack and Damage and Greater Flurry with Courtblade(Imp Weapon Familiarity makes the Elven Courtblade a Martial Weapon)
:D
Speaking of which, I also like a few fighter levels as they take bab up to 16, making the build epic-proof. The fighter levels also allow for weapon mastery, which is better for an unarmed monster than for most others. I think you would agree if you saw the whole feat lineup
Courtblade is 1d10 (right?) while unarmed damage gets into something like 8d6. I don't rightly remember that part. With one of the many items that enhance unarmed strikes you don't hae the penalty of magic enchantment on fists either.
EDIT: If dex to damage is important it is much easier to take Shadow blade from ToB. It applies to unarmed attacks, and you have all that shadow-stuff already.
Monk 6/ Swordsage 4/ Shou disciple 5/ Master of Nine 5
and focus on Shadow Hand stuff ... using the Shadow Blade feat
:D
BaB 15...its doable, but I would again prefer to toss in some fighter there.
You mean something like Monk2/Fighter4/Swordsage4/etc?
You might as well cut down the Fighter4 into Fighter2/X2, maybe even Swordsage 5 or 6 total.
There is one hitch:
Does Shou Disciple stack with Monk for Flurry? IF so, then not taking fighter is better than taking it, because one Flurry at no penalty is worth more than one more Iterative with BAB. You only lose one point of AB, anyway, but that final BAB iterative will usually hardly hit, compared to a flurry, which is at max BAB.
Lion Totem Barb 1, Monk 11, Swashbuckler 3, Swordsage 5
Noteble feats: Carmedine Monk, Shadow Blade, Daring Outlaw (get Assasin's Stance), Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike (, Ascetic Rouge, Two weapon Fighting Tree)
What do you get: greater Flurry, Monk unarmed Damage of a large lvl 17 Monk (11+ Carmedine focus (+2) +superiorUS( +4))(=3d8), Dex and Int (and Str) to Damage, Dex, Int, Wis to AC, Bab 13, Full Attack on charge with 6 Attacks, Maneuvers
get A enlarge Person Item for more Damage and a Divine Power item for more Attacks and better BaB
You mean something like Monk2/Fighter4/Swordsage4/etc?
You might as well cut down the Fighter4 into Fighter2/X2, maybe even Swordsage 5 or 6 total.
There is one hitch:
Does Shou Disciple stack with Monk for Flurry? IF so, then not taking fighter is better than taking it, because one Flurry at no penalty is worth more than one more Iterative with BAB. You only lose one point of AB, anyway, but that final BAB iterative will usually hardly hit, compared to a flurry, which is at max BAB.
yes Shou Disciple does stack for Flurry .... thats why i was trying to keep at least 11 effective Monk levels for Flurry(Greater Flurry)
also there are some things you dont want to hit with Unarmed Strikes... thats what martial Weapons are for... also for Reach and Special attacks... Shou Disciple allows you to flurry with Any Martial or Simple weapon.... also it gives +3 Dodge to AC @ Shou Disciple 5, in addition to 2 bonus feats... it give Weapon Specialization as one of the feats if you choose it
:D
monk 2/ psychic warrior 9/ sanctified mind 6/ psychic warrior 10-12
greater flurry. all d8 hd. bab 16. ml 17.
must have feats: iron will, tashalatora, monastic training( tied to psychic warrior)
also make sure to take practiced manifester, sup unarmed strike, imp nat attack, and snap kick. also get into the TWF chain if you can fit it in.
Here it is, you'll note that I'm using a Human with a 28 point build:
Start 4th 8th 12th 16th 20th
Str 8 10 16 21
Dex 8 16 17 18 19 26 31
Con 8 14 20 26
Int 8 10
Wis 8 14 20 25
Cha 8 10
28 0
Monk 12/Fighter 8
{Lvl: 16
Hps: 167 = 8 +55 +24 +80
AC: 43[44] = 10 +7 +8+5+3 +5 +5 [+1]
Touch: 31[32] Flat: 35[36]
Saves:
F: +17 = +12 +5
R: +17 = +9 +8
W: +14 = +9 +5
BAB: +13/+8/+3
TAB: +23/+18/+13
+G. Flurry: +23/+23/+23/+18/+13
+TWF: +21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11
+Boots: +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12
Dam: 12d8+6
Off-Hand Dam: 12d8+4
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
Bracers of Armor +7
}
Hps: 271 = 8 +55 +48 +160
AC: 48[49] = 10 +8 +10+7+3 +5 +5 [+1]
Touch: 35[36] Flat: 38[39]
Saves:
F: +22 = +14 +8
R: +20 = +10 +10
W: +17 = +10 +7
BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2
+Greater Flurry BAB: +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2
+T.W.F. Feats: +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0
TAB: +32/+27/+22/+17
+G.F.: +32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17
+T.W.F. Feats: +30+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15
+Boots of Speed: +31/31/+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16
+W.F. [unarm.]+M.M.[Bludg.]: +34/+34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19
+Crushing Strike Successes: +34/+35/+36/+37/+38/+34/+35/+31/+32/+28
Activate Belt for Full Round: +44/+45/+46/+47/+48/+44/+45/+41/+42/+38
Damage: 12d8+14
Off-Hand Dam.: 12d8+11
Feats:
1) Two-Weap. Fighting (1st), (Human), Improv. Grapple (Monk 1st), Improv. Una. Strike (Monk 1st)
2) Combat Reflexes (Monk 2nd)
3) Weapon Focus [unarmed strike] (3rd)
6) Improv. Nat. Attack (6th), Improv. [Disarm or Trip?] (Monk 6th)
9) Superior Unarmed Strike (9th) [took out Deft Opportunist]
12) Weapon Finesse (12th)
13) Improv. T.W. Fighting (Fighter 1st)
14) Greater T.W. Fighting (Fighter 2nd)
15) Double Hit (15th)
16) Weapon Spec. [unarmed strike] (Fighter 4th)
18) Crushing Strike (18th), Melee Weapon Mastery [bludgeoning] (Fighter 6th)
20) Robliar’s Gambit (Fighter 8th)
Items: (755.041k gp) (Lvl 20: 760k gp)
Ring of Pro. +5 (35k gp)
+Ring of Sustenance for (2.5k * 1.5) * .7 = 2.625k gp)
+Ring of Adamantine touch. Costs 6k normally. Add to Ring of Greater Mighty Wallop for (6k * 1.5) * .7 = 6.3k gp
Ring of Nat. Armor +5 (35k gp)
Bracers of Armor +8 (44.8k gp)
+Bracers of Opportunity (2.415k gp)
+Counterstrike Bracers (2.625k gp)
Blindfold of True Darkness (6.3k gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (105k gp) [+1 is 4.2k gp]
Monk’s Vest (9.1k gp)
Boots of Speed (8.4k gp)
+Boots of Dragonstriding (1.575k gp)
+Boots of Agile Leaping (0.63k gp)
Gloves of Dex. +6 (25.2k gp) + combo in Str. +6 (37.8k gp)
Shirt of Con. +6 (25.2k gp)
Belt of Battle (8.4k gp)
+Healing Belt (0.7875k gp)
3 charges/day of Greater Mighty Wallop as caster lvl 12th (27.216k gp)
-Or Ring of Invisibility (14k gp)
Tome of Bodily Health +5 (96.25k)
Tome of Dexterity +5 (96.25k)
Tome of Wis +5 (96.25k)
Tome of Str +5 (96.25k)
Ok, so his normal rate of movement for a move equivalent action is: 70 feet or 140 feet for a double move that takes up a 6 second period of time. He roughly moves at 15.91 miles per hour at that speed. Running is 4x 70, so roughly 31.82 miles per hour. Granted, that isn't really what this is about, but I like it. It is also by no means the fastest anyone has gotten a monk up to, but this serves a point: with the boots of speed activated, his move equivalent movement is 100 feet. You can get a lot of places once initiatives are rolled in 100 feet. That isn't even charging.
He also has a +12 initiative modifier at level 20. +10 from dex and a +2 bonus from the belt of battle. The bettle of battle is a sweet little kicker. Only 3 charges per day, but they can be very useful.
So, normal stuff I do with him:
1) Roll initiative, usually being first or if not, very close to the top of the initiative order.
2) On my turn, activate boots of speed as a free action (not swift, that is for the belt of battle), use one charge off the belt of battle to gain an immediate "extra" move equivalent action, move 100 feet to the closest group of enemies (try to position such that I'm near two or three), and use full round action to start pummeling my enemies with a full attack action.
Now, granted, spellcasters are awesome, and there are some nifty capabilities with using the Tome of Battle classes with their manuevers and stances. However, this build was done simply because it seemed like everything I tried to build was geared towards getting into a prestige class. I just wanted a basic build that didn't go too overboard multi-classing or prestige class hungry. Now, I do have an extension for this build into epic levels up to level 30, and whew boy, does it get some good old crazy in there (I eventually gain Mettle, which is essentially Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves), but I digress.
This build isn't a spellcaster, obviously, and I make up for some of my lack of abilities with crazy magic items (most straight out of the Magic Item Compendium, others the DMG, and a few made based on the DMG magic item creation guidelines, with the caveat that all of the items that can be our made with the restriction of either 1 level of Monk or 1 level of Fighter to be able to be used, cuts the price down to 70% of its total, me likey to spread my money around!). It does have fairly good saves all the way up (thank you Monk!), and with Evasion and Improved Evasion, you can usually avoid most of the big bad damage spells. Of course, the big thing towards the high end is the save or die spells, but with your lowest save being a +17 on Will at 20th level, you've got a pretty good chance at being able to make most of your saves.
Anywhoo...I'm going on and on, and I'm trying to think up answers to questions that might be posed, but I'll end for now and respond to any that get put up.
OH! Important Note: This build assumes that your DM allows the Monk's Belt (slightly modified in my magic item build) and Superior Unarmed Strike (I believe that is from the PHB2) to stack. That gets your Unarmed Strike damage up to a 20th level Monk (i.e.: base is 2d10).
OH 2! Important Note: Again, this is a base class oriented build. I have built one that begins to get Zerth Cenobite from Complete Psionics at 20th level (i.e.: Monk 11/Fighter 8/Zerth Cenobite 1). That build assumes the allowance of psionics in your game. It too is essentially focused on reaching Zerth Cenobite 10 by 29th level and going into Pious Templar 1 at level 30 (for that Mettle ability). That build gains the Zerth Cenobite once per day extra full round action as well. Combined with sneaking up on someone, you could in theory get off 3 full round actions worth of attacks in one round: Belt of Battle (all 3 charges), Zerth Cenobite "extra" full round once per day, and normal full round action of full attack. Pretty brutal if your base damage per hit is 12d8 and with Crushing Strike, each previous successful hit against the same opponent that round gives you an additional +1 to hit with your next attack against that opponent. I'm fairly certain I could kill Ancient Wyrms at that point in one round. Granted, I blow my whole wad, but hey, you just clubbed an ancient wyrm to death with your bare hands! ;)
Sorry, can't seem to get the Str : Cha , level layout spaced appropriately.
yes Shou Disciple does stack for Flurry .... thats why i was trying to keep at least 11 effective Monk levels for Flurry(Greater Flurry)
also there are some things you dont want to hit with Unarmed Strikes... thats what martial Weapons are for... also for Reach and Special attacks... Shou Disciple allows you to flurry with Any Martial or Simple weapon.... also it gives +3 Dodge to AC @ Shou Disciple 5, in addition to 2 bonus feats... it give Weapon Specialization as one of the feats if you choose it
:D
Pretty nice, overall
. For the fact that it's a monk-booster class.Also, looking at the SD's armor proficiencies it is stated that flurry is only disabled in medium or heavy armor, which I interpret to mean that a shou disciple can flurry in light armor.
Thanks for pointing out.It also says that it stacks to determine your Unarmed BAB progression, which was replaced by FoB in 3.5. Combined with the Dragon 318 rule stated above (which was the 3.5 update for Oriental Adventures), this unabiguously means that Shou Disciple stacks for flurry, assuming all those sources are allowed/considered.