Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Blastwagon Aug 19, 2015 12:57:57	Tthanks in advance for any help given.   So I am super brand new to D&D and have just started in a 3.5 campaign at lvl 1.  I have always gravitated to fast unarmed combat using (dex) as my tank.  Naturally, looking through my brand new PHB, Monk was my obvious class.  I had no idea that monk performs so poorly.   So, I need some help.  I realize that this topic has been discussed at length in other post, on multiple forums,  but I cant make sense of what I'm reading. Whether its due to multiclasses or PrCs I dont have access to or dependant on gear that i dont know will exist in my game, most of the research i have done has gone right over my head. I dont want to roll a handle that is bastardize to hell and back and doomed to fail due to ignorance.   My DM is being pretty lax and has allowed everyone playing 1 respec before we hit lvl again since all playing are brand new.  The only catch is we must stay with our original class for at least the first lvl and we can not re-roll our Ability Scores.  The value can be reassigned though.  My values are 15/15/14/13/13/11.  The only source books we are currntly allowed are PHB,DMG,and MM.  The DM is also willng to allow homebrews that he approves.  Last thing, we have 4 in our group myself( human monk), a dwarf ranger, halfling rogue, and pixie cleric.  I bring this up because i dont see a tank or caster type so any help filling needs as a group would help too.   sorry to write a book.  If any other info would help, let me know, and again thanks for any help
#2 StevenO Aug 19, 2015 15:28:31	I do not entirely understand the problems.  Are you saying that you can change your first level (starting) character how ever you like but you MUST keep the same species and more importantly Class that you initially tried to play?  If your DM is going to allow you to revise your first level character then he should allow you to go all the way back to class; he may request that you try to keep the CONCEPT the same but in some cases a given character concept can be started in several different ways.   I would also encourage the DM to use Point Buy for stats instead of having you roll for stats.  It makes it MUCH easier to build characters when you can consistently get the ability scores you need even if they aren't always as high as you want.  Your 15,15,14,13,13,11 array may not seem like much but it is an very good roll that equates to PB 35 granted it may be an inefficient 35 points due to all of the odd ability scores.  If you are stuck playing a Monk your 11 goes to CHA because you have no need for that ability but how you arrange the other 5 scores will depend largely on taste and what you plan to boost later.  I mean a 14 or 15 can get you more damage when put into STR while those same scores to DEX or WIS get you a better AC and Save and used in CON gets you more hp.  Guess I'd still a 13 into INT unless you know you're going to want to use a lot of skills.   When I look at your party's current makeup I can help but think of a "stealthy" party.  The Monk, Rogue, and Ranger are all skill classes that can lend themselves to stealth.  Then you've got a Pixie Cleric which COMPLETELY blows everything else away here; a Pixie Cleric 1 is AT MINIMUM considered a 5th-level character and possibly a 7th-level character due to all of the +4 or +6 Level Adjustment (LA) that a Pixie has.  Being able to fly, use GREATER Invisibility, and those incredible ability modifiers may a pixie too strong to be used with 1st-level characters.   Oh, and a Cleric most certain is a "caster type" that also can make a great 'tank' if that is what the group is looking for.
#3 Blastwagon Aug 19, 2015 19:33:45	thanks for the info StevenO.  Sorry I wasnt more clear with my post.  I am really just looking for a more viable build than a vanilla monk. some thing that will scale with the rest of my group and keep the game fun.  Most of the things i've read about the class suggest that mid and higher lvl game play is very bad .  Most every build Ive seen is either unavailable to me becasue of book restaints.  I havent seen any core classes that really offer synergy with monk, especially with my Ability scores (point buy with respec was shot down).    To clarify the respec part.  I have to start as a  human, lvl 1 Monk with the stat numbers shown.  Can do anything i want after that, and he opened up ToB.    Are there any builds that are not so notoriously lacking that you would suggest? I'd still like to find something that is monk-like without the game outrunning my usefulness.
#4 StevenO Aug 19, 2015 20:42:53	TOB is opened up?  That's good news.  Scratch that, it's GREAT news.  Beg and plead to rebuild using the Unarmed Swordsage variation which is often considered the 'fixed' Monk class.  I can't honestly say I've build a lot of TOB classes (I didn't get the book until well after 3.5's official death) but others have.  It may also be something for the Ranger to look into.  Now even if you're stuck in Monk I believe Tempest_Stormwind has a build or two in his signature that can rescue the Monk class using ToB.   While not exactly part of the PHB you may want to consider the SRD and other open source material that can give you variations for the Monk.  Some of those variant Fighting Styles will give you better bonus feats at 1st and 2nd levels.
#5 Blastwagon Aug 19, 2015 22:06:51	that Swordsage looks good to me.  I think it will give me a chance to enjoy the game while i learn it!  thanks a ton StevenO.  if you think of anything else,advise-wise, send it my way!   cheers
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 20, 2015 11:46:14	The Evasion Tank in my signature is a monk /swordsage combo that should fit nicely, as StevenO suggested.
#7 Blastwagon Aug 20, 2015 16:05:52	The Evasion Tank build does look really fun to play and will fill a big gap i see in our party.  The thing that concerns me are the books.  1) i dont know that MIC is used secretly by the DM but hasnt been available to us and 2) Compete warrior is NOT available.  I'm too inexperienced to see where CW was used in the build.  Are there viable work arounds to losing Serpent Armor and whatever comp warrior was used for?   you guys are great and i really thank you for your help.  Sorry I havent given you much to work with but this is my first character ever and sontimes dont even know the right questions to ask.
#8 StevenO Aug 20, 2015 17:14:20	Looking at the classes I'd suspect that CW is just used for a feat or maybe two which you probably could find a substitute for.  I'd say the same applies for the MIC.  If that Serpent Armor is utilized for Combat Reflexes I wonder if you couldn't just use one of those Variant Monks I listed which would give you that feat instead of Deflect Arrows or Improved Grapple; Denying Stance seems to keep the Grapple but gives the Reflexes.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 21, 2015 13:06:18	The MIC won't be needed, and CW is used for the Elusive Target feat and nothing more. The only other non-TOB splat is the PHB2's decisive strike. If you're not using a spiked chain, Combat Reflexes is less important to this build than it looks - it isn't about typical Attack of Opportunity stunts so much as foiling attacks aimed at it. Just use teamwork tactics instead to draw fire. For instance, all three of your teammates are stealthy (skills, size, and Invisibility), and if you're the only threat who can be seen....   ------- Now that I'm at a full keyboard...   The reasoning for the above is simple: normal "AoO tanking" involves Combat Reflexes, a long reach, and lots of options for making attacks of opportunity in response to your foes doing stuff within that reach. This nonstop string of attacks - which can be normal whacks (which clear out mooks) or tactical options like trips (which interrupt and foil actions taken by stronger foes) - is what forces foes to deal with you or face the consequences. The tank then relies on common defenses to stay alive. Traditionally these are a high AC, hit points, and possibly some measure of foiling the enemy attack (such as tripping them if they close in to melee distance or using a Tome of Battle counter).   The Evasion Tank is different: It relies on teamwork (such as having the whole team except the tank being hidden) to focus attacks at it, meaning the reach option isn't as critical. It then goes for broke in terms of hard-stops on those attacks, preventing them from landing at all or turning them against the enemy team. Lots of counters and triggered "on attack" bits are how it does this, and one of the stronger unlimited on-attack triggers is in the Elusive Target feat. That feat (the only thing from Complete Warrior on that list) works best if you're flanked or if you provoke AoOs by movement, both of which are easiest if you aren't fighting from reach. (That said, we still used a spiked chain because reach is important. If you're focusing on unarmed combat, you can drop the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat in exchange for anything else - such as Combat Reflexes or the like. Maybe even Superior Unarmed Strike, if you really like the damage dice, but be advised that damage dice aren't too hot in 3.5.).   (Note: The CW tactical feats are high-cost and generally mediocre, but most of them are revitalized something fierce with the Tome. The simplest example is Sun School + Shadow Hand teleports, letting monk/swordsages shift around the field and deliver attacks at the same time, occasionally combined with Stunning Fist or a related attack option. Others include ToB counters on Elusive Target, as in the Evasion Tank, Diamond Mind Nightmare Blades multiplying Combat Brute, and so on).   I suggested the Evasion Tank because it fits your desired goal (note: a standard monk 2 / swordsage X would also work here, or unarmed swordsage 20, but the Evasion Tank is also more durable than these are), and its concept dovetails alarmingly well with your team's stealth abilities. (Be advised that StevenO is right about the pixie having a level adjustment and being unplayable at level 1.) There are alternatives if you prefer: in my sig, you'll find the T3 and God Hand were expressly designed around unarmed strikes (and several others use unarmed-esque weapons, like natural attacks), and others provide alternatives for tanking (although most of these reward higher Strength, they're all Dex-heavy as well, due to how Combat Reflexes works.).