Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 origamikid89 Jan 22, 2009 14:55:40	I am attempting to build a mage slayer that does not use any form of magic as a class ability.
#2 NiteCyper Jan 22, 2009 19:11:14	Show Lvl: playable at 6, effective at 10, builds to 14-20 You mean that's what you want this build to be? i.e. [the build must have a] modicum of playability at level 6, moderately [optimized] playability at level 10 and an apogee of effectiveness/effectivity/effectualness/effectuality by levels 14 to 20? On to the next thing: LA, generally, will not make up for the loss of features you would otherwise gain if you took class levels instead of level adjustment. According to my research, by RAW, you don't have to sleep unless you're a x/day user as any race. Otherwise, there's the Warforged. Heck, take LA +2 and add the Incarnate Construct template if you want to get cheesier. The thing that people don't realize is the cost for the casting of 'Incarnate Construct'. Character idea: This character is a true scout, capable of moving far ahead of the party and surviving any ambush he might trigger. His best asset is speed, followed closely by his ability with his bow. As someone who works best alone, and commonly finds the need to press on without sleep or cover, continuous abilities are more important than draining abilities like spells or rages. His military background (not mechanically), has been geared towards precision strikes, particularly magic users. He is able to slide through defensive lines of lesser troops and find the key target before disappearing in the ensuing chaos. He can fall back on melee, but the intention is harassment until he can draw his bow. Due to his high-priority targets and the specialization, he is afforded high-quality gear. In an adventuring party, he acts primarily as a scout and sniper, occasionally filling the role of covering a tactical retreat due to the survivability (ability to dodge) in melee and speed to catch up. True scout = Mindsight, Quick Reconnoiter feat, True Seeing. Capable of moving far ahead what are we racing, now? = Flight (Alter Self (Planetar?), Hathran Winged Mask, Raptoran, Dragonborn, Invocation, Air Heritage, Gaseous Form?, etc.), Teleportation (Reserve feat, Shadow-walker, a Horizon Walker Planar Trait, one level Wizard (Immediate Magic ACF - Conjurer: Abrupt Jaunt) dip) I don't recommend any of these for moving ahead of the party consistently, Incorporeality (Telthor template (read the handbook at the Brilliant Gameologists forum), Crusader recovery mechanic + Martial Study (One with the Shadow), Meld into Stone, etc.), Chuck (CO forum's response to fastest possible speed), templates (certain templates multiply or add to your speed, e.g. the Dark template which is plain good), and dips into classes that grant Fast Movement (ex?) (e.g. Scout?, Barbarian, Monk?, etc.). IIRC, the Thief-Acrobat PrC aids in movement over difficult terrain. The Elocater PrC has a neat class feature called 'Scorn Earth' that allows you to float, but won't allow you to run. SWASHBUCKLER'S ARCANE STUNT ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURE (ACF) Swift Expeditious Retreat. This person espouses the ability. <- Swashbuckling Ted CO diary link Re: bow ability, eh, I don't know much about archery. I'd love to learn. Re: pressing on without sleep or cover, an alternative to not sleeping at all would be a Ring of Sustenance, Rope Trick spell, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm, Tattooed Monk's Ocean Tattoo?, and caffeinated beverages. I don't know what you mean by "pressing on without cover". If you mean being able to be sneaky without cover [and/or concealment], there are numerous ways around that too. Re: precision strikes on high-priority (spellcaster) targets, we'd have to assume that you're better at CQC (close-quarters combat) than your army was at sniping such targets for the optimization of such tactics. Down to fundamentals, the mechanics would be [post=17617548]flying in with Greater Invisibility[/post] or tumbling your way to your opponent. To be honest, optimization-wise, taking out key targets is quite easy. Dust of Sneezing & Choking makes it all a joke. The real challenge is what you can get past your GM. Re: from one style of combat to another, going from melee to using your bow? It seems contradictory to me. Re: high-quality gear, all the more to-DUST OF SNEEZING AND CHOKING! SNEAK ATTACK! Re: what you want in the build, overall: Sometimes, it's better to think generally than specifically. If you were to face an optimized mage, than there'd be some deeper optimizing to accomplish. These sorts of mages are the ones that can fend off attacks of Dust of Sneezing and Choking, use spells to hit everything in the area excluding themself if they can't find a sneaky foe (Glitterdust), immunize themself to precision damage and poison, etc. I don't have much practical DND experience, but your DM may not always send such mages at you. They'd have to be an optimizer or a deux ex machinist who loves to have recurring villains. Besides, THEY have an unlimited amount of resources. YOU do not. It's the balance between being effective in combat and survival for maximum fun. JanusJones post quoted I like Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe for concealment. I've managed a +31 Hide mod on a 1st level Whispergnome Lurk (Chameleon for a +10, +8 from Race/Size, +5 from Dex, +4 from ranks, +4 from Shape Soulmeld - Kruthik Claws), which ends up being +11 when making a full attack - not bad for 1st level, and a pretty solid defense and attack, all things considered (you have a good chance of not being seen, which fuels sneak attack AND keeps you safe!). You need Ranged Lurk Augment to finish it off, though, so you can snipe (since Fellmist's concealment goes away when you're standing right next to your target). I LOVE good Darkstalker-based Hide characters. My current fave is a Beguiler (the pikachu critters from FRCS - Shining South) Rogue/Umbral Disciple/Totemist, whose Hide modifier (between a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, a +12 from size/race, a 26 Dex, full ranks, camoflauged/muffled armor, and Kruthik Claws) is something like +60. He pounces with Craven each round, shredding for decent amounts of damage (though nothing like what a "real" charger could do - somewhere around 100 points a round). The real fun with him is the combination of the effective invisibility, the one-hit nuke factor, a climb speed, and telepathy+Mindsight (yay for Shedu Crown!). He moves one room ahead of the party, trapfinding and assassinating solo enemies, and telepathically informs everybody of what to expect. He's become a tactical lynchpin for the party, and everybody appreciates knowing what to expect, being able to plan ahead, and never having to deal with traps or non-challenging encounters. The whole "true sight all the time" thing is pretty sweet too. :D Yeah, I know Beguilers are kind of borked, but it's a heavy-play game and I'm DM-ing; technically, my pokemon ninja master is more of a facilitator and deus-ex-machina than anything else (especially since they never see him anymore, and he's always just talking in their MINDS). It works out - I've been meaning to remove him from the party now that they've had enough tactical training to make it on their own (I optimize the HELL out of encounters and am BRUTAL tactically on my players - and they LOVE it!), but they enjoy him so much (he's kind of Belkar-esque; a Neutral Evil, arrogant, "Triumph the insult dog"-style comic relief character) that they've lobbied to keep him, and I have so much damn fun playing him I haven't had the heart to do it. Plus, they've been fighting a lot of demons lately, and everything in MY world with telepathy has Mindsight - about the only thing bar lucky aim with Glitterdust that really annoys a slick Darkstalker. The Beguiler's been getting chewed up a bit, lately. Good to see you, TG! You're missed here, mang. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-991343
#3 phaedrusxy Jan 22, 2009 20:10:30	To effectively fight a caster as a non-caster, you need to be able to a) detect him, b) get to him, and c) keep him from escaping or casting. Figure out how to do those things, and you can be decent against casters that aren't optimized to counter your own tactics. I don't really see how your build does any of that, though. Check the "Mage Killer" link in my sig for several builds that focus on that, and for links to older threads on the same themes. Also, find the Lockdown 2.0 thread. I saw it on the first page just a day or two ago. The "The other killer gnome" is another good thread to check out. It might have some useful stuff in it. It should be available via the Handy Links at the top of the forum. Here is a build from the thread in my sig which might be able to fit your needs: Human Monk2/Hexblade4/Ranger3/HorizonWalker6/OccultSlayer5 (This is an adaptation of a build I found in an old 3 page long thread on caster killing, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=137854)) BAB +19, Base Saves: F12, R9, W14 Feats: Imp. Init., Wpn Focus, Sun School, Mage Slayer, Blind Fight, Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, Stand Still Bonus Feats: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Track, TWF, Endurance Special Abilities: Mettle, Evasion, Cha to Saves, Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds, Spell Turning 2/day Tactics: Ready an action to Dimension Door right next to any enemy that begins casting a spell. When you arrive, you get a free attack on them via the Sun School feat (which may disrupt their spell, and may do double damage depending on how your DM interprets Sun School interacting with the OS special ability). Wield a guisarme, and threaten the area adjacent to you with your unarmed strike. If they try to cast, you get an AoO. If they try to move away from you, you get an AoO (even if they use the Withdraw action), and you can stop them by using your Stand Still feat. This was done before Scout or the Lion Totem barbarian existed, so it can probably be improved on with newer material. It was also done specifically to avoid relying on spellcasting, because the easiest way to beat a caster is to be one. :P
#4 NiteCyper Jan 22, 2009 20:16:01	To effectively fight a caster as a non-caster, you need to be able to a) detect him, b) get to him, and c) keep him from escaping or casting. Figure out how to do those things, and you can be decent against casters that aren't optimized to counter your own tactics. Check the "Mage Killer" link in my sig for several builds that focus on that, and for links to older threads on the same themes. Also, find the Lockdown 2.0 thread. I saw it on the first page just a day or two ago. The "The other killer gnome" is another good thread to check out. It might have some useful stuff in it. It should be available via the Handy Links at the top of the forum. Don't forget Winternacht's recent thread. Discern Location's a great spell. I don't know what to do for step 'B' though.
#5 NiteCyper Jan 22, 2009 20:26:23	AND HOW COULD I FORGET? While we're on the subject of 'spellcaster-bane', how good is the 'Distracting Taunt' skill trick from Dragon 357? (Interaction) You can disrupt an opponent's spells with your taunts. Prereq: Bluff 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks Benefit: As an AoO or readied action, you may attempt to disrupt a spellcaster as he casts a spell. You can make an opposed Bluff check to distract a spellcaster within 20 feet. If you succeed, your target must immediately make a Concentration check (DC 10 + your Bluff bonus + spell level) or lose the spell. justgoogledthis fin.wav (95k) - mp3 (191k) - ogg (181k) Pearl:"What's wrong with his fin?" Tad:"He looks funny! Ow! Hey what did I do? What did I do?" Sea Horse:"Be nice! It's his first time at school." Marlin:"He was born with it kids. We call it his lucky fin." Pearl:"See, this tentacle is actually shorter than all my other tentacles but you can't really tell, especially when I twirl them like this." Sheldon:"I'm H2O intolerant." Tad:"I'm obnoxious."
#6 origamikid89 Jan 22, 2009 21:14:08	Deleted
#7 NiteCyper Jan 22, 2009 21:39:57	Show he is even uncomfortable using magic imbued items (but sees the irony as worth the sacrifice if absolutely needed). You obviously haven't read the 'Sword of Truth' book series. Not an insult, but the series is very focused, for one thing, on a universe where people wage war against magic users. If you've read it, you'd see just how far such an idea goes. If I chose to be a construct, the story would be something to the effect "despise what they made me". Warforged Scout, BTW. I, Robot. Robot uprising. Lemon Demon - When Robots Attack (song). that is the development I want to play out: from, that one's ok to only the one I despise should be the one I hate, or maybe not at all even, tbd. I'm losing you here after the ":" (colon). So melee focus it is. I like the dual wield swords, with the bracer combo backup. Congratulations, Drizz't Clone #ERROR. loljk Personally, I've never read the series, so I don't know about the "bracers" part. In all seriousness, two-weapon fighting (TWFing) is a good way to wrack up extra damage (i.e. precision damage, i.e. sneak-attack damage). The biggest thing I don't know how to optimize is SR or spell immunity even. Just an idea: Half-Golem. It's not practical, I don't think. The caster will see him coming, cast time stop or MM, it doesn't matter, and then be horrified when he continues to close into close combat. Oh, I thought we were going for sneaky. It changes the ideal from "assasain" to "I-wanna-look-bad-asssssssssss". Rod of Absorption. So I think something with a favored enemy (arcanist) Complete Mage, Ranger ACF. *lifts chin with know-it-all pride" Oh great, I want to be a mage-killer, but if I get fried EVERY time I face one, it doesn't make any sense, nor is it fun. Again, I lose you. The sarcasm doesn't transfer well. Occult Slayer PrC.
#8 phaedrusxy Jan 22, 2009 22:00:04	I think Half-Golem is about the only thing that can do what you want. SR isn't the end all be all, nor is magic immunity. If a wizard sees you coming and casts Time Stop, you're pretty much dead. Claw bracers and TWF don't prevent people from just 5 foot stepping away and Teleporting away to come back and kill you later, or casting Time Stop to obliterate you, or casting Gate to summon a pseudonatural Pit Fiend to eat your soul, or whatever. Edit: can stuff from the mage hunter thread be incorporated into a total NON-caster? The only spells the build I posted has is 1st level Hexblade spells, and you could drop the last level of Hexblade and get rid of those and not hurt it a bit.
#9 NiteCyper Jan 22, 2009 22:22:37	casting Gate to summon a pseudonatural Pit Fiend to eat your soul, or whatever. lol, where'd that come from? Also, Suel Arcanamach, remember?
#10 grifter730_dup Jan 22, 2009 22:48:06	Warblade with Iron Heart Surge maneuver may be very helpful. Do you consider psionics to be the same as magic? If not, then a melee psionic might be a possible route too.
#11 origamikid89 Jan 22, 2009 22:56:26	Thx, I'll try and put something together tomorrow and see if I can go from there. That would probably be more clear anyway.
#12 winternacht Jan 23, 2009 4:05:58	Maybe this is a little "extrem", but it might have some ideas to consider. It's a build I did for a friend to play in an upcoming game, though I changed it, taking out the things from FR sourcebooks. Race: Feral Dark Dragonborn Dwarf (LA+2) Scores: Str:14 Dex:14 Con:16 Int:14 Wis:12 Cha:8 After Race: Str:18 Dex:10 Con:22 Int:10 Wis:14 Cha:6 Final stats: Str:18 Dex:10 Con:28 Int:10 Wis:14 Cha:6 Racial Boni Feral gives you: Pounce; Rend; Rake; Fasthealing 5; darkvision 120ft.(150 ft. later on); Landspeed +10ft.; Dark gives you: Hide in plain sight (shadows); Speed +10ft.; Resist Cold 10; Superior LLV; +8 Hide; +6 Move Silently Dragonborn gives you: Wings
#13 origamikid89 Jan 28, 2009 23:45:23	Here's what I've come up with... please comment/improve/tear apart. Race: Dragonkin DRAGONKIN PLAYER CHARACTERS Dragonkin characters possess the following racial traits. — +8 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. Dragonkin are powerful creatures that derive great abilities from their ancestral tie with the dragons. —Large size: –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, lifting and carrying limits twice those of Medium characters. —A dragonkin’s base land speed is 20 feet. It has a fly speed of 40 feet (good). —Natural Attacks: A dragonkin is proficient with its claw attacks, which deal 1d6 points of damage each. If it uses a claw as a secondary weapon (along with a weapon held in the other hand), it takes the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting. When making a full attack while airborne, a dragonkin character may also make two additional attacks with its rear claws at its full base attack bonus (with a –5 penalty if also attacking with a weapon). —Dragonkin can use detect magic at will as a supernatural ability, as a sorcerer whose level is equal to the dragonkin’s HD. —Racial Hit Dice: A dragonkin begins with seven levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 7d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +7, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5. —Racial Skills: A dragonkin’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 10
#14 winternacht Jan 29, 2009 4:28:47	As you wrote: —Racial Hit Dice: A dragonkin begins with seven levels of monstrous humanoid So you don't have 19 levels, but 12!
#15 origamikid89 Jan 29, 2009 9:10:48	It's only a lvl adjustment of +2... isn't the seven "levels" of monstrous just HD, feats, etc? Even if it wasn't, it's still receiving skill points, full BAB, flight, and detect magic at will. So 7+2, allowing 1 bought off, 12 class levels is all I really need, considering I get most of my abilities through race/templates. I only need 1 favored enemy.
#16 NiteCyper Jan 29, 2009 18:59:12	Lolth-Touched? Also, Vecna-blooded. Dark template: no LA if dragonkin It specifically mentions CR, not LA. Shadesteel Half-Golem looks sweet. I think Feral, Dragonkin and Dragonborn are extraneous. Dragonborn penalizes Dex. Vecna-blooded Shadesteel Half-Golem Dark? Beguiler (Ss). Ah, a God-Wizard's worst nightmare, other than Ice Assassin. Edit: and surprise-Chokers ;) Edit 2: Don't forget the anti-magic torc! Maybe you can perform a Ritual of Unlearning to become a Choker and screw spellcasters for good! Daiyamn, that'd be hella sweet! Epically use the Hide check to hide the Wizard after choking them and, slowly, creepingly, dauntingly, loomingly, pick, off, every, single, last, one of a group of do-gooders, one, by, one... INDIVIDUALLY! red: least evil word of all the adjectives Edit 3: And maybe the Jaunter PrC. Quicker than the Eye feat for more actions per round.
#17 phaedrusxy Jan 29, 2009 20:27:24	I am immune to all magic that directly targets me. No, you're immune to all magic that allows Spell Resistance. If I threaten (15 or 20 ft, depending on weapon), he can't cast without me attacking first. He can just move outside of your reach, and then cast. You get an AoO, but it probably won't kill him. I don't see any way to prevent movement, like Stand Still, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, etc. Nice catch on Detect Magic going through walls, though. I hadn't noticed that before.
#18 origamikid89 Jan 29, 2009 20:46:39	Vecna-blooded Shadesteel Half-Golem Dark? Beguiler (Ss) No good. This build does not spell-cast, or anything similar in transparency rules. I'm going to throw ToB in the scrap pile as well. I want a water vs fire, not fire vs fire scenario. Plus, I don't want to be disabled in the AMF I WILL be casting ASAP. So I need a race... 8-9 lvls is too much for detect magic at will; 2 lvls beyond 1 in occult slayer does the same. Fly can be done by granting half-golem wings (yeah ) instead of replacing an arm. Since I'm not going pure swift hunter, the +1 LA for Dark to get HiPS is worth it. I still like the idea of a large race; it lets me wield a large fullblade (3d8!) with reach 15', and he can't cast if I threaten. if it's high enough, hide > invisibility does SI stop divination? DA will be a weapon enhancement. Weak points needing covering: -Stuff not blocked by SI and/or AMF -AMF at will -stop TS!!!! -win initiative -i'm sure there's other holes... I'll say done when cheese batman, unless optimized against THIS particular build, doesn't usually win (draw, running away is not winning). Edit Nice catch on Detect Magic going through walls, though. I hadn't noticed that before. Nemisis feat actually does this, not detect magic.
#19 NiteCyper Jan 29, 2009 20:59:16	I took out most of the useful advice No good. This build does not spell-cast, or anything similar in transparency rules. 1. Take levels in a spellcasting class. 2. Transparency? What? Oh! You know what. I thought this was an "anything goes" thread. I thought it was Winternacht's similar "mage slayer" thread. As well, it is not easy to find the restrictions for your character when you've "spoiler"ed them. Edit: An easy google. I'm going to throw ToB in the scrap pile as well. I want a water vs fire, not fire vs fire scenario. Plus, I don't want to be disabled in the AMF I WILL be casting ASAP. advice So I need a race... advice 8-9 lvls is too much for detect magic at will; 2 lvls beyond 1 in occult slayer does the same. advice he can't cast if I threaten. They only have to make a concentration check. does SI stop divination? Not Discern Location, which is why advice. DA will be a weapon enhancement. Fly can be done by granting half-golem wings (yeah ) instead of replacing an arm. -stop TS!!!! Eh, okay? -AMF at will I already said this advice.
#20 NiteCyper Jan 29, 2009 21:29:42	It is unlikely to possess Shadesteel Golem parts because the art of crafting Shadesteel golems is hidden, as told by their descriptions in MM3, P.72(73). Edit: Re: Golem Wings: Dragonflesh Golems. Eh, is it easy to find out the bonuses from parts from newer golems? I just want to know if we're stuck with the 4 from MMI.
#21 origamikid89 Jan 29, 2009 21:34:40	I guess I haven't been clear. I (personally) have chosen for no reason except taste to exclude spellcasting classes. Arcane, Divine, Shadow, Psionics, Incarnum, Truename, Pact, "sword magic", etc. The basic idea now is hide, attack, either killing outright or not allowing the mage to escape and killing them quickly. It is unlikely to possess Shadesteel Golem parts because the art of crafting Shadesteel golems is hidden, as told by their descriptions in MM3, P.72(73). True. I guess this is kind of an allowance. The back-story I was tossing around was an experiment gone wrong turns on ALL spell casters. If I am already "Dark" though, and there is a shadowsmith PrC, it's not unreasonable. It is definitely not the "original" use of HG of cheaply replacing limbs. Edit: Re: Golem Wings: Dragonflesh Golems. Eh, is it easy to find out the bonuses from parts from newer golems? I just want to know if we're stuck with the 4 from MMI. The bonuses are the same for all the presented: 1/2 rounded down on all bonuses, plus the same spell immunity, plus half of the goodies (or half as effective). I figured if you can be any half-dragon, you could be any half-golem. Maybe not RAW, but certainly reasonable.
#22 NiteCyper Jan 29, 2009 22:46:10	Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show Show To say that it isn't unreasonable for you or someone else to find legendary sought-after arcane knowledge to create golem parts with and have grafted onto you simply because you possess traits from the plane from which the golem parts are created and because there exists some obscure PrC that is able to harness magic on another form is unreasonable. Heck, you might as well create a custom class. Everything's fair when you 'splain it t'yer DM that way, right? *shrug* 12
#23 origamikid89 Jan 29, 2009 23:23:02	So what's the verdict? I took it as a really (especially shadesteel) expensive "item" that you "wear" with your body. It's potentially the "cheesiest" part of this build, but going total non-caster (not even UMD), it doesn't seem game-breaking.
#24 NiteCyper Jan 30, 2009 0:01:19	So what's the verdict? I took it as a really (especially shadesteel) expensive "item" that you "wear" with your body. It's potentially the "cheesiest" part of this build, but going total non-caster (not even UMD), it doesn't seem game-breaking. If you can get your DM to let you play a Half-Golem, good. If you can get your DM to let you play a Shadesteel Half-Golem, great. In terms of how much it'll help in assassinating mages, it's wicked. I highly recommend the Iron Golem's Breath weapon special attack. It's like Death Attack but, overall, better. Otherwise, it's simply a LA N/A template not suitable for PCs. Then, you'll want to go for the Occult Slayer PrC and whatnot. Check out Winternacht's Mage Hunter thread.
#25 origamikid89 Jan 30, 2009 0:52:00	So, assuming half-golem, which race? Human or something else?
#26 NiteCyper Jan 30, 2009 1:05:15	Human, Whisper Gnome, Beguiler (Shining South - FRCS, goes against Greyhawk restrictions?). There's also the Pixie (monster class, ritual (SS)). Unless you plan to be a CQC who doesn't stay hidden as much as...humanly...possible.