Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thebetterman Jul 30, 2013 14:10:55	I'm going to be starting a 3.5E D&D game soon and would appreciate some help with a build.  I have an idea for what I want the character to do, but I'm not sure of the best way to go about it or the optimal order in which to take feats. What I'd basically like to do is have a Dwarf Fighter dual wielding Dwarven Waraxes with a focus on AoOs and possibly Trip.  The character would start at level 1, likely wielding a shield offhand until TWF is feasible.  Any feats from supplemental books are possible.  I would like to keep the character full Fighter, unless there is significant bonuses from multi-classing. I know I'll need TWF and Imp TWF, as well as Oversized TWF.  I would also take Double Hit, which would require Combat Reflexes, and possibly Side Step, which would require Dodge and Mobility.  Since I would already have Dodge and Mobility I might also take Elusive Target. Added to this I would want to eventually get Imp Trip and Combat Expertise. That's as far as I've gotten in the development of the character, and I would appreciate any advice on the concept, as well as when to take certain feats.  I'm wondering, specifically, if this build would spread my stats too thin, since I would need an Int of 13 and a Dex of at least 17. I'm building the character more for the concept than power, but having said that I don't want him to be useless in a fight.  The feats seem to mesh well, however, and would seem to allow for a lot of movement and AoOs in combat, as well as multiple trips.
#2 draco1119 Jul 30, 2013 14:42:55	In all honesty, you're trying to do too much. Like, WAY too much. Here is a dwarf build that doesn't use reach, but creates its own difficult terrain for battlefield control.  A few posts up from that is another build that uses psionics in order to increase reach.
#3 thebetterman Jul 30, 2013 15:03:45	In all honesty, you're trying to do too much. Like, WAY too much. Here is a dwarf build that doesn't use reach, but creates its own difficult terrain for battlefield control.  A few posts up from that is another build that uses psionics in order to increase reach. I was hoping to keep the build as simple as possible, and that one is so complex I wouldn't even know where to begin.  5 classes is a lot for someone who hasn't played 3.5 in almost a decade.  I doubt I would make very good use of something like that.
#4 draco1119 Jul 30, 2013 16:09:36	In all honesty, you're trying to do too much. Like, WAY too much. Here is a dwarf build that doesn't use reach, but creates its own difficult terrain for battlefield control.  A few posts up from that is another build that uses psionics in order to increase reach. I was hoping to keep the build as simple as possible, and that one is so complex I wouldn't even know where to begin.  5 classes is a lot for someone who hasn't played 3.5 in almost a decade.  I doubt I would make very good use of something like that. Then use the other one I mentioned.  It only uses three classes, with one of them being Fighter.
#5 piggyknowles Jul 30, 2013 16:13:08	My thoughts... 1.  If you want a single class that works more or less out of the box, I can't recommend crusader highly enough for something like this. 2.  TWF is notoriously hard to work right in 3.5.  There are several reasons for this - marginalized attack rolls, too many ability score requirements, fewer consistent damage boosts for weapons wielded in one hand, reliance on full attacks (and the restricted mobility that comes along with it), etc. 3.  On the other hand, crusaders actually have enough to do and enough maneuvers that up damage to where they can get away without the two-handed returns on power attack. 4.  But... TWFing still doesn't work that well.  It's doable, but eh.  What about using Improved Shield Bash/Agile Shield Fighter instead of the standard TWF?  This way you'd be fighting with dwarven waraxe and shield, slamming with your shield as an offhand attack.  (Agile Shield Fighter appears in PHB2.)  This would also open up Shield Charge (Complete Warrior, charge and make a shield bash for a free trip attempt) and Shield Slam (Complete Warrior, force enemies to make a fortitude save or be dazed when you charge with a shield). So, take a crusader.  Fight with dwarven waraxe and shield, using Agile Shield Fighter to wield both as you attack (best of all, unlock regular TWF, you don't need any Dexterity to do this).  Focus on the maneuvers and stances that boost charging, and that let you lock down the battlefield. Leading the Charge + Shield Charge + Shield Slam means you've got a nice way to open up combat, charging in dealing bonus damage from Lead the Charge, slamming the enemy with your shield, knocking him to the ground and forcing him to save or become dazed.  You'll boost your allies as well while you're at it.  That's really not a bad start, all things considered! You can also pick up the Devoted Spirit maneuver Shield Counter, which is like the shield version of Wall of Blades. I can try to work up a full build for you later if you'd like, but you can put together a dwarven Crusader 20 that does this fairly well without too much work.  Just make sure to take Extra Granted Maneuver, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Slam and Agile Shield Fighter.  Consider also nabbing Parrying Shield, which adds your shield bonus to your touch AC - not too shabby, as that would otherwise be a weak spot for you.
#6 StevenO Jul 30, 2013 16:31:01	In all honesty, you're trying to do too much. Like, WAY too much. Here is a dwarf build that doesn't use reach, but creates its own difficult terrain for battlefield control.  A few posts up from that is another build that uses psionics in order to increase reach. I was hoping to keep the build as simple as possible, and that one is so complex I wouldn't even know where to begin.  5 classes is a lot for someone who hasn't played 3.5 in almost a decade.  I doubt I would make very good use of something like that. Look at what you wanted:  TWF, Dwarven Waraxes, Focus on AoO, and Tripping.  If you want someone who can do all of that you are going to be looking at complex at the very minimum.  That's even ignoring those who will say you probably shouldn't try to do so much which I guess I am going to fall into. If you're going to try optimizing AoO why not make sure the weapon you use is up for it?  I mean simply using a two-handed weapon will almost certainly boost the damage you are going to cause. With TWF I'll say you're fighitng a losing battle when you start looking at the later feats.  Oversized TWF doesn't gain you much although it costs you a feat.  I mean weilding a light throwing ax or handaxe in your off-hand instead of a war-axe only costs you 2 points of damage on average; using the throwing axe even has a ranged attack waiting in your hand for use.  Improved TWF as a feat (you can get it via a magic item in the MIC) gives you a less accurate attack that you will only occasionally use so is it really worth it?
#7 thebetterman Jul 30, 2013 18:23:32	In all honesty, you're trying to do too much. Like, WAY too much. Here is a dwarf build that doesn't use reach, but creates its own difficult terrain for battlefield control.  A few posts up from that is another build that uses psionics in order to increase reach. I was hoping to keep the build as simple as possible, and that one is so complex I wouldn't even know where to begin.  5 classes is a lot for someone who hasn't played 3.5 in almost a decade.  I doubt I would make very good use of something like that. Look at what you wanted:  TWF, Dwarven Waraxes, Focus on AoO, and Tripping.  If you want someone who can do all of that you are going to be looking at complex at the very minimum.  That's even ignoring those who will say you probably shouldn't try to do so much which I guess I am going to fall into. If you're going to try optimizing AoO why not make sure the weapon you use is up for it?  I mean simply using a two-handed weapon will almost certainly boost the damage you are going to cause. To me, complex means multi-classing and using advanced/prestige classes.  A pure fighter is, to me, simple and easy to understand, which is why I was trying to limit the build to purely fighter, or at the least limited multiclassing.  I haven't played 3.5 in a long time so I was hoping to stay away from multiple class features, manuevers, psionics, etc.  I know this would limit the character's effectiveness, but I figured the ease of playing it would negate a small loss of power.  From the advice I'm getting, though, it seems like playing a pure fighter is a substantially greater loss of ability for the character than I was assuming it would be. I didn't realize that TWFing was such a poor choice for fighters, and it was pretty much the basis for the character, so I may just need to rethink the concept in its' entirety.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 30, 2013 19:47:13	I can show you pure Fighter 20s who are much more complex to build and play than either of Draco's builds (which are quite good at the basic idea). Complexity isn't about how many elements go into something. It's how much those elements interact. For instance, you might have a character with two tactical feats that interact with each other, forcing you to keep two separate counts going for how many rounds have passed - or as many as six separate counts, depending on your actions and maneuvers. All the while you will have a list of three or four things you can do with each and every attack, and a list of how many new things provoke AoOs from you, and a count of how many AoOs you've taken, and a lot of equipment with triggered effects, plus the entire game of "Let's Pick The Right Power Attack Value Today!" (the simple version, "max PA for everything", only works if you've got substantial optimization skill, on top of everything else I've listed here). Meanwhile, you could pick up, say, a simple crusader/fighter/deepstone sentinel and have everything you need at your fingertips, right in front of you, clearly delineated, and - in this case - not even all available at once (think having a small hand of cards and you draw a new one every round).
#9 vortsukoto Jul 31, 2013 3:10:58	Without a reach weapon AoOs aren't a very good answer. You can't force enough of them to make it matter. Unless you're using a trip specializing weapon, Trip will drain too many feats off you to be nice until you've got down your other feats. Dwarven Waraxes, while a boon in some cases, are not useful to the average up front fighter build. All that being said, I can build you a "simple" character that should get fulfill most of your requirements for fighting style though not for your themes. None of those ToB maneuvers darkening your day though. It will have to be a Diopsid (Dragon Compendium pg. 10) rather than a dwarf and thus suffer a +1 level adjustment preventing its use for 1st level play. It will be using halberd (or possibly a Dwarven Warpike) instead of a Dwarven Waraxe. The build however will dual wield effectively, can sort of AoO, Trip, and do all of this without requiring ability scores that are too high ever see use. Since that result is so far away from your initial request though, I won't go into detail if you don't have any interest in it.