Of course, this determines what you want to do with you paladin.
Are horses (ie, pally mount) going to be usable in the game? Lots of dungeons or caves, a horse would be a liability. Since you are stuck with the 3 Core books, you have very little in the way of options. See if your DM will allow this site for additional content. It will give you some variants for a paladin. it has a splash of Unearthed Arcana in there and is open sourced.
My personal preference is (in order): Strength, Consitution, Wisdom = Charisma, Intelligence, Dexterity
Of course, this determines what you want to do with you paladin.
Are horses (ie, pally mount) going to be usable in the game? Lots of dungeons or caves, a horse would be a liability. Since you are stuck with the 3 Core books, you have very little in the way of options. See if your DM will allow this site for additional content. It will give you some variants for a paladin. it has a splash of Unearthed Arcana in there and is open sourced.
DM would not give us that info, he said build your character how you want, and see how he/she fair's. So we don't know if there'll be any dungeons or caves.
Check the Handbooks link in my sig. In my opinion, stat order is CHA>CON>STR>WIS>DEX>INT, with DEX only useful to augment the Ride Skill/REF Save and INT a Dump stat, especially in an environment like you describe where it'll be hard to PrC.
Yeah, trouble with Paladin is the fact it isn't very Multi-Classed Efficient because of its need to finish leveling before you can dip into anything else.
I was thinking of maybe dumping a semi-decent stat into dex for a +2, take a tower shield feat, wear chainmail, and that will give me the same as if I was wearing full-plate. Then I could take those combat oriented feats (Spring Attack...)? Thoughts? -2 to attack blows... is being able to use full cover worth it?
Two Weapon Fighting (PHB): Unless you know what you are doing, this is very bad.
What does he mean by this? There's a way to actually TWF a paladin? Thats crazy lol, hits to armor and no shield would make this.. like a offense paladin more than anything.
Leadership (PHB): This is one of the best feats you can acquire both for flavor and optimization reasons.
Why is this the best?
Yeah, trouble with Paladin is the fact it isn't very Multi-Classed Efficient because of its need to finish leveling before you can dip into anything else.
In a non-Core game, most don't recommend more than 2 - 3 levels of Paladin unless the Mount is very important, as in a Charger (lance based) build. Get your goodies and get out. Tougher in Core.
I was thinking of maybe dumping a semi-decent stat into dex for a +2, take a tower shield feat, wear chainmail, and that will give me the same as if I was wearing full-plate. Then I could take those combat oriented feats (Spring Attack...)? Thoughts? -2 to attack blows... is being able to use full cover worth it?
Tower Shield is, IMO, not worth the Feat if you have to pay it. Typically, your best bet is to put a 14+ into CHA and STR, get the best 2H Weapon you can, and Smite your enemies into oblivion. Your average damage will be considerably higher than attempting to use Sword and Board.
What does he mean by this? There's a way to actually TWF a paladin? Thats crazy lol, hits to armor and no shield would make this.. like a offense paladin more than anything.
Assuming the stats for it, TWF a Pally is as easy as taking the Feat. It's not a great option, though, because of the hit to Damage potential and AC you'll take. If you feel compelled to do this anyway, my recommendation is Guisarme & Spiked Armor so you're at least dealing with enemies at a variety of ranges.
Why is this the best?
Leadership is powerful, because it grants the party an extra member without giving up any XP loss, allowing the party to cover any weak spots without someone dipping out of their preferred niche.
There you go.
Problem though is that the 3 kick butt spells out of Complete Champion you cant get because your not a full fledged Paladin. So get a archavist to research them, cast them on you by persisting them and BAM! your now a paladin who can ride over anything, charge and kick butt all rolled into 1
. I forget the spell named, but one of them is called WAR - Mount.You may want to try a mounted character, go Paladin 5/Cavalier 10/XXX 5.
Problem though is that the 3 kick butt spells out of Complete Champion you cant get because your not a full fledged Paladin. So get a archavist to research them, cast them on you by persisting them and BAM! your now a paladin who can ride over anything, charge and kick butt all rolled into 1
That's going to be tough to do without any splatbooks.
Or, if your DM feels so inclined, try to weedle him into letting you take Improved Buckler Defense. It is a feat from Complete warrior that allows you to use a buckler AND keep its AC bonus when TWFing or using a 2 handed weapon (no prereqs and only a -1 to hit). Perfect for a greatsword weilding paladin. You could do the same thing with a animated shield at higher levels, but why?
It is true that the Tower Shield is pretty lame, you give up -2 Attack, two-handed dmg + str bonus to dmg, all for +2 AC. The only weighing advantage a tower shield can give is the ablity to go into full cover, but then you can't make an attack. Useful when blocking a doorway.. can you by chance go into full cover and cast a spell? Also that means you can't make AoO right?
Two-Handed sword'd pally, going for offense instead of playing D.. it only seems right to wear medium armor and boost your Dex to get Spring Attack. Or I'm I just over-praising / looking SA?
Or, if your DM feels so inclined, try to weedle him into letting you take Improved Buckler Defense.
He said no.
For your race, I'd go with Gnome for a mounted build since a medium-size mount is more likely to fit inside a dungeon crawl. Wild Elf or Wood Elf (MM) are also decent choices, especially if you want to boost your dex and wear medium or light armor. Also remember that a good Dex helps out your weak Reflex save, and the Elf bonus versus Enchantments and the Paladin's immunity to fear will make up for your low Will save.
One build to consider would be a Wood Elf Ranger/Paladin/Horizon Walker. Get the Archery combat style from Ranger, or the Strong-Arm style if permitted. Something like Ranger 3/ Paladin 2 or 3/ Horizon Walker would work out well, take Paladin after your second Ranger level if strong-arm, or after your first Ranger level with the archery style. Still use a Glaive with Combat Reflexes at level 1, with the archery style get Power Attack at 3, with the Strong-Arm style get Cleave at 3. Mabye consider going for Spring Attack after all, and go Ranger 3/ Paladin 3/ Horizon Walker 1/ Shadowdancer 2, then take more Horizon Walker until you can get Shifting terrain mastery. This would probably be one of the most versatile core-only builds you could make that's not a full spellcaster. It would be more of a damage dealer and skill check character than a combat tank, but definitely enjoyable and capable of getting out of more situations than just a combat character can.
Remember that you can use wands of any spells on any of your class spell lists even if you can't cast any spells yet, as long as your Wisdom score is high enough to cast the spell in question. At Paladin 1 with Wisdom 11+ you can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, for example. Using one of those to heal up between encounters is far more efficient than using potions or scrolls, or having a character use up their prepared spells.
Important feats: power attack, multiattack, fly-by attack (once you get wings)
You can end up being immune to fear, sleep, paralysis, and fatigue.
Hey guys, brewing up a 3.5 php/dmg/mm onry Paladin. Was wondering the best Optimization method for it? Having trouble with feats and were to put those stats at!
Have you decided on a race yet? Dwarven Defender springs to mind from core, especially with the penchant for defense you seem to be displaying.
For almost all of the reasons that I can think of, with the possible exception of wanting to play a charging smiter (which to really get going requires some feats that aren't available to you), a straight up
CLERIC 20
will do you much better.
Yes, that's right. You get better spellcasting, better healing, and with Divine Power, equal BAB. It has the Holy Warrior flavor, and you can without a doubt, using only Core, tank like a fiend. Drop high stats on Wisdom, Con, and Str, and you can go full out.
Unless you're wedded to the idea of playing a paladin, please consider my advice. I'm serious. I've played core only paladins, and cried afterwards.
Clerics do it better.
May I ask why you want to play a Paladin?
We have a Wizard, Thief, and Cleric at the moment. I could go Fighter or Barbarian.. but I thought a Defender would be better?
Yes, that's right. You get better spellcasting, better healing, and with Divine Power, equal BAB. It has the Holy Warrior flavor, and you can without a doubt, using only Core, tank like a fiend. Drop high stats on Wisdom, Con, and Str, and you can go full out.
Unless you're wedded to the idea of playing a paladin, please consider my advice. I'm serious. I've played core only paladins, and cried afterwards.
Clerics do it better
Tank like a fiend and can dish out more damage? Could you go in more detail on the exact ways you can tank better and or do more damage compared to a Paladin? I can see a couple of draw-backs, casting spells after battle starts to get the BAB of a paladin. Feats spent to get weapons better than simple. I've never played a Cleric though, so I can't say for sure what your talking about?
Now that I think about your comment, why wouldn't we want to go 3 Clerics and a Thief? lol
Have you decided on a race yet?
Nope!
What's your starting level?
Level 1.
So yes, a Cleric does it FAR better if they want to.
JaronK
DMM Persist to Persist Divine Power gives Clerics full BAB and +6 Strength. Persist Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and now the Cleric and his whole party has an additional attack, plus other bonuses. Righteous Might gives even more abilities.
So yes, a Cleric does it FAR better if they want to.
JaronK
Is DMM in Core?
JaronK
Fair enough, it's not... but Divine Power and Righteous Might and Divine Favor all are. So's Shapechange (Animal Domain 9) and Polymorph Any Object (Trickery, I think?) which are obviously incredible.
JaronK
Almost sounds like you're saying Melee is broken in some respects. Why would I want to dink around with a Paladin who can only smite things a couple times a day... when I could be casting Shapechange into a dragon? :raincloud
Almost sounds like you're saying Melee is broken in some respects. Why would I want to dink around with a Paladin who can only smite things a couple times a day... when I could be casting Shapechange into a dragon? :raincloud
Yep. At high levels, Melee is generally broken. In the bad kind of "doesn't work" sense of the word.
As to why... that's a question that you have to ask yourself. You can still, with a Cleric, and Righteous Might and Divine Power/Favor, "do" melee, if that's your flavor. And do it better than almost any melee class of equivalent level. Heck, prepare Inflict Wounds/Harm and hit people with it and a morningstar at the same time: Smite 2.0. Best bit is if hunting undead, you can flip it and prepare heal, and if you use it for damage, great, and if not, well, it's healing. Or, if you're still wanting the holy warrior bit, channel positive energy, and you can just cure things - heal if alive and "smite" if undead.
Almost sounds like you're saying Melee is broken in some respects. Why would I want to dink around with a Paladin who can only smite things a couple times a day... when I could be casting Shapechange into a dragon? :raincloud
If by "melee is broken" you mean "melees cannot compete with spellcasters at high level" then you're absolutely correct.
JaronK