Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 naltaca Jun 01, 2010 22:48:16	I've read through most of the rogue CO threads I could find, but I was looking for some help more along the lines of a Rogue CO based off of just the base classes and races via PHB. Any input in regards to race selections or suggestions for melee builds would be greatly appreciated.
#2 carnivore Jun 02, 2010 4:40:11	most races can be used to make a decent Rogue.... it depends on what you want to do with it do you want to only use the Base classes in the PHB? if so there are several builds that work well Rogue 12/ Ranger 8 .... is very Nice: BAB +17 6d6 Sneak Attack Base Saves = +10 Fort/ +14 Ref/ +6 Will cast 2nd lvl Divine good hp great Skills(only 16 less than Rogue 20)  Race: Human or Halfling if you want to focus more on Combat .... try this: Rogue 8/ Fighter 12 BAB +18 4d6 Sneak Attack Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization lots of feats works great as an Archer character Race: Human or Dwarf Rogue 12/ Barbarian 8 BAB +17 6d6 Sneak Attack +6 Trap Sense Imp Uncanny Dodge great Hp Rage 3/day makes a Great Scout and Trapfinding character Race: Human or Halfling or 1/2 Elf Rogue 4/ Fighter 4/ Monk 12 BAB +16 2d6 Sneak Attack Greater Flurry 2d6 Unarmed Damage Weapon Specialization +40 Speed makes a nice Unarmed character .... very unremarkable, looks like a peasant or Beggar Race: Human etc...... what are you looking for? can the prestige classes in the DMG be used?  .... if so you can get really fun builds
#3 naltaca Jun 03, 2010 0:43:30	First off, thank you for the detail and variety of choices. I haven't played DnD for quite some time and am looking into getting back into it. The rogue was always a character after my own heart, but I'm not sure that when I played it, that I did so to the best of its abilities. I've read many articles on the forums here and have found some inclinitations in regards to rogues having a good chance to hit as well as a high damage potential. Whenever I played my rogue, most of the other characters, it seemed, did more damage than I did, except for perhaps the occasional opportunity I would get to use my sneak attack. Even then when I did find myself with a chance to flank someone or attack stealthily, my hits were few and far between whether due to the fact that I had consistently poor rolls, or if I failed to grasp the concept of min-maxing. I say all this because I'm trying to reaquaint myself with the details of the game and am trying to do sort of a second take on it to make sure I'm using everything available to the best of my abilities. The reason I'd prefer to stray away from PrC's and class/races outside of the PHB is because of the complexity of the vast amount of extra materials, as well as access to them, in regards to attempting to recruit first-timers and new players to the game in hopes of making a group. I recently read through all of the player's handbook so I'm fairly familiar with each of the classes as well as the PHB racial abilities, but I haven't quite gotten through my re-reading of the DMG. I'm anxious to hear input about said "really fun builds" available if integration of PrC from the DMG are used. Not that I'm trying to be close-minded; to be honest, I'm open for any and all variety I can get. The only thing I'm worried of is trying to take in too many classes, prestige classes, and races foreign to the PHB; with all this new information, it can be difficult to make sure all the rules are being adhered to, as well as explain the game and the nuiances of variety outside the PHB to new players and first-timers. Once again, I appreciate the response and helpfulness of your post. I really do love the rogue, or at least past experiences I've had with the class. So far it has been my impression that in order to have a kick-ass rogue, he needs to be multi-classed. I'm curious as to why this seems to be the case 9/10 times that I've seen folks talking about rogue CO. Also, as far as the race choices you listed, if it's not too much to ask, would you mind elaborating possible pros and cons of the given races that you listed? In my perusing of the forums, I also notice a lot that people don't seem to favor elven rogues; why is that?
#4 phaedrusxy Jun 03, 2010 11:33:24	In my perusing of the forums, I also notice a lot that people don't seem to favor elven rogues; why is that? On this (the optimization) forum? Or other D&D forums? Elves don't actually make very good rogues... or anything... because of their Con penalty. If you go with a variety that doesn't have a Con penalty, they can be decent, but there are still likely better racial choices. People generally play elves for one of two reasons: 1) they just like elves, for "flavor" reasons, 2) there are a zillion different racial variants, and you can usually find one with a racial bonus to whatever stat(s) you're interested in. I guess a grey elf might be decent... if you could stomach the con hit. Becoming a necropolitan might help with that...
#5 naltaca Jun 03, 2010 12:22:39	So the Con loss really is that detrimental that the dexterity doesn't make up for it? From my perspective, dexterity has always been very important for rogues, but perhaps my point of view is a bit skewed. I'd appreciate any elaboration you could provide on the issue of deterity importance for a rogue versus the health loss for picking an elf (feel free to list off importance of each attribute for a rogue).
#6 sanguinesphinx Jun 03, 2010 12:28:10	I don't see why you couldn't balance out the lower CON and higher DEX by simply putting your highest roll in CON and second highest in DEX. But I'm by no means skilled in optimization.
#7 phaedrusxy Jun 03, 2010 12:38:22	I don't see why you couldn't balance out the lower CON and higher DEX by simply putting your highest roll in CON and second highest in DEX. But I'm by no means skilled in optimization. You could... but you'd still be worse off than a halfling who gets a +2 racial bonus to Dex and no Con penalty, so he'll always have an ability score advantage over you. He is also small size which is actually a benefit when you want to be sneaky. A gnome has a racial Con bonus and no Dex penalty, and is also small, and has several variants with large racial bonuses to hide. Basically, for rogues elf is mechanically worse than just about any other race except half-orc or half-elf. Con is one of the most important stats in D&D for just about every character imaginable, except those that get rid of the need for it somehow (undead, etc). You can never have too many hit points, and Fortitude saves are often quite important (many "save or die" effects are Fort saves).
#8 naltaca Jun 03, 2010 12:55:52	The penalty for STR as a halfling, as well as the loss in damage because of size, is not big enough to pass up being a halfling or does it just assume that you're getting more use out of the character's size because you want your character to be more sneaky and therefore accept the damage loss. Another thing here, is that when I think in regards to a rogue I generally think of the lower levels. With the STR penalty as a halfling, that takes away from some of your melee hit, as well as damage. I'm guessing the reason STR isn't valued as much here is because of Weapon Finesse? Also, why is a half-elf a bad choice?
#9 phaedrusxy Jun 03, 2010 13:25:58	The penalty for STR as a halfling, as well as the loss in damage because of size, is not big enough to pass up being a halfling or does it just assume that you're getting more use out of the character's size because you want your character to be more sneaky and therefore accept the damage loss. Another thing here, is that when I think in regards to a rogue I generally think of the lower levels. With the STR penalty as a halfling, that takes away from some of your melee hit, as well as damage. I'm guessing the reason STR isn't valued as much here is because of Weapon Finesse? Also, why is a half-elf a bad choice? You get a +1 to hit from being small, and you should be relying on Weapon Finesse if you want to melee. Most of your damage will be from sneak attack, so the -2 Str penalty doesn't really matter much at all for that, and neither does weapon size. Before you pick up Weapon Finesse, you should avoid melee and use ranged weapons... D&D really is almost a different game at the really low levels (1-2ish) than it is at the mid levels, and it is yet again something else at the high levels. I usually think of the mid levels, like 5-12 or so, which is where most of the games I've played in took place at. And why would half-elf be a good choice? Seriously. Just look at it. It brings almost nothing to the table that isn't completely trumped by some other race.
#10 naltaca Jun 03, 2010 14:02:37	If using ranged weapons at lower levels is the best way to go, what's the best way take advantage of your ranged attacks and sneak attacks? I realize you can perform a sneak attack on a flat-footed target, but how would you get more sneak attacks in after that? It isn't possible to flank with a ranged weapon, at least not that I'm aware of, and I'm not sure of a good method to rehide in combat in order to pop off more sneak attacks. What are the best feat choices for a rogue at low levels? And it seems that in order for a rogue to be used to the best of its abilities, it needs to be multi-classed. My question in regards to that is: how does multi-classing tie into the role-playing aspect of the game?
#11 carnivore Jun 03, 2010 14:17:12	If using ranged weapons at lower levels is the best way to go, what's the best way take advantage of your ranged attacks and sneak attacks? I realize you can perform a sneak attack on a flat-footed target, but how would you get more sneak attacks in after that? It isn't possible to flank with a ranged weapon, at least not that I'm aware of, and I'm not sure of a good method to rehide in combat in order to pop off more sneak attacks. What are the best feat choices for a rogue at low levels? And it seems that in order for a rogue to be used to the best of its abilities, it needs to be multi-classed. My question in regards to that is: how does multi-classing tie into the role-playing aspect of the game? Multiclassing in relation to role play .... if a Rogue Character decides to take a level of Fighter.... it might simple demonstrate some Martial training he has recieved, or has focused his attention on Weapons and Combat as a character changes classes .... it is not like it was back in AD&D ist edition, or 2nd edition .... favored class is the only major thing that impacts multiclassing. as in real life, a person might go to school for one vocation ... later take a job doing something else, and finally settle down with an entirely different type of work than he had training in .. although it may be related in some way to the other jobs.  the same can be true in D&D ... if you want to approach life from a different direction, fine... the only other things that may be affected are alignment issues
#12 streamofthesky Jun 03, 2010 14:34:27	If using ranged weapons at lower levels is the best way to go, what's the best way take advantage of your ranged attacks and sneak attacks? I realize you can perform a sneak attack on a flat-footed target, but how would you get more sneak attacks in after that? It isn't possible to flank with a ranged weapon, at least not that I'm aware of, and I'm not sure of a good method to rehide in combat in order to pop off more sneak attacks. In core, it's tough to be an archer rogue.  Definitely hiding again is an option to look into, and you want to sneak around dangerous areas at al times to try for a surprise round.  Improved Initative as your first feat is a big help, too: until an enemy gets his first turn in a combat, he's flatfooted.  So you could end up getting the surprise round AND first turn of combat with a foe flatfooted.  If fighting multiple foes, on the first round of combat always always always target an enemy that has yet to act in favor of one that has acted. Beyond hiding...the best bet is a wizard or sorcerer ally, or a bard even, laying down some grease.  Enemies that are balancing without 5 ranks in the skill lose dex to AC.  After a few levels, when you can afford wands of grease (I'd advise with at least caster level 3, since it only lasts round/level and takes a standard to use in the first place) and the Use Magic Device (the Rogue's best skill) modifer to reliably use it (DC 20), you can set it up for yourself.  It definitely helps if you have an ally to keep an enemy stuck in that spot, of course. Grappling is also a great universal way of getting an enemy to lose dex to AC.  Unfortunately, firing into a grapple is VERY unsafe for your ally.  Get the Seeking enhancement on your bow as soon as possible to make this tactic viable, and at much higher levels when you have the BAB for it, consider Improved Precise Shot. What are the best feat choices for a rogue at low levels? And it seems that in order for a rogue to be used to the best of its abilities, it needs to be multi-classed. My question in regards to that is: how does multi-classing tie into the role-playing aspect of the game? Good feats for an archer Rogue (PHB only): Improved Initative Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Rapid Shot Improved Precise Shot Good feats for a melee Rogue (PHB only): Improved Initiative Two Weapon Fighting Improved TWF Greater TWF Combat Expertise Rapid Reload (if using a crossbow; shortbow can work ok) For ranged, Shot on the Run isn't worth the cost. For melee, Combat Reflexes would be good if you had non-core feat options ot actually reliably get more AoOs and make them all sneak attacks.  In core only, not very worth it.  Improved Feint could be ok, but to me the whole point of being a melee rogue is to TWF for massive sneak attack damage.  If you could feint as a free action, it might be good for a Spring Attack skirmishing build.  But as it is, you're still staying in melee each round and thus eating an enemy's full attack.  Bad trade, IMO.  If Blindfight let you ignore partial concealment, it'd be the best feat for melee rogues EVAR (ANY concealment completely ruins sneak attack, which is total bs, but RAW).  As it is, it just lets you roll twice for miss chance and sneak attack would still be lost, so it's much less useful.  If you're facing miss chance, you're hosed anyway.  This is actually another reason Seeking enhancement is essential to a ranged Rogue... Multiclassing can be used to fit the flavor you want for your character if what you'd like him to be isn't well represented by any one single class.  It can also be used for optimization.  Or both, if you're lucky.  It's up to you how you want to use multiclassing.  I happen to think a 1-2 level dip in Barbarian is phenomenally useful to a core Rogue.  But if nothing about your character fits with the Barbarian's class features, then you'd have to decide what's more important to you.  Fidelity to your character concept, or power.  Just an example, with the assumption that Barbarian would be a definite power boost of a multiclass.  These things are also highly subjective.
#13 carnivore Jun 03, 2010 14:42:47	one thing that affects all attacks(Ranged or Melee) is Base Attack Bonus ..... Rogues dont advance that well(3/4 BAB)... so you will want to be far enough away that even if you miss them, they cant hit you back.  thats way Ranged attacks are great for low level characters ..... but remember to make a Sneak Attack at range , you need to be within 30'... a distance that many enemies can quickly close to melee so you need to make sure you Hit them .... the best way is by using Splash Weapons ... look here: www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resourc... Ranged Touch Attacks are very easy for Low level characters to make consistently .... and can be combined with Sneak Attacks to boost the Damage Alchemical items can be purchased by any character, or even made by some ..... get a bunch this also plays to a Rogues Strength ... reliance on Dex... Elves can be made into very nice Rogues... but in addition to the Con penalty, they dont usually have Rogue as a Favored Class, and you will probably will want to multiclass a bit... so it will make a difference most any race can be optimized and made into a very strong Rogue.... but some are more challenging than others. Personally , i like Elves, and make many builds with them ..... some Builds REQUIRE them (Arcane Archers, Champion of Corelleon, Eternal Blades, etc....)
#14 carnivore Jun 03, 2010 14:47:04	as a side note to StreamOfTheSkys post .... you can Combine Ranged with Melee if you choose the right Weapons.... and Two Weapon Fighting can be used with Thrown Weapons ... so by planing and choosing weapons that can be used in Melee and Ranged, and are Light/one Handed .... you can make the most of your Feats. this is a challenge with many Rogue Builds..... not enough feats to do what you want .... thats why many Dip into Fighter or Ranger for Bonus Feats
#15 carnivore Jun 03, 2010 14:59:33	another point about Rogues: Work to thier Strengths ..... Skills.... Sneak Attack should not be the primary Goal of your Character, neither should Combat in general, but optimizing your Skills. Non-magical Skills are where the Rogue excells.... some skills can be game breaking if used well: Diplomacy ..... there is no opposed roll or Save vs a Diplomacy check on NPCs Use Magic Device ..... anything anyone else can do with Magic, a Rogue can also with a high enough check Trained Only Skills ..... the Rogue has access to many of these, and enough skill points to make good use of them
#16 phaedrusxy Jun 03, 2010 16:32:59	As Carnivore says, acid flasks thrown by a rogue can be very nasty, and only cost 10 gold, which is even affordable at 1st level.
#17 naltaca Jun 03, 2010 18:47:43	I happen to think a 1-2 level dip in Barbarian is phenomenally useful to a core Rogue. What is it that makes the integration of barbarian into rogue so good?
#18 streamofthesky Jun 04, 2010 1:31:23	Weapon proficiencies, nice boost to a weak save (fortitude), the full BAB and d12 HD make you a little tougher in combat more so than any other dip could, Fast Movement is great for mobility (tumbling around into a flank can eat up your allowed movement for a turn in a hurry), if you go to level 2 you get earlier acces to (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, if the game's not going past mid levels that can be handy...  And once per day, you can unleash a rage and still do decent in melee against something immune to sneak attacks.  I don't know, it just always seemed like a nice dip to me.  Shores up several Rogue weaknesses at least partly.
#19 streamofthesky Jun 04, 2010 1:35:35	As Carnivore says, acid flasks thrown by a rogue can be very nasty, and only cost 10 gold, which is even affordable at 1st level. Also a good idea.  At later levels, you'll want to replace the flasks with a wand of acid splash, which at 375 gp for 50 charges is cheaper and longer ranged.  A wand of Ray of Frost is also handy against Fire subtype enemies (including several types of dragons) to make your sneak attacks do +50% damage, since they're vulnerable ot cold damage.  Unfortunately, Ray of Frost allows SR (acid splash doesn't), and yours will be from a wand at CL 1, so against some enemies it will be worthless.
#20 carnivore Jun 04, 2010 13:32:09	here is an Example Rogue build ....it is a relatively versatile Character, that can fit in with many parties, and be very useful in many ways ..... : Core only ECL 6 Human Rogue 6 Attributes (32pt buy) 10 Str(base 10) 15 Dex(base 14 +1 lvl) 14 Con(base 14) 14 Int(base 14) 14 Wis(base 14) 14 Cha(base 14) BAB +4 Saves: +4 F/ +7 R/ +2W AC 17 (base 10 +5 Armor +2 Dex) Class Abilities: Evasion Uncanny Dodge 3d6 Sneak Attack Trapfinding +2 Trap sense   Feats: Point Blank Shot(human bonus) 1st lvl: TWF 3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse  6th lvl: Quickdraw Skills: 99 points Class Skills: (68 points Spent) 5 ranks Balance 5 ranks Bluff  1 rank Craft(Alchemy) 1 rank Craft(Bowmaking) 1 rank Craft(Armorsmithing) 1 rank Craft(Weaponsmithing) 1 rank Decipher Script  9 ranks Diplomacy 5 ranks Disable Device    5 ranks Hide  1 rank Knowledge (local)  5 ranks Open Lock  1 rank Profession(Herbalist) 1 rank Profession(Smithy) 5 ranks Search 5 ranks Sense Motive 5 ranks Sleight of Hand 5 ranks Spot  5 ranks Tumble  8 ranks Use Magic Device Cross Class Skills: (22 points spent) 1 rank Handle Animal 1 rank Heal 1 rank Knowledge(Arcana) 5 ranks Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) 1 rank Knowledge(Religion) 1 rank Knowledge(The Planes) 1 rank Spellcraft Equipment: (13000gp budget) 2100gp +1 Mithral Chain Shirt(+5 Armor, +6 max Dex) 3002gp Adamantine Dagger 10gp 5x Daggers 320gp Masterwork Rapier 330gp Masterwork Shortbow 2gp Arrows(20) 2000gp Handy Haversack 2500gp Eyes of the Eagle(+6 Spot) 1800gp Hat of Disguise(Disguse Self at will) 150gp Wand Color Spray(10 charges) 150gp Wand Cure Light Wounds(10 Charges) 150gp Light Warhorse 20gp Military Saddle 50gp 2x Guard Dogs 50gp .5x Acid Flasks 60gp..x Alchemists Fire 50gp...2x Holy Water 204gp Misc Adventuring Gear Show -Backpack (empty) 2 gp -3xSaddlebags 12gp -Bedroll 1 sp -Block and tackle 5 gp -10xCase, map or scroll 10 gp - Fishhook 1 sp -10xFlask (empty) 3sp -Flint and steel 1 gp -Grappling hook 1 gp -Hammer 5 sp -5xInk (1 oz. vial) 40 gp (colors: Blackx2, Red, Blue, yellow) -5xInkpen 5 sp — -Lantern, bullseye 12 gp -2xMirror, small steel 20 gp -Mug/Tankard, clay 2 cp -5xOil (1-pint flask) 5sp -10xPaper (sheet) 4gp -10xParchment (sheet) 2 gp -5xPiton 5sp -5xPouch, belt (empty) 5 gp -10xRations, trail (per day) 5gp -Rope, silk (100ft.) 20gp -10xSack (empty) 1gp -Sealing wax 1 gp 1 lb. -Sewing needle 5 sp -Signal whistle 8 sp -Signet ring 5 gp -Soap (per lb.) 5 sp -Spade or shovel 2 gp -Tent 10 gp -10xVial ink or potion 10 gp -3xWaterskin 3 gp -Cold weather outfit 8 gp -Explorer’s outfit 10 gp -Scholar’s outfit 5 gp -Traveler’s outfit 1 gp 203gp 7 silver 2 copper
#21 carnivore Jun 04, 2010 13:46:00	for me.... i would do something a little Different than the above Build, similar but more combat options and better Saves and HP ..... like this: Human Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Fighter 2 Attributes (32pt buy) 10 Str(base 10) 15 Dex(base 14 +1 lvl) 14 Con(base 14) 14 Int(base 14) 14 Wis(base 14) 14 Cha(base 14) BAB +5 Saves: +8 F/ +8 R/ +2W AC 17 (base 10 +5 Armor +2 Dex) Class Abilities: Evasion 1d6 Sneak Attack Trapfinding Favored Enemy: Magical Beast or Monstrous Humanoid Wild Empathy   Feats: Point Blank Shot(human bonus) Track(Ranger bonus) TWF(Ranger bonus) Weapon Finnesse(Fighter bonus) Weapon Focus(Rapier)(Fighter bonus) 1st lvl: Rapid Shot  3rd lvl: Precise Shot   6th lvl: Quickdraw Skills: 83 points Class Skills: (70 points Spent) 5 ranks Balance 5 ranks Bluff  1 rank Craft(Alchemy) 1 rank Craft(Bowmaking) 1 rank Craft(Armorsmithing) 1 rank Craft(Weaponsmithing) 1 rank Decipher Script  9 ranks Diplomacy 5 ranks Disable Device 1 rank Handle Animal 1 rank Heal   5 ranks Hide  1 rank Knowledge (local)  5 ranks Open Lock  1 rank Profession(Herbalist) 1 rank Profession(Smithy) 5 ranks Search 5 ranks Sense Motive 5 ranks Sleight of Hand 5 ranks Spot  5 ranks Tumble  9 ranks Use Magic Device Cross Class Skills: (12 points spent) 5 ranks Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty) 1 rank Spellcraft Equipment: identical to above
#22 naltaca Jun 04, 2010 14:21:17	I'm curious as to a lot of the choices that you made on the first sample rogue build, but I think of a lot of that comes from my previous adventure experiences with past DM's. In general, they didn't incorporate very many skill challenges, if any at all. More likely than not, if I get a group going, I'm going to have to be the DM so any enlightenment you could provide me would be much appreciated. So I'm confused as to why there's no Move Silently skill, as well as why most of the skills are unmaxed. I would think Hide would be pretty important, but I'm most likely mistaken. Also, why all the profession and craft skills? Spellcraft I'm assuming is used to identify spells that the rogue hears, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also guessing that this is a starting 6th level rogue as opposed to leveling up to level 6 so the feat choices of point blank shot and TWF at 1st is because it doesn't matter if you're starting at level 6 or possibly for use with throwing flasks in each hand. Heal is not a trained only skill, I believe, so why the 1 rank in it as a CC skill? Also, I'm not sure I understand the attribute concept of a 32pt buy. I realize this isn't the thread for it, but any tips you could provide about incorporation of skill challenges as a DM would be greatly appreciated. The knowledge skills I'm sure are similarly related for the DM providing knowledge in various climates or scenarios. I'm also not sure I understand the full potential of Quick Draw. It is my understanding that you can draw your weapon with your move action as long as you have a BAB of at least +1. I've always adored the concept of starting out small and insignificant and then leveling up to become a formidable hero, so if you don't mind, could you give me a sample build of how you would make a level 1 character? Thank you for all the input, it's really been helping my understanding and utilization of the rogue.