Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jughead5187 May 06, 2011 17:45:03	Greetings all. I need some help. Ive been playing 4e for the past year and havent touched 3.5 in 2-3 years... I am going to get plopped into the middle of an ongoing campaign. Will start level ten. I am mot sure of the party size but there will be more than five people, even without me. All roles should already be covered. Ive done a little reading on warlocks and all the guides i have found are mostly set to pump out damage, or somehow work in melee. I wish to be a jack-of-all-trades sort of character, and feel a 'lock should fit well. How should i go about attempting to optimize for buffing/debuffing and survivability. Damage is nice, but we should already have that covered. The dm said he would gift me an item to have a couple back-up heals, so i need no help there. Any help would be appreciated!
#2 Tempest_Stormwind May 06, 2011 18:03:47	Warlocks are a bit trickier to work with than you'd think - they tend to hit their peak around level 5, and past that need to specialize in one of their tricks to keep pace with the game. They're still FUN, but they take a tiny bit of finesse to excel. The damage monger (typically using Hellfire Warlock and a method of counteracting its drawback) or the melee demon (the "Glaivelock" using the Eldritch Glaive invocation and standard attack-of-opportunity reach-fighter options) are good examples of this, but not the only ones. Due to this need to specialize, and their limited invocation list, warlocks are not the best jack-of-all-trades types. They always have magic available, but most of that either works for ranged damage (Eldritch Blast) or tends to last all day (what use is knowing four buff spells if all of them last 24 hours?). They tend to have unique effects, but they tend to have drawbacks preventing them from excelling (for instance, by the level you get the ability to bestow negative levels with your blast, most significant foes have spell resistance, so you're forced to use Vitriolic Blast, preventing you from using the negative levels. Similarly, Dark Discorporation sounds wonderful, but it forces you to give up your invocations while using it!). If you've got all the roles covered, here are the typical "fifth wheel" classes that can serve as reasonable jacks-of-all-trades. -Bard. Goes without saying, really. There's some surprisingly good options here to make an unconventional bard, such as Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and the War Chanter if your party is mostly warriors, or the Sublime Chord if your party is mostly spellcasters. -Druid. Druids can do everything and anything, probably better than all but the best specialists, just by taking Natural Spell and knowing their list of wild shapes. I don't like this, but it's an option. -Marshal (Miniatures Handbook). The class itself utterly sucks, but dipping it will give you auras, which let you make a large team that much better, plus a handful of other goodies. Synergizes greatly with Bard or other Charisma-happy classes, and is an integral part to any good Diplomacy build. (I did try my hand at creating a Tome of Battle version of the marshal which is actually worth playing, and it got rave reviews, but appears to have been eaten by the internets. I should see about reposting it...) -Artificer (Eberron). Capable of temporarily bestowing any weapon or armor ability you could imagine to your team with a minute's preparation (or faster with an action point). Capable of infusing a huge range of spells into any item you need with a minute's notice, and discharging them later on. Capable of crafing magic items at a huge discount. Uniquely, able to apply metamagic to magic items in ways that can be downright ridiculous. Artificers can do everything, and excel at it, but even if you don't feel like putting in that much effort they're quite welcome in a team.  -Binder (Tome of Magic). This class is very similar, thematically, to the warlock, in that it makes pacts with other beings to earn its power. Unlike the warlock, it forges new pacts every day (or faster with a feat), and depending on which pact or combination of pacts it makes, it gets different abilities, almost all of which are at-will or on a 5-round cooldown. Google the Consolidated Binder Handbook and get a sense of what this class can do; chances are if you'e looking for a non-specialist warlock, this will fit your needs perfectly. -Factotum (Dungeonscape).  This class is the jack-of-all-trades personified. Think of it like a base-class chameleon, able to mimic any class role you need, and quite well, for a few rounds. A factotum with high Intelligence and multiple Font of Inspiration feats can keep it up nearly forever, too - switching freely between spellcasting, fighting, skill use, healing, buffing, trapsmithing, tanking, and diplomacy pretty much at will.  -Several of the Tome of Battle classes, particularly those with access to White Raven are always welcome, especially in warrior-related parties. With White Raven Tactics, they even work well with mages! Think of them as warrior-generals, thematically between the marshal and the bard, whose orders can enhance and enable the team to work together as a perfect unit. There's even feats to synergize with some of the other classes here, most notably Song of the White Raven. (Plus, see above regarding my variant marshal, which is entirely based around White Raven and auras.) I hope that helps.
#3 jughead5187 May 06, 2011 18:36:17	Well, unfortunately i know that bard and factotum are already taken and i do not duplicate anothers class. But i was reading a little about 'locks and i like that they eventually get some AWESOME utility/survival powers. Spider climb, teleport,and flight are all amazing and have multiple out of combat uses. I know the dm, and a few of the group...a lot of what we do will be non-combat encounters. Plus i like the flavor of the warlock. Actually, i was planning on a non-evil warlock. I prefer ranged. I like somewhat charismatic classes. Eventually i was planning to take a prestige or multiclass to pick up cantrips. Mage hand is an amazing tool for general laughs!
#4 Tempest_Stormwind May 06, 2011 19:02:43	Then do Binder. It's the closest to Warlock, and I guarantee you'll be impressed with its powers. Note that the warlock isn't actually Charisma-dependent. It's amazingly designed in that regard - a warlock can work with just about any ability scores, ever. The Binder is the same way, although it has a slightly higher Charisma dependence than the Warlock. Don't multiclass for cantrips. It costs all of 1000gp to buy an item that can use one at will (500 if you can craft magic items). I make a point of getting a prestidigitation item on nearly every character for just this reason - it's astonishingly useful but not to the point of being worth it to multiclass to get.
#5 jughead5187 May 06, 2011 21:52:02	Hmm...one of my buddies started showing me a bit about dragon shaman. They look pretty durable, and sort of JOAT-ish as well. How do they hold up? Better than 'lock?
#6 jughead5187 May 06, 2011 21:52:05	Hmm...one of my buddies started showing me a bit about dragon shaman. They look pretty durable, and sort of JOAT-ish as well. How do they hold up? Better than 'lock?
#7 Tempest_Stormwind May 06, 2011 22:52:40	Hmm...one of my buddies started showing me a bit about dragon shaman. They look pretty durable, and sort of JOAT-ish as well. How do they hold up? Better than 'lock? Worse, by and large, but they do different things. They're closer to an always-active bard than anything else, but more limited. Seriously. In this scenario, you do want the binder. Have you looked into the Tome of Magic?
#8 jughead5187 May 07, 2011 0:24:21	unfortunately the computer i am using isnt mine, and i do not wish to download it without my roommates permission... bbut from what ive read, they do have a TON of options...i just cant make heads-or-tails of the handbooks ive found. again, i really want a ranged class. looking into the dragon shaman, i realized that they are melee primarily. i ALWAYS play melee and i want to switch it up. can binders be good at range? warlocks seem REALLY durable...which is attractive to me. the dm i will be playing with isnt "out to kill the pc's" but its made clear that the possibility of death is very real. how durable or mobile are binders? up-to-par with 'locks? damage-wise, locks look a bit underpowered. the builds i looked into mostly dipped into binder for a level, then went hellfire warlock. apparently that REALLY upgrades the damage.  at that point, how comparitive is the binder with the warlock? i like the idea that the warlock has quite a few tricks up his sleeve. detect magic at will cannot be understated. also, flight, teleportation, and wall-crawling all seem like quite a bit of fun. also, i read somewhere about black tenticles at will... does the binder have any shenannigans that are *potentially* as fun? we will have a bunch of damage, i would like to eb able to hold my own, but i feel that either buffing allies or debuffing enemies is probably a better idea for such a large group. (not everyone will show for every session, but i believe there will be a total of 8 pc's. i would like to do something that i will have fun with, and something that wont overshadow or be overshadowed by someone else.) how well does the binder buff/debuff? also, i know we will already have a party face, so i do not really need to optimize him for that role.  and finally, i was beginning to work on my backstory. the lock i had in mind was going to be CN, and the dealing with demons was a family thing that he was kind of forced into. i do not know much about binder (obviously) but what kind of pacts do they make? i hear its a daily pact...im not sure how to roleplay that into a valid PC.  thanks for all the help and patience by the way!
#9 jughead5187 May 07, 2011 2:22:28	this just in...my dm isnt allowing dragon magazine or tome of magic... so binders are out :'(
#10 Krusk May 07, 2011 5:34:09	this just in...my dm isnt allowing dragon magazine or tome of magic... Ask for a list of anything else banned, along with any other house rules, and then let us know. Its no use going much further unless we know what we can work with.
#11 turok124 May 07, 2011 11:15:23	if Dragon Magic is allowed.....;)
#12 New-Shadow May 07, 2011 16:43:12	The easiest way to play this would be to play an Eldritch Theurge.  Start off as a General Wizard, take enough levels in Warlock to fufill prereq.'s (or the other way around), and Prestige.  Gives you the fun of being a Warlock, and the vesatility of a wizard (it boosts the casting of both classes, as well as the Eldritch Blast).  Throw in a level of Dragonslayer from Draconomicon and 3 levels of Abjurant Champion to be a far less squishy warlock (say what you will about the prereq. feats for each class, but having a d10 HD, immunity to fear, and all the other things that come with each class are very worth it).  Take Arcane Disciple (Kord(competition)) from the Complete Divine book to get the three best divine boost spells in the game for even more fun.
#13 j2.504 May 07, 2011 17:52:57	To add to Krusk's list... I am pretty keen on Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster types for a variety of builds (including Jack of all Trades).  It would meet most of your requirements, but give greater flexibility.  The reason I like this combination, is you can use it as a base for a variety of builds, and using different combinations of feats/prc's/classes/races & templates, etc. to fine tune your character toward a specific (or general) flavor. For example, I used this as a base for a magical "survivor" and travel type who used a bow.  Sort of a Macguiver.  The intent was for him to be able to get into and out of any situation.  I then used the prc's, feats, etc. to give him more and more ways to survive or travel.  I've also used this for more typical uses such as a Beguiler/face type, a more mundane Rogue type, a Treasure hunter, etc. The trick is often using the "magical" side of the character to fine tune the flavor of the character, rather than having him be a generalist high powered caster.  If you look at it this way from the start, then you don't get stuck in the "my character casts spells, so must be able to compete with a straight caster" problem.  Rather, your goal is a magically enhanced .  So, through spell selection, you could "limit" the character to just movement type and some battlefield control spells.  Or utility spells.  Or illusions. Or divination.  Or a combination of the above. You can do a variety of things with your prc/class/race/ACF selections.  A dip of Barbarian or Cleric for example can enhance the flavor quite a bit (especially Cleric Domains), without hurting your build.  Abjurant Champion is generally helpful.  Air (from UA), Dark template or Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis (ToM), Dragonborn, etc.  Raptoran is worth considering.  Whisper gnome.  Pixie.  Devotion and Reserve feats may be helpful.  Jaunter, Horizon Walker, prc's, etc.  Abrupt Jaunt Wizard is nice, but Domain Wizard (UA) is especially nice for flavoring this character to your specific needs.  Spontaneous domain feat/acf for Cleric is also good for flavoring.  The feats that give a Wizard access to domains/domain granted powers can also be good for flavor. In your case, (if you were to use this type of build), you might want to look at Dragonborn if you want a ranged breath weapon (along with associated feats like the entagling one), and possibly some reserve feats to give the "at will" flavor.  Or, you can focus on ray/orb type spells (maybe some Spellwarp Sniper), or a bow for ranged attacking (Greater Manyshot feat is great when combined with your Sneak Attack abilities, and grease/greater invisibility and other spells can help you qualify for Sneak Attack more often). This character also really shines in roleplaying/non combat scenarios.
#14 darth_versity May 07, 2011 18:05:22	Eldritch Theurge is a great idea, but dont take 3 levels of wizard, just take 1 with precocious apprentice (complete arcane pg 181). That allows you to become an eldritch theurge at lvl 5. If you prefer the Warlock way of doing things though focus on that rather than wizard advancement. Try this for a build 1. Wizard/Sorcerer 1, precocious apprentice 2. Warlock 1 3. Warlock 2, Ability Focus - Eldritch Blast 4. Warlock 3 5. Eldritch Theurge 1 6. Eldritch Theurge 2, Fey Heritage 7. Eldritch Theurge 3 8. Eldritch Theurge 4 9. Mindbender 1, Mindsight (Lords of Madness pg 126) 10. Eldritch Theurge 5 11. Eldritch Theurge 6 12. Eldritch Theurge 7, Fey Power 13. Eldritch Theurge 8 14. Eldritch Theurge 9 15. Eldritch Theurge 10, Fey Skin 16. Hellfire Warlock 1 17. Hellfire Warlock 2 18. Hellfire Warlock 3, Quicken Spell Like Ability - Eldritch Blast 19. Warlock 4 20. Warlock 5 That ends up with DR 8/Cold Iron, Warlock casting 19 and Wizard/Sorcerer 11 (CL 15). Mindsight makes you practicaly immune to being ambushed and has a huge amount of utility. The invocations are open for you to decide yourself but I recommend you take fell flight and not spiderwalk as you were suggesting (why climb a wall when you can fly over it?). Just remember you must be able to use either Charm Person or the Charm invocation to get into Mindbender. Of course thats only a sample build and the feats are interchangable depending on what you prefer. A more aggressive character would trade the Fey Heritage feats for things like Improved Critical. The choice of Wizard or Sorcerer is really a question of taste. My personal preference is Sorcerer, but thats because I think a wizard should focus on being god or batman while sorcerers and warlocks just blow **** up.
#15 death_isthe_begining May 08, 2011 15:25:48	How should i go about attempting to optimize for buffing/debuffing and survivability. Damage is nice, but we should already have that covered. The dm said he would gift me an item to have a couple back-up heals, so i need no help there. Any help would be appreciated! How do you feel about the The Dead Walk invocation? If you are willing to focus your feats on making better zombies and skeletons then that frees up most of your other invocations. The feats you would need to buff your undead are in Libris Mortis (the Corpse Crafter feats) you can even take the feats before you can use The Dead Walk so you can get Tomb-Tainted Soul, Corpse Crafter, and Destruction Retribution. But if you are going to be good you can drop Tomb-Tainted Soul for Deadly Chill. Also look into Bloodhulks (lots of hp) and Necrosis Carnex (out of combat healing for your undead and you if you get Tomb-Tainted Soul) both are from MM4. As for invocations well I'm going to focus on the debuffs with some control too. Least invocations: Baleful Utterance Miasmic Cloud Entropic Warding Lesser invocations: The Dead Walk Curse of Despair (especially if DM lets you make a unique effect) Fell Flight or Walk Unseen Greater Invocations: Vitriolic Blast any two of the following Chilling Tentacles Wall of Perilous Flame Caustic Mire Nightmares Made Real Painful Slumber of Ages Dark Invocations: Dark Foresight Retributive Invisibilty Utterdark Blast For most of these invocations you will need a good charisma for the save DC's.