Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lschuster May 23, 2009 0:56:11	Hey folks, Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm working on a Scout build in my latest game. To clarify, I have never played a character past level 14. We always get a DM who wants to run a game from 1-20 and then fizzles out. Finally, we've gotten a good group together and I really believe that it'll actually happen this time. The DM allows all 3.5 WotC material, but materials to specific campaigns like Eberron are up to his discretion but likely not to fly. The campaign is mostly city based. DM also said that the Goliath Great Hammer is a racial weapon for Goliaths. Honestly, I can't even remember if RoS says that, but I guess it doesn't matter. I'm wielding a Large Goliath Great Hammer for 3d6. I've decided to play a Goliath (RoS) Scout (CAd) after my last character, a Goliath battle cleric, lasted for about 5 sessions before the previous DM fizzled. I really liked the race and the character I was building, so I decided to put a spin on it. The party consists of: A rogue, who isn't all that in to optimizing her character and is pretty much a newbie to the game, but likes the social interaction, the roleplaying, and is slowly catching on. A duskblade who will probably go 1-20 in duskblade. I can't say I blame him, but I don't know much about the class options. An NPC cleric who is basically a heal stick. The DM created her for our small group to have a cleric, but she is completely noncombatant. She focuses on divine metamagic reach (I think that's what it's called) to heal us from up to 30 ft away if needed. A sorcerer. He just joined the group last session so I don't know a ton about his character yet, but I've played with him before and he is a very smart player. No doubt he is cooking up some fun prestige classes, but he likes to be secretive. Currently, we are all 4th level but the cleric, who is 5th. My DM has allowed the level adjustment buyoff from UA, so I'm just a 4th level scout with no level adjustment. I liked the idea of a character who could move around the battlefield and do a ton of damage, but I'm trying to take it a step further and create a character who could use the elevation changes of a city and it's buildings to his full advantage with both attacking and being stealthy. Hence the Leap of the Heavens feat and the (future) leap attack feat. Stats: STR 22 DEX 16 CON 17 INT 11 WIS 11 CHA 9 DM allowed the use of flaws in exchange for feats (up to 2) at 1st level. Feats so far are: Power Attack Expeditious Dodge (RotW) Leap of the Heavens (PHB2) Weapon Focus - Greathammer Mobility (Bonus feat at Scout 4) Flaws I picked are: Shaky: -2 on ranged melee attacks Murky Eyed: Roll concealment miss chance twice Also traits (UA?) we were able to choose two. I chose: Quick: +10 movement rate, -1 hp/lvl Detached: +1 will save, -1 reflex save Skill Tricks (CS) so far: Twisted Charge Extreme Leap I have my character mapped out to 10th level, but am unsure where to go from there. I plan on... Scout 8/Barbarian 2 I'll be using the alternate Barbarian rules from CW to exchange the 1st level +10 movement rate for the pounce ability and rage, and barbarian 2 will give me improved uncanny dodge as the scout already has uncanny dodge, plus a fort save boost and a +1 BAB. Future feats: 6th Improved Skirmish (CS) 8th (Scout Bonus Feat) Spring Attack 9th Leap Attack (DM ruled it's a 3:1 exchange for 2 handed weapons, but still good) When I first started planning the character, I really liked the Thief-Acrobat prestige class (CAd) as it fit the flavor of jumping around cities and hiding when needed. I also contemplated taking a single level of Shadow Dancer (DMG) for the hide in shadows ability, but I'm not sure if I can fit it in and still maintain a reasonable BAB. I've considered adding a level of Ranger and taking the Swift Hunter feat (CS) to pick up a favored enemy progression. DM ruled that the group can multiclass without penalty. I have also looked at Bounding Assault from PHB2 and will probably fit that in somewhere. Bottom line, I plan to alternate charging and doing a lot of damage with spring attacking all the while taking advantage of the terrain to minimize the enemy attack opportunities, and I think I have a decent (still open to critique) plan to do that up to level 10, I'm just not sure where to go after that. Thoughts? Thanks in advance, and I do apologize for the long post. Thanks for reading.
#2 Wyvernhand May 23, 2009 1:52:04	I've considered adding a level of Ranger and taking the Swift Hunter feat (CS) to pick up a favored enemy progression. DM ruled that the group can multiclass without penalty. This. Do this. Actually, do this a lot. More than you are already. Scout4 is plenty. 2 levels of Barb are fine. After that, all Ranger all the way to 20. This stacks up all of your class features nicely, keeps your BAB full, and gives you some nice Ranger spells. If you can, check out the Spell Compendium for more details on awesome Ranger Spells. Opening round of combat? Drop a Hunter's Eye before you charge/pounce to get a couple of dice worth of sneak attack on all your hits. ETC... Oh, and look up the Improved Skirmish feat. More dice - more happiness. You'll probably move far enough most of the time anyway. This is a good thing. Other than that, everything looks ok. Not the most optimized, but you'll have fun with it. EDIT: PS, welcome to the forums! If you have any other questions, just ask!
#3 nickresonance May 23, 2009 2:46:52	Maybe also take a look at the whirling frenzy variant ability from UA. You lose the Con boost, but you gain +2 dodge to AC and Reflex saves, and you flurry like a monk (but with no weapon restrictions, I think). You also lose indomitable will, but that wouldn't apply to your build anyway.
#4 hijaxx May 23, 2009 15:53:32	scout 4/barb 2/ranger 10/shadowdancer 1/thief-acrobat 3 all the class features that a level 4 scout normally has, counting as a level 14 scout for purposes of them all the class features that a level 10 ranger normally has, counting as a level 14 ranger for purposes of them hide in plain sight, provided you stand in shadow use the lion totem and whirling frenzy barbarian variants. definitely not as powerful as scout 4/ranger 16, but suits the mobility theme better.
#5 lschuster May 23, 2009 23:19:33	Thanks for the ideas thus far. I will definitely use the whirling frenzy variant, good catch. So far, everyone seems to advocate taking more than 1 level of ranger. The only reservation I have about that is the combat style bonus feats aren't at all good for me. Leap attacking with a 2 handed weapon is what I'll be doing the most. For some reason, I hate to take any class that offers features that don't add much, even if the rest of the class makes sense. Is it worth it though? I'm not sure. Also, Thief Acrobat requires evasion, so if I want to go this route, I have to go to at least scout 5. Any ideas for feat progression? That's my biggest worry after 10th. I always seem to regret my feat choices at one point or another.
#6 dr_rocktopus May 23, 2009 23:43:35	Maybe use the Wildshape ranger? even a little bit of wildshape goes a long long way.
#7 Balthanon May 24, 2009 0:53:17	Leap of the Heavens is pointless for Goliaths, they have the primary ability it grants as a racial feature. (Mountain Movement.) +5 to jump, which is all that's left, really isn't worth a feat given how easy it is to pump up that skill. I would replace that with Fleet of Foot if you can get it approved (it's Player's Guide to Faerun), since that adds another 10 foot to your movement speed. Also, for a ranger/scout mix like your character, two-weapon fighting actually isn't bad since you'll have pounce and a bunch of skirmish. I'll second Improved Skirmish as a feat. For Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Bounding Assault-- is there a particular reason you're planning on this line? Given that you're picking up Pounce, you are almost always going to be better off charging and taking the full attack rather than the two or three this gives you. Also, since you're playing a melee character I have to ask... are you interested in using Tome of Battle or are you avoiding it? Even a little can add some nice versatility to a warrior.
#8 shinefeather May 24, 2009 0:55:32	Have you tried thinking of adding Thief Acrobat? She is a very good addition if you are going to be all over high buildings.
#9 muertog May 24, 2009 1:54:39	If you are not interested in the Combat styles from the Ranger (not that I blame you), you might be interested in the Alt.Class feature from UA: Shape-changing (UA, p 58): Gain wildshape as druid (small and medium animals only) and fast movement as barbarian. Lose combat styles. In addition, I might suggest you -don't- take murky eyed. Miss/Concealment chance becomes a problem in higher levels, especially when you don't have a method of True Seeing for your character. Feeble might be a little better considering your inherent bonuses. -2 to a bunch of physical skills might be less of a pain for you. Otherwise, Meager Fortitude would be made up for by your higher-than-normal Con score as well as Fort should be your best save.
#10 fronkadelic428 May 24, 2009 2:02:38	If you are not interested in the Combat styles from the Ranger (not that I blame you), you might be interested in the Alt.Class feature from UA: Shape-changing (UA, p 58): Gain wildshape as druid (small and medium animals only) and fast movement as barbarian. Lose combat styles. If your DM is intimidated by the amount of abuse Wild Shape can get, there's also PHB2 Shapeshifting to consider. Either way, you can scout as the stray dog in the alley and blend in with a crowd, or else simply sprout wings when the mood strikes you. Also each +10 movement you get is another +4 on all your Jump checks. As for feat ideas: Improved Sunder - You meet the prereqs and it can be helpful when you want to take someone alive. Just deprive them of their equipment. Roofwalker and Roof-Jumper (Cityscape 63+62) - These seem like they might be up your alley as well. Steadfast Concentration (PHB2 83) - Add your Con mod to your Will Save instead of Wis. Requires Endurance, but guess which class gets that for free at level 3. Destructive Rage (CW 98) - If you're into massive property damage, +8 to Kool-Aid through the wall while raging. Extra Rage (CW 99) - Two more rages a day. Not really feats, but the Cityscape web enhancement has some good alternate class features for all the "naturey" classes like Scout, Ranger, and Barbarian. Worth a look.
#11 nickresonance May 24, 2009 2:10:54	If you can find it, Dragon 326 offers alternative ranger combat styles. The Strongarm style gives Power Attack, Improved Sunder and Great Cleave. Power Attack for free, at least, might be nice for you.
#12 lschuster May 24, 2009 22:02:37	Maybe use the Wildshape ranger? even a little bit of wildshape goes a long long way. Good look. I read that a while ago but didn't recall it. Of course I should have, there's a substitution for nearly every class ability somewhere, it seems obvious that there would be variants on the fighting style. Thanks. I'll second Improved Skirmish as a feat. For Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Bounding Assault-- is there a particular reason you're planning on this line? Given that you're picking up Pounce, you are almost always going to be better off charging and taking the full attack rather than the two or three this gives you. Also, since you're playing a melee character I have to ask... are you interested in using Tome of Battle or are you avoiding it? Even a little can add some nice versatility to a warrior. Yeah Improved Skirmish is on my list as soon as I can get it. I'm planning on spring attack because it would be hard to charge every round, and I don't want to waste a round just moving out to charge. I figured it would be a good combo to alternate charge destroying, then spring attacking out back to charge distance. I'm not sure whether or not I'll end up with Bounding Assault. Have you tried thinking of adding Thief Acrobat? She is a very good addition if you are going to be all over high buildings. Absolutely! I mentioned it above. I'll probably fit it in somewhere around 12th. If you are not interested in the Combat styles from the Ranger (not that I blame you), you might be interested in the Alt.Class feature from UA: Shape-changing (UA, p 58): Gain wildshape as druid (small and medium animals only) and fast movement as barbarian. Lose combat styles. In addition, I might suggest you -don't- take murky eyed. Miss/Concealment chance becomes a problem in higher levels, especially when you don't have a method of True Seeing for your character. Feeble might be a little better considering your inherent bonuses. -2 to a bunch of physical skills might be less of a pain for you. Otherwise, Meager Fortitude would be made up for by your higher-than-normal Con score as well as Fort should be your best save. Yes the shape changing from UA is good stuff, and that would increase the movement more which is always good. As far as murky eyed, unfortunately it's already done. This character has been played once a week for a few months now, and I can't go back and take a different flaw. Like I said, I've never played a character past level 14 cause the DM always fizzles out. If your DM is intimidated by the amount of abuse Wild Shape can get, there's also PHB2 Shapeshifting to consider. Either way, you can scout as the stray dog in the alley and blend in with a crowd, or else simply sprout wings when the mood strikes you. Also each +10 movement you get is another +4 on all your Jump checks. As for feat ideas: Improved Sunder - You meet the prereqs and it can be helpful when you want to take someone alive. Just deprive them of their equipment. Roofwalker and Roof-Jumper (Cityscape 63+62) - These seem like they might be up your alley as well. Steadfast Concentration (PHB2 83) - Add your Con mod to your Will Save instead of Wis. Requires Endurance, but guess which class gets that for free at level 3. Destructive Rage (CW 98) - If you're into massive property damage, +8 to Kool-Aid through the wall while raging. Extra Rage (CW 99) - Two more rages a day. Not really feats, but the Cityscape web enhancement has some good alternate class features for all the "naturey" classes like Scout, Ranger, and Barbarian. Worth a look. Good suggestions. I'll definitely keep these in mind. If you can find it, Dragon 326 offers alternative ranger combat styles. The Strongarm style gives Power Attack, Improved Sunder and Great Cleave. Power Attack for free, at least, might be nice for you. I absolutely can find it. A friend has had a subscription for over 10 years. Unfortunately my DM isn't big on using dragon and dungeon magazine for rules and such. I'll check it out and ask him though. Thanks for all the suggestions guys!
#13 Balthanon May 25, 2009 8:01:26	Yeah Improved Skirmish is on my list as soon as I can get it. I'm planning on spring attack because it would be hard to charge every round, and I don't want to waste a round just moving out to charge. I figured it would be a good combo to alternate charge destroying, then spring attacking out back to charge distance. I'm not sure whether or not I'll end up with Bounding Assault. If you add some Tome of Battle, strikes can give you a good alternative for the Spring Attack chain when you can't charge. They give you decent options on a single standard action-- and for that matter, at higher levels, they can effectively give you spring attack. You can also pick up stances that will negate difficult terrain (Step of the Wind), which can make charging much easier.
#14 lschuster Jul 12, 2009 22:23:03	Update on my current thoughts. We're currently fifth level. It generally takes us four sessions to move up a level. This is a very long term campaign, so keep in mind that I need to be reasonably effective at all levels. I'm currently scout 4/barb 1 with whirling frenzy and lion totem variants. Regardless of how I end up, I'll be taking the wildshape ranger variant. Feats - DM also let us use the PHBII retraining rules so I got rid of Leap of the Heavens and replaced it with Improved Unarmed Strike, to make a prereq for Improved Grapple at next level. This campaign is very heavy on small bad guys so far, and grappling just wrecks their day. Plus grappling is a lot of fun, and since I can retrain the feats later, I'm not too worried about it. At this point feats are: Power Attack Expeditious Dodge Weapon Focus Greathammer Improved Unarmed Strike Mobility (bonus scout 4) Feats I'd like to pick up: Improved Skirmish Swift Hunter Leap Attack Spring Attack Extra Rage Shock Trooper (will retrain improved unarmed strike to get improved bull rush as prereq) Here's the options that I've developed so far... Scout 4/barb 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 1 (replace sneak attack with bonus feats as fighter)/Uncanny Trickster 3 (2nd level gain features of rogue, 3rd level gain features of scout)/Ranger +10 (11) This one takes the longest to get the ranger levels but gets me my feats quickly which is nice. Ranger spells are good, but only a couple per day isn't game breaking. Lots of skill tricks and skill points is attractive too. Scout 4/barb 1/Ranger 15 Quickest for spells and wildshaping, but I don't get most of my key feats until late in the campaign. Scout 4/barb 1/scout +4(8)/Ranger 11 Picks me up an extra bonus feat at the cost of 1 BAB and slower access to ranger abilities. Scout 4/barb 1/scout +1(5)/Ranger 1/ Scout +1(6)/Uncanny Trickster 3 (scout, scout)/Ranger +9(10) I think this is the weakest, but not really sure. Any comments?
#15 flawless_p Jul 13, 2009 14:42:18	Once you have charged in with Pounce you can get multiple full attacks using two 5-ft. Steps to move a total of 10ft. without inuring attacks of opportunity. Boots of Sidestepping an extra 5ft. step 3/day for 6000gp Take your 1 for the round then activate the boots to take another then you get Full Attack with Skirmish. Looks cool Mobility wise too almost like your running circles around the person while beating them down.