Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 abwinningh42 Oct 06, 2011 14:44:12	Hey, gang. Looking at putting a charging barb together for an upcoming campaign. We're starting off at ECL 1, but I'm planning ahead. Thanks in advance for all the help! (: Basics Orc Barbarian 1 Ability  Score  Modifier Str          18         +4 Dex        16          +3 Con        17          +3 Int          11         ---- Wis         13         +1 Cha          7          -2 Class Features Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem, CC/ -Fast Movement) Whirling Frenzy (UA) 1/day Class skills Skill points: 16 Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate**, Jump, Listen, Survival, Swim, Tumble (Cityscape/ -Ride) Equipment Orc Hammer (Homebrew/equivalent: greataxe) Spear Sickle Studded Leather Some Notes: My DM has allowed me to substitute Cha Mod for Str Mod on Intimidate ** Due to his backstory, my DM has forgone the Light Sensitivity. Why not be an orc if you can get away with not having on of it's big mechanical drawbacks?:D The Orc Hammer is simply a 2h Blud weapon that is mechanically identical to the Greataxe in the phb. I'm kinda torn on what feat I should choose? I'm teetering between PA & ExtraRage; Is there something obviously better that I'm looking over?
#2 Maat_Mons Oct 06, 2011 17:53:08	If you ever want to play an orc without that houserule, sundark goggles (Races of the Dragon) negate light sensitivity for 10 gp. They're basically sunglasses. I'd take extra rage. At 1st level, you may be killing things in one hit just from base weapon damage and strength anyway. Waiting until 3rd level for power attack isn't a big deal. If your DM allows it, water orc (UA p18) gives you an extra +2 con in exchange for -2 to saves against fire effects. Wild (Dragon 306 p65) is a +0 LA template that gives +2 str, -2 int, -2 cha. Arctic (Dragon 306 p61) is a +0 LA template that gives +2 con, -2 cha.
#3 aelryinth Oct 06, 2011 23:30:38	Extra Rage will probably be more useful. If you want a charge based build, you need to look at the classic Ubercharger format. You've already done part 1 by getting Pounce. Now, you want Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Power Attack, and Leap Attack. Best way to get those is 4 fighter levels, so you may want to pick up Weapon Focus/Spec, too. Top out at level 6 fighter, and then either go Barbarian for the rest; continue on with Fighter levels as a Dungeon Crasher or a Lockdown specialist; or prestige out. Really, tho, once you can leap attack, pounce, and power attack with no penalty to hit, you're going to be one shotting a lot of opponents. Frenzied Berserker makes this really sick, but there's play-with-other problems with that PrC. ==Aelryinth
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 07, 2011 8:20:25	Top out at level 6 fighter, and then either go Barbarian for the rest; continue on with Fighter levels as a Dungeon Crasher or a Lockdown specialist; or prestige out. This particular decision deserves your immediate attention.  If you're aiming for a prestige class, you want to start picking the skills and feats that serve as its prerequisites.
#5 abwinningh42 Oct 07, 2011 15:59:18	If you ever want to play an orc without that houserule, sundark goggles (Races of the Dragon) negate light sensitivity for 10 gp. They're basically sunglasses. Those are awesome! Thank you. I'd take extra rage. At 1st level, you may be killing things in one hit just from base weapon damage and strength anyway. Waiting until 3rd level for power attack isn't a big deal. Extra Rage will probably be more useful. I was thinking along those same lines. (: If your DM allows it, water orc (UA p18) gives you an extra +2 con in exchange for -2 to saves against fire effects. Wild (Dragon 306 p65) is a +0 LA template that gives +2 str, -2 int, -2 cha. Arctic (Dragon 306 p61) is a +0 LA template that gives +2 con, -2 cha. Unfortunately, my DM says no to Water Orcs and both templates. If you want a charge based build, you need to look at the classic Ubercharger format. You've already done part 1 by getting Pounce.Now, you want Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Power Attack, and Leap Attack. Best way to get those is 4 fighter levels, so you may want to pick up Weapon Focus/Spec, too. Any link to said format? I was looking at some of those feats. Isthere any reason to take Imp. Bull Rush other than Shock Trooper? This particular decision deserves your immediate attention.  If you're aiming for a prestige class, you want to start picking the skills and feats that serve as its prerequisites. Chances are, I won't PrC out. I'll most likely stick to Ftr/Barb. Thanks, guys (:
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 07, 2011 17:27:09	Any link to said format? I was looking at some of those feats. Isthere any reason to take Imp. Bull Rush other than Shock Trooper? That is the format, really - The basic idea is to take Power Attack and anything that multiplies it, which usually only kicks on a charge. Example multipliers include using a two-handed weapon, the Leap Attack feat, and Valorous weapons. Since so many of the multipliers kick in on a charge, adding Pounce to the mix is amazing (effectively adding a universally-stacking multiplier in the form of extra attacks), and Shock Trooper can make sure those attacks hit. There are enough charge resources here that a quick Google can get you all you ever needed to know, but realistically these are the kernel elements to it, and you pretty much can't go wrong with them as long as you know where to aim and how to time your charges. (Picking up the Dimension Hop psionic power or a high-level Shadow Hand teleport can be amazing, though - swift-action movement is always a good sign, and you can use it to make sure you're always in a position to charge and never in a vulnerable spot afterwards.) Improved Bull Rush is the prerequisite to Shock Trooper. It's also surprisingly useful at lower levels, since it does not require an attack roll (it automatically "hits" when you enter their square), and with IBR you not only remove the AoO for approaching, but get a fat +4 on a Strength check (i.e. your raw strength vs theirs, as if you had an incredible +8 Strength boost!). Yes, the strong 1st level barroom bouncer can easily shove the 20th-level Mialee out the door using this trick. (It ceases to be relevant later on unless there's lava, pitfalls, and similar around, unless you take steps to make it awesome. Dungeon Crasher Figher is the usual way to do this, but if you take this route it will cost you two feats and require six fighter levels. Large races or those with Powerful Build usually find Knockback to be another good investment for bullrushing, since it turns all of your Power Attacks into bull rushes on their own and gives you a scaling bonus on the strength check (which they already make at +4 for being Large).) If you want an example of all of them working together, here's a sample build I put together a while ago. I don't like the power selections I made with it but the basic premise is fine - it combines AoO tanking (tactical defense and lockdown, although this is more of a side-benefit than a dedicated specialty) with ubercharging (damage output) and position control (read: tying up enemy actions and drawing enemy attention to himself) in a way where each element improves the other two, and the build remains powerful at every level.  (Side note: It was an attempt to resurrect a team-play build my buddy RadicalTaoist and I worked on a few years back, using newer material. Since that was long before the Tome of Battle came out, the build does NOT use Tome material until the very high levels, where I really didn't have a reason not to. See below for more on that book.) Chances are, I won't PrC out. I'll most likely stick to Ftr/Barb. Thanks, guys (: You're welcome. Btw, I would also strongly consider looking into the Tome of Battle. If you have Extra Rage, you can rage three times a day, which is more than enough for most of your career so long as you know when to hold it in reserve. (If you can fit it in twice, or reach Barbarian 4, you'll be able to rage every encounter without a problem); more Barbarian levels will not be as useful to you at this point as they would be otherwise be. Likewise, unless you're doing Dungeon Crasher, Fighter generally loses its oomph after just two levels if you're aiming for damage output. (Fighter really shines in plugging together advanced feat chains to make use of fancy tactical maneuvers, but that's the other aspect of D&D melee, not damage.) The advantage to using the Tome isn't that it boosts your damage, per se (in fact, I showed a while back that a pure Barbarian out-damages a warblade spamming his best maneuvers at just about every level except, I think, 3, 5, and somewhere around 15), it's that it gives you options and mobility. The warblade (a class which is thematically similar to the "fighter" or "samurai" in fluff, but structurally is closest to the barbarian) has some amazing synergy with pouncers. Not only is it an uncanny dodge class, it grants access to Tiger Claw maneuvers (many of which synergize with high Jump scores, feral attacks, and massive spike damage) and Diamond Mind maneuvers (which provide incredible defenses on your saving throws and phenominal, almost instinctive speed and reaction time). You even pick up Iron Heart along the way, which is basically designed to be the brawler fighter (its maneuvers are based around dealing and recieving punishment, and many mimic typical fighter feats like Whirlwind Attack). The great way they multiclass means that even as a base class, they feel more like a prestige class if you wait several levels to join the fun. (And don't worry about the Intelligence synergy - it's icing, not a necessary part of the class at all.) I think a Tiger Claw focused warblade (although perhaps not exclusively focused on Tiger Claw) would be a natural extension of this once you get the basic ubercharging out of the way (which you can speed up by taking a few Fighter levels). Once you have an even number of class levels and you think you like how you look mechanically, consider taking levels in warblade. The possibilities are pretty broad, and the more dynamic play is often its own reward. Here's the rundown on that discipline, by the way. See if you'd agree with my assessment: Show The Tiger Claw school is characterized by its 'feral' character. In mechanical terms this translates into a focus on damaging strikes and boosts, often centred around large numbers of attacks or the use of the jump skill. If you invest in increasing your jump skill then its worth making a heavy investment in this discipline, otherwise it is more likely something to be dipped into selectively. Jump Check Optimization: Base speed increases: probably the best 3.5 option would be a Xeph (XPH) with Extra Xeph Burst (Complete Psionic). This also gives you access to psionic feats and classes which have potential use (notably War Mind and Deep Impact). Run: only worth mentioning because it’s a Warblade feat. Leap of the Heavens (PHB2): No penalty for standing jumps and a competence bonus on running jumps. Leaping Dragon Stance (TC 3): +10 foot enhancement bonus on Jump checks and all jumps are running jumps. The fact that this increases the distance you jump is very unusual, but taking the book at its word means that if you are in this stance and make any kind of vertical jump then you will jump high enough to trigger Battle Jump against a medium opponent, and it lowers the DC against larger opponents substantially (becomes a DC 20 Jump check for a large opponent, DC 40 for Huge, etc). But unless you are taking Battle Jump this is a poor stance (compared to other 3rd level stances anyway). So, take Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) for pounce and the Battle Jump feat, and then use Sudden Leap whilst in this stance and you can full attack, dealing double damage, as a swift action in addition to your usual full-attack routine. Boots of Striding and Springing (DMG): competence bonus to jump checks in addition to the +4 for the speed increase – very nice. Ring of Jumping (DMG): competence bonus on jump checks. At low levels I’d prefer the boots, and at high levels there are better things for a ring slot. Blade Dancer (Oriental Adventures): large bonuses on Jump checks (not just the +30 competence, the enormous base speed increase as well), but at the expense of 3 feats and the los of Initiator Levels. For a Battle Jump build the bonuses could be worth it but otherwise maintaining your IL is probably the better choice. Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer): hard to actually combine with maneuvers (Pouncing Charge is the best choice), but if you’re optimizing Jump checks anyway you may as well pick this up as well. Battle Jump (Unapproachable East): Potentially awesome. This feat means that anytime you drop from at least 5 feet above your opponent it triggers a charge dealing double damage. So, with a good enough jump check you can leap up as part of a Tiger Claw maneuver, go above the opponent and trigger Battle Jump. After that it becomes a matter of adding as much charge synergy to your build as possible - pounce (Lion Totem Barbarian 1 is teh ideal dip), Shock Trooper (Heedless Charge), Leap Attack and the like (and if you charged in the previous round then Combat Brute (Momentum Swing) will also be triggered by this). Note that in order to be able to do this you need to be able to hit a jump DC of 40 (reliably!) in order to jump to 10 feet in height and thereby trigger Battle Jump against a medium opponent, whilst a DC 60 jump check is required against a large opponent. The Leap of the Heavens feat to allow you to accomplish this from standing jumps, a high base speed and as many jump check boosting items as you can afford will be required - this is an all or nothing trick. Choice Maneuvers: Blood in the Water (Stance 1): The bonuses from this are uncapped, so this stance is best if you intend to stay in it for an extended period of time, making it a good choice for a dipper. Dual wielding kukris is the common approach, perhaps with some Bloodclaw Master, and Improved Critical/Keen weapons as soon as you are abe. Hunter's Sense (Stance 1): Handy as an out of combat stance to help avoid being surprised, and in a pinch can help against invisible foes. Particularly good for a Swordsage / Ranger where the tracking abilities and Wisdom synergy really kick in. Sudden Leap (Boost 1): The main use here is as a pseudo-pounce, allowing you to move and full-attack in the same round. Combined with Battle Jump you can end up with an extra full-attack as a swift action. Wolverine Stance (Stance 3): While it won't be first on your wish list this is a good stance to have in reserve - there are a lot of monsters with enormous grapple modifiers, so having something up your sleeve for dealing with them is never a bad idea. Dancing/Raging Mongoose (Boost 5/8): Extra attacks can be put to good use by almost any character. The maxim that bonus damage requires extra attacks requires in reverse here - extra attacks mean you should look for bonus damage. Pouncing Charge (Strike 5): For a charge-focused build I'd suggest a dip into Lion Totem Barbarian instead, but for a build that just wants a quick charge option added to the mix this is a good choice. Rabid Bear Strike (Strike 6): A potent standard action strike that provides a good damage boost for its level, albeit with an AC penalty. Swooping Dragon Strike (Strike 7): A good damage boost and a stunning effect. The stun DC is dependent on your jump check, and the maneuver requires that you jump over your opponent, so if you optimize that jump check and pick up Battle Jump this is a devastating maneuver. Of course, if you can't jump your way out of a paper bag this is a complete waste of time. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Boost 8): A good damage boost, best used if you have a large number of attacks. Using it during the warm-up round for Stormguard Warrior is one option since your touch attacks should almost all hit, but even more potent is to use it with Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind 9) on a Two-Weapon Fighting build. Tactical Feat: Reaping Talons Tempest's note: This doesn't list one serious drawback with Tiger Claw: unlike the other disciplines, it has very few 0-prerequisite maneuvers, meaning that if you decide to study it, there are only a few ways to get in. If you're level 4 or higher before taking your first Warblade level, though, you have access to Rabid Wolf Strike or Claw at the Moon, both of which deal respectable damage for their level and can get you into the stronger maneuvers without any trouble. You can't use them on a charge, but in situations where you can't charge, it really helps to have a backup.
#7 abwinningh42 Oct 07, 2011 18:26:37	I've never looked at ToB very closely. That amazes me, though. It's a lot to take in. Any chance I could get a level 10 or so build of what you guys think would be optimal? I'll post more later, just reading a butt ton.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 07, 2011 19:37:09	I've never looked at ToB very closely. That amazes me, though. It's a lot to take in. Any chance I could get a level 10 or so build of what you guys think would be optimal? I'll post more later, just reading a butt ton.  Here's a quick idea. It may not be optimal but it's a thought. Orc (presumably). Your ability loadout, but consider swapping Wisdom and Intelligence. (Optional; honestly despite the Int-based abilities, the warblade is fine with low Intelligence.) Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Warblade 4  1-Barbarian. [Rage / Whirling Frenzy, Pounce] [Extra Rage] 2-Barbarian [Uncanny Dodge] 3-Fighter [Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush] 4-Fighter [Headlong Rush*] 5-Fighter 6-Fighter [Leap Attack, Shock Trooper] 7-Warblade [Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude] [Rabid Wolf Strike, Wall of Blades, Sudden Leap] [Leading the Charge] 8-Warblade [Improved Uncanny Dodge] [Iron Heart Surge] 9-Warblade [Battle Ardor] [Martial Study (White Raven Tactics)**] [Battle Leader's Charge] 10-Warblade  [Absolute Steel***] [SWAP****] Notes: Show [* ] You haven't said if you're in Faerun; if you are and have access to Races of Faerun this should certainly be your choice. If you don't have this book, it should be the Dungeon Crasher alternative class feature in Dungeonscape. If that isn't available, go with Combat Reflexes. [**] I explain my choice of this maneuver below, and suggest alternatives if you don't like it. If you don't want the maneuver, take Adaptive Style instead.  [***] Absolute Steel is the optimal choice at this level; see below for details. If you don't want to take this route, the best alternate stance is probably Hunter's Sense. Blood in the Water is amazing, but you don't have the right weapon choice to make ideal use of it. [****] If you like your current maneuver loadout, keep it. If you find you don't like one of your maneuvers all that much, drop it for Fountain of Blood, Death from Above, Lightning Recovery, or anything listed under Martial Study (above). You're going to need a few more Tiger Claw maneuvers soon to learn the better higher-level ones, so the swap is more for that purpose. Note that you CAN swap out the maneuver you learned through Martial Study.
#9 Krusk Oct 08, 2011 8:41:14	I shy away from TOB for [various reasons that aren't relavent right now] but here is a pretty solid charger build. One question, how open to multiclassing are you? Melee guys get the most out of it, and really ought to do it pretty often. (I IIRC'ed the prereqs on feats. Away from books at the moment.) Lion Totem Barb 1/Dungeon Crashing Fighter 6/Ranger 3 (Go into Horizon Walker). Feats  1- Extra rage F1- Power Attack F2- Improved Bull Rush 3- Leap Attack f4- Shock Trooper 6- Intimidating Rage (Why not actually use that str to intimidate you got) f6- Choice (probably insert some TOB via feats, maybe something intimidate based?) 9- Choice (probably insert some TOB via feats)  - Other Notes. Any ranger variants you can pick up are not bad. You are in it for the skills, mostly. Horizon walker will help a ton with mobility, and setting up charges from good angles, and dealing with difficult terrain. The only planar mastery that is "Mandatory" is shifting. The rest are suited to the campaign. If you are large sized, or have powerful build, take knockback. General tactic- Charge someone, hit for all attacks. On the last attack, make it a bull rush to throw them back.         This build isn't super optimal, but it will definatley shine. One big benefit is that it only uses 2 variants (unless you find some ranger ones you like) lion totem and dungeon crasher which really ups the DM approval rate. It also only needs 3 books to be built outside of the PHB/DMG. One thing you will note that Tempest and I both did for our "barbarian" builds was not use many levels of barbarian. Some people say the class is as many as 3 or 4 levels long, but personally I top it out at 1 thanks to extra rage. Point being, don't take too many levels. (It isn't "bad" but there isn't really anything stand out)
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 08, 2011 15:16:10	I shy away from TOB for [various reasons that aren't relavent right now] but here is a pretty solid charger build. Indeed, that works quite nicely and has the benefit of simplicity. (My suggestion requires Core, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Tome of Battle, and either Races of Faerun or Dungeonscape, so the same number of books, but it feels more complex when presented as a build. ToB classes tend to build rather complex but play rather simply, I find.) The feat you're looking for at 6 or 9 is almost certainly Imperious Command, which changes your Intimidate skill to cause targets to cower for 1 round before being shaken for a second round. Cowering costs them actions, and shaken allows you to demoralize again (stacking fear effects is very deadly). Combine with Fearsome armor (demoralize as a move action; works best with a ToB strike and/or Fountain of Blood, but not essential) and the Never Outnumbered skill trick (demoralize all nearby foes, combines very nicely with Intimidating Rage) and you'll be a force of fear on the battlefield.  I also feel Horizon Walker gets a bad rap; it's a very good class especially in a core-only environment, and underrated in noncore environments because it isn't flashy. I would argue, though, there is one better choice for your terrain mastery, since you aren't going to qualify for Shifting until later in the game - take Desert. It renders you immune to Fatigue - meaning you aren't fatigued after a rage. If you already have Intimidating Rage, it's only a small step from here to Frenzied Berserker (CW), which is fun and powerful if and only if you take steps to make it team-friendly. However, it is thematically appropriate, and while I normally suggest forgoing Frenzy altogether (the real strength here is Supreme Power Attack, which amps up Leap Attack something fierce), but here it'd give you an extra attack that stacks with Whirling Frenzy and Extra Rage would also supply more frenzies. Incidentally, I hadn't noticed you shying away from ToB in the past (it just hasn't come up). I'm curious what those reasons are (not looking to argue or anything, just genuinely curious); feel free to PM me if you want. (Normally I don't reply to PMs, but I'll make an exception here.) One thing you will note that Tempest and I both did for our "barbarian" builds was not use many levels of barbarian. Some people say the class is as many as 3 or 4 levels long, but personally I top it out at 1 thanks to extra rage. Point being, don't take too many levels. (It isn't "bad" but there isn't really anything stand out) Reiterating this. Barbarian 20 is a fine, but not outstanding, choice. You'll be able to keep up just fine, and your damage output will be top notch, but you'll basically be doing the same thing all the time. I personally would find the monotony boring, even if I'm rolling massive damage, but as Tsuyoshikentsu said in the Tao of Optimization: 2. A Barbarian must Be satisfied. He seems boring to others, But he has his great secret. That is, He can keep up with ToB classes In raw damage. Though he is Often a dip class, "I attack again" has its merits!  If you're fine just saying "I attack again", then there's nothing wrong with more Barbarian. However, it just works so well as a scaffold to greater things in other classes - especially once Complete Cheeseball gave them Pounce at level 1. (Seriously, they're a better dip class now than 3e paladin was, and that was so strong they split its class features in half for 3.5!)
#11 Krusk Oct 09, 2011 9:31:41	Those intimidation feats are great, I just didn't want to force the OP to adopt another schtick. That is a very good route to go though. I hadn't considered desert, but you are right. Now being fatigued is pretty handy. I thought about sending you (op) to berserker, but the class usually ends up destroying the campaign if you are a newer player. (Newer in the sense of less experienced with optimization, not playtime). It is basically the "Barbairan +" class though. Also, Race suggestion. Water Orc. Its from unearthed arcana, and its basically a better orc. Also, you can swing it as a pirate orc or something. Not that out there. www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/element...