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| #1AlagosMar 25, 2014 1:12:25 | Hello. I'm currently in the beginnings of a Forgotten Realms campaign with a friend, and my father as the DM. I started out an elf monk focused on grappling, but soon learned to my dismay that the vanilla 3.0/3.5 monk...well, it sucks. Badly. So I did some digging and found the Unarmed Swordsage variant. Here's my shot at it.
Sources: Any WotC 3.0/3.5e official material, except Psionics. DM isn't fond of them.
Party members include a Sorcerer (friend's PC), Cleric NPC, and Fighter/Cleric NPC. Subject to change as we go on.
Feat Walkthrough: 6 - Unsure 18 - Unsure Am I trying to focus on too many things at once? Should I keep my options open, or specialize further into something? Am I going to be having too difficult a time hitting things?
As a sidenote, would 20% concealment essentially mean a +4 to AC and Hide checks? (d20*0.2=4) Or would the DM roll a d10, with 1 and 2 being the miss chance, regardless of the attack roll or Spot check?
There are also several houserules that my DM implemented regarding the Swordsage's mechanics, which is why Adaptive Style is notably absent from my build. He's worried that I might be too strong for our campaign, and has had some issues with super-optimized, loop-hole exploiting builds in the past. I can post them for anyone interested. It impacts gameplay to a fair degree. Well, that about wraps it up. Please, if you have any suggestions, all the feats, maneuvers and stances are subject to change. I have at least a few days until I'd have to make the first Swordsage level final.
Thank you very much for taking the time to read this far. |
| #2Tempest_StormwindMar 25, 2014 8:37:39 |
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| #3StevenOMar 25, 2014 9:04:55 | You should only have one complaint about your stats: THEY ARE TOO HIGH! STR 14, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 8 is FAR more reasonable for that cahracter as the stats you are looking at are unbelievable as a single, legally rolled set. Admittedly ePB 47 isn't as godly as some people post but it's nearly twice the expected.
It's too bad those two monk levels are "set in stone" but at least you're acknowledging the XP penalty that comes when multiclassing base classes. I'll remind you that PrCs do get to ignore adding to that although there may not be any that fit the character. |
| #4Tempest_StormwindMar 25, 2014 9:35:52 |
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| #5KingofswingMar 25, 2014 17:09:41 | Do not listen to them about your stats SteveO thinks you should be a weakling all the time and having any more then one stat higher then 15 is a crime he plays by the rule if I have to boost enemies from the book then your stats are to high. If the DM is ok with them then that is fine.
Temp has a very cry very good point on the grappling char and that feedome of movement almost makes you useless I say almost because of a couple of reasons 1 if you can get an attack off that dose enough damage a caster can not make there concentration check to cast the spell they fail. 2 even if they have a item that gives them freedom of movement sure you can not pin them but you can grapple them do the damage then they are free. Kinda like a greased pig you can grab it and hurt it if you wanted to but it would be very hard to hold on to it. 3 I remeber something out there that might help but you have to be a gyth you can grapple an opponent by grabbing the psycic cord of a person or something like that I know if you cut that well they are dead but you need a silver gyth sword for that. 4 I would lose my flurry of blows and go with decisive strike it cause double damage and well that is a ton if you do the work into the build.
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| #6StevenOMar 25, 2014 17:44:11 | Who's ever said anything about having one stat hiagher that 15 being a crime? I may not like the idea but an array of 18,14,12,10,8,8 or 18,14,10,10,10,8 and even 16,16,14,10,8,8 IS fine by me and both clearly have a stat over 15. It's when you have THREE stats over 15 (pre-racial mods) that you're committing a crime especially when everything else is still double digit. If you have to boost opponents to keep them at the same challenge level they are supposed to be then you're throwing out the work that others did in trying to balance the system, making more work for the DM, and COMPLETELY negating the reason you have god stats in the first place.
Builds should never rely on stats so complaining about high stats in the "wrong place" is just terrible. You can find a good build that uses "normal" arrays and once you have those adding god stats just magnifies their power. |
| #7Tempest_StormwindMar 25, 2014 17:53:58 |
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| #8KingofswingMar 25, 2014 18:44:17 | I'm just saying if his DM is happy with it then there us no reason to complain sorry but Steve complains more about high stats then anyone in history. I know what the ratings are abd I know that it can be done not saying it can not just saying stop pointing out something that you have no control over. He is not going to change his stats and lets just say it neither would anyone else if you had those stats so just stop on the stats crap if the ppl and the DM are ok with it then leave it alone. For the love of god. From what I got from his pist we was looking for a little help to make it better not change his stats which would not make it better. |
| #9Andarious-RosethornMar 25, 2014 21:07:19 | Not everyone cares weather or not the game is an actual challange, and sometimes these absurdly high stats mean that your players don't really have to try to optimize and might just live. No need to get offended over people who use god stats, or for those who use them to get offended when the rest of us have a W.T.F. moment over seeing them. We're used to slumming it down in the 25 PB level (maybe 28, and if we're REALLY lucky 32).
I'm playing in a game that the DM went super liberal and gave us 3 LA that don't count towards ECL for XP purposes and 32 PB (I talked him down from 36 PB and 4 LA personally). The game will be a steam roll because it's "out of a box" and we're all fairly well optimized. Oh well, it's up to us to make our own fun in this case I guess. |
| #10AlagosMar 26, 2014 1:51:50 | Sorry for the late response, its been a long day.
First off, thank you all for the timely and detailed critisism. I didn't expect such responses so soon.
I didn't realize the stats would cause such an uproar. My apologies. It was an extremely lucky stat roll, I'll admit. My DM gave us 3 chances to roll all our stats in the standard 4d6, take best 3 method. You get to choose which numbers go to which stats. No rerolling on individual stats, though he'd give us an extra reroll if we got anything under 6 (because having a 5 CHA character would be...interesting to say the least. And by interesting, I mean severe autism kind of interesting). I got this set of numbers on the 2nd roll. So I guess I just got lucky. There's another character I made that might be introduced into the campaign later on that I rolled 3 18's on, and the rest 12-16. It was ridiculous. But just as you're capable of getting bad rolls, you're also capable of getting good ones. Every once in awhile a human (or elf, dwarf, etc.) is born with incredible capabilities. It's very rare, but that's the whole point of the roll. Do remember, a 10 is just your average human being. Literally nothing special about him. Sounds like fun, right? Right?...I'm a big fan of character flaws, but I feel they should be a conscious choice, based on what paths we walk and our character's history. Not on how much milk you did or didn't drink as a child. You're supposed to be a hero, a champion battling demons and dragons and hordes of minions.
As for the whole point buy thing, I enjoy the concept from a strictly numbers point of view. But from a roleplayer's point of view, it seems a bit strange. When an actual person is born, you don't pick and choose how athletic or charming or intelligent someone will become. It just happens. Point buy is essentially gene manipulating someone to a very specific set of attributes, set within a certain limit. Right now I'm also playing a rogue in a Pathfinders campaign with a 20 point buy. High stats may have a bit of an impact, but it doesn't matter if the rolls don't work out. Or if your party members make mistakes. On a particular encounter I had last week, I missed 15 attacks in a row with a +9 to hit. I rolled a 10 or under 15 times in a row, against enemies with 20+ AC (probability of rolling 1-10 15 times in a row is 0.5^15, or about 0.0013%) Having 18 DEX doesn't mean jack sometimes, and no amount of higher secondary stats would've helped me there.
My DM was okay with the high stats, and he's completely aware of what we're capable of. And I'm sure he's got quite a few nasty ideas up his sleeve. So far I've already come to within an inch of getting one-shotted by a power attacking, scythe wielding bugbear. He rolled a 19, and still almost one-shotted me. A natural 20 would've sliced me clean in half. There's also been a stalemate encounter with a goblin king and his hobgoblin guards. My DM specifically said that if we fought him to the death, it wouldn't end well for the winning side. And there's been a very conditional, unstable alliance with a young cold drake (who then by some sheer stroke of luck got coup de grace'd by said goblin king, who now wears its skin as a trophy). There's already been some close calls, and we're still level 2.
As a side note, I know that we've discussed the possibility of the BBEG being a former character of his, at least lvl 20. He's essentially a half-demon Antipaladin who lied about his alignment and purpose to his entire party. Got powerful enough, and when the moment came, unleashed a plan weeks in the making to butcher his entire party while they were sleeping. Needless to say, they were speechless and more than a little upset, but he played it off as roleplaying hehe (they were at least lvl 10 at that point). He then went on to take over the city of Waterdeep (one of the largest cities in Forgotten Realms) and is now its supreme evil overlord. So there's that to look forward to.
But I digress. On to the build. I've edited several things that were mentioned in the posts. No more Scorpion's Grasp and Improved Natural Attack, at least for now. I only took these feat as a potential boost to damage, at least in the lower levels until I got access to the higher damage maneuvers.
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| #11KingofswingMar 26, 2014 4:13:33 | I have come up with a way that grapple will work period it matters not that they have freedom of movement as a spell or as anything else that grants this effect well in theory any ways the wording is this the spell allows you to automatically resist a grapple but if you have the same effect they should cancel each other out and bring it back to a die roll well this is my theory any ways he is trying to resist your grapple you are trying to resist him resisting your grapple. It is a but if a issue if your DM dose not see it as such with the wording but that is why it is a theory. If it is not that way then freedom of movement is well a broken spell and needs fixing period. But I think you could make a case for it. |
| #12CaptnqMar 26, 2014 8:08:04 |
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| #13Andarious-RosethornMar 26, 2014 10:32:07 | Having a few Average stats is not a FLAW it's average. Having a below average stat is usually volunatary (at least which stat). The Elite Array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 represents a far btter than normal individual and still has an average stat and a below average stat. |
| #14KingofswingMar 26, 2014 16:51:08 | Ok ppl are saying this guy has god like stat please look up the gods in the deities and Demi god book. His stat are no where even close and the god have nothing to boost there stat no magic items no tomes no nothing like that and just to give you an idea Hercules has a Str of 55 normal when he rages it is some crazy stat like 70 or something so these stats just show a lucky roll. I have said it before the point base system now that I know can work but it works for ppl who want to play that way. If you are rolling snd happen to roll 6 18's well then those are your stats and your DM can cry about it later. Having a base score of 10 being the average for a hero I say is fine but most say 10 is above average well you are right for a common person 10 is above average but once again there are 2 things you have to remember. 1 the char we play are supost to be above average they are to be heroes. Not farmers not any common working job. 2nd and most important..........THIS IS A FANTASY WORLD AND GAME WE ARE PLAYING so unless you are trying to create your char after yourself or someone you know stop complaining about stats when someone has high stats. There is this guy his name was superman remember him......you think he was a common guy even on Krypton hell no sure on earth he was almost indestructible but he had to be he was fighting very powerful evil bad guys.......well it seem like that is a little like what we do in our game now doesn't it. If you have a 8 7 6 5 4 3 in a stat and you are happy with it then play it but when someone has above average stat from what the book says they should have because they did not use the point system leave it alone, and stop crying about it. Stats are the single biggest thing ppl have a problem with but they do not realize one thing YOU ARE NOT PLAYING THE CHARACTER. So when some one asks for advice and place the stat up do not gravitate to them just say hey he has so e realy good stat must have rolled real good and be happy for the player that got them. Instead of crying that you did not get them in a round about way because you play a point system.
Now on to the monk with those weapon enchantments first off very funny to picture the pinball monk killing everything as he bounces around made me giggle. But any DM who has half a brain would say no. Yes I know in the game it works but the answer would be no but funny none the less. |
| #15Slagger_the_ChuulMar 26, 2014 21:52:19 |
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| #16Andarious-RosethornMar 27, 2014 5:47:49 | Kingofswing I think you're missing the big point, most of us on this forum consider it an earmark of success of proper optimization to not need more than a 14 (or maybe 16) in a stat to make a build actually WORK and be powerful. The majority of us read rules conservatively, play with a point buy or otherwise strictly controlled stat generation system and still make characters that without having to try too hard beat standard party (3-5 players) encounters up to 5 CR higher. Most of us, given stats like the ones many players are presenting these days probably get a bit baffled as to what to bother doing with the majority of the array. We're kinda like "Well your build needs this stat, and it needs Con, everyone needs Con, um.... I guess these stats need to be a 14 or better if they can be... and uh? I dunno your other stats can be what's left."
Believe it or not, higher or lower overall stats mean very little to how good a character is. A wizard that gets 18 Int, and 14 Con, can probably make due with the rest as 8's (22 PB). He would be able to carry more gear without problem, have better AC/aim, a moderately better Will save and less of an abbrasive personality if his other stats were higher but he wouldn't be any more capable of melting someone's brain or turning them to stone.
Even MAD classes like Monk and Paladin can survive on 16 Str, 14 Con and Wis and a 12 in Dex or Cha respectively. Doesn't make them a great class, but play what you want as long as you're not getting frustrated by the lack of ability to get anything done in the game, hopefully your DM balances things for your party.
So seeing these sorts of stats in a way comes off as a warning sign that either the player or the offending DM are very innexperienced with which mechanics make the game really work and or that they're playing a completely different game and just calling it the same thing. |
| #17Tempest_StormwindMar 27, 2014 9:48:34 |
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