Feats
Two Weapon Fighting
Martial -- Steel Wind
Eldritch Claws (Dragon Magazine 355)
Beast Strike (Dragon Magazine 358)
Martial -- Iron Heart Surge
Martial -- Iron Heart Endurance
Martial -- Avalanche of Blades
Stances
Hunter's Sense
Thicket of Blades
Stance of Alacrity
Manuevers
Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mind Over Body, Burning Brand, Foe Hammer, Iron Heart Surge, Law Bearer, Rallying Strike, Iron Heart Endurance, Castigating Strike, Avalanche of Blades, Greater Divine Surge, Diamond Defense, Adamantine Hurricance, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Raging Mongoose
Invocations
Utter Dark Blast
I'm trying to get as many attacks as possible to maximize damage done by the Eldritch Claws. Beast Strike allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed attacks. Manuevers can be done with unarmed attacks to that can add a lot of attacks per round. Burning Brand allows you to change that damage to Fire Damage and extend range.
I'd love to maximize Avalanche of Blades that can allow attack after attack if you can continue to hit with an ever increasing penalty. Since each hit will put on two negative levels with Utter Dark Blast.
I see my weaknesses as trying to increase my abilty to hit with unarmed attacks and improving my armor class. Anyone have any suggestions?
Any ideas on invocations that might be useful with this build?
How do you think the claws would work with that invocation in Complete Mage that lets you detach your hand?
Now that's the kind of out of the box thinking I like. I'd image the claws would work, but that you'd have problems doing an unarmed strike with a detached hand. I'll re-read it later tonight.
Cool Idea!!!
Does this mean yuou basically go punch/punch... ect. and then get secondary natural claw attacks, which... also let you use your unarmed strike damage... if I read Eldritch claws correctly. The reason I ask is because, if that's the case, pickign up rapidstrike, if you can find a way to qualify, may be worth it
Eldritch Claws gives you some pretty darn good damage for your claws.
Rapid Strike -- You must be a dragon (etc) subtype which may cause RAW problems, but it makes sense since Eldritch Claws are natural weapons. Snap Kick would do the same thing, but intuitively claws are not on a knee or foot. But since you could make an argument since they are made of Eldritch they could move. Snap Kick is much easier to qualify, but the reduction on accuracy of all attacks when you are trying to make as many as possible in a round might not be optimal. Hmmm...
Defensive Invocations
Darkness/Devil Sight Combo -- Instinctive Darkness lets you use Darkness as an immediate action. I think there is something else that lets you Hide in Plain Sight if there is Dakrness. People have said this combo doesn't work as well in 3.0 as it did in 3.5. Plus Darkness can create a lot of problems for your teammates. I'm also having a hard time with how much help Walk Unseen would be in combat.
Entropic Warding is pretty darn cool. It gives you 20% concealment against all ranged attacks. Plus I like all the impossible to track stuff.
Melee is a tough place to be for a Warlock. I'm trying to find ways to make it better.
2) Since you are doing unarmed damageX2+eldritch blast damage per unarmed attack you really just want to use normal guantlets. Since you are not a monk they will give you a net benefit and let you add enhancements to your unarmed attacks cheaply. Superior unarmed strike might be worth it as it will boost your damage base.
3) 3.5 darkness is not all that dark so generally darkness is not highly regarded in 3.5 (gives only concealment).
4) Ditch two weapon figting and take snap kick it is better in every way.
5) I you are using beast strike and no two weapon fighting a magic buclker is a good investment. Make it a buckler axe and make the weapon part +5 defending and you will have a shield (assuming +5 base shield) 1+5+5=+11 AC bonus for one shield. If your DM allows multiple defender weapons to stack things can get insane quickly.
6) Using martial discipline weapons and aptitude weapons you can get further accuracy with a +5 enhancement bonus (from weapon/amulet or spell).
7) You do not qualify for Jade phonoix mage as you do not cast second level spells and waarlock does not naturally qualify.
8) You need another 1st level stance as warblade 1 gives you a 1st level stance only, not any level of stance.
9) Avalanche of blades is only worth it if you are making touch attacks or if you have accuracy much higher than I think you will have. If you can get to either of thos it could be worth it. Otherwise get something better.
10) Remember that you can use the mongoose boosts when you are making strikes or standard aciton attacks.
1) snap kick does not actually have to be kick just an unarmed strike, which can be a kick. It is just the name.
Good to know.
2) Since you are doing unarmed damageX2+eldritch blast damage per unarmed attack you really just want to use normal guantlets. Since you are not a monk they will give you a net benefit and let you add enhancements to your unarmed attacks cheaply. Superior unarmed strike might be worth it as it will boost your damage base.
I'm using the Unarmed Variant of Swordsage.
3) 3.5 darkness is not all that dark so generally darkness is not highly regarded in 3.5 (gives only concealment).
Question? Is something better than nothing? If the Darkness trick is the best non-item Defense (broadly defined) that a Warlock can produce with Invocations isn't it a good idea for a melee Warlock?
5) I you are using beast strike and no two weapon fighting a magic buclker is a good investment. Make it a buckler axe and make the weapon part +5 defending and you will have a shield (assuming +5 base shield) 1+5+5=+11 AC bonus for one shield. If your DM allows multiple defender weapons to stack things can get insane quickly.
Cool Idea! I'll ask my DM about multiple defender weapons.
6) Using martial discipline weapons and aptitude weapons you can get further accuracy with a +5 enhancement bonus (from weapon/amulet or spell).
Another good idea, but i don't know what weopon would allow an unarmed strike. Beast Strike will only add the claw damage to my unarmed strike.
7) You do not qualify for Jade phonoix mage as you do not cast second level spells and waarlock does not naturally qualify.
Now this really is a problem. I'm planning on asking my DM to allow it with four levels of Warlock, there is no class in that advances Initiator Level and level four is where a Sorcerer would be able to enter the class. If I take a spellcasting class to enter Jade Phoenix I won't be able to get Dark Invocations and have 8th level martial manuevers by level 20. Warlocks are generally weaker than Sorcerers and Wizards and there really aren't many prestige classes that advance them.
8) You need another 1st level stance as warblade 1 gives you a 1st level stance only, not any level of stance.
Same problem as above, I'm only getting 8th level manuevers at level 20. So I don't otherwise qualify for Stance of Alacrity. It allows for a lot of fun stuff. I can loose it for a 1st level stance if I have to. The build is just so tight trying to fit Dark Invocations and 8th level manuevers.
9) Avalanche of blades is only worth it if you are making touch attacks or if you have accuracy much higher than I think you will have. If you can get to either of thos it could be worth it. Otherwise get something better.
This I know more than anything else and its one of the big reasons for this thread. Eldritch Claws are definately not touch attacks like the Eldritch Glaive is. Avalanche screams cool, but you need some cheese or trick to get your to hit good enough to make it worth it.
I'm wondering if the Stormguard Warrior Tactics Feat might be workable into the build? I'm not sure I completely understand how to make that trick work.
10) Remember that you can use the mongoose boosts when you are making strikes or standard aciton attacks.
I know that it would work with Monk's Flurry of Blows. Is there a good Standard Action attack that would build up multiple hits in one turn that would work better?
If I can't get my DM to let me use Jade Phoenix Mage then I'll won't even be able to qualify for Avalanche and I'll be looking at much lower manuevers. Is there another prestige class I should look at?
Thank you thank you to everyone for all their responses.
1) snap kick does not actually have to be kick just an unarmed strike, which can be a kick. It is just the name.
Kicks, after all, cannot be unarmed strikes... though they can be natural weapons.
1) snap kick does not actually have to be kick just an unarmed strike, which can be a kick. It is just the name.
Kicks, after all, cannot be unarmed strikes... though they can be natural weapons.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT THAT AGAIN! Seriously I am trying to forget that thread.
You could use brass knuckles from PF or use an amulet of natural attacks. When I first suggested I did not know unarmed swordsage so I thought guantlets were an option since those are unarmed attacks that can be enhanced. I do not know if your improved damage will work through the guantlets but the biggest problem with monks and guantlets (flurry and prof) are not a problem for you.
Darkness is better than nothing you just want to make sure you can not do better especially since you can get concealment 24/7 with bracers of armor enchanted with the greater blurr property from the MIC (at least I think that is what it is called) which would not trouble your allies.
So, yeah, I'm trying to think of as unique of ways as we have access to to improve survivability and to be able to hit targets.
I'm having to stretch two Dragon Magazine feats to really make a melee warlock worth while to play.
Snap kick is only better then TWF if you only want one attack. There ain't no improved Snap kick, after all...and it's a UA strike, so unless you're UA and improving dmg, the damage is going to suck. It's not like you can add that claw dmg to the attack...you're not using the claw limb.
Avalanche of Blades is highly dependent upon AoO to set up a blizzard kill routine. However, the more attacks you have, the better and better Avalanche of Blades is, because the bonuses are multiplied across attacks (same logic as Sneak Attacks). Thus, AoB is great for a TWF multi-attack build, but you've got to get 2-4 Touch attacks in before a full attack action to really see the effect...and then you just own.
==Aelryinth
There are no kick attacks, is the proper terminology. There's only unarmed strikes, which you can flavor as a kick, and natural weapons, which is probably a hoof or claw strike. Even Snap Kick doesn't say it's attacks are kicks.
Snap kick is only better then TWF if you only want one attack. There ain't no improved Snap kick, after all...and it's a UA strike, so unless you're UA and improving dmg, the damage is going to suck. It's not like you can add that claw dmg to the attack...you're not using the claw limb.
Avalanche of Blades is highly dependent upon AoO to set up a blizzard kill routine. However, the more attacks you have, the better and better Avalanche of Blades is, because the bonuses are multiplied across attacks (same logic as Sneak Attacks). Thus, AoB is great for a TWF multi-attack build, but you've got to get 2-4 Touch attacks in before a full attack action to really see the effect...and then you just own.
==Aelryinth
The OP is using the Beast Strike feat which explicitly puts claw damage on unarmed strike. This build is going to deal unarmed strikeX2+eldritch blast damage (beast strike lets you apply claw damage to you UA and eldritch claws makes claws that deal your unarmed damage+your eldritch blast).
And snap kick is almost always better than two weapon fighting since snap kick works on any attack not just full attacks. It is also less cost intensive if you are already doing a UA build.
I guess I could take a level of Bard get a little bit of casting and then only take Jade Phoenix through to 5 levels so I don't loose the second Warlock level. That would give me less high level manuevers, but would give me a second level spell and make entry into the class legal. Does Bard have True Strike?
EDIT: Oh you are the person in the melee warlock thread at GitP. I am MeeposFire. Hope you are getting the answers you need.
There are no kick attacks, is the proper terminology. There's only unarmed strikes, which you can flavor as a kick, and natural weapons, which is probably a hoof or claw strike. Even Snap Kick doesn't say it's attacks are kicks.
Snap kick is only better then TWF if you only want one attack. There ain't no improved Snap kick, after all...and it's a UA strike, so unless you're UA and improving dmg, the damage is going to suck. It's not like you can add that claw dmg to the attack...you're not using the claw limb.
Avalanche of Blades is highly dependent upon AoO to set up a blizzard kill routine. However, the more attacks you have, the better and better Avalanche of Blades is, because the bonuses are multiplied across attacks (same logic as Sneak Attacks). Thus, AoB is great for a TWF multi-attack build, but you've got to get 2-4 Touch attacks in before a full attack action to really see the effect...and then you just own.
==Aelryinth
The OP is using the Beast Strike feat which explicitly puts claw damage on unarmed strike. This build is going to deal unarmed strikeX2+eldritch blast damage (beast strike lets you apply claw damage to you UA and eldritch claws makes claws that deal your unarmed damage+your eldritch blast).
And snap kick is almost always better than two weapon fighting since snap kick works on any attack not just full attacks. It is also less cost intensive if you are already doing a UA build.
This is going to end up with DM interpretation as to the extra attack from Snap Kick getting the Beast Claw bonus. the Beast Claws feat assumes you are attacking with the claws and doing UA damage. Snap Kick assumes you are attacking with something else (generally a foot, but you could flavor it to something else...just not your primary attack).
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a grey area...you're assuming the claws are free to use UA damage with for a Snap Kick, and I'm not. Snap Kick isn't an iterative, and it's not an off-hand/claw attack. I'd personally not allow it...you're not using a claw with a Snap Kick, that's what TWF would do for you.
And as noted, Snap Kick is nice if you only want the one attack, and aren't concerned much with it hitting or doing much dmg. If you're not boosting UA, it's not going to do much, and runs into the same problems with multiple weapons as TWF.
==Aelryinth
Orc_Ertai
To the OP: There is a feat in a 3.0 book (Sword and Fist) called Circle Kick. If it is allowed it would allow you to make another attack anytime you make a "successful unarmed attack roll".
There are no kick attacks, is the proper terminology. There's only unarmed strikes, which you can flavor as a kick, and natural weapons, which is probably a hoof or claw strike. Even Snap Kick doesn't say it's attacks are kicks.
Snap kick is only better then TWF if you only want one attack. There ain't no improved Snap kick, after all...and it's a UA strike, so unless you're UA and improving dmg, the damage is going to suck. It's not like you can add that claw dmg to the attack...you're not using the claw limb.
Avalanche of Blades is highly dependent upon AoO to set up a blizzard kill routine. However, the more attacks you have, the better and better Avalanche of Blades is, because the bonuses are multiplied across attacks (same logic as Sneak Attacks). Thus, AoB is great for a TWF multi-attack build, but you've got to get 2-4 Touch attacks in before a full attack action to really see the effect...and then you just own.
==Aelryinth
The OP is using the Beast Strike feat which explicitly puts claw damage on unarmed strike. This build is going to deal unarmed strikeX2+eldritch blast damage (beast strike lets you apply claw damage to you UA and eldritch claws makes claws that deal your unarmed damage+your eldritch blast).
And snap kick is almost always better than two weapon fighting since snap kick works on any attack not just full attacks. It is also less cost intensive if you are already doing a UA build.
This is going to end up with DM interpretation as to the extra attack from Snap Kick getting the Beast Claw bonus. the Beast Claws feat assumes you are attacking with the claws and doing UA damage. Snap Kick assumes you are attacking with something else (generally a foot, but you could flavor it to something else...just not your primary attack).
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is a grey area...you're assuming the claws are free to use UA damage with for a Snap Kick, and I'm not. Snap Kick isn't an iterative, and it's not an off-hand/claw attack. I'd personally not allow it...you're not using a claw with a Snap Kick, that's what TWF would do for you.
And as noted, Snap Kick is nice if you only want the one attack, and aren't concerned much with it hitting or doing much dmg. If you're not boosting UA, it's not going to do much, and runs into the same problems with multiple weapons as TWF.
==Aelryinth
If you look at the snap kick feat it says if you make a melee attack with one or more weapons you can make an additional attack that is an unarmed attack. There is nothing in the feat to suggest that if you were a one armed man with no legs that you can not punch the target and then punch the target again using the snap kick feat. Snap kick is just a better more limited in weapons form of flurry. Notice that even in its default style it does not ask you to make any two weapon penalties despite that normally trying something like this would. The reason is it is not two weapon fighting. Since beast strike allows me to use an unarmed attack augmented by claws (and that feat does not sayanywhere about what body part you use either in fact it also works with grapples just so you know) it should work fine as long as a DM does not decide to do a houserule.
@MeeposFire -- If Duskblade has better BAB I guess I'd go with that. I"m not sure Bardic Knowledge is worth the point of BAB. This is what I'm looking at right now.
1 Duskblade, 8 Warlock, 5 Jade Phoenix Mage, 3 Hellfire Warlock, 2 Warlock, 1 Warblade
Feats: 1 Precocious Apprentice, 1 Martial Strike, 3 Martial Strike, 6 Martial Stance
At level 20, I can pick up Avalanche of Blades. I don't have quickening strike anymore but I still have empowering strike, so I can empower a true strike (+30 to my next attack) which can greatly help the Avalanche of Blades to hit enough to make it worth taking.
Hellfire will add more damage too. I figure I can take Iron Heart Surge to remove the negative levels. Iron Heart Surge is a tremendous boost anyway and it adds a little accuracy too.
Once I finally get Warblade at 20, I think I can prepare all my manuevers as Warblade Manuevers. I may even take Eldritch Glaive Invocation since I can use Sudden Leap to move and the Glaive to put Essense Effects out there, while I recharge my manuevers. Prior to 20, my strikes and boosts will only work once an encounter, so the build will really mature only at level 20.
Invocations: Eldritch Glaive, Utter Dark Blast, Nightmare made Real,
Any other ideas on Invocations that help me hit or be hit less?
)1) Empower only works on variable stuff as in dice rolls "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half" so it does not work on true strike. Further true strike only works on your xext attack. The first attack you make with avalanche is going to hit already since that has your best BAB. What you need to improve are the attacks after the first attack such as attack #2,#3,#4, etc.
2) Helfire does not give you negative levels it deals con damage. Con damage is not a status so you can not use iron heart surge. You need either strongheart vest which costs a feat and is more debatable rulewise (since it reduces con damage it could make it 0 and some say that is immunity like) or pick up a level of binder and use naberious which woks for sure but costs a level.
You have several promlems (sorry
1) Empower only works on variable stuff as in dice rolls "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half" so it does not work on true strike. Further true strike only works on your xext attack. The first attack you make with avalanche is going to hit already since that has your best BAB. What you need to improve are the attacks after the first attack such as attack #2,#3,#4, etc.
2) Helfire does not give you negative levels it deals con damage. Con damage is not a status so you can not use iron heart surge. You need either strongheart vest which costs a feat and is more debatable rulewise (since it reduces con damage it could make it 0 and some say that is immunity like) or pick up a level of binder and use naberious which woks for sure but costs a level.
Darns...
Still thinking then.
The feat is the same regardless if you're using a sword, claws, or UA. Ergo, your example of a 'second hit with the hand' does not work, because then you'd be doing the same thing with a sword, too. I'll make the Snap Kick with my sword hand, and do sword dmg, too! Not.
Snap Kick is not an iterative attack, which is what you are describing. It is done with some other limb then your primary attack is. That is the whole point of it. Also kindly note that there are no off-hand attacks with UA...so that second claw? That's being used in your primary attack, because it's your nominal off-hand. So Snap kick isn't using the Off Hand, because there is no off hand in UA.
We are left with no primary and no off hand, so the attack is being done with something else, which means Not A Claw. It's just a UA strike.
Damage wise, the feat is nothing special...it gives +1d6 dmg, on average, unless you start going size increases...and size increases could get sick fast, because their effect is doubled with this feat. (i.e. Enlarge Person could go from 1-6+1-6 to 1-8+1-8, then 2-12+2-12, etc...)
===
As for Roundabout Kick...it's an Unarmed Strike. There is still no Kick Attack. Example: Can a fighter specialize in Kick Attacks? No, they don't exist. They are just unarmed strikes, flavored to taste.
===Aelryinth
Snap kick makes no claim of needing a second limb or anything. What you are suggesting is a houserule. It says you attack with a melee attack with a weapon (and we both agree unarmed strike is a melee weapon) then you get to make an additional attack as an unarmed attack with all attacks at a -2. The feat does not say anywhere that you need to keep a limb ready to do this unarmed attack. Snap kick is a special attack, like flurry, not involving the two weapon fighting rules.
As for Roundabout Kick...it's an Unarmed Strike. There is still no Kick Attack. Example: Can a fighter specialize in Kick Attacks? No, they don't exist. They are just unarmed strikes, flavored to taste.
I'm curious, what do you think an Unarmed Strike is made with, exactly?
According to this Skip Williams article, which you swear you have never before seen in your life, it can indeed be made with any limb.
You persist in stating that a kick can be a natural weapon. Yet I do not see it in the list of natural weapons. Could you please help me find supporting evidence for your position?
Here's the list for your convinience.
Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.
Bite
The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon
The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore
The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting
The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle
The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.
Maybe I'll take a different tact. Is there a spell that does the equivalent or better of Instill Vulnerability?
@MeeposFire -- If Duskblade has better BAB I guess I'd go with that. I"m not sure Bardic Knowledge is worth the point of BAB. This is what I'm looking at right now.
1 Duskblade, 8 Warlock, 5 Jade Phoenix Mage, 3 Hellfire Warlock, 2 Warlock, 1 Warblade
Feats: 1 Precocious Apprentice, 1 Martial Strike, 3 Martial Strike, 6 Martial Stance
At level 20, I can pick up Avalanche of Blades. I don't have quickening strike anymore but I still have empowering strike, so I can empower a true strike (+30 to my next attack) which can greatly help the Avalanche of Blades to hit enough to make it worth taking.
Hellfire will add more damage too. I figure I can take Iron Heart Surge to remove the negative levels. Iron Heart Surge is a tremendous boost anyway and it adds a little accuracy too.
Once I finally get Warblade at 20, I think I can prepare all my manuevers as Warblade Manuevers. I may even take Eldritch Glaive Invocation since I can use Sudden Leap to move and the Glaive to put Essense Effects out there, while I recharge my manuevers. Prior to 20, my strikes and boosts will only work once an encounter, so the build will really mature only at level 20.
Invocations: Eldritch Glaive, Utter Dark Blast, Nightmare made Real,
Any other ideas on Invocations that help me hit or be hit less?
Sorry to be a continual downer but your manuevers do not become warblade manuever when you pick up warblade. The rule is found, oddly enough, in the martial study feat.
"If you later gain levels in a martial adept class (crusader, swordsage, or warblade)...but your previous manuevers (gained through this feat or through prestige class levels) do not gain a recovery method".
So unfortunately you cannot by RAW give your pre-warblade stuff a recovery method. On the plus side they are always readied outside of your readied warblade manuevers which gives you more readied manuevers so it is not all bad.
Aelryinth- Two weapon fighting specifies that extra attacks come from your of hand. natural attacks specify that they cannot use a limb that has already been used. These are specific called out rules. Snap kick is niether two weapon fighting or natural attacks. Snap kick is its own thing. Nothing in the feat (and the feat is unique in the game for what it does) says that it requires you to use a different limb than the one you used to attack in the first place, unless that first attack was not an unarmed attack (this is because if I use a limb for a longsword attack for example I cannot use that same limb for an unarmed attack). You would have to show how the feat itself says I am required to use a different limb and please do not use rules not germaine to snap kick (such as two weapon fighting or natural attacks since snap kick is niether). A beast strike eldritch claw is an unarmed strike so it can be used with snap kick.
Further you are not discussing how your theory works with flurry of blows which allows you to make extra attacks but does not force you to use two weapon fighting rules (even if you use kamas) or prevents you from using the same limb for each attack (a 1st level monk could use their main hand twice if that monks flurries and never has to use two weapon fighting or use an alternate limb, he could use his right fist both times for example). Of course if we were discussing Pathfinder you would be 100% on track since that Flurry is two weapon fighting esque, but it is not we are discussing standard 3.5.
Please keep posts polite and on topic.
Looks like I can't get Instill Vulnerability. Its a Dark Invocation, and you have to trade a higher level Invocation for a Dragonfire Adept Invocation.
There is a 3rd level cleric/wizard/sorcerer spell Energy Vulnerability that is a weaker version of Instill Vulnerability in PHB2.
Its impossible as far as I can see to have level 9 initiator level and Dark Invocations.
Once you decide you aren't getting one or the other how much of the them do you really want?
Being able to hit multiple times in a round with Utterdark Blast is amazing, but you can't do that with Eldritch Claws only Eldritch Glaive. Eldritch Glaive could give you a round to recover maneuvers though so maybe E Glaive has a good purpose in a build?
Of course I still haven't found a good way to hit multiple times with Avalanche of Blades... True Strike didn't work...
Hellfire, if so how much Hellfire?
Do you take the level of Binder to use Hellfire?
And then there is the Dragonfire Adept Invocation: Instill Vulnerability, its a Dark Invocation so it is impossible to get it on a Warlock (Warlocks can only get Dragonfire Adept invocations if they trade a higher level invocation). There is a spell, Energy Vulnerability that is 3rd level for Clerics. It doesn't look to be as good since it has a HD cap. If you are going to go for some levels as a spell caster then the dual progession Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge look like they might be worth something in the build.
Bloodclaw Master -- The two weapon fighting bonuses are very interesting
Shadow Sun Ninja -- The healing and negative energy bonuses
Or just making sure I get at least Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade and maybe two.
I will see if I can think of a build that gets 9th level manuevers and dark invocations.
Utterdark Blast Essense cannot be used with Eldritch Claws. That stinks, but essences give you a good reason to use Glaive, especially if you get something that is stackable like Utterdark Blast.
Heres a thought
Warlock6/warblade1/jade phoenix mage10/uncanny trickster3
Initiator level 17/invocations16*/BAB+17
*If you use the table for JPM that says "every level except 1 and 6 get a bonus to spellcasting" as true after you get past level 10 JPM. If you try to figure out a pattern it could go down to invocation 15.
Now if we use legacy champion you could get invocations to that magical 16 level for sure. However it could cost some BAB. Since I do not own that book I cannot build that character and see what you get.
Now if you have +17 BAB you should have little trouble hitting with your first attack, your snap kick attack, your second iterative should hit, your 3rd iterative will need a decent roll, and your last attack will need a very good roll. If you decide to forgo the buckler (or use a feat to pick up imp buckler defense) you can add a secondary natural claw attack (do not use twop weapon fighting, so no beast strike on this attack, since it takes another feat and penalizies your other attacks again but secondary natural do not) and this attack will have a chance to hit as good as your second iterative (which is preety good). If you can get the knowledge ranks in and get enough bonuses knowledge devotion can be a great feat to get insight bonuses to attack and damage.
I was liking getting Haste, Energy Vulnerability, Dispel Magic, and some sort of good buff to hit. (I wasn't thinking of using Time Stop, buffing for 4 rounds then recharging to be ready to fight or polymorph)
I also liked that it was a much more "elegant" transition into Jade Phoenix Mage w/o having to take feats and spell casting classes in order to get into something that would progress Warlock and Initiator Level.
In truth WoTC didn't flesh that idea out nearly enough. Two many big questions get left. I'm sad though because it did look like a good answer.
Heres a thought
Warlock6/warblade1/jade phoenix mage10/uncanny trickster3
Again, how does Warlock qualify for casting 2nd level spells?
If you feel that will not fly you will need to look into legacy champion in weapons of legacy. That will probably save you enough levels to get what want though I am not sure how it will hurt your BAB. I will look into it.
Do you really need 9th level maneuvers? There are lots of maneuvers that are really good that are not level 9 and considering the reltively low number of maneuvers you will have period perhaps an intiator level is not that important.
Outside of utterdark blast what other dark invocations do you want?
I like Time Stands Still, but need is pretty strong. I also really like Strike of Righteous Vitality since that seems to be the only maneuver that can repair Hellfire Damage. A Heal spell as often as you can do that is pretty darn strong.
There is a ton of level 8 maneuvers and stances that I like. I think Stance of Alacrity is huge.
Notice I love the things that break normal economy of actions per round.
Utter Dark Blast is the only Dark Invocation I really want. I'm starting to want it less too since you can't use your Invocation Essences on your Eldritch Claws. Again, I was trying to find a good way to hit multiple times with Utter dark blast.
If you rule he could, then you could rule that ALL his claw attacks are secondary...clearly not what the feat intends. Getting all your UA + all your claw attacks, AND adding claw dmg to all your UA is clearly not what the feat intends. It's there so you can get your claw dmg while using your UA, not get claw dmg twice.
===Aelryinth
Also off hand doesn't really matter because each do the same damage, less the strength mods. You still get off hand attacks. You have a claw on each hand so if you are worried about the off hand you can attack with either hand and both have claws.
The Beaststrike works on every unarmed strike. Even if its an "off hand" unarmed strike.
If he's using Beast Claw, he wouldn't have a secondary Claw attack to use. It's part of his UA routine. he could use a bite or something else, however.
If you rule he could, then you could rule that ALL his claw attacks are secondary...clearly not what the feat intends. Getting all your UA + all your claw attacks, AND adding claw dmg to all your UA is clearly not what the feat intends. It's there so you can get your claw dmg while using your UA, not get claw dmg twice.
===Aelryinth
Actually beast strike just adds claw damage to your unarmed strike. You can choose to just use a normal claw attack. So I am saying use unarmed attack with your main hand and then use your other hand as a true claw attack (this will deal less damage but the attack penalties will be less) rather than an unarmed strike thus making it a secondary natural attack. If you use both hands to get an extra attack using unarmed strikes then it becomes two weapon fighting which is not worth using unless you have a feat to spare on two weapon fighting.
Talionis while it may not matter normally which limb you use for an unarmed strike it does with this beast strike as the eldritch claws feat is clear that the claws are located on your hands meaning these unarmed stries that get your beast strike eldritch claws damage need to be your hands. So do you want to use two weapon fighting (lowers your main hand accuracy and takes one feat), use a secondary natural attack (less damage on that one attack), or use neither and not use both hands (less attacks). Unless you decide against snap kick (which I think is better than either two weapon fighting or natural attacks) you will already be taking a -2 on all attacks so keep that in mind.
1. Get as many invocation essenses stacked on target as possible
2. Multiply the number of Eldritch Damage done in a round.
The first one unfortunately cannot be done with Eldritch Claws. But the second should be possible to do a lot more with Eldritch CLaws.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it is easier to give you my goals: Originally it was to make Avalanche of Blows work with Utterdark Blast. While I have figured out builds that can get both. Now I realize that EClaws can't pass on the essensces, big bummer to me. Stacking Utterdark Blast a bunch of times was really appealing. I realize that Utterdark Blast with Eldritch Glaive can go multiple times but only by BAB. I know a few spells that help increase BAB, I think Tenser's Transformation will do that.
But still you can get a huge damage boost with EClaws. So I guess I'm looking to hit as often as possible with EClaws. What do you suggest? You've been a huge help. I'm just curious.
Duskblade1/warlock3/warblade1/legacychampion1/jadephoenixmage1/legacychampion9/abjurantchampion4
Initiator level-19
Warlock casting-14
duskblade casting-1
BAB-17
We could replace duskblade if you want and your DM allows the precocious apprentice trick work with a warlock. That would get you up to warlock casting 15. If we could milk one more warlock level you would have all that you want. You could replace warblade but then you lose refreshing maneuvers (which is nice though you do not need refreshing as much since you do have invocations). That would get you to warlock 16 for dark invocations and a +16 BAB (as long as you use fractional BAB).
This lets Legacy Champion copy levels of Jade Phoenix Mage. Legacy Champion losses a level, but copies everything. So it in effect lets you go JPM 15 loosing only two casting levels (one from JPM at 1 and one from LC, but not the JPM 5or6 where you would normally loose).
I don't have the Legacy Champions books though so I may need to find that info.
That would be level 16 Warlock Invocations (Utter Dark Blast at 20) but it wouldn't let me take a level of Swordsage at 20 to pick up 6 high level maneuvers.
But I would be level 9 manuevers at level 19, I JPM would has a maneuver pick there so you could get Strike of Righteous Vitality. I don't think you'd have access to Diamond Mind level 9, that I wanted but still good. I'm not sure how LC would affect maneuver choices at those high level.
Level 18, I can pick up a level 8 maneuver with a feat.
It achieves all the standards now. Not sure we couldn't do better with a different combonation, say work on a way to get EClaws hitting a bunch of times in one round and then use some hellfire tricks.
Legacy champion gives you the ability to increase class features as you pick up levels in it. In effect it gives you 8 levels of class features for 10 levels of legacy champion. So in effect your build has the class features of a level 13 JPM. You do lose a caster level at JPM level 5 and anyother level that JPM loses a level (whether epic progression JPM loses caster levels is up for debate). Your build at best has a warlock caster level of 14. You could get up to 16 by removing duskblade and warblade for more warlock.
If he's using Beast Claw, he wouldn't have a secondary Claw attack to use. It's part of his UA routine. he could use a bite or something else, however.
If you rule he could, then you could rule that ALL his claw attacks are secondary...clearly not what the feat intends. Getting all your UA + all your claw attacks, AND adding claw dmg to all your UA is clearly not what the feat intends. It's there so you can get your claw dmg while using your UA, not get claw dmg twice.
===Aelryinth
Actually beast strike just adds claw damage to your unarmed strike. You can choose to just use a normal claw attack. So I am saying use unarmed attack with your main hand and then use your other hand as a true claw attack (this will deal less damage but the attack penalties will be less) rather than an unarmed strike thus making it a secondary natural attack. If you use both hands to get an extra attack using unarmed strikes then it becomes two weapon fighting which is not worth using unless you have a feat to spare on two weapon fighting.
Talionis while it may not matter normally which limb you use for an unarmed strike it does with this beast strike as the eldritch claws feat is clear that the claws are located on your hands meaning these unarmed stries that get your beast strike eldritch claws damage need to be your hands. So do you want to use two weapon fighting (lowers your main hand accuracy and takes one feat), use a secondary natural attack (less damage on that one attack), or use neither and not use both hands (less attacks). Unless you decide against snap kick (which I think is better than either two weapon fighting or natural attacks) you will already be taking a -2 on all attacks so keep that in mind.
I'm missing something. You can't use TWF with UA as the primary...it's in the Monk description. You're using everything with UA, there is no off-hand.
So, if you're using this feat to add claw damage to your attacks, you're using all your claws to add to your UA...combined attacks, as it were. Taking a claw as a second attack means you aren't using it with your UA, which means you aren't using the feat. Not sure how you're justifying that. You can't limit UA to one limb once its primary, and its always primary over a natural weapon, right? So, no claw attacks while you're adding claw dmg to UA. You're already using it 'in combo'.
===Aelryinth
Beast strike allows me to add claw damage to an unarmed attack.
If I make an unarmed attack with a limb I can not use that limb to make a dedicated claw attack.
If I do not use limb for a n unarmed attack it could be used for a different type of attack. I could use another weapon or a natural weapon.
Beast strike only applies when I use UA but it does not force me to make unarmed attacks. I can still choose to use all claw attacks or just one.
If I use my right hand to make an unarmed attack it gets to add claw damage due to beast strike. If I decide to use my left hand I need to make a choice
1) If I decide to make an additional unarmed attack I will have to use two weapon fighting rules with the accociated penalties.
2) I can attack using just my claw (not unarmed attack). This would be a natural attack and follow the rules for natural attacks, which in this case would be a secondary natural attack. Damage would be lower (since you will not get UA damage twice) but accuracy would be better on your main hand (as secondary natural attacks do not penalise the main hand like two weapon fighting does). I can make this choice since beast strike does not force me to always make unarmed attacks.
Lastly that rule you quoted (which has been a hotly debated item in terms of what it actually means) only applies to monks anyway.
"There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
That is specific to the monk class and nobody else. It specifies monk in the sentence and so it must be read that everybody else must be different. So in the end this rule has no bearing in this conversation since nobody has used the monk class yet.
On the other hand, you can do Eldritch Glaive from a Hellfire Warlock (with binder/soulmeld cheese), easily dealing 12+d6 with each iterative attack (which are touch attacks, and much more likely to hit). At, say, warlock 11/hellfire warlock 3, you would be dealing 15d6 per glaive attack (7d6 eldritch blast, 6d6 hellfire blast, 2d6 greater chasuble of fell power), though its only two iterative attacks at this level. Not to mention you can alter glaive with Utterdark Blast, which seemed to be one of your goals earlier on.
Claws give you an option to use the mongoose boosts for instance while glaive does not. Claws are usable on the move and glaive is not.
The necklace will work with beast strike claws as well. You also lose snap kick and other unarmed bonuses you could stack. Heck use a battlfist to really get started (requires a graft) and heck use both if you want. His BAB is not bad so I think the chances of hitting are good. Right now the character can attack 2X at max BAB-2, 2x at BAB-7 (one secodary nat weapon and another UA), 1x BAB-12, and 1x BAB-17. The last two are unlikely to hit of course. So now we have 2 attacks that are very likely to hit and 2 that have a good chance of hitting (with higher damage). Your claws are stuck at 2 attacks before speed (which beast strike+claws get too so that part is a wash). Snap kick puts mobility in foavor of the beast strike.
Your idea is better for casual investment I think where you are using claws if they get close. Beast strike is neccessary for you to use claws at full power. Considering what the OP wanted I think continuing the beast strike idea is prudent, though you can make some nice builds using glaive and just claws. Glaive would be the way to go for sure if utterdark was your favorite part of a warlock.
warblade1/warlock4/legacychampion1/nosomatichirurgeun1/abjurantchampion3/JPM1/legacychamp9
initiator-19 (9+1+1+8)
invocations-15
BAB-16
adept casting-1
This assumes all legacy champion levels go to JPM. If I do not put all into JPM I get this (put two into abjurant champ and warlock each for instance)...
initiator level-15 (9+1+1+4)
invocations-16
BAB-16
adept casting-1
Here is another go...
Warblade1/warlock4/LC1/NC1/JPM4/LC9
Initiator level-20(7+1+4+8)
BAB-16
invocations-15
adeptcasting-1
Looks like we are stuck choosing between 9th level manuevers, dark invocations, or recharge/access to tiger claw+diamond mind maneuvers.
At least you do not need to use precocious apprentice anymore.