Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 brolthemighty Dec 18, 2011 6:24:42	So, I posted this in another forum, but thought I'd come to the best to see what you guys say as well. Alright, so I'm having a hard time figuring out the ToB Initiator rules.  Not so much for the basics of it, but how they interact with Gestalt/Tristalt and such.  Here's the build. Artificer 30//Shield Warrior 20/Warforged Armorlord 10//Monk1/Swordsage4/Crusader5/Warlord20 Now, due to the requirements of certain Epic Feats, the 3 disciplines I'm focusing on are Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, and Setting Sun, with a class breakdown of course of: Crusader: Devoted Spirit Swordsage: Setting Sun Shield Warrior: Stone Dragon Now, here's where I get confused.  Had this been a single line build, it would have been fairly simple figuring out IL's and such.  However, it's not.  Anyone mind helping me out?  Or at least giving an explanation I can figure it out with.  AFAIK you base your maneuvers known/readied/etc. off of that class's IL, so if I can figure out their individual IL's, then I should be set, yes? The idea here is to get 9th level maneuvers for all 3 disciplines.  I took a single level of Monk because the Epic Feat I'm going for requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and Stunning Fist....so I thought that would be the most efficient way of getting it.  What do you guys say? I'm going for some AC/DR optimization.
#2 ElVizard Dec 18, 2011 12:46:26	First, I don't understand something. Have you a triple gestalt char? I didn't know that was possible. Second, in a gestalt campaings, you have two ways to see the IL. RAW: your initiator level is your level in the martial class + 1/2 levels in ALL your other classes. That is: Crusader 5 + 1/2*(85 levels in other classes) = 47. RAI: your IL is your level in the martial class + 1/2*(the amount of levels you don't have that class). For the previous example: Crusader 5 +1/2*(25 levels you don't have a crusade level)= 17. Note there's a Huge difference. So you should ask your DM how does he consider it. This is like when you play a normal gestalt campaign, and you are using a wizard with a spellcasting advancing class. Suppose you have wizard 10// other 5/Incantatrix 5. RAI: You cast spells like a 15th level wizard, so you have 8th level spells at level 10. RAW: You have 5 levels where two classes advance in spellcasting, you take the best of both. So you cast spells like a 10th level wizard. Personally, as a DM, I use the second method. As UA doesn't specify about this the DM should decide how does he consider it. Also, consider that you don't "born beeign a lv 30 with that IL", so you should see at each level which maneuvers are available for you. For you to understand, think you are a wizard of effective level= your IL (do this at each level). The highest level maneuver you can learn is the highest level the wizard can cast. Still, that doesn't mean you will learn a maneuver on that level. You onle learn maneuvers when your class abilities. So you should get the martial class as later as possible. Your prepared/readied maneuvers are other thing. They have nothing to do with your IL. You have as much prepared/readied maneuvers as your CLASS level in the martial class says. Something you must know is that you don't "need" to have only one discipline for each class. Third, I personally don't recommend either AC/DR. For your level the DR you can get by maneuvers is probably useless. Also maneuvers don't help you much with AC (all +2 or so bonus isn't much when they are hitting for over 50). Setting sun and Devoted spirit will help you to handle the low AC problem by other means. For example: Shield counter (DS 7th) and Counter charge (SS 1st), let you cancel opponent's attacks without giving them the chance to hit you. Hope you find this useful
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Dec 18, 2011 14:42:01	Gestalt was always a variant rule; there was never any support for it outside of its original presentation in Unearthed Arcana. You won't be able to find any help with it here - especially not on a three-track variant on the gestalt variant. Likewise for most epic support - if it didn't appear in the book introducing it, there isn't any. (We have no epic binder (apart from an odd article that's been eaten by the internets), no epic shadowcaster, no epic truenamer (HAHAHAHA), no epic dread necromancer, no epic incarnum, and so on.) In short, there's no way to know what gestalt is "supposed" to do to martial adepts or how they work in epic: there simply isn't anything written on it. If your goal is all 9 ninth-level maneuvers, you're definitely over-engineering things. This will work instead.    AFAIK you base your maneuvers known/readied/etc. off of that class's IL... That's wrong. You base those statistics entirely off of your class level (augmented by things like the bonus maneuvers known/readied/etc from prestige classes). Your initiator level only factors in when determining which maneuvers you can learn, not how many.
#4 brolthemighty Dec 18, 2011 18:43:46	All of this actually clears it all up, thanks guys!