Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thegreatsanguini Nov 19, 2008 22:35:54	I'm currently in a campaign allowing only the following books as allowable supplements: Dungeon Master's Guide Player's Handbook Monster Manual Complete Adventurer Complete Arcane Complete Champion Complete Divine Complete Mage Complete Scoundrel Complete Warrior Frostburn He is also allowing Traits and Flaws from the SRD. Psionics SEEM to be disallowed in this campaign altogether, but the DM has not stipulated whether or not such is the case. Despite the resource limitations, we are allowed races from other books, and I chose to play using the Feral Template applied to a Human. Our Characters have an ECL of 6, meaning I have 5 class levels with which to play. So far, my character outline is: Class: Ranger1/Fighter2/Barbarian1/Hexblade1 Stats: As determined by 32 point buy Str 20 Dex 14 [bonus point from 4th level] Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Skills: Climb 8, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 5, Jump 8, Ride 5, Tumble 4[cross class] Skill tricks: Extreme Leap, Speedy Ascent Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike Power Attack Flying Kick Improved Natural Attack Weapon Focus(Claws) Run Improved Initiative *Track[Ranger Bonus Feat] Traits and Flaws: Trait: Abrasive Trait: Nightsighted Trait: Plucky Trait: Detatched Trait: Aggressive Trait: Quick Flaw: Shaky Flaw: Poor Reflexes Equipment: +1 Deathward Mithral Breastplate I only have 9,000 starting gp. The reasoning behind my choices so far is pretty simple. All skills were chosen either for good mobility, or for the "Kensai" Prc from Complete warrior. The Hexblade class level was to make diplomacy a class skill without dropping my BAB, allowing me to become Kensai with the next level. If there is no way of getting combat expertise without 13 Intelligence, then I will switch that around as well to become Kensai. Ultimately, all choices revolve around becoming a Kensai. My questions are: 1) Is the Kensai worth the sacrafices needed to become one as a natural-attack combatant? I can't seem to find any other way of circumventing DR creatures, or keeping up with the other melee characters of my party. If not the Kensai, what other Prc would be good to aim myself towards? Two other options I was considering were both the Occult Slayer (so I don't find myself becoming a caster's *****) or Reaping Mauler (to take full advantage of my natural grappling affinity). 2) What other gear could I choose instead of a maxed out breastplate? 3) What changes would you Optimeisters make, given the supplement restrictions? How would you go about making a powerful Feral melee combatant? Thanks in advance, Sanguini
#2 ChristopherGroves Nov 20, 2008 8:53:21	I'd honestly probably drop Barb in favor of Monk and avoid Kensai and instead just pick up an amulet of Mighty Fists http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists You might also consider becoming a pouncing Swift Hunter (the Ranger / Scout combo). Something like ... Scout 3 / Ranger 1 / Monk 1 ... for now ... From there take one more Monk, then advance Ranger Swift Hunter stacks Ranger + Scout for Favored Enemies, Skirmish Damage and allows your skirmish to affect your favored enemies regardless of whether or not they are immune to precision damage. Ascetic Hunter stacks Ranger + Monk for unarmed strike damage By advancing Ranger you'll get nifty spells and abilities to help a pouncer. You'll eventually want Improved Skirmish or whatever it is called to add another 2d6 skirmish damage. Here's the Swift Hunter guide http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152 Anyway, that's the direction I'd go. My reasoning: Feral gets you claws Feral gets you pounce You can claw and unarmed strike in the same routine Swift Hunter allows you to apply your skirmish damage against your favored enemies
#3 psorowman Nov 20, 2008 9:12:09	I too have been making a feral melee combatant, and though we're allowed more books (BoVD, RoS, MM2, UA), you might be able to get some of the benefits I've found. the characters a Feral Goliath (LA 2) barbarian for levels 1-5, fighter 2, and then something else you couldn't use for the last 10. He takes the goliath racial substitution, making him large size while raging and few other benefits. As for feats, these ones are good, but i'm not sure where they're from: Reckless Rage Powerful Charge Extend Rage Extra Rage These are his stats: Str +14 (+22 raging) Dex -2 Con +8 (+14 raging) Int -4 Wis +2 Cha As you can see, a feral goliath gets pretty crazy strength while raging. Anyways, I realize that the LA 2 is a hassle, but even so, I'd highly recommend the feral goliath as a melee smasher.
#4 thegreatsanguini Nov 20, 2008 12:40:17	Goliath is unavailable to me. We are not allowed the Races of Stone book. b I've just recently read through the thread in which you were suggested to use Primeval, and I'm now considering gearing myself towards that as well. Chris, how do you propose I circumvent the multiclassing penalties of level 3 scout? Also, am I correct in understanding you saying that on the pounce, I may use both claw attacks, AS WELL AS the monk unarmed strike? The scout option seems pretty neat, as mobility based damage dealing would help for a useful build in this campaign. I'll look into it further. Any more advice would be appreciated.
#5 ChristopherGroves Nov 20, 2008 12:57:20	Yes ... unarmed with claws as secondary natural weapons. For multi-class penalties ... does feral change your favored class or something? You're human right?
#6 toryn Nov 20, 2008 16:56:36	What book is the Feral template in?
#7 thegreatsanguini Nov 20, 2008 17:21:05	Feral is in Savage Species, a supplement restricted from the campaign with the exception of the feral template itself (for whatever reason). And yes, Feral changes your favoured class to barbarian, regardless of what it was previously. I made a new sheet using the Ranger Wild Shape variant before realizing that Unearthed Arcana also was a restricted supplement (except for the traits and flaws). Maddening. Therefore, I don't see any way to retain full BAB while still getting the wild shape ability required for either the Nature's Warrior Prc (Complete Warrior) or to greatly enhance Primeval Prc (Frostburn). Is there something I'm possibly overlooking?
#8 ChristopherGroves Nov 20, 2008 18:43:36	Bear Warrior?
#9 thegreatsanguini Nov 20, 2008 21:25:15	Bear warrior comes in a bit late, starting at 7th level. It means I can't go into Nature's Warrior when I should normally be able to, and that I only get one level of it before Primeval. Also, since it is not wildshape or any equivalent ability, but rather an extesion of Rage, it doesn't help Primeval at all. However, I have another question. I just recently discovered that I will not gain any attacks with my natural weapons at BAB6, or any other times when I normally would. Is there any way of increasing the number of my natural attacks, or am I destined to switch to a normal weapon in later levels just to keep up with the other fighters?
#10 Wyvernhand Nov 20, 2008 21:31:00	You need Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike from the Dracinomicon. Rapid Strike allows you to make a 2nd attack with a "set" of natural weapons, like 2 claws, or 2 wings, or similarly paired natural weapons. You qualify for that. This 2nd attack is similar to a 2nd iterative. It applies to BOTH natual weapons in the set. Improved Rapid Strike allows you to make full iterative attacks with your "set" of natural weapons.
#11 thegreatsanguini Nov 20, 2008 21:39:07	That's just.... beautiful. I think I might cry. :D Well, after seeing all of these goodies it's clear I should just convince my DM to allow more supplements, given that he's already flaky on the subject (We have a necropolitan strongheart halfling warlock). Draconomicon, and Unearthed Arcana are the two I need in order to get the build I want, it seems. Thanks for the help. Again though, any help with optimizing a feral would be nice. There are tons of guides for fighters and barbarians, but despite Feral being such a notoriously powerful template there seems to be no resources set aside for them.
#12 ChristopherGroves Nov 21, 2008 6:34:35	Rapidstrike takes feats. This was the basis for my original suggestion of monk ... because your unarmed gain iteratives. Sorry about the Barb favored-class foul up. Bear Warrior is effectively wild shape, FYI. You'll only want to take it for 5 levels anyway. Have you considered "normal" damage boosters? Power Attack, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, etc.?
#13 thegreatsanguini Nov 21, 2008 9:51:30	Power Attack without a two handed weapon nets no real gain, and both combat brute and shock trooper are meant for two handed weapons. Neither would help me out too much, especially given that I can choose no other feats then as all would have to be dedicated to those tactical feats and their prereqs. Also, Bear Warrior is NOT wildshape for the purpose of Primeval, as I explained, and it comes in too late to be of use for qualifying for Nature's Warrior. In itself, it's not a particularly bad class, but it's far from stellar. Monk, I'm looking into now. DM ruled that I can't use natural weapons and unarmed strikes in the same round though, and the BAB loss hurts.