3/4 BAB and Full Arcane Casting besides Sacred Exorcist? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3/4 BAB and Full Arcane Casting besides Sacred Exorcist?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Endarire
Dec 08, 2008 15:50:24 My standard wizard gish build is Human Paragon1/Barbarian1 (Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy)/Martial Transmuter1/Human Paragon+2/Martial Transmuter+1/Ruathar2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Ruathar+1/Sacred Exorcist4.

Other PrCs exist to allow me 16+ BAB and L9 spells by L20; however, what classes besides Sacred Exorcist exist to progress wizardly casting for their first 4 levels while offering at least 3/4 BAB?
#2
cragghunter
Dec 08, 2008 16:08:53 Unseen seer which works great with human paragon, skills and more skills.
#3
feloniousela
Dec 08, 2008 16:38:00 I feel like that build is trying to do wayyyyy too much. I mean, I'm sure it plays out fine as it's 9th level spells and full attacks, but it seems like you are spending an awful lot of feats on gaining peripheral abilities.

Do you want to be a charger? It seems that way if you think the Barb level is worth it. But if you take all the good charge feats, plus what you will need for your PrC's, then you will be very feat starved for anything at all besides those.

The abilities Ruathar gives you are pretty meh, unless you are playing a LOOONG campaign where age really is an issue, so why take the BAB hit?

You're not getting casting in armor until level 10, which, by then, may or may not be hugely important, but a lot of other Gish builds get it levels earlier around 7. Abjurant Champion comes in too late, that is the bread and butter of gish builds, the absolute best part. You have to get that in as early as possible, in my opinion.

Human Paragon has some awesome stuff, so I can't really argue with that as I'm a big fan of it too.

Fighter 1/Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

Tons of spells, tons of feats, 9th spells, 18 BAB, Illumian w/Aeshkrau sigil could be a strong choice as the build is not specific to humans, or Elf generalist for the hummingbird +8 to initiative if that's how you roll, swap out 1 level of EK if you want to trade +1 BAB for either another feat or Spontaneous Divination, you could still squeeze Dragonslayer in there if you really want immunity to fear (costs you two yucky feats though...bleh...that's what spells are for).

Edit:
Unseen seer which works great with human paragon, skills and more skills.

Awesome idea.
#4
Endarire
Dec 08, 2008 19:20:27 My goal was to maximize BAB and wizard caster level. I chose ruathar since it's 3/4 BAB and full wizard casting. I chose human paragon for its bonus feat, +2 to any stat, and 2/3 casting.

I also wish for this build to be viable at any level and for any nongood alignment.

I'm more interested in finding a replacement for Sacred Exorcist than having my build critiqued, but I found the Unseen Seer. Danke, Cragg.
#5
feloniousela
Dec 08, 2008 20:49:56 My apologies for the critique then.
#6
Endarire
Dec 08, 2008 23:37:23 FE: No need. Your critique promped me to realize Unseen Seer's viability!
#7
unundindur
Dec 09, 2008 4:39:16 I am not sure aobut a direct substitute, but as far as power goes, if you play in Faerun, I would suggest elf conjurer5/eldritch knight3/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch knight 7

That is a +17 BaB, CL 20. With that as a basis, you can start swapping out eldrith knight levels for whatever you want, as long as you never lose more than 1 BaB. Ruathar is an example that seems very plausible, and geometer, fatespinner and other easy-to-enter classes could be interresting.

I have also heard rumors of a crazy class in the ravenloft core book, that supposedly gives you everything and then some, but I haven ot seen that myself.

And if you wondered about how you would qualify for eldritch knight by level 5, its through the coolest feat in the books: Otherworldly.

As a bonus, this whole think is very fluff-consistent, and even more so if you add in those Ruathar levels.
#8
unundindur
Dec 09, 2008 6:44:42 How could I forget the most awesome of them all: Jade Phoenix Mage from tome of battle.

That turns out to something like this: Warblade1/Conjurer5/JPM2/Abjurant Champion5/JPM7

If you ever hit epic, you finish JMP and take a level of monk (and the carmendine monk feat)
#9
kurashu
Dec 09, 2008 6:48:00 Geomancer with the southern magician feat is a decent sub for sacred exorcist.
#10
pithica
Dec 09, 2008 8:20:41 Taking the otherworldly feat doesn't increase your BAB that way.

Only the racial hit-dice of an outsider get the full bab, monk saves, and 8+int skill points/level.
#11
unundindur
Dec 09, 2008 8:41:30 Its not related to BaB, as Eldritch thurge don't have a BaB requirement. Its related to martial weapon proficiency, and beeing a native outsider gives you proficiency with all martial weapons (for some odd reason). This is also confirmed by customer service, though I don't have the reference now.
#12
pithica
Dec 09, 2008 8:43:57 You're right...My bad...I didn't see the EK levels in front of the Abjurant Champ levels and thought you were using it to up the BAB of Wiz.

Sorry for the inconvenience, we now return you to your regularly scheduled program, and this time we promise that people on cold medication will not interrupt.
#13
feloniousela
Dec 09, 2008 16:35:57 Here is a link to the Knight Phantom, which is essentially an Eldritch Knight that gains actual abilities...and a little bit better HD.

Knight Phantom

from Five Nations Eberron book.

I could be wrong, but I feel like the Ravenloft class referred to progresses clerical casting? I am not sure on that though. I know Carnivore used it in a cool Glaivelock build a while back, but I lost the link to that thread.

Edit: Knight of the Raven is a divine casting PrC from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is really pretty nice.
#14
the_shaman
Dec 10, 2008 3:29:21
Other PrCs exist to allow me 16+ BAB and L9 spells by L20; however, what classes besides Sacred Exorcist exist to progress wizardly casting for their first 4 levels while offering at least 3/4 BAB?

Hmm... Ruathar gives 3/3 and medium BAB, but the 2 that come to mind and have more than 4 levels - Evereskan Tomb Guardian from PGtF and Master of the Yuirwood from Unapproachable East - both iirc require you to be an elf.
#15
unundindur
Dec 10, 2008 3:45:23 I have always dreamed of using that crazy fochulan lyrist beast, but I haven ot found a way to effectively foil the incredible requirements (not often you need 3 classes to enter...).

You can also get funny if you use sublime chord and multiclass into abjurant champion etc afterwards...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarire Dec 08, 2008 15:50:24	My standard wizard gish build is Human Paragon1/Barbarian1 (Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy)/Martial Transmuter1/Human Paragon+2/Martial Transmuter+1/Ruathar2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Ruathar+1/Sacred Exorcist4. Other PrCs exist to allow me 16+ BAB and L9 spells by L20; however, what classes besides Sacred Exorcist exist to progress wizardly casting for their first 4 levels while offering at least 3/4 BAB?
#2 cragghunter Dec 08, 2008 16:08:53	Unseen seer which works great with human paragon, skills and more skills.
#3 feloniousela Dec 08, 2008 16:38:00	I feel like that build is trying to do wayyyyy too much. I mean, I'm sure it plays out fine as it's 9th level spells and full attacks, but it seems like you are spending an awful lot of feats on gaining peripheral abilities. Do you want to be a charger? It seems that way if you think the Barb level is worth it. But if you take all the good charge feats, plus what you will need for your PrC's, then you will be very feat starved for anything at all besides those. The abilities Ruathar gives you are pretty meh, unless you are playing a LOOONG campaign where age really is an issue, so why take the BAB hit? You're not getting casting in armor until level 10, which, by then, may or may not be hugely important, but a lot of other Gish builds get it levels earlier around 7. Abjurant Champion comes in too late, that is the bread and butter of gish builds, the absolute best part. You have to get that in as early as possible, in my opinion. Human Paragon has some awesome stuff, so I can't really argue with that as I'm a big fan of it too. Fighter 1/Barbarian (Lion Totem) 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 Tons of spells, tons of feats, 9th spells, 18 BAB, Illumian w/Aeshkrau sigil could be a strong choice as the build is not specific to humans, or Elf generalist for the hummingbird +8 to initiative if that's how you roll, swap out 1 level of EK if you want to trade +1 BAB for either another feat or Spontaneous Divination, you could still squeeze Dragonslayer in there if you really want immunity to fear (costs you two yucky feats though...bleh...that's what spells are for). Edit: Unseen seer which works great with human paragon, skills and more skills. Awesome idea.
#4 Endarire Dec 08, 2008 19:20:27	My goal was to maximize BAB and wizard caster level. I chose ruathar since it's 3/4 BAB and full wizard casting. I chose human paragon for its bonus feat, +2 to any stat, and 2/3 casting. I also wish for this build to be viable at any level and for any nongood alignment. I'm more interested in finding a replacement for Sacred Exorcist than having my build critiqued, but I found the Unseen Seer. Danke, Cragg.
#5 feloniousela Dec 08, 2008 20:49:56	My apologies for the critique then.
#6 Endarire Dec 08, 2008 23:37:23	FE: No need. Your critique promped me to realize Unseen Seer's viability!
#7 unundindur Dec 09, 2008 4:39:16	I am not sure aobut a direct substitute, but as far as power goes, if you play in Faerun, I would suggest elf conjurer5/eldritch knight3/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch knight 7 That is a +17 BaB, CL 20. With that as a basis, you can start swapping out eldrith knight levels for whatever you want, as long as you never lose more than 1 BaB. Ruathar is an example that seems very plausible, and geometer, fatespinner and other easy-to-enter classes could be interresting. I have also heard rumors of a crazy class in the ravenloft core book, that supposedly gives you everything and then some, but I haven ot seen that myself. And if you wondered about how you would qualify for eldritch knight by level 5, its through the coolest feat in the books: Otherworldly. As a bonus, this whole think is very fluff-consistent, and even more so if you add in those Ruathar levels.
#8 unundindur Dec 09, 2008 6:44:42	How could I forget the most awesome of them all: Jade Phoenix Mage from tome of battle. That turns out to something like this: Warblade1/Conjurer5/JPM2/Abjurant Champion5/JPM7 If you ever hit epic, you finish JMP and take a level of monk (and the carmendine monk feat)
#9 kurashu Dec 09, 2008 6:48:00	Geomancer with the southern magician feat is a decent sub for sacred exorcist.
#10 pithica Dec 09, 2008 8:20:41	Taking the otherworldly feat doesn't increase your BAB that way. Only the racial hit-dice of an outsider get the full bab, monk saves, and 8+int skill points/level.
#11 unundindur Dec 09, 2008 8:41:30	Its not related to BaB, as Eldritch thurge don't have a BaB requirement. Its related to martial weapon proficiency, and beeing a native outsider gives you proficiency with all martial weapons (for some odd reason). This is also confirmed by customer service, though I don't have the reference now.
#12 pithica Dec 09, 2008 8:43:57	You're right...My bad...I didn't see the EK levels in front of the Abjurant Champ levels and thought you were using it to up the BAB of Wiz. Sorry for the inconvenience, we now return you to your regularly scheduled program, and this time we promise that people on cold medication will not interrupt.
#13 feloniousela Dec 09, 2008 16:35:57	Here is a link to the Knight Phantom, which is essentially an Eldritch Knight that gains actual abilities...and a little bit better HD. Knight Phantom from Five Nations Eberron book. I could be wrong, but I feel like the Ravenloft class referred to progresses clerical casting? I am not sure on that though. I know Carnivore used it in a cool Glaivelock build a while back, but I lost the link to that thread. Edit: Knight of the Raven is a divine casting PrC from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. It is really pretty nice.
#14 the_shaman Dec 10, 2008 3:29:21	Other PrCs exist to allow me 16+ BAB and L9 spells by L20; however, what classes besides Sacred Exorcist exist to progress wizardly casting for their first 4 levels while offering at least 3/4 BAB? Hmm... Ruathar gives 3/3 and medium BAB, but the 2 that come to mind and have more than 4 levels - Evereskan Tomb Guardian from PGtF and Master of the Yuirwood from Unapproachable East - both iirc require you to be an elf.
#15 unundindur Dec 10, 2008 3:45:23	I have always dreamed of using that crazy fochulan lyrist beast, but I haven ot found a way to effectively foil the incredible requirements (not often you need 3 classes to enter...). You can also get funny if you use sublime chord and multiclass into abjurant champion etc afterwards...