Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Unbalanced_fly Jun 04, 2013 22:45:46	Just and idea that popped into my head on my way to work this morning and since I haven't been doing any D&D stuff for the past few months I'm a bit rusty on my knowledge. Thri-Kreen have 4 arms, yeah? Would it be possible to make them an effective dual bow wielding archery beast?? Any other races that could do this? What feats would be required to make them an efficient archer (with both hands)? I'm thinking a pretty heavy feat cost, so best bet would just be to go fighter with an archery focus?? If optimizing any chance of adding in some Arcane Archer abilities? Anybody keen on drawing me up a rough build for me? ... That is of course providing its possible.
#2 StevenO Jun 04, 2013 23:00:23	Although the rules technically may allow a four armed character to "dual wield" bows I know it is something I wouldn't allow because of how bows work.  A sad truth is that few two-handed weapons really should work "dual wielded"  unless a character can wield one in front and one in back.  To me the would be too much arm crossing/interference to make it possible to wield two big weapons along the same facing. Now two crossbows I would be far more willing to accept for dual wielding.  Normally you can fire them with one hand (at a significant penalty of course) although reloading requires two.  Rapid reload would make it possible to fire light crossbows as quickly as bows.
#3 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 05, 2013 1:02:57	Although the rules technically may allow a four armed character to "dual wield" bows I know it is something I wouldn't allow because of how bows work.  A sad truth is that few two-handed weapons really should work "dual wielded"  unless a character can wield one in front and one in back.  To me the would be too much arm crossing/interference to make it possible to wield two big weapons along the same facing. You do gain different possibilities for how to hold a weapon when you've got two arms on the same side of your body, though. The possibility of using an upper and lower arm makes me wonder whether they'd favour asymmetrical bows.
#4 piggyknowles Jun 05, 2013 8:06:26	There aren't actually many rules for dual wielding bows.  The exception is the Arrow Demon, which gets an (Ex) ability that allows them to do so, making two full attacks each round (with no penalties).  If you can use Polymorph/Metamorphosis to assume outsider form, this is by far the best way to do it.  Instead of just being an extra attack a la TWF/MWF, it's straight up doubling the number of attacks you make. I do have a build that takes advantage of this for dual wielding bows, but it's PsyWar and obviously doesn't involve Thri-Kreen.  I borrowed some tricks from the Psycarnum Warrior to add endurance and damage, and the end result is pretty solid for an archer: BUILD STUB: Neraph, Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 18 Feats: 1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves) 2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot 3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent 4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion 5. PsyWar3- 6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands) 7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity 8. PsyWar6- 9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment 10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation 11. PsyWar9- 12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity 13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation 14. PsyWar12- 15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) 16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism) 17. PsyWar15- 18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) 19. PsyWar17- Linked Power 20. PsyWar18- Powers: 1- Expansion, Metaphysical Weapon, Extend Range 2- Hustle, Psionic Scent, Damp Power 3- Greater Concealing Amorpha, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier/Telekinetic Boomerang 4- Schism, Metamorphosis, Steadfast Perception, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier 5- Empower Weapon, Oak Body, Change Fate 6- Personal Mind Blank, Dispelling Buffer, Inconstant Location Telekinetic Boomerang is there as an option if you want to act as a thrower before you become an archer.  Until you actually get Metamorphosis and can dual-wield bows, it's kind of a better option, and neraphim get some bonuses with thrown weapons.  Once Metamorphosis comes online, of course, you should drop TKB (PsyReffing it off if possible) and switch to bows. It's not anywhere near the damage of an ubercharger, but without much additional item optimization (really, just ensuring that you have two Splitting bows), you can stay well above average HP per Optimization by the Numbers.  And it has a good bit of defense and utility built in, too.
#5 daedhaed Jun 06, 2013 19:08:28	Another viable option is battle sorcerer/fighter 1/ eldritch knight/ abjurant champion/ something else for polymorphing into an arrow demon with an even better BAB.
#6 draco1119 Jun 06, 2013 19:17:11	Why Eldritch knight? It loses a caster level at 1st in exchange for a fighter bonus feat - did you mean Spellsword?
#7 StevenO Jun 06, 2013 20:00:56	If you're looking at a Battle Sorcerer I find myself agreeing with Draco that Eldritch Knight really isn't all that necessary.  I mean BS8/Ftr1/AbC5 is 14th level and +12 BAB with 13 casting.  Finishing out in EK gets us to +18 BAB and 18th-level casting (not bad actually) while adding another six level of BS gets us +16 BAB and 19th-level casting; I guess it comes out to more of a toss-up than I expected.  Of course BS15/AbC5 comes in with +16 BAB and 20th-level casting. If you're really pushing for BAB with some spellcasting I guess you could go BS4/Ftr2/AbC5/SS1/EK8 for a +19 BAB but only 16th-level spellcasting granted it is at CL 19.
#8 daedhaed Jun 06, 2013 20:31:08	Ah well. I've been out of optimizing gish characters for a while. I only play GOD and/or Batman wizards anymore.
#9 The_Fred Jun 07, 2013 8:20:35	It's simply terrible. Huge investment, awful return... Eh, to dual-wield bows as a four-armed creature you need, what, a single feat? Your main issue is that being two-handed, bows aren't light and so suffer a -4/-4 instead of the -2/-2 (I don't see it actually saying you get the light bonus when using MWF anyway but it would be sensible to get it if it applied). Compared with Rapid Shot, you don't need Point Blank Shot, and in fact, you need less Dex for Multiweapon Fighting than you do for Two-Weapon Fighting (though you'd want more anyway) so in terms of minimum investment, it's actually a lot lower (apart from being a Thri-Kreen in the first place, of course). However, you're taking a fair penalty there. If you expected to be fighting in wide open spaces, the long range might come in useful, but typically you'd be better off throwing shuriken or something (four attacks, probably at -2, instead of two at -4). Any other races that could do this? From Core: Sahuagin Mutant (ECL 5; basically a slightly-worse Thri-Kreen unless water is a big deal in your setting) Xill (ECL 9) Girallon (not typically playable... though there is Polymorphing) Marilith (as above) Special mention: Girallon's Blessing [Spell Compendium] for extra arms. Alas, dual bows are fun but not as practical, really, in most situations.
#10 The_Fred Jun 07, 2013 16:45:37	For the benefit of those reading your post, then, perhaps you should have clarified that you meant that archery specifically wasn't worth the investment. Compared with TWF, MWF is actually easier to get (low Dex req), and so requires less investment - once you already have four arms, of course. Compared with Rapid Shot, MWF to use two bows also requires less investment as it doesn't require PBS. However, it's worse (-4/-4 vs -2/-2) so in the sense that it would require some other kind of investment to reach the same or a similar level, it's arguably not... only that might be a diffent kind of investment, which you can't always equate. For example, buying a pair of +2 bows, or some (Greater) Bracers of Archery, or some other kind(s) of AB buff as opposed to spending a feat. But anyway. To use two longbows, you're going to have to find some way to be able to take that horrible AB hit. Hand Crossbows wouldn't have so big an issue, true, nor would thrown weapons (which you could use four of at once). At low levels, taking an AB hit for an extra attack is often worth it because you stand to as much as double your damage output; even using two of Flurry, TWF or Rapid Shot for three attacks at -4 can be worth it as compared with a single shot or two at -2. However, chances are a -4 penalty is going to be a bit too much. Since we're on the topic, though, I should point out the Multiheaded Template from Savage Species. More HD and LA (2 of each, for two heads) make it pretty awkward but it does allow a full attack routine with each weapon you wield; thus, you're not gaining +1 attack but doubling your attacks. Non of those attacks take any penalty, so you can use non-light weapons with impunity also. Is it worth, what, a +4 LA and 4 racial HD to be a Two-headed Thri-Kreen? I'd still rather make four full attacks in melee or with thrown weapons than two with bows even so, but it's a fun option for higher levels.
#11 The_Fred Jun 08, 2013 18:43:30	No, archery is worth the investment because it doens't completely suck. TWF isn't worth the investment because it does suck. So when you said this: Archery requires too much investment to waste feats on becoming worse. ...that was something different to this: Huge investment, awful return, it's near on the most inefficient thing you could do with a Thri-Kreen, and Thri-Kreen are pretty bad anyways. ...which was refering to TWF? Like I said, if someone is coming here looking for help and guidance, a little more explanation never goes amiss (like, saying what you're actually refering to when you say something is awful). Unless you're not actually trying to be helpful, of course.
#12 daedhaed Jun 11, 2013 17:10:15	If you're looking at a Battle Sorcerer I find myself agreeing with Draco that Eldritch Knight really isn't all that necessary.  I mean BS8/Ftr1/AbC5 is 14th level and +12 BAB with 13 casting.  Finishing out in EK gets us to +18 BAB and 18th-level casting (not bad actually) while adding another six level of BS gets us +16 BAB and 19th-level casting; I guess it comes out to more of a toss-up than I expected.  Of course BS15/AbC5 comes in with +16 BAB and 20th-level casting. If you're really pushing for BAB with some spellcasting I guess you could go BS4/Ftr2/AbC5/SS1/EK8 for a +19 BAB but only 16th-level spellcasting granted it is at CL 19.  Beings you have to be an outsider for this to even work you have proficiency with all martial weapon from the start (due to outsider type) so you don't even need to take a level outside of battle sorcerer. A build with BS7/AbC5/EK8 grant you +18 BAB and 19th-level casting. The best (and certainly the most cheesy) way to do this is to be an Elf with the otherworldly feat. After casting Draconic Polymorph to turn into an Arrow Demon, use Heroics to obtain Rapid Shot. According to RAW if one of your weapons has the Speed enhancement you can get up to 12 attacks in a round (though haste also works). If both bows have the Splitting enhancement that turns into 24 attacks a round. Each at a +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 that deal 2d8 (assuming a large Composite Greatbow) +9 (assuming +9 str rating). 3d8+11 if you enlarge yourself and use huge Greatbows. All numbers are before adding in any enhancement bonus above +1, and any other possible magic items use to boost attack bonus or damage (aka str or dex enhancers or bracers of archery with greatbow proficiency.