My basic party looks something like this:
The first character would be a Melee battlefield controller. He would primarily make it hard for enemies to do what they do best. I usually play this role as a spiked chain AoO maximizer, forcing opponents to react to him, not vice versa.
The second would be the rouge equivalent. An array of skills, special abilities and sneak attack power would give this character a more guerilla style of war. He would focus on killing the softer targets, and getting sneak attacks using the controller’s long reach.
Next is simply the support character. Stereotypically a cleric, he keeps people alive and buffed, while keeping others debuffed.
Finally would be the caster/blaster. This person usually has the highest damage output, and can often help with support and buffing. Fragile to melee, he would hide at long range or behind the controller.
Keep in mind, compared to most of you I probably rank a little above a newb with 3.5. I have been playing for about two years now and specialize on a pure fighter or a pure warlock. My suggestions above are basic and unoriginal, as is almost party I have played in. I would like something optimized, but not overpowered or using rules from obscure books or old rules. Thank you for any suggestions.
Have a Druid as your Tank. At low levels, his Companion will outperform the fighter, and at higher levels...
Have a Conjurer for your Arcanist. Battlefield control spells & summoning spells.
If you can take an Artificer, replace the rogue with him. If not, a Master Spellthief Wizard/Unseen Seer.
Clerics are also rumored to be pretty cool.
So, optimal party? Druid 20/Wizard 20/Artificer 20/Cleric 20. (I'd prestige the Wizard and the Cleric around a bit).
If the cleric specializes in Necromancy and the Wizard's a summoner, then you should pick up a cohort who's a inspire-courage specc'ed Bard and give everyone on the battlefield +12d6[sonic] to all their attacks.
Core 3.5
PH2
DMG2
All monster manuals
Complete warrior, mage, scoundrel, adventure, divine, arcane.
Exalted deeds
Vile darkness
The second would be the rouge equivalent.
Blush?
Battlefield Controller: Crusader or Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator (Tome of Battle), or possibly a Druid, depending upon player tastes.
Skillmonkey: Rogue is decent. Rogue/Unseen Seer is good. Swordsage is also decent, though less on the sneak attack. A Rogue/Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat (Comp Scoundrel) would be great on the sneak attack front, but more lacking on the skill front.
Support: Cleric or Druid, perhaps with an appropriate PrC. By no means does it need to be a "healer" though. Artificier could do this well also.
Utility Caster: Wizard with a full-caster PrC, focusing on area control spells. DO NOT SPECIALIZE ON BLASTING. Blasting is rarely anywhere near the best option available to you.
I need something to keep nasties away from the other softer characters...my experence dictates that it is a fighter, but my experience is limited.
how effective are druids in practice? Ive never played with or as one.
umm....Artificer? I thought that they weren't good for anything...
What would the caster focus on for a spell list?
Thank you for upsetting my stereotypes, my mind needs expanding.
how effective are druids in practice? Ive never played with or as one.
They start off better in melee than fighters, better at summoning than wizards, and better at (out of combat) healing than clerics.
Four levels later, their special ability kicks in.
umm....Artificer? I thought that they weren't good for anything...
Only in the sense that they're excellent at everything. There's a reason you don't see a lot of Artificer threads on the CO boards. It's not because they're not optimal. It's because, if we included Artificers in our discussions, the discussions would end right afterwards.
They can cast *any spell* off *any spell list* without the DM letting them learn it first (as an Archivist needs), and make *any magic item*, often *for free*.
Ok...
So one member of the party will be an artificer.
I still need convincing on the druid.
My (old) favorite class was the fighter...Simply because of the feat options they have. I have looked up some threads on better spiked chain fighters, and to me they seem awesome. Individually, without constant magical supervision, a fighter is not the best. But with his feat selection, I think a fighter will help make the whole of the party greater than the pieces.
I am also looking for some synergies, does anyone know of a set of classes that work very well with each other? Once I played a tank with vexing flanker, and the party rogue wanted to have my babies (not literally).
Assuming no, here's an idea, synergy-wise:
4-member party, 3 classes max:
Spellthief 1/Wizard 9/Ultimate Magus 10
Wizard 3/Master Conjurer 10/Malconvoker 7,
Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5/Fist of Raziel 10,
Druid 20
Low Level Synergies:
Druid's Animal Companion & the Cleric stand up front. Spellthief sneak attacks with blasting spells, summoner drops hastes and either uses transposition spells or summons additional creatures, druid throws out summons round 1 then spams mass snake's swiftness so the entire party (and all summoned monsters) get an additional action on the Druid's initiative count.
I mean, if you want in depth tactical analyses of party roles, I think it' might be better to start with a specific goal. There's a great thread out there optimizing a party for stacking fear effects - multiple PCs working in conjunction to adjust opponents to Cowering ASAP. So, you could ask for Party synergies w/r/t Leading an Army of Terrifying Undead!!!! or Party Synergies for Peacefully Resolving Conflict Through Nonviolence and Basketweaving.
Without one, the best I can come up with is "At first level, this party will walk all over CR1 threats. That will continue to be true as the party levels."
Here's what someone explained to me, by the way, about Fighters as compared to spellcasters in general, and Druids in particular:
Fighters get a lot of feats. They have a lot of options, and a lot of books out there broaden the range of options, so they have lots and lots of feats to choose from. Druids don't choose. Anytime a druid spell is published, they know it. Any time a new monster is published, they can turn into it. (Well, HD and monster type permitting)
Basically, spellcasters can wake up one morning and decide "I want to make the fighter cry today." They prepare Divine Power, Deity's Favor, Greater Mighty Whallop, &c. And the fighter weeps.
But the next day, they can wake up and say "No, I feel bad for the fighter. Today I'm going to make the bard cry." And suddenly they're all extend-spell-buff this, polymorph other that, and the bard's +1/+1 morale bonus is kind of a forgotten toy looking sad and ignored.
While the idea of providing a tactical buffer via Reach Weapon AoOs and trip attacks is compelling, I swear: it is nigh-impossible for a Fighter to be more of a help to his party than a Druid.
Which isn't to say that you can't play one, or that Fighters are teh suxx0r or anything. Just, if you post on the CO board and ask for an "optimized" party, you're not going to see a Fighter 20 in it.
The "Rogueish" character, IMHO, is best as a 4 rogue/ 4 bard/ 12 ranger, or you can replace the 4 in bard with 4 more in rogue. This way, he has a BaB of 18, so he can hold his own in combat, he can use his rogue skills to break-and-enter, his bard skills to find info (on someone he's assigned to kill, something he wants to steal, etc.), and his ranger skills for combat. Also, he can be protected by the barbarian's reach weapon while he picks off enemies from a distance with his bow/dart.
The frail spellcaster is best as a 15th wizard/ 5th archmage, or, if you aren't looking for extraordinarily powerful spells, a 10th-wizard/10th-sorcerer, so that he gets a LOT of spells per day.
The "cleric" character is best as a druid, since druids can also cast healing spells.
NOTE: You can also replace the last two with 5th-sorcerer/5th-cleric/10th-mystic theurge.
Here is how they should be arranged:
Barbarian in front
Rogue beside barbarian, using ranged weapons
Druid/ Mystic Theurge beside barbarian, casting divine spells to keep him healed
Wizard/ Mystic Theurge in back, casting arcane spells to keep the enemies at bay.
NOTE: You can also replace the last two with 5th-sorcerer/5th-cleric/10th-mystic theurge.
Here is how they should be arranged:
Barbarian in front
Rogue beside barbarian, using ranged weapons
Druid/ Mystic Theurge beside barbarian, casting divine spells to keep him healed
Wizard/ Mystic Theurge in back, casting arcane spells to keep the enemies at bay.
Did you just suggest mystic theurges as being best for an optimized party?
As far as druid vs. fighter, it's an extremely old argument that goes round and round. I think most people would give the druid the advantage, except for a stubborn few. Go look at this thread for one "comparison": http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-808935
Here is another one: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-879317
A Spellthief (or rogue) 1/Wizard/Unseen Seer can be the arcanist, scout, and trapspringer. I'll agree on druid 20 for the "tank". You definitely want at least one cleric in there. For the fourth slot, you could use just about anything. I'd suggest another caster of some kind over a fighter type, though.
Depending on your play preferences, this kind of party could be sneaky, scouting and them ambushing enemies; or "in your face" melee types, with the arcanist acting as battlefield control and everyone else ganging up on the enemies and beating them down.
beguiler19/mindbender1
focused conjurer5/masterspecialist10/archmage5
cleric6/radiantservantofpelor10/sacredexorcist4
druid 20
Spellthief 1/beguiler18/mindbender1
focused conjurer5/masterspecialist10/archmage5
cleric6/radiantservantofpelor6/sacredexorcist 8
how i would adjust it
:D
Did you just suggest mystic theurges as being best for an optimized party?
It wouldn't have been so painful if it had Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord, but...as it stands, it makes me want to poke my eyes out with a searing hot poker that was heated in burning flames that burn.
Conjurer 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 (or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or maybe some Mindbender/Master Specialist/Fatespinner/Archmage (Unseen Seer?) build when feeling merciful)
Artificer 20 (or Factotum 20 or Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/X 4 if Artificer isn't allowed - Factotum still makes for a solid monkey and does a lot of other stuff; no Wizard, but Wizard 19 next to Wizard 20 tends to be sad to play)
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 10/X 1 (Fist of Raziel isn't a horrible idea either, but I'll take one extra caster level over full BAB any day)
Druid 20 (Or Planar Shepherd. Heh.)
Would be plenty good. Artificer is the best trapfinder while also doubling as a caster and more importantly, halving party's equipment costs. Out of those, the Wizard, the Druid and the Artificer are all fully capable of carrying a few helpers around at all times, and the Ordained Champion is more than able in melee. Now, a full caster would ultimately be more optimal, but early on the martial excellence of Ordained Champion is very welcome. The extra feats go a long way. As a cool feature, every character of the party is awesome on their own right (duh), but more importantly, they (well, besides Druid anyways) are first and foremost team players, making the whole team all the stronger (while Druid just contributes two characters front of meatshield + spells, so that isn't bad either). Artificer makes the Magic Items much stronger for the party as they're all very cheap, Wizard basically enhances others by crippling opponents and buffing and Cleric has mass buffs to boost the party, summons and all that.
As a bonus, the whole party is completely Epic-ready. I may just like Ordained Champions a bit too much. Hmm, now that I think about it, Ruby Knight Windicator and infinite Swift Actions sounds pretty nice too. So maybe Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/stuff 5 instead. The Cleric-build is certainly most out there, the others are relatively simplistically easy.
Ps. my dm has a limit on a maximum of three classes for multiclassing, and I am only allowed to use:
Core 3.5
PH2
DMG2
All monster manuals
Complete warrior, mage, scoundrel, adventure, divine, arcane.
Exalted deeds
Vile darkness
- Druid 20 focusing on wild shape
- Druid 20 focusing on summoning
- Druid 20 focusing on spellcasting
- Ninja 1/Druid 19 maxing disable device/search for traps, although not actually needed. Without able learner you need to spend 2 ranks to each skill to max it out.
4 animal companions, 4 summons and spellcasting will end most fights without even scratching you :P.
A Cleric's main job is to heal, so for that purpose I suggest having a Healer in the party (Complete Adventurer). Have him negate every attack the enemy makes reactively :D
The above spellcaster suggestion of Wizard 10 Sorc 10 is pretty good, but he forgot to mention that using the Half Dragon template is pretty good, since it boosts your charisma. If templates arent available, try going into the Dragon Disciple prestige class (Races of the Dragon).
Also another myth- DnD is about killing monsters, not disabling traps. Hire a rogue in town. You can find them in the rogue guild. I'd instead replace the rogue's part with a Warmage/Barbarian (which fits thematically- think of him like Dr. Manhattan, so angry that he blasts things up!) (By the way, Warmage is from Tome of Magic) Warmages do tons of damage.
Also, the same guy suggested Barbarian 20. I disagree. Think about this- A fighter with two weapon fighting, oversized two weapon fighting, monkey grip and Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword. Can you imagine the pain this guy will bring? For added bonus, name him Cloud Sephiroth (Dragon Quest IV).
Well since I'm posting anyways I suppose I might as well give a suggestion. I'll toss one out a bit more towards the nasty end, simply because practically speaking most of the other parties would work fine.
Cleric of Mystra 5/ Dweomerkeeper 10/Divine Disciple 5 (Also known as the Cheater of Mystra. Probably more accurately "Make your DM and melee players cry")
Artificer 20
Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/X 5 (Maybe Warshaper. You could call the Planar shepherd the most obvious way to "Win" D&D. You want to have ten turns to your enemies one, or infinite wishes? We can do that.)
Focused Illusionist 6/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 9 (What? You don't want to cast ridiculously powerful spells like Wish as if they had the same casting time and material costs as a simple illusion spell? I don't believe you.)
Ok as amusing as that was to write up, please don't take my suggestions seriously. Your DM would probably give you a concussion from hurling books at you right before your fellow players broke every bone in your body.
I just realized that nobody really answered to you about the Fighter-question. Fact is that while Spiked Chain Fighter actually has a role in the party, he can still only do one, two things well (damage and battlefield control, generally). A Large Wildshaped Druid can be built to have just as good battlefield control, as can his companion. Cleric can easily pick up Spiked Chain and use his buffs to be a comparable battlefield controller, and Wizard specializes in limiting opponent's options with his spells (an option open to Druids and Clerics too).
Fighters are more specialized in martial control, but all the casters can do control (and Artificer can do everything other casters can and then some). That's why you don't need a Fighter - you can play one, and you can even contribute if you build it well, but you're still better off playing a caster. Those books don't allow Artificers, obviously (nor Ordained Champion), so I suppose you'll just have to go with oldschool caster options.
- The builder doesn't know much about Druids.
- The builder has access to many, MANY feats and knows how to choose them.
Fighter is an anomaly in D&D. He is the most versatile melee class in the game when built by an experienced player. That is only because of the variety of feat choice available. Many newbies gravitate toward the Fighter because of the simplicity (often sticking with core feats). Unfortunately, such build are typically very weak. When it comes to optimization, the Fighter begs for the hands of an experienced player.
Your short list of allowed books might gimp a Fighter build.
Feats worthless :P
Anyway, i don't want to begin another flame, but even with great feats, you just can't beat the versatility of spells, even core ones.
Anyway, i don't want to begin another flame, but even with great feats, you just can't beat the versatility of spells, even core ones.
No argument there. I was talking about the role of a primary meleer. Obviously, the Druid does a better job at casting than a Fighter. :P
Depends. A fighter can't trample or grapple with druid's skill. Also druids make excelent tanks with loads of natural armor. You can even make a competent charger or tripper.
You're preachin' to the choir, buddy. Reread my first post:
Fighter 20 vs. Druid 20? At maximum optimized potential, Druid will be better.
Bard w/ Requiem, Lyre of Lowering Turn Resistance, optimized Inspire Courage.
Uttercold Assault Wizard (My spells do negative energy damage which heals undead)
Cleric 20 Necromancer.
Something something /Bone Knight 10
Me- I previously always played the fighter, now I am more looking to play an offensive spell caster (I read the being a god handbook, and being a god sounds fun). Any suggestions on god classes? (God is in magic power, I would like to avoid really cheesy things and keep the dm from killing me)
Brandon- "Sneaky things...rogue, assassins, ninjas. Things that kill you before you realize your dead" After laughing I interpreted this as classes that capitalize on sneak attack damages and "skill monkeying".
Isaac-"anything" He has played drunken brawlers, barbarian-wizards and half demon monks. By anything I think he means "anything unusual".
Ann- She is new to the group, and when I asked her she simply said "droods"(druid). I think her class is decided.
Here is an update for the books:
Player's Handbook 1, 2
Dungeon Master's Guide 1, 2
Monster Manual 1, 2, 3, 4
Complete Adventure, Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Mage, and Scoundrel.
Spell compendium.
Update for rules:
Any standard player race.
Limit on three different classes/prestige classes for multiclassing.
Standard wealth by level.
Starting at Level 5
I’m fairly new to this whole thread thing, (first started thread, and not a complete disaster! woooo! :D )I’ve been forced to think out side of the standard fighter, rog, wiz, cleric box. Thank you very much for that. And thank you very much for the help.
For Brandon I recommend:
Spellthief 1 /Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 10 / Wizard 5
Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage and Spellthief's in Complete Adventurer. The feat that makes it great is Master Spellthief (Complete Mage) - Spellthief & Wizard levels stack for spell theft and caster level, and you can cast in light armor. He can't take the feat until Level 6, though.
Race: Human (For the skill points).
Spellthief gives Sneak Attack & Trapfinding, Unseen Seer advances Casting & Sneak Attack. He's going to be strapped for skill points without the feat Able Learner (Races of Destiny) for a couple of levels, but it will work out & is a really fun concept.
A Reserve Feat from Complete Mage (e.g., Acid Splash) would give him a constant attack, and some nice direct damage spells (e.g., Scorching Ray) are good, too.
Ann: Druid 1/Monk 1/Druid 18. Without Substitution Levels from the Races Of XXX books, go human. Monk 1 gives you Improved Unarmed Strike *and* lets you count your unarmed strikes as natural attacks. When you pick up Multiattack, here's what you get: (1) Iterative Attacks (Knee, Headbutt, Elbow), followed up by (2) Your Natural Attack Routine from Wildshape, all at a -2 to hit.
Feats: Multiattack (H) Companion Spellbond (1), Natural Bond (3), Natural Spell (6).
Animal Companion (At lv. 1): Watrained Riding Dog. (At lv. 4): Fleshraker from MMII. Ask the DM if Natural Bond reduces the penalty to Effective Druid Level from taking a better companion. If not, drop Spellbond & Natural Bond and take Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augmented Summoning.
Isaac: Cleric (Anything - just keep the Caster Level as high as possible).
You: Focused Conjurer 3/ Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 7/ Master Specialist 8.
-----
(Edit note: the following not really applicable to the constraints (max 3 classes) )
Wizard (&/or Master Specialist) 5/ Malconvoker 5/ Demonbinder 1/ Ultimate Magus 9.
It's got some amazing stuff going for it.
Quick explanation:
Malconvoker - (See Thread: Mastering the Malconvoker) PrC in Complete Scoundrel. Use free action Bluffs to trick Evil Outsiders into thinking you're on their side. Automatic Doubling Duration, Stat Boosts, and eventually free Twin Summonses.
Nar Demonbinder - Spontaneous Casting PrC, gives 4th-8th lv spells. 7 levels long. Focused on Binding Demons. 1st lv give Inimical Casting (change alignment descriptor on a bunch of spells) & an imp or a quasit familiar. Spell list complements Wizard v. well - includes Flame Strike & Blasphemy (as well as all alignment variations thereof) - due to the way the demonbinder's caster level is determined, it's an AMAZING lead in to ultimate magus.
Ultimate Magus - PrC that simultaneously advances 1 spontaneous and 1 prepared spellcasting class. If you lead in with Demonbinder 2, you get Wizard Advancement at 8/8 levels and Demonbinder advancement at 5/8 (Demonbinder only has 8 levels) - you end up with 20th CL Wizard (17th lv Spells) and 20th CL Demonbinder (8th lv spells).
You get 3 fewer 9th level, 2 fewer 8th lv and 1 fewer 7th lv spell/day. (50 spell lvs)
You gain (assuming min. charisma of 18):5 4th, 4 5th, 3 6th, 2 7th and 1 8th lv Demonbinder Spells (80 spell levels)
So you get to cast a *lot* more spells, but fewer high level ones.
My idea:
me-Ether a ultimate magus build or a "Focused Conjurer 3/ Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 7/ Master Specialist 8", the only books I own are complete equipment and the 3.5 core trio. Can anyone explain what that does?
Ann-a druid with a dip into monk
Isaac said he will play a cleric and something that helps cleric spell levels but is different somehow. I forgot what it was.
I haven’t talked to Brandon yet, when I do I will convey the info.
Here's the skinny:
Focused Specialist - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953100
Conjurer - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918686
Malconvoker - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918792
Master Specialist 7 - +CL to HP on all summons. +1 CL. +2 spells known (woo.) +5 DC to dispel your summons. Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration). Skill Focus (Spellcraft). (It's not that great, but you have Spell Focus (Conjuration) already, and it beats the Level 5 Conjurer Ability.
Um. Hang on, I forgot - can you use the Unearthed Arcana variant specialists from the SRD? Essentially, you give up your Familiar for Standard Action Summonses and your Bonus Feat for Augment Summoning.
If not... summoning might not be the best build.
You'll still have Scribe Scroll. No swapping that.
A Focused Specialist Conjurer is still a good start. Not so sure about the Master Specialist/Malconvoker stuff, though.
Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist X/Contemplative X
Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10
Artificer 20
Wizard X/Incantrix 10/Any other fullcasting PrC X
By "potential", I mean these guys can pretty much accomplish all the necessary tasks you outlined either on their own, or with each other's help. This is about as good as practical optimization gets. Assumptions are that PrCs aren't campaign specific, the Archivist has access to the divine texts he needs to scribe spells, and the Artificer has the necessary time/resources to craft items. Everyone in the party is capable of summoning creatures to do the dirty work for them, the Archivist can cast any divine spell and can take a feat to let him spontaneously cast healing/harm spells as needed like a real cleric, and the Artificer can take care of the "rogue" duties (who needs sneak attack when you can wand blast for ridiculous damage?)
"Practical" party:
Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator
The "Daring Swordsage"
Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist X/Contemplate X (alternately, some kind of Cloistered Cleric can work too, but with less potential versatility)
Wizard/Incantrix/X
This is more likely to be acceptable in real play. The Crusader can do the battlefield control well with thicket of blades and spiked chain goodness, and gets DMM casting/extra turns as well. The Daring Swordsage (a build somewhere on the board) can do the rogue tasks and still fight quite well. The rest is pretty straightforward.
Edit: Doh! A lot of this stuff is from books that you didn't list, like the Tome of Battle stuff and the Archivist.
The synergy would have been pretty crazy though. White Raven stuff between a Crusader and Swordsage can be pretty mean. The Archivist's Dread Secret ability can stun targets for the swordsage to pick off too.
Should I go focused specialist conjurer, or are their any dips worth taking along the way? Is ultimate magus worth considering? what about (arcane master? the 5 level on in the dmg that lets you choose enery type and spell shaping, etc.)?
If you want a ultimate magus build go beguiler1/conjurer3/spellthief1/UM10/mindbender1/unseenseer4