My goal is to generate the most individual, granted attacks in a single action (full round in this case, but still, only one action used). No manuevers, no multi-pouncing, no fusion, no infinites, no arbitrary numbers, no extra actions, no clone or cohort attacks. Just one character making as many granted attacks as I can squeeze into one single action.
The idea is for a Dragonwrought Kobold to use her Psion Cohort and his Red Wizard Cohort to True Mind Switch with a heavily templated beast.
By using Circle Magic the Red Wizard gets his CL up to a minimum of 36 (Lizoctataur's HD). He then uses Mental Pinnacle to turn it all to ML, and the Psion manifests Metaconcert so that his True Mind Switch power has access to the raised ML.
The Lizoctatauris summoned with a CL 22 scroll of Gate (it's an outsider after all!). If Gate calling templated, non-unique creatures works, it is ordered to fail it's save. If a unique creature must be called, an Elder Evil worshipping soulless brain sucking Dragonwrought Kobold/Illithid should be tempting enough for it to show. In this case, in the round before the scroll is used, the Metaconcert casts Linked My Light and True Mind Switch. After the sroll is used and the Marilith appears, the True Mind Switch is manifested, and the high ML assures it will bypass Will Save.
True Mind Switch is then cast again on the Kobold/Illithid, putting her in the Lizoctataur's body.
Lizardfolk Templates:
Show
Half-Illithid - gains 4 tentacles on head
Obah-Blessed (4 arms)
Aberrant Limbs(arms)
Half-Ogre - considered a Giant as well as base creature (let's us make other abuses)
Half-Golem (flesh)
Incarnate Construct - brings us back to humanoid
Half-Illithid - gains 4 tentacles on head
Obah-Blessed (4 arms)
Aberrant Limbs(arms)
Half-Ogre - considered a Giant as well as base creature (let's us make other abuses)
Half-Golem (flesh)
Incarnate Construct - brings us back to humanoid
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.
Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.
A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.
A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).
Use whirling frenzy barbarian variant from UA.
How did I miss that?
When I cleared up the drow levels (cause for forever I forgot about the lesser drow), I just jumped on the Lion Totem for pounce...
Good thing they aren't exclusive... ;)
Changing now. Thanks for the tip!
Speed weapon doesn't stack with Haste.
Indeed. That's why I list +1 from Haste or one speed weapon.
Cresent knifes aren't official material (as someone said to me just in this board)...
Actually, they are, but Dragon is looked down upon a lot (much of it is pretty unbalanced), and that's why I listed them last.
Even without them, I haven't seen anyone else with this number of pure attacks (211) in a single full attack.
Even without them, I haven't seen anyone else with this number of pure attacks (211) in a single full attack.
I'm sure that with avalanch of blades and blood in the water abuse one could theoretically get more. Chuck cheats though, so let's not consider chuck.
I'm sure that with avalanch of blades and blood in the water abuse one could theoretically get more. Chuck cheats though, so let's not consider chuck.
AoB and Chuck both rely on manuevers to meet conditions for granting additional attacks.
This is pure number of attacks available... A very different goal, and why the higehst I could get is so small relative to things like Chuck and AoB touch attacks.
AoB and Chuck both rely on manuevers to meet conditions for granting additional attacks.
This is pure number of attacks available... A very different goal, and why the higehst I could get is so small relative to things like Chuck and AoB touch attacks.
Ah. Thanks for explaining that.
Sorry that all I can do is criticise. It's a nice build with a few good tricks.
Warrior 1 doesn't grant a bonus feat, unless you use the UA "generic classes" warrior, who is part of a different system and shouldn't be used in a non-generic build. If you can sack another point of BAB without losing an attack, Feat Rogue (UA) lets you keep Snap Kick. It's only one attack, but it's nice to be there. Also, Snap Kick has to be unarmed, so it can't be doubled by the knives, even if you get the feat in.
Sorry that all I can do is criticise. It's a nice build with a few good tricks.
Ah... Yea, I had forgotten that 'generic' classes should only be used when all classes are such... With a 17 BAB I can sack it for Feat Rogue, and knock off the doubled Snap Kick (oversights ftl).
I'm actually amazed this has held up so well this far... I tend to make glaring mistakes whenever I try things like this.
Though now I'd like to get at least 3 more attacks (pre-thousand cuts), to get the total above 400 again... Would armor spikes do it?
@EjoThims: Spiked Armor would add another 3 GMWF attacks, but again wouldn't be doubled by the knives. That gets you to 401. Also, consider moving your Weapon Focus to Crescent Knife, to help offset the pretty steep penalties you'll be facing.
@CrimsonDeath: The whole point is a build without using maneuvers; otherwise Chuck wins easily.
I thought the point was to get a large number of actual melee attacks. Tornado Throw gives you trip attempts, but Dancing Mongoose gives you extra normal attacks.
@CrimsonDeath: The whole point is a build without using maneuvers; otherwise Chuck wins easily.
Correct, as even if you ignore the attacks from the manuever, Imp Trip on Chuck beats everything.
@EjoThims: Spiked Armor would add another 3 GMWF attacks, but again wouldn't be doubled by the knives. That gets you to 401. Also, consider moving your Weapon Focus to Crescent Knife, to help offset the pretty steep penalties you'll be facing.
Good, I wasn't sure how Armor Spikes interacted with multiple off-hands. And the Weapon Focus hasn't been changed yet because I don't remember if Crescent Knives are exotic or not.
And hrmmm... Seems last time I counted I messed something up. If anyone would like to double check the actual number of attacks math, I'd appreciate it. Relatively sure the current total is spot on though. :D
Have you used any of the hidden weapons from Complete Scoundrel? I'm not sure if the rules allow it, but that could be another attack from every arm, couldn't it?
While they would allow me to strap an extra weapon to each arm, they wouldn't allow extra attacks, as that arm has already been used for an attack sequence, and the weapons don't specifically grant any extras.
Main Hand Attacks: ((12*4(BAB)+1(frenzy))*2(TC)+1(Haste))*2(Knife) = 198
Off Hand Knife Attacks: 14*3*2*2 = 168
Off Hand Spike Attacks: 3*2 = 6
Off Hand Natural Attacks: (12(gore)+1(Slap)+1(Snap Kick))*2(TC) = 28
Total: 400. Spot on.
Rules Note: Circle Magic caps the leader's CL at 40. This may present a problem with grabbing that big a marilith. Still, if you can get the non-specific summon trick, you don't need to worry about SR.
a weapon from Dragon Magazine called a "braid blade"
Anyone have specifics on this? Especially as to how it would interact with already making gore attacks?
I crunched the numbers...
Main Hand Attacks: ((12*4(BAB)+1(frenzy))*2(TC)+1(Haste))*2(Knife) = 198
Off Hand Knife Attacks: 14*3*2*2 = 168
Off Hand Spike Attacks: 3*2 = 6
Off Hand Natural Attacks: (12(gore)+1(Slap)+1(Snap Kick))*2(TC) = 28
Total: 400. Spot on.
Rules Note: Circle Magic caps the leader's CL at 40. This may present a problem with grabbing that big a marilith. Still, if you can get the non-specific summon trick, you don't need to worry about SR.
Thanks for doule checking those numbers for me.
As for Circle Magic, I got the trick from this thread ( http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13732681 ), and by the reading it seemed that Circle Magic adds a max of 40 to your CL?
If not the Mage still has plenty of room for shenanigans to up it further again, and even with a non-specific summon, the Marilith's SR and will saves for the HD don't scale well enough to really pose an issue.
Anyone have specifics on this? Especially as to how it would interact with already making gore attacks?
Braid blades win, because each one unconditionally grants you an attack with it. So you can have as many as you carry, and get an attack with each one.
Braid blades win, because each one unconditionally grants you an attack with it. So you can have as many as you carry, and get an attack with each one.
So they limit your number of attacks only by how much you can carry? I may have to look into applying Hulking Hurler style carry capacity to using them...
But for this exercise I think I'm just going to look the other way, unless someone has some kind of Sage advice or Custserv ruling laying around that makes them a little more reasonable.
I crunched the numbers...
Main Hand Attacks: ((12*4(BAB)+1(frenzy))*2(TC)+1(Haste))*2(Knife) = 198
Off Hand Knife Attacks: 14*3*2*2 = 168
Off Hand Spike Attacks: 3*2 = 6
Off Hand Natural Attacks: (12(gore)+1(Slap)+1(Snap Kick))*2(TC) = 28
Total: 400. Spot on.
Rules Note: Circle Magic caps the leader's CL at 40. This may present a problem with grabbing that big a marilith. Still, if you can get the non-specific summon trick, you don't need to worry about SR.
Why doesn't this trick follow the standard rule about multipliers on page 304 of the Phb?
Following the rules in the Phb, wouldn't your example above of 14*3*2*2 actually be 14*(3+1+1=5)?
Sorry, no whirling frenzy brabrian.
Put one braid blade in then, to offset the loss.
Why doesn't this trick follow the standard rule about multipliers on page 304 of the Phb?
Because technically, the attacks aren't being multiplied by the rules. Some attacks are being added, and some attacks count as two attacks at once. Callix is multiplying them for simplicity's sake, because mathematically, multiplication is the same as adding something repeatedly. The only actual multiplication going on (from a game mechanics point of view) is with A Thousand Cuts, which is a single doubling.
Dang. You can't use Dervish Dance with any kind of rage or frenzy.
Dervish Dance also doesn't grant an extra attack, so there's no reason to use it in the round when you're trying to get maximum attacks. Also, unless you can manage a speed of 1000', you wouldn't be able to make all your attacks during a Dervish Dance anyway. Note that Dervish Dance is not required for A Thousand Cuts.
Note that Dervish Dance is not required for A Thousand Cuts.
Exactly.
Following the rules in the Phb, wouldn't your example above of 14*3*2*2 actually be 14*(3+1+1=5)?
Because it's 14 sources each with 3 attacks, and thousand cuts gives twice that number, while crescent knives make each generated attack cause two seperate attacks.
Stacking multiplier ruless just don't apply to the situation.
Still, it's a neat trick even if you did use Dragon material. Kudos.
Dervish Dance also doesn't grant an extra attack, so there's no reason to use it in the round when you're trying to get maximum attacks. Also, unless you can manage a speed of 1000', you wouldn't be able to make all your attacks during a Dervish Dance anyway. Note that Dervish Dance is not required for A Thousand Cuts.
Woot. I was wrong and it's the first time I'm happy about it. :P
I would think that the stacking multipliers rule would be universal.
Still, it's a neat trick even if you did use Dragon material. Kudos.
Technically, the multiplier stacking rules only apply to abstract D&D concepts like damage. With something like "range increment distance", since it is a distance, multipliers are used normally as per arithmetic. For example, Far Shot and a Distance weapon give 3*Range Increment, not 2.5*~. "Number of times you can whack someone in six seconds", as an observable, integer number, may well use arithmetic multipliers anyway.
Even so, the *3 is for iteratives, and the final *2 is for the knives, which allow you to resolve each attack as two attacks. Thus, there is only the one multiplier of *2, A Thousand Cuts.
On the more general topic, maybe we should keep pushing until we can actually do a thousand cuts?
Technically, the multiplier stacking rules only apply to abstract D&D concepts like damage. With something like "range increment distance", since it is a distance, multipliers are used normally as per arithmetic. For example, Far Shot and a Distance weapon give 3*Range Increment, not 2.5*~. "Number of times you can whack someone in six seconds", as an observable, integer number, may well use arithmetic multipliers anyway.
Even so, the *3 is for iteratives, and the final *2 is for the knives, which allow you to resolve each attack as two attacks. Thus, there is only the one multiplier of *2, A Thousand Cuts.
On the more general topic, maybe we should keep pushing until we can actually do a thousand cuts?
Thanks for further explaining this.
On the more general topic, maybe we should keep pushing until we can actually do a thousand cuts?
I'd absolutely love that (especially if it didn't involve braid blades
), but I'm pretty much out of ideas for how to further expand this without moving into manuevers or more than the single full attack action.Can that Illithid slave template be used on Outsiders? That grants a tentacle attack from the head, yes? That'd net 24 more attacks.
Any source of wing buffet or slam attacks from templates that apply to outsiders, one level dips, or two feats (since I haven't used flaws yet) would work as well. Could Rapidstrike apply to the gores granted by the scroll?
Is there a double weapon with the crescent knife's ability? That'd let it use EWM's Flurry of Strikes...
Doubt there's room for enough Shou Disciple to use martial flurry for an additional.
Still, it's a neat trick even if you did use Dragon material. Kudos.
Thanks, I was going to avoid the Crescent Knives at first, but with all the other cheese I was pulling (summoning templated Marilith, stealing it's body, and then binding another Marilith into it... the flavor of which makes me absolutely giddy btw), I decided to just go all out.
:D
And I truly appreciate and am marveled by the interest and help involved in this. I figured everyone would be more dismissive since it's conditions are so limited and it's so far behind even some of the old round of attacks record.
1. Using Monk at level 18 (delaying Dervish 10
) instead of Feat Rogue keeps Snap Kick, but also adds an off-hand unarmed strike and Flurry of Blows. There's another eight attacks. Hard to mix in with Barbarian, but I'm sure I heard of a Chaos Monk variant somewhere.2. Arms of Plenty (LoM) adds another pair of arms with primary claw attacks. Thanks to A Thousand Cuts, that's +4 attacks.
3. The Mohrg's Tongue graft from Libris Mortis adds another 2 attacks, although this one does no damage (touch, save vs paralysis)
Just a few pointers.
And I truly appreciate and am marveled by the interest and help involved in this. I figured everyone would be more dismissive since it's conditions are so limited and it's so far behind even some of the old round of attacks record.
Are you kidding? Mental excercises are fun for everybody. If I had the knowhow I'd be adding tons to this thread, but I don't. This is TO within a couple of parameters that haven't been done to death.
What about tentacles? You can get tentacles from quite a few templates.
We can't afford any more LA. Grafts, now....
An Aboleth Tentacle (LoM) specifically doesn't replace anything.
Anyone got any other good ones? Symbionts might work too.
Extra attack tricks:
1. Using Monk at level 18 (delaying Dervish 10
Are you refering to another off-hand progression with unarmed strikes like armor spikes? Again, I'm not sure how this meets up with MWF, but Chaos Monk is a good idea IF we had room for Shou Disciple so we could use non-monk weapons in a flurry or flail, but it still eliminates Feat Rogue, so it's switched out.
2. Arms of Plenty (LoM) adds another pair of arms with primary claw attacks. Thanks to A Thousand Cuts, that's +4 attacks.
Wonderful suggestion, and easy for our Wizard to pick up.
3. The Mohrg's Tongue graft from Libris Mortis adds another 2 attacks, although this one does no damage (touch, save vs paralysis)
All our mouths are used up with mouthpick weapons.
We can't afford any more LA. Grafts, now....
An Aboleth Tentacle (LoM) specifically doesn't replace anything.
We can add as many templates to the Marilith as we want, as long as they can be applied to outsiders. :D But I cannot find the Aboleth Tentacle graft in LoM?
Are you refering to another off-hand progression with unarmed strikes like armor spikes? Again, I'm not sure how this meets up with MWF, but Chaos Monk is a good idea IF we had room for Shou Disciple so we could use non-monk weapons in a flurry or flail, but it still eliminates Feat Rogue, so it's switched out.
Yes, I'm referring to another off-hand attack progression. Monks can always make unarmed strikes, no matter how full their hands are.
Wonderful suggestion, and easy for our Wizard to pick up.
Glad I could make you happy
All our mouths are used up with mouthpick weapons.
Darn. So much for Libris Mortis.
We can add as many templates to the Marilith as we want, as long as they can be applied to outsiders. :D But I cannot find the Aboleth Tentacle graft in LoM?
Well, let's get templating! I'll open with Voidmind.
On the graft, there isn't one. That was just my goof.
Recall, it may be problematic if we raise the Marilith's HD with any templates. (I think we need a caster level at least equal to her HD, and I'm not sure how far over we were.)
What was the last template that you saw that increased your HD? I don't think I've seen one.
Uncapped SR based off HD may be more of a problem, unless we assume non-unique but precisely templated creatures work with Gate, removing the need to beat SR.
Yes, I'm referring to another off-hand attack progression. Monks can always make unarmed strikes, no matter how full their hands are.
Ah, hokay then, though we still can't use flurry/flail to our benefit without Shou disciple levels.
Well, let's get templating! I'll open with Voidmind.
Voidmind adds a tentacle attack, yes? So that'd be 24 more attacks. Headed over now to check if it works on Outsiders. I'll also look again through my other crystal keep stuff, but I don't recall any others that add so far unused attack forms (wing buffets, etc). At least that can apply to outsiders.
Hrm... Voidmind does not work, Voidmind creatures are immune to mind-affecting, of which True Mind switch is. No templates that change type to Undead, Ooze, Plant or Construct work for the same reason.
Can a creature make both sting attacks and tail slaps in the same round?
Recall, it may be problematic if we raise the Marilith's HD with any templates. (I think we need a caster level at least equal to her HD, and I'm not sure how far over we were.)
Multi-Headed is the only template I know of that adds HD, and it's maxed already.
EDIT: Never mind. We'd need to abuse Shadow and Half-fiend to end up with a legal target. 12-headed marilith -> Shadow (Magical Beast) -> Chimeric (extra heads) -> Half-Fiend (Outsider again)
Not to mention that once something becomes on Outsider, it's type can only be changed to Undead or Constuct, but both of these types cannot be Mind Switched with. Now, an Outsider can still take on other templates it qualifies for, but it's type does not change.
For templates, what we need is something that grants either wing, slam, tentacle, or talon attacks without making her immune to mind affecting effects.
I know a template that would add a sting, but the thing is, I don't know if Stings and Tail Slaps can both be used in a round, nor if Claws and Talons can be.
Does that mean it would behoove us to have an Effigy Master create an Effigy of our heavily templated Marilith, and True Mind Switch with that? Is there even room for that in the build?
Half-Farspawn (LoM) adds two tentacles, and its SR is capped at 25. Also gives some attribute bonuses and natural armor, along with a bunch of SLA's. By putting Half-Dragon in first, we might be able to type-fix and get it.
Half-Dragon is already in, but Dragon is a lower type than Outsider, so even though the Half-Dragon template can be applied, the Marilith's type does not become Dragon, it remains as Outsider. And Outsiders cannot be targetted by Half-Farspawn.
A Construct under the effects of the Greater Humanoid Essence spell or infusion is subject to (True) Mind Switch.
Does that mean it would behoove us to have an Effigy Master create an Effigy of our heavily templated Marilith, and True Mind Switch with that? Is there even room for that in the build?
Outsiders cannot be made into Effigies, however Greater Humanoid Essence is a brilliant idea if we can find a worthwhile Construct template.
Circle Magic caps out at CL 40.
That's already been covered Tsu, as has braid blades. If the link provided earlier in the thread is incorrect, can you advise on alternate ways to reach the needed caster level?
Or perhaps newer templates or insight into how to generate more pure attacks in a single full attack action?
Half-Dragon is already in, but Dragon is a lower type than Outsider, so even though the Half-Dragon template can be applied, the Marilith's type does not become Dragon, it remains as Outsider. And Outsiders cannot be targetted by Half-Farspawn.
Okey where is this from? i dont remember reading it
The savage species type pyramid thing has been removed in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5.
The only one I can find that would reference such a thing clearly does not. So I suppose that the Savage Species type pyramid is now defunct. It always seemed a bit arbitrary to be a rule rather than a guideline, especially considering that Fiend Folio ignored it by publishing the Half-Troll template. (It can change an Outsider into a Giant; the example barbazu demonstrates exactly that.)
-How are you using a Candle of Invocation (CL 17) to Gate in a 43 HD creature? Isn't your limit with the item 34 HD? (You could always use UMD and a CL 22 scroll...)
-This needs a level of Maho-bujin. It's a fantastic PrC for people with Perfect TWF, Superior TWF, and similar abilities that expressly multiply one set of iterative attacks into many. The gist of it is that there's a class ability called Crimson Road which sets your iterative attacks to be gained at cumulative -3 penalties instead of -5 penalties. Here, that allows for two more attacks (+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1) in the base full attack sequence. Which, after explosive multipliers, grants a total of 96 extra attacks.
So if you swap out one of the Fighter levels, remove Snap Kick (the most expendable feat), and shuffle around the rest of the feats, that's a total of 504 attacks.
(The only prerequisite for Maho-bujin is a bit of taint, which is easily gained and which might actually allow for more feats. Plus, it's full-BAB.)
I was wondering if you were accepting item based extra attacks as well.
Seeing as you're being fairly strict about it my assumption was no.
What's the item/combination of items, then?
Some things:Not quite. One of the Sage answers referenced it...
The only one I can find that would reference such a thing clearly does not. So I suppose that the Savage Species type pyramid is now defunct.
<3. Everyone else just continued to post ideas without referencing anything of this sort (though I was beginning to wonder why it wasn't sinking in).
The sage advice does indeed seem to imply that the SS pyramid is out, and any applicable templates continue to change type, regardless of the previous type.
This reopens many doors, and I will have to reexamine all the previously suggested templates.
-How are you using a Candle of Invocation (CL 17) to Gate in a 43 HD creature? Isn't your limit with the item 34 HD? (You could always use UMD and a CL 22 scroll...)
If you must summon a unique creature, then CoI isn't enough and a CL 22 gate scroll will be needed. If generic templated creatures are possible, than CoI is fine. Either way, I'll change it to a scroll, since that'll be cleaner... Just have to make sure a 16th level Wizard has an int of 19.
-This needs a level of Maho-bujin. It's a fantastic PrC for people with Perfect TWF, Superior TWF, and similar abilities that expressly multiply one set of iterative attacks into many. The gist of it is that there's a class ability called Crimson Road which sets your iterative attacks to be gained at cumulative -3 penalties instead of -5 penalties. Here, that allows for two more attacks (+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1) in the base full attack sequence. Which, after explosive multipliers, grants a total of 96 extra attacks.
Where is this found? 3.0 OA, yes?
If you're gonna cast spells and manifest powers, you might as well execute manuevers..................try the same thing with one person attacking NO SPELLS, POWERS, MANUEVERS! ! ! Then I'll be impressed.............
That's already been done. And it caps out at like 50.
I was wondering if you were accepting item based extra attacks as well.
Point of limiting maneuvers is that the maneuver is one action that can generate thousands upon thousands of attacks outside of an attack sequence. And while not all maneuvers do, allowing one opens the door to the rest.
Items are okay, long as you're still within that same attack (as in not items that grant additional move or standard actions). I'm using Crescent Knives, after all, though I would like to,for already stated reasons, avoid grafts.
So, with this relevant and amazing new info, look for an update to the OP in the next few days.
Where is this found? 3.0 OA, yes?
In the back with all the other tainted stuff, yes. Though Heroes of Horror (3.5) implicitly updates it if you look in the Taint section of that book.
If you're open to using any 3.5 d20 supplements, consider Arms and Armor.
In it, there is a shield called a Bladed Buckler. It works as a buckler, but if you're proficient with it you're allowed to make a shield bash with it for 1d6 damage. It does NOT give you -1 to your attack rolls if you attack with the same hand as well.
That would let you slap on an extra 12 bucklers or so for another 12 shield bashes. I'm not sure how those would be multiplied by all the effects you're running but it's another 12 attacks minimum.
Also, there's a shield in the DMG called the Lion's Shield which allows the shield to attack as a free action 3/day. If you could slap that on your buckler's, you'd get another 12 attacks. Not a tough custom item to create by any means.
Hope either of those help.
Ok, I've got a suggestion then.
If you're open to using any 3.5 d20 supplements, consider Arms and Armor.
In it, there is a shield called a Bladed Buckler. It works as a buckler, but if you're proficient with it you're allowed to make a shield bash with it for 1d6 damage. It does NOT give you -1 to your attack rolls if you attack with the same hand as well.
Ah, a very interesting and particular exception to the buckler rules, giving a shield bash with it but never stating that a weapon also held in the same hand can't be used... This would allow 84 more attacks... 3 more attacks as off-hand sequences with each of 14 arms, doubled for thousand cuts... However... It's Bastion Press... Which, as far as I'm aware, doesn't carry the 'official' WotC status that even Dragon magazine does... Now... if you can find a WotC equivalent to the weapon that also does not stipulate the loss of other attack progressions made with the same hand wearing the buckler, then we're gravy.
Also, there's a shield in the DMG called the Lion's Shield which allows the shield to attack as a free action 3/day. If you could slap that on your buckler's, you'd get another 12 attacks. Not a tough custom item to create by any means.
Free actions are a separate action, not part of the single full attack action that's being optimized for.
84 attacks? That's worth checking all the books one more time.
Ok, I did some more digging and the best I can come up with is this.
Races of Stone pg. 155, the Gnome Tortoise blade. It says it's both a weapon AND a shield. It does not say it's a buckler, but it also does not say it's a light/heavy shield. This one is very ambiguous. Since it says it counts as a shield for the purposes of magic enhancement, you probably can get the Bashing property put on it.
Except it does not specifically say it is a Light/Heavy shield. Then again, it doesn't say it's a buckler and therefore is not allowed a bash.
Thing that sucks about it is that it requires an Exotic Weapon Proficient to use, and I'm sure you're tight on feats.
Best I could do.
It took me a lot of digging to find even that obscure item.
84 attacks? That's worth checking all the books one more time.
I've checked all my stuff several times for this idea, and every now and then I find something new that I missed earlier (like Tail Scythe from Serpent Kingdoms, I had originally overlooked it thinking it was identical to the tail blade from SS).
In any case, Complete Scoundrel mentions multiple types of hidden blades. There are boot blades (as dagger), elbow blades (as punching dagger), knee blades (as short sword), and sleeve blades (as dagger). All can essentially function in addition to regular handheld weapons; even sleeve blades are above your hands, similar to Wolverine's claws.
If it's a light or heavy shield it can have the Bashing magical quality. Bucklers cannot have that property - but although it says the two items from RoS are shields, it does not say they are specifically bucklers.
The reason I went with the Gnome item instead of the Dwarf item, was that *Buckler* is within the dwarven weapon's title so I kinda disqualified that.
I think I have solved this using the SRD.
"For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon."
Now, since these 2 weapons are unique in the fact that they count as shields/weapons at the same time, I don't think it's a logic leap to follow this assumption.
Since they are both light weapons, the shield portion is therefore a light shield and not a heavy shield, because it would be odd to have an integrated weapon/shield operating as a light weapon for offense and SOMEHOW operate as a heavy shield for defense - in which case the shield portion would act as a one-handed weapon instead of a light weapon.
How could the item which in and of itself is a light weapon act as a one-handed weapon? Definitely impossible, so that opens up shield bashing.
Next, consider that since a buckler cannot be used to bash, it cannot be a weapon, just like this weapon/shield is. Therefore, the only "shield" that meets the criterion of the shield portion of this shield/weapon is a light shield.
As a sort of back-up to that, light shields add 1 AC (which these do in fact add) whereas heavy shields add +2 AC. Additionally, every "buckler" class item says it is a buckler (and that it cannot be used to shield bash, and that it makes your attack rolls poor and so on and so forth) whereas this does NOT. Additionally to that, it says it can be enchanted as a weapon or shield, and it does not list any limitations therein, so I'd further suggest it's not a buckler and legal to use.
Applying the Bashing special quality to the shield should work. What I'm saying is, the Bashing special quality says it gives the shield the ability to shield bash, so you can do it because it's enchanted to do so. The description specifically states it makes it capable of delivering a shield bash, therefore it works.
It will still cost gold to give the shields the Bashing mod, and it will still take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to enable you to use either of them.
I know it's not as crystal clear as the Bladed Buckler from that d20 supplement, but I think it's close enough, really.
The original one you linked was a buckler that specified it worked as a buckler for interaction with carrying weapons, but could also be used for shield bashes, meaning the hand could be used and then the shield bashes taken, gaining 1 extra attack per arm. This was an exception to the general rule that a limb can only be used once even if having multiple attack forms (the reason each arm is not also making slam and claw attacks).
Very good efforts, but they just won't work to squeeze more attacks in for this character.
So with no feats and no body parts to spare, getting additional attacks is probably going to prove difficult.
I think I have a few more suggestions though, I'll go back to the splats.
So with no feats and no body parts to spare, getting additional attacks is probably going to prove difficult.
It has indeed.
Any other doubling tricks would be the most effective, with anything adding more attacks for each 'hand' or another 'hand' entirely the second best.
I really do <3 the efforts though.
:D
Also, how do you make out that each limb can only be used once, when many animals can go claw/claw/rake/rake?
This may be a completely daft suggestion, but what happens if you drop the weapon attacks and go back to claw attacks? That way, you could try to find a way to get rend attacks, no?
Also, how do you make out that each limb can only be used once, when many animals can go claw/claw/rake/rake?
1. Rend is damage, not attacks.
2. Crescent knives double the number of attacks you get to make with them. Going to claws halves the number of attacks you get to make.
3. Rake attacks use hind legs.
What kind of dpr can this thing output atm?
Ah, my bad then.
What kind of dpr can this thing output atm?
I haven't bothered to figure out.
i think it means, damage per round at the moment.
Oh... Well I know THAT...
I just haven't gotten down to calculating it. I don't even know how much cresent knives do... But Str is 58... For 24 bonus... Assuming all hit, 12,288 per round before rolling any dice.
Hardly a record, but still pretty hefty.
Additionally, if you can squeeze in two feats (which you can't, but if it was possible by some trick (flaws, taint... Abyssal Retraining on racial bonus feats...)) add Aberrant Heriatage and Deepspawn for two additional tentacles, turn them into hands with the gloves, and attach crescent knives...
My two coppers...
Ok, I know this is reliant both on magic items and 3.0, but still, you use SS yourself... add Gloves of Man (SS) to turn all extra limbs into crescent knife-wielding hands. That might add a few attacks.
Additionally, if you can squeeze in two feats (which you can't, but if it was possible by some trick (flaws, taint... Abyssal Retraining on racial bonus feats...)) add Aberrant Heriatage and Deepspawn for two additional tentacles, turn them into hands with the gloves, and attach crescent knives...
My two coppers...
This is the kind of insight into oversights that is why I keep bumping this. Reworking now.
Hrm... I don't think the aberration blood will work. In addition to requiring 3 feats to get 2 tentacles, once using true mind switch, she's no longer a humanoid, so no longer qualifies for the feats (even if the physical change would carry over to the new body, a feat that changes the body is iffy territory with true mind switch). So she'd lose the benefits anyway.
Just using 4 gloves of man on the tentacles she has and the Arms of Plenty casting nets 40 extra attack though. We're now at 552.
Hrmm... would arms of plenty work on a tail if it can make an attack? I wouldn't think so per the entry, but just a thought.
Any more for any more?
This is the kind of insight into oversights that is why I keep bumping this. Reworking now.
Always glad to help...
Hrm... I don't think the aberration blood will work.
True, I wrote that afb, so I didn't really check on the prerequisites. My original idea was to take the feats (via Abyssal Retraining) after changing form, but as you don't qualify, that won't work.
Still, if you need more feats, Abyssal Retraining is the way to go...
Since we're type-fixing with templates, we can add Voidmind to a Giant for another tentacle, then give it a Glove of Man for +12 attacks.
Any more for any more?
Sadly I still don't know an way to get past a Voidmind creature's immunity to mind affecting effects.
And true to the TO boards...
A Kobold does it better.
Same cohorts/tactics.
Same Marilith Templates (In order):
Show
Multi-Headed(12)
Aberrant Limbs(arms)
Half-Dragon(red) - type becomes Dragon and gains bite
Half-Troll - type becomes Giant
Half-Minotaur - gains gore
Half-Ogre - considered a Giant as well as base creature (let's us make other abuses)
Half-Farspawn - type becomes Outsider again, gains 2 tentacles
Multi-Headed(12)
Aberrant Limbs(arms)
Half-Dragon(red) - type becomes Dragon and gains bite
Half-Troll - type becomes Giant
Half-Minotaur - gains gore
Half-Ogre - considered a Giant as well as base creature (let's us make other abuses)
Half-Farspawn - type becomes Outsider again, gains 2 tentacles
Kobolds rule optimisation, OK?
Can we call him Blender?
But once he's in the Marilith's body, does she still qualify for the Dragonwrought feat?
Apparently (s)he qualifies for the Genderswitch feat, anyhow :P
But once he's in the Marilith's body, does she still qualify for the Dragonwrought feat?
A very good point, and one perturbed me for a long time.
But in the end, I think she'd keep the benefits of Dragonwrought. We're not relying on any mechanics of the body from the feat, just of the identity.
The mind, the soul, the essence of the creature is unchanged.
A creature with super-natural or spell-like abilities because of it's race or feats retains them, and type is never changed.
So, even though she's in a new body, she is still a kobold.
Kobolds rule optimisation, OK?
Can we call him Blender?
Seems as good a name as any.
Apparently (s)he qualifies for the Fenderswitch feat, anyhow :P
...I said Genderswitch. Honest.
Hehehehee... I get it now...
:D
:P
If no one sees any problems with the techniques on The Blender, I'll update the OP when I get back from work.
...Perfect Multiweapon fighting is very interesting, in that it allows us to make as many attacks with each off-hand weapon as we do with our primary.
The Kobold pulls a 19 BAB, giving her 7 attacks (19/16/13/10/7/4/1 from Maho-Bujin). Whirling Frenzy adds another for 8. Flailing Strike (which we can use now, since Shou Disciple levels let us use all weapons in a flurry) gives a maximum of 4 more (and since this is going for tops, that's what we'll use) for 12 total. Thousand Cuts doubles this to 24. A Speed weapon or haste gives another for 25. Using Crescent Knives doubles all these, meaning she makes 50 main-hand attacks.
That means each of our off-hand attack routines make 50 base attacks.
She has 9 already with Girallon's Blessing. The Wizard casts Arms of Plenty for two more clawed limbs. These and her tentacles make use of 4 Gloves of Man. With her 12 heads using mouthpick weapons, that's 25 off-hand attack sequences that use crescent knives, each making 50 attacks. That alone nets us 1250 attacks, but Thousand Cuts doubles this, for 2500. Crescent Knives doubles this again, making it 5000, or 5050 attack so far.
Have I made any mistake in this?
I've cut the post down a lot here, but basically my question is; can you really double something up in the same way multiple times?
The build uses Thousand Cuts and Crescent Knives to more-or-less quadruple the number of main-hand attacks. Then PMF means each offhand has this many attacks... where Thousand Cuts (and in some cases Crescent Knives) are used to double up again?
Logic (as much as it's applicable to D&D maths) would suggest you could apply those bonuses to the base attacks on the main hand (which are then transferred to all other limbs), or calculate the attacks on the other limbs with those bonuses and then apply them to ALL limbs (which has the same effect in the long run), but not both. Not a concept killer... you should still wind up with over 1000 attacks, although I haven't done the maths... But I just noticed that, and thought I'd throw it out there. Hope I'm wrong!
I've cut the post down a lot here, but basically my question is; can you really double something up in the same way multiple times?
The build uses Thousand Cuts and Crescent Knives to more-or-less quadruple the number of main-hand attacks. Then PMF means each offhand has this many attacks... where Thousand Cuts (and in some cases Crescent Knives) are used to double up again?
It's easiest to think of it in terms of the order the abilities are used in (though to make the math easier I did it out of order a bit).
Crescent Knives double all those attacks we do, from the start.
Thousand Cuts doubles every attack we make (other than haste) for the full attack it applies to.
Our mainhand makes it's first attack, which becomes four attacks from above.
Each of our off-hands then make four attacks, which becomes 16 for those using crescent knives, because they still gain the benefits of both abilities. The offhands not using crescent knives only make 8 attacks for each individual mainhand attack.
Though, now that I've had to review it, I did the non-crescent knife offhand attacks wrong...
I've got too few attacks in there.
Go to your first post, hit Edit, and then hit Go Advanced. That should give you the ability to change the title.
When I change the title bar that way, it changes the title of the post, but not of the thread. @.@
There's an icon next to the page 1 symbol when you view the thread from the forum.
I really am feeling like an idiot that I can't figure this out...
See the little paper-with-writing thingies? Those.
So, you view all the threads in the forum.
See the little paper-with-writing thingies? Those.
Hrm... I even tried on another computer and different browsers, but I never found a clickable option to change the thread's title...
I'll just crosspost a link in standard CO (since duplicating the topic here is likely frowned on) with an updated title/attack count now that the OP has been updated.
--S
Not sure I follow the logic here though. Don't you lose your physical abilities once you mind switch? Does the super Marilith qualify for perfect TWF?
--S
With a 19 base dexterity, +6 from gloves, and the +2 from the half troll template, she more than qualifies.
Anyone have any further insight on how to gain a higher set number of attacks for this gal?
Warmind 5 for sweeping strike?
Warmind 5 for sweeping strike?
Would require a load of rebuilding (lose Barb, Chaos Monk, and Shou for 20 lost base attacks, as well as needing to meet different prereqs).
Also only actually doubles attacks when a second target is available and adjacent to the first, instead of merely providing additional granted attacks (which is the goal of this project).
I'll think on it, but not sure it'll be worth it (or possible) in the end.
I can add 12 more attacks. Horned Helm from the MIC grants a secondary gore attack. We have 12 heads. 12 Horned Helms = 12 extra gore attacks.
We've already got a gore attack.
I forgot... Are we using Form of Doom for four more tentacle attacks?
Won't work, says you have to be in your original body to gain the benefits. Even with True Mind Switch, our last occupied body counts as the original.
thanks
I would love to know how such a creature came into existence. was this things relatives part of some monsterous swingers club?
A wizard did it.
Update added down at the bottom.
Up to 7000 attacks now.
Nice job on the project by the way, I would have never thought of half of that, hehe...
Only 2001 more to go....:D :D :D
Nice job on the project by the way, I would have never thought of half of that, hehe...
Find a way to get 10 more off-hand crescent knife progressions and a wing buffet... ;)
And half of this I didn't think of, but what I did think up took many months of mulling.
Or for more recent material, if you could find a way to drop two levels of something in your build you could choose to be a non-psionic thri-kreen instead, which only has a +1 LA that can be bought off (but it does have 2 HD and a +2 BaB)
Well, I don't know how well it would work, but since your using Dragon already.....why not use a Diopsid instead of a kobold for the base creature? Diopsids have a +0 LA and 4 arms (though the damage and stuff for the extra arms is weird).
Or for more recent material, if you could find a way to drop two levels of something in your build you could choose to be a non-psionic thri-kreen instead, which only has a +1 LA that can be bought off (but it does have 2 HD and a +2 BaB)
I don't think you quite grasp the point of the kobold in the build...
Being a kobold to start is necessary to get epic feats before epic levels, and number of limbs of the starting race is entirely irrelevant, as the kobold switches bodies with a massively templated Marilith.
Let me try to redeem myself with the following:
Marilith+templates Tauric giant octopus
This template (from MM2) applied to the marilith and a giant octopus would change the marilith+templates into a magical beast (I'm not sure if that conflicts with feats/abilities) but it would gain 8 more tentacle attacks, as well as improved grab goodness. Apply the magic item that allows natural weapons to hold manufactured weapons and I believe that your rolling in atleast 32? more attacks.
Helpful or not, just something I thought up. :P
Ah, I had forgotten about the Marilith part, but how does a kobold warrant epic feats at low levels?
Because Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons as they have the Dragon type and Dragon age categories.
And all True Dragons can take Epic feats once reaching a certain age category (Old? I don't remember). And Dragonwrought Kobolds specifically do not gain the penalties of old age, so a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold has +3 to all mental stats and the ability to take epic feats from 1st level.
Let me try to redeem myself with the following:
Marilith+templates Tauric giant octopus
This template (from MM2) applied to the marilith and a giant octopus would change the marilith+templates into a magical beast (I'm not sure if that conflicts with feats/abilities) but it would gain 8 more tentacle attacks, as well as improved grab goodness. Apply the magic item that allows natural weapons to hold manufactured weapons and I believe that your rolling in atleast 32? more attacks.
Helpful or not, just something I thought up. :P
Actually, if that worked, it would allow us to gain 16 more crescent knife attack progressions.
Sadly, the tactic can only be used if the 'upper body' creature is of the Humanoid type. It doesn't even work with Giants or Monstrous Humanoids.
@.@
Great catch though, and the kind of input that's helped get this monster to where she's at. :D
Hmm....now if only there was a template that turned your type to humanoid.
Voidmind from MM3 adds a tentacle attack coming out of your forehead. Sadly only one, and it changes your type to aberration
It also makes you immune to mind-affecting effects, and thus able to have mindswitch used on you.
Hmm....now if only there was a template that turned your type to humanoid.
Yea. If you find one anywhere let me know. That would unluck a LOT of possibilities.
19,461 is the new number.
Formatting update soon.
Bump.
Updated again, over 80,000 attacks now.
Ah so I see you did use the Tauric template I suggested afterall. :D Glad to know I helped just a little. Nice find on the Incarnate Construct for execution of the template as well.
Yea. it took some finessing, but was able to work in the end. :D
145,744 is the new total. Follow the link in my sig for the newest version, it's updated more regularly.
ejo is up to 1 Million, over at bg.
Heh, thanks for the update/bump awaken.
I hadn't had the chance to do it myself.
:D
er, I mean Ia! Ph’nglui mglw’nfah Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn! Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn!
Heh, the image on the first page is enough to justify this thread---
er, I mean Ia! Ph’nglui mglw’nfah Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn! Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn!
That image is from back when we only had 20k attacks...
The new monstrosity has over 5x the tentacly goodness!
:D :D :D