Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bakkan Jul 21, 2009 22:15:53	Okay, so I had a fun thought. I am nowhere near sure this process is 100% legal, but even if not, it's a fun exercise. I realize that higher numbers could be achieved simply by raising the caster level, but I thought it only fair to consider the case where the caster level of a scroll is the bare minimum for what I need it to do. Unusual things this build uses/assumes: Epic scrolls, as described in the SRD Unlimited wealth because we will be using a lot of scrolls Scrolls take as long to cast as their individual scrolls, as per DMG p213 Quick draw allows us to draw scrolls (from a Handy Haversack, our Floating Disk, whatever) as a free action When a Druid with the Ashbound feat (ECS p50) scribes a scroll of Summon Nature's Ally, the duration is doubled Extend Spell stacks with Ashbound using "normal" multiplication (i.e. duration of 4 rds/level) We are in or near an aquatic environment Scrolls we will need: Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX Delayed Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX Quickened Delayed Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX The quickened delayed version is a 33rd-level spell, requiring a caster level of 44. Intensified Repeating Time Stop Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop Quickened Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop The quickened delayed version is a 26th-level spell, requiring a caster level of 37. Greater Celerity An 8th-level spell, requiring a caster level of 15. As for the class build, it doesn't matter, except for six things: Our Concentration check is at least +20 Our UMD check is at least +50 We have 1 level of Swordsage or Warblade and know the Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver (ToB p64) We have 4 levels of Warlock (CArc), 13 levels of Artificer (ECS), or some other way to take 10 on UMD checks We take the Quick Recovery feat (LoM 181) We must take the Quick Draw feat Note that we can always get a UMD check of 60, allowing us to cast all of our scrolls. Also, we will never roll a 1, so we can cast form all the scrolls without risking error. We will use a trick that, under this interpretation, allows us to cast Greater Celerity while bypassing the dazing effects. We make sure that casting Greater Celerity happens at the end of our turn, so that we begin our next turn dazed. We can make a Will save to end the effect thanks to Quick Recovery. This takes a move action. Since Greater Celerity does not have a standard saving throw, the DC is equal to 10+ (1/2) the originator's level + the relevant ability mod. Since Greater Celerity is an 8th-level spell, the originator had at least 15 levels and an Intelligence of 18 (+4) mod. So if we purchased the weakest version of the scroll possible, this gives a DC of 21. Moment of Perfect Mind says that you can spend an Immediate (swift) action anytime you need to make a Will save in order to make a Concentration check instead. In particular, it says that you don't fail on a natural 1. With a Concentration check high enough, we auto-succeed. All we need to do is make sure that we spend a full-round action before our next round in order to recover the Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver. Note that I am aware of the spell Favor of the Martyr. See the next part of my post for that analysis. So here's what we do: Round 1: Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Swift Action: Cast Greater Celerity Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Rounds 2-5: Move+Swift Action: Recover from Daze Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop(Delayed to round 6) Round 6: Move+Swift Action: Recover from Daze Free Action: 12 Time Stops come into effect Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Round 7: Move+Swift Action: Recover from Daze Free Action: 14 Time Stops come into effect Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Rounds 8-186: Move+Swift Action: Recover from Daze Free Action: 2 Time Stops come into effect Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Note that every Intensified Time Stop gives us 10 rounds. Rounds 6: In this round, 14 Intensified Time Stops apply Rounds 7: In this round, 16 Intensified Time Stops apply Rounds 8-10: In each of these rounds, 4 Intensified Time Stops apply. So in these five turns we have a total of 42 Intensified Time Stops, granting us 420 rounds with which to work. 5 full-found actions are devoted to recovering our Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver, leaving 415 full-round actions and 420 swift actions. Cast 415 copies of Delayed Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, and 420 copies of Quickened Delayed Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, all of them delayed to round 11. Rounds 11-185: In each of these rounds, 4 Intensified Time Stops apply. So in these 175 turns we have a total of 700 Intensified Time Stops, granting us 7000 rounds with which to work. 175 full-round actions are devoted to recovering our Moment of Perfect Mind Maneuver, leaving 6825 full-round actions and 7000 swift actions. Cast 6825 copies of Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, and 7000 copies of Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Repeating Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX Round 186: In this round, 4 Intensified Time Stops apply, granting us 40 rounds in which to work. We don't care about what happens after this, so use all 40 rounds to cast 40 copies of Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX and Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX each. All of these Summon Nature's Ally Spells have a duration of 44x4 = 176 rounds, so in round 186 all the creatures that have been summoned are active. In rounds 11 - 185, we were casting Twinned Repeating versions of the spell, so all those spells were effectively cast four times, while the spells cast in round 186 were twinned, so they were effectively cast 2 times. This gives a total of 4x(415+420+6825+7000)+2x(40+40) = 4x14,660+2x80 = 58,640+160 = 58,800 effective castings. What did we summon with all these spells? Giant Squid, of course. 10 of them with each casting, because of the Intensified nature of the spells. So we have summoned a total of 588,000 Giant Squid. Giant Squid, when they make a full attack, can attack a total of 11 times (10 tentacles, one bite). So 588,000 Giant Squid can make a total of 6,468,000 attacks. I don't even want to think about the amount of money we would need to spend to make this happen. Note that the only thing casting Greater Celerity every round does really is allow us to cast two extra Time Stops in the first round. Eliminating the entire Celerity-Quick Recovery-Moment of Perfect Mind would reduce the number of attacks only slightly. Now let's consider what happens if we include the spell Favor of the Martyr (SpC), which makes a target "...immune to effects that would cause it to be dazed...." It would be valid interpretation to suggest that having this spell on you would actually make you immune to Celerity. However, let's run this exercise again, on the assumption that Favor of the Martyr only keeps yo from being dazed as a result of casting Celerity. Here we go... Round 0: Cast Extended Favor of the Martyr on self. Rounds 1-5: Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Swift Action: Cast Greater Celerity Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Delayed Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop (Delayed to round 6) Rounds 6-7: Free Action: 30 Time Stops come into effect [b]Standard Action:[b] Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Swift Action: Cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Rounds 8-186: Free Action: 6 Time Stops come into effect Standard Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop Swift Action: Cast Greater Celerity. Greater Celerity's Standard Action: Cast Intensified Repeating Time Stop Greater Celerity's Move Action: Reduce to swift action and cast Quickened Intensified Repeating Time Stop So now, in round 6 we have a total of 36 Time Stops applying, in round 7 we have a total of 42 Time Stops applying, and in rounds 8-186 we have a total of 12 Time Stops applying each round. In rounds 6-10 we will spend all our actions casting Delayed Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Repeating Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX and Delayed Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Repeating Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, delayed to round 11, as appropriate. We have a total of 36+42+3x12 = 114 Time Stops applying, and in each case we can cast 20 copies of our spell, each of which is Twinned and Repeated, for an effective 114x20x4 = 9,120 castings of the spell. In rounds 11-185 we will spend all our actions casting Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Repeating Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX and Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Repeating Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, as appropriate. We have a total of 175x12 = 2100 Time Stops applying, and in each case we can cast 20 copies of our spell, each of which is Twinned and Repeated, for an effective 2100x20x4 = 168,000 castings of the spell. In the last round, we will spend all our actions casting Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX and Quickened Intensified Extended Twinned Rapid Ashbound Summon Nature's Ally IX, as appropriate. We have 12 Time stops, each granting 20 castings, each of which is effectively two castings, for an effective 12x20x2=480 castings of the spell. So all told, we have an effective 177,600 castings of the spell. Each one summons 10 Giant Squid, so we have 1,776,000 Giant Squid serving us. If all of them perform a full attack, that will be a total of 19,536,000 attacks in a single round. I welcome suggestions as to how to make this better, as well as anyone pointing out that I have violated RAW somewhere.
#2 emy Jul 21, 2009 22:54:04	Move Action: Reduce to swift action What is this I don't even
#3 bakkan Jul 21, 2009 23:57:22	The idea is that you can exchange one action for a "shorter" one, i.e. you can take a move action instead of a standard action and you can take a swift action instead of a move action. I don't have a rules reference on me, if someone could link or quote one that would be great.
#4 ian_frost Jul 22, 2009 0:32:52	Don't the things you summon with SNA all appearer within 25' + 5/2 levels of you? even at at a super high caster level thats pretty cramped :P (and on a less pessimistic note, if this is legal it looks ridiculously fun)
#5 emy Jul 22, 2009 1:12:27	The idea is that you can exchange one action for a "shorter" one, i.e. you can take a move action instead of a standard action and you can take a swift action instead of a move action. I don't have a rules reference on me, if someone could link or quote one that would be great. Yeah, you can take a move instead of a standard, but that's it.
#6 flawless_p Jul 22, 2009 3:39:49	Yeah, you can take a move instead of a standard, but that's it. My Personal feelings as a DM: I'd say its safe to assume that something that takes a swift action can be done as a move action if you have already used your swift action for the round, on a case by case basis of course as the potential for abuse is through the roof. Somthing things dont matter all that much though(like for instance casting Inspirational Boost as a move action since you used your boots of side stepping to take a second 5 foot step.)
#7 Senevri Jul 22, 2009 5:00:03	I would personally allow a swift instead of a standard, but allowing a swift instead of a move leads to abuse. That being said, that's how it goes... In Star Wars Saga edition!
#8 pyro_azer Jul 22, 2009 9:08:42	If moves could be exchanged for swifts I would happly abuse belt of battle to cast 5 quickened spells in one round!
#9 emy Jul 22, 2009 9:53:24	If moves could be exchanged for swifts I would happly abuse belt of battle to cast 5 quickened spells in one round! You may cast only one quickened spell per round. Plus, Belt of Battle takes a swift action to activate.
#10 -ktkenshinx- Jul 22, 2009 10:43:21	The D&D glossary defines that a Swift action can only be undertaken once per turn, with no clause that leads to exceptions. Move actions explicitly mention that they can be substituted for standard actions. Swift actions do not have this clause; indeed the only thing they say is that they can only be performed once per turn. Substituting a swift action in the place of a move action does not appear to have any RAW basis, unless I have missed a key passage somewhere. -ktkenshinx-
#11 bakkan Jul 22, 2009 15:07:19	Ah, OK, I was mistaken about action exchanges. Even so, that only means that the second method yields about 13 Million attacks instead of 19.5 Million. As regards the space limitation - yeah, it would probably be an issue if it ever came up, however the range on a scroll of SNA with a CL of 44 is 135 feet. If we were at least 135 feet underwater that gives us a summoning area of about 5.7 Million square feet. If we assume that each squid takes up approximately a 15ft-cube (with a volume of 3375 square feet), we can fit about 1690 squid into our summoning area at one time. Also, if we assume that for some reason the squid are swimming away as fast as possible (160 ft/rd), we shouldn't have a problem. If this still isn't enough, we can add the Metamagic feat Enlarge Spell to all the SNAs, doubling their range, so tripling the (spherical) summoning area, allowing for 5070 Giant Squid to be in the area at once, before considering the fact that the CL has now increased again.
#12 pyro_azer Jul 22, 2009 22:07:14	Plus, Belt of Battle takes a swift action to activate. My bad. I need to stop posting on no sleep.
#13 theeternalabyss Jul 23, 2009 15:58:27	The problem I see is this: Assuming it's all legit (and as a DM, I see a few cracks in this..but for arguments sake let's ignore it), I don't see how all those squids would be able to attack one target since many of them (well most of them) would be way out of range. Either I'm miscalculating something or I'm just loopy...or both... ...and yes that would cost a fortune.