Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 eldritch_lord Aug 06, 2008 15:02:56	Greetings, CO gurus. I have a bit of a dilemma. Scenario I'm going to be taking a break from DMing for a while, and a friend of mine is going to DM a Ravenloft game for us next week, starting with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (I don't want spoilers, just throwing that out there in case there are special Ravenloft rules I should know about). Character creation rules Big 3 only (PHB+DMG+MM) Starting level 8th; ending level unknown Normal wealth, normal ability score gen, etc. Problem First, I haven't played with only the PHB+DMG since...well, since never; the last few characters of mine have all been from either Tome of Battle or Tome of Magic. Secondly, the other 4 players are first-timers who we're trying to interest in D&D (since they're new, they'll be picking from a group of pregens that come with the module; I wasn't allowed to see the builds so I couldn't influence them one way or another, so they're pretty much wild cards at this point). There are three things I want to do with my character: 1) Don't overshadow the others. I want to make sure they enjoy the session, and blowing everything away before their initiative comes up won't help with that. 2) Don't be a healbot. I want to have fun too (haven't played in a while, just DMed) so doing the pure healbot cleric/bard pure buffer routine isn't going to do it for me. 3) Don't be complex. I'm probably going to spend lots of time helping the others learn the rules as we go along, so an every-monster-in-the-MM wild shape druid or a color-spray-I-win wizard probably won't work. ---------------- Given these criteria, what would you suggest for a build? I've checked the Low-Level Build Compilation, but everything there requires material from other books. Ideas 1) Sorcerer 8 Nice and simple, focus on Evocation spells and blast people. Problems: I don't know what kinds of baddies we'll face, and we could be screwed if I'm the only arcanist and my spells aren't effective. 2) Rogue 6/Ranger (TWF) 2 Trapfinding will certainly help, my need for flanking for sneak attacks will ensure that I get the others involved and don't crush the opposition, and I can pick up Favored Enemy: Undead (I know that much about Ravenloft). Problems: I don't know whether TWF and SA will overshadow other damage-dealers in the party. 3) Cleric 8, Good and Sun domains I can play a cleric without being just a healbot, as Good and Sun spells (particularly greater turning) would be good against undead. Problems: first, I don't know what gods would be available--and thus whether I can get Good and Sun--and second, apparently with the Ravenloft horror rules pumping Wis is going to be a bad thing. 4) Fighter 8 Focusing on one weapon and wearing good armor here could get me good consistent attacks/damage plus a good AC, so I wouldn't have to worry about my character while I help the other players. Problems: pure fighter is already starting to suck by level 8, and if the campaign continues for a while I'd be screwed. This is really hard for me, as I'm not used to pulling my punches or dealing with new players (much less both at the same time), so any advice you have I'd greatly appreciate.
#2 kurashu Aug 06, 2008 15:58:34	Stick with cleric. Alternatively: Paladin 2/Cleric 6. Greatsword + Power Attack = win. There's a divine/martial oriented prestige class in the appendix you may be allowed to use if your DM agrees. So, keep a lot out for that one.
#3 eldritch_lord Aug 06, 2008 16:32:04	Stick with cleric. Do you happen to know what pantheon Ravenloft uses, so I can plan for that? Alternatively: Paladin 2/Cleric 6. Greatsword + Power Attack = win. Hmm, hadn't even looked at paladin. Thanks! There's a divine/martial oriented prestige class in the appendix you may be allowed to use if your DM agrees. So, keep a lot out for that one. Which appendix, PHB, DMG, or the module?
#4 Blade2718 Aug 06, 2008 21:35:15	Do you happen to know what pantheon Ravenloft uses, so I can plan for that? Ravenloft has no default pantheon, near as I can tell. Just worship an ideal. Which appendix, PHB, DMG, or the module? Module's appendix. There are substitution levels and a good PrC in there for your viewing pleasure.
#5 soulsword Aug 06, 2008 22:33:21	Since you are more experienced then the other players, you should do the following: - Try to figure out what rolls are filled by the other players, and then make sure that your character fills any missing rolls. With your time and experience as a DM, you have played a variety of monsters and NPC's and should be able to play almost any build effectively. - If you CAN'T figure out what they are playing, then you should go the caster route. Wizards and clerics are always welcome. Well played arcane casters can fill just about any roll anyway, so an arcane caster would work especially well. If you play a wizard, for example, you can begin by taking a variety of utility spells, buffs, and combat spells. From there, your hypothetical wizard could tailor his/ her future spell selections to focus on any given roll that needs to be filled. Need damage and de- buffs? You can do it. Need a backup healer? You can do that, too. Need battle field control? You can do that easily! No scout? Cast invisibility and a levitation spell and anyone can scout!
#6 eldritch_lord Aug 07, 2008 8:52:35	Ravenloft has no default pantheon, near as I can tell. Just worship an ideal. Excellent. Sun and Good it is. Module's appendix. There are substitution levels and a good PrC in there for your viewing pleasure. Well, assuming I can actually view it. ;) I'll ask the DM, though, and see if she'll let me use it. Thanks for the suggestion. - If you CAN'T figure out what they are playing, then you should go the caster route. Wizards and clerics are always welcome. Well played arcane casters can fill just about any roll anyway, so an arcane caster would work especially well. Very true; I guess I've been more worried about overshadowing the others than covering their weak spots. I suppose since there'll be a lot of undead a cleric would be better than a wizard in this case; I'll just prepare lots of different kinds of spells and go from healbot to "detect -> smite" based on how they're doing. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys; I really appreciate it. Now to go refresh my memory on how turning works, since I haven't used a cleric in forever....
#7 kurashu Aug 07, 2008 9:43:22	You make a roll. Then you make another roll. And I'm pretty sure there's a third one too... The whole thing is bloated and out of control and mostly useless at high levels. Part of the reason why divine feats are a much better use of turn attempts. Actually, probably the entire reason. Here's the SRD on Turning... Turn/Rebuke Undead There are damage variants, the one I can think of is in Complete Divine. Obviously I can't post a link to that.
#8 eldritch_lord Aug 07, 2008 12:50:45	You make a roll. Then you make another roll. And I'm pretty sure there's a third one too... The whole thing is bloated and out of control and mostly useless at high levels. Part of the reason why divine feats are a much better use of turn attempts. Actually, probably the entire reason. Yeah, I know basically how it works and where to find it--I have been playing for a while, you know. ;) I just need to refresh my memory on the exact rolls involved so I can spec my cleric for turning as best I can.
#9 carnivore Aug 07, 2008 16:08:26	all you need to do.... Max out Cha.... it controls how many turn attempts you get, also the effectiveness of your turns.... try this: Human Ranger 1/ Cleric 7 25 pt buy 10 Str(base 8+2) 14 Dex(base 8+6 ) 12 Con(base 8+4) 10 Int(base 8+2) 15 Wis(base 8+6) 16 Cha(base 8+6+2 lvl) Favored Enemy:Undead Feats: Track(ranger Bonus) Skill Focus(Diplomacy)(human Bonus) 1st lvl: Undead Empathy 3rd lvl: Empower Turning 6th lvl: Improved Turning this has great Saves, Skills, and is very effective in several areas... btw, his total Diplomacy vs Intelligent Undead is (3 Skill focus + 3 Cha + 11 ranks +2 Synergy(knowledge(nobility)) +4 Undead empathy+ 2 Masterwork tool) = 25 with an Average Roll(+10) and a Rushed Check(-10, as Full Round Action).... you can change a hostile Undead into an Indifferent.... then next round... do the same thing again and go from Indifferent to Friendly has access to all martial weapons... suggest use a Bow, or thrown Alchemical Weapons.... items: use list from Sample 6th lvl build in the link below... and adjust with: +1 Mithral Chain Shirt +1 Darkwood Buckler +1 Undead Bane Short Bow for more on Turning... look here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13565253&postcount=250 here is a link to some useful info: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13326640&postcount=241 :D
#10 soulsword Aug 07, 2008 16:14:47	Well, turning might not be your best option, but I will sum up the rules for you. You should see PHB page 159 for the complete rules. - You may attempt to turn undead a number of times equal to 3+ cha mod. A turn attempt is a standard action. - You turn undead based on their distance to you, closer undead are turned first. You can turn any undead within 60 feet of you. You do not need to see the undead to turn them. - First, you make a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a charisma check. The result of this indicates the HD of the most powerful undead that you can turn, relative to your level. On a given turn affect, you may affect no undead with HD greater then the result of your check. See PHB page 159 table 8-9 for details. - If you can turn some of the undead, then you roll for turning damage. Roll 2d6 and add your cleric level and your Cha mod. This is your turning damage roll. This is how many HD of undead you can turn. You may skip any already turned undead when turning undead. - Turned undead flee from you for 10 rounds by the best means possible to themselves. If they cannot flee, then they simply cower ( giving attack rolls against them a +2 bonus ). If you approach within 10 feet of them, they become un- turned. You may stand within 10 feet of them, but moving closer to them will then end the effect. - If you have at least twice as many levels as any of the undead you turn successfully have HD, those undead are instead destroyed.
#11 eldritch_lord Aug 07, 2008 19:56:01	@Everyone: Thanks for all the helpful instruction on turning, but really, I don't need it. I've been playing and DMing 3e for years, I just haven't played a cleric recently; all I need to do is pull out my PHB and look at the exact numbers. I don't plan to specialize in turning by any means, just want to keep my options open because there'll be tons of undead. @carnivore: Good build idea, and that Favored Enemy: Undead could come in handy. Problem is, I don't have access to Undead Empathy, Empower Turning, or Improved Turning (PHB+DMG only, remember), so the diplomancer idea won't work. Thanks, though.
#12 soulsword Aug 07, 2008 20:32:33	:embarrass Sorry, Eldritch, I thought that you wanted somebody to detail the rules of turning undead. My bad. I read this: " I just need to refresh my memory on the exact rolls involved so I can spec my cleric for turning as best I can. " Anyway, though, this is what made me think that you wanted to know the exact process. I misunderstood. I know that you are experienced, but I thought that you were just asking for the exact rules so that you didn't have to look it up or something.
#13 Blade2718 Aug 07, 2008 20:43:58	You could be a TWF Ranger/Rogue with the Lightbringer Rogue substitution to sneak attack undead for half damage. You can still heal with wands.
#14 eldritch_lord Aug 08, 2008 7:51:44	:embarrass Sorry, Eldritch, I thought that you wanted somebody to detail the rules of turning undead. My bad. No problem. It was more of a "Gosh darn it, is it d20 + cleric level + Cha or d20 + Cha or...?" than a "Please someone tell me so I don't have to get off my lazy ass and pick up the book." ;) You could be a TWF Ranger/Rogue with the Lightbringer Rogue substitution to sneak attack undead for half damage. You can still heal with wands. Unfortunately I don't have access to that substitution--PHB+DMG only.
#15 carnivore Aug 08, 2008 11:23:22	try this then: Wood Elf(MM)(+2 Str,+2 Dex,-2 Con,-2 Int)Fav Class: Ranger Ranger 1/ Cleric 7 Patron: Ehlonna Domains: Sun Plant or Animal ...if Complete Divine allowed.. take Celerity 25 pt buy 10 Str(base 8+2 racial) 16 Dex(base 8+6+2 Racial ) 12 Con(base 8+6-2 racial) 10 Int(base 8+4 -2 racial) 17 Wis(base 8+5 +2 lvl) 12 Cha(base 8+4) Feats: Track(ranger bonus) 1st lvl: Weapon Finnesse 3rd lvl: Improved Turning 6th lvl: Point Blank Shot or Extra Turning :D
#16 eldritch_lord Aug 08, 2008 21:20:28	...Ranger 1/ Cleric 7... Another good idea. I've sent both off to the DM and see if she approves one or both.
#17 lord_karsus Aug 19, 2008 18:06:13	Do you happen to know what pantheon Ravenloft uses, so I can plan for that? -Lathander the Morninglord (Forgotten Realms) is known in Ravenloft, so that works out perfectly.