"Assacaster" CO Experiment - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

"Assacaster" CO Experiment

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
The_Fred
May 12, 2012 4:57:13 A while ago I was thinking of playing around with the Assassin's spellcasting. At most you're probably going to get some kind of stealth gish, but the Assassin actually has fairly decent spellcasting so with some smart PrCing I wondered if you could optimise a character around it somehow.

What does the Assassin have? Full speed progression up to 9th level, when it should get 5th-level spells but doesn't. A limited spell list, but one which is improved greatly by the Spell Compendium, Complete Adventurer, etc. Not that many spells per day (but a high Int will help that) and limited spells known. We can (ab)use PrCs to fix those, though. A bigger issue is that you have to be L5 to enter, meaning you lose 5 levels of advancement.

I think the biggest issue is lack of spells beyond 4th level. Probably this sort of a char is only going to be viable in mid levels. Many campaigns don't go up to L20 anyway, though, and besides this is just more of a thought experiment.

Wizard/Assassin/Ultimate Magus (using something like Human Paragon for the skills, probably) seems like the easiest way to make the Assassin spellcasting a bit more potent, but then you're essentially just playing a Wizard/UM with a bit of Assacasting on the side.

Any thoughts? I was thinking Nightmare Spinner for more slots, perhaps Wyrm Wizard for an extra spell or two known. Since your casting is limited anyway, you can afford to give up caster levels for more spells per day and known. An odd idea which occurs to me is Geomancer. I'm just not sure how to give this guy any kind of offense (his spells will be for utility, his sneak will not be as good as a full rogue/'sin, and his BAB will be kinda poor... touch spells might be nice, but I don't know how many assassins even have).
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
May 12, 2012 9:41:31 If you look through the Optimization Showcase links in my sig, I've dropped hints at a "Wizsassin" build but haven't posted it yet. The UM approach is a lot more than just "wizard with assassin on the side" - it's possible to get assassin CL 21 and wizard CL 24 in the same build (pre-gear, but it takes a couple tricks) this way, and the wizard spell slots can be used to apply metamagic to the spontaneous spells the assassin casts (it comes online late due to wonky timing, but HELLO persistent +7d6 Hunter's Eye! - Yes, it isn't on the assassin list to begin with, but that's where Unseen Seer comes into play.). At the lower levels you also have weaponlike spells and Energy Substitution to switch between vulnerabilities (and Energy Vulnerability itself if you want), remembering that weaponlike spells convert Sneak Attack to their energy type and that vulnerabilities use "bonus 50%" damage instead of rules like doubling, so it would actually increase the sneak attack results. At the mid/upper levels you can combine a few wizard spells with assassin features for impressive burst damage (Twin Telekinesis + Quickened Fire Shuriken, for instance) At the higher levels you can even Time Stop for the rounds you need to Death Attack something (although this is mostly for show, since the death attack DC is lower than your save-or-die DCs, but fewer things haveblanket immunity to Death Attack). There's even a few other tricks in there, but I don't have a full writeup ready for it.

Of the alternatives, Geomancer intrigues me most. I'm wondering if you can't get access to TWO internal-casting PrCs (Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord are the usual examples, but I think even the Temple Raider would be a better conceptual fit) and see what havoc can be wreaked using that. Another odd, but VERY challenging, approach is the Fochlucan Lyrist; there are ways of getting around its Druidic and Evasion requirements without costing you much in the way of casting, and the remaining cost can be eaten up with using less-than-20 PrCs.
#3
The_Fred
May 13, 2012 3:29:20
The UM approach is a lot more than just "wizard with assassin on the side" ...
HELLO persistent +7d6 Hunter's Eye!

True, UM will make Assassin casting far more powerful, but surely you could just take Hunter's Eye as a Wizard spell and relegate Assassin casting to spontaneous utility. What I mean is, you will be a Wizard first and an Assassin second (though it would be a cool build, especially given how assassin-like you can build a Wizard to be).

The problem with Ur-Priest is that the skill mean you need to be L5 to take it, so you have XX 5/Ur 2/Assassin 3 before you could go to, e.g. Mystic Theurge (unless you use early-entry, which I guess wouldn't be hard with the XX 5). Sublime Chord casts spontaneously so I don't think you could dual-progress the two. Temple Raider is a good idea though, at least for the flavour.

Geomancer interests me because it usually sucks (at least without early entry) but since you have those 5 levels at the start anyway, you could easily do something like Trickery Domain Cleric -> Assassin -> Geomancer. Spell Versitility wouldn't be that useful but Drift and Ley Lines are cool. Not massively potent, though.

Soulcaster also crossed my mind.
#4
Slagger_the_Chuul
May 13, 2012 3:55:32
Geomancer interests me because it usually sucks (at least without early entry) but since you have those 5 levels at the start anyway, you could easily do something like Trickery Domain Cleric -> Assassin -> Geomancer. Spell Versitility wouldn't be that useful but Drift and Ley Lines are cool. Not massively potent, though.

I've mainly looked into geomancer for a couple of divine crusader antimagic field builds, since drift is extraordinary and serves as a nice complement to grafts.

It's not so much a good class for dual casters as a single-casting improvement with a complicated requirement for entry. You really need to have one casting class you just don't care about advancing.
#5
The_Fred
May 13, 2012 7:53:16 Well, in the assassin case, you have to have 5 levels first which don't advance casting, so it's easy to enter Geomancer. That makes it pretty viable, IMO, and there are some cool Drifts (hide bonuses shout out to the assassin, but lots of natural weapons etc. too).
#6
Slagger_the_Chuul
May 14, 2012 0:50:57
Well, in the assassin case, you have to have 5 levels first which don't advance casting, so it's easy to enter Geomancer. That makes it pretty viable, IMO, and there are some cool Drifts (hide bonuses shout out to the assassin, but lots of natural weapons etc. too).

Yes, it's much easier if you're using a prestige class that supplies its own casting, but it's still a bit of a disadvantage, since the levels you spend on that other casting class could instead have been used to get something like rogue levels for more sneak attack dice (which would nicely augment all those natural attacks).

It works, but it's more a case of being able to take the levels you need, rather than being free to take the levels you really want.
#7
The_Fred
May 15, 2012 3:37:42 True.
#8
The_Fred
May 16, 2012 14:47:30 I think Nightmare Spinner is almost a must-have for extra spell slots (though you don't really get the mileage you should from it). It's very flavourful, though. Some Master Spellthief shenanigans might be worthwhile for the CL boost. An odd one which occurs to me is Dragon Disciple since it provides a lot of bonus spell slots (though getting L4 'sin spells and 10 level of DD is not going to happen).

Still, being limited to 4th-level spells is tough. Maybe some Metamagic abuse?
#9
The_Fred
May 17, 2012 8:36:14 Oh, I just read Fire Shuriken and Ice Knife. Unless you can throw all the shuriken at once, the former doesn't really grab me, but Ice Knife looks very nice. Long range, Dex damage, and what looks like an uncapped +2 AB per 2 caster levels. It does say normal ranged attack, though, rather than touch attack, but that's far in advance of what a full BAB character would get (since it's in addition to your BAB). Man, I'm tempted to make a Water Wu Jen Eldritch Knight just for that.

I also read Magical Trickster, which looks ideal. Recharge tricks (continuous Swift Concentration comes to mind, and that surely isn't the best use), bonus metamagic feat, and apply up to +4 metamagic once per day. Also Tricky Magic (would work nicely with recharge tricks) and bonus tricks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_Fred May 12, 2012 4:57:13	A while ago I was thinking of playing around with the Assassin's spellcasting. At most you're probably going to get some kind of stealth gish, but the Assassin actually has fairly decent spellcasting so with some smart PrCing I wondered if you could optimise a character around it somehow. What does the Assassin have? Full speed progression up to 9th level, when it should get 5th-level spells but doesn't. A limited spell list, but one which is improved greatly by the Spell Compendium, Complete Adventurer, etc. Not that many spells per day (but a high Int will help that) and limited spells known. We can (ab)use PrCs to fix those, though. A bigger issue is that you have to be L5 to enter, meaning you lose 5 levels of advancement. I think the biggest issue is lack of spells beyond 4th level. Probably this sort of a char is only going to be viable in mid levels. Many campaigns don't go up to L20 anyway, though, and besides this is just more of a thought experiment. Wizard/Assassin/Ultimate Magus (using something like Human Paragon for the skills, probably) seems like the easiest way to make the Assassin spellcasting a bit more potent, but then you're essentially just playing a Wizard/UM with a bit of Assacasting on the side. Any thoughts? I was thinking Nightmare Spinner for more slots, perhaps Wyrm Wizard for an extra spell or two known. Since your casting is limited anyway, you can afford to give up caster levels for more spells per day and known. An odd idea which occurs to me is Geomancer. I'm just not sure how to give this guy any kind of offense (his spells will be for utility, his sneak will not be as good as a full rogue/'sin, and his BAB will be kinda poor... touch spells might be nice, but I don't know how many assassins even have).
#2 Tempest_Stormwind May 12, 2012 9:41:31	If you look through the Optimization Showcase links in my sig, I've dropped hints at a "Wizsassin" build but haven't posted it yet. The UM approach is a lot more than just "wizard with assassin on the side" - it's possible to get assassin CL 21 and wizard CL 24 in the same build (pre-gear, but it takes a couple tricks) this way, and the wizard spell slots can be used to apply metamagic to the spontaneous spells the assassin casts (it comes online late due to wonky timing, but HELLO persistent +7d6 Hunter's Eye! - Yes, it isn't on the assassin list to begin with, but that's where Unseen Seer comes into play.). At the lower levels you also have weaponlike spells and Energy Substitution to switch between vulnerabilities (and Energy Vulnerability itself if you want), remembering that weaponlike spells convert Sneak Attack to their energy type and that vulnerabilities use "bonus 50%" damage instead of rules like doubling, so it would actually increase the sneak attack results. At the mid/upper levels you can combine a few wizard spells with assassin features for impressive burst damage (Twin Telekinesis + Quickened Fire Shuriken, for instance) At the higher levels you can even Time Stop for the rounds you need to Death Attack something (although this is mostly for show, since the death attack DC is lower than your save-or-die DCs, but fewer things haveblanket immunity to Death Attack). There's even a few other tricks in there, but I don't have a full writeup ready for it. Of the alternatives, Geomancer intrigues me most. I'm wondering if you can't get access to TWO internal-casting PrCs (Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord are the usual examples, but I think even the Temple Raider would be a better conceptual fit) and see what havoc can be wreaked using that. Another odd, but VERY challenging, approach is the Fochlucan Lyrist; there are ways of getting around its Druidic and Evasion requirements without costing you much in the way of casting, and the remaining cost can be eaten up with using less-than-20 PrCs.
#3 The_Fred May 13, 2012 3:29:20	The UM approach is a lot more than just "wizard with assassin on the side" ... HELLO persistent +7d6 Hunter's Eye! True, UM will make Assassin casting far more powerful, but surely you could just take Hunter's Eye as a Wizard spell and relegate Assassin casting to spontaneous utility. What I mean is, you will be a Wizard first and an Assassin second (though it would be a cool build, especially given how assassin-like you can build a Wizard to be). The problem with Ur-Priest is that the skill mean you need to be L5 to take it, so you have XX 5/Ur 2/Assassin 3 before you could go to, e.g. Mystic Theurge (unless you use early-entry, which I guess wouldn't be hard with the XX 5). Sublime Chord casts spontaneously so I don't think you could dual-progress the two. Temple Raider is a good idea though, at least for the flavour. Geomancer interests me because it usually sucks (at least without early entry) but since you have those 5 levels at the start anyway, you could easily do something like Trickery Domain Cleric -> Assassin -> Geomancer. Spell Versitility wouldn't be that useful but Drift and Ley Lines are cool. Not massively potent, though. Soulcaster also crossed my mind.
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul May 13, 2012 3:55:32	Geomancer interests me because it usually sucks (at least without early entry) but since you have those 5 levels at the start anyway, you could easily do something like Trickery Domain Cleric -> Assassin -> Geomancer. Spell Versitility wouldn't be that useful but Drift and Ley Lines are cool. Not massively potent, though. I've mainly looked into geomancer for a couple of divine crusader antimagic field builds, since drift is extraordinary and serves as a nice complement to grafts. It's not so much a good class for dual casters as a single-casting improvement with a complicated requirement for entry. You really need to have one casting class you just don't care about advancing.
#5 The_Fred May 13, 2012 7:53:16	Well, in the assassin case, you have to have 5 levels first which don't advance casting, so it's easy to enter Geomancer. That makes it pretty viable, IMO, and there are some cool Drifts (hide bonuses shout out to the assassin, but lots of natural weapons etc. too).
#6 Slagger_the_Chuul May 14, 2012 0:50:57	Well, in the assassin case, you have to have 5 levels first which don't advance casting, so it's easy to enter Geomancer. That makes it pretty viable, IMO, and there are some cool Drifts (hide bonuses shout out to the assassin, but lots of natural weapons etc. too). Yes, it's much easier if you're using a prestige class that supplies its own casting, but it's still a bit of a disadvantage, since the levels you spend on that other casting class could instead have been used to get something like rogue levels for more sneak attack dice (which would nicely augment all those natural attacks). It works, but it's more a case of being able to take the levels you need, rather than being free to take the levels you really want.
#7 The_Fred May 15, 2012 3:37:42	True.
#8 The_Fred May 16, 2012 14:47:30	I think Nightmare Spinner is almost a must-have for extra spell slots (though you don't really get the mileage you should from it). It's very flavourful, though. Some Master Spellthief shenanigans might be worthwhile for the CL boost. An odd one which occurs to me is Dragon Disciple since it provides a lot of bonus spell slots (though getting L4 'sin spells and 10 level of DD is not going to happen). Still, being limited to 4th-level spells is tough. Maybe some Metamagic abuse?
#9 The_Fred May 17, 2012 8:36:14	Oh, I just read Fire Shuriken and Ice Knife. Unless you can throw all the shuriken at once, the former doesn't really grab me, but Ice Knife looks very nice. Long range, Dex damage, and what looks like an uncapped +2 AB per 2 caster levels. It does say normal ranged attack, though, rather than touch attack, but that's far in advance of what a full BAB character would get (since it's in addition to your BAB). Man, I'm tempted to make a Water Wu Jen Eldritch Knight just for that. I also read Magical Trickster, which looks ideal. Recharge tricks (continuous Swift Concentration comes to mind, and that surely isn't the best use), bonus metamagic feat, and apply up to +4 metamagic once per day. Also Tricky Magic (would work nicely with recharge tricks) and bonus tricks.