| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1akeakaJul 11, 2008 19:59:57 | What in 'your' (the general community of the CO boards) opinion is the "best" race for building 'scout'-esk characters (in therms of CO), and what is 'your' most fun race you've played as a sneaky character. Two things to note: Best build: Use any race with up to a LA+3, and all WotC source books (and online media) are open to plundering. Also consider all class builds and please list them if they're important to your selection. Most Fun: I don't want to turn this into a stories forum, but feel free to describe your experience in some detail (just don't take it to novel length). (Please leave a coherent reply, and forgive me if this has been done in some sort before (just link it if it is)):D |
| #2blargney_the_secondJul 11, 2008 20:39:10 | Whisper gnomes are an unbelievably good race for scouting. They really almost ought to be LA +1, but they're a freebie. |
| #3rebel7284Jul 11, 2008 21:09:25 | Whisper gnomes are an unbelievably good race for scouting. They really almost ought to be LA +1, but they're a freebie. +1 |
| #4phoenix00Jul 11, 2008 22:10:31 | Rogue 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 18 Feats: Sacred Outlaw from Dragon 357 page 86 (requires 2d6 sneak attack and turning/rebuking ability, cleric/rogue levels stack for turning and sneak attack), Able Learner (to keep all those nice skills as class skills) Race: Changeling with Phrenic (see below) and Dark Template. If you can get a collar of umbral metamorphsis permanent switch out dark for chameleon from underdark (yes it is a Faerun book, but the template itself is something that is "setting less" and can easily be adapted to any setting.) 11d6 sneak attack damage, 6+skillpoints at all levels except first level where you will get 10+skillpoints. The nice social abilities of changeling rogue's subsitution level (you lose trapfinding, luckily psychic rogue 1 gives it back). 18 levels of cleric casting. Choose Transformation Domain for Alter Self, Polymorph (though at level 5), Shapechange and other goodies. Trickery for the other domain, switch out spontaneous heals/inflicts for spontaneous Transformation goodness. You can be anybody, and anything at any time. Also grab a wand of invisibility since it is now a domain spell Try to get your DM to houserule phrenic giving these psionic powers as psi like abilities (taking from the phrenic list, I say it is a lot weaker than getting dominate as a psi like ability, as well as the other phrenic abilities. Then again most of those abilities are inside battle, while these are outside battle.) 1-2 3/day—Empty Mind; 1/day— Distract 3-4 3/day—Control Object, Conceal Thoughts 5-6 1/day—Knock Psionic, Body Equilbrum 7-8 1/day—Wall Walker, Hustle 9-10 3/day—Concealing Amorpha Greater, 1/day— Telekinetic Force 11-12 1/day—Freedom of Movement, 1/day Dimension Slide 13-14 1/day—Telekinetic Manuever, Steadfast Perception 15-16 3/day—Psionic Teleport 17-18 1/day—Adapt Body, True Seeing 19-20 2/day—Adapt Body, True Seeing Massive hide and move silenty bonuses. Many "sneaky abilities" from changing form to gripping on walls. Can put other skill points into search and stuff, can take 10 on most social skills (as well as the skillpoint for these skills.) Can assume many forms, limited mind reader. |
| #5jaronkJul 12, 2008 3:21:11 | I'll second the vote for Whispergnome, though I don't think they need an LA (so it's good that they don't have one!). Skulks are an interesting race as well for stealthers. JaronK |
| #6CantripNJul 12, 2008 7:20:10 | Marrulurk (Sandstorm) is another interesting race. |
| #7eldarielJul 12, 2008 7:39:44 | Strongheart Halfling. The extra feat easily makes up for any stealth bonuses they may lack. |
| #8arcane_dupJul 12, 2008 7:58:05 | I rather like a Pixie for sneaky types. Greater Invisibility at will, insane ability mods, and more! Look it up. There's a Pixie Handbook around here somewhere. |
| #9eldarielJul 12, 2008 8:03:07 | I rather like a Pixie for sneaky types. Greater Invisibility at will, insane ability mods, and more! Look it up. There's a Pixie Handbook around here somewhere. The problem is, he said LA +3 and under; Pixie is LA +4. |
| #10widowJul 12, 2008 8:11:35 | Normally I would avoid level adjustments, but the petal from monster manual 3 is pretty interesting. Techniquelly it has a LA of Cohort +2, but they are tiny, fly speed 60, DR 5/Cold Iron, and stats wise -8, +10, +4, +4, +0, +8. The huge dex, flight good, and tiny size make for every good hide skill checks and maneuverability. They also do well skill wise with a nice +4 Int, not to mention the +10 dex and +8 cha for your rogue skill base. Whisper gnome is still better with the +0 LA, but who could pass up the chance to be a flying flower. If you do whisper gnome, try to get away with some factotum levels for Int to dex and str based skills and the oriental adventures iaijutsu focus. Paired with sneak attack and the gnomish quick razor, you will do ungodly damage from surprise. |
| #11arcane_dupJul 12, 2008 8:28:39 | Ah, sorry. Missed that clause in the original post. You can make it LA+3 if you use LA buyoff rules, though! *g* |
| #12amadithegreatJul 12, 2008 8:36:56 | Normally I would avoid level adjustments, but the petal from monster manual 3 is pretty interesting. Techniquelly it has a LA of Cohort +2, but they are tiny, fly speed 60, DR 5/Cold Iron, and stats wise -8, +10, +4, +4, +0, +8. Except that unless you happen to be a cohort, you can't play them. Hence the +2 (Cohort). :P Whisper gnome is still better with the +0 LA, but who could pass up the chance to be a flying flower. Swashbuckler 3 / Feat Rogue 1 / Factotum 3 / Iaijutsu Master 5 / Assasin 7 / Feat Rogue 1 Take Rogue/Swashbuckler sneak stacking (Qualify for it with ToB stances or assasin sneak.). Int to Damage x2 (Assuming you spend some points..) Int to AC (Twice if you spend points.). Wield Katana, Draw it and slap target for 9d6+9xCha damage. (+7d6 Sneak Attack, +2x Int.) |
| #13widowJul 12, 2008 9:47:16 | Except that unless you happen to be a cohort, you can't play them. Hence the +2 (Cohort). :P Yeah, I know. Just it seems strange it is okay for your cohort, but not you. Okay then, lets plug my favorite class once again which is the ultimate sneaky character. Go with the fiend of possession PrC from the fiend folio. Basically you can possess people and ride around in them and not much can harm you. You can also possess weapons and add your class level to their enchancement bonus. Take greater magic weapon, a weapon with a +1 bonus and 5 points of abilities, and add another 6 to 11 levels to that of abilities. There is several different ways to build they character, but the main key is you need to be an outsider with the evil subtype. This does not mean you have to be evil though. Also needed is knowledge planes and the hide skill at 6 and a will save of +5. Best way but complicated: (also from fiend folio) Karoti 2 HD (LA +2) / bloodline 1/Telepath 1/ FoP 1/Bloodline 1/ FoP 5/ Bloodline 1/ Uncanny trickster 2 (add to bloodline abilties)/Thrallherd 1/ Uncanny Trickster 1/ Feind Of Corruption 1 Take the a feat from the book of nine swords that gives you a maneuver and the hide skill as a class skill. Only other feat needed is inquisitor for the thrallherd class. Okay, what does this give you. First of all your effective FoP level is 11. You can hop into a weapon and add +11 to it. Second you have a thrall. Pick the petal or whatever. That is your ride. If it dies, just get a new one in 24 hours from thrallherd. Make it one of the other sneaky builds above. You could also ride party members and use the Fiend of Possession and corruption powers to push one of their stats by +7. Again while you are riding stuff, you are immune to all but a few spells. Take a weapon with spellblade against those specific spells. If you play it right, the party might not know you even exist, you are just playing the Thrall. Other fun things you can do, add the epic weapon enhancement everdancing blade with your FoP abilities. Now you are a flying weapon all the time. You can go with Warhulk thrall for battle and take over his limited mind to talk it up out of combat. Basically you can go almost anywhere completely undetected and pick a thrall to suit the situation. Other ways to get into the class or build it up. You can replace telepath with the ardent class. They get the ability to manifest powers based on their manifestor level, not their class progression. Good if you are going epic and need more. You can drop the psionics if you wish and go with beguiler and mindbender for telepathy. Marshall is another option to drop into the build for a cha aura. You can also get into the class as a divine caster taking the divine disciple class from Players guide to Faerun. If you are evil, you will become a evil subtyped outsider at the end of the 5th level. It takes much longer, but you can cast spells as well. You can also go with a evil human with the otherworldly feat and the savage species ritual of alignment to get the evil subtype. This costs money though so you have to be starting at 10th level or so to justify the cost. Savage Bard 2/ beguiler 1/ Fiend of Possession 6/ Chameleon 10 or Ur-Priest or any fast track caster/psionic class you choose. So that is how you play your petal at level -1. |
| #14akal-sarisJul 12, 2008 10:42:14 | I'd say whisper gnome, but unfortunately my DM was a little concerned because my sneaky little swordsage was already dominating combat without being a cool race, so I'm stuck with a regular gnome. Stupid ^%*#ing 20ft speed makes jump checks for tiger claw annoying as hell until higher levels, but at least I can create a vole spy network, right? Elf rogues are also surprisingly fun to play in old-school dungeon crawls because they have a secret door radar built into their heads. |
| #15jaronkJul 12, 2008 14:46:10 | My favorite fun sneaky combo right now is Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Varient Swordsage 18. Great for Ninjas. JaronK |
| #16deathletterJul 13, 2008 10:14:24 | Tallfellow Halfling, for some of the reasons stated above. Built in Elf-radar, all the fun of small size. Plus, I enjoy them thematically far more than any other small race. |
| #17NibblerJul 13, 2008 13:32:22 | Lesser tiefling is nice (LA +0). +2 to Dex and Int with darkvision is great for any sneaky skill monkey. Throw the Dark template in (+1) for Hide in Plain Sight and an extra 10' of mobility. |
| #18JanusJonesJul 15, 2008 9:10:37 | Lesser Drow isn't shabby since it allows you to do the Drow Fighter sub-level, which grants Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents and a +2 to initiative in exchange for heavy armor proficiency. Jermlaine deserves mention. Tiny +0 LA fey with +6 Dex. Beguiler from FRCS - Shining South is the best +0 LA race in the world. +6 Dex, +2 Int, -4 Str, +8 racial bonus to hide, small size, bite/claw/claw/tail weapon attack routine, Multiattack as a bonus feat, a climb speed, and true seeing at will. Your DM will outlaw it. Trust me. |
| #19phaedrusxyJul 15, 2008 12:29:44 | Well... they're LA +4, but brownies are pretty good. |
| #20JanusJonesJul 17, 2008 15:30:39 | I forgot Tibbits from the Dragon Mag Compendium. Play a tiny cat. Sneak and claw enemies. Be adorable. :D Oh - and Changelings are ALWAYS great. The disguise ability is limitless fun, if you use it right, and they have a lovely first-level substitution in Races of Eberron with some very nice roguey advantages. Kobolds are great if you're using the "Playing to their Strengths" web enhancement. Add on Dragonwrought and be super-old for the +3 to all mental stats. I'm partial to Jungle Kobolds for their Dex-to-climb and climb speed as a base. You can find them in Unearthed Arcana or on the d20srd. |
| #21doomsoughtJul 17, 2008 16:46:01 | I've done a pretty good Pseudodragon scoutish character (warlock) the +4 racial bonus to hide checks helps too. |
| #22nunkurujiJul 17, 2008 16:51:28 | Dragonwrought Kobold could potentially do the Alter Self thing to go from small to tiny wyrmling dragon for additional sneaky sneak. |
| #23Nox_NoctisAug 08, 2008 21:41:28 | Depending on your reading (the range of the telepathy is unlimited, but only allows communication with the other Dvati; mind sight says nothing about who you can communicate with being a limitation; the other objection I could see is that the telepathy is not a named special quality in itself, but a part of another ability), Dvati (Dragon Compendium) with Mind Sight (Lords of Madness) can pinpoint the location of every sentient creature in existence and determine their intelligence scores. - I'm claiming credit for this combination as I ran a number of searches without finding a trace of it being mentioned before. :P I'd say that makes an excellent tool for "sneaky people." |
| #24empirateAug 09, 2008 10:28:31 | Shadar-Kai (FF) have awesome flavor, as well as good mechanical benefits. Technically, they're LA+1, but they also come with 3 racial HD. Still, extra-sneaky with Hide in Plain Sight and +10 to Hide if not in full daylight!, Also +6 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha are great ability modifiers. |
| #25DheranAug 27, 2008 8:07:42 | Choose Transformation Domain for Alter Self, Polymorph (though at level 5), Shapechange and other goodies. Trickery for the other domain, switch out spontaneous heals/inflicts for spontaneous Transformation goodness. You can be anybody, and anything at any time. Where are you getting this "spontaneous Transformation" stuff from? The Transformation Domain (Races of Eberron, page 180) has as its Granted Power: You cast transmutation spells at +1 caster level. |
| #26dragonamedrakeAug 27, 2008 8:36:58 | What in 'your' (the general community of the CO boards) opinion is the "best" race for building 'scout'-esk characters (in therms of CO), and what is 'your' most fun race you've played as a sneaky character. Builds have been mentioned above but for races its easy. Best Race: Human - For a melee/skill monkey an extra Feat and extra skill point per lvl really cant be beat imo. If you have a high int then Strong Heart Halfling is a good replacement but if your going to be the face for the group Humans are going to be looked upon in a better light in most RP situations. Most Fun: Really this is too vague, and is up to the player. Whatever race you can think up a good back story for and can have fun RPing. Anything with to great a LA will be hard to keep up with the rest of the group however so I would suggest something with a low LA. But basicly no matter what the class you cant go wrong with Human. It might be boring but feats are the bomb. |
| #27DheranAug 27, 2008 9:50:48 | Here's my recommendation, but it's dependent on use of a single feat: Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86), which lets you add your effective Cleric level to your Rogue level for Undead Turning and Sneak Attack dice. Given that, my choice is Aasimar (LA +1, which you buy off for 3,000 XP). Aasimar grants +2 to both WIS and CHA. You then combine Cloistered Cleric and Rogue levels as you see fit. Feats like Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 62-63) leverage your undead turning attempts to put you into full-round sneak attack position pretty much every round for every encounter -- and those turn attempts are dependent on your CHA modifier, which Aasimar boosts. Heightened WIS helps Spot and Listen skills, and CHA benefits Bluff and Use Magic Device (for arcane magic like Alter Self, which with your outsider form is really nifty). Plus, of course, many Clerical spells can help you be a better sneak. |
| #28phaedrusxyAug 27, 2008 11:15:18 | Where are you getting this "spontaneous Transformation" stuff from? The Transformation Domain (Races of Eberron, page 180) has as its There is an alternative class feature that lets you cast spontaneously from a domain instead of Cure/Inflict spells. I forget which book it is from. Forest gnomes are great, and are core (in the MM1). +4 racial bonus to hide, which becomes +8 in wooded areas, the ability to speak with forest animals (as a language, not a Su ability), and Pass without Trace at will. Also, unlike the Whisper Gnome, you don't lose the racial bonus to Illusion save DCs and saving throws against Illusions. They get everything the "normal" Rock Gnome gets... and more. They are better in every way. Statistically, if the DM allows them, you should always use them over a standard gnome. |
| #29thewizardofthecoastAug 27, 2008 11:41:13 | Halfling (in your favourite flavour) or human. Mind you, I always say halfling or human. |
| #30shokatsuryouAug 27, 2008 14:02:15 | Forest gnomes are great, and are core (in the MM1). +4 racial bonus to hide, which becomes +8 in wooded areas, the ability to speak with forest animals (as a language, not a Su ability), and Pass without Trace at will. Also, unlike the Whisper Gnome, you don't lose the racial bonus to Illusion save DCs and saving throws against Illusions. They get everything the "normal" Rock Gnome gets... and more. They are better in every way. Statistically, if the DM allows them, you should always use them over a standard gnome. +1. I really like forest gnomes, especially in an outdoors or forest campaign. The speak with forest animals ability is also nice for a druid (I briefly played a forest gnome druid). If you are playing in the Realms, Lesser Deep Gnomes are also pretty good for a sneaky character. They have a +2 Hide bonus (+4 underground), darkvision & stonecunning (both very nice for an underground scout and trapmonkey), and all of the important rock gnome goodies. They also get +2 to saves versus spells & spell-like and +1 dodge to AC for no apparent reason. Like the forest gnome, they also keep the +1 save DC bonus with illusions. My current character is the sneakiest character I have ever played. He's a lesser deep gnome Beguiler/Shadow Adept/Shadowcraft Mage with a continuous collar of umbral metamorphosis and the Darkstalker feat. Sneaky spells (invisibility, greater invisibility, nondetection, misdirection, disguise self, etc.) + Insidious Magic feat + a Crazy Hide bonus + Darkstalker + Cloak of Shadows ability + Hide in Plain Sight = good times. ![]() |
| #31aod318Aug 27, 2008 14:45:36 | Catfolk for +1LA nets you +4DEX, +2CHA and 40 base move. With the Swift Hunter feat, Ranger/Scout is very tight. The Catfolk Pounce feats works well with the sneaky types. |
| #32MenhirRocksolidAug 28, 2008 10:30:18 | Most fun race: Goblins... So much flavor to play around with. Their racial modifiers are also good for it: Darkvision, small but still 30 ft speed, + on dex and stealth skills, fav class: Rogue) |
| #33bayarSep 05, 2008 4:29:56 | Catfolk for +1LA nets you +4DEX, +2CHA and 40 base move. With the Swift Hunter feat, Ranger/Scout is very tight. The Catfolk Pounce feats works well with the sneaky types. What he said. And Kobolds. More precisely, kobolds with the RoTD Web enhancement 2. They get slight build, which makes them count as tiny for opposed checks if they are advantageous to the character. So yeah, a +8 size bonus to hide.... |
| #34carnivoreSep 05, 2008 15:41:06 | I've done a pretty good Pseudodragon scoutish character (warlock) +1 ... although it has 2 HD(Dragon) and +3 LA... you gain a lot: [indent] Abilities: -4 Str ,+4 Dex ,+2 Con ,+2 Wis Tiny size..A pseudodragon has a body about 1 foot long, with a 2-foot tail. It weights about 7 pounds....... but Tail has 5' reach... and can Threaten and Attack Adjacent Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), fly 60 ft. (good) +4 natural Armor Blindsense 60 ft. darkvision 60 ft. low-light vision immunity to sleep and paralysis spell resistance 19 telepathy 60 ft....... A pseudodragon can communicate telepathically and can also vocalize animal noises. Bonus Feat: Weapon Finnesse Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. Skills: Pseudodragons have a chameleonlike ability that grants them a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In forests or overgrown areas, this bonus improves to +8. [/indent] very nice for 'scouts', rogues and sneaky people :D |
| #35chilepepperSep 05, 2008 23:21:00 | Beguiler from FRCS - Shining South is the best +0 LA race in the world. +6 Dex, +2 Int, -4 Str, +8 racial bonus to hide, small size, bite/claw/claw/tail weapon attack routine, Multiattack as a bonus feat, a climb speed, and true seeing at will. Your DM will outlaw it. Trust me. It's a LA+0 (cohort) just like Petals are. The DM doesn't need to outlaw it, it's already unplayable as a PC race. |