"Draw"-style character...but what next??

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

crimson_lancer

Dec 13, 2011 1:10:51
Class Levels: Human Paragon 1/Duskblade 3/Human Paragon 2
Feats: Power Attack, Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Versatile Spellcaster, Knowledge Devotion, Spring Attack, Leap Attack

This is the basic setup I have for a character who uses Samurai "Draw" techniques, but represented by Charge Optimization. Weapon Damage + Strength + 5d6 Shocking Grasp + 3d6 Blade of Blood + 20 PA, all powered by True Strike, is easy to set up, easy to use, and deals excellent damage for being level 6. A Valorous Weapon or Battle Jump lead to Broken-town, so certainly not hard to improve that aspect of the Build. So my question is this:

What should I do with it next?

I mean, there are tons of options; Tome of Battle, more Gish stuff, PrCs galore. Honestly, though, I'm really just not sure where to go from here. Any ideas on other Charge-based buffs that could improve this significantly, maybe Area of Effect coverage for hordes of baddies, anything at all on what would make this Build either better or round it out in the future wold be seriously appreciated!
#2

Tempest_Stormwind

Dec 13, 2011 11:46:28
The usual quickdraw stunt is Iaijutsu, which is described in Oriental Adventures. Basically, if you can can draw a blade and strike a flat-footed (not merely denied Dexterity, but actual flat-footedness) target in the same round, you do bonus damage based on an Iaijutsu Focus skill check. (Subtract 5 from the check result and divide by 5; that's the number of d6 you roll (max 9)) Human Paragon is unique in that it can choose IF as a class skill or even an Adaptive Learning skill. 

It was periodically popular during the glory days as people discovered more and more ways of actually making it useful. One that was never really explored was simply using Sapphire Nightmare Blade - the most basic Nightmare Blade in the Tome of Battle - since, unlike the more advanced ones, it actually catches the target flat-footed if you succeed the Concentration check.  However, in order to make it work even with SNB, you need one other feat (either Quick Draw or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Gnome Quickrazor - Races of Stone, which is actually a damn good caster weapon), and this probably won't work on a charge since it's a separate standard action.

Setting all that aside, if you're interested in improving the charge aspect alone, get Pounce somehow (the usual way is a 1-level dip into bararian and using the Lion Totem substitution ability in Complete Champion), which will let your charges handle multiple attacks. (Describe them all as aspects of the same attack and you'll have no trouble here). From there, I'd strongly suggest Arcane Strike - duskblades work surprisingly well with this given full base attack and a high number of spell slots.

Another odd possibility is Draconic Claw. I forget if Draconic Heritage specifically requires sorcerer levels or merely any spontaneous arcane casting ability; if it's the latter, you can qualify for Draconic Claw, which gives you a swift-action attack every time you cast a standard-action spell. So you can cast True Strike and instantly Power Attack the guy next to you for your level in PA damage - essentially, you get Smite.

For other classes, I'd suggest either continuing Duskblade (seriously, it's a fine class), or perhaps even aiming for Swiftblade (it's not the greatest for duskblades, but if you can get the prereqs...) or other gish classes. One that I've found to be surprisingly good in single-hit geniuses like this is War Mind, because Sweeping Strike lets that single hit apply equally over two squares. It's hard to use with a charger, though (your charge must be exactly 10' for that ability to still work).

Another alternative is Jade Phoenix Mage, which sort of gives you everything and more. To qualify, consider a one-level dip in either Warblade or Crusader (probably Crusader to conserve actions). In addition to advancing spellcasting, it will also advance your ability to use Desert Wind maneuvers (which include damage-increasing boosts and stances), Devoted Spirit maneuvers (which act like smites and can either heal or defend) - and both of those disciplines have multiple groovy charge abilities in them. (DS's are anti-alignment, DW's are leave-a-trail-of-fire.)
#3

crimson_lancer

Dec 15, 2011 22:09:05
Wow! Well, if anyone knows Chargers, it's you, Tempest. I've actually studied your original Red Hood stuff working on this character, so thanks a ton for the reply!

JPM actually looks really good for this, so I'll see about working in Crusader 2 and then going straight into JPM. Thanks again!
#4

Tempest_Stormwind

Dec 15, 2011 23:52:49
Wow! Well, if anyone knows Chargers, it's you, Tempest. I've actually studied your original Red Hood stuff working on this character, so thanks a ton for the reply!


To be fair, Endaire was the one who preserved it. (To my knowledge, I was the first who did the whole Leap Attack / Shocktrooper + multipliers trick, but a lot of people helped, and he preserved it through a board burp). And I know you were reading it from him, since he gave it the "hood" name. (I always referred to it as the Lancer.) I just wish he'd give himself more credit for it.

JPM actually looks really good for this, so I'll see about working in Crusader 2 and then going straight into JPM. Thanks again!


You're at the sweet spot for that: Crusader 2 after 6 non-crusader levels means that your second-level stance is free to be Thicket of Blades, easily one of the best moves in all of 3.5. Thicket isn't amazingly useful in chargers unless they're doubling as AoO tanks, though it's nearly enough on its own (with no other support than Combat Reflexes + reach) to turn any character into an AoO tank. (Here's an example of a character that does both, although he goes the other way - AoO tanking transitioning into charging. I don't like the power selections now, but they're just gravy anyway.) I'm not convinced any of the other 3rd level crusader stances are as useful for you, though, so you may as well take it and Combat Reflexes to punish anyone for trying to escape from your charge. Remember those AoOs will retain any boosted Power Attack abilities (but not True Strike; this is why I always prefer Shock Trooper over that to get the AB high. The only time I've used True Strike in a practical situation was with Draconic Claw, hence why I suggested it. If you get Pounce, you'll definitely notice the difference).

(Your opening stance should be Leading the Charge, and one of your opening maneuvers should be Battle Leader's Charge; the others are pretty free, but remember to plan ahead: JPM does not advance White Raven, which is where most of the best charge maneuvers are. Desert Wind has Searing Charge, Salamander Charge, and Ring of Fire (there's your AoE - it's not a charge, but it benefits from a lot of the things that chargers like, such as speed boosts and avoiding difficult terrain); Devoted Spirit has the alignment-smite charges... White Raven just adds pure damage. No resistance, no rolling, just pure damage, and a lot of it. (Battle Leader's Charge? 2nd level maneuver? +10 damage? What if I expressed that as +3d6? Or the higher-level version which deals +35? That's +10d6. The White Raven charge maneuvers are uncommonly good on the damage front, especially if the DM follows game precedent and lets that damage multiply.))
#5

aelryinth

Dec 16, 2011 19:02:16
I believe Charge bonuses from Stances fall under the Manuvers/Schools rules and are not multiplied by crits, charges and the like.

That might only apply to Strikes, however.

C'est la vies.

==Aelryinth
#6

crimson_lancer

Dec 17, 2011 13:21:38
Huh. Okay, is it just me, or do Spring Attack and Charging not work together at all? They don't, do they? Hmm...

Well, now I have three open Feat Slots (though honestly, Expeditious Dodge is still pretty awesome). Any ideas? Should I just go for Shock Trooper instead?
#7

Tempest_Stormwind

Dec 17, 2011 14:16:59
Huh. Okay, is it just me, or do Spring Attack and Charging not work together at all? They don't, do they? Hmm...



They don't work, and never have worked. Charging carries very tight restrictions on how you can move.
-You must move at the start of your turn, against a target you have line of sight/effect to. (You can't charge foes behind, say, a Wall of Gloom despite it being intangible.)
-You must move at least 10 feet (and no more than double your speed), and all movement must be in a straight line.
-NOTHING can block your movement - no difficult terrain, no obstacles, no enemies, no allies.
-You MUST move towards the nearest square from which you threaten the enemy.

Spring Attack has NONE of these concerns, but also doesn't benefit from charge boosters. It can be a good feat (which is why I thought you had it), but it's overcosted for its effect (it should be tier 1 as written, it seems; tier 2 if it works like Flyby Attack and allows standard actions instead of attack actions). Realistically, nowadays, it's just a signal that you're taking Elusive Target as a result.

If you're looking to move after a charge, use something like an Anklet of Translocation, which teleports you as a swift action.

Well, now I have three open Feat Slots (though honestly, Expeditious Dodge is still pretty awesome). Any ideas? Should I just go for Shock Trooper instead?


Probably. Either that or diversify into non-charging effects so you're not foiled by any of the charge stoppers. I suggested a few upthread.
#8

crimson_lancer

Dec 17, 2011 21:55:30
Okay, so apparently playing 4th Ed has ruined my understanding of Charging in 3.5, as I didn't realize any of that. Ergh.

I'm thinking I'll just drop Leap Attack and go back to Spring Attack for a more versatile character, especially with access to Arcane Channeling and Maneuevers that take Standard Actions (my DM votes RAI more than RAW). I still really like Jade Phoenix Mage (a Spellstoring Weapon + Arcane Channeling + Arcane Wrath sounds incredibly horrendous here) and the rest of the Build, but the Charge focus doesn't really seem worth it.

Any other ideas on optimizing this guy? Thanks for all the advice so far!
#9

draco1119

Dec 17, 2011 22:39:28
I'm thinking I'll just drop Leap Attack and go back to Spring Attack for a more versatile character, especially with access to Arcane Channeling and Maneuevers that take Standard Actions (my DM votes RAI more than RAW). I still really like Jade Phoenix Mage (a Spellstoring Weapon + Arcane Channeling + Arcane Wrath sounds incredibly horrendous here) and the rest of the Build, but the Charge focus doesn't really seem worth it.

Any other ideas on optimizing this guy? Thanks for all the advice so far!

Blieve it or not, Leap Attack helps you with some of these.  You can jump over obstacles, difficult terrain, and (IIRC) enemies and allies with a high enough jump check.  As long as you end a charge with that jump, you can use Leap Attack to boost your damage output.