So my Op-Fu has failed and I need some help. I had this character concept for an upcoming game and with my mastery of character building it just does not seem to be happening. Any and all help is wanted and appreciated.
So the actual concept was(atleast the part what counts here) to create a character who is a martial character who is trying to get to the point "One strike one kill" I really do not except to get there without breaking the game but it's an in-characater ideal that he strives for.
So here are the rules:
1. Anything from anywhere is fair game but everything also has to be OKd by the GM(He is pretty lenient but see red when RAW is used instead of RAI)
2. 32-point buy
3. Only core races+ Orc and warforged
4. starting from 4th level so it has to be from beound that efective at every level.
What I want from the build to be: (Not everything has to happen it's just and ideal)
1. Atleast an average of d8 as hitdice
2. I really want this to be martial character so no magic(except items), I can live with small amount of psychics
3. 4+int skill points or more
4. Full BAB or close
5. Not just one-trick-pony
6. The damage from one attack should be hole lot better than average blaster mage of the same level.
7. Not too much dipping
8. Offense over defense
9. If the opponent does not go down on the first hit you are not automatically skrewd
10. Absolutely melee character.
So what I was thinking is that there are probably two ways to accomlish this, either the brute type of character or a "martial artist" kind of character. I really couldn't think of anyway to do this with the brute so I concentrated on the latter. I was thinking that ToB classes would probably be quite good foudation since those eliminate the one-trick-pony issue. Sneak attack and the like maybe from sneak attack thug would probably be also a good idea. Maybe even iajutsu focus since that doesn't really need to sacrifice any class levels unless you want to focus in it more by taking 5 levels of Iajutsu master PrC.
Some thing that I have thought about just ideas so no need to include these.
1. Warblade as the foundation seems pretty solid.(I like the disciplines they get more opposed to Swordsage and Crusader)
2. Maybe a dip in swordsage or master of nine just to get assasins stance and some other goodies
3. Saphire Nightmare blade seems like a good low-level option to get a sneak attack.
4. Maybe some critical hit synergy be something to go for.
5. I am somewhat worried what happens when an opponent is immune to sneak attacks and the like.
1) d12 HD.
2) Purely martial. (But see below: You may want to consider Wild Talent.)
3) 4 skill points, and Intelligence synergy.
4) Full base attack.
5) Multiple maneuvers.
6) Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and Iron Heart are all about the One Big Strike. They do NOT outdamage a purely damage focused mage (or even a raging barbarian over time, actually) but they usually carry other effects that make you an important player on the field. Plus, damage mages are self-gimping.
7) Works just fine as a 20-level class or with one or two PrCs.
8) Yup. There are defensive options but there are more offensive ones.
9) See 8. Wall of Blades or Diamond Mind save boosts can prevent this.
10) You aren't even proficient with ranged weapons and have ONE ranged maneuver that amounts to "I throw my sword at him."
Perfect match.
Assuming you can actually get Iaijutsu Focus ranks up (instead of, say, rolling it into Concentration or something similar), you can actually trigger Iaijutsu at will with Sapphire Nightmare Blade (which is unique among ToB maneuvers in that it actually gets the target flat-footed). Just Quick Draw your weapon and then use the maneuver - you meet the requirements to trigger Iaijutsu Focus right there, assuming the Concentration check succeeds. Ways of ensuring this include Wild Talent at low levels (lets you expend your focus to take 15 on a concentration check) and Steady Concentration (take 10 on all Concentration checks ever) at mid levels. These also have great synergy with the Diamond Mind save boosters, which you can use to cover up any weak points in your saves. You can even take both of them and use Wild Talent to qualify for Psychic Renewal, which lets you recover a signature maneuver faster.
Wild Talent also opens up War Mind, which is a great PrC in general. You get a small splash of psionics (mostly self-buffs), general purpose boosts, and - most importantly - Sweeping Strike, which you can combine with martial strikes to attack two targets instead of one with your strikes. This can be somewhat hard to qualify for on its own, but with 14 Intelligence, 2 levels of Psychic Warrior get you two feats and all the skills you need.
Swordsages may not get full base attack, but the Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuver trees are pretty good at helping you "one-shot" bad guys, for example, if the terrain you are fighting in allows for it, all the throws from Setting Sun are great for sending bad guys over cliffs, off ledges, into pits, down chutes, into pools of lava or acid or deep water, into traps, down flights of stairs... etc. and the Shadow Hand maneuvers may not kill them out right but they do debilitate them pretty bad enough for you to follow up and clean their clocks.
Psionic weapon could be a good thematic fit. It might be difficult to fit in without a dip in psychic warrior. With that dip, you could have psionic meditation, psionic weapon, and greater psionic weapon by 6th level.
A frenzied berserker build with Supreme Power Attack is basically a one shot kill for just about everything.
Figure a Strength of 36 while Frenzied, a +5 Valorous Chain of I Hit You.
If you can Power Attack for 20 on a Charge...
that's 2-8 +5 + 80 + 26 basic damage, or 106. x2 for Valorous is 212 average damage. And since he'll have Pounce and Supreme Cleave, anything he kills sends the hit on to the next creature in his reach.
============
The Iajitsu Master/Iajitsu Focus trick can do a lot of damage, but since you are basically limited to 10 x d6+Cha dmg, you probably aren't going to kill anything. Also note that the makers of the PrC and IF rules errata'd Iajitsu duels so they don't activate at 'any' dex-less condition...you actually have to be in a duel.
=====
Another way of doing it is abusing the size rules, Aptitude weapons, and Superior Unarmed Strike. Take SUS, and get an APtitude Greatsword. Apply the level based size increases of SUS to the Greatsword. You end up doing 6-36 dmg with the Greatsword at level 15. Now make it Heavy...9-54. Permanent Enlarge...12-72. Grow to Huge...18-108. Make it to Colossal...24-144. Wield Oversized Weapon...Colossal+ 36-216. Yes, you're wielding a 30' long greatsword that weighs 125x normal weight, but hey, you justify it.
Then abuse Valorous weapons and so forth. Psy Warrior, which can actually self-buff this, is good for this style of build.
=========
If you want ONE ROUND kills, Warblades are really good for that. Dancing Mongoose Rending Girallon whatever super-combo can just start generating sick amounts of damage with Blood in the Water, and if you can get a Stormguard Warrior combo off at levels 15+, you'll kill. A Fighter build with Overwhelming Attack at level 16 and a Robilar's Gambit build can fricassee just about anything by letting himself get hit and slamming back for double dmg. A Diamond Warrior build with a +30 Concentration buffing Ring hitting for 3x a Concentration check can guarantee himself a 210 damage strike at level 20, and as a bonus will never fail a saving throw.
==Aelryinth
Meh.
A frenzied berserker build with Supreme Power Attack is basically a one shot kill for just about everything.
Figure a Strength of 36 while Frenzied, a +5 Valorous Chain of I Hit You.
If you can Power Attack for 20 on a Charge...
that's 2-8 +5 + 80 + 26 basic damage, or 106. x2 for Valorous is 212 average damage. And since he'll have Pounce and Supreme Cleave, anything he kills sends the hit on to the next creature in his reach.
Yep, that works too. Although it's usually best to avoid the frenzy part altogether, since if you step on a tack, "the next creature within reach" will probably bite the dust, and that's probably a teammate.
The Iajitsu Master/Iajitsu Focus trick can do a lot of damage, but since you are basically limited to 10 x d6+Cha dmg, you probably aren't going to kill anything. Also note that the makers of the PrC and IF rules errata'd Iajitsu duels so they don't activate at 'any' dex-less condition...you actually have to be in a duel.
Not according to the OA errata.
You're right, they can't be "denied dexterity" - they need to be flat-footed. Yes, this is the case in a duel (because if you win the Focus-based initiative, you go first, and they haven't acted yet), but there are other ways of catching a target explicitly "flat-footed". That's why Sapphire Nightmare Blade works, but Ruby Nightmare Blade and Diamond Nightmare Blade do not. The latter two deny dexterity (like a feint). The former actually renders the target flat-footed. You can also have an ally use certain Shadow Hand maneuvers on their turn to do it for you.
Plus, there are ways of doing this as a full attack. (Use gnome quickrazors (built-in quickdraw and quicksheath) and either pull tricks from the Other Killer Gnome or the Giantbane feat, or usual ambush tactics). If that's the case, you get 10*(1d6+CHA)*#attacks, which is significant.
Another way of doing it is abusing the size rules, Aptitude weapons, and Superior Unarmed Strike. Take SUS, and get an APtitude Greatsword. Apply the level based size increases of SUS to the Greatsword. You end up doing 6-36 dmg with the Greatsword at level 15. Now make it Heavy...9-54. Permanent Enlarge...12-72. Grow to Huge...18-108. Make it to Colossal...24-144. Wield Oversized Weapon...Colossal+ 36-216. Yes, you're wielding a 30' long greatsword that weighs 125x normal weight, but hey, you justify it.
The attack penalty would be prohibitive for a weapon larger than you, though. Still, I hadn't thought about abusing Aptitude Weapons that way - I keep thinking they work like Weapon Aptitude, when in reality they're much, much better. (Usually I see it applied to Lightning Mace. Although that opens itself up to some pretty spectacular backfires.)
I try to comment on everything.
Yeah warblade is really good class for the concept but only warblade is not going to be able to put out the amounts of damage that I would want to. But that warmind PrC i dig that. The capstone is tempting but I probably cant afford to take the hole 10 levels so level 5 would probably be good dropping point. If I sacrifice 2 feats(Wild talent & educated) I do not even have to take a dip in a psionic class. Altough psionic warrior might be an ok option because of the bonus feats. And I could atleast get iajutsu focus as a permanent class skill with a feat if the combine with concentration does not fly with the GM.
About the save or die abilitys not really fan of those. My bad should have clarified that I was looking a damage based killing blow.
Psionic weapon definetly getting those if i dip in Psionic warrior might even get them anyway.
I played Frenzied berserker at my last game retired the character it was fun to play but the risk of killing your teammates was not worth it. And anyway I want to play something different this time around. The size thing well that just sound silly, not the mechanics part just the absurdity of the swords size. The diamond mind manouver only gets Concentration check*2 damage.
From what i get here is that you could get extra damage with warblade and war mind build normal+10d6(Rabid bear strike)+8d6(iajutsu focus on roll 10)+4d6(Greater psionic weapon)+power attack. I chose delibaretly a "lower" level maneuver since if you put more other levels in here the higher level meuvers are off the arsenal. That would amount about an average of little over 100 wich really is not that good, since you had to get the target flat footed. I am not that familiar with the Psionic warriors/war minds powers that I would know how that efects. This is starting to seem harder than I thought. Maybe if you took 5 levels of iajutsu master you could probaly get around +6 per dice with items or even more. Wich would raise the damage by 48 or more. But the problem still is getting the enemy flat footed since if you use the Sapphire Nightmare Blade you cant use any other maneuvers.
Oh and i noticed that actually the maxium extra damage from iajutsu focus is 9d6 at 50 on the check not 10d6.
Ninja/Assassin. Take the Iajitsu focus route, and its probably worth snagging knowledge devotion too.
Ninja 5/Assassin 10/Ghost Face Kilaaaah 5
5d6 sudden strike, 5d6 sneak attack, +15BAB, (you only make one attack anyway, not a huge disappointment), Death attacks from assassin and GFK, knowledge devotion helps with the attack bonus, and some damage, and 9d6 potential for Iajitsu.
This will be very MAD, so I suggest Str>Wis>Con>Int>Dex>Cha Noting that you probably ought to go for an 8 or 10 cha, and then boost it with items.
Basic tactic. Hide, and stalk. Then as soon as you are seen go invisable. During this time you are doing your death attack assassin charge up, and your knowledge devotion checks. Once charged, go do an iajitsu strike and if you want throw the GFK kill shot in to make them roll a second save.
This build is also viable from level 1 onwards, is really nasty at level 6, which is right about where you are starting. It should be solid for the entire realistic campaign (level 10 or so) and if you luck out, it is playable through 20.
Secondary perks to this build are stuff like poison use, improved uncanny dodge, hide in plain sight, and assassin spells. Note for assassin spells. None have saves, and so you don't actually need an int of 15 or higher. It does help with the death attack save though.
If you want to add some cheese, get a bunch of throwing daggers, as each one can be iajitsued as you draw it to throw. For super cheese, get flasks of acid.
The 'IF only works in a duel' language is from the OA d20 books, not the WoTC OA books. Same people, different label (WoTC didn't want to make the whole Lo5R setting in d20). I.e. they acknowledge they really screwed up on Iajitsu Focus abuse. After all, the best Iajitsu focus build is the samurai with six swords he can quickdraw and use on flat footed opponents, dropping them after administering a strike, and doing repeated strikes.
Not only unrealistic, but against the intent of the ability.
For the size increases, I actually meant the PERSON has to get to Size Huge and Colossal (which a Psi Warrior can do). Wield Oversized Weapon is a -2 to hit.
And note that if you made it to size Colossal, you've got a +24 size bonus to Strength, so the penalty won't be a problem.
Note that this is simply the Weapon-based version of abusing size damage increases for Monk UA damage. It's also done by spamming that +3 size increase dmg Mighty Blow spell from the Draconomicon.
Note: Size increase abuse works with MANY other forms of abuse. It's only a 2 feat investment, after all.
====
If you play Pathfinder, you'd just pick the 2h Weapon wielder Fighter archetype. At level 19, they can choose to do an auto-crit instead of a full attack action. Grab a x3 or x4 crit weapon, and they are rocking 150-200+ dmg with single hits. Heh.
==Aelryinth
Krusk's post
Not really what I am looking for this is an assasin type of character and i am looking for a warrior type. Thanks anyway for your input.
aelryinth's post
Well actually that might be an idea worth looking in to. But I really do not understand hot it works. Okay heavy weapons I found in Magic of faerun, expansion can make you huge if you can use 7 powerpoints in single manifestion. But I do not understand how you can get even bigger since i was atleast under the asumpition that enlarge person does not stack with it? And I really do not have an idea what does superior unarmed strike have to do with it. But if it is possioble to get to even bigger than huge ralatively easy i just might go that route. With Warmind 10/warblade 10
Well, Superior Unarmed Strike is a feat in To9S that lets anyone get a UA damage progression. Starts at d4 and ends at 2-12 dmg at level 15+ after 3 damage progressions (d6,d8, 2d6)
Now, use an Aptitude Weapon to substitute weapon "Greatsword" in for weapon "Unarmed Strike".
You now have a feat called 'Superior Greatsword Strike'.
Now, Greatswords have a starting damage of 2-12, not 1-4.
Three damage progressions later, you've got 2-12 to 6-36 base damage.
If you use a Heavy Greatsword, you get another Size Progression. 8-48.
If you have Wield Oversized Weapon, You get ANOTHER size progression. 12-72.
If you have Enlarge to Size L, you get ANOTHER size progression. 16-96.
If you can get Huge, or to Colossal, two more size progressions are possible. 24-144, 32-192. You'd be swinging a Colossal+ weapon, as big as it gets, and make Titans cry with envy.
And if you really, really want to be sick, you can get the same damage with a bastard sword and do it all one-handed if you like. It just progresses from 1-10, 2-16, 3-24, 4-32 (new base), 6-48, etc.
===Aelryinth
It's probably reasonable to assume that the listed damage is given for Medium creatures and can be adjusted by creature size, but it's still a fairly low base damage and only even reaches the damage of a greatsword of your size at 20th level. The other benefit is explicitly chained to your monk level, which an aptitude weapon doesn't change. Assuming you had one or more levels in monk, your [WEAPON] would deal damage as the unarmed damage of a monk four levels higher than you.
You could consider the aptitude weapon to also be substituting [WEAPON] damage for "unarmed damage" in the feat, but monks don't gain improved [WEAPON] damage, so that would be outright useless. Aptitude weapons allow you to gain be benefit of weapon-specifc feats, but do not allow you to gain the benefit class features like a monk's unarmed strike ability, except via the intermediary of feats (like Superior Unarmed Strike). The monk's unarmed strike ability improves damage with unarmed strikes; it doesn't directly improve the benefit of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, so an aptitude weapon will not help by working with that feat, either (the feat itself just allows you to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes and stops you from provoking an attack of opportunity when making an unarmed strike).
Superior Unarmed Strike could get you up to 2d6 damage with your weapon (adjusted by your size), or could give you [WEAPON] damage equal to the unarmed damage of a monk four levels higher than yourself, but it doesn't appear to give three size increases in damage progression. At best, it will give you damage with the aptitude weapon that's as good as the damage you can deal with an unarmed strike.
I am actually thinking about a great axe insted of greatsword but that only changes the critical modifier and threath range. So a medium heavy great axe does 2d8 damage. Using an oversized weapon gives one size increment. Now depending on if the enlarge person and expansion stackyou get two or three size increaments. So you will be using either Heavy gargantuan greataxe or Colossal with the relative damages of 6d8 and 8d6. Nothing to sneeze at but not really that significant. But when you couple it with Diamond mind maneuvers that multiply your melee attack damage by x2-x4 depending on the actual maneuver. So at the peak it is 24d8 or 32d8 couple that with the fact that your every other bonus is also multiplied(excluding bonuses like sneak attack and the like) Well since it is a two handed weapon and with the war minds chains an bonus from strengt of 15 is not that far fetched. Even excluding the magical properities of the weapon itself and power attack that would make a damage of 84-252(average of 108) or 92-316(average of 204)
EDIT: Not really important conserning the message of the post but anyways. I started checking my plans and noted that the 2xdamage maneuver is 4th level and 4xdamage is 8th level so I really can not afford 10 levels of warmind. But since I require manifestor level 7 to get to huge sized I noticed I can get around that with over channel feat. And luckily the 5th level is a good dropout point in warmind.
a Huge Monk with base d8 dmg deals much more dmg at higher levels then a small monk with d3 base.
Superior Unarmed Strike works on the exact same principle. The starting weapon dmg is 2-12 from the Greatsword, scale as you go. Just because the base dmg is higher does not obviate the progression.
I don't WANT it to work that way, but I am forced to admit it DOES work that way.
I actually have very little problem witha 6-36 dmg greatsword at high levels...it's got flavor, it fits, and its just a damage boost for two feats.
it's all the size bonuses on top of that which make it sick.
==Aelryinth
Slagger, UA weapon dmg is completely based on the original weapon. For monks, this is normally size. A Huge Monk with base d8 dmg deals much more dmg at higher levels then a small monk with d3 base.
Actually, you start with the damage on the monk table, then adjust for size. You don't start with a base value determined by size, then adjust for monk level. This is an important distinction.
The feat says, and I quote, "You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below."
For it to work the way Aelryinth suggests, that table would need to say something like "3rd: Normal, 4th-7th: +1 size, 8th-11th: +2 sizes" and so on, or something to that extent.
Instead it lists specific dice values. Meaning that if you're 3rd level with Superior Unarmed Strike and pick up an aptitude greatsword, that greatsword will actually deal 1d4 damage, as the table shows. As normal with monks (as Maat Mons points out), this is base damage, probably for a Medium character, so it would be adjusted for size after that. However, size itself does not appear anywhere in the feat. Just because the progression happens to be the same doesn't mean it actually is the same.
The Special section needs to be addressed as well. It says you deal unarmed damage as a monk 4 levels higher. Aptitude weapons would let you deal greatsword damage... as a monk 4 levels higher. So unless your monk level factors into your greatsword damage somehow, it wouldn't actually grant extra damage. (Note that Aptitude weapons only transfer feats, not class features, so you can't key the monk's unarmed damage progression or flurry to greatswords.)
EDIT: And I really need to learn to carefully read the entire thread instead of just the most recent posts, as I missed Slagger above. He says pretty much the exact same thing, but clearer.
2-12 is the normal Greatsword damage for a size M character. You sub Greatsword in for IUS in all places, too!
In short, everywhere UA has an effect, you now sub in the Greatsword, and that includes the base dmg. Improved Unarmed Strike is a feat, too. And 'normal damage' for a Medium creature with a Greatsword is 2-12, not 1-4. UA damage is normally based on size, but weapons have size, too...they've just got a much better base then fists do.
Superior US is basically importing the UA damage. In this instance, it would also import the GS damage.
Trust me, I went over the arguments, too. As long as you can change that starting base damage, you're good to go...the normal starting base damage for a Medium creature using a Greatsword gets subbed like anything else.
:P
As for the 'special', that's fine. If you are a monk wielding a Greatsword, you do damage as if you were four levels higher. Since none of the Monk's CLASS ABILITIES work with greatswords, it basically means it doesn't apply. That's got nothing to do with the feat. If the monk's UA going up in level was instead the result of a feat, this would work just fine.
==Aelryinth
Tempest, d4 is the normal UA dmg for a size M character.
1d4 is not the normal unarmed strike damage for a Medium character. Normally, a Medium character deals 1d3 nonlethal damage. With Improved Unarmed Strike, a non-monk Medium character deals 1d3 lethal damage. And for a Medium monk, it varies.
2-12 is the normal Greatsword damage for a size M character. You sub Greatsword in for IUS in all places, too!
That's not the benefit described by the aptitude weapon enchantment. It allows you to apply the benefits of the feat to the aptitude weapon, but it says absolutely nothing about adapting those benefits to the weapon. Some feats will inherently adapt (like Improved Natural Attack, which applies a size increase), but Superior Unarmed Strike isn't written that way.
Nor does the Superior Unarmed Strike feat apply the equivalent of a size increase (not even to the unarmed strikes for which it was designed); apart from the unusual 1d4 starting point its increase corresponds to the unarmed damage progression of the monk, rather than the unarmed damage of creature of larger size.
There is a whole table devoted to Monk damage by size, because it goes up as size goes up. There is no difference between saying I have a Large Fist doing base 1-6 or a Greatsword doing base 2-12. It's still the base damage.
Precedent is clearly there that once you have the base, it modifies just like the size M table.
The size M progression of SUS is clearly a 'virtual size progression.' d4 to d6 to d8 to 2d6 IS the size progression table. Without a size S or L 'pattern' showing that it is not the case, we can dutifully duplicate it by following the size rules.
And thus, you get a 2-12 base damage weapon (greatsword instead of unarmed strike), progressing through size changes.
Your argument doesn't work, because I only need throw a size H or C UA strike in there, with a higher base damage. You either have to say it gains no benefit from SUS, in contrivance of precedent, or that it follows the progression. And once any weapon follows it, then a Greatsword can follow it.
Like I said, I've been through all the arguments. It works. :P
==Aelryinth
The size M progression of SUS is clearly a 'virtual size progression.' d4 to d6 to d8 to 2d6 IS the size progression table. Without a size S or L 'pattern' showing that it is not the case, we can dutifully duplicate it by following the size rules.
It does NOT say anywhere that it is a size progression, even though it clearly follows the same scale. By analogy, if you see a number that will always fall between 0 and 1 (say, your 80% score on a given test), can you conclude that it is actually probability (i.e. "I have an 80% chance of passing!")? Or equal to the percentile your grade falls into (i.e. "80% of the others who took this got my score or lower!")? Of course you can't! All of these things share the same scale (progression), but they mean very, very different things.
SUS just says that "this is your unarmed strike damage at this level". (I agree with you that the medium size is implicit. See below.)
Thus, when you pick up an Aptitude greatsword, it changes that to "this is your {greatsword} damage at this level". Which is uniformly less than the greatsword itself unless you're level 20.
Your argument doesn't work, because I only need throw a size H or C UA strike in there, with a higher base damage. You either have to say it gains no benefit from SUS, in contrivance of precedent, or that it follows the progression. And once any weapon follows it, then a Greatsword can follow it.
As Maat Mons noted, this is your BASE unarmed damage, which is THEN modified by size. You don't look up a separate entry for a "colossal" unarmed strike; you look up the damage for a Medium unarmed strike and apply the size progression rules to it. Medium base comes first, then size. (The columns for monk damage work out to exactly this, by the way; like the Small weapon damage column in the tables, they're almost certainly included as a shortcut. I know that as a new player, I would have expected my halfling rogue's sword damage to be listed on the table.)
So if you take SUS as a level 20 Huge character, your *medium base* unarmed damage is 2d6, which changes due to your Huge size to be 4d6 - exactly what he'd be doing with a Huge greatsword.
Thus, I can say that it does benefit from SUS (in that we dig up the level first, then apply the size increase on the medium base weapon size), which is not one of the options you tried to cram in that false dichotomy.
Once "any {aptitude} weapon" follows the progression on SUS, ANY {aptitude} weapon follows that table just the same way. And it follows it exactly - i.e. any Medium {aptitude} weapon will deal 2d6 base damage at level 20.
In conclusion, it doesn't work the way you want it to. It will provide no benefit whatsoever for a greatsword.
Now, for aptitude kukris, it should provide quite a bit of a benefit. And since that's all base damage, and that multiplies on a critical hit...
The size M progression of SUS is clearly a 'virtual size progression.' d4 to d6 to d8 to 2d6 IS the size progression table.
Superior Unarmed Strike doesn't use that progression. Its progression reads 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6.
If we use the normal 1d3 nonlethal for an unarmed strike and put an extra 1d4 step in between that doesn't normally exist, it matches the unarmed damage progression for a Medium monk, but it does not match progression by size for an unarmed strike (which it would need to do in order to imply progression by size).
I agree with you that the medium size is implicit.
I think this is the one point on which everyone can agree.
That's incorrect. The damage is the base damage of an unarmed strike, which happens to be d4. The d4 damage is derived from it being an unarmed strike (IUS), it is NOT setting the damage of an unarmed strike.
Thus, if you set the Greatsword as the standard, it uses the base damage of a Greatsword, which happens to be 2d6, and then you adjust for size, treating it EXACTLY like an Unarmed Strike.
Improved Greatsword Strike is still going to deal 2-12 dmg.
and d4 to d6 to d8 to d10 to 2d6 is a size progression with one extra step. You'll still end up at 6-36, but there'll be a nice stop at 5-30 along the way (3-18, 4-24, 5-30, 6-36). Furthermore, actual size progressions will still modify the number according to size progressions...note that when I posted those, all the 'real' size mods were done AFTER 15th level, when dmg tops out at 6-36. Thus, all the numbers hold even. It might get a bit confusing doing size mods at lower levels, I agree...
IUS doesn't set the damage of your UA to d4. It sets the damage to the appropriate amount for an Unarmed Strike of the proper size. FOr size M, that's a d4.
Sub Greatsword.
It sets your Improved Greatsword Strike to the appropriate amount for a Greatsword of size M...2-12. Superior Greatsword Strike then modifies that number the exact same way SUS modifies IUS. d4 is not a set number...it is derived from the 'weapon' it is modifying. Change the weapon, the base gets changed, too!
I argued all your points before, Tempest. I lost :P You're leaving 'greatsword' out of subbing for Unarmed Strike at a couple points in your argument.
==Aelryinth
Since I have been informed that the world we will be playing is eberron I thought an orc might be nice since now you could actually play one without everybody automatically truing to slaughter you on sight, besides I like the worlds take on the race. Allthough the -2 to wisdom might be a problem.
So WB= warblade WM=Warmind
WB1:
Feat: educated(needed for quilifying for WM)
Maneuvers: Saphire nightmare blade, Moment of perfect mind, Sudden leap
Stance: Punishing stance
WB2:
Maneuvers: Leading attack
WB3:
Feat: Wild talent(needed for quilifying for WM)
Maneuvers: Mountain hammer
WB4:
Stance: Hunters sense
WB5:
Maneuvers: Bone crusher
Bonus feat: Combat reflexes(if good dex) or improved initiative
WM1:
Feat: Power attack
Powers: Expansion
WM2:
Powers: Force screen
WM3:
WM4:
Feat: Over channel
Powers: Body adjustment
WM5:
WM6:
Powers: Greater concealing amorpha
And that is where I am at I can pretty easily choose maneuvers but I am having a though time thinking about what feats I should get beound this. Any suggestions would be welcome.
The damage is the base damage of an unarmed strike, which happens to be d4. The d4 damage is derived from it being an unarmed strike (IUS), it is NOT setting the damage of an unarmed strike.
Thus, if you set the Greatsword as the standard, it uses the base damage of a Greatsword, which happens to be 2d6, and then you adjust for size, treating it EXACTLY like an Unarmed Strike.
Improved Greatsword Strike is still going to deal 2-12 dmg.
That's an interpretation unsupported by the text of the feat. The feat does not state or imply that it works as a size increase and its erroneous to assume that something is a size increase simply because the number or numerical score of the dice involved increases.
and d4 to d6 to d8 to d10 to 2d6 is a size progression with one extra step. You'll still end up at 6-36, but there'll be a nice stop at 5-30 along the way (3-18, 4-24, 5-30, 6-36).
It's not a size progression "with one extra step"; that's just ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit, and it could be argued to be anything on that basis.
Basically, d4 to d12 means you increase one step along the way every time....50% for a d4. For a 2-12 Great sword, instead of +2 to the die limit that a d4->d6 has, that's an extra d6.
If it went past 2-12, it'd be interesting. But it goes from d4 to 2-12, which is triple the base, so 2-12 goes to 6-36, triple damage.
THEN, you start tacking on size mods, just as you would if size L or H for UA.
If there's another way you can derive the damage progression, I'm all for hearing it.
===Aelryinth
And yet, it follows the standard damage progression rules PRECISELY...just as the size rules for Monk UA damage follow a similar progression.
Except that it doesn't follow the progression precisely, because the size increase for a 1d3 Medium weapon doesn't include 1d10 as a step.
It looks similar to a size progression, just as the normal monk's unarmed damage progression looks similar (but not identical) to a size progression. But merely looking similar doesn't make something a size progression.
If there's another way you can derive the damage progression, I'm all for hearing it.
You don't have another way of deriving one because it doesn't exist, and it doesn't exist because the feat wasn't designed to work with greatswords and therefore didn't include a damage increase table for greatswords. Mechanically, the feat can just cause a Medium greatsword to deal the damage listed on the table.
It's weird and clunky because the feat wasn't made for greatswords; it's the sort of thing that can happen when you apply an unarmed damage feat to a manufactured weapon. This is one of the suboptimal things you can do with the aptitude weapon enhancement.
d4 to d6 to d8 do d10 to 2d6
is mechanically equivalent to
2d6 to 3d6 to 4d6 to 5d6 to 6d6.
Then you start playing with sizes and Heavy and Oversized weapons.
You seem to be arguing that it sets the dmg to d4 base. that's not what it does. It's using the starting base dmg of a Medium IUS. The weapon (IUS) sets the base starting damage, not the feat.
With a Greatsword, it would use the starting damage of a Medium Greatsword.
If for some reason you're arguing that d3 is now the starting point, the damage progression can easily be reworked. d3 is 1/4 of 2-12, just mulitiply the approximate damages by 4.
Hmm.
2-12 to 2-16 to 4-24 to 4-32 to 4-40 to 8-48.
Yikes. I'll stick with the d4 starting point, thanks.
==Aelryinth
Since it does work, and the damage progression I put forth does follow the SUS advancement ratios, I really don't see what your point was, Slagger?
The aptitude weapon enhancement allows you to apply the actual benefit of the feat, not what you happen to think is equivalent or a similar ratio. Nowhere does the enhancement suggest that you alter the feat or substitute any part of the aptitude weapon statistics for the statistics of the weapon to which the feat normally applies.
You seem to be arguing that it sets the dmg to d4 base. that's not what it does. It's using the starting base dmg of a Medium IUS. The weapon (IUS) sets the base starting damage, not the feat.
The feat sets that damage because that's what it says it does. Whether or not you happen to think that choice was based on the standard unarmed strike damage makes no difference to the benefit described by the feat.
With a Greatsword, it would use the starting damage of a Medium Greatsword.
Why would it? The aptitude weapon enhancement only says that you can apply the benefits of the feat, not that you can alter any part of it to what you think it should be to suit the weapon in question, and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat certainly doesn't say anything like that.
If for some reason you're arguing that d3 is now the starting point, the damage progression can easily be reworked. d3 is 1/4 of 2-12, just mulitiply the approximate damages by 4.
You seem to just be making up your own vague interpretation of what you think the rules are doing instead of reading the actual text of the feats and abilities involved and applying them as they're described.
To perhaps clarify the difference here, let's look at the feat Fists of Iron (from Complete Warrior), which is likewise used for unarmed attacks, but could arguably be applied to a greatsword using the aptitude weapon enhancement.
According to its description, it adds an extra 1d6 damage to an unarmed attack. If we were to apply it to a greatsword, how much extra damage does it deal?
By your interpretation, a Size L or H UA would get no benefit from SUS until level 10+, because they've already got higher damage.
That is clearly against precedent. Precedent is base UA damage, modify it by size, then take that damage and progress it...in that order.
Yet EVEN IF you deny size enhancements, it's still operating off base UA damage for a size M creature from IUS. Change the weapon from IUS to Greatsword and the damage changes with it. IUS dmg for a size M IS d4. Greatsword dmg for a size M IS 2d6. It's perfectly portable.
APtitude subs in Greatsword. Take base Greatsword damage, modify it by size (m), take that damage and progress it.
I dunno why you're arguing so hard against it, honestly. I repeat, I used all your arguments, and they just don't work.
Now, would I LET them work? I don't know, in my own game. I kind of like base weapon damage improving by level...it makes the weapon important once again, whereas the only thing important at higher levels now tends to be threat range.
===Aelryinth
Precedent is base UA damage, modify it by size, then take that damage and progress it...in that order.
As I already said, that's not the order.
For a monk's unarmed damage, first it is set to the value on the table, taking into account only level, then it is adjusted for size. What your unarmed damage was before is irrelevant. The value is thrown away and replaced with the one on the table. This doesn't make size irrelevant, because the adjustment for size happens second.
This thing about modifying for size followed by adjusting for monk level is something you made up. It bears no resemblance to anything in the rules, and I'm baffled as to how you came to believe things work that way and how you've continued to believe it after having it explained to you so many times.
Fists of Iron is not setting damage, it's adding damage. You'd get +1d6. Nowhere is base dmg of UA a factor.
If I treat it as the equivalent (as you've been doing) then a "Greatsword of Iron" should add an equivalent amount of extra damage. If the extra damage for "Fists" (+1d6) is equal to the damage of "Fists" two sizes higher (1d3), shouldn't the extra damage for a greatsword and a monk's unarmed strike also be equivalent to two sizes higher (+4d6 for greatsword, +2d6 to +4d8 for monk)?
At least, that's the way your current argument about Superior Unarmed Strike reads.
By your interpretation, a Size L or H UA would get no benefit from SUS until level 10+, because they've already got higher damage.
That is correct; that's exactly what the text of the feat says. Technically, it does not even describe a substitution for different sizes; it's quite possibly a houseruling that we all find acceptable, but it's definitely not supported by the RAW. Except for the monk advancement part, of course, where the handling of larger creatures is already built into the class side of things.
That is clearly against precedent. Precedent is base UA damage, modify it by size, then take that damage and progress it...in that order.
What precedent? Superior Unarmed Strike offers two unrelated increases (by table, or by monk level, neither of which addresses size) and the regular monk describes the total effect rather than applying separate steps for size and advancement.
Change the weapon from IUS to Greatsword and the damage changes with it.
Nowhere is it even suggested by the aptitude weapon enhancement or Superior Unarmed Strike feat that you substitute greatsword damage.
APtitude subs in Greatsword. Take base Greatsword damage, modify it by size (m), take that damage and progress it.
Again, where have you seen even a single line of text (not just speculation) that tells you to substitute the weapon damage?
SUS advances the damage of a weapon...Improved unarmed Strike. That is the entirety of the Feat. It starts with IUS base dmg, and advances it from there.
Nowhere in APtitude is it implied that it would not work exactly as I have stated. The fact you are working with the base dmg of a greatsword to start with is no different then if you were working as a Size L UA to start with...it subs in, and off you go.
Your saying that size L+ UA's get reduced benefit from this feat is against Precedent.
Maat saying that you take size into account after progression is ignoring the rules for a progression. Progressions start at first level, and they work off a base UA dmg just like anything else.
Your example with a +1d6 is a straw man. The effect of that feat is to add a fixed amount of damage. The effect of SUS is to allow a damage progression for UA. That is two VERY different things.
Monk size precedents clearly establish that changing the starting base damage changes the progression numbers. Changing the starting dmg from a size M UA strike to a size M Greatsword clearly changes the starting damage, and the progression would change.
This 'sets damage to' argument isn't flying. You are ignoring the power of Aptitude. Greatsword would get the same benefits from the feat that UA would get...and by your explanation, it would get NO benefits whatsoever. That is clearly against what Aptitude allows to happen. Your argument is that SUS 'sets' damage, ignoring precedent, and my argument is that it establishes a damage progression, which follows precedent.
is this effect clearly more powerful then intended? Yes. that's why APtitude is usually nerfed and house-ruled. There's far more broken feats in other directions (Tempest just brought up the Shield Mastery feat, brrrr).
But it works exactly as I've established.
===Aelryinth
Nowhere in APtitude is it implied that it would not work exactly as I have stated.
And nowhere is it stated that it does... in fact your entire argument is based on the idea that it works in the same way as parallel progressions. You refuse to accept logic AGAIN, as I have seen a few times now.
Your argument is simple:
A = C
B is similar to A
Therefore B=C
This is fallacy
That's just simply not true. Ultimately, I fail to see how your arguement flies. You're happy to substitute greatsword into Superior unarmed strike but not into improved unarmed strike.
Now the wording to SUS is:
Benefit: You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, AS SHOWN on the table below... followed by a table.
So it's not a progression... it sets the damage first. So an aptitude greatsword would deal damage equal to the amount on the table. Not on some theoretical progression derived from a similar progression by ignoring a certain step.
Now then, you ay these arguments have been used before... alright. PROVE IT. You have never once given proof when you've been argued against, yes you're a good optimizer, but you can't take it when you're wrong.
---------
To the thread starter, I'd ignore this idea... some DM's may let it fly, I can't see how it works by RAW or RAI... but ultimately just avoid it to avoid a sticky situation
Your example with a +1d6 is a straw man. The effect of that feat is to add a fixed amount of damage. The effect of SUS is to allow a damage progression for UA. That is two VERY different things.
Mechanically speaking, the effect of Superior Unarmed Strike is also fixed. It provides a fixed progression of damage (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6) regardless of the weapon used, but with a special dispensation made for monks. Nowhere does it state "adjust this damage if you're using a different weapon".
Monk size precedents clearly establish that changing the starting base damage changes the progression numbers. Changing the starting dmg from a size M UA strike to a size M Greatsword clearly changes the starting damage, and the progression would change.
You haven't established that the starting damage would change; your idea that you substitute greatsword damage for unarmed strike damage is currently without any kind of foundation in the rules.
The monk progressions establish that a monk can have a different progression; no more, no less.
This 'sets damage to' argument isn't flying. You are ignoring the power of Aptitude. Greatsword would get the same benefits from the feat that UA would get...and by your explanation, it would get NO benefits whatsoever.
The "benefit" is to give the listed damage; it just happens to be useless for a greatsword, because Superior Unarmed Strike wasn't written for greatswords. It's useless because the feat makes no provision for the affected weapon to deal more than the listed damage except when a monk is involved.
It's like applying the "benefit" of Short Haft to a kusari-gama; functionally useless because the feat wasn't designed for it and therefore doesn't take it into account.
That is clearly against what Aptitude allows to happen. Your argument is that SUS 'sets' damage, ignoring precedent, and my argument is that it establishes a damage progression, which follows precedent.
The established precedent is that feats do exactly what they say they do, just as you're happy to do with Fists of Iron; adding exactly +1d6 is mechanically correct, since that's what the text says. By that precedent, setting your aptitude weapon greatsword damage to 1d4 at 3rd level is also exactly correct, even if it's not useful.
is this effect clearly more powerful then intended? Yes. that's why APtitude is usually nerfed and house-ruled. There's far more broken feats in other directions (Tempest just brought up the Shield Mastery feat, brrrr).
It's not "more powerful than intended", you've just attached yourself to an incorrect and baseless interpretation as if it was mimic drenched in superglue.
The presence of other feats that might potentially be broken is irrelevant; there are also far more useless feat combinations in other directions.
Nowhere in APtitude is it implied that it would not work exactly as I have stated.
No one cares what the rules imply. What matters is what they say. I don't pay money for a set of rules, to then have to guess what they mean.
SUS says "You deal damage based on this chart". That means that you deal damage based on that chart. Not other stuff.
Just to prove the point... an aptitude greatsword would read:
Benefit: You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes Greatsword, as shown on the table below...
This is where the substitution happens... which then means it follows the table given, and is then modified by size.
This could be really nice with aptitude Kukri's, punching daggers ect... (Literally punching daggers) just for a laugh
if you are NOT using the damage of a size M UA to start your progression of damage, what happens?
Exactly the same thing as happens if you change your size. Your starting damage changes, the progression changes to accomodate it.
That is precedent. None of your arguments make sense in that respect. That table starts with the UA dmg of a size M, because it is modifying UA damage. Aptitude would mean it starts with the Greatsword damage of a size M, subbing for Unarmed Strike in all ways.
What you are basically saying is that Aptitude does not have the effect that it is designed to have, which is to shift feats that affect some weapons so that they affect others instead.
The 'effect' of SUS is to establish a damage progression, not to set an absolute damage per level. Precedent says the damage changes for UA if you shift size, so it should also shift if you use some other weapon in place of UA, Large UA, small UA, etc, accomodating the new base damage and progressing from there.
The monk damage add-on is a hand waver because SUS is inferior to Monk damage at all levels, and is designed to be so. It's in there to give Monks a reason to take the feat.
If you are saying that SUS does not accomodate size changes to UA, I do not believe you. You are ignoring Precedent.
As it adjusts the damage for size changes, it would adjust the damage for using a Greatsword. Thematically, there is no difference between a Colossal fist and a Greatsword.
Once starting damage is established, the progression begins and accomodates the change.
It's all precedent. So, no, your arguments don't hold water against established rules.
If you want to ignore precedent and say SUS is useless to size L UA's, and massively powerful to size F UA's, then you've got an argument. But I really don't see Sprites flying around doing the same UA damage as Ogres at level 15, you know? Nor do I see chopsticks doing the same damage as knives, katars, tetsubo and greatswords at level 15, feat or no.
Your logic is inherently unbalanced and unequal. By this feat and your wording, a size T monk deals more damage following the SUS progression then they can get with Monk levels!
===Aelryinth
Just to reiterate what Krusk and I... and everyone else has said:
Just to prove the point... an aptitude greatsword would read:
Benefit: You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes Greatsword, as shown on the table below...
This is where the substitution happens... which then means it follows the table given, and is then modified by size.
This could be really nice with aptitude Kukri's, punching daggers ect... (Literally punching daggers) just for a laugh
And it would sub in the greatsword DAMAGE, as well as the greatsword NAME, instead of the UA damage! The one IS tied to the other, you know...you are somehow trying to infer that they are not.
==Aelryinth
And it would sub in the greatsword DAMAGE, as well as the greatsword NAME, instead of the UA damage! The one IS tied to the other, you know...you are somehow trying to infer that they are not.
==Aelryinth
They would do exactly the same thing.
"...unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below."
You sub in unarmed strike and unarmed strike damage (1d3 for a medium creature, even with Improved Unarmed, assuming no monk), and it's overwritten with the value on the table (1d4 at lowest levels).
If you're larger than Medium, you then apply size advances to the 1d4 as normal.
So let's Aptitude it...
"...greatsword, as shown on the table below."
You sub in greatsword and greatsword damage (2d6 for a medium creature), and it's overwritten with the value on the table (1d4 at lowest levels).
If you're larger than Medium, you then apply size advances to the 1d4 as normal.
See?
And it would sub in the greatsword DAMAGE, as well as the greatsword NAME, instead of the UA damage! The one IS tied to the other, you know...you are somehow trying to infer that they are not.
To put differently (from my own viewpoint) what Tempest has said, the substitution of greatsword damage happens on the weapon, not the feat; the weapon is starting with different damage because it's a different weapon (it starts with 2d6 damage instead of 1d3). The damage with which it is replaced by the feat doesn't change.
Ergo, starting base damage has to apply, and the feat is grabbing the d4 dmg from SUS, so it would grab the 2d6 dmg from a greatsword.
==Aelryinth
LOL, Slagger. And your rules are inconsistent rules for making buildings six feet wide and polka dot underground, when we want them four feet tall and red!
If we look at buildings and see that they actually are six feet wide, polka-dotted, and underground it remains an observable fact, no matter how we try to explain that they should be four feet tall and bright red. Our conclusions must explain the evidence we can observe, even if the result seems inconsistent or implausible to us.
However, your example needs work, since it's possible for a single building to be six feet wide, four feet wall, covered in a pattern of bright red on bright red polka dots (presumably slightly different shades of red), and underground.
The follow-up argument that it will only adjust for 'size' increases of whatever weapon is involved, and 'set' the weapon to a base d4, also falls flat. That's effectively applying size mods twice. Doesn't jive, is found nowhere else in the rules, and flat out doesn't work.
And again, we look to the monk. Following the progression the way you're applying it (applying size first, then adjusting for what you think the progression should be) doesn't produce the official values for a Large monk. Since your method doesn't produce the official results which we know to be correct, your method is wrong.
Applying the size modifiers once (after other modifications, including the monk's damage progression) to a Medium unarmed strike produces the values we see for the Large monk. Therefore, the rules support this method. To demonstrate that:
Your method says that a 4th-level Large monk should be adjusted for size, and then progress just like a Medium monk; if you start a Large monk at 1d8 (with the size modifiers already included), she should progress to 1d10 as the next step, following exactly the same rate of improvement as the regular monk. But because the official table listing damage for a Large 4th-level monk says that the next step is 2d6 damage, this method is wrong.
Our method says that a 4th-level Large monk should progress as a Medium monk, then receive her size adjustment at the end; if you start a Large monk at 1d6 (without size modifiers), she should progress to 1d8 as the next step, then receive her size adjustment, making her damage 2d6. Since 2d6 is the official value specified for the damage of a Large 4th-level monk, this method is supported by the rules.
Relying on the d10 interchange to bork a damage progression argument isn't very valid, either, ;)
If you have to ignore part of the given rules to make your method work, there's a problem with your method.
I'm not talking about size. I'm not talking about bonus damage. I asked you two direct, concise questions and you avoided them.
You still need to explain:
- Why you think this example, and only this example, will shift to match whatever weapon feeds into it, instead of applying the numbers as written to a new weapon.
- How you derived the hypothetical damage progression for the greatsword in particular, since the exact progression in SUS doesn't match up to any established progression.
The "progression" I'm referring to is for a +1 Aptitude greatsword - a Medium weapon used by a Medium user with Superior Unarmed Strike, and nothing else added to the equation. Why does SUS change its explicitly listed numbers when you plug a greatsword into it, and not any other feat with explicit numbers? (The only reason I listed Fists of Iron or Blood-Spiked Charger is that they were other examples of feats that had explicit dice listed within them.) Also, how did you derive the damage table the greatsword would use in the first place, since the SUS table doesn't match any other progression in the game? (In other wordds, what would this weapon's damage be at levels 3, 4, 8, 12, and 16? Please express this using the "d" notation, instead of damage ranges, so it's all entirely clear what's going on.)
Until you answer these, I will continue to pester you, and will not reply to new points you raise (even if they're patently incorrect - I'm not making any confusion between base and bonus damage here, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that in my writing.). If you are demonstrably making stuff up on either point, your entire argument falls apart (although it is more robust to failing the second point than the first).
Until you answer these, I will continue to pester you, and will not reply to new points you raise (even if they're patently incorrect - I'm not making any confusion between base and bonus damage here, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that in my writing.). If you are demonstrably making stuff up on either point, your entire argument falls apart (although it is more robust to failing the second point than the first).
Back to the topic. Is there another way a character can get Pounce apart from the sub level of barbarian?
Thanks.
Ahem...
Back to the topic. Is there another way a character can get Pounce apart from the sub level of barbarian?
Thanks.
Here's a compilation I put together when working on the Lancer (circa Complete Adventurer). I wrote this pre-Sandstorm, and just kind of stopped updating it since most people at that point were relying on psionic lion's charge, shapeshifting, or pseudopounces (like Dervish Dance). Then Complete Champion happened and made it all pointless.
The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks
(by approximate level of availability; missing Sandstorm, Lost Empires of Faerun, Lords of Madness, Heroes of Battle, Champions of Ruin)
NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE.
Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used.
1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Totem Barbarian, class variant, Complete Champion
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)
2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)
4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)
5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 2th level ranger spell, Spell Compendium)
5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine), only after using wildshape, see text
6) Bestial charge, feat, Complete Champion
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)
11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)
11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)
13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)
17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)
21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)
Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves).
Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters.
With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible.
Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging):
Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA, possibly others)
Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH)
Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV)
Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE), ecl 11
Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South)
Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV)
Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH)
Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD)
If you ever need more like this, please consider Surreal's Lists Of Stuff, aka the Surrealdex, which is utterly invaluable as an optimizer.