Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 akakagewarrior Mar 15, 2010 10:56:06	Hi, a friend of mine starts a new 3e5 campaign, and I haven't played that for 3 years now. We're starting at level 3, stats rolled: 12, 13, 13, 16, 16, 17 I'd like to play a non-divine spellcaster, but pure wizards and sorcerers are too squishy for my taste. On the other hand, losing spellcaster levels - you know what I mean... The PC should be playable from level 3 on, and starting to really blast from level ~8 on. Here are the limitations: race: human, elf, half-elf, half-orc other rules: PHB 1 & 2 + complete series "only" Thanks, AKW
#2 ashern Mar 15, 2010 12:03:49	If you really have to blast I'd suggest a warmage if you actually want to go with a caster type.  Their +int to damage class ability, along with the fact that they get armored mage means that later on, if you burn a feat, you can cast in fullplate without worrying.  Their spell list is fairly limited though. If you're not completely set on an actual "caster" I'd suggest warlock for blasting.  They get fun eldritch blasts all day long, and can add a good number of magical riders to their effects.
#3 Senevri Mar 15, 2010 12:04:49	How many completes? People keep dropping that title and meaning "except for mage, psionic, scoundrel, champion...." Well, a Gnome God would serve you well... a decent CON goes a long way, and DEX isn't as important for a God. Oh, never mind - I see your race limitations. Not  PHB2 has Duskblade Mage has Stalwart Sorcerer. YMMV. For low levels, which will pass, there are many things money can buy:  - get armor and shield, and use non-somatic spells - get a dog or two. If you haven't forbidden necromancy, Bear's Endurance + False Life will effectively negate any HP difference if needed... except second level is completely filled with tasty spells, so that's more of when 2nd level spells start to loose their relative oomph.   No half-orc - 3.5 Half-orcs effectively have "No arcane casting for you, nyah nyah!" stats.   If you expect levels 11+ to be a big part of the game, consider being a bard and becoming a sublime chord later on. A Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturgist 5/Sublime Chord can be a powerful blaster, mailman or gish, albeit may require practiced spellcaster on Sublime Chord, depending on how your DM reads lyric thaum...
#4 uglyvan Mar 15, 2010 12:21:07	Hi, a friend of mine starts a new 3e5 campaign, and I haven't played that for 3 years now. We're starting at level 3, stats rolled: 12, 13, 13, 16, 16, 17 I'd like to play a non-divine spellcaster, but pure wizards and sorcerers are too squishy for my taste. On the other hand, losing spellcaster levels - you know what I mean... The PC should be playable from level 3 on, and starting to really blast from level ~8 on. Here are the limitations: race: human, elf, half-elf, half-orc other rules: PHB 1 & 2 + complete series "only" Thanks, AKW alternate system to stats roll: roll a number of d6T until you reach 100+; what is a d6T: a 1 reads 3 a 2 reads 3 a 3 reads 3 a 4 reads 4 a 5 reads 5 a 6 reads 6 count the number of d6T rolled; average is 25d6T (so you have 25 points), but you can have as low as 17 points (DnD 4E method 2) and as high as 34 points (if you roll only 1s',2s',3s')...
#5 akakagewarrior Mar 15, 2010 14:51:59	If you really have to blast I'd suggest a warmage if you actually want to go with a caster type.  Their +int to damage class ability, along with the fact that they get armored mage means that later on, if you burn a feat, you can cast in fullplate without worrying.  Their spell list is fairly limited though. If you're not completely set on an actual "caster" I'd suggest warlock for blasting.  They get fun eldritch blasts all day long, and can add a good number of magical riders to their effects. thanks, I'll have a look at warmage and warlock.
#6 akakagewarrior Mar 15, 2010 14:53:37	How many completes? People keep dropping that title and meaning "except for mage, psionic, scoundrel, champion...." Well, a Gnome God would serve you well... a decent CON goes a long way, and DEX isn't as important for a God. Oh, never mind - I see your race limitations. Not  PHB2 has Duskblade Mage has Stalwart Sorcerer. YMMV. For low levels, which will pass, there are many things money can buy:  - get armor and shield, and use non-somatic spells - get a dog or two. If you haven't forbidden necromancy, Bear's Endurance + False Life will effectively negate any HP difference if needed... except second level is completely filled with tasty spells, so that's more of when 2nd level spells start to loose their relative oomph.   No half-orc - 3.5 Half-orcs effectively have "No arcane casting for you, nyah nyah!" stats.   If you expect levels 11+ to be a big part of the game, consider being a bard and becoming a sublime chord later on. A Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturgist 5/Sublime Chord can be a powerful blaster, mailman or gish, albeit may require practiced spellcaster on Sublime Chord, depending on how your DM reads lyric thaum... all completes except psionics, I forgot... no gnomes! I'll have another look at the bard spell list!
#7 Chosenofragnarok Mar 15, 2010 15:31:10	I would sugest duskblade. Blasty esc armoured mage with a d8 or d10 hit dice... there pritty decent for what you want.
#8 u-233 Mar 15, 2010 17:20:16	If you want almost a pure mage with just a little less squishiness then Beguiler base class from PHB2 might be good enough.  They're good spontaneous arcane casters with intelligence as their main stat.  Their main drawback is the lack of damage dealing spells - no blasting allowed.  They get d6 hit dice and light armor with no arcane spell failure, so they're significantly less squishy than wizards or sorcerers.  They also get 6+int skill points / level, trapfinding, and casting bonuses that vaguelly analgous to an arcane version of sneak attack.  Overall, they're almost like a rogue/wizard gestalt with spontaneous casting thrown in.  On the other hand if you want blasting and are willing to sacrifice most spellcasting to get it, then consider the Dragonfire Adept base class.  Oh wait, that's from Dragon Magic, you said PHB 1-2 and complete * except psionic.  In that case, consider Warlock (from Complete Arcane) for blasting instead.  You effectively get infinite spell slots and are a lot less squishy than any normal primary arcane caster type.  d6 hit dice, light armor with no arcane spell failure, plus DR/cold-iron starting at 3rd level and limited fast healing starting at 8th level.  The disadvantage is your arcane abilities are a lot less versatile than other primary arcane types.  If you want to go the PrC route then maybe something like fighter 1 / wizard 6 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 3 / eldritch knight 9, but I would prefer to start at a level higher then 3 when following that kind of path.  Or maybe (editted) some combination of dragon disciple, abjurant champion, or unseen seer on top of either beguiler or fighter+sorcerer.
#9 Endarire Mar 16, 2010 23:01:26	A Human Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt is far less squishy.  Mage armor, mirror image, alter self, fly, shield, polymorph...  make you about as resilient as a meat shield.  Mage armor and shield will hold you until about level 3.  Mirror image is one uber spell to keep you alive. A greater concern is having enough stamina to last you through every fight.  My Gray Elf Conjurer took the feat Storm Bolt (Complete Mage) so he could do something besides sit back and watch a comedy of errors with glitterdust, a flurry of physical damage with haste, and a Lovecraftian experience with Evard's black tentacles.
#10 akakagewarrior Mar 22, 2010 10:28:27	so far... I'm still collecting my books, which I borrowed to several friends in 2007 before moving... it looks like the abjurant champion is a must for me, conjurer with abrupt jaunt (I never liked familiars!) looks good, too - if I go wizard.
#11 streamofthesky Mar 22, 2010 12:35:15	I recommend Stalwart Sorcerer as well, from C.Mage.  Lose a higest level spell known (floats up as you level, but not until you know at least 2 spells of a given level) and get +2 hp per level.  I think that's a very good deal.  It also combines with UA's Battle Sorcerer (d8 HD, among other things) variant quite well, if you don't mind losing even more spells. Dungeonscape has a Spell Shield alternate class feature for Sorcerers that costs your familiar.  As an immediate action, you can lose a spell, and have to make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level, I think).  you reduce the damage you take by 5 x spell level.  It gets costly, and is much better for an NPC boss than a PC in a party, but still useful. The Reserve feat Minor Shapechange from C.mage is practically a required feat for the type of character you're looking for, and could be taken with your level 9 feat.  It lets you gain temp hp equal to your HD as a swift action for a few rounds.  Since you can just re-applying it every few rounds as you need a new batch of temp hp, it's sort of like an unlimited Improved Toughness feat. Races of the Dragon has the Wings of Cover sorcerer-only spell, which is hideously broken (though no more so than a Conjuror wizard's  Abrupt Jaunt variant, if the DM allows that garbage).  Level 2, immediate action.  You surround yourself with wings of force, completely blocking line of sight and effect to you for one instant.  This automatically negates any spell cast against you, aside from area spells (you do get a cover bonus on reflex saves for those, though), even ones MUCH higher in level.  Just as importantly, you basically screw the other person out of his action for the turn in many cases.  Charge, standard action spell, whatever.  No effect! You can make a VERY hardy sorcerer if you were inclined to.
#12 akakagewarrior Mar 22, 2010 17:11:25	I recommend Stalwart Sorcerer as well, from C.Mage.  Lose a higest level spell known (floats up as you level, but not until you know at least 2 spells of a given level) and get +2 hp per level.  I think that's a very good deal.  It also combines with UA's Battle Sorcerer (d8 HD, among other things) variant quite well, if you don't mind losing even more spells. Dungeonscape has a Spell Shield alternate class feature for Sorcerers that costs your familiar.  As an immediate action, you can lose a spell, and have to make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level, I think).  you reduce the damage you take by 5 x spell level.  It gets costly, and is much better for an NPC boss than a PC in a party, but still useful. The Reserve feat Minor Shapechange from C.mage is practically a required feat for the type of character you're looking for, and could be taken with your level 9 feat.  It lets you gain temp hp equal to your HD as a swift action for a few rounds.  Since you can just re-applying it every few rounds as you need a new batch of temp hp, it's sort of like an unlimited Improved Toughness feat. Races of the Dragon has the Wings of Cover sorcerer-only spell, which is hideously broken (though no more so than a Conjuror wizard's  Abrupt Jaunt variant, if the DM allows that garbage).  Level 2, immediate action.  You surround yourself with wings of force, completely blocking line of sight and effect to you for one instant.  This automatically negates any spell cast against you, aside from area spells (you do get a cover bonus on reflex saves for those, though), even ones MUCH higher in level.  Just as importantly, you basically screw the other person out of his action for the turn in many cases.  Charge, standard action spell, whatever.  No effect! You can make a VERY hardy sorcerer if you were inclined to. THAAAHAAANKS! so would it be by the rules to play a metamagic (PHB2, no familiar) stalwart (compl mage) battle sorcerer (UA) ? if the DM allows - but does that make sense? having a lousy number of spells, but 1d8+2 hp / level, light armor, martial weapon incl weapon focus... wow...
#13 streamofthesky Mar 22, 2010 21:07:33	Yes, you can do that legally. My friend made a pretty sweet fighting sorcerer using a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer.  In his case, he really likes draconic stuff, so he took a lot of draconic feats to get a bunch of natural armor and a swift action claw attack whenever he cast a spell, among other things.  He dipped Paladin 2 to add charisma to saves and pick up armor proficiency (mithral and twilight is a wonderful armor combo).  As a sorc, he gave up his Familiar for Transmutation Focus Caster variant, which gave some benefits to his transmutation spells.  Mainly, when he cast a non-personal transmutation spell, he could affect +1 target, which made him a good party buffer, too.  (His favorite transmutation spells to share: Nerveskitter, Spiderskin, Enlarge Person, Haste, Heroics.)
#14 ikildkenny Mar 23, 2010 1:43:25	Indeed, stacking of ACFs is valiable, as long as they do not cancel out each others "Requirements" anyways, consider Divine Companion (CC) - imho superior to Metamagic, since you can use some of your spell slots in a defensive matter (Deflection Bonus und Saves) I played a sorcerer-Gishtype with the said ACFs once and it was awesome - allthough i Startet out with a lvl of Fighter: Fighter1/StalwartBattleSorcerer with Divine Companion 4/Spellsword1/Abjurant champion5 The remaining caracter is really up to one's flavor .. Divine Crusader2/Mystic Thurge7 is quite an interesting approach, as is taking a 5th lvl and exchange one spell known on every level for a domain (and add domain spells to your spells known list) gaining Divine Power and Magic Vestment from the War Domain ... and a second weapon focus as a little Bonus
#15 empirate Mar 23, 2010 10:34:43	Whatever you do, don't play a Warmage. Those blow goats for pocket change, you know.
#16 akakagewarrior Mar 23, 2010 14:59:45	well, yeah, warmage has too limited spell list for my taste. I'm just checking divine companion, looks good too! what about the feat "Precocious Apprentice" from CA? would that work with the loss of spell slots due to playing stalwart or battle sorcerer?
#17 phaedrusxy Mar 23, 2010 15:15:19	well, yeah, warmage has too limited spell list for my taste. I'm just checking divine companion, looks good too! what about the feat "Precocious Apprentice" from CA? would that work with the loss of spell slots due to playing stalwart or battle sorcerer? It only gives you one bonus 2nd level spell slot. That's not worth a feat. Personally, I think stalwart is worth it, IF for some reason you plan to take a lot of sorcerer levels, but battle sorcerer basically never is. The cost is way too high for what you get out of it. However, you're always better off getting out of sorcerer and into a prestige class as soon as possible, and the benefit from stalwart sorcerer is presumably tied to your levels in the sorcerer class, while the penalty is not. So if you go Stalwart Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5, you only wind up getting 12 extra hit points, but the level of the spell you lose continues to go up even after you enter the PrCs and don't gain more hit points anymore. That sucks. So I'd just advise you to suck it up for the first few levels, and go with a wizard 5 entry into something like Knight Phantom. Either take the Otherworldly feat, or play a LA +0 outsider of some kind to gain proficiency with all martial weapons. With all the things already mentioned like Alter Self, Mirror Image, False Life, Levitate, etc, you should survive just fine through the lower levels. Take a reserve feat so you can conserve spells for buffing and other things (like those handy Glitterdusts), and still contribute during "easy" combats without burning spell slots. Later on, you can start "gishing it up" more and more. I'd also advise you to take 3 levels of Incantatrix and the Persistent Spell feat. That's worth more than all the BAB and hit points in the world.
#18 akakagewarrior Mar 23, 2010 16:11:57	races and classes are only allowed from PHB 1+2, all completes (except psionics), and hopefully Unearthed Arcana. right now I'm leaning towards the (stalwart / battle) sorcerer + abjurant champion + ??? is there any other full casting prC in the completes granting medium BAB or better (that is not for bards) I oversaw?
#19 phaedrusxy Mar 23, 2010 16:19:26	races and classes are only allowed from PHB 1+2, all completes (except psionics), and hopefully Unearthed Arcana. right now I'm leaning towards the (stalwart / battle) sorcerer + abjurant champion + ??? is there any other full casting prC in the completes granting medium BAB or better (that is not for bards) I oversaw? Eh, you could always just go with Eldritch Knight. If you can use LA buyoff, tiefling isn't a bad race. It gets you an int bonus and the martial weapon proficiencies from being an outsider. It also opens up all kinds of polymorph abuse from outsider forms. If you go with sorcerer, the aasimar grants a charisma bonus and the outsider type.
#20 Senevri Mar 23, 2010 17:12:45	Whatever you do, don't play a Warmage. Those blow goats for pocket change, you know. That's not strictly true. Versatile Spellcaster Warmages do better, and classes like Wyrm Wizard, Fiend-blooded, feats like Improved Oneiromancy and Arcane Disciple should make them quite up par. Versatile Spellcaster for early access 1-level higher spells is probably quite strong, Six levels of Fiend-blood could snatch most of the Shadow line, for an example, and Wyrm Wizard could net us Miracle.  Of course, all of this applies to Beguiler and Dread Necromancer too. Beguiler probably has the best default spell list out of those three.
#21 phaedrusxy Mar 23, 2010 21:34:47	Whatever you do, don't play a Warmage. Those blow goats for pocket change, you know. That's not strictly true. Versatile Spellcaster Warmages do better, and classes like Wyrm Wizard, Fiend-blooded, feats like Improved Oneiromancy and Arcane Disciple should make them quite up par. Versatile Spellcaster for early access 1-level higher spells is probably quite strong, Six levels of Fiend-blood could snatch most of the Shadow line, for an example, and Wyrm Wizard could net us Miracle.  Of course, all of this applies to Beguiler and Dread Necromancer too. Beguiler probably has the best default spell list out of those three.  Don't forget Sandshaper. That adds a crap-ton of spells known as a 1 level dip.
#22 empirate Mar 24, 2010 12:13:06	Sure, Warmages are not un-optimizable. Depending on your reading of text-vs.-table, Warmage Rainbow Servants can be very awesome indeed. But still, it seems easier to optimize the heck out of a Sorcerer gish, doesn't it? Even a simple single-class Sorcerer has better survivability than a Warmage simply due to (Greater) Mirror Image, (Improved) Blink, (Greater) Invisibility, and of course the almighty Wings of Cover.
#23 phaedrusxy Mar 24, 2010 12:32:13	Sure, Warmages are not un-optimizable. Depending on your reading of text-vs.-table, Warmage Rainbow Servants can be very awesome indeed. But still, it seems easier to optimize the heck out of a Sorcerer gish, doesn't it? Even a simple single-class Sorcerer has better survivability than a Warmage simply due to (Greater) Mirror Image, (Improved) Blink, (Greater) Invisibility, and of course the almighty Wings of Cover. I don't disagree a bit. Was just adding suggestions, if the OP does decide to go with a warmage. I'd definitely prefer sorcerer over that, and usually pick wizard over sorcerer...
#24 Senevri Mar 25, 2010 11:13:00	Even a simple single-class Sorcerer has better survivability than a Warmage simply due to (Greater) Mirror Image, (Improved) Blink, (Greater) Invisibility, and of course the almighty Wings of Cover. What is this Wings of Cover you speak of? /discontinuity But, yeah. In fact, a plain BARD makes a decent gish, mainly due to the fact they get mirror image on level 4.
#25 phaedrusxy Mar 25, 2010 11:19:50	What is this Wings of Cover you speak of? /discontinuity 2nd level spell, either from Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic. Immediate action to cast, and it basically forms a protective dome over you that blocks line of effect against whatever attack you're defending against with it. Sorcerer only.
#26 akakagewarrior Mar 26, 2010 5:36:23	thanks again to everybody. if our DM allows UA, I'll play a metamagic stalwart battle sorcerer, going abjurant champion someday. if UA is not allowed, I'll go paladin 2 - metamagic sorcerer 4 - spellsword 1 - abjurant champion 5 - ... and Races of .... -books are not allowed. Although it looks there's some nice stuff for the sorcerer in Races of the Dragon.