Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 agarwaenimmortal May 05, 2008 10:09:56	Greetings! Is there a way to make a MoS incorporeal as his creations? Although it would look really cool, I'm interested in it for the advantage of it... Thanks!
#2 Wyvernhand May 05, 2008 11:46:06	Die in some horrific fashon with incomplete worldly obligations that cause you to rise up as a ghost? Thats about all I got...
#3 tweedledope May 05, 2008 11:47:40	Incorporeal is hard to come by w/o a high LA. That being said, though, the Ghost (+5 LA) is actually worth it in almost any situation.
#4 agarwaenimmortal May 05, 2008 11:48:35	Die in some horrific fashon with incomplete worldly obligations that cause you to rise up as a ghost? Thats about all I got... :D That's a nice suggestion, but what would be the LA be?
#5 orion959 May 05, 2008 18:41:14	Ritual of Transfiguration. It's in Savage Species, and it makes you incorporeal. LA +2, costs 306k gold and 12,240xp. And you need a 17th level Cleric with Animal domain to perform it.
#6 agarwaenimmortal May 06, 2008 10:45:43	Ok, and through spells, how can you temporarily become incorporeal?
#7 phaedrusxy May 06, 2008 11:10:28	Shapechange into an incorporeal undead. I think there is a wiz/sorc spell called Ghost Form, also.
#8 tweedledope May 06, 2008 12:55:28	PAO into a Ghost/Wraith?
#9 phaedrusxy May 06, 2008 14:21:57	PAO into a Ghost/Wraith? Wraith would work. Ghost is a template.
#10 proof100_dup May 06, 2008 14:26:01	Wraith would work. Ghost is a template. Just add the template to your self?
#11 phaedrusxy May 06, 2008 15:49:00	Just add the template to your self? You can't use Polymorph to turn into things with templates. I think you can with Shapechange, though.
#12 banor May 06, 2008 15:52:44	Phantom from MM5 might also work, I'm AFB right now but I don't think it's that much of a high LA.
#13 agarwaenimmortal May 08, 2008 9:07:35	Phantom from MM5 might also work, I'm AFB right now but I don't think it's that much of a high LA. I don't have the book here with me, but if I'm not mistaken, it has no LA (not LA 0, just LA -), which could be... troublesome...
#14 ronyon May 08, 2008 20:13:05	I am working on something like this. My spontaneous casting cloistered cleric has the Divine Magician alt.class feature. My DM allowed Lesser Spirit Binding as the 4th level choice.My 5th level choice is gonna be Magic Jar. The plan is to Call an Incorporeal Undead, Control it, and Magic Jar into it. Only problem is where to keep my body. No magic items really available,so no Portable Holes and such.If I could get a hold of a spell book with Shrink Item I could use that in my Anyspell slot,but right now Im stuck on the astral plane...
#15 phaedrusxy May 09, 2008 1:20:30	Uh... the DM is ok with you using Magic Jar to take over the body of something that doesn't have a body? :P
#16 kaiza May 09, 2008 5:33:22	Well, there's the Psion Uncarnate PrC. Its 2nd level ability makes you incorporeal for a little time, so you might find a way to fit it into your build. Permanent incorporeality is only at 10th level, though. k.
#17 jameswilliamogle May 09, 2008 8:36:59	Tenebrous Apostate 4 can do it 1/day.
#18 agarwaenimmortal May 09, 2008 10:43:43	Tenebrous Apostate 4 can do it 1/day. For that I would have to go Binder 4/ Tenebrous Apostate 4, it would be bad to use it with the Master of Shrouds...
#19 ronyon May 10, 2008 12:00:37	Uh... the DM is ok with you using Magic Jar to take over the body of something that doesn't have a body? :P Uh, what makes you say it dosnt have a body? If I become Incorporeal,I still have a body. Nothing about the Incoporeal subtype or the Undead state removes the body of a character.
#20 phaedrusxy May 12, 2008 0:57:39	Uh, what makes you say it dosnt have a body? This: An incorporeal creature has no physical body.
#21 ronyon May 12, 2008 22:49:04	Originally Posted by SRD, Incorporeal subtype An incorporeal creature has no physical body. I always figured that they had no physical body, meaning they had no solid tangible form.They still have a body or there would be nothing to aim attacks at, nothing to see, no AC modifiers due to size.You get the idea. I suppose if my DM insists, I could use Ghost Trap, but that would require a higher CL. Really though, why modify "body" with "physical" if what you reallyu mean is no body at all?
#22 phaedrusxy May 13, 2008 0:11:51	You place too much faith in the ability of WotC writers to carefully screen each sentence they write for possible ambiguity. There is no other kind of body except a physical body in the real world, yet people use the two words together all the time. The word ghost is synonymous with spirit in common usage. So a ghost is a spirit, i.e. a soul. They have no body at all. They are the essence of a creature stripped from its body. I think the writers thought people would exercise a bit of common sense when interpreting the rules, which is basically what the DM is for. I know I sure as hell wouldn't let someone "possess" an incorporeal creature, and I doubt most other DMs would either. I probably wouldn't let them possess a demon or devil, or other outsider who has "fluff" written about their body and soul being one and inseperable, either. Those kinds of creatures possess other creatures, because they are basically just souls without bodies. You can't possess a soul.
#23 ronyon May 13, 2008 20:51:19	I see your point, but lets face it, this whole game is made up crappola. We have rules to adjudicate this joint make believe we all love,because sense is not held in common in the real world, and much less so in a world that is purely imaginative. By your logic, a soul less husk like a zombie should be the perfect body for a Magic Jar user to occupy-but the spell doesn't work like that.Maybe it should, but then we are really deep into rewriting the spell. I say that your theory is flawed. Take this example from the Ghost entry In the SRD: Manifestation (Su) Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane. . Now, maybe the ghost stops being a soul when the ghost manifests? But only on the Ethereal plane, 'cause on the material, its still a soul? Or maybe it isn't a soul, at least not jn any mechanical sense. Page 140 of the Libris Mortis begins a discussion of Incorporealness that presents text in italic taken directly from the description of the incorporeal subtype in the Monster Manual III, followed by text that explains the in game impact of that information. An incorporeal creature has no physical body. is followed by: Incorporeal creatures don't need to to eat ,drink, or breath, and indeed cannot do these things(since they cant affect physical objects,even air) Nothing about them being souls, or being immune to possession do to that fact. Nothing at all, even though this is where they are choosing to reiterate and explain the rules on Incorporealness.Nothing in the rest of the discussion. Now, if Incorporeal creatures were souls, a Shadow would be a soul. And in order to bring back a character who became a shadow, one would have to remake that shadow into the humanoid it once was.After all the shadow is now Evil. But this is actually not true,since we know from the Resurrection line of spells that one can actually DESTROY said shadow, and still bring the deceased back to life. Hmm. If the shadow is a soul, and yet you can destroy it and still bring back the creature that said shadow was made from, well how does that make sense?Is the shadow actually different soul than that of the humanoid it was created from? Nah.Occam's razor says "shadows are not souls".We could go through this exercise with other incorporeal undead, but why bother? The rules of the game simply don't match the fluff that you are wanting to bring to the game. The fluff that is already in the game doesn't make sense, but then it doesn't "need to"-it's "official".Yours fluff does have does need to make sense,because you are basing your claims to its legitimacy on its inherit "common sense". In order to declare incorporeal beings souls, huge swaths of the game have to change, if internal consistency(a hallmark of common sense ever there was one)is to be created.Possessing Incorporeal beings may seem goofy, but it isnt as goofy as the results of this application of "common sense" to a game of shared make believe.This game can no more the scrutiny of "common sense" than it can with stand the onslaught of RL physics. In my game, I might bane this use of the spell, but only due to balance concerns.