Hi there,
most of you have probably mentoined how incredibly powerful a wizard can be at later levels...
Well, I think it still is but since the release of Complete Divine, the Cleric is nearly equal with him. Why?
Because of one single spell: True Creation
Need some ice to cool a Pit Fiend? - Sure, just summon Liquid Oxygen...
Don't know where in the Forest the bad guy is? - Easy, just summon some Gasoline...
Please tell me, is there something more awesome than being able to summon every Substance?
Being able to summon every substance without crippling XP costs? an anything 12/heir of syberis 2 from eberron can use true creation as an SLA once per day. SLA's don't have componants.
You and I have a very different opinion of this spell...
Need some ice to cool a Pit Fiend? - Sure, just summon Liquid Oxygen...
How many reasons do you want why this won't work? 3 enough?
1) True creation doesn't create any "substance", it creates any "object". I think it's a pretty big stretch to call liquid oxygen an object (though perhaps a "vat of liquid oxygen" would be legal?)
2) The spell says that "you must succeed at an appropriate craft check to make a complex item" See the problem? If your DM allows, Craft (fractional distillation of oxygen), then he deserves what he gets
3) The Pit Fiend might have something to say in the 10 MINUTES you are casting the spell. Yep, a 10 minute casting time makes this spell entirely useless for combat solutions on the fly.
Your "gasoline" solution has the same 3 problems...
Please tell me, is there something more awesome than being able to summon every Substance?
Hmmm...that is pretty good - unfortunately, that's not unique, or precisely what the spell does (it can create any non-magical object within the size limitation that you have the appropriate skill to create if complex), nor does it make clear the drawbacks.
So to answer your question - the answer is Yes, easily by a HUGE HUGE HUGE margin. Want an example?
Consider a Wizard. With Polymorph any object (same level spell as True Creation) he can turn anything into any object that you could create with True Creation with a few differences, it takes one standard action, it doesn't cost XP, and it can turn your party fighter into a Troll permanently....and much more. If you gave True Creation a standard action casting time, and took away the XP cost, PaO is still way, way better.
Now, certainly, PaO is broken, broken, broken, though most of what can be achieved with the True Creation spell can be effectively duplicated with the more minor "creation" line of spells. The only real difference is the lack of permanency.
Well, For the first 3 Argument:
1. Isn't an stone an "object"? I'm pretty sure you can create al lumb of gold with it, and that's not much of a difference... ...but to make you happy, you could still conjure "Oxygen Ice", which defenitely is 1. Much colder 2. An object and 3. a lot more compressed...
2. Well, yeah. But seriously, is an Object in it's normal form, even if it's freezed, really that complex? For a detailed Statue you would have to make a Craft check, but for mass of Ice? I do not think so...
3. Oh, well, I somehow skipped that part... So not much in-battle usage
For polymorph every object:
The first, huge drawback is that you first need something of equal volume to transform it. And I'm not sure if "the Earth" is a single object... That means you can't just summon a rain of acid from the sky.
The XP costs might be high if you summon gold or other precious materials (which is impossible with PaO), but who would pay anything for Oxygen or Hydrogen? Most of the surface of the Earth is covered with Hydrogen and Oxygen! So I assume the XP cost would be the minium, 1.
For the minor and greater creation spells: Minor creation can only create plant matter and greater only adds minerals, which is still very nice for some other tactics, but True creation is clearly better.
Well, For the first 3 Argument:
1. Isn't an stone an "object"? I'm pretty sure you can create al lumb of gold with it, and that's not much of a difference... ...but to make you happy, you could still conjure "Oxygen Ice", which defenitely is 1. Much colder 2. An object and 3. a lot more compressed...
I've never heard of "oxygen ice" before, but OK - that would get around problem #1 - but assuming that it does not occur naturally - problem #2 still prevents it.
2. Well, yeah. But seriously, is an Object in it's normal form, even if it's freezed, really that complex? For a detailed Statue you would have to make a Craft check, but for mass of Ice? I do not think so...
Depends how difficult it is to freeze I suppose.
For a mass of ice I'm sure no craft check is required. Ice occurs naturally in nature, so there is no real problem with the assumption that your character knows what ice is.
If someone starts talking about their character specifically choosing to create something they would not logically have any knowledge of - that's different. Not only will your character not know how to make liquid oxygen, nobody does, no more than they know how to make an atomic bomb, or know what one is.
So basically - the problem isn't knowing how to make it, it's more basic - just knowing what the heck it is in the first place.
For polymorph every object:The first, huge drawback is that you first need something of equal volume to transform it. And I'm not sure if "the Earth" is a single object... That means you can't just summon a rain of acid from the sky.
??? I was comparing it to True Creation - so providing an example that True Creation couldn't do either doesn't really help your argument.
As for your argument regarding "equal volume" - you are incorrect. PaO allows change of size. There is a +2 duration bonus for maintaining size - but it's hardly required to get a permanent duration.
The XP costs might be high if you summon gold or other precious materials (which is impossible with PaO), but who would pay anything for Oxygen or Hydrogen? Most of the surface of the Earth is covered with Hydrogen and Oxygen! So I assume the XP cost would be the minium, 1.
I'm sure if you want to create oxygen or hydrogen the cost would be the minimum. As for liquid oxygen - again, it is not a naturally occurring substance - so firstly, your character has never heard of liquid oxygen, nor can imagine its existence, secondly, as for the cost, I think you should maybe ask NASA about liquid oxygen being free.
For the minor and greater creation spells: Minor creation can only create plant matter and greater only adds minerals, which is still very nice for some other tactics, but True creation is clearly better.
Make you a deal. If you can provide me with 3 not unlikely scenarios where True Creation is going to be more useful to you than another spell of the same level - I'll be convinced. With two conditions:
1) You can only create objects which exist in D&D, and therefore, items which a reasonable DM is going to allow you to create without playing D20 Modern.
2) You need to keep your XP costs moderate
Make you a deal. If you can provide me with 3 not unlikely scenarios where True Creation is going to be more useful to you than another spell of the same level - I'll be convinced. With two conditions:
1) You can only create objects which exist in D&D, and therefore, items which a reasonable DM is going to allow you to create without playing D20 Modern.
2) You need to keep your XP costs moderate
Well one obvious use is to create a large amount of a very expensive material (large vats of poison or huge blocks of platinum will work) and sell the object for a decent amount of cash
The XP cost of the spell is equal to the value of the item created in GP, so I refer you to condition 2 in the text you quoted.
Well one obvious use is to create a large amount of a very expensive material (large vats of poison or huge blocks of platinum will work) and sell the object for a decent amount of cash
Hmm, no.
That would be the same as selling XP for gold, which isn't that good. Polymorph any object isn't even able to do that.
Hmm, I guess you're somehow right, Treantmonklvl20, but the core thing I want(ed) to show is that you can create any object (within the restrictions)... there is no statement about the temperature of the object so it indeed should be possible to create something known, such as air, in a much colder state than normal as well as creating something in a much hotter state, such as melted, hence liquid, Iron.
Hmm, I guess you're somehow right, Treantmonklvl20, but the core thing I want(ed) to show is that you can create any object (within the restrictions)... there is no statement about the temperature of the object so it indeed should be possible to create something known, such as air, in a much colder state than normal as well as creating something in a much hotter state, such as melted, hence liquid, Iron.
If we assume that because the rules don't say you can't, you therefore can, then the sky is truly the limit. See #2
Basically - I would like you to explain to me the difference between:
1) "I cast True Creation to create air - but True creation doesn't say I can't set the temperature of the air I create, so I set the temperature at a trillion degrees."
2) "I cast Fog Cloud to create fog - but Fog Cloud doesn't say I can't set the temperature of the fog I create, so I set the temperature at a trillion degrees."
I don't understand why would assume that 1 is OK and 2 is not when neither spell says "you can't".
I like to keep my optimization techniques defined by what the rules say you can do. Including with spell evaluation. Otherwise you ascend a slippery slope indeed.
Hmm, I see.
That's a very good argument and I will think about that but believe me, even if you Include every con-argument ever posted in this thread, it still is nice to create 4,5 cubic foot of alchemist fire.
Guess you got me in most other points, thought
Oh, by the way, fog isn't really possible at a temprature of 3 trillion degrees and... well, never mind
That was a good throw in at the end. Pointing out that fog can't be that hot. It's very relevent to the thread and let him know just how smart you really are. You sure showed him!
Yeah, yeah, I know that one was bad but I wanted to reply to everything so... ah, don't mind.
What's the GP value of 4.5 cubic feet of alchemists fire? How many individual doses is that?
OK, I'll leave it alone now, I think we're pretty much on the same page 
...sorry.
That said, your 15th level Cleric should be able to cast Miracle now - that is a legitimately excellent spell...
I've never heard of "oxygen ice" before, but OK - that would get around problem #1 - but assuming that it does not occur naturally - problem #2 still prevents it.
Two points:
Trillion degree fog has a name. We call it Plasma. Congrats! You just set the atmosphere on fire and the whole planet died! Here's for bringing physics into the campaign! It's also a pity that Devils are immune to Fire damage.
The ability of the Heir of Siberys for Cannith was errata'd to force XP costs, so that's not a cheap way out.
===Aelryinth
Two points:
Trillion degree fog has a name. We call it Plasma. Congrats! You just set the atmosphere on fire and the whole planet died! Here's for bringing physics into the campaign! It's also a pity that Devils are immune to Fire damage.
That would not be sufficient to destroy all life on the planet.
It would still be hot enough to boil the stupid guy who made it though.
Two points:
Trillion degree fog has a name. We call it Plasma. Congrats! You just set the atmosphere on fire and the whole planet died! Here's for bringing physics into the campaign! It's also a pity that Devils are immune to Fire damage.
The ability of the Heir of Siberys for Cannith was errata'd to force XP costs, so that's not a cheap way out.
===Aelryinth
I think you missed my point :P
Seriously though. The chemistry here doesn't really belong in DnD. Yes oxygen and hydrogen are abounded elements on the earth but that doesn't mean they are available or creatable in a pure form.
Yeah, yeah I finally got it but I do not think there is no Priodic table in DnD. It might be smaller but there is one.
The descriptios of a Monster once mentoined that everyone who has seen it and survived smelled a strong sulfur smell. (The true dragons have similar entries but these are for the Players to better Imagine it)
I do not think there is no Priodic table in DnD. It might be smaller but there is one.
Specifically, this one.
Wow, that was great, possibly the first intelligent thing someone has brought up in this thread.
Touché!
Best use of true creation?
Non-magical traps. Also, bodywork for animated objects. (Moving Castles and such.)
You may need TC -> Fabricate, but that's about it.
So let us say that you are going to war with an army, say your a Halfling, that mans that you could turn into a Choker permanently with Polymorph Any Object, then you could turn into a Ha-Naga for a good amount of time, which gives you a very nice gaze attack. I plane on using shapechange to do this as a level 20 Druid/PsiWarrior. You could also turn a bug into a DEVASTATION BEETLE. There are also the monsters with wish as a Spell-like ability, like Pit Fiends, Genies, Angel, Solar, etc.
So let us say that you are going to war with an army, say your a Halfling, that mans that you could turn into a Choker permanently with Polymorph Any Object, then you could turn into a Ha-Naga for a good amount of time, which gives you a very nice gaze attack. I plane on using shapechange to do this as a level 20 Druid/PsiWarrior. You could also turn a bug into a DEVASTATION BEETLE. There are also the monsters with wish as a Spell-like ability, like Pit Fiends, Genies, Angel, Solar, etc.
None of that is doing you a lot of good, since you don't get supernatural or spell-like abilities with PaO. The Devestation Beetle would work, unless your DM thinks PaO inherits the hit die cap from Polymorph.
Well the wish and the gaze things were not really intended for Polymorph Any Object.
Two points:
Trillion degree fog has a name. We call it Plasma. Congrats! You just set the atmosphere on fire and the whole planet died! Here's for bringing physics into the campaign! It's also a pity that Devils are immune to Fire damage.
That would not be sufficient to destroy all life on the planet.
It'd kill everything above the level of a virus, and we don't much care about the diseases, do we? Setting the atmosphere on fire is one of the reasons they are really leery about creating bigger nuclear weapons. If you somehow start a plasma reaction and it becomes self-sustaining, you just killed the planet as all the hydrogen cooks off into helium...and that includes the oceans. i.e. setting the atmosphere on fire is bad news. In warhammer, they call it 'flaming out' a planet. ==Aelryinth
It'd kill everything above the level of a virus, and we don't much care about the diseases, do we? Setting the atmosphere on fire is one of the reasons they are really leery about creating bigger nuclear weapons. If you somehow start a plasma reaction and it becomes self-sustaining, you just killed the planet as all the hydrogen cooks off into helium...and that includes the oceans. i.e. setting the atmosphere on fire is bad news. In warhammer, they call it 'flaming out' a planet. ==Aelryinth
Look, this is just wrong. This is what Enrico Fermi thought might happen before they set off the first nuclear weapon. Obviously it didn't, regardless of what the Warhammer authors think.
And we don't have bigger nuclear weapons because of the bans on doing more nuclear weapons research. And also, just how much bigger do you need? You could take out most of the population of smaller countries with just one of the biggest multi-warhead bombs now.
Lightning bolts make plasma naturally in the atmosphere all the time. St Elmos fire is another natural plasma found on earth.
Scientists at Sandia National Labs produced the highest temperature plasma ever achieved on earth in 2006 (estimated 2.66 to 3.7 billion degrees Kelvin). For reference, this is hotter than the center of the sun. That didn't "set the atmosphere on fire", either.
*eats popcorn and smiles* You going to take that aelryinth?
