What danger lurks beneath the dark waters of night? The Black Octopus is a shapechanging orcish pirate who plies on the shipping trade channels. When he sights the PC's ship coming towards him, he readies himself and attacks, taking on the form of a black giant octopus from ages pages.
Note: The Black Octopus is a shapechanging grappler that I tried to build with a minimum of spellcasting. His offense works out decently well (he deals roughly 2,000 grappling damage per round), but his power level flies up in the next couple levels past 20, if you want to advance him for higher level groups.
Best of all, he does all this without any magic items. (If you want to present a better challenge for your PCs, you can give him tomes, ioun stones, etc.) Standard 32 point build rules. Stats below include himself fully buffed. All buffs are > minutes per level, so he activates them all before attacking a ship. The only questionable buff is metaphysical claw (which states it can be cast on any natural weapon as long as you have a claw or bite, so can it be cast on a tentacle?) but ultimately, all the buffs are more or less irrelevant to the build. Expansion is probably the most critical. You can push levels around to accomplish different feats (a couple more levels in barbarian or BBC gives greater rage for another +2 strength, druid or primeval levels can give more primeval forms per day, etc.), but the basic offensive power doesn't change very much. This character is an NPC designed as a boss encounter, so he doesn't need to go supreme more than once per day.
As a PC, he is still pretty good, but I'd tweak him a bit so he could be useful in more combats per day.
Frostblood Orc
Str: 52 (17 base + 1 regression + 4 stat bumps + 4 racial + 12 Octopus Form + 4 Animal Affinity + 2 Chain of Offense + 6 Rage + 2 Expansion)
Dex: 18 (13 base + 6 Octopus Form + 1 Regression - 2 Expansion)
Con: 28 (14 base + 4 Octopus Form + 1 Regression + 1 stat bump + 6 rage + 2 chain of Offense)
Int: 5 (8 base - 2 racial - 1 regression)
Wis: 14 (15 base - 2 racial + 1 regression)
Cha: 5 (8 base - 2 racial - 1 regression)
HP: 335 (full at 1st, 2/3rds after)
BAB: +17 (all natural)
AC: 24 (+6 dragonhide husk, +9 natural armor, -2 size, +4 dex, +2 insight, -2 punishing stance, -4 reckless rage)
PP: 18 PP per day (4PP expansion, 4PP +3 Offensive Prescience, 3PP Animal Affinity, 6PP Metaphysical Claw on 2 claws, bite and 3 tentacles)
Grapple Check: +47 (+17 (BAB) +21 (Str) +8 (Size)) (*Edit, removed grip of iron)
Damage per grapple: 1d8+24 (base) + 2d8+9 (constrict) + 8x(1d8+24)+3 tentacles + 3d6+14 (bite) + 2x(3d6+14) (claws) + 6d6+28 (rend) + 14d6 (punishing stance) + 14d6 (Rapid Assault) = 449 (+49 first round only) = 449/498 damage per grapple check
Full attack (grapples) at: +47/+42/+37/+32 at 449/498 damage per successful check. Average damage: 1796/1992 (first round)
or
Full attack: +37/+32/+27/+22 1d8+25 unarmed strike + +32/+32/+32 1d8+14 tentacles + +31/+31/+31/+31/+31 1d8+13 tentacles + +32 3d6+14 bite + +32/+32 3d6+14 claws + 6d6+28 rend = 383.5 average damage. Plus improved grab on tentacle attacks. Plus the first unarmed strike is a DC 22 stunning fist.
Saves:
+32/+18/+31(+9)
Special Qualities:
Cold Subtype
DR 3/silver
DR 1/-
Low Light Vision
Darkvision
Swim Speed
Scent
Stranglehold (Coup de Grace as move action)
Savage Grapple (not the feat, the Black Blood Cultist ability: on a successful grapple check, deals damage with all natural weapons)
Levels:
1) Warblade (Stance: Punishing Stance +1d6 damage -2 AC, Counter: Moment of Perfect Mind, other useless 1st level maneuvers)
2) Ex-Monk (bonus IUS feat and increases grapple damage)
3) Barbarian (+6 str with Reckless Rage 3/day, (BBC levels stack with barbarian levels))
4) Ranger (bonus track feat)
5) Fighter (+6 AC from Dragonscale Husk alternate class ability, bonus WF: Grapple)
6-13) Black Blood Cultist 8 (gain claw, bite, rend natural attacks)
14-17) War Mind 4 (+2 Str and Con, +2 AC, Expansion, Precognition, Animal Affinity, Expanded Knowledge: Grip of Iron)
18-20) Primeval 3 (+1 Str Con Dex Wis, -1 Int Cha, alternate form)
Feats (*are bonus feats):
1) Reckless Rage
1*) Endurance (bonus Frostblood Orc feat)
2*) Track
3*) IUS, Stunning Fist
3) Self-sufficient (primeval prereq, burned feat)
4*) Rapid Assault (+1d6 per attack on 1st round of combat)
5*) WF: Grapple
6) Wild Talent
8*) Improved Grapple
9) Improved Natural Weapon (claw)
12) Improved Natural Weapon (bite)
15) Improved Natural Weapon (tentacle)
18) Expanded Knowledge: Metaphysical Claw (or Grip of Iron)
Skills:
(Oh, who cares. He can probably swim.)
Can he do anyhting against freedom of movement? Because y'know, without that he's not going to be very effective against most parties.
If they are relying on spells, it will be too late. If they all have rings, he can just full attack. He has a decent full attack sequence, though not especially extraordinary.
(In my campaign, which has revised rules to balance epic play, FOM only provides a +40 bonus to resist grapple checks. So he's effectively +11 against a target with FOM, which might beat a wizard or something, but it will still protect most PCs.)
I suggest you redo this, it's a very misleading NPC. I think his Str is all of 36, His Con is 22, and his Dex is 14. It significantly changes your numbers.
And how is he shapechanging, anyways? Is he supposed to be a were octopus, and that's his hybrid form? I admit to being totally confused.
===Aelryinth
Why is he getting a huge boost to stats going to octopus form? He'd just get the physical stats of a giant octopus...his own physical stats would be irrelevant (and it would cost him Str, Con and Dex, by eyeballing it. Also, his Regression and Racial physical bonuses mean nothing in Octopus form, so he'd lose them as well.
I suggest you redo this, it's a very misleading NPC. I think his Str is all of 36, His Con is 22, and his Dex is 14. It significantly changes your numbers.
And how is he shapechanging, anyways? Is he supposed to be a were octopus, and that's his hybrid form? I admit to being totally confused.
===Aelryinth
When primevals shapechange, they gain the stats of the target creature -10. So a Giant Octopus (Str 20), gives a +10 bonus to base strength. Primeval 3 increases it to +12.
Damage per grapple: 1d8+24 (base) + 2d8+9 (constrict) + 8x(1d8+24)+3 tentacles + 3d6+14 (bite) + 2x(3d6+14) (claws) + 6d6+28 (rend) + 14d6 (punishing stance) + 14d6 (Rapid Assault) = 449 (+49 first round only) = 449/498 damage per grapple check
Each grapple check is only a single attack. Effects that add damage to every attack only add it once to each grapple check.
When primevals shapechange, they gain the stats of the target creature -10. So a Giant Octopus (Str 20), gives a +10 bonus to base strength. Primeval 3 increases it to +12.
Where is Primeval printed? I'm curious what else, if anything, it does for this build. (I've also got a shapeshifting character who might benefit, maybe.)
Each grapple check is only a single attack. Effects that add damage to every attack only add it once to each grapple check.
When he makes a successful grapple check he deals damage as if he'd hit with every natural weapon.
Where is Primeval printed? I'm curious what else, if anything, it does for this build. (I've also got a shapeshifting character who might benefit, maybe.)
Frostburn.
Is an Octopus a Prehistoric or Dire animal? If not, then you can't use it with Primeval..
Giant octopii are indeed prehistoric animals.
http://www.newanimal.org/octopus.htm
-EE
How does Savage Grapple work? Does it trigger on any successful grapple check, for any reason? Just a dedicated one using an attack action?
Giant octopii are indeed prehistoric animals.
http://www.newanimal.org/octopus.htm
Uh. No its not. Dinosaur/Dire Animal/DM approve.
RAW he can't become a Gaint Octopii.
edit:
What book is Black Blood Cultist? Also to qualify for Warmind you must have PP, which you don't naturally nor do you have a feat that allows you to gain PP.
edit II: Warmind not Warblade... O.o
What book is Black Blood Cultist? Also to qualify for Warblade you must have PP, which you don't naturally nor do you have a feat that allows you to gain PP.
Black Blood Cultist is in Champions of Ruin, IRC. And I assume you mean Warmind the PRC, not Warblade the base class.
Black Blood Cultist is in Champions of Ruin, IRC. And I assume you mean Warmind the PRC, not Warblade the base class.
Ya. :p My bad.
Uh. No its not. Dinosaur/Dire Animal/DM approve.
RAW he can't become a Gaint Octopii.
Given that the title is (CR 20 Encounter) I assume he is the DM and is throwing together a fight for his PCs.
Uh. No its not. Dinosaur/Dire Animal/DM approve.
RAW he can't become a Gaint Octopii.
The RAW is any prehistoric creature. The existence of the Giant Octopus was considered a legend for years, a myth alongside the giant squid. Only recently scientists have realized they were/are real creatures.
You don't, I believe, qualify for Warmind. You need a power point reserve. You also don't qualify for the first Expanded Knowledge, as you need Manifester level 3rd, which you don't get for another level.
How does Savage Grapple work? Does it trigger on any successful grapple check, for any reason? Just a dedicated one using an attack action?
Very true. Replace One of the Expanded Knowledges with Wild Talent (the feats can be reshuffled so they work). Neither Grip of Iron or Metaphysical Claw are especially critical to the build.
The RAW is any prehistoric creature. The existence of the Giant Octopus was considered a legend for years, a myth alongside the giant squid. Only recently scientists have realized they were/are real creatures.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not a prehistoric animal by D&D rules.
The only way this has any chance of being "legal" is by the "DM approval" statement, however the wording indicates it still must be considered "prehistoric".
I certainly wouldn't allow it.. Primeval is powerful enough within it's normal animal constraints without throwing it wide open to whatever creature you feel like dubbing "prehistoric".
In reference to the link you posted, aside from the fact it's not in any way related to D&D rules, do you honestly think "hundreds of years" qualifies as prehistoric? Prehistoric is millions of years..
Anyway, if you're the DM, you can obviously do what you want, but if I was one of your players and found out you used this form as part of the Primeval PrC, I'd be anoyed that, in my eyes, you cheated. DM's need to play by the rules too, IMO.
Just my 2c.
Anyway, if you're the DM, you can obviously do what you want, but if I was one of your players and found out you used this form as part of the Primeval PrC, I'd be anoyed that, in my eyes, you cheated. DM's need to play by the rules too, IMO.
Just my 2c.
I dunno, aside from the questionable legality with the primeval there, think about how this would be as an encounter. You've got an orcish pirate who turns into a giant black octopus to take out ships. That right there, is a flavorful encounter. Furthermore, who says you have to tell the party how you built the monstrosity they just fought. I usually show the party an enemy once they've killed it, but that's not an always situation.
I don't think it's cheating if a player could do it too... dm's having access to stuff as pc's the pc's don't IS cheating. What if the party's druid decided he wanted to become the black octopus's disciple after a near TPK? If it could happen, game on! WotC hasn't focused too much attention on prehistoric aquatic stuff. I don't have stormwrack, or whatever, burt I'm surprised it's not considered there.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not a prehistoric animal by D&D rules.
Prehistorical isn't defined in the D&D rules (primeval allows dire animals, dinosaurs, or *other* prehistoric creatures), so I did some research on it and determined it was indeed a prehistoric creature.
In reference to the link you posted, aside from the fact it's not in any way related to D&D rules, do you honestly think "hundreds of years" qualifies as prehistoric? Prehistoric is millions of years..
Go ahead and duplicate my research on it. The "hundreds of years" is our own history of it. It was merely a legendary creature before science found out it was real. It was contemporary with the dinosaurs, and is the closest thing to a dire sea creature there is.
Anyway, if you're the DM, you can obviously do what you want, but if I was one of your players and found out you used this form as part of the Primeval PrC, I'd be anoyed that, in my eyes, you cheated. DM's need to play by the rules too, IMO.
It's quite legit by the RAW. As a player, I guess you'd need to convince the DM it was a prehistoric animal.
still no rules on dire octopuses, huh? maybe MMVI will finally step up to the plate for us.
I don't think it's cheating if a player could do it too... dm's having access to stuff as pc's the pc's don't IS cheating. What if the party's druid decided he wanted to become the black octopus's disciple after a near TPK? If it could happen, game on! WotC hasn't focused too much attention on prehistoric aquatic stuff. I don't have stormwrack, or whatever, burt I'm surprised it's not considered there.
I poked around in stormwrack and didn't see anything that would clarify the matter at all.
On a weird unrelated note, Fil Kearny, my name is Bill Kerney. =)
Prehistoric Animal of some sort (Dinosaur, Dire Animal, or creature DM approved).
Also each Dire Animal/Dinosaur had a entry in the Books like an Elf/Orc would while Giant Octopus is in the Animal section, thus living, and unusable. Gaint Octopus is still living, so you can't count it as "Prehistoric" if its "Historic".
Primeval CLEARLY states:
Also each Dire Animal/Dinosaur had a entry in the Books like an Elf/Orc would while Giant Octopus is in the Animal section, thus living, and unusable. Gaint Octopus is still living, so you can't count it as "Prehistoric" if its "Historic".
The available categories are dire animal, dinosaur, and "other" prehistoric animals. So clearly things besides dire animals and dinosaurs are allowed. Prehistoric species of giant octopii existed, and were a different species from the smaller modern ones.
The only objection I guess you can really have is that it requires DM approval, but in the RAW it's perfectly fine.
The available categories are dire animal, dinosaur, and "other" prehistoric animals. So clearly things besides dire animals and dinosaurs are allowed. Prehistoric species of giant octopii existed, and were a different species from the smaller modern ones.
The only objection I guess you can really have is that it requires DM approval, but in the RAW it's perfectly fine.
Then again if you allow a DM in, he/she's not going to let you do this only if it was an NPC.
I also don't see anything that grants the Dragonblood subtype required for the Dragonscale Husk.
Aside from that, I do love the use of the Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple ability - I'd never noticed that before.. Combine that with a totemist and it could be lots of fun..
On a weird unrelated note, Fil Kearny, my name is Bill Kerney. =)
WHOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
Primeval form legality issues aside (and igoring the alignment shift..), I don't see Toughness in your feat selection, which is required for Primeval.
I also don't see anything that grants the Dragonblood subtype required for the Dragonscale Husk.
Aside from that, I do love the use of the Black Blood Cultist's Savage Grapple ability - I'd never noticed that before.. Combine that with a totemist and it could be lots of fun..
The Frostblood Orc allows him to have Dragonblood Subtype.
Granted that it might have existed perhaps in prehistory. But if thats the case, why not go straight for a primeaval blue whale or something outlandish like that? I'm pretty sure the phylogenic origins of blue whales goes back to at least slightly before pre-history as you measure it. (I mean, written records don't go back that far, do they? Probably only a couple of thousand years.)
I'm of the impression that prehistoric means a creature that has no present day direct examples.
Woolly Mammoths, Dire Wolves, sabre tooth tigers, dire rhinos and basilosaurus are all pretty prehistoric in my book.
Anything else whose existence can be verified within historical records (Pliny the elder on your page) kind of isn't prehistoric is it? I mean we can't even call the Coelacanth prehistoric nowadays because it has modern surviving examples.
prototype00
Not to rehash an old point, but in both the page that you refer to and the wiki article that that page points to, in no place does it place the giant octopus as a "prehistoric creature".
Granted that it might have existed perhaps in prehistory. But if thats the case, why not go straight for a primeaval blue whale or something outlandish like that? I'm pretty sure the phylogenic origins of blue whales goes back to at least slightly before pre-history as you measure it. (I mean, written records don't go back that far, do they? Probably only a couple of thousand years.)
I'm of the impression that prehistoric means a creature that has no present day direct examples.
Woolly Mammoths, Dire Wolves, sabre tooth tigers, dire rhinos and basilosaurus are all pretty prehistoric in my book.
Anything else whose existence can be verified within historical records (Pliny the elder on your page) kind of isn't prehistoric is it? I mean we can't even call the Coelacanth prehistoric nowadays because it has modern surviving examples.
prototype00
Thank you for pointing it out. Gaint Octopus =/ Prehistoric because you could if you wanted too, go and find one. Unlike Prehistoric which are extinct and have evolved or De-evolved into diffrent creatures.
Not to rehash an old point, but in both the page that you refer to and the wiki article that that page points to, in no place does it place the giant octopus as a "prehistoric creature".
Granted that it might have existed perhaps in prehistory. But if thats the case, why not go straight for a primeaval blue whale or something outlandish like that? I'm pretty sure the phylogenic origins of blue whales goes back to at least slightly before pre-history as you measure it. (I mean, written records don't go back that far, do they? Probably only a couple of thousand years.)
I'm of the impression that prehistoric means a creature that has no present day direct examples.
Woolly Mammoths, Dire Wolves, sabre tooth tigers, dire rhinos and basilosaurus are all pretty prehistoric in my book.
Anything else whose existence can be verified within historical records (Pliny the elder on your page) kind of isn't prehistoric is it? I mean we can't even call the Coelacanth prehistoric nowadays because it has modern surviving examples.
prototype00
Thats a pretty arbitrary definition of prehistoric.
Going by that jellyfish couldn't be called prehistoric, even though they have been around for billions of years.
Prehistoric just means before written records existed. That is why the phrase 'prehistoric man' is legitimate.
Thank you for pointing it out. Gaint Octopus =/ Prehistoric because you could if you wanted too, go and find one. Unlike Prehistoric which are extinct and have evolved or De-evolved into diffrent creatures.
To be picky, there is no such thing as devolution. Even though an organism may become simpler it is evolving to better suit its needs. :/
arbitrary definition of prehistoric
pre·his·tor·ic /ˌprihɪˈstɔrɪk, -ˈstɒr-, ˌpriɪ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pree-hi-stawr-ik, -stor-, pree-i-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of or pertaining to the time or a period prior to recorded history: The dinosaur is a prehistoric beast.
I would draw your attention to the "pertaining to a time or a period prior to recorded history" And the subsequent associated sentence "The dinosaur is a prehistoric beast."
I assure you, my definitions are not at all arbritrary.
There is evidence of prehistoric jellyfish. Jellyfish the likes of which do not exist in any historical record. Cnidaria is a very well represented pre-historical phylum.
Of prehistoric giant octopuses, however, I have seen no record. Hence I am reluctant to regard it as a creature having prehistoric antecedents, especially since the only evidence pertaining to it was written during a decidedly historic timeframe.
For example, as I mentioned earlier, would you call the Blue Whale a prehistoric creature? Or the crocodile? Or the Grizzly bear? I personally wouldn't, but then again I find that I have a rather exacting definition of these terms due to my scientific background.
prototype00
I would draw your attention to the "pertaining to a time or a period prior to recorded history" And the subsequent associated sentence "The dinosaur is a prehistoric beast."
I assure you, my definitions are not at all arbritrary.
There is evidence of prehistoric jellyfish. Cnidaria is a very well represented pre-historical phylum.
Of prehistoric giant octopuses, however, I have seen no record. Hence I am reluctant to regard it as a creature having prehistoric antecedents, especially since the only evidence pertaining to it was written during a decidedly historic timeframe.
prototype00
I know the definition of the word, but it can be applied to any species that was around in prehistory. You are just referring to the version of the species that was around in prehistory. So the prehistoric elephant from, say, 10,000 years ago, while probably very similar to the current elephant, is still a prehistoric animal.
That said, I admit I don't know much about the evolution of octopoda. However the ancestor, cephalopoda, was around for millions of years and died out around the end of the cretaceous.
It seems likely to me that octopoda has been around for longer than the last few thousand years, at least, given the above timescale.
That there haven't been fossils found doesn't mean to much, as the gaps in the fossil record are still significant. :/
prototype00
The Frostblood Orc allows him to have Dragonblood Subtype.
Right you are. Thanks.
If the Barbarian level was a Bear Totem Barbarian, it would also grant Toughness in exchange for Fast Movement. Maybe that's what he was doing, but didn't mention it.
Thank you for pointing it out. Gaint Octopus =/ Prehistoric because you could if you wanted too, go and find one. Unlike Prehistoric which are extinct and have evolved or De-evolved into diffrent creatures.
Could you go out and find one? The fact that Gargantuan Ocopii are listed under cryptozoology pages is because they're largely legendary holdovers from prehistoric times. There's several different species, some of which are legendary, some of which are real (and merely large). Finding a real Gargantuan Octopus would be like finding a dinosaur living somewhere in Brazil. A random holdover from prehistoric times.
Any way you slice it, I think they definitely qualify as both being from prehistoric times and having the appropriate "prehistoric flavor" of things that are a little larger and a little meaner than things found nowadays.
Could you go out and find one? The fact that Gargantuan Ocopii are listed under cryptozoology pages is because they're largely legendary holdovers from prehistoric times. There's several different species, some of which are legendary, some of which are real (and merely large). Finding a real Gargantuan Octopus would be like finding a dinosaur living somewhere in Brazil. A random holdover from prehistoric times.
Any way you slice it, I think they definitely qualify as both being from prehistoric times and having the appropriate "prehistoric flavor" of things that are a little larger and a little meaner than things found nowadays.
Cryptozoology doesn't make it Prehistoric. Gorillas were thought to be Crypt before some one shot it. Also you never SAID Garagantuan Octopus. You said GIANT Octopus. I looked up on Wikipedia and the Kraken is longer and discription almost as the Garagantuan Octopus (AKA) Colossal Octopus.
They are not to be confused with the known giant octopus, which is a member of the scientifically defined genus, Enteroctopus, and grows to about thirty feet in arm spread.
Gaint octopus are known, and are NOT prehistoric. Colossal Octopus haven't been stat out. Garagantuan Octopus have esti. of 30' arms, while the gaint only has 10'. Gaint Octopus =/ Prehistoric nor would be the Kraken, or the Colossal Octopus. Also they don't fit in with the entire "Prehistoric" thing. If its extinct its Prehistoric.
Cryptozoology doesn't make it Prehistoric. Gorillas were thought to be Crypt before some one shot it. Also you never SAID Garagantuan Octopus. You said GIANT Octopus.
It's sometimes called the giant octopus. The wikipedia entry is just a stub. Go ahead and Google it.
It's sometimes called the giant octopus. The wikipedia entry is just a stub. Go ahead and Google it.
It would be a Huge creature, instead of Large.
They are not to be confused with the known giant octopus, which is a member of the scientifically defined genus, Enteroctopus, and grows to about thirty feet in arm spread. The colossal octopus is assumed to be much larger.
Kraken's are Gargantuan, and the Gaint Octopus is suppost to be as large if not larger than the Kraken. Even if its a "prehistoric" Gaint Octopus =/ Colossal (Gaint) octopus.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantic_octopus
If you move out expanded knowledge for toughness (or maybe improved toughness if you have that house rule) I think the build looks nice and your buddies are in for a big surprise.
Alright, let's move off the Octopus issue. I have never seen someone argue against dinosaurs in Eberron, in fact I've seen many go 'omg Flreshraker dinosaur wooo' several times. I've never seen anyone with a problem of ancient guardian squid thing in LotR. His game world has a possibly non-earth evolution of giant squid, and I don't feel like playing pun-pun to find out.
If you move out expanded knowledge for toughness (or maybe improved toughness if you have that house rule) I think the build looks nice and your buddies are in for a big surprise.
Dinosaurs are listed as acceptable Prehistoric creatures. So are Dire Animals. When they ment "Prehistoric" up to the DM they're assuming that you'd go by Earth's (RL) standards of whats ancient history. Opt fourms have no DM, and just RAW, Dire Animals and Dinosaurs aren't lodged in with the "Animal" section of the MMs.
Dinosaurs are listed as acceptable Prehistoric creatures. So are Dire Animals. When they ment "Prehistoric" up to the DM they're assuming that you'd go by Earth's (RL) standards of whats ancient history. Opt fourms have no DM, and just RAW, Dire Animals and Dinosaurs aren't lodged in with the "Animal" section of the MMs.
As I said before, the primeval explicitly allows things other than Dire Animals and Dinosaurs. Ok, fine, we're going in circles here.
Believe it or not, it doesn't matter particularly. I can post two or three different versions that don't use primeval but work out about the same. I just like the primeval version since it accomplishes crazy amounts of damage without spellcasting. There's a bit of psionics in there for spice, but the core brokenness of the build comes from the Black Blood Cultist's ability to essentially full attack with all natural weapons. You stack up as many natural attacks as you can cherrypick, and then use iterative grapple attacks to full attack with them. Any route you can find to getting lots of natural attacks unleash the beast.
Alright, let's move off the Octopus issue. I have never seen someone argue against dinosaurs in Eberron, in fact I've seen many go 'omg Flreshraker dinosaur wooo' several times. I've never seen anyone with a problem of ancient guardian squid thing in LotR. His game world has a possibly non-earth evolution of giant squid, and I don't feel like playing pun-pun to find out.
I agree. As I said, I did research when I originally wrote this NPC a while back and satisfied myself it was appropriate for the primeval class. The arguments over the evolution of the octopus are just amusing.
If you move out expanded knowledge for toughness (or maybe improved toughness if you have that house rule) I think the build looks nice and your buddies are in for a big surprise.
You're right, I overlooked that. I'll fix it.
As someone else said, there's an alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana that lets you sacrifice fast movement for toughness, but I have a dislike for anything that isn't stock, so to speak. I never make builds using Gestalt classes, or weird mana-based spellcasting systems, or whatever.
sheesh....
pre historic, here on earth is around 5k to 6k years ago.
in the realms its entirely differnt, im sure in one of the suplements it give a nice timeline, but i dont recall where i would have seen that...
anyway, pre historic is a dm decision all the way around... .
In any case, while a cool theoretical build, I think it fails on the flavor side. So he's a frost-something orc. But he has an affinity for water, so he transforms into an enormous octopus. But wait, he's also psionic. Okay. But wait, he's a a cultist of the People of the Black Blood, whose main base of operations is the Moonwood in the Silver Marches, and who also scheme around Chult.
I think it's going overboard. You fit in a bunch of stuff, abused a broken class feature, good for you, but I'd much rather see something that made sense. How about just a Black Blood Cultist who can shapechange into some crazy abberation with a billion attacks, and get fat iteratives with Imp. Rapidstrike or something?
This octopus discussion is completely inane. There could easily be a dire octopus that's even better than the octopus form he's using.
In any case, while a cool theoretical build, I think it fails on the flavor side. So he's a frost-something orc. But he has an affinity for water, so he transforms into an enormous octopus. But wait, he's also psionic. Okay. But wait, he's a a cultist of the People of the Black Blood, whose main base of operations is the Moonwood in the Silver Marches, and who also scheme around Chult.
I think it's going overboard. You fit in a bunch of stuff, abused a broken class feature, good for you, but I'd much rather see something that made sense. How about just a Black Blood Cultist who can shapechange into some crazy abberation with a billion attacks, and get fat iteratives with Imp. Rapidstrike or something?
Yeah the prehistoric qualifications of an octupus debate is tripping. . .
I totally disagree, but seriously, we don't debate "flavor" issues here because an optimizer comes up with a story just as detailed as a hard core "fluff bunny" justifying all the things he uses, but if we had to do that things would get muddled with backstory optimization...
Further, dayum, its a black blood cultist, who would have thought to use something like that? Thats and obscure combination but in the Realms.. cool points. Lastly, you know once your a special creature more special things happen to you, by virtue of being a frostblood or your life will filled with more rare things than "normal" orcs. There's a theory about that can't rember what its called. . . hmm...
Lastly, you know once your a special creature more special things happen to you, by virtue of being a frostblood or your life will filled with more rare things than "normal" orcs. There's a theory about that can't rember what its called. . . hmm...
Well, I don't know if there's a theory for that, but I do remember a quote from a game, something like: "Strange powers attract even stranger creatures". Or something like that. If anyone wants to check, it was Aoko, the Blue Magician, from Tsukihime.
When he makes a successful grapple check he deals damage as if he'd hit with every natural weapon.
Old thread.
Yet, it is still only one attack. Each grapple check gets the bonus once, not per natural attack the creature has. This is very similar to precision damage and manyshot, one attack, multiple hits, but some types of bonuses are only applied once. Many items can contribute to each natural weapon, but several of the extra dice per attack abilities that have been added would not (because only one attack was made).
Regardless, attempting to say that the giant octopus evolved in the last 5000 years seems fairly unlikely.
Also, as stated, in D&D we can't go with the, existed only in prerecorded time. As dinosaurs still exist in normal D&D.
Still this isn't an issue raw can settle. It specifically says, dire animal, dinosaur or dm approval. I could easily see a giant octopus being dm approved though. Whats more primordeal than the ocean? It makes perfect sense for the PRC.
Old thread.
Yet, it is still only one attack. Each grapple check gets the bonus once, not per natural attack the creature has. This is very similar to precision damage and manyshot, one attack, multiple hits, but some types of bonuses are only applied once. Many items can contribute to each natural weapon, but several of the extra dice per attack abilities that have been added would not (because only one attack was made).
Even when Manyshotting +5 arrows, they all gain the +5 damage bonus. While the volley rules may apply, there's no precision damage in the equation.
In any case, while a cool theoretical build, I think it fails on the flavor side. So he's a frost-something orc. But he has an affinity for water, so he transforms into an enormous octopus. But wait, he's also psionic. Okay. But wait, he's a a cultist of the People of the Black Blood, whose main base of operations is the Moonwood in the Silver Marches, and who also scheme around Chult.
Frostblood Orcs are immune to cold, so he can swim in the freezing waters without problem. As part of his worship of Malar (Black Blood Cultist) he becomes a huge devouring beast and eats people. And ships.
And, sure, he has a wild talent too, that made him leave home at an early age, which exposed him to Malar worship instead of the traditional orc deities, in which he found a home.
See, it all makes sense!
Even when Manyshotting +5 arrows, they all gain the +5 damage bonus. While the volley rules may apply, there's no precision damage in the equation.
You add extra modifiers, but not extra dice. Same rules as for multiples.
You add extra modifiers, but not extra dice. Same rules as for multiples.
Really? Is that in the srd? Interesting...
Frostblood Orcs are immune to cold, so he can swim in the freezing waters without problem. As part of his worship of Malar (Black Blood Cultist) he becomes a huge devouring beast and eats people. And ships.
And, sure, he has a wild talent too, that made him leave home at an early age, which exposed him to Malar worship instead of the traditional orc deities, in which he found a home.
See, it all makes sense!
Malar is the god of lycanthropy, and hunting in forests. All of the rest of the People of the Black Blood are found in forests. Being a Primeval is stretching that. Being a primeval of an ancient cephalopod is stretching that quite a bit further. Being a primeval of an ancient cephalopod while having no contact with the rest of the Cult and hanging out in the middle of the freakin ocean is breaking it.
You add extra modifiers, but not extra dice. Same rules as for multiples.
Well some dice add to all attacks, but not all. For example a +1 flaming bow adds its flaming enchantment to every arrow of a manyshot, but if you were to sneak attack or skirmish attack with that shot then only one arrow would get the bonus sneak attack dice. This is because an enchantment applies to any arrow fired from the weapon, where as a sneak attack applies to the attack itself. Thus 1 manyshot for 3 arrows = 3x enhancement bonuses and only 1x sneak attack bonus.
In the case of the supreme cephalopod orc he isn't actually attacking with all those limbs, they are simply part of the damage calculation of each grapple check. I'll even go one further to point out that a grapple check isn't even an attack, but merely an opposed roll that uses some similar mechanics to an attack. The only attack rolls involved in a grapple are the ones made to initiate it and if someone is actually attacking with weapons as opposed to making opposed grapple check. In the orc's case he shouldn't get any bonus dice at all.
One attack roll must be made for each time you want to add those bonus dice.
In the case of the supreme cephalopod orc he isn't actually attacking with all those limbs, they are simply part of the damage calculation of each grapple check. I'll even go one further to point out that a grapple check isn't even an attack, but merely an opposed roll that uses some similar mechanics to an attack. The only attack rolls involved in a grapple are the ones made to initiate it and if someone is actually attacking with weapons as opposed to making opposed grapple check. In the orc's case he shouldn't get any bonus dice at all.
One attack roll must be made for each time you want to add those bonus dice.
Another thing I just noticed...
Where does it say that you can use all your limbs to damage someone in a grapple?
Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Emphasis mine.
Another thing I just noticed...
Where does it say that you can use all your limbs to damage someone in a grapple?
Savage Grapple from Black Blood Cultist.
One attack roll must be made for each time you want to add those bonus dice.
There's no attack rolls at all. There's a grapple check. And when it is successful, you inflict damage "as if you had hit with all your natural weapons". There's no real way to debate it.
If I have two claws at 1d8+5, and my bite does 2d6+5, then I deal grapple damage+1d8+5+1d8+5+2d6+5.
Emphasis mine.
That section is from the SRD about what you can do while in a grapple. and it gets precisely to the point. A grapple isn't an attack. You can attack while in a grapple, but you have to follow the rules laid out about doing so.
Of course the ability to deal damage with all natural weapons on a grapple check is still allowed (Savage Grapple), but it is simply the result of a grapple check, not an attack.
There's no attack rolls at all. There's a grapple check. And when it is successful, you inflict damage "as if you had hit with all your natural weapons". There's no real way to debate it.
If I have two claws at 1d8+5, and my bite does 2d6+5, then I deal grapple damage+1d8+5+1d8+5+2d6+5.
Thats all well and good, that is a huge portion of the characters damage. I'm talking about punishing stance and rapid assault. You'll notice these two abilities are listed at 14d6 each, where as I'm stating that they do not add any damage at all.
More Like:
Damage per grapple: 1d8+24 (base) + 2d8+9 (constrict) + 8x(1d8+24)+3 tentacles + 3d6+14 (bite) + 2x(3d6+14) (claws) + 6d6+28 (rend) +14d6 (punishing stance) + 14d6 (Rapid Assault)=449 (+49 first round only) = 449/498400 damage per grapple check
Next up is the constrict. This isn't actually a natural weapon, but a special ability that can be used once a grapple is established. It can be used in one of two ways. The first is as its own grapple damage, in which case this would be the base damage instead of the listed 1d8+24. The second method is, if the grapple was initiated by an improved grab, then it can be used as an addition to the base weapon damage in future grapple checks. The downside in the second method is that in order to establish an improved grab the creature has to spend at least on round on regular attacks instead of grappling.
The next item is that I have yet to see how the ShakaUVM plans on having this character grapple before the first round of combat starts? The original listed damage included rapid assault, which means he is assuming the character will grapple before round one begins. Suprise round perhaps?
That section is from the SRD about what you can do while in a grapple. and it gets precisely to the point. A grapple isn't an attack. You can attack while in a grapple, but you have to follow the rules laid out about doing so.
Of course the ability to deal damage with all natural weapons on a grapple check is still allowed (Savage Grapple), but it is simply the result of a grapple check, not an attack.
Savage Attack allows you to roll natural weapon damage without making an attack roll.
That said, if you don't like the bonus dice, I'm sure you could find a substitute. Even if not, it only drops the total damage by -25%.
That said, if you don't like the bonus dice, I'm sure you could find a substitute. Even if not, it only drops the total damage by -25%.
Just trying to keep the character functioning within the rules.
:embarrass
Malar is the god of lycanthropy, and hunting in forests. All of the rest of the People of the Black Blood are found in forests. Being a Primeval is stretching that. Being a primeval of an ancient cephalopod is stretching that quite a bit further. Being a primeval of an ancient cephalopod while having no contact with the rest of the Cult and hanging out in the middle of the freakin ocean is breaking it.
Um, no. Malar isn't restricted to forests. His avatar has appeared on glaciers, etc.
He's the freakin' god of marauding beasts... there's no better match, really.
Tentacle 1 slaps, Improved Grab triggers, damages for every other tentacle as well, followed by Constrict, which triggers Constricting Rend, release.
Tentacle 2 repeats.
And so on, till every tentacle has had a chance to grab+rend.
Any problems with this?
Interesting thought: If you have something like Improved Grab(most octopoid types do), and Constrict, then get Constricting Rend from Savage Species, would that up the damage even further?
Tentacle 1 slaps, Improved Grab triggers, damages for every other tentacle as well, followed by Constrict, which triggers Constricting Rend, release.
Tentacle 2 repeats.
And so on, till every tentacle has had a chance to grab+rend.
Any problems with this?
They get released on their turn, which gives them an easy way to get away.
But it would add an extra 30 or 40 damage on an alpha strike.
If you can only use Primeval for things that don't exist, then it'd be a pretty useless class, now wouldn't it?
Could you work crusader in here for thicked of blades stance?
Doesn't seem like a huge benefit to me to be able to pick people up in AOOs. Without it, you can always grapple people the normal way, and there's not a lot of levels to play around with.
Hang on a sec. Savage Grapple says something like "Whenever you succeed at a grapple check, you deal damage as though you'd hit with all your attacks", right? And Improved Grab usually says something like "When this creature hits with an attack, it immediately starts a grapple as a free action.
I would say you can't start a grapple with a character you're already grappling, so Improved Grab would not apply and the loop falls apart.
I would say you can't start a grapple with a character you're already grappling, so Improved Grab would not apply and the loop falls apart.
Well, his point was that when you rend someone with rending constriction it drops them. So his idea was to basically full attack with improved grab tentacles and get damage with all tentacles+rend on each attack.
However, Rending Constriction drops the person on *their* next turn, not immediately, so the loop doesn't work.
;)
Well, his point was that when you rend someone with rending constriction it drops them. So his idea was to basically full attack with improved grab tentacles and get damage with all tentacles+rend on each attack.
However, Rending Constriction drops the person on *their* next turn, not immediately, so the loop doesn't work.
I might be wrong, but when you're Grappling someone without being considered Grappled, I believe you can just "drop" them as a free action.
I might be wrong, but when you're Grappling someone without being considered Grappled, I believe you can just "drop" them as a free action.
"dropping" someone while in a grapple can be accomplished 2 ways:
1) Full round action, make a grapple/escape artist check against the other grapplers' grapple check
2) If in control of the grapple, make a grapple check in place of an attack to pin your opponent, then as a free action "drop" your opponent.
Wouldn't the Warshaper PrC aid this build? It would allow you to grow natural weapons you didn't have before or increase the damage of natural weapons you already have to the next step.
The Prime Suspect
EDIT: I think you are right about the "without being considered grappled" though.
I might be wrong, but when you're Grappling someone without being considered Grappled, I believe you can just "drop" them as a free action.
There might be a FAQ entry on that, but by default even if you take the -20 with improved grab you can't just drop them as a free action.
Also bravo on defending your char against the onslaught of rules lawyers.
IT'S DUMB! 5 int is not appropriate for anything(maybe barbarian 20)... though it is smart for an animal. It shouldn't have survived past the first few level dips.
the idea is fine, but with an int of 5... such planning is a bit rough, prepping?, knowledge of trade routes? Pirate?
Octopus shape shift aside... the only real problem I have with the character as a whole(without going over it with a fine tooth comb) is....
IT'S DUMB! 5 int is not appropriate for anything(maybe barbarian 20)... though it is smart for an animal. It shouldn't have survived past the first few level dips.
the idea is fine, but with an int of 5... such planning is a bit rough, prepping?, knowledge of trade routes? Pirate?
Ending up with smart people under you who use you as a figure head due to your notorious abilities and combat prowess? Fine.
Any complaints that are about flavor can always be countered by someone using flavor as well. Makes me mad when people try to trot out flavor as a reason something can't exist.
the build doesn't quit fit the described flavor.... lack of skillpoints... base description supposed to be a pirate but the build seems to be more of a giant animal with a lot of tricks(class abilities)
the build is fine(without going over it in detail) and discarding the octopus may or may not be qualifying...
OP did make what he set out to make, a low magic, shape-shifting, grapple master.
IT'S DUMB! 5 int is not appropriate for anything(maybe barbarian 20)... though it is smart for an animal. It shouldn't have survived past the first few level dips.
He doesn't lose the point of int until level 18. He's at the average intelligence of an orc until then.
An Int of 5 corresponds with an IQ roughly around 70-80, which is functional.
And when you have a strength above 50, honestly, nobody is going to complain that you can't string words into sentences very well.
And when you have a strength above 50, honestly, nobody is going to complain that you can't string words into sentences very well.
:heehee
That is some great flavor there! Rule through fear, not respect.
The Prime Suspect
P.S. No one commented on whether a dip into Warshaper would be significant to the build... increase the tentacle attacks a die size would only net 1 point per attack, but that is 1 point times 8 attacks, and those 8 attacks are applied to each grapple check you win... its less than 100 damage but its something.
That is some great flavor there! Rule through fear, not respect.
Hehe, seriously -- who is going to complain to Conan that he ain't book learned?
P.S. No one commented on whether a dip into Warshaper would be significant to the build... increase the tentacle attacks a die size would only net 1 point per attack, but that is 1 point times 8 attacks, and those 8 attacks are applied to each grapple check you win... its less than 100 damage but its something.
I like Warshaper for the build, and had it in the rough draft, but it go optimized out for other choices.
I think the rough draft for this was something like a druid/warshaper/nature's warrior/BBC/War Mind. After doing the math, though, the Primeval won out on damage.
Hehe, seriously -- who is going to complain to Conan that he ain't book learned?
I like Warshaper for the build, and had it in the rough draft, but it go optimized out for other choices.
I think the rough draft for this was something like a druid/warshaper/nature's warrior/BBC/War Mind. After doing the math, though, the Primeval won out on damage.
What about subbing the warshaper in for the warmind? I don't really have time for the math, nor do I have your math to work from to check against, Couldn't the warshaper add a bit of constant damage against the buff depentant psionic levels?
I think its a great build. But I wanted to make it mature a bit earlier, and with no dependency on spells to make it work. I was looking at a Level 14 build to accomplish a the same end, but I found it lacking. Problem is getting 5 levels before the 8 levels of BBC, then finally the first level Primeval is all I can fit into the 14 levels I had to work with. I do think that if I play a character like it I will give it warshaper in place of warmind, and maybe a level or 2 more of primeval, if I ever get the chance to play in a 20th level game. heck it would be a great epic build too.
Also how many attacks do you actually get with a full attack, I didn't understand the formatting in the OP.
The Prime Suspect
Hehe, seriously -- who is going to complain to Conan that he ain't book learned?
Actually, given the lack of equipment, it would be relatively simple to make him of decent intelligence with an item or two.
What about subbing the warshaper in for the warmind? I don't really have time for the math, nor do I have your math to work from to check against, Couldn't the warshaper add a bit of constant damage against the buff depentant psionic levels?
Warmind grants a strength buff, as well as opens up expansion, which is huge. Literally. =)
I think its a great build. But I wanted to make it mature a bit earlier, and with no dependency on spells to make it work.
You could try druid, but BBC is still a lot of levels before you get the big payoff.
Also how many attacks do you actually get with a full attack, I didn't understand the formatting in the OP.
Full attack (grapples) at: +47/+42/+37/+32 at 449/498 damage per successful check. Average damage: 1796/1992 (first round)
or
Full attack: +37/+32/+27/+22 1d8+25 unarmed strike + +32/+32/+32 1d8+14 tentacles + +31/+31/+31/+31/+31 1d8+13 tentacles + +32 3d6+14 bite + +32/+32 3d6+14 claws + 6d6+28 rend = 383.5 average damage. Plus improved grab on tentacle attacks. Plus the first unarmed strike is a DC 22 stunning fist.
So four attacks when making his grapple sequence, or 15 attacks with a normal attack sequence, plus a rend.
So four attacks when making his grapple sequence, or 15 attacks with a normal attack sequence, plus a rend.
Well built, I love it, might have to use it one day on a party I am running for.
The Prime Suspect
Actually, given the lack of equipment, it would be relatively simple to make him of decent intelligence with an item or two.
Yeah, good point.
Actually, he could be doing quite a bit more damage than this, but I like the build to speak for itself instead of mixing too many magic items in to the bunch.
Close Quarters Combat.
I mean, this type of crazy grapple/constrict business is why I suggest ALL of my friends with fighters take CQC. A typical fighter type at level 18 should have around a +25 or +30 to defending against a grapple (18 BAB, 5-10 strength, whatever misc bonuses).
Your octopus-orc-man has a grapple check of +47... Even if someone connects and does TEN damage on a CQC AoO, that almost levels the playing field.
AND YOUR OCTOPUS-ORC-MAN TAKES DAMAGE. That's the killer here... Realistically, these 18th level fighters are going to be wielding 2-handed (15-20)x2 critting weapons, doing a base of 15-ish damage. And I know all of my fighters walk around with bless weapon on their improved crit weapons if at all possible. You're OOM is going to be taking an easy 100 damage if he full attacks against a melee fighter with CQC and won't even get one grapple off.
Another reason why I think grappling at high levels, with modifiers of less than 70-ish, is unfeasible. Oh, that and Freedom of Movement.
-- Gecko
The one thing I can't help but think would shut this NPC down (other than FoM)...
Close Quarters Combat.
Depends. CQC has the pretty big downside that when the gargantuan octopus provokes an AOO, he's 30' away so you can't hit him.
Some people house rule that CQC lets you hit the tentacle, which is reasonable, but according to the Sage, it doesn't work.
Depends. CQC has the pretty big downside that when the gargantuan octopus provokes an AOO, he's 30' away so you can't hit him.
Some people house rule that CQC lets you hit the tentacle, which is reasonable, but according to the Sage, it doesn't work.
According to one of the last few Sage Advice articles, I believe the example was an Ogre reaching his hand over. You couldn't Sneak Attack the hand, but you could hit the hand and it would counter his Grapple.
According to one of the last few Sage Advice articles, I believe the example was an Ogre reaching his hand over. You couldn't Sneak Attack the hand, but you could hit the hand and it would counter his Grapple.
Pretty funny... what if you threw the dagger. Seriously though is it could you add the SA dice to your grapple check anyway?
Pretty funny... what if you threw the dagger. Seriously though is it could you add the SA dice to your grapple check anyway?
I only remembered the part I mentioned. :/
Half Dragon Kraken Barbarian 1/ BBC 8. Gave it shock trooper, improved rapidstrike:arms, and robilars.
If he had remembered that flying creatures can't be tripped the encounter would've worked. The setting sun sage managed to tornado throw it with a whip with greater reach.
My bro and I designed a similar encounter:
Half Dragon Kraken Barbarian 1/ BBC 8. Gave it shock trooper, improved rapidstrike:arms, and robilars.
If he had remembered that flying creatures can't be tripped the encounter would've worked. The setting sun sage managed to tornado throw it with a whip with greater reach.
There's rules for tripping flying creatures. They stall if they have a maneuverability below good.
Yeah, that's a nasty kraken all right.
There's rules for tripping flying creatures. They stall if they have a maneuverability below good.
Yeah, that's a nasty kraken all right.
I think that half dragons have good maneuverability. Could be wrong. Moot point now anyways since the encounter already happened.
The Hawaiʻian creation myth relates that the present cosmos is only the last of a series, having arisen in stages from the wreck of the previous universe. In this account, the octopus is the lone survivor of the previous, alien universe.
Old subject, but I postulate that octopi are actually Pseudonatural creatures in front of this evidence!
...
seriously, though, an interesting build. Primeval needs to see more use.
... Lest they think the tides are safe...! Arrr...
Dmpc? I'll be playing this in the next game! ... Lest they think the tides are safe...! Arrr...
Hmm, just reading through these last posts for the first time in a while. How did the Black Octopus work out for you at your table?
Looking back on it, the build might be a little bit too mean to throw at PCs, but it might be appropriate for superhero level 20 parties.
man you nerds can go off on a tangent! how does a dm npc build lead into a discussion about pre-historic creatures. Dire creature were just prehistoric versions of normal creatures origianally. Can't dire be added to just about anything? Oh wait, i know how this happed. Someone questioned someone else either on syntax or another minor point. They felt then that their Phd in that subject (ie: passing familiarity) was in jeopardy. Thats why these conversations always start out promising then degrade into 'No it isn't..yes it is!' arguments. (btw i'm a nerd too, so don't bother going there
Yeah, seriously.
Flavor-wise and RAW-wise, octopus is a valid choice for Primeval. I think some people just have trouble dealing with any "DM Option" items in the game. It's one of the reasons why I posted it as a DM opponent instead of as a PC build - as a DM-run NPC, it gets the automatic DM okay.