Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Senevri Aug 05, 2009 3:49:05	Well, Su. Wish and Miracle are bad enough, but a smaller bit of cheese comes through what they can do with DCFS. Trade two feats every day? That's a nice bit of versatility worthy of a Factotum, even. In fact, you don't even have to lose feats, just persist two Heroics spells and trade gained feats for ANY feats. Really, though, Dweomerkeeper is so good it makes filling remaining levels with Mystic Theurge worth it, practically.... Speaking of which, have you taken a look at Pathfinder Mystic Theurge? It can cast any spell it knows using either of it's casting classes, at the cost of it being one level higher. So, an Archivist/Sorcerer/PF MT/Dweomerkeeper can add every Sorcerer spell to it's Archivist prayerbook... (via Extra Spell cheese) and also cast all of it's archivist spells spontaneously using 1 level higher Sorcerer slots... Thus being able to cast every possible Sorcerer spells, even if it's by using a 1 level higher Sorcerer slot. For a simple example. *edit* Okay, you're restricted by what you memorized on Archivist side. (although you could have already spent the spell without it preventing you from casting it.)
#2 tshern Aug 05, 2009 5:39:37	Well, Su. Wish and Miracle are bad enough, but a smaller bit of cheese comes through what they can do with DCFS. Trade two feats every day? That's a nice bit of versatility worthy of a Factotum, even. Spellcasters pretty much automatically are more versatile than Factotums anyway. Such is the nature of spells. In fact, you don't even have to lose feats, just persist two Heroics spells and trade gained feats for ANY feats. Requires Ocular spell or some other method of persisting touch spells. Really, though, Dweomerkeeper is so good it makes filling remaining levels with Mystic Theurge worth it, practically.... Really? With the standard issue Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2 entry you will be hard pressed to squeeze in six levels of Dweomerkeeper. Other entries tend not to be worth it anyway. So, an Archivist/Sorcerer/PF MT/Dweomerkeeper can add every Sorcerer spell to it's Archivist prayerbook... (via Extra Spell cheese) and also cast all of it's archivist spells spontaneously using 1 level higher Sorcerer slots... Thus being able to cast every possible Sorcerer spells, even if it's by using a 1 level higher Sorcerer slot. For a simple example. Extra spell cheese is hardly an exclusive Dweomerkeeper trick. If I recall correctly, Secret page can do this too. Also, I am not interested in Pathfinder, so I have not read the Mystic Theurge entry, but could the 'use a spell of one level higher' somehow be circumvented by using Sanctum spell and extradimensional spaces? I mean, pick an Acorn of Far Travel from your Haversack, sacrifice a spell, drop it back to the bag and grab the profits. This could mean you can change spells to any spell of equal level...
#3 Senevri Aug 05, 2009 6:02:07	Spellcasters pretty much automatically are more versatile than Factotums anyway. Such is the nature of spells. Point. Requires Ocular spell or some other method of persisting touch spells. Ah. And that's been contested, too. Really? With the standard issue Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2 entry you will be hard pressed to squeeze in six levels of Dweomerkeeper. Other entries tend not to be worth it anyway. Hmm. Well, depends on the power level of a particular campaign. A standard build would abandon top level spells from one side, at least. Extra spell cheese is hardly an exclusive Dweomerkeeper trick. If I recall correctly, Secret page can do this too. Not sure how that went... I guess a plain Chameleon can do that too, so it's not that special - just access to Extra Spell + ability to change that feat. Also, I am not interested in Pathfinder, so I have not read the Mystic Theurge entry, but could the 'use a spell of one level higher' somehow be circumvented by using Sanctum spell and extradimensional spaces? I mean, pick an Acorn of Far Travel from your Haversack, sacrifice a spell, drop it back to the bag and grab the profits. This could mean you can change spells to any spell of equal level... It's a rather interesting set of house rules. I like a large chunk of them, especially the Rogue, and the skills which are similar to SAGA, albeit some of the combinations aren't that reasonable. A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells using the available slots from any of his available spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists.
#4 tshern Aug 05, 2009 6:11:37	Ocular spell has indeed been contested, although I am not quite sure why is it even worth a debate. Then again, the Sword and Board thread went on for eons. The Extra spell trickery here indeed works, but there already is a huge thread about the feat changing tricks and ways to do it for free. Hmm. Well, depends on the power level of a particular campaign. A standard build would abandon top level spells from one side, at least. Of course. As to what Pathfinder provides: Change for the sake of change rather than fixing actual problems. However, that is not the debate here. And the wording seems to shoot down my Sanctum spell idea. For some reason I thought Sanctum spell was casting class specific, which was a prerequisite for the trick. Oh well...