A character that doesn't kill? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A character that doesn't kill?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rhig
Dec 12, 2008 9:32:50 I've been toying with the idea of a character that vowed never to take the life of another creature. Sort of like Vash the Stampede from "Trigun" or Kenshin from "Rurouni Kenshin".

I thought about different versions that the character could have - like a rogue or a fighter-ish character that uses the Subduing Strike feat, or a wizard that took Vow of Nonviolence and uses nonlethal, nonfatal spells to defeat his enemies, or a cleric that heals his dying enemies and even brings them back to life if their HP drops bellow -10. But in every version of the character I could think of, I just couldn't find enough bits to fill in. Like an appropriate PrC or feats other than the scarce few I could find in BoED.
Do you guys have any ideas of good PrCs/Feats/Equipments/Spells that can be used in such builds? Or maybe even an idea for a build that utilizes the "no-killing" principle that I haven't thought of?

P.S.
Although this kind of character will surely make it a bit tough for other characters in the party to do their thing, I'm trying to keep that hinderence to a minimum. So Vow of Peace is out of the picture.
#2
Senevri
Dec 12, 2008 9:54:22 Self-whazzacallit, hype:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14742977&postcount=891

More of a flavor build, but blasts people with Nonlethal Sonic Rumbles.
Specifically, this one blasted people with 15d6 base damage sonic rumbles, for CL rounds. Starting at lv 11.

With Swift Concentration, TWO of them running at once. 30d6 for CL rounds. Without metamagic. Although, the intention was to convert those to 10ftx240ft lines with Sculpt + Widen, IIRC. Probably need to snatch Heighten to up the damage to 38d6/round.

Still, 30d6 at lv11 (if you get a bonus spell or juggle Versatile Spellcaster to an earlier slot) is somewhat impressive.

Still, not optimized for damage - deals nonlethal and has an Item Familiar.
You want to cheese it up, Arcane Thesis + Empower + Earth spell, means you get 30d6 for single, 60d6 for two running at once. It's not terrible cheese, but I just like blasting long continuous lines of power, twice my height. Talk about a literal glass CANNON.

Or just Thesis + Empower + Practical Metamagic nets you 27d6xCL from the 5th level slot. Your Twin Heighten'd ones from a 8th level slot are 60d6xCL. You could add, oh, Admixture + Versatile to the, heh, mix, to cast 15d6 + 15d6 +10d6 + 15d6 twice, from a 10th level slot for 110d6xCL, or 110d6/Round. If you have Sculpt Spell, you can even do neat stuff with it's area for free.

Actually, with Swift Concentration + Sonorous Hum, you can have THREE of these running at once. By dropping a Radiant Assault on them, they might not even be able to move. So, 15d6 + 90d6. For kicks, you're using a Metamagic Maximize rod, right? So, that's 500ish points of damage, for quite a few rounds.
heightened to 9th, Radiant Assault has a DC of at least 32. It also Dazes, to which no-one is immune to without Favor of The Martyr, pretty much.

Tactics: Cast Sonorous Hum, take a position about 200ft. from target. Blast 'em with MAXIMUM POWER, and DOUBLE and then TRIPLE the blasting power the following rounds.

You can also throw around 9d6+10d4 Resonating Bolts, which do full damage on objects, and if they destroy an object, continue past it unhindered. Can you say Dungeon Bypass? (it even refers the White Devil! ^_^)
#3
pithica
Dec 12, 2008 11:24:24 A caster that doesn't kill is fairly easy with the right Save or Lose/Debuff spells.

Drain a target entirely of one attribute and they're helpless (as long as it isn't Con, it won't actually kill them in and of itself). Give them the Stunned or Dazed condition for long enough and they're helpless. Put them to sleep or dominate them or something similar, and they're helpless.

Just play a standard debuffer/BC wiz or sorceror with good spell choices and you're golden, you'll actually make your party somewhat stronger than average, and you'll be able to role-play the type of character you want with no trouble.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 isn't exactly optimal, but it works (and how), and is fairly straightforward. Drop Evocation unless you plan on using Ot's TK sphere or something similar (or you want to use the non-lethal gouda discussed above).
#4
rasmus_wagner
Dec 12, 2008 12:21:14 The question is, what do you do with your foes once you've peacefully vanquished them?
#5
tonymitsu
Dec 12, 2008 12:35:21 Any number of things:

-Turn the villains over to the proper authorities for their just punishment (and of course stay if necessary to ensure fair treatment).

-Put them on the path of redemption by suggesting an appropriate penance. Visit them occasionally to see how they are coming along.

-Offer to allow them to travel with you to be able to redeem themselves by showing them first-hand how to live peacefully and change themselves for the better.

...do you guys have any idea how difficult and time-consuming it is to be the good guy? o.O
#6
gilfalas_elaandrin
Dec 12, 2008 12:49:29 I belive the PHB 2 has a lot of relatively potent spells that do only non lethal damage. I believe one is even 4th level and it does 'the targets current hit points in non lethal damage'. Could easily be something you can use as a caster in there.

Plus of course, weapons with the Merciful enhancement on them if your meleeing.
#7
CantripN
Dec 12, 2008 12:54:50 That works for simple humanoids, sure. Care to try redeeming charging Orcs or perhaps Drow? Mind Flayers, maybe?

On a more social-based campaign, I can see it working, but it's really odd in Hack & Slash kinds of games.
#8
BloodDragon
Dec 12, 2008 12:55:55 Alternately you could just be a buffer like a War-Weave and not touch the enemy at all... but really beef up your party.

I found Anime Characters were too hard to copy as most Anime characters you watch are already level 20 (or higher)... In fact the only one I've ever tried to copy myself was- well Vash. Mean while you are startnig at level 1-3 Best to give up any presuits of "excat" copies as it's harder to pull off when you don't control the story or "lucky" shots.

Also good suggestions in this thread already.
#9
Senevri
Dec 12, 2008 13:14:40 You only tried to copy the guy that can dodge bullets and blow up cities?
I can see how that could be difficult

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=424838
has a number of Anime characters. Generally, Psionics do it easier, though.

Most Anime characters do usually require at least ten levels, admittedly. Six is probably minimum, most of the time.
Remember, a typical Jump hero gains a whole bunch of levels during series, so your target should usually be what abilities they have AT THE VERY BEGINNING of the series.

Naruto, for an example, DOESN'T have much of anything at first, then learns Kage Bunshin... which is all he has for a rather long while. Mechanically, he probably starts out with something like, oh, a whole bunch of weak Astral Constructs, to start with. (Although you'd eventually need to find a way to disguise them as Naruto himself. ) Alternatively, on magic side, Mirror Image duplicates a large part of the effect.
#10
BloodDragon
Dec 12, 2008 13:59:17
Naruto, for an example, DOESN'T have much of anything at first, then learns Kage Bunshin... which is all he has for a rather long while. Mechanically, he probably starts out with something like, oh, a whole bunch of weak Astral Constructs, to start with. (Although you'd eventually need to find a way to disguise them as Naruto himself. ) Alternatively, on magic side, Mirror Image duplicates a large part of the effect.

Actaully you're point was closer to what I was trying to convey.
"You can't have it all- all at once."

For instance many in Xaktsaroth's thread there need to be level 15+ to pull off their Schtick. Granted there are a few that can do it at level 1. But "Completely disabling your all of your opponents while not killing them is usually Wizard or high level grounds.

Don't let me put you off Rhig, obviously play what you want to- Just a friendly warning is all.
#11
jaronk
Dec 12, 2008 14:02:35 Diplomancer would totally do it! Just go Binder 1/Warlock 1/Marshal 1/Bard 17, and make everybody your friend, then convince them to be good.

JaronK
#12
BloodDragon
Dec 12, 2008 14:19:27 Actaully to be a little more useful:

Take levels Cleric or some other way to gain DMM (Presist) and Avenger (Assassin Varient) and Presist that Spell in Comp. Mage that reduces death attack study time to 1 round. Then use the Death attack's Stun option to disable all of your opponents.

Presist Sniper's Eye (Comp.Ad), and focus in firearms. Not sure if Sniper's Eye is Presistable but the other spell should be.

Follow up wtih Blackflame Zealot (Or something similiar) to help with your Death Attack DC. There is a thread in the Surreal Dex that helps maximize DA DC.
#13
emansdrawkcab
Dec 12, 2008 14:43:27 Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty? Buffing, battlfield controlling and utility casting.
#14
ninjarabbit
Dec 12, 2008 17:38:43 Another idea is a fear-based character that uses stacking fear effects to make his enemies panicked and run away. You can use feats like frightful presence, imtimidating rage, and dreadful wrath, the intimidate skill (5 ranks of bluff gets you a +2 bonus and marshal lets you double your cha modifier to intimidate checks), and spells like cause fear, scare, and fear. There's a lot of directions you could go with this.

Here's a quick sample build:

battlesorcerer6 (gets intimdate as a class skill)

1-dreadful wrath, draconic heritage
3-draconic presence
6-frightful presence
#15
Grumman
Dec 13, 2008 5:14:44 Three words:

Chain. Baleful. Polymorph.
#16
runestar
Dec 13, 2008 6:13:51 Crank your diplomacy check up to +150 and turn them all into your fanatic followers...:P
#17
Senevri
Dec 13, 2008 7:52:58 I've been wanting to make a Bard->Dreadwitch build at some point. Bards get Haunting Melody which is a 30ft fear burst, with DC of 10+half bard level+Charisma Mod. Dread Witch's Horrific Aura. That is enough to make cannon fodder Frightened, unless the DM is using the alt rules from HoH, which mean... -4 to everything, IIRC. Nightmare Spinner is a natural addition. Bard 4/Dread Witch 5/Lyric Thaum 1/Sublime Chord 2/Nightmare Spinner 3/X 5, would be the build. Needs Extra Music, though.

- Two level dip to Avenging Executioner nets Rapid Intimidation.

Alternatively non-lethal:
Rogues can go non-lethal at third level, picking Merciful Strike from Complete Scoundrel. A Merciful weapon nets this back.

A Monk can do Nonlethal by default, but isn't at first, terribly efficient with it. However, after level 8, you can enter Justicar. Grapple focus + Improved Hog-tie actually end fights rather quick. combine with Masterwork rope and proper skill foci. You can get this down-right silly with at least 3 levels of cleric and Practiced Spellcaster, adding +9 to the check, or with Exemplar...
Hm. a 20th level potential build could have Use Rope at, oh, 31+dex easily.

In fact, a damage-optimized monk can use all of their tricks -- and still do non-lethal, most of the time.

Dang, now I'm looking at some weird super-hero build using Justicar/Bloodhound/Vigilante or somesuch :/

A Monk/Ascetic Rogue would do well, probably.
#18
reis
Dec 13, 2008 12:18:17 another possibility for vow of peace is a psion(telepath) who just charms or dominates her foes and forces them to turn to good. There are some moral issues to work out but the character build is solid.
#19
Endarire
Dec 13, 2008 19:49:24 These roles can overlap. A debuffing wizard can also fill most level 3 slots with dispel magic to counterspell, and he can also dabble in buffing.

1: Crowd controller and debuffer. Grease, entangle, slow, ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust are greatly effective and not directly damaging.

2: Healer. You hate inflicting pain; healing others' injuries seems like just the job!

3: Scout. Spotting enemies while sneaking or climbing or scrying doesn't directly damage them.

4: Socialite. Not only can you prevent foes from hurting you with massive Bluff and Diplomacy, they can become your bestest friends if done properly!

5: Buffer. Mage armor, bless, haste, invisibility, water breathing, polymorph, and barkskin are just some of the ways you can optimize your party while remaining directly nonviolent.

6: Counterspeller. You can spare your party members grief by ensuring no foes can get a spell off.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rhig Dec 12, 2008 9:32:50	I've been toying with the idea of a character that vowed never to take the life of another creature. Sort of like Vash the Stampede from "Trigun" or Kenshin from "Rurouni Kenshin". I thought about different versions that the character could have - like a rogue or a fighter-ish character that uses the Subduing Strike feat, or a wizard that took Vow of Nonviolence and uses nonlethal, nonfatal spells to defeat his enemies, or a cleric that heals his dying enemies and even brings them back to life if their HP drops bellow -10. But in every version of the character I could think of, I just couldn't find enough bits to fill in. Like an appropriate PrC or feats other than the scarce few I could find in BoED. Do you guys have any ideas of good PrCs/Feats/Equipments/Spells that can be used in such builds? Or maybe even an idea for a build that utilizes the "no-killing" principle that I haven't thought of? P.S. Although this kind of character will surely make it a bit tough for other characters in the party to do their thing, I'm trying to keep that hinderence to a minimum. So Vow of Peace is out of the picture.
#2 Senevri Dec 12, 2008 9:54:22	Self-whazzacallit, hype: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14742977&postcount=891 More of a flavor build, but blasts people with Nonlethal Sonic Rumbles. Specifically, this one blasted people with 15d6 base damage sonic rumbles, for CL rounds. Starting at lv 11. With Swift Concentration, TWO of them running at once. 30d6 for CL rounds. Without metamagic. Although, the intention was to convert those to 10ftx240ft lines with Sculpt + Widen, IIRC. Probably need to snatch Heighten to up the damage to 38d6/round. Still, 30d6 at lv11 (if you get a bonus spell or juggle Versatile Spellcaster to an earlier slot) is somewhat impressive. Still, not optimized for damage - deals nonlethal and has an Item Familiar. You want to cheese it up, Arcane Thesis + Empower + Earth spell, means you get 30d6 for single, 60d6 for two running at once. It's not terrible cheese, but I just like blasting long continuous lines of power, twice my height. Talk about a literal glass CANNON. Or just Thesis + Empower + Practical Metamagic nets you 27d6xCL from the 5th level slot. Your Twin Heighten'd ones from a 8th level slot are 60d6xCL. You could add, oh, Admixture + Versatile to the, heh, mix, to cast 15d6 + 15d6 +10d6 + 15d6 twice, from a 10th level slot for 110d6xCL, or 110d6/Round. If you have Sculpt Spell, you can even do neat stuff with it's area for free. Actually, with Swift Concentration + Sonorous Hum, you can have THREE of these running at once. By dropping a Radiant Assault on them, they might not even be able to move. So, 15d6 + 90d6. For kicks, you're using a Metamagic Maximize rod, right? So, that's 500ish points of damage, for quite a few rounds. heightened to 9th, Radiant Assault has a DC of at least 32. It also Dazes, to which no-one is immune to without Favor of The Martyr, pretty much. Tactics: Cast Sonorous Hum, take a position about 200ft. from target. Blast 'em with MAXIMUM POWER, and DOUBLE and then TRIPLE the blasting power the following rounds. You can also throw around 9d6+10d4 Resonating Bolts, which do full damage on objects, and if they destroy an object, continue past it unhindered. Can you say Dungeon Bypass? (it even refers the White Devil! ^_^)
#3 pithica Dec 12, 2008 11:24:24	A caster that doesn't kill is fairly easy with the right Save or Lose/Debuff spells. Drain a target entirely of one attribute and they're helpless (as long as it isn't Con, it won't actually kill them in and of itself). Give them the Stunned or Dazed condition for long enough and they're helpless. Put them to sleep or dominate them or something similar, and they're helpless. Just play a standard debuffer/BC wiz or sorceror with good spell choices and you're golden, you'll actually make your party somewhat stronger than average, and you'll be able to role-play the type of character you want with no trouble. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 isn't exactly optimal, but it works (and how), and is fairly straightforward. Drop Evocation unless you plan on using Ot's TK sphere or something similar (or you want to use the non-lethal gouda discussed above).
#4 rasmus_wagner Dec 12, 2008 12:21:14	The question is, what do you do with your foes once you've peacefully vanquished them?
#5 tonymitsu Dec 12, 2008 12:35:21	Any number of things: -Turn the villains over to the proper authorities for their just punishment (and of course stay if necessary to ensure fair treatment). -Put them on the path of redemption by suggesting an appropriate penance. Visit them occasionally to see how they are coming along. -Offer to allow them to travel with you to be able to redeem themselves by showing them first-hand how to live peacefully and change themselves for the better. ...do you guys have any idea how difficult and time-consuming it is to be the good guy? o.O
#6 gilfalas_elaandrin Dec 12, 2008 12:49:29	I belive the PHB 2 has a lot of relatively potent spells that do only non lethal damage. I believe one is even 4th level and it does 'the targets current hit points in non lethal damage'. Could easily be something you can use as a caster in there. Plus of course, weapons with the Merciful enhancement on them if your meleeing.
#7 CantripN Dec 12, 2008 12:54:50	That works for simple humanoids, sure. Care to try redeeming charging Orcs or perhaps Drow? Mind Flayers, maybe? On a more social-based campaign, I can see it working, but it's really odd in Hack & Slash kinds of games.
#8 BloodDragon Dec 12, 2008 12:55:55	Alternately you could just be a buffer like a War-Weave and not touch the enemy at all... but really beef up your party. I found Anime Characters were too hard to copy as most Anime characters you watch are already level 20 (or higher)... In fact the only one I've ever tried to copy myself was- well Vash. Mean while you are startnig at level 1-3 Best to give up any presuits of "excat" copies as it's harder to pull off when you don't control the story or "lucky" shots. Also good suggestions in this thread already.
#9 Senevri Dec 12, 2008 13:14:40	You only tried to copy the guy that can dodge bullets and blow up cities? I can see how that could be difficult http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=424838 has a number of Anime characters. Generally, Psionics do it easier, though. Most Anime characters do usually require at least ten levels, admittedly. Six is probably minimum, most of the time. Remember, a typical Jump hero gains a whole bunch of levels during series, so your target should usually be what abilities they have AT THE VERY BEGINNING of the series. Naruto, for an example, DOESN'T have much of anything at first, then learns Kage Bunshin... which is all he has for a rather long while. Mechanically, he probably starts out with something like, oh, a whole bunch of weak Astral Constructs, to start with. (Although you'd eventually need to find a way to disguise them as Naruto himself. ) Alternatively, on magic side, Mirror Image duplicates a large part of the effect.
#10 BloodDragon Dec 12, 2008 13:59:17	Naruto, for an example, DOESN'T have much of anything at first, then learns Kage Bunshin... which is all he has for a rather long while. Mechanically, he probably starts out with something like, oh, a whole bunch of weak Astral Constructs, to start with. (Although you'd eventually need to find a way to disguise them as Naruto himself. ) Alternatively, on magic side, Mirror Image duplicates a large part of the effect. Actaully you're point was closer to what I was trying to convey. "You can't have it all- all at once." For instance many in Xaktsaroth's thread there need to be level 15+ to pull off their Schtick. Granted there are a few that can do it at level 1. But "Completely disabling your all of your opponents while not killing them is usually Wizard or high level grounds. Don't let me put you off Rhig, obviously play what you want to- Just a friendly warning is all.
#11 jaronk Dec 12, 2008 14:02:35	Diplomancer would totally do it! Just go Binder 1/Warlock 1/Marshal 1/Bard 17, and make everybody your friend, then convince them to be good. JaronK
#12 BloodDragon Dec 12, 2008 14:19:27	Actaully to be a little more useful: Take levels Cleric or some other way to gain DMM (Presist) and Avenger (Assassin Varient) and Presist that Spell in Comp. Mage that reduces death attack study time to 1 round. Then use the Death attack's Stun option to disable all of your opponents. Presist Sniper's Eye (Comp.Ad), and focus in firearms. Not sure if Sniper's Eye is Presistable but the other spell should be. Follow up wtih Blackflame Zealot (Or something similiar) to help with your Death Attack DC. There is a thread in the Surreal Dex that helps maximize DA DC.
#13 emansdrawkcab Dec 12, 2008 14:43:27	Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty? Buffing, battlfield controlling and utility casting.
#14 ninjarabbit Dec 12, 2008 17:38:43	Another idea is a fear-based character that uses stacking fear effects to make his enemies panicked and run away. You can use feats like frightful presence, imtimidating rage, and dreadful wrath, the intimidate skill (5 ranks of bluff gets you a +2 bonus and marshal lets you double your cha modifier to intimidate checks), and spells like cause fear, scare, and fear. There's a lot of directions you could go with this. Here's a quick sample build: battlesorcerer6 (gets intimdate as a class skill) 1-dreadful wrath, draconic heritage 3-draconic presence 6-frightful presence
#15 Grumman Dec 13, 2008 5:14:44	Three words: Chain. Baleful. Polymorph.
#16 runestar Dec 13, 2008 6:13:51	Crank your diplomacy check up to +150 and turn them all into your fanatic followers...:P
#17 Senevri Dec 13, 2008 7:52:58	I've been wanting to make a Bard->Dreadwitch build at some point. Bards get Haunting Melody which is a 30ft fear burst, with DC of 10+half bard level+Charisma Mod. Dread Witch's Horrific Aura. That is enough to make cannon fodder Frightened, unless the DM is using the alt rules from HoH, which mean... -4 to everything, IIRC. Nightmare Spinner is a natural addition. Bard 4/Dread Witch 5/Lyric Thaum 1/Sublime Chord 2/Nightmare Spinner 3/X 5, would be the build. Needs Extra Music, though. - Two level dip to Avenging Executioner nets Rapid Intimidation. Alternatively non-lethal: Rogues can go non-lethal at third level, picking Merciful Strike from Complete Scoundrel. A Merciful weapon nets this back. A Monk can do Nonlethal by default, but isn't at first, terribly efficient with it. However, after level 8, you can enter Justicar. Grapple focus + Improved Hog-tie actually end fights rather quick. combine with Masterwork rope and proper skill foci. You can get this down-right silly with at least 3 levels of cleric and Practiced Spellcaster, adding +9 to the check, or with Exemplar... Hm. a 20th level potential build could have Use Rope at, oh, 31+dex easily. In fact, a damage-optimized monk can use all of their tricks -- and still do non-lethal, most of the time. Dang, now I'm looking at some weird super-hero build using Justicar/Bloodhound/Vigilante or somesuch :/ A Monk/Ascetic Rogue would do well, probably.
#18 reis Dec 13, 2008 12:18:17	another possibility for vow of peace is a psion(telepath) who just charms or dominates her foes and forces them to turn to good. There are some moral issues to work out but the character build is solid.
#19 Endarire Dec 13, 2008 19:49:24	These roles can overlap. A debuffing wizard can also fill most level 3 slots with dispel magic to counterspell, and he can also dabble in buffing. 1: Crowd controller and debuffer. Grease, entangle, slow, ray of enfeeblement, glitterdust are greatly effective and not directly damaging. 2: Healer. You hate inflicting pain; healing others' injuries seems like just the job! 3: Scout. Spotting enemies while sneaking or climbing or scrying doesn't directly damage them. 4: Socialite. Not only can you prevent foes from hurting you with massive Bluff and Diplomacy, they can become your bestest friends if done properly! 5: Buffer. Mage armor, bless, haste, invisibility, water breathing, polymorph, and barkskin are just some of the ways you can optimize your party while remaining directly nonviolent. 6: Counterspeller. You can spare your party members grief by ensuring no foes can get a spell off.