Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Katrex Feb 25, 2011 19:19:02	Hi guys. Need some help creating a charecter for one of my players. I went through charecter concept with said player and we eventualy settled with a somewhat gladatorial, cloaked dancer type. I guess the fundamentals involved are the folowing: Needs to play from level 1 Concealment/ miss chance from swirling cloak Feinting or some other method of keeping oponent off balance. Able to use multiple weapons ( also to keep oponents off balance and for fun) Rogue like abilities ( like trap finding) he's not keen on Not hide centric, using shadows to unerve his oponent right in there face is more his style over staying in shadows and sneak attacking from range. Info about character. Starts at level 1. 32 point buy from stats starting at 10. No stat can start at 18. Assume human unless race is specifically NEEDed for build. Anyideas builds sugestions feats etc? P.s.  The charecter will get some "magical gifts" themed around light dark and shadow so if you can get any light and dark like abilities in to the build then bonus points.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 25, 2011 21:48:20	Hi guys. Need some help creating a charecter for one of my players. I went through charecter concept with said player and we eventualy settled with a somewhat gladatorial, cloaked dancer type. Ooh, this should be fun. I guess the fundamentals involved are the folowing: Needs to play from level 1 Concealment/ miss chance from swirling cloak Feinting or some other method of keeping oponent off balance. Able to use multiple weapons ( also to keep oponents off balance and for fun) Rogue like abilities ( like trap finding) he's not keen on Not hide centric, using shadows to unerve his oponent right in there face is more his style over staying in shadows and sneak attacking from range. You've basically described a Swordsage, with Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand abilities. Shadow Hand even has access to the Shadow Blade feat, which lets you use Dex to damage with an array of weapons, so you don't need to be Mr. Beefy to be lethal in melee. The miss chance can easily emerge from the use of the Cloak Dance feat at later levels, but at lower levels your best bet is using the Tome of Battle to get access to the Shadow Hand stance Child of Shadow, which gives you a 20% miss chance on any round that you move at least 10' away from where you started. I think it's technically supernatural, but the descriptive elements could easily be changed. Shadow Hand is also basically made of deception. There are several moves within it to catch people off guard, although most are written up as ambush abilities (they get good feats to enable these, though, including Gloom Razor. You may need to Hide to use this, but it's more of the "temporary misdirection" style of hiding rather than the traditional sort. Think any wuxia ninja that's already been revealed: you know they're there, but after a quick diversion they're gone and hitting you from another angle.). Diamond Mind maneuvers involve seeing through your opponent's actions through sheer focus, which you then exploit by acting instantly, without delay (it works wonders as a typical fencing-style). Setting Sun is also all about unbalancing the opponent, typically through counterattacks that trip the opponent and wind up throwing them around. The use of multiple weapons can be handled easily - maneuvers are not weapon-specific. You could pick up a dagger and use a few maneuvers, throw the dagger, pick up a spear and keep going, and so on. If you *really* need weapon feats, dip into Warblade at some point for Weapon Aptitude (lets you retrain weapon-related feats from one weapon to another once per day), but that shouldn't be necessary. (NOTE: The Tome of Battle mentions "favored weapons" for each discipline, but these are NOT needed to pull of maneuvers. They're just there for style, although certain feats only work with favored weapons.) So, yeah, everything mentioned so far is perfect Swordsage.  Possible alternatives include Bard (for Snowflake Wardance [Frostburn], essentially the dancer's equivalent to Rage), Dervish (PrC in Complete Warrior, has a ragelike ablity called Dervish Dance based around moving through the field with scimitars or a falchion), and Invisible Blade (probably one of the best feint-based classes ever, but I think it only works with daggers). Info about character. Starts at level 1. 32 point buy from stats starting at 10. No stat can start at 18. Assume human unless race is specifically NEEDed for build. Anyideas builds sugestions feats etc? See above for Swordsage. They're made to work with Dexterity and Wisdom as their key abilities, especially with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. They tend to use an assortment of weapons (and get Discipline Focus abilities that give them minor bonuses with families of weapons) and light armor, and have a pretty good range of skills. They also have some minor magical abilities, such as the ability to identify magical equipment, but these show up at higher levels. They are extremely playable at every level, and it's very hard to make a *bad* swordsage (or any martial adept, really). However, in order to make a really good one, it helps to plan your maneuvers in advance. For skills, your build probably needs Tumble, Perform (Dance; it fits and pleases crowds), Hide (yes, it's needed), Bluff (to create diversions and feint), Concentration (used for Diamond Mind moves) and Sense Motive (to resist feints). I know the swordsage gets most of these (maybe all of them, I'm AFB).  Swordsages work best with Adaptive Style as a feat - normally, they spend a full-round action to recover a single maneuver. Adaptive Style essentially lets them recover (and change!) their entire list as a full-round action. They also work well with Extra Readied Maneuver, to expand their options in battle, but whether that's worth a feat slot or not depends on the build. There are other fun feats present; the ones I listed above were Shadow Blade and Gloom Razor. I'm sure if you read the book you'll come up with a huge list of fun maneuvers. The issue is getting the list pared down to a managable level. I'd suggest you start with Burning Blade, Mighty Throw, Distracting Ember (note: describe it as catching the sun on the edge of your blade and blinding them; the description mentions a fire elemental but the mechanics don't really reference it), Sapphire Nightmare Blade, (another Shadow Hand maneuver), and Counter Charge, with Child of Shadow as your stance. P.s.  The charecter will get some "magical gifts" themed around light dark and shadow so if you can get any light and dark like abilities in to the build then bonus points. Swordsage. Use Shadow Hand for darkness, Desert Wind for light (the fire is described as like the desert sun and scorching wind).  You get piles of maneuvers known and readied, so you can afford to dabble a bit, although most of Desert Wind doesn't scale too well into the higher levels (it can be devastating at lower levels though). In fact, at later levels, adding in the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class (which is easy as pie for swordsages that use Shadow Hand and Setting Sun) gets you not only light and dark abilities, but themed, paired light and dark abilities (i.e. you use a dark ability one round and on the next round get its light ability counterpart, and vice versa). Examples include Touch of the Shadow Sun (deal negative energy on a touch attack, heal that much damage by touch next round), Light within Darkness (if you hide from an enemy and hit them on the following round, you reappear in a flash of light, blinding them briefly) and Child of Shadow and Light (a stance that swiches each round from projecting dazzlingly bright light to projecting total darkness). It's technically a monk class, but the swordsage is close enough. (You'll need Improved Unarmed Strike or a monk level to get in, so consider the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from that book to make the best use of your unarmed abilities in addition to your weapons. Also, if you choose the monk route, you might actually consider 2 levels of Monk instead of 1, for Evasion and an extra bonus feat. Be sure to read up on how Tome of Battle multiclassing works before you do this, since it's a bit tricky to master.) In fact, Swordsage 1 / Monk 2 / Swordsage +5 / Shadow Sun Ninja 10 (throw in 2 extra Swordsage levels at certain points in the Shadow Sun Ninja for best effect, since you'll want to learn more maneuvers than the SSN provides) probably gets you the most bang for your buck, and isn't all that hard to plan out. You'd start getting 2nd level maneuvers from your 2nd swordsage level, and you'd get a pretty potent AC bonus if you go unarmored (the swordsage version is different from the monk version, so you can hypothetically get Wis-to-AC twice). Fitting in Superior Unarmed Strike gives you some pretty serious unarmed strike damage from a low level, and since you're a monk, you can use them as "off-hand" weapons in a TWF-routine with no damage penalty (i.e. strike with your spear and then kick them in the face. You'd need TWF to do this without a serious penalty; this isn't a flurry, so you aren't limited to monk weapons, although if you do use those you can still flurry. If your DM objects, take Snap Kick as well, which explicitly lets you do this, and can combine with strikes). Your maneuvers are very open; all you need is a 2nd-level one from each of Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, and the rest is free to choose. But yes, in summary, grab the Tome of Battle and read the Swordsage (and the Shadow Sun Ninja), paying attention to Shadow Hand and Desert Wind (remembering that descriptions can be changed!), along with Setting Sun and Diamond Mind to round it out.
#3 Katrex Feb 26, 2011 7:12:59	Hmm yes. Sounds good. I hadn't considered tome of battle. It does seem like the best way to do this build. I had considered dervish swashbuckler rogue but its not that great and this seems to give him all the options he needs. The only realy disadvantage is that the abilities are based of wisdom while his charecter uses charisma in a fight. Meh maybe i'll just mod the class's to give ac based of charisma and sword sage abilities of charisma too, probably not too op?