I know this isn't the best way to prove a point, but I was having a discussion with someone over whether or not the core classes were 'balanced.' As in, with all things being equal, that a warrior-type is just as powerful as a spellcaster at high levels.
A contest was mentioned wherein we would pit 2 20th-level characters head-to-head in a PvP situation, and see who could trash the other the quickest.
To prove my point, I told him that I would only use Core material (PHB, MM, and DMG), and I would allow him to use any 3.5 splatbooks, so long as he took Fighter 20 straight through. The following are what we have so far for the contest:
1.) We use 3.5 rules as written (with a small amount of interpretation for leeway concerning confusing issues). No major rewrites or errata. I am restricted to the core rulebooks, while he can use splatbooks (so long as they're 3.5).
2.) Each of us takes a 20th-level base-class all the way to 20 (with 200,000 xp), +0 LA races only - unless the race is obviously underpowered for a +1 LA, such as a Blue (we would have to agree on it, however - and we can use any age category), no PrCs, substitution levels, or alternate base-classes. Outside of the core 3, only feats and items allowed. Full 20th-level starting wealth.
3.) We use the following stats, situated however we see fit: 18 16 14 12 10 8.
4.) We start 100' away from each other, standing on a featureless, infinite plain. Flat, bare stone. The atmosphere is breatheable, and all of the rules are as the Material Plane (gravity, time, cosmology, etc).
5.) We have one round to prepare with buffs and such before initiative is rolled. We are not allowed to perform any action that directly affects the other, though we can do anything else within the rules. We cannot bring any temporary buffs in with us; the only ones allowed are permanent buffs, instantaneous buffs, and continuous-running buffs from items.
6.) Other than the buffs allowed in #5, the only preparations allowed are general, which means things like resting and memorization of spells. We will, however, know what day we will have to fight, which means either of us can prepare according to that knowledge.
7.) Each of our characters has known since level 1 that he is going up against another character specifically trained to take him out. All that each knows beyond this is race and class (he's planning on a raptoran fighter). We are not allowed reconnaisance beforehand, and we only get warning of the impending fight the day beforehand.
8.) No more than 1/3 of total 20th-level wealth spent on any single item.
9.) Initiative is rolled after the preparation-round.
10.) Each of us describes exactly what the other can descern of our actions, in detail, every round (using skill checks as necessary).
11.) Losing entails one of the following: death, permanent disablement, being rendered unable to fight for 1 hour or more, surrender (which includes fleeing), or transportation out of the plane or travelling 1 mile away or more away from the other character.
12.) No custom items/feats/etc. Only RAW core and splatbooks. Unless he can find some way to get an AMF RAW (including through intelligent use of the rules), he can't get it.
I'd probably expect a high initiative from him, as well as the ole shock trooper power attack pounce combo. He'll be able to fly, which is a drag, but I'm sure you can outmaneuver him, or just leave the plane.
I ammend my previous round 1 suggestion to buffing yourself with something that negates him being able to hit you, just in case. After that, get to a safe distance, or hide, or something, and use one of the aforementioned attacks.
20k gp gem with Trap the Soul. (Quickened via rod if so desired)
Done.
- Can either of you bring into the game customized magic items? For example, can he bring in a Wondrous Item of Anti-Magic? That's a contingency you need to plan for. Same thing goes with gear-enhanced initiative boosters on his side.
- Speaking of Contingency, you should have any of his beginning actions be triggerable for a really key Contingencied spell. That spell will be the first one cast in the unfortunate event that you don't go first. So it needs to be important.
- He may go the archery route over the charge-&-slaughter route. See #1 regarding custom arrows he may enter the fray with.
Contingency is always a good idea, maybe a Dim Door or some such?
Vs Arrows: Prismatic Wall/Sphere should work. That, or AC boosts/miss chance.
Round 1: cast Time Stop
- cast gate; call in a balor(really it is all over here, but you may as well humiliate him so keep tearing him apart).
- cast Mordikiens(sp?) Disjunction
- if more rounds are available from time stop, cast a quickened true strike, then an enervation. Repeat this exact step if it works and if you have more free rounds. Also move away from the fighter as best you can.
If you want to completely trash him, cast another time stop and pulverize him as often as you can, but you don't want him to say, "If it wasn't for that time stop..." Better to save it if he manages to survive and cause trouble you can always turn things around.
Round 2: Quickened Fly and a dominate person, or really any attack spell that doesn't have a fortitude save.
Round 3 and onward: Cast quickend buffs to protect you, since this is a just one fight you'll have so many spells, and avoid him while you pick him apart. In all honestly I doubt he'll make it past round 3 and you could even have him down before then without too much effort.
Next offer to re run the battle under the same conditions, but this time you'll do it against 3 of the fighters. Use roughly the same tactics. It shouldn't be too hard.
Make sure you have a windwall or two to counter arrows and missles. A couple of dimension doors too. And make them silenced if you can. Boost your concentration as well, but really this is all if things go horrible, and I mean REALLY BAD. Like you find yourself suddenly mentally retarded, kind of bad.
Count on damage shields and doing more damage to him on his attack than he does to you.
abjurer 3/master abjurer 10/initiate of the sevenfold veil 7 is the penultimate fighter killer, just because of "hit me and suck" aspects.
For sure, an optimized fighter WILL hit you. And you WILL suck afterwards. Just do it before he can do it!
And seriously watch out for nauseated/sickened/dazed conditions, he could pull out a weapon style feat. One pounce from a greatclub wielder with pierce magical concealment and protections? You were asking for it, good luck trying to make the dc 30ish fort save against virtual death. >.>
I'd expect you to _lose_ init to start with.
Problem is, not many immediate spells for casters... Okay. You'll need to _survive_ the first round.
So, buy items that give lots of HP, and get a high Con. In addition, wear a souped-up Fullplate.
On your round, start with a Still Dimension Door, max height upwards, leaving the armor behind.
then cast the (Immediate) feather fall. At this point, the fighter will have to succeed in a DC 200 spot check to see you.
Then kill him with limited wish to drop the saves + some 9th level instagib--- Or prepare an action to cast 'gate'
when he charges you - he'll charge straight into positive energy plane. - wind wall should keep arrows from hitting.
Alternatively, Force Cube, then build a not-so-easily escapable death trap.
...Although... If he has Iron Heart Surge, and a Command word AMF item...
If you want to completely trash him, cast another time stop and pulverize him as often as you can, but you don't want him to say, "If it wasn't for that time stop..." Better to save it if he manages to survive and cause trouble you can always turn things around.
ummmm...no. That's just plain out foolish. If you have a time stop prepped and you dont drop it....it might just be a waste. Time stop lets you set up so many combos that it's not even funny. For example-time stop, prismatic sphere around him, reverse gravity. Seven saves or effective death. And if he lives he still takes 20d6 damage. But that's just the simple trick.
Wizards and Fighters are not balanced at the top levels. In fact, the core classes aren't balanced at any given level at all (you could say they are all more balanced from about L6 to about L9, but that's it). It's only throughout their career that you can say they're all balanced (and even then, Druids and Clerics can dominate through more levels, and thus are considered more powerful overall).
prismatic sphere around him, reverse gravity..
Pris Sphere is centered around the caster. Even if it weren't, insanity barely stops a Fighter with only 1 target, and plane shift delays the fight instead of winning it. (those are the only effects that would be likley harmful to a Fighter).
Okay, let's change tack: I don't have access to that many splatbooks, so lets have suggestions for a 20th-level fighter using as many abuses of RAW from as many 3.5 splats as possible. No custom items, although something such as a Permanencied item of Wall of Fire or somesuch is allowed. No custom feats, no custom anything. Material from 3.5 splats only.
Also, note the post above: we can't bring non-permanent buffs with us into the battle. Permanencied, yes. Contingencied, no (unless it can legally be made permanent core RAW). This also means that neither of us can pay another to buff us up beforehand. We CAN, however, use any item or spell we have available for buffs in the inititial prep-round.
I fully expect him to have something akin to a Ring of Time Stop or Boots of Temporal Acceleration to give him some time to buff up in the first round.
So, how would YOU design a raptoran splat-fighter 20 using all of the rules I've outlined to kick my core-wizard's arse?
Round 1: Mordikain's Disjunction. Negate all his magic items in one shot.
Round 2: Time Stop
2a-d) Use the higher end Summon Monster series to have like 20 high-end CR critters betwen you and him
3+: First off, Fly and now he can't reach you since his magic items blew up. Since his touch attack is probably going to be crap, feel free to snipe with Enervation Ray of Exhaustion, and the like.
Okay, you're starting 100' away? It doesn't matter if you win init or not, he's never going to be able to close with you as a Fighter.
Potion of haste. Charge.
30+30 = 60 ft/round. 60*2 = 120ft charge.
Reached. They get a round to buff, you know.
Whoever wins initiative will win the combat, neither person will survive the opponent using time stop.
What you have to buff is your init? What he needs to buff is is his init?
You both can kill the other in 1 round.
I am not a dictionary on initiative, but his build if he wants to win will be 2-3 items he needs to kill you (ring, scroll whatever), and everything else for initiative.
Your choice is either play offense or defense. Offense out init him (you have more tools), or defense and play psychic and guess what his 3 items to kill you are.
I suggest play offense.
9th-level spells are your best friends. Your second-best friends are your 8th-level spells. And so on. How many spells can a wizard fire off in a single round? Given some of the arcane effects available at 20th-level, I'd say 20, minimum. It's easy.
And that's just core.
This assumes you're NOT using timestop or Mordenkainen's Disjunction, just to show off.
Seriously? I don't think the fighter stands a chance against an intelligently played wizard.
Also, all I need is the 1 round of preparation-time, and I'll be set up for some serious ownage. I was suing for 3 rounds to give him a bit more of a chance to survive, but he pressed to shorten it to 1 round.
It's his funeral.
Beware of the Mageslayer feat chain. especially if it is being used in conjunction with a Spiked Chain.
Another messed up thing that you could do is Wall of Stone (Dome shape) around him to trap him, then Transmute Rock to Mud (which I think works on Wall of Stone) to bury him, then Transmute Mud to Rock to encase him.
Depending on the circumstances, the Fighter may have a solid chance. Pierce Magical Protection could destroy a lot of your standard protection methods (Greater Mage Armor, Shield, Alter Self...). So don't rely on AC. But with Pierce Magical Concealment also eliminates a lot of protections (Displacement, Darkness...).
Wall of Stone to block off light sources could be a way to give another miss chance on him.
Stinking Cloud! If you can make yourself immune (or a high DC vs) to this spell you could nausiate (sp?) him thereby preventing all melee attacks while he is in the cloud + a random number of rounds afterwards. Unfortunately, this spell grants concealment out behind a certain range, but hey, that is where the untargeted spells come in.
Arcane Sight is good to determine what he's packing.
What is the manueverability of a raptorian? if it's less than perfect, that is an advantage as well.
- Yeroc
That being said... he doesn't have to. The fighter doesn't have a chance. I'm sure he'll have a Torc of Antimagic, but that won't save him. Just use Time Stop, Gate in a bunch of crap that he can't possibly beat, and get the hell out of dodge. If he has an AMF up, you can just turn invisible and move a couple hundred feet away to watch the "fun".
You can use the Prismatic Sphere + Reverse Gravity trick even though Prismatic Sphere is centered around the caster. It is immobile once created. So just fly above his head (during Time Stop, of course), cast Prismatic Sphere, then Reverse Gravity, then move away and do whatever else you wanted. When Time Stop ends, he'll be bounced back and forth into the sphere then back out, until he manages to fly away. (The Sphere blocks line of effect to the Reverse Gravity). Of course, this tactic will not work if he has an active Torc of Antimagic (which I'm almost certain he'll have).
Edit: He wants to know what's the worst his opponent can bring.
If it were me, I'd be dropping a shade (+2 LA version) TSL on your butt so as to make the contest a little more even.
I'll certainly keep you posted on what happens during the fight.
Believe me when I say that I don't need most of these offensive suggestions. I'm going to squash him, and I'm pretty much invincible so long as he doesn't have anything truly bizarre up his sleeves.
And yes, I already have contingencies for Antimagic Fields, Time-Stop abuses, Ghost-Touch weapons, and pretty much anything else in the core 3. If he uses anything based off of the spells in the PHB, he won't be able to do a danged thing unless he is set up specifically to counter what I have in mind.
The absolute best outcome he can hope for is a stalemate for a couple of rounds. Unless he's the fighter-equivalent of Pun-Pun, HE CANNOT WIN. I'm just worried about what he might pull out of splatbooks that I'm unfamiliar with.
Also, I think the fighter has access to Craft Contingent Spell that he can buy from a caster. Heck, even with the boundaries we've set, I can easily get ahold of a Contingency myself. I'll let you know how things go.
[edit] I'm breaking the core wizard 9-ways-to-Sunday. This is fun!
Edit: He wants to know what's the worst his opponent can bring.
Here is what I'd expect:
1) A Torc of Antimagic + a bunch of stuff from Tome of Battle
2) A Torc of Antimagic + Deathless Frenzy + immunity to subdual damage
3) (And in my opinion the worst) 20 of the most powerful spells he can think of as Contingencies via Craft Contingent Spell. These can be any spell, up to 9th level, and can have any trigger he wants. So basically, anything the wizard can do, the fighter could do better with this. Of course, this is so cheesy that it is almost like admitting defeat. :P
Also, unless he's using cheesed-up broken spells or epic stuff, I'll still win. :D
3) (And in my opinion the worst) 20 of the most powerful spells he can think of as Contingencies via Craft Contingent Spell. These can be any spell, up to 9th level, and can have any trigger he wants. So basically, anything the wizard can do, the fighter could do better with this. Of course, this is so cheesy that it is almost like admitting defeat.
Doesn't that kind of count as custom magic? Rule 12 prevents it.
It's not prevented if a rule specifically allows for it.
Hence Rule 12. No custom magic/items/spells. There exists no examples of contingent spells made via craft contingency, therefore they are all custom.
You should have phrased that 'It's not prevented if a rule does not specifically disallow for it' probably.
Yeah it might be retarded but so is the feat. Either way he can only have up to his HD in craft contingency spells if I recall, giving him only 2 consequential contingencies. Also means he can't use an AMF reliably with them. Also means you just have to burn some quickened spells and ready your standard to dispel/counter/move-out-the-way.
Hence Rule 12. No custom magic/items/spells. There exists no examples of contingent spells made via craft contingency, therefore they are all custom.
This is ****ing retarded. So what, they're supposed to list every spell in every book in the description of the Craft Contingent Spell feat?
[edit] There's only one Contingent spell in the PHB that could possibly mess me up, and I'm planning on Counterspelling it in any case.
Also, he could take Skill Knowledge, thereby making UMD class, and max that.
-EE
Surely, Iron Heart Surge. Most likely Mind Blank'd, True Seeing and Ghost Touching. Most likely also immune to most Necromancies... And Reflex Saves, he'll avoid with a Diamond Mind Martial Study...
If you are give one round of Buffing which cannot be interrupted _and_ the mage can cast Time Stop, winning becomes very difficult for the fighter, indeed.
I'd work with the presumption, if you get hit, you're dead. Now, Etherealness, Invisibility won't help. Shapechanging into a Big & Nasty might help, a bit. You probably have flight speed beaten, that way... So - Bows! However, it _can_ be easy to defend against...
Flight! I'd go with the Ebony Fly, which has fly speed of 100'
However, I'm starting to think, if he can't win in the first round, you'll be able to Force Cube him... But, he'll be able to Shadow Jaunt away... But, that's his three Martial Study feats... one shadowy teleport, one for Action Before Thought, and Iron Heart Surge.
Would need to remove Dimensional Shackles for Shadow TP, though.
Plus,that Refresh-all feat...
Hm. Spell turning armor/shield? Maybe... Actually, Mounted feats might also be nice.
Hm. Random Digression: Perpetual Flank + Rogues... Ouch.
So! Reverse Gravity- probably won't work... Gate + Summon + Bull Rush might, Anything you can gate will be nasty, but won't necessarily _win_ against the fighter... Hmm.
Although, Spamming Mord's for just a few rounds -will help. He only has 1 IHS, and he'll need a full round to recover it.
And seriously watch out for nauseated/sickened/dazed conditions, he could pull out a weapon style feat. One pounce from a greatclub wielder with pierce magical concealment and protections? You were asking for it, good luck trying to make the dc 30ish fort save against virtual death. >.>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought using the special attacks from the pierce magical X feats required a standard action, and was not part of a full attack action.
Also remember the opponent is a fighter20...so no frenzied berserker levels or whatever else.
Full 20 levels worth of time preparing for this combat in supplication and service to a deity, giving up his combat prowess to better serve the deity...have to assume that the deity isn't going to just sit by eating popcorn and watching!
Sad to say that this is the Fighter's best and only chance of winning
GA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought using the special attacks from the pierce magical X feats required a standard action, and was not part of a full attack action.
Also remember the opponent is a fighter20...so no frenzied berserker levels or whatever else.
They do. However, after being hit with piece magical protections you DONT want to provoke an aoo, (and its possible it would happen) or you risk being nailed with three mountains style.
But thruth to be told... only one round of preparation? I'd do pounce and try to trigger as much fort saves from three mountains style as I can; noway a single round of preparation can get mages ac to nonhittable levels.
You guys should really do 2 scenarios, one where he wins initiative, and one where you win initiative! The winner in the one losing the initiative who can stand after first round of combat. =P
(And much more effective ways of killing your opponent than, say, a Fireball.)
As far as my offenses go, let's just say that they're just a little bit unorthodox. Even for a wizard.
Marvellous Pigments.
And QUICK DRAW!
1000 cubic foot turd falling from the sky above the wizard.
Effect: Instantaneous Poopage!
:bounce:
Better idea!
Marvellous Pigments.
And QUICK DRAW!
1000 cubic foot turd falling from the sky above the wizard.
Effect: Instantaneous Poopage!
:bounce:
Holy crap. I have to use this sometime.
Maybe not holy. Crap though.
Maybe not holy. Crap though.
Well... it did fall from the sky. :P
What if he used arrows of disjunction + AMF?
Also, perhaps. If I didn't get to him first, and had all sorts of other things planned.
So, not only is he going to be a 20th level Wizard for one fight, he's going to be a better Wizard, since he has access to more resources (spells/magic items/feats/etc). On top of all that, he's going to have his d10 HD and 11 bonus feats.
Whatever trick you think your Wizard is capable of, know that the Fighter can do the SAME EXACT TRICK. However, he can also do more. You can't though.
So, y'know, I have that going for me.
Who needs AC or initiative? With one round of preparation, initiative is no longer an issue. Within that single round, I could have 20+ spells cast just using the PHB spells and a few DMG items. There are MUCH more effective ways of avoiding getting hit than to boost your stats.
Please, can you post how do you do that? Just curiosity.
He could use UMD and get a staff of antimagic field on himself or Tenser's transformation on you.
-EE
He could use UMD and get a staff of antimagic field on himself or Tenser's transformation on you.
If you mean using the spell tenser's transformation on the mage...well as far as I know, you can't do that since the spell is personal range.
Stupid question: If the Wiz20 uses Gate/Time Stop/Prismatic Wall/Resilient Sphere... what's stopping the Ftr20 from using an item that just allows him to Dimension Door right next to the Wizard?
If the mage is smart enough to disjoin all of the fighter's items in one fell swoop? That's one way that comes immediately to mind for me anyway. And using that item would likely not be a free/swift action...unless item activation was explicitly a free or swift action, the mage would almost certainly have an opportunity to react. So he might not even need to use disjunction, he could just deal with the fighter with the rest of his arsenal.
He could use UMD and get a staff of antimagic field on himself or Tenser's transformation on you.
Sadly, Tenser's transformation is Range: Personal.
A Core-only Wiz 20 vs Splatbook Ftr 20...
Honestly, if he isn't using something from here you probably have nothing to worry about.
Either way...just my 2 cp
Hm. Are the Shadow Jaunt etc. line of tricks SU or EX?
How-ever! Without items, the fighter can only win if he wins initiative.... and even then, it's iffy since there's a buff round. I mean, if we give both the combatants a simple grey robe and... oh, a greatsword, the wizard... will win if he has a round to buff. It's D&D, not Iron Heroes.
Why raptoran? Sure, they get to fly, but they have some serious problems with their racial stats in regards to upclose fighting IIRC...
and there are other critters out there that get better bonii and racial abilities...
So he must be using something raptoran-specific...if I were you, I'd check out Races of the wild, and see what these kookie critters have going for them.
After taking a look at the race, I strongly suspect a charger build out of your pal.
The key bit of text is where it talks about dive attack as a racial feature...and lists the flight speed of 40ft.
Add in boots of haste, and, if he gets initiative, he can charge up to 140ft.
Now, figure he get's access to an item that grants him psionic pounce, or a feat, or whatever...maybe takes the shock trooper feat enabling him to turn his AC into damage with power attack, instead of to hit...
He'll be able to make 4 attacks against you with the benefit from power attack without any cost...7 if he goes two weapon...
Set strength to 30 (conservative)
Throw monkey grip in there....
Lets say great sword....
+28/+23/+18/+13, 2d8+15+(assume max) 40
Hrm, minimum of 57 points per hit, forcing fort saves multiple times per the massive damage rules, if you're using them......rough for a wiz...and remember, that's no magic beyond stat enhancers included...
with a two bladed sword, again over sized,
+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11, assuming a high enough dex for all the TWF feats... each successful hit dealing 1d10+10+20...or 31 minimum...
Still, no magic added... toss on a +1 bane (easy enough to figure out what kind), shocking, fiery, frost weapon, and you're throwing another 5d6 + 3 on the fire...
For a total of either:
2d8+5d6+15+40+3 or 65 minimum (260 minimum damage if all 4 hit!)
or
1d10+10+20+5d6+3 or 39 minimum (273 minimum damage if all 7 hit!)
Considering the best for base HP you can do (assuming an 18 con) is 160, this may represent a problem.
If you don't get initiative, or you don't cast something to reduce damage, he will kill you.
Stoneskin is your friend. ;)
Of course, nearly all epic-type battles become 'who get's initiative' contests...
although with the buff round and a bit of smartness on your part, you can easily counterract this strategy...
Why raptoran? Sure, they get to fly, but they have some serious problems with their racial stats in regards to upclose fighting IIRC...
A typical response for wizards is to cast fly. He would have a natural fly speed, meaning if he uses an AMF and flies next to you...
... Presuming he's not using a Brilliant Energy weapon. Bah, scratch the armor idea... Tongues + shapechange into a construct?
Just so you know.
My kneejerk reaction is that him being a dwarf is bad, due to the worse mobility. Any counterpoints? I mean, sure he'll have better saves and some more HP, and dwarf is pound for pound very impressive as a race, but I can't think of any dwarf-specific items/feats that will especially help vs a caster right now. And if you disjoin him, what methods would he have of reaching you in an effective manner without any items? Any ToB maneuvers?
well, the +2 saves against spells and spell-likes is looking mighty nice right now
Otherwise I'm not an expert on high level combat, but to answer the question: some things he might use are:
arrows of bloodseeking or seeking as those have a higher chance to hit you.
Splitting ammunition, for effectively doubling his ranged attacks.
Magebane weapons.
Magic-eating armor <- this is nice giving SR and anything that doesn't hit buffs him, but the SR13 is probably to low
Death ward armor <- saves against death effect 1/day
Belt of spell resistance SR21
Gauntlet of utterdeath <- save or die fort DC20 on a succesful melee attack, 3/day
Muahaha...
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
If I were you, I would probably gate some tough creatures in on my buff round, hide behind them and order them to ready an action to kill anything that teleports in near me.
Since i can use anything, I would pass the UMD check automatically. I would know where you are, because I would also have trueseeing and all other variety of sensory buffs.
You could not disjoin me back, on account of my Greater Rings of Counterspelling.
Since I'm a Fighter, I can get about +10 to Initiative from feats alone without even denting my stock of feats.
Your Wizard stands no chance whatsoever in this fight.
I WISH we could be friends...
Your Wizard stands no chance whatsoever in this fight.
Is this a joke?
[...] Your Wizard stands no chance whatsoever in this fight.
Care to enlighten us?
Your Wizard stands no chance whatsoever in this fight.
Err, what?
Do you seriously think that an intelligent wizard-player would be taken out with a Disjunction? I know of AT LEAST two different spells that would still protect me, Disjoined or not, and they're not even 9th-level. And I also have a number of offensive abilities that would cut him down like a tree made from butter, even if he were AMF'd. Hell, I was seriously considering covering my familiar in glue, having it attach itself to his back, and casting AMF on it myself, just to prove that it won't work as a viable defense. It wouldn't make one whit of difference either way.
The only thing that a Disjunction would do to me would be to take down about 1/2 of my defenses. The other 1/2 are so potent that the wizard STILL would splatter him all over the arena.
Nope, I'm still not quaking in my boots.
If this goes as well as I think it's going to go, I could see about giving him another challenge: Build 3 fighters, all 20th-level, all with 20th-level wealth, and built to work in tandem to bring me down. I'll be able to revamp my wizard as I like, but I'll still only be using core. He can use whatever.
THAT is the power of the wizard.
[edit] Thus far, not a single thing mentioned in this thread scares me. I haven't even had to alter my build to take them into account. Everything I have up thus far could easily be bent to resolve those situations. I'm afraid that those that are telling me I'm screwed aren't thinking of what a core wizard can REALLY do. There's only one thing that I can think of that has even a chance of working, and it has, at best, a 10% chance.
Muahahahahahahahaha...
This is hardly a debate, just you sayinig "Nuh uh."
I've mentioned specific things that will destroy your Wizard utterly. You've mentioned nothing specific about how it wouldn't or what you would use to win.
This is hardly a debate, just you sayinig "Nuh uh."
Did you look through the rest of this thread at all? Your strategy is hardly unbeatable...
They get one round to "buff". The wizard shouldn't even be standing there after that first buff round. He should have (ab)used Time Stop to unload most of his "payload" of spells for the day, and then hid somewhere while the fighter gets pounded by it.
And it is very possible to hide from someone with True Seeing and See the Invisible. True Seeing only goes 60 feet, and neither sees through some forms of concealment, etc.
I'll let you know after I squash him. :P
[edit] Also, I've found a way to be effectively immune from Mordenkainen's Disjunction, so that's no longer a problem.
If he's smart, he will jack up his init as high as can be, CC UMD as much as possible (with a requisite +30 skill item) and pick up leadership for an artificer cohort. While he can't use the cohort in the fight obviously, he can give the cohort the whole exceptional artisan line, meaning he gets magic items at 25% the cost. i.e. 200k gold items now cost 50k for him to purchase and as such are within his price range. Really, assuming he knows his tricks, the whole thing will down to initiative. Not much a fighter can do against a prismatic sphere+gate combo (amf to get through the sphere and the gated mob will kill you, kill the gated mob and the wizard has free reign for a bit), and there isn't anything you can do when grappled in an amf (core only anyway).
Good luck beating that, fighter 20, regardless of magical items.
Oh, and no items not specifically pointed out in the rules (Craft Contingent Spell is one that allows for numerous ones not explicitly mentioned, just as a point).
I WILL say this: Initiative really isn't an issue. With an Extended, Maximized Time Stop, I'll have 10 rounds to get off spells. By casting Quickened spells throughout each round, that'll give me 20 spells to fire off.
Good luck beating that, fighter 20, regardless of magical items.
Oh, and no items not specifically pointed out in the rules (Craft Contingent Spell is one that allows for numerous ones not explicitly mentioned, just as a point).
That depends on if your time stop rounds (gotten pre-initiative I assume, since if he wins initiative youll be amf'd and grappled before you can say wow umd is hacks) can be used to affect him or not. Even if you go crazy with the time stop and gate in 10 or so titans and set off a bunch of meta'd delayed blast fireballs, you're still relatively easy to beat. A heightened holy word/dictum/whatever will handilly deal with whatever you gate in and the likelihood that your fireballs will get through all of his ring of 9 lives is very small, especially since fire immunitty and a ring of evasionis such an obvious item to get versus core only wizards (no energy sub and all the good damage spells are fire).
That depends on if your time stop rounds (gotten pre-initiative I assume, since if he wins initiative youll be amf'd and grappled before you can say wow umd is hacks) can be used to affect him or not. Even if you go crazy with the time stop and gate in 10 or so titans and set off a bunch of meta'd delayed blast fireballs, you're still relatively easy to beat. A heightened holy word/dictum/whatever will handilly deal with whatever you gate in and the likelihood that your fireballs will get through all of his ring of 9 lives is very small, especially since fire immunitty and a ring of evasionis such an obvious item to get versus core only wizards (no energy sub and all the good damage spells are fire).
Can't use holy word: fighter 20. Also, heightened doesn't do much to holy word: he needs a caster level of target HD + 5 to kill, the spell level doesn't matter. If it's the UMD to emulate caster level, he MIGHT pull off a UMD bonus of +44. And that's if UMD lets you emulate caster level.
Sense this is a one time only fight:
Time stop- 1d4+1 rounds.
Wish
Wish
Wish (assuming TS still lasts)
Wish (assuming TS still lasts)
Wish (assuming TS still lasts)
The only question that has to be asked is what can't you do? A fighter is someone who is very good at sticking pointy things in people...wizards reshape reality to their will. Even simply using Summon Monster IX to flood the fighter would work.
Worried he might close with you? Shapechange into something that eats melee characters for dinner.
Or if you want to have fun:
Time stop + Illusion spells + Quickened Illusion Spells
If he can't see you he can't kill you. Not to mention all the fun of toying with someone with a low will save.
Time Stop + Fly + Protection From Arrows + Dominate Person (However long it takes)
After buffing, the fighter _shouldn't_ be able to do anything to you... But hearing he's changed to a dwarf, I doubt he's thinking it through anyway.
RoS racial feat grants +2 init, FWIW. I doubt he's going for 'Goad' since the wizard should be mind blank'd... Although, maybe not, if he's not expecting it...
Are any of the reciprocal damage shields core? Too lazy to check...
A fighter is someone who is very good at sticking pointy things in people
Well, wizards are people, a lot of the time. Core wizard probably can't SC into anything that all-splats fighter can't beat anyway.
Illusions: True Seeing.
Iron Heart Surge.
Wishes: I presume you start at flat lv20, without free XP? No wish. Even if there's wish, it still allows a save in legal use, _and_ you go down a level.
_could_ a fighter get something that would force the wizard to attack him in Melee? that could be nasty.
...How does a CoreWiz20 extend or maximise Time Stop, anyway? In _any_ case, I'd expect the fighter to at least _start_ in AMF, just in case the Wizard tries something insta-gibby.
Also, I'm not using Craft Contingent Spell, although I'm thinking he might.
And Greater Metamagic Rods are a wizard 20's BEST FRIENDS.
And Greater Metamagic Rods are a wizard 20's BEST FRIENDS.
Indeed, Metamagic Rods of many sorts are phenomenal if used properly.
I'm pretty darned sure I could win either way, but it was his choice.
They get one round to "buff". The wizard shouldn't even be standing there after that first buff round. He should have (ab)used Time Stop to unload most of his "payload" of spells for the day, and then hid somewhere while the fighter gets pounded by it.
A Fighter can do all of those things as well. So it isn't an advantage.
A Fighter can do all of those things as well. So it isn't an advantage.
... You mean the FIGHTER has access to the spell capabilities of a LEVEL 20 WIZARD without going over the wealth cap astronomically?! Seriously, dude, HOW?!
Or some kind of enervation-based cheese?
If you allow ANY splatbook, however, the fighter could actually win by combining broken feats. (swords & sorcery, im looking at you)
Or if overkill is needed 3 Mirrors of Life trapping.
11.) Losing entails one of the following: ...or transportation out of the plane...
Does this mean that you lose as soon as if you exit the Material Plane? Because that means no Blink, no Ethereal Jaunt, no Dimension Door and no Teleport! That would be interesting, because it limits the mobility a great deal.
And one other thing:
11.) Losing entails one of the following: ...or travelling 1 mile away or more away from the other character.
Not sure how you are interpreting this, but I might use Imprisonment on myself to stay out of harms way while my lackeys fight it out. Good luck getting to me, only the caster I hired to get me out one hour after the battle wil know exactly where I am going to stand as I use this.
And now to my approach: the lackeys. One feat I would surely take (maybe the only feat I'd need) is Leadership. And make sure that my cohort had Leadership too. And make sure that his cohort had Leadership too. And etc etc. Assuming that each cohort has the maximum useful Leadership score, this gives us:
I have a few suggestions as to how I would act were I the fighter, but first:
Does this mean that you lose as soon as if you exit the Material Plane? Because that means no Blink, no Ethereal Jaunt, no Dimension Door and no Teleport! That would be interesting, because it limits the mobility a great deal.
And one other thing:
Not sure how you are interpreting this, but I might use Imprisonment on myself to stay out of harms way while my lackeys fight it out. Good luck getting to me, only the caster I hired to get me out one hour after the battle wil know exactly where I am going to stand as I use this.
And now to my approach: the lackeys. One feat I would surely take (maybe the only feat I'd need) is Leadership. And make sure that my cohort had Leadership too. And make sure that his cohort had Leadership too. And etc etc. Assuming that each cohort has the maximum useful Leadership score, this gives us:
Also, I would imagine that teleport etc. would be against the rules. I'm thinking that instantaneous transport is okay, but anything longer than that (such as Plane-Shifting elsewhere to avoid the battle) counts as fleeing.
I'll talk to the other person about it.
(which we all know already and no one in their right mind could ever argue that splatbooks make a class weaker unless you're speaking relative to other PCs)
::cough::
Cpsi
::cough::
::cough::
Cpsi
::cough::
Okay, fine, I stand corrected :P My mind forgets Cpsi because of how utterly craptastic it was.
Something tells me that this is COMPLETELY against the idea of the competition. To me it soudns like the Fighter character player wants to prove that spellcasters aren't THAT MUCH more powerful than everyone says they are. All this would do is prove that spellcasters ARE that much more powerful, and just splatbooks make everyone stronger (which we all know already and no one in their right mind could ever argue that splatbooks make a class weaker unless you're speaking relative to other PCs)
I think you are right and I must admit that in my enthousiasm to find ways for the fighter to win I ignored his reasons for wanting to win in the first place. Yes boys and girls, this is the sort of mistake that makes you built nuclear weapons :P.
What the fighter could do is use this tactic to gain a large number of co-fighters and exploit flanking, aid another, teamwork benefits (from Heroes of Battle) or similar tactics.
The fact that splatbooks make a character stronger is obvious, the trick here was to take maximum advantage of that. And I think that the advantages of access to splatbooks are maximized here because the minimum unit of 'effort' the character can expend is a feat and the gain in this case is a whole character worth of feats/abilities, a character that is bound by the rules of the contest to a far smaller degree. But indeed, it might 'violate' the spirit of the contest.
In any case, I will follow this and I am curious as to the outcome of the battle!
You can't use more than one metamagic rod on the same spell. I guess you could cast more than one Time Stop, or just hope you roll really well.
Extended Time-Stop it is, then. After all, the worst I can roll is 2d4+2, right? At minimum, 4 rounds and 8 spells, at most, 10 rounds and 20 spells. Either way is more than enough time. And I can always use it again, if necessary. I do, after all, have a rod of Quicken as well. :D
... You mean the FIGHTER has access to the spell capabilities of a LEVEL 20 WIZARD without going over the wealth cap astronomically?! Seriously, dude, HOW?!
9th level scrolls cost 7650 gp. That's pretty damn cheap.
Its hard to imagine a fighter killing a wizard if the wizard has a chance to "buff" meaning Time stop and wish. I would think that type of action would violate the spirit of the contest.
Second, if you get a full round thats probbably going to net you a few more actions than he. How many swift and immediate actions come in feat form? Few I think.
Looking at some of the ideas here I've started to think it isn't really fighter vs wizard at all its more like Wizard vs....
splatbook magic items. Reading this makes me actually thankful for the tome of battle, I could see a 20 level
9 swordsman (i.e. crusader) pulling this off just using class abilities.
a fighter and the myriad of feats printed... still not so much. . .
Still when is this grand fiasco to occur?
9th level scrolls cost 7650 gp. That's pretty damn cheap.
While that is correct I think the real counter-argument here is that a wizard can do the same for the same amount of money (less if you allow him to use Scribe scroll and his extra XP to make them himself). So if you buy enough scrolls to copy a level 20 wizards full complement of spells, the wizard can do the same, possibly even cheaper, thus allways staying one step ahead in the spellcasting department (as he should, being a caster and all :rolleyes
.I would think the "Buff" round would limit you to casting a spell with the range personal.
Its hard to imagine a fighter killing a wizard if the wizard has a chance to "buff" meaning Time stop and wish. I would think that type of action would violate the spirit of the contest.
Second, if you get a full round thats probbably going to net you a few more actions than he. How many swift and immediate actions come in feat form? Few I think.
I do not think that this violates the spirit of the contest, as the fighter player wanted a full round to buff, knowing well (I hope) what a wizard20 can do in 1 round. That ability to nova is the trademark of highlevel wizards afterall, an ability he claims to surpass if he has access to all the splatbooks.
Looking at some of the ideas here I've started to think it isn't really fighter vs wizard at all its more like Wizard vs....
splatbook magic items.
In a way this could be true. If indeed a fighter is so much underpowered then his class abilities will make less of a difference and his selection of items a bigger one. This is of course assuming there are no fighter feats to be found that mimic the power of lvl9 spells :D.
Still when is this grand fiasco to occur?
1st of november (see the bottom of the first post).
I don't think anyone really expects the fighter to win...after all, if the fighter uses a wizards tricks to win (i.e., through UMD), is he really winning?
For style points, throw up a fog cloud, morph into a creature with earthglide/burrow, then go underground and dig out a nice little cave for yourself.
You happened to have brought along a ring of sustenance, and the ability to 'port in air.
Meanwhile, he probably is bringing nothing for food.
Let him starve to death above, while you are safe and cozy in your little underground hideaway :D
While that is correct I think the real counter-argument here is that a wizard can do the same for the same amount of money (less if you allow him to use Scribe scroll and his extra XP to make them himself). So if you buy enough scrolls to copy a level 20 wizards full complement of spells, the wizard can do the same, possibly even cheaper, thus allways staying one step ahead in the spellcasting department (as he should, being a caster and all :rolleyes
Not so. The Wizard isn't going to get any more actions. Getting extra scrolls isn't very useful to him in a one-fight scenario. Having the ability to cast 20 level 9 spells will be irrelevant when he's only going to have enough actions to cast 5 or 6 before someone dies.
Not so. The Wizard isn't going to get any more actions. Getting extra scrolls isn't very useful to him in a one-fight scenario. Having the ability to cast 20 level 9 spells will be irrelevant when he's only going to have enough actions to cast 5 or 6 before someone dies.
It does pay off to have a pile of scrolls with every spell in the PHB bumped up to 9th level with metamagics... just for fun and versatility...
I was wondering if it would help the fighter to create some terrain advantage. Using some spell to flood the battlefield with water, or lava, and having the appropriate items to survive. While the wizard himself will probably have some means of survival, his summoned creatures may not. He may also have some problems with movement (Swimming speed?) The key is to come up with something unexpected and hoping the other character does not have the appropriate trick up his sleeve. What about summoning a Gargantuan Gelatinous Cube right on top of the wizard?
I see two other problems in this duel:
- Wealth: both sides have enough money to come up with practically anything in the books. A 20th level commoner with the right items and a lucky roll on intiative might win this just as likely as the fighter or wizard
- At 20th level, the ability to stick pointy things into fleshy things, a.k.a 20 fighter levels is pretty unimportant. If it wasn't for the stupid duel, the wizard would just teleport into his well-protected sanctum and kill that fighter from a safe distance.
I see two other problems in this duel:
- Wealth: both sides have enough money to come up with practically anything in the books. A 20th level commoner with the right items and a lucky roll on intiative might win this just as likely as the fighter or wizard
- At 20th level, the ability to stick pointy things into fleshy things, a.k.a 20 fighter levels is pretty unimportant. If it wasn't for the stupid duel, the wizard would just teleport into his well-protected sanctum and kill that fighter from a safe distance.
You summed up my thoughts perfectly...and emphasis mine :P
A 20th level commoner with the right items and a lucky roll on intiative might win this just as likely as the fighter or wizard
Indeed that was my point. The Fighter in this scenario will almost always win initiative since he can spend so many feats on it without hurting his other abilities.
Indeed that was my point. The Fighter in this scenario will almost always win initiative since he can spend so many feats on it without hurting his other abilities.
The fighter winning doesn't matter. All the wizard has to do is use Time Stop during their buff round.
(Which gets even better when I become pretty much immune to Disjunctions and Dispels.
)The fighter winning doesn't matter. All the wizard has to do is use Time Stop during their buff round.
Fighters can also use Time Stop. Seriously, that's the fourth time in this thread I've said that.
And one feat for initiative? You're misinformed. I can get +22 or more to Initiative from feats alone.
Fighters can also use Time Stop. Seriously, that's the fourth time in this thread I've said that.
Seriously, it is the third time someone has said that having a Fighter use magic spells to counter a Wizard's spells is defeating the purpose of the contest to begin with.
And one feat for initiative? You're misinformed. I can get +22 or more to Initiative from feats alone.
Not from the core three, you can't.
Also, I have my build finished. I just have to tweak my items a bit to make sure I have the pricing and XP expenditure down properly.
why would he take dwarf....?
Darkvision...not a factor
con...maybe.
What's con based?
A lot of stuff, but most notably, spellfire cheese.
Spellfire wielder/channeler? Possibly, but useless without PRC...and he's supposed to take fighter 20.
Mmm...maybe he's planning on dropping cloudkills/fort save generating AOEs? Fort will be your weakest save, period...
He jacks up his con to get extra HP and a higher save, so he can pretty much auto the DC of whatever he's bringing to the table?
Are there any special abilities that use con or your fort save as a basis in ToB? I don't own it...
Still, as fighter 20 he doesn't have mettle. There's plenty of crap that either doesn't have a save or still hurts if you pass.
By the way, since Orange Ioun Stones are non-typed for the Caster Level bonus, they stack, right?
By the way, since Orange Ioun Stones are non-typed for the Caster Level bonus, they stack, right?
If you get a decent answer to that one, you should publish a thesis on it.
P. 172, PHB, untyped bonuses always stack. I just couldn't find the right reference, for some reason.[/thesis]
Will-do.
P. 172, PHB, untyped bonuses always stack. I just couldn't find the right reference, for some reason.[/thesis]
Uh huh... Yeah, it's that simple.
Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Bleh. Who needs to worry about saving throws? I don't, for the bulk of my spells. SR, not especially. Disjunctions? Antimagic Field? Hah.
Exactly my point.
So, is there a feat out there that gives you a save when you're not normally allowed one?
Wonder if he's relying on somehting like spell-turning...
Not from the core three, you can't.
Of course your Wizard can't. But the Fighter can take stuff from any D&D source, you claimed. He can get more than +20 to initiative from feats.
And orange ioun stones do not stack. Reread the stacking rules.
Of course your Wizard can't. But the Fighter can take stuff from any D&D source, you claimed. He can get more than +20 to initiative from feats.
That's exactly the reason he said he's ignoring initiative. Why should you try to maximize it if you know the other will still have a lot higher one?
Uh huh... Yeah, it's that simple.
As far as I know, unnamed bonuses, synergy bonuses, racial bonuses and dodge bonuses stack. Those are just about the only ones that do stack.
As far as I know, unnamed bonuses, synergy bonuses, racial bonuses and dodge bonuses stack. Those are just about the only ones that do stack.
The same spell does not stack with itself if you cast it again, regardless of what kind of bonus it gives you. You can't cast Haste 5 times and get a +5 dodge bonus to AC.
Now, whether this also applies to effects from sources other than spells is what is not clear. I think it certainly should, but this isn't really what the rules say, if you go over them with a fine-toothed comb. The section (quoted above) that says it specifically applies to effects from sources other than spells isn't addressing that. It is simply saying bonuses of the same type don't stack.
The same spell does not stack with itself if you cast it again, regardless of what kind of bonus it gives you. You can't cast Haste 5 times and get a +5 dodge bonus to AC.
Now, whether this also applies to effects from sources other than spells is what is not clear.
You are right. From the same spells, that is not possible, since spells overlap in general. But I was thinking from other sources.
You are right. From the same spells, that is not possible, since spells overlap in general. But I was thinking from other sources.
I don't think anything should stack with itself. And while the rules don't explicitly forbid this, they kind of hint around at it.
If you do let bonuses from non-spell sources stack with themselves, then you get ridiculous things like being able to have 100 level 1 marshals follow you around and give you +100 to attacks (not sure if this is legal, but I'm sure someone can come up with an example that is, if it isn't). And epic wizards with 100 Orange Ioun Stones floating around their heads giving them +100 to their caster levels.
Usually this stuff doesn't come up too much in non-epic games, so it isn't a big deal. But in Epic games where people can actually have the resources to easily pull stuff like this off, it can get ridiculous and it really emphasizes that it shouldn't be allowed at all, IMO.
I don't think anything should stack with itself. And while the rules don't explicitly forbid this, they kind of hint around at it.
If you do let bonuses from non-spell sources stack with themselves, then you get ridiculous things like being able to have 100 level 1 marshals follow you around and give you +100 to attacks (not sure if this is legal, but I'm sure someone can come up with an example that is, if it isn't). And epic wizards with 100 Orange Ioun Stones floating around their heads giving them +100 to their caster levels.
Usually this stuff doesn't come up too much in non-epic games, so it isn't a big deal. But in Epic games where people can actually have the resources to easily pull stuff like this off, it can get ridiculous and it really emphasizes that it shouldn't be allowed at all, IMO.
Well, the 100 marshal thing is covered in the Same Source paragraph, but for the Ioun stones, you can just call them whatever you want and it becomes a different source, so I would let it
You shouldn't have ANY free round of buffing. Play it like any other encounter.
Roll inititive
I don't think anything should stack with itself. And while the rules don't explicitly forbid this, they kind of hint around at it.
If you do let bonuses from non-spell sources stack with themselves, then you get ridiculous things like being able to have 100 level 1 marshals follow you around and give you +100 to attacks (not sure if this is legal, but I'm sure someone can come up with an example that is, if it isn't). And epic wizards with 100 Orange Ioun Stones floating around their heads giving them +100 to their caster levels.
Usually this stuff doesn't come up too much in non-epic games, so it isn't a big deal. But in Epic games where people can actually have the resources to easily pull stuff like this off, it can get ridiculous and it really emphasizes that it shouldn't be allowed at all, IMO.
That is why I think it was explicitly stated somewhere that certain effects stack and I think untyped/unnamed was one of them (dodge was another). The others overlap. The orange ioun stone thing has been around a while, I believe, and I thought the general consensus was that it was legal??
You shouldn't have ANY free round of buffing. Play it like any other encounter.
Roll inititive
In any other encounter the wizard would at worst (for him) be already buffed with his full set of extended duration buffs and have a contingency running to ensure escape or a formidable defense in case he's in danger. At best he'd have used his vast array of divinations to either know what threats are coming his way and prepare for them appropriately, or he would choose his target and prepare accordingly, then warp in and do his business.
One round of buff time and the duel format favors the fighter significantly more than it does the wizard.
Of course, I personally would feel dirty winning like that, since the point is to use "Fighter 20" to win. But with the rules as stated, it is a viable means to victory.
Just a thought on the Fighter. It sure isn't using "Fighter 20" to win, but the Fighter can easily get rediculous quantities of Use Magic device, Use Psionic Device, and the proper items to duplicate Pun Pun. In the buff round using Time Manipulation spells. Even ignoring divine rank capability, with nigh infinite stats, and any class or racial ability he wants he is going to lay you out.
Of course, I personally would feel dirty winning like that, since the point is to use "Fighter 20" to win. But with the rules as stated, it is a viable means to victory.
You are aware that the wizard could basically start as "Pun Pun", even before the fighter pulled out his first scroll? ;)
Also, using arcane spells to prove a fighter could defeat a wizard in a duel is kind of self-defeating, don't you think?
2. In this case the wizard can't, since he lacks access to the Serpent Kingdoms, denying him , as far as I know, the most vital peice of the to become Pun Pun
[..] 2. In this case the wizard can't, since he lacks access to the Serpent Kingdoms, denying him , as far as I know, the most vital peice of the to become Pun Pun
Uhhh....
... :lightbulbThen the wizard cranks up his UPD through the roof, uses a powerstone of retrieve and teleports the scroll containing the munched-out-Serpent-Kingdoms-enhanced shapechange into his hands. :P
Use the buff round to get Ghost touch wep. True seeing. Blindsight (moi). A shaped amf.
I'd use umd and some boosts, shape soulmeld comes to mind, to boost my umd.
Use this to get the spell that means your never flat footed.
Start of with an immediate action to use a tob manouver (I think you can get them without being a tob class) to teleport next to the wiz.
Then use some feat that disallows casting defensively to whack the wiz around, and otherwise have reach to whack him if he moves away.
If you wanted to make it a real challenge though, first tell us what you plan to do ( I don't imagine there'd be much he could do even if he did know). Second redo the fight with lower level combatants, and find out at what point the fighter starts sucking.
I'm pretty curious to see what the warrior came up with.
Why is everybody giving advice on how to kill the fighter? The OP already said he has that covered.
Edit: He wants to know what's the worst his opponent can bring.
Ring of spell turning. Attacking him with save and death spells is suicide (unless you are 100% sure you can beat your own DC).
He can have +17 initiative, and probably will. he can charge 120' with boots of haste and hit almost anything for about 300 to 1000 damage.
Giant arrows shrunk with magic, will hit through wind wall. the fighter can shot 8 abusing many shot and a split bow. He can hit AC 45+ automatically using supremacy, feat and items. Does prismatic sphere count as a 'buff'? Otherwise you are facing 300-400 damage from that many shot. And probably more if he full attacks.
I'm pretty sure I'll pwn him, regardless of what he comes up with.
*Sigh.* I haven't seen him for the last several days. I'm keeping an eye out, though, so I'll snag him the next time I see him.
Perhaps not quite as easily as I thought, since all of his saves were through the roof, and my MKD missed his Rod of Absorption. Still, as shown by his tactics, he sorely underestimated the power of a well-built wizard.
My character is here: http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=40
My familiar is here: http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=42
My simulacrum is here: http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=43
I had Astral Projection up. I also had a Clone, and a 10th-level Simulacrum, all stored in my Bag of Holding with my original body and a Bottle of Air (just in case).
During the buff-round, I cast Time Stop with a Greater Metamagic Rod of Extending, and rolled a 4. (1d4+1)x2 for 10 rounds.
Then I Gated in two Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons, had my familiar apply Sovereign Glue to two Ring Gates (I had the matching Gates from the two sets) and stick them on the dragons' foreheads, exit-side out.
I then cast a 10' x 10' Wall of Iron to push over on the ground, got on top of it, and had my familiar put one Ring of Spell Turning on each of the dragons before joining me.
After that, it was Prismatic Sphere, Wall of Stone inside the Sphere, Stone Shape it into a dome, Limited Wish + Dimension Door to nab a Contingency effect (set to go off any time my opponent was about to hit me with something that could actually affect me, to teleport me 5' under the ground). Then I tossed the Ring Gates onto the ground (Enter-side up), and Shapechanged into a Greater Shadow - which meant I was incorporeal.
I could easily have done all of this in less than 10 rounds with my Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening, but I had 10 rounds, so I made use of them.
He was a bit perturbed when I came out of Time Stop and there were two CR 30, colossal-sized Great Wyrm Gold Dragons and a Prismatic Sphere staring at him from a little under 100' away.
What did he do? He activated his Boots of Speed, and had a magical-wing enchantment of some sort, so he had a 100' speed. He was also Large-sized, and had Arcane Sight, or somesuch on. Didn't help. He charged the Prismatic Sphere and tried to jump right through. He succeeded on all of his saves...except for the Will save at the end, which teleported him to another plane - instant lose before the match even began.
I took pity on him and allowed him to reroll. He rolled high, so he passed this time. He tried to finish his charge. Guess what? He bounced off of the Wall of Stone. He was flabberghasted; or at least, that's how he acted.
"There's...a Wall of Stone..."
"Yup."
"Inside the Prismatic Sphere..."
"Yup."
"Where inside?"
"Everywhere inside."
"What about the top?"
"There too. It's a dome."
"..."
That's not verbatim, but it's basically how it went.
Round 1:
I'd gotten initiative, so I went first. My dragons hit him with dual Implosions. Due to his Rod of Absorption, they had no effect (should've firebreath'd him). I cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, careful not to hit the Sphere or my Dragons. I took out several of his enchantments and items, but the Rod remained untouched. My familiar did nothing, but my Simulacrum cast Spectral Hand, ready to unleash some Touches of Idiocy and Rays of Exhaustion once the Rod was toast.
His turn. He attacked the ground with the rod, apparently wanting to try to dig underground to undermine me from below. It wouldn't have worked in any case, but he only broke a bit out of the ground with one attack, so he tried to hit the nearest dragon with the rest of his turn instead. He missed with all of his attacks (-10 for Power Attack). He moved 5' away from the dragon, and stopped.
Round 2:
One of my dragons spent its entire attack routine at Power Attack -10, Improved Sundering that damned Rod. It destroyed it utterly. It was the Fighter's only weapon (go figure) so he was fubar'd. I then cast Maze. Game over.
I offered to cast another spell instead, but it was pretty clear that he didn't have a chance after that.
And that was how I destroyed him utterly. He didn't even come close to touching me.
I had all sorts of combos I could've used for beating the **** out of him. Wall of Stone + Stone Shape (Dome) + Stone to Mud + Mud to Stone. Prismatic Sphere + Reverse Gravity. And so on.
Not to mention that most of my spell-slots were left unused due to having a full Rod of Absorption.
Any questions?
Though imo I would call the spells you used as "cheating". Utilizing the gate spell... even 2 gates to your full advantage....
anyway...
I believe you could find a smarter way to beat him up.
I had figured he would've put up more of a fight. Arrows of MKD, Belt of Antimagic Field (used as an Immediate Action), all sorts of Mageslayer feats, the ability to fly, phasing arrows, an item of Polymorph/Shapechange, the ability to juggle and use 5 weapons per round, Ghost-Touch weapons, Brilliant Energy swords, a special mount, summoned creatures to take down my defenses, etc. I was trying to bypass any and all attack modes I could think of. If he'd turned into/summoned a creature to burrow under me, I had the Wall of Iron. If he came in from above, I had the Wall of Stone. If he tried to take out the Wall of Stone, I had my Prismatic Sphere. If he managed to take it all down, I had incorporeality. If he managed to find something to get through that, too, I had a Contingent Dimension-Door, so I could hover 5' underground, popping my head up after my Move Action to cast a spell before ducking back down again. If he got through THAT, I still had my dragons, who would be nigh-impossible to Banish, due to the rings they held.
It doesn't look impressive at first glance, but this build is virtually impossible to beat by a lone fighter 20, unless he took all of that into account.
Cheating how? It's part of my repertoir. They're class abilities, and they're core. Granted, I used the two most powerful spells in the game outside of Wish, but they're still useable and abuseable.
Yes I cant disagree. but you said it yourself. Imo just the fact that you abused one of the two most powerfull spells in the game, proves that you were afraid of him :P
If I were you, I would try to find a simpler way to beat him up. After all you are a wizard. No need to fear a mere fighter.
I had figured he would've put up more of a fight. Arrows of MKD, Belt of Antimagic Field (used as an Immediate Action), all sorts of Mageslayer feats, the ability to fly, phasing arrows, an item of Polymorph/Shapechange, the ability to juggle and use 5 weapons per round, Ghost-Touch weapons, Brilliant Energy swords, a special mount, summoned creatures to take down my defenses, etc. I was trying to bypass any and all attack modes I could think of. If he'd turned into/summoned a creature to burrow under me, I had the Wall of Iron. If he came in from above, I had the Wall of Stone. If he tried to take out the Wall of Stone, I had my Prismatic Sphere. If he managed to take it all down, I had incorporeality. If he managed to find something to get through that, too, I had a Contingent Dimension-Door, so I could hover 5' underground, popping my head up after my Move Action to cast a spell before ducking back down again. If he got through THAT, I still had my dragons, who would be nigh-impossible to Banish, due to the rings they held.
It doesn't look impressive at first glance, but this build is virtually impossible to beat by a lone fighter 20, unless he took all of that into account.
I figured he would've been LETHAL, so I planned accordingly. That's what wizards are all about, no?
If all else failed, I could have planted a dozen or so Prismatic Spheres above him using Time Stop and the Rod of Absorption I had, and then cast Reverse Gravity. Going through both sides of a Sphere isn't any fun, especially when you can't make it stop, and there's no save until you hit the deadly parts.
...Hmm. Evasion + Mettle + Skill check as a save + Iron Heart Surge... Isn't there also something which allows you to block using... Sense motive or something?
I see also the wizard expended several thousands xp in items and spells, wouldn't that have lowered his level to 18?
Second, I had an extra 10,000xp to spare, and used 9,998xp to create the items I needed and the spells I cast.
All you proved was that this player can't build a good Fighter.
Granted, this was far easier than it might have been, but when could you NOT say that? Any time he got splattered over the pavement like a balloon filled with spaghetti and crimson paint you could simply say, 'He couldn't stand up to you! He couldn't build a good fighter!"
Honestly, can you possibly pit 2 level 20 characters together under these conditions, a fighter and a wizard, and ever expect the fighter to win except for amazingly good luck, or a fluke?
Given the 'unholy quadrilateral' of Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate, and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (amongst myriad other things, such as Metamagic Rods, Orange Ioun Stones, etc), could a *fighter* ever truly be expected to win?
Also, I was under the impression that one could see through Prismatic effects, so the fighter would have seen the wall of stone underneath it.
1.- the strategies the fighter employed (something the fighter DID NOT DO AT ALL)
2.- the best spells in the players handbook (something the fighter with all his splatbooks couldn't take advantage of)
3.- He knew how to build his wizard (something the fighter didn't.....)
he was not cheating at all, the fact here is that the person using the fighter wasn't smart enough to think ahead of time, simple as that, and that a well made wizard (CORE wizard) with a well made strategy can kick serious ass, I mean SERIOUS ass
Congrats, nice tactics of course. Even against a martial adept, I think a well built Wizard should turn the opponent into a fine pink mist.
Edit for BlaineTog: A prismatic sphere is opaque. But I got the impression the wizard was seeing and casting through the sphere, which is impossible.
Ring Gates act like the Gate spell, which means that they pass through the Astral Plane. Prismatic Spheres don't block Astral travel, so casting through a Gate or a Ring Gate is fine.
As for doing that, free action to poke my head above ground to get both Line of Sight and Line of Effect.
Granted, this was far easier than it might have been, but when could you NOT say that? Any time he got splattered over the pavement like a balloon filled with spaghetti and crimson paint you could simply say, 'He couldn't stand up to you! He couldn't build a good fighter!"
I wouldn't have said it if his strategy hadn't been so unbelievably poor to have been "charge straight in an swing a weapon.".
That's just absurd.
It seems like he didn't even do anything in his own buff round.
As for the outcome, while the wizard had a decided advantage, I still feel it comes down to player skill. You obviously know your way around a spellbook, and I wonder if the fighter player has experience playing a high level wizard. If not, he may only have had a vague idea of what your were capable of and simply adopted a strategy of getting in your face and swinging as fast as possible.
Nice trick with the ring gates, never woulda thought of that.
Heck, I've never even glanced throught the higher-level wizard spells prior to this.
It took me all of about 5 minutes to glance through the higher-level spells and come up with a basic strategy to take him out. Everything else was just fine-tuning.
I know my way around psionics much better than magic, and I prefer it that way. It's so much more difficult to break than magic, though it's easier to build a character that's consistently useful, since very few of the powers are a waste of time in many circumstances.
As someone else posted here, its all about who wins init. Didnt think you were allowed to cast spells that affected the game in the buff round (Timestop), if thats the case, then who wins init is not interesting.
For his class choice, i couldnt find it. If I had played the fighter-type, my money would go with Frenzied Beserker together with a few levels Mageslayer perhaps. Closing that 100' distance is not a problem and drinking a potion of Lions Pounce (I think its called) enables you to do full attack after charge, so bingo.
Frenzied Berserker gives you nice Power Attack ratio bonus, so doing somewhere around 150 damage in round 1 would not be very hard. Also has Deathless Frenzy, so basically only death-type attacks would kill him. That could be solved with a deathward item tho. Main problem is the timestop/gate/maze spells from the wizard incase he goes first.
Nice stuff tho =)
Gold dragons? They are LG by nature and would not attack your opponent without a good reason would they?
According to the Gate spell, they would be effectively under the caster's control, so it wouldn't matter what alignment they were.
Correct me if I am wrong but shouldn't the familiar have lost the benefits of the time stop once he moved away from the wizard to place the ring gates on the dragons heads?
He wasn't under the Prismatic Wall of Stone at this point, so there's no reason he couldn't have been within 5 ft. of his familiar.
Frenzied Berserker gives you nice Power Attack ratio bonus, so doing somewhere around 150 damage in round 1 would not be very hard. Also has Deathless Frenzy, so basically only death-type attacks would kill him. That could be solved with a deathward item tho. Main problem is the timestop/gate/maze spells from the wizard incase he goes first.
The problem would be the contingency on attempting to attack him. Charging just doesn't work in mage vs fighter.
The rules were you couldn't leave the plane. Your body, AKA you, was in a sack of holding, which is an extra-dimensional space... which counts as on a seperate plane. As soon as the match started, you lose...
Nice trick with the ring gates, never woulda thought of that.
Hahahahaha!
Very nice indeed. The smarter player won :D
The rules were you couldn't leave the plane. Your body, AKA you, was in a sack of holding, which is an extra-dimensional space... which counts as on a seperate plane. As soon as the match started, you lose...
Do extra-dimensional spaces necessarily constitute a different plane? I mean, a lot of planes even overlap (such as ethereal with material).
Do extra-dimensional spaces necessarily constitute a different plane? I mean, a lot of planes even overlap (such as ethereal with material).
Admittedly, the rules are not 100% clear on this...
But putting a bag of holding in a portable hole or vice-versa ends up sending stuff to the Astral plane, and the prerequisite spell puts stuff on the ethereal plane... so it seems likely that the space in side a bag of holding is not on this plane.
Admittedly, the rules are not 100% clear on this...
But putting a bag of holding in a portable hole or vice-versa ends up sending stuff to the Astral plane, and the prerequisite spell puts stuff on the ethereal plane... so it seems likely that the space in side a bag of holding is not on this plane.
Does that mean I get free scribed spellbooks with Secret Page because that is the requirement for Boccob's Blessed Book?
For all of you on the "but the Fighter could have..." bandwagon, how would the Fighter have gone about beating a tricked out core Wizard 20?
There's already about 120 post in this thread about that.
Edit for BlaineTog: A prismatic sphere is opaque. But I got the impression the wizard was seeing and casting through the sphere, which is impossible.
Ooo, then Stone Wall was a mistake; or, rather, making it a complete dome was a mistake, You would have done better to make it a semicircle, since then the fighter'd charge in, thinking you're in there, get smacked, and then find himself in a prismatic sphere; he'd have to stop and then go back the way he came, too, which buys you even more time.
Seems like good proof to me, or at least a start.
In any case, I placed the Wall of Stone right on the inside of the sphere, as attacks can't pass through, so he couldn't try to break the wall down without dispelling the sphere. It's easy enough to try to break an object, yes? Especially when you're protected from the two colossal-sized dragons just a few feet away.
Does that mean I get free scribed spellbooks with Secret Page because that is the requirement for Boccob's Blessed Book?
Well, you do, but not because of that.
But that's another topic.
I'd like to see this done again, but this time without the wizard spending massive amounts of XP and GP to get the job done, and preferably without MKD, because that also effectivelly costs you massive amounts of money (post battle), and no buff round.
Also, I was under the impression that one could see through Prismatic effects, so the fighter would have seen the wall of stone underneath it.
I don't see any reason to nitpick. Lyc's build was creative and made great use of the resources he had. He could've beaten the given fighter far more economically (technically, he won with the single prismatic sphere, that's pretty inexpensive), but then his build was designed to deal with any fighter. And with UMD and a bunch of esoteric books, that could've been a far more substantial challenge.
Re: bag of holding, I'd say that if he'd managed to strike your projection down, it then would've (arguably) counted as a loss, as you would've been forced to return to extradimensional space. But "you" are where your projection is, so it seems legal for the fight.
I'd just like to point out people shouldn't be ragging on him for spending half a level on spells and items because, according to the criteria that were set forth this fight is like the culmination of his entire life. He knew his entire career that he would one day face a fighter of equal experience and that that fighter would have been training his entire life to kill one mage. Therefore any expenditure is justified this was his end of game "boss" fight.
There are all sorts of tricks to pull, if you use your head.
Now, I wonder, since he keeps complaining that psionics is so overly-broken compared to magic (Ha! As if...), what he would build if we were to go head-to-head, core-mage vs. splatbook-psionist...
Now, I wonder, since he keeps complaining that psionics is so overly-broken compared to magic (Ha! As if...), what he would build if we were to go head-to-head, core-mage vs. splatbook-psionist...
now THAT would be pretty cool indeed, you should ask him to accept that challenge and them come here in a new thread and tell us about it :D
Now, I wonder, since he keeps complaining that psionics is so overly-broken compared to magic (Ha! As if...), what he would build if we were to go head-to-head, core-mage vs. splatbook-psionist...
Given his failure to come up with any reasonable strategy with a Fighter, I think we all know how that one would go.
Unless, of course, he came he and saw that Pun-Pun was a Psion.
Given the rules of engagement for this battle, and knowing NOTHING about my character other than he was a halfling wizard 20, what build would you have gone with in proving that 'the fighter class is equal to the wizard class' at level 20? That is, whether you agree with the statement or not.
Also, I believe there were at least 3 other people helping him with this build.
You might want to re-check the color effects of a Prismatic Wall/Sphere.
The violet one. By my reading, he was going to come through the sphere (if he made his save) stark naked...
And they did change it from 2nd Ed. It used to be impervious, period... I am showing my age...
DarknessEternal:
Given the rules of engagement for this battle, and knowing NOTHING about my character other than he was a halfling wizard 20, what build would you have gone with in proving that 'the fighter class is equal to the wizard class' at level 20? That is, whether you agree with the statement or not.
Also, I believe there were at least 3 other people helping him with this build.
I don't know what he would do, or anybody else for this matter, but I would be hidden, invisible, silent and undetctable against scrying and others until your buffs wear out. Repeat as needed.
Then wack the face of a puny commoner (mages without... hum... magic? Are just commoners)
But it only stops objects and effects, not creatures. And I'm fairly sure that each of his items would survive if he made the save. If he didn't, he'd be sent to another plane naked and effects-less.
I was working on the old 2nd Ed one
That one stopped everything, IIRC. My bad.I don't know what he would do, or anybody else for this matter, but I would be hidden, invisible, silent and undetctable against scrying and others until your buffs wear out. Repeat as needed.
Then wack the face of a puny commoner (mages without... hum... magic? Are just commoners)
There is still the problem of the two celestial Gold Dragons. Dragons have an unGodly Spot and Listen check...
And this is a *Fighter* we are talking about. As subtle as a sledgehammer to the face...
There is still the problem of the two celestial Gold Dragons. Dragons have an unGodly Spot and Listen check...
And this is a *Fighter* we are talking about. As subtle as a sledgehammer to the face...
It's not like they can see through invisibility or can hear through a zone of silence. But still, I would keep my distance.
Flatstone = no footprints
invisibility = no matter how many ones I take for the hide check he can't see me.
Zone of Silence = no matter how many ones I take for move silently they can't hear me
It's not like they can see through invisibility or can hear through a zone of silence. But still, I would keep my distance.
Flatstone = no footprints
invisibility = no matter how many ones I take for the hide check he can't see me.
Zone of Silence = no matter how many ones I take for move silently they can't hear me
Actually, they can see you. You just get a +20 to your Hide checks...
That is 1 thing. Second thing is that pesky little thing called Blindsense that all dragons have. Third thing is that most dragons should have See Invis or Glitterdust or some sort of Invis defying thing, because I just can't imagine a dragon getting robbed blind by a Invis'd Rogue...
Actually, they can see you. You just get a +20 to your Hide checks...
That is 1 thing. Second thing is that pesky little thing called Blindsense that all dragons have. Third thing is that most dragons should have See Invis or Glitterdust or some sort of Invis defying thing, because I just can't imagine a dragon getting robbed blind by a Invis'd Rogue...
That's why I'm keeping my distance. Increases their spot DC a little and make most detect spells useless.
I may be wrong, but I think I can be as much as 1 mile away...
That's why I'm keeping my distance. Increases their spot DC a little and make most detect spells useless.
I may be wrong, but I think I can be as much as 1 mile away...
See Invis has no range. And the match was that they started 100ft away from each other.
If you are a mile away, how are you going to come back and be assured that the Wizard is still there? The Wizard could have teleported away to anywhere and redo his spells after a 8 hour sleep. You are being specious in the extreme.
I would likely make a flying mounted-archer build with twinked-out adamantine arrows of Antimagic Field, Banishment, Silence, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and Disintegrate, and a seriously nice Composite Longbow (with phasing-ammo abilities, if I could find it). If possible, have the arrows be items that trigger whenever they hit something or broke. If I could find it, an item that allows Antimagic Field as an immediate action, as well as tons of Craft Contingent Spell contingencies (such as a dismissable Dimensional Anchor if I was targeted with a forced-teleportation spell). I'd also get one of them to Simulacrum a really powerful creature as my mount (Gold Dragon, anyone?), and Simulacrum me as well. I'd buff up my saves and SR, and find some way to legally Shapechange a couple of times. Also, a few Rods of Cancellation and Absorption (at least two each).
Then I'd go into battle swinging (with as many backup bodies as I could possibly get).
Definite cheese, but again, you can't fight magic without magic, so you might as well make magic work for you.
See Invis has no range. And the match was that they started 100ft away from each other.
If you are a mile away, how are you going to come back and be assured that the Wizard is still there? The Wizard could have teleported away to anywhere and redo his spells after a 8 hour sleep. You are being specious in the extreme.
Yup, that's why I need to keep an eye out for him (or the dragons) he can't keep the dragons around when he is sleeping and I can come when that happens. He, of course, can and will set other types of wards to protect against an intrusion.
We KNOW that there are LOTS of spells to protect against being found. But it wouldn't be so easy to not be found and at the same time know where the enemy is. If that issue is resolved the fighter gains an upper hand.
I am not a good optimizer myself. I leave the idea for others to try where I can't.
I'd probably take the Leadership feat and get numerous item-creation wizards, clerics, and artificers for followers, none of which I would take into battle, but which would be pumping out items like crazy, all at a fraction of the cost it would take me to buy them legally.
I would likely make a flying mounted-archer build with twinked-out adamantine arrows of Antimagic Field, Banishment, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and Disintegrate, and a seriously nice Composite Longbow (with phasing-ammo abilities, if I could find it). If possible, have the arrows be items that trigger whenever they hit something or broke. If I could find it, an item that allows Antimagic Field as an immediate action, as well as tons of Craft Contingent Spell contingencies (such as a dismissable Dimensional Anchor if I was targeted with a forced-teleportation spell). I'd also get one of them to Simulacrum a really powerful creature as my mount (Gold Dragon, anyone?), and Simulacrum me as well. I'd buff up my saves and SR, and find some way to legally Shapechange a couple of times. Also, a few Rods of Cancellation and Absorption (at least two each).
Then I'd go into battle swinging (with as many backup bodies as I could possibly get).
Definite cheese, but again, you can't fight magic without magic, so you might as well make magic work for you.
That's the most obvious solution, give yourself more magic than the mage(wizard) itself.
What I was (and am) proposing about the wait until his spells run out is on the premise that I am not going to abuse magic to fight magic. I will try to kill the wizard without having even more magic than him
that chanlenge would be endlesslly easier with a bard, you know?
Especially if it WASN'T a core wizard. Persistant Time Stop would allow you to cast all of your spells and then rest for 8 hours, cast a bunch of spells and then rest for 8 hours, then cast a bunch of spells and rest for 8 hours, before the Time Stop finally ran out. Then (if you chose your spells correctly), you'd be able to unleash 3 days' worth of spells on the fighter in a single round.
Plus, if you had a fully-charged Rod of Absorption full of spells, you could cast up to 50 spell-levels worth of spells, all for a measly what, 50,000gp? Less, if you crafted it, or had it crafted by an underling?
Danged hard to do, really.
Especially if it WASN'T a core wizard. Permanencied Time Stop would allow you to cast all of your spells and then rest for 8 hours, cast a bunch of spells and then rest for 8 hours, then cast a bunch of spells and rest for 8 hours, before the Time Stop finally ran out. Then (if you chose your spells correctly), you'd be able to unleash 3 days' worth of spells on the fighter in a single round.
Plus, if you had a fully-charged Rod of Absorption full of spells, you could cast up to 50 spell-levels worth of spells, all for a measly what, 50,000gp? Less, if you crafted it, or had it crafted by an underling?
Persisted Timestop is a no-no. Technically speaking, it doesn't work. Others know why better than I do.
Frankly, for a duel like this, I'd get my items as command-word variants, with, like 5 uses consumables... and have them all keyed to the same command word.
Speaking is a free action that can be done at any time outside your turn.
Yup, that's why I need to keep an eye out for him (or the dragons) he can't keep the dragons around when he is sleeping and I can come when that happens. He, of course, can and will set other types of wards to protect against an intrusion.
We KNOW that there are LOTS of spells to protect against being found. But it wouldn't be so easy to not be found and at the same time know where the enemy is. If that issue is resolved the fighter gains an upper hand.
I am not a good optimizer myself. I leave the idea for others to try where I can't.
Isn't it a lot more like that he would know when *you* are sleeping than it is for you to know when *he* is sleeping? Or do your Fighter have some sort of Spidey sense that no other Fighter in the game have? How do you keep an eye on him and yet he is not able to do the same, especially he can innately do something to see you, while you have to rely on items to do the same? How can it be, then that he is *not* hunting you, especially given that he has more resources than you will ever have in doing exactly just that? A single Wish would destroy all your protections *and* figure out where you are.
You, sir, are pulling things from out of your rear to try and prove a point that has no basis in fact.
Isn't it a lot more like that he would know when *you* are sleeping than it is for you to know when *he* is sleeping? Or do your Fighter have some sort of Spidey sense that no other Fighter in the game have? How do you keep an eye on him and yet he is not able to do the same, especially he can innately do something to see you, while you have to rely on items to do the same? How can it be, then that he is *not* hunting you, especially given that he has more resources than you will ever have in doing exactly just that? A single Wish would destroy all your protections *and* figure out where you are.
You, sir, are pulling things from out of your rear to try and prove a point that has no basis in fact.
Actually I was putting a hypothetical situation.
I said the IDEAL situation would be one where you can see your opponent and he can't see you. Not that I did it. That's why I said I was leaving the task to someone with better knowledge than me.
Please don't come throwing rocks at other people.
And it's not like fighters need any sleep if they are not making some strenuous activity.
And it's not like fighters need any sleep if they are not making some strenuous activity.
My brain boggles from the sheer amount of stupid contained within this sentence.
Fatigue rules aside...
thanks for the clarification
Actually I was putting a hypothetical situation.
I said the IDEAL situation would be one where you can see your opponent and he can't see you. Not that I did it. That's why I said I was leaving the task to someone with better knowledge than me.
Please don't come throwing rocks at other people.
And it's not like fighters need any sleep if they are not making some strenuous activity.
No. You were being deliberately obtuse and used rules that is not contained within the Core rules set to get an effect you wanted. In other words, you were pulling things out of your ass.
and here goes my assumption that this community is at least 'neutral' it's clearly 'hostile' to newcommers.
thanks for the clarification
This statement boggles the mind, coming as it were from you...
and here goes my assumption that this community is at least 'neutral' it's clearly 'hostile' to newcommers.
thanks for the clarification
It's not the community, it's just me. And it's not to newcomers, it's to idiotic newcomers.
Good job.
Only happened in 8 pages.
wow this thread has devolved rather fast..
Good job.
Only happened in 8 pages.
It happens when a stupid Fighter comes into a thread and declares he is God above all, and demands we bow down to his uber DM Rule 0 inspired powerz.
Fine, then. Come up with a build to take a wizard 20. Betcha can't.
Are you talking to me, dude? Cause it was Tormada that was doing the whole Fighter schtick...
Psionics RULES!
[edit] This post was brought to you by the Association for Anti Thread-Derailment (AATD), the letter V, and the number 5.
It happens when a stupid Fighter comes into a thread and declares he is God above all, and demands we bow down to his uber DM Rule 0 inspired powerz.
nevermind
It was for everybody! Kill the wizards!
Psionics RULES!
[edit] This post was brought to you by the Association for Anti Thread-Derailment (AATD), the letter V, and the number 5.
The Psion is what I refer to as the Monk-killer. All those "I have Improved Evasion and SR! Neener! Neener!" guys (of which the Monk is the exemplar) run up to Mr. "I have Fort based damage spells, and +8 to my spell penetration checks" Psion and absolutely crap their pants ;) I love Psionics.
The Psion is what I refer to as the Monk-killer. All those "I have Improved Evasion and SR! Neener! Neener!" guys (of which the Monk is the exemplar) run up to Mr. "I have Fort based damage spells, and +8 to my spell penetration checks" Psion and absolutely crap their pants ;) I love Psionics.
Mostly true, however I rarely see Psion builds with Greater Power Penetration. The focus-expending component of the feat really makes it less than desirable, especially when Psions have access to various SR ignoring powers (Crystal Shard and Energy Barrage come to mind). Regardless, wizards are no less effective against a monk than a Psion unless the wizard is completely unprepared. The Psion simply has the advantage of his extremely versatile power selection and spontaneousness.
Now, I wonder, since he keeps complaining that psionics is so overly-broken compared to magic (Ha! As if...), what he would build if we were to go head-to-head, core-mage vs. splatbook-psionist...
That would be a far more fair fight, assuming a smart Psion player. Similarly to a mage dual, it would come down to who wins initiative and gets off Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration first. Of course the Psion's large number of powers known, ability to adapt, and nova capability would be a deciding factor. Overall, it's a fight I'd pay to see. :D
[...] Of course the Psion's large number of powers known, ability to adapt, and nova capability would be a deciding factor. Overall, it's a fight I'd pay to see. :D
But hasn't it been proven by (iirc) DisposableHero_ that wizards can nova even better than psions?
But hasn't it been proven by (iirc) DisposableHero_ that wizards can nova even better than psions?
Also, a splatbook Psion really doesn't benefit too much, since psions get very little love. If you allowed Synchronicity CHeese...
- Simulacrums/clones/summons are something we always define before hand
when we do PVP scenarios. A simulacrum is NOT you or your familiar, so it
shouldn't even be able to come into the arena(field), it'd have to be
gated/summoned in. Not sure if this even came up in the scenario.
- Clones are treated as inanimate objects so they could be brought in
(actually physically dragged in by the person so weight/encumbrance
matters). Details like these mattered for Necromancers who were hauling
some dead bodies around :D .
- Prismatic Sphere blocking travel(astral/planar). There was long debate
thread on this a while back (didnt really see a concensus) where the argument was whether or not the sphere blocked planar access (say for teleportation effects). The Sphere's layers (violet in particular) prevents spell effects from penetrating into the sphere. Some argued that teleportation spells went around this. We play it as whenever the 7th layer is operational, no 'port effects (or gate/summons if you're inside the sphere) will work.
- Contingencies. Active contingency effects we use are detailed out and
what the triggering effect is, is listed out very specifically. The
contingency that was listed out appears a bit off, especially with the conditionals.
- Buffing Rounds really favor the wizard more than the fighter. A well designed
fighter should be able to fight from the get go. Also dont see this much in use
but when we allocate say 3 rounds for buffing, that's 3 rounds total..doesn't matter if use timestop or not, after the 3rd round of actions, thats it.
- Been a while since Ive used this but doesn't Gate have a TOTAL hd limit on creatures u can summon/control (ie can summon/control a total max HD = caster level?)
I'd really like to see how the fighter was built up. It looks like he had more than
few things lacking...(I mean no spare weapons? what kinda fighter is that ;) )
In a setup like this, a F20 should have at least the following
- Multiple UMD+mitem -> MDJ (doesnt sound like he had it)
- Multiple Contingent AMFs/MDJ (doesnt sound like he had it)
- Saving Throw Boosts (sounds like he has this, ok)
- Saving Throw Reroll (doesnt sound like he had it)
- Spell Turning (rod of absorption does something close so ok)
- Range/reach weapon (doesnt have to be primary) (doesnt sound like he had it)
- Flight (sounds like he has this, ok)
- Burrowing(or earth/stone meld) (maybe)
- See invisible/true seeing (maybe)
On the wizard's setup, I like that all the components costs are "priced" out :D
A F20 with the items to dispel all the summons would have caused problems...the more I think about it, the more I see that the F20 wasn't just geared right. The F20 doesn't have to "out cast" the W20 but his gear should help him survive what the W20 can put out.
Mostly true, however I rarely see Psion builds with Greater Power Penetration. The focus-expending component of the feat really makes it less than desirable, especially when Psions have access to various SR ignoring powers (Crystal Shard and Energy Barrage come to mind). Regardless, wizards are no less effective against a monk than a Psion unless the wizard is completely unprepared. The Psion simply has the advantage of his extremely versatile power selection and spontaneousness.
Reflex save halves, which means Improved Evasion kicks in. Energy powers with the Cold type forces a Fort save, which negates Evasion in all its forms. However, they do have SR, hence the GPP.
But hasn't it been proven by (iirc) DisposableHero_ that wizards can nova even better than psions?
No, what he proved is that a wizard with an absolutely insane amount of preparation, time, help and wealth could cause more damage from a Nova then a psion.
The true test of a Nova is to say GO. Now, with only the powers/items he has under a typical adventuring circumstance, as opposed to the unlimited time/help of DH's example, which class Nova's better?
The psion wins, hands down. First of all because he always has the 'right' techniques on hand, day and night, and second of all because he needs nowhere near as much access to really strange stuff to do it.
If you were to simply build two characters to Nova, and start with simple restrictions: Surprise Round, Go! one round to buff, go! Threatened, GO! One helper, one round, Go! etc, and you had the same gear, feats, spells, etc, EVERY TIME...the psion wins.
That's the true test of a Nova. DH's was more appropriate to a max dmg test for Mages!
===Aelryinth
In a situation like this, he should have gone for an initiative build, so, simply put, you never got your actions off. A move action to get up next to you with a Haste, free activate an AM field (which would shut off your bag of holding, and likely rupture it, and freeze your simulacarum, void your contingencies, and so forth) and then go right to grappling. If you stay out of range, turn it off and on to get out of YOUR range. At some point you both have to dance.
Any kind of shapechanging would have been seriously useless, if he had the mage slayer chain of feats. If the new form grants any kind of an AC bonus, even giving you a 12 Dex, one hit gets rid of the spell. He doesn't even have to do damage...he can make touch attacks.
Instead, he was a meathead who thought one magic item would do the job, and high saves, hp, and a magic absorbing toy would protect him.
Sigh.
===Aelryinth
Had I been in his shoes, I would've tried to outsmart him, using his own tricks against him. Still, it was a very disappointing fight.
I wonder what his build would've been had our situation been reversed.
but I still agree with lots of people here, that a extremely well build fighter can stand on toe with a wizard for at least some time, btw lycan had you convinced your fellow fighter player to give you his strategies?, I also want to see the psion vs wizard fight, that will be just great to battle two of the most powerfull classes ever, the same goes with a druid vs cleric fight, or a cleric vs wizard fight :D
Psionic Pun-Pun notwithstanding.
I don't have time to build one, however.
Show
Challenge!
1 round prep time
B: Power Attack
B: Quick Draw
B: Blind-fight
B: Improved Initiative
B: WEapon Focus(dagger)
B: Gtr. Weapon Focus(dagger)
Endurance
--Complete Arcane
B: [Con 13, Spcraft 2]Mage Slayer
B: Pierce Magical Concealment
--Lords of Madness:
B: Parrying Shield
--XPH
Wild Talent
[Wis 13, Concentration 7]Psionic Meditation
--Races of Stone:
B: Heavy ARmor Optimization
Deflective Armor[psi]
--Magic of Incarnum
Shape Soulmeld[keeneye lenses]
Open Lesser Chakra[brow]
--PHB2
Steadfast Determination
--Tome of Battle
B: Martial Study: Action before thought
23*2=46 points
23/2 spcraft= +11.5
23 concentration +13 mod = +36
0 spot +1 mod +4 insight[Keeneye Lenses] = +5 spot
14 16 18 10 12 8
Vanilla Dwarf Enlarged.
+2 -2 +2 - - -2
16 14 20 10 12 6
Magics, levels
+2 +4+16 - +1 -
18 18 36 10 13 6
Mods
4 4 13 0 1 -2
hd 10+4+8+10+3+5+8+7+4+9+4+7+8+6+4+10+4+8+5+4=128
+13*20 = 288
Enlarged![3040]: Enlarge Person, Permanency costs.
Book of Wis 1[27500]
+5 Soulfire[+4] Resist all-minor Mithral[9k] Mechanus Gear [CArc, BoED, DMG, DMG and Planar Handbook, resp.]
81000+9000+90000+1750=181750
+5 light wooden shield = 25153
+5 sizing magebane vicious MAnyfang Dagger[C.Adv, C.Arc, Serpent Kingdoms]158302
+5 vest of resistance(25000)[C.Arc]
+6 amulet of health(36000)
+5 tome of constitution(137500)
Rod of Absorption(50000)
Boots of Speed(12000)
Wings of Flying(54000)
Ring of Evasion(25000)
+4 gloves of dexterity(16000)
+2 strength ioun stone(8000)
15 potions of cure light wounds(750)
=759992
AC: 10 -1 size +16 armor +6 shield +1 dodge[haste] +2 dex
= 34
Base Saves 12 6 6
Ability saves 25 10 19
Magic, vs. Spell saves: 32 17 26
AttacK: 20 BAB, -1 size, +2 focus, +4 ability, +1 haste
= +25 [/+25/+20/+15/+10] [d6+11 *4 or *5/19-20 plus 2d6 vicious plus 2d6 magebane]
or +23 when sized to a huge dagger[-2 mis-sized, more for -powerattack]
[(d8+11)*4, *5/19-20 plus 2d6 vicious and 2d6 magebane]
1 round prep time
B: Power Attack
B: Quick Draw
B: Blind-fight
B: Improved Initiative
B: WEapon Focus(dagger)
B: Gtr. Weapon Focus(dagger)
Endurance
--Complete Arcane
B: [Con 13, Spcraft 2]Mage Slayer
B: Pierce Magical Concealment
--Lords of Madness:
B: Parrying Shield
--XPH
Wild Talent
[Wis 13, Concentration 7]Psionic Meditation
--Races of Stone:
B: Heavy ARmor Optimization
Deflective Armor[psi]
--Magic of Incarnum
Shape Soulmeld[keeneye lenses]
Open Lesser Chakra[brow]
--PHB2
Steadfast Determination
--Tome of Battle
B: Martial Study: Action before thought
23*2=46 points
23/2 spcraft= +11.5
23 concentration +13 mod = +36
0 spot +1 mod +4 insight[Keeneye Lenses] = +5 spot
14 16 18 10 12 8
Vanilla Dwarf Enlarged.
+2 -2 +2 - - -2
16 14 20 10 12 6
Magics, levels
+2 +4+16 - +1 -
18 18 36 10 13 6
Mods
4 4 13 0 1 -2
hd 10+4+8+10+3+5+8+7+4+9+4+7+8+6+4+10+4+8+5+4=128
+13*20 = 288
Enlarged![3040]: Enlarge Person, Permanency costs.
Book of Wis 1[27500]
+5 Soulfire[+4] Resist all-minor Mithral[9k] Mechanus Gear [CArc, BoED, DMG, DMG and Planar Handbook, resp.]
81000+9000+90000+1750=181750
+5 light wooden shield = 25153
+5 sizing magebane vicious MAnyfang Dagger[C.Adv, C.Arc, Serpent Kingdoms]158302
+5 vest of resistance(25000)[C.Arc]
+6 amulet of health(36000)
+5 tome of constitution(137500)
Rod of Absorption(50000)
Boots of Speed(12000)
Wings of Flying(54000)
Ring of Evasion(25000)
+4 gloves of dexterity(16000)
+2 strength ioun stone(8000)
15 potions of cure light wounds(750)
=759992
AC: 10 -1 size +16 armor +6 shield +1 dodge[haste] +2 dex
= 34
Base Saves 12 6 6
Ability saves 25 10 19
Magic, vs. Spell saves: 32 17 26
AttacK: 20 BAB, -1 size, +2 focus, +4 ability, +1 haste
= +25 [/+25/+20/+15/+10] [d6+11 *4 or *5/19-20 plus 2d6 vicious plus 2d6 magebane]
or +23 when sized to a huge dagger[-2 mis-sized, more for -powerattack]
[(d8+11)*4, *5/19-20 plus 2d6 vicious and 2d6 magebane]
We spent 5 pages in the thread getting all hyped up about seeing it...then spend the next X pages going !@#!
what the hell.......just that I can say, what the hell? are you sure your fellow fighter player knows the ways of the wizard? he spend so much money for so much crappy items....and what the hell with all those feats?, weapon focus dagger??, his weapon is like an epic toothpick, you just did him a favor by pummeling so much :s
Indeed, all he needed was:
Helm of teleportation to get some distance.
80 candles of invocation.
Gate efreets for wises, gate solars for bodiguarding (level 20 clerics each, they are good) gate fiendish dragons and beholders to annhilate the celestial dragons and the prismatic sphere... and anything else. No matter how good the wizard, he can't match 80 gates and hundreds of wishes.
No, this has nothing to do with the fighter abilities. Heck, this is core. But it has all to do with winning the duel at any cost. Which is why duels are usually pretty dumb.
Yes, summon Efreets for wishes... that's quite possibly the most self-destructive idea I've heard in quite a while...
Why? You completely control them for 17 rounds. And you really, really want to win the duel, right?
Of course I may be totally insane in my interpretation of the Efreeti.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be wishing through an evil creature who likes f***ing things up for you. You control him but the way the wish works... well... wish is a tricky spell to get to work when you yourself are casting it. When something else which doesn't much like you is casting it... *shudder*
Okay. Just solars. They can use wish once a day and they are far tougher than the efreets anyway.
It's done. I killed him, and easily.
Then I Gated in two Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons, had my familiar apply Sovereign Glue to two Ring Gates (I had the matching Gates from the two sets) and stick them on the dragons' foreheads, exit-side out.
He was a bit perturbed when I came out of Time Stop and there were two CR 30, colossal-sized Great Wyrm Gold Dragons and a Prismatic Sphere staring at him from a little under 100' away.
Any questions?
I have some questions. Per the Gate Spell in SRD:
"In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time."
A CR 30 Half-Celestial Gold Dragon has a HD of 42+, over twice your level 20. How did you make it work for you?
Per the Time-Stop spell in SRD:
"you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen"
How are you able to call two dragons during this spell? Seems like you couldn't feasibly call them until the following round as they would essentially be frozen, and certainly unable to hear your call in your extremely hastened condition. Also, how did you get your familiar to move around during the time-stop while you were casting other spells? Was he not frozen as well?
Why was there a free buff round? Seems stupid from a fighter's perspective.
PS: You would have won anyway
A CR 30 Half-Celestial Gold Dragon has a HD of 42+, over twice your level 20. How did you make it work for you?
Orange Ioun Stone: Caster Level +1.
Caster Level 21 x 2 = 42.
That's the only reason I got that stone, you know.
How are you able to call two dragons during this spell? Seems like you couldn't feasibly call them until the following round as they would essentially be frozen, and certainly unable to hear your call in your extremely hastened condition. Also, how did you get your familiar to move around during the time-stop while you were casting other spells? Was he not frozen as well?
The description of Time Stop also says that you can summon in allies (which, according to the DM involved, meant I could use Gate). Also, the HD limit is per casting of the spell, not total.
As for my familiar, so long as he stays within 5' of me, I can share Time Stop with him and he stays in my timestream.
Why was there a free buff round? Seems stupid from a fighter's perspective.
I wanted 3 buff rounds so he would have a chance to do his thing. I was going to wait until the last round before doing anything, but he decided he wanted to pare it down to 1 round. The reason we got a buff round at all is because either character would likely have some sort of buff to put up prior, and since neither of us was allowed to go in buffed, one round seemed fair.
You would have won anyway
With that build, definitely.
Orange Ioun Stone: Caster Level +1.
Caster Level 21 x 2 = 42.
That's the only reason I got that stone, you know.
The description of Time Stop also says that you can summon in allies (which, according to the DM involved, meant I could use Gate). Also, the HD limit is per casting of the spell, not total.
As for my familiar, so long as he stays within 5' of me, I can share Time Stop with him and he stays in my timestream.
I suppose that is DM call. Still, controlling 2 42+ HD creatures? Sure, two different gates, but control is typically a function of the wizard level, not the gate. DM call again, I guess. Not that it would have mattered. Smart move with the stone base playing field, reduces your vulnerability from underneath. I don't think you had to use stone shape to make the dome; as long as it's small, you have some leeway in shape. Would have been funnier if you had one built around the fighter. I don't know how effective that would have been, but it would have been funny none-the-less, and at least added some drama to this burying. Hell, any character except another wizard-type would've been in trouble in this scenario.
15 * 8+5 (max) = 195 not enought to replenish his life, and it would take him FOREVER to drink then all...
potions of heal would be far cheaper and better...
Not to mention the daggers...
I would completelly understand speciallising in light maces, since rods are light maces, but dagger?
And was he carrying it anyway?
You need a rematch with a fighter whose idea of tactics goes beyond simply running into someone's face and stabbing them until they stop moving.
You have good points, Aelryinth, but I still would've won, as he could never have gotten to me after I turtled up. And even if he had, shapechanging into an incorporeal form and using the ground for cover would have done him in, as he would've had difficulty knowing where I was, let alone actually gotten to me to hit. Perhaps a Ring of X-Ray vision and a Ghost-Touch weapon would've done it, but he didn't think that far.
Had I been in his shoes, I would've tried to outsmart him, using his own tricks against him. Still, it was a very disappointing fight.
I wonder what his build would've been had our situation been reversed.
If he wins initiative, you never get to turtle.
With an AM field, he doesn't have anything to worry about from you if he initiates the grapple.
as for you being incorporeal..so what? you can't see him, either. He shuts off his AM field, goes ethereal or ghostform, and he can ignore all the creatures you are frantically summoning, too.
As I said, he had no tactics. His big thing should have been getting initiative. Your turtling tactics would have been self-destructive...not that any high level fighter couldn't power attack his way thru a wall of stone in one round, since an AM field gets rid of all but the last wall...which won't stop him from hitting the wall. One adamantine weapon, and he should chew thru the wall in one round...while under AM.
Eh...he was an idiot, is all I have to say. he didn't even MAKE it a fight. I'm not sure he could win unless he won initiative and tied you up with AM...but he could have done a lot better then he did. Wizards Nova a lot better then fighters do...
===Aelryinth
Second of all, an Antimagic Field would *not* go through a Prismatic Wall/Sphere, nor would it dispel it (even temporarily), and attacks of any kind don't either. Re-read the spell descriptions. PW/S blocks AMF and anything else but standard forms of movement by creatures.
First of all, with a buff-round, he had no chance to get to me before I turtled-up. If he'd won initiative on the buff-round, AMF'd, and then stood 5' away from me, I could've simply used a move-action to get away from him before I buffed. By the rules of engagement, he couldn't do anything offensive to me during the buff-round, so grappling is out.
Second of all, an Antimagic Field would *not* go through a Prismatic Wall/Sphere, nor would it dispel it (even temporarily), and attacks of any kind don't either. Re-read the spell descriptions. PW/S blocks AMF and anything else but standard forms of movement by creatures.
That's right, he'd either have to use a rod of cancellation or teleport in (opponent couldn't do either), or come in through the ground which just happened to be made of stone (otherwise an earth elemental would have been handy), and which also allowed for the domed wall of stone. I would say the buff-round worked in your favor as well. He never had a chance.
I was thinking about using Wall of Stone + Stone Shape + Rock-to-Mud + Mud-to-Rock to encase him.
If in the buff-round, such action could be interpreted as offensive. If during time-stop, rock to mud and back to rock wouldn't do anything as the duration is too short, but stone shape would really be all you need to encase I would think.
Or in this case, running into a Prismatic Sphere until he gets shunted off into a random plane.
Or at the very least enters naked with all his possessions destroyed.
Earth elementals etc. were the reason for my Wall of Iron. It would take long enough to attack and destroy *that* that I could easily get out long beforehand.
I didn't catch that, formed on top of Wall of Iron. How does that work? Wall of Stone must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.
As for my familiar, so long as he stays within 5' of me, I can share Time Stop with him and he stays in my timestream.
That's one heck of a reach for both dragons' foreheads. As I recall, gold dragons are pretty darn tall unless they are sleeping.
Or at the very least enters naked with all his possessions destroyed.
Unattended items get destroyed automatically. Items in possession of creatures, make item saves on a failed ST roll of 1. Items also have their own saves to resist effects that might damage them (1/2 caster level +2 if i remember right). Even if all else fails, a magic item , at that DC, would have a 5-15% chance of making it's save.
That fighter, as it was, really had no way to go around the Prismatic sphere (let alone other existing magic effects) other than waiting durations out. A triggerable, contingent MDJ would have dispelled the sphere, the summons and the probably the items(ring gate) depending on the positioning of the dragons. An AMF would have prevented the dragons from using their SP/SU abilities. But alas, our poor fighter really had neither...
Gate) Been really a long time since I used Gates, but if I remember right, they're treated as summons right? Then the AMF would also have a chance (pending a successul SR penetration roll) of winking them out.
There really was no way for him to take down those two dragons. Sky-high stats, SR, saves, AC, and HP, coupled with a Ring of Spell-Turning each (so no Banishments).
With my turtling and a single Gate spell, he was likely gone from the start.
But he was woefully prepared to do even that.
Enigmous, you realize the last post on this was 5 months ago, right?See also: Permanent Symbols, Exploding Runes, Eternal wands, Golem...
Tower Shield of All Symbols! You'll have total cover vs. Burst, while anyone looking at it needs to make a save against weakness, stunning, sleep, persuasion, pain, insanity, fear and death.
See also: Craft Contingent Spell.
Not in core-only, you can't.
Sorry.
By the way, please don't resurrect that thread; let it DIE. Post here if you want.
And finally, a few more questions ;):
1. Would the rules for character creation allow for 3.5 material found on the web sites?
2. Why no alternate class features or substitution levels?
3. Also, why no Level Adjustment races and LA Buy-Off? These seem to benefit warriors much more than casters, as the 1 round of buffing time benefits your caster an order of magnitude more than the warrior.
I think a nice portion of the non-core aspect of this fighter is being disallowed (not that many others have risen to the challenge ;)).
I may try my hand at this.
No promises though.
And yes, I will refrain from metagaming. That said, I have discussed solutions for fighters in regards to high level problems such as dragons, prismatic spheres, walls of force, and will saves in many threads, so I'd rather not that any preparations I have be automatically considered metagaming.
Assuming I attempt this of course ;).
As far as commanding the dragons, they had Ring Gates stuck to their foreheads. If spells and objects can move through them, sound should too.
And finally, a few more questions ;):
1. Would the rules for character creation allow for 3.5 material found on the web sites?
The rules as they were put forth for the previous duel specifically said 'published books only'. So that would be a 'no'.
2. Why no alternate class features or substitution levels?
Because those aren't actually fighter levels. Since his argument was 'core fighters are just as good as core wizards,' I took him up on that, but restrained him to the actual, original fighter class. He could, however, do pretty much anything he wanted with feats, and so on. (Also see the next point.)
3. Also, why no Level Adjustment races and LA Buy-Off? These seem to benefit warriors much more than casters, as the 1 round of buffing time benefits your caster an order of magnitude more than the warrior.
This was agreed upon early on, since he wanted to show 'the power of the fighter class,' and the farther you get from 'vanilla fighter' the harder it would be for him to make his case.
I think a nice portion of the non-core aspect of this fighter is being disallowed (not that many others have risen to the challenge ;)).
Bully for you?
I may try my hand at this.
No promises though.
And yes, I will refrain from metagaming. That said, I have discussed solutions for fighters in regards to high level problems such as dragons, prismatic spheres, walls of force, and will saves in many threads, so I'd rather not that any preparations I have be automatically considered metagaming.
Assuming I attempt this of course ;).
Nah. I've seen your rules-arguments in other threads, and I don't think that your 'RAW' quite matches up with the actual, y'know, rules.
Especially with your definition of 'metagaming'.
Of course a wizard is more powerful than a fighter......at the start of the day with full spells. The allure of a fighter is that they can keep fighting consistently throughout the day. Spellcasters get considerably weaker after each battle. A smart (non-good) fighter would have sent a bunch of cohorts in to force the wizard to expend spells and reveal strategy before he himself engaged. I'm not saying that the fight was a poor example or that either participamt did anything wrong, just that it's dumb to even QUESTION whether a wizard is stronger than a fighter WITH FULL SPELLS
Umm... Wrong. By the end of the day, the Fighter is enfeebled, paralysed, cursed, confused, or, at the very least, low on hp. Taking the best scenario, that of the Fighter being low on hp, well, the Wizard needs 8 hours to regain his full spell complement. How many days does the Fighter need to regain his full hps?
Umm... Wrong. By the end of the day, the Fighter is enfeebled, paralysed, cursed, confused, or, at the very least, low on hp. Taking the best scenario, that of the Fighter being low on hp, well, the Wizard needs 8 hours to regain his full spell complement. How many days does the Fighter need to regain his full hps?
Healing belts are pretty cheap. 27 hp/day/ 750 gp. Roughly 25 gp per hp per day.
Healing belts are pretty cheap. 27 hp/day/ 750 gp. Roughly 25 gp per hp per day.
Yes, and the average hp for a Fighter?
Of course a wizard is more powerful than a fighter......at the start of the day with full spells. The allure of a fighter is that they can keep fighting consistently throughout the day. Spellcasters get considerably weaker after each battle. A smart (non-good) fighter would have sent a bunch of cohorts in to force the wizard to expend spells and reveal strategy before he himself engaged. I'm not saying that the fight was a poor example or that either participamt did anything wrong, just that it's dumb to even QUESTION whether a wizard is stronger than a fighter WITH FULL SPELLS
Also note that the build I made for this thread (and used in the psionics thread above) only used spells of 6th-level and up. He can chew through 4 encounters (of his CR on up to high epic levels - at 20th level, no less) and still not use his 5th-level-and-below spell slots. Given what you can do with some of those low-level spells, he's definitely not hurting for resources.
Check my sig for the damage you can do with 5th level slots, for instance (and that's not including the horrors you can instigate with things like enervation, etc).
Yes, and the average hp for a Fighter?
300 or so is typical. Costs roughly 32k to recover full hp 4 times per day. This is without resorting to charged items. HP is easy. Status effects not so much.
300 or so is typical. Costs roughly 32k to recover full hp 4 times per day. This is without resorting to charged items. HP is easy. Status effects not so much.
Ah! More than 1 belt. I withdraw my objection, although that 32k could have been put to better use
Ah! More than 1 belt. I withdraw my objection, although that 32k could have been put to better use
Agreed. Just pointing out that OoC healing is pretty cheap post MIC.
There's a 50% chance of the wall falling to the left, and an equal chance of it falling to the right. That means that it WILL fall; the Strength check is to push it the direction you want. Even if you read it the other way, that check is easy with shapechange.
As far as commanding the dragons, they had Ring Gates stuck to their foreheads. If spells and objects can move through them, sound should too.
Actually, reading the SRD, it looks like you pretty much would have to force something through the Ring Gate for it to pass through. you can force a spell, or a limb...you can't force sound. Likewise, I doubt if you stuck the ring underwater you'd get an instant deluge, and I doubt there's a constant windflow going through it from temperature differentials.
Ergo, something of substance backed by will to go through.
===Aelryinth
Umm... Wrong. By the end of the day, the Fighter is enfeebled, paralysed, cursed, confused, or, at the very least, low on hp. Taking the best scenario, that of the Fighter being low on hp, well, the Wizard needs 8 hours to regain his full spell complement. How many days does the Fighter need to regain his full hps?
At high levels, the fighter probably has access to restoration, wears Free Action, Has a mind blank/prot evil effect up all the time, and can pay off a caster to get a curse removed for nothing. If he has to he can work most of these effects into an intelligent magical dagger, or something.
As for healing...plenty of ways to heal out of combat. there's whole threads on how cheap it is.
===Aelryinth
Actually, reading the SRD, it looks like you pretty much would have to force something through the Ring Gate for it to pass through. you can force a spell, or a limb...you can't force sound. Likewise, I doubt if you stuck the ring underwater you'd get an instant deluge, and I doubt there's a constant windflow going through it from temperature differentials.
Ergo, something of substance backed by will to go through.
===Aelryinth
It certainly doesn't block Line of Effect. The bead from a delayed blast fireball can pass through easily without exploding. Wouldn't a forceful tone of voice do so as well? Really, there's nothing RAW about it either way, but mine seems to be a perfectly legitimate interpretation.
How 'bout that other thread(s) ?
- He'll make all the saves
- At level 34, he'll have an IL of 17....
- His strikes may one-shot destroy, well, lots of things. With a bit of trickery, so-and-so many 5ft cubes of granite, too.
At a sufficient level, sitting in an AMF will actually be an advantage, too.
For the turtling up trick, he casually strolls on top of the granite dome ( rerolling a save if needed ), and Lightning Throws his weapon downward.
I'm not sure how to easily get through the incorporeality, but there's probably a way... (possessing a ghost touch weapon being the first one that comes to mind. )
( Why incorporeal and not ethereal, though? )
I doubt you'll even need 9,001 levels of fighter, either. Still, it's down-right silly it's not a sure thing. Sure, epic skills allow several near-supernatural tricks, but...
At the moment, the links to your build, the familiar, and the simulacrum. For posterity, and for my curiosity, would you be willing to post them within this thread.
Many thanks -- ShriekingDrake
The things I mentioned there were most of it, really.
It certainly doesn't block Line of Effect. The bead from a delayed blast fireball can pass through easily without exploding. Wouldn't a forceful tone of voice do so as well? Really, there's nothing RAW about it either way, but mine seems to be a perfectly legitimate interpretation.
There's no such thing as a 'forceful tone of voice.' It's just sound. A Fireball is projected through the gate...it has propulsion.
Really, one arrow/throwing item with a bulb head of dust of negation on it, and the caster is the center of his own, no going away Anti-Magic shell. That would put a big crimp in his style. It'd be a touch attack to hit, too.
The biggest problem here is the wizard can attack in many ways, but really only has to defend against a couple. The problem for the wizard is, the fighter knows this, and if he can reliably get around the wizard's defenses, the wizard is just hosed. Without magic, he's a level 20 commoner. Without magic, a level 20 Fighter is still a level 20 Fighter. And a wizard isn't going to prepare specifically to deal with a prepared wizard-killing Melee when there's tons of other things out there trying to kill him as well.
==Aelryinth
shrugs. casts contingency
which does almost nothing. The restrictions on Contingency are so broad it becomes almost useless for general usage. It's only good for very specific circumstances, most of which involve key words to cast a hanging spell. The 'reaction' effects are generally too little, too late to be much good.
Elminster's Evasion works a bit better, but then, it's not Core.
==Aelryinth
That's a free action, by the way. Can't be taken flat footed, but that's what Foresight is for, isn't it?
And a wizard isn't going to prepare specifically to deal with a prepared wizard-killing Melee when there's tons of other things out there trying to kill him as well.
Actually, in this situation I think it was assumed that they both knew the other was coming. It was a "duel" after all. They didn't know the specific details of each other's capabilities, but the wizard knew that some "anti-mage fighter" was coming to kill him, and the fighter knew he was going after a powerful mage, at the very least.
Also, with Contact Other Plane, there is little excuse for the wizard to not know what kind of threats he'll face on a daily basis, and be prepared specifically to deal with them.
Also, with Contact Other Plane, there is little excuse for the wizard to not know what kind of threats he'll face on a daily basis, and be prepared specifically to deal with them.
Divination? Who uses divination?
Show
Pre-recorded response prepared days in advance via divination
Pre-recorded response prepared days in advance via divination
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
pure gold!
This post has been so insightful!
polymorph
ring of mind blank,
magical flying.
the mage slayer line.
flying
burrowing speed.
invisible
get hide up enough,
collar of umbral metamorphosis
hide in plain sight.
fighter ... know[s] mord's disjunction is coming out,
contingent
antimagic field
crafted
cast mord's disjunction
spell resistance.
That's quite a list.
Lets say a Wizard made most of those things for you.
You can do the mage slayer line and the hide stuff, off of this board rather easily.
The Wizard that made all those things for you,
could still do what the various combats on these threads do,
and yet have a couple of 9th level spell slots left over.
Smile! Jesus loves you!
And merry Christmas!