In short, I was wondering if there are any crossbow builds out there that can match up to the archer without using spells?
The idea is to use a 28 point build, no level adjusted races, and no online sources(basically, no crystalkeep). I'm limited to Core, Complete, UA, and XPH
Any ideas out there?
Please and Thanks!
So you can ignore Str in your Pointbuy while a Bow using Archer could need it. More Stats for other scores and so maybe better in Skills or HP.
Bow archer takes Str.
Crossbow takes Con.
So in a battle between them there is 1 Dmg agains 1 HP.
But like runestar said otherwise there wont be a great difference.
Only that Crossbow is useable by more people.
...forget it. There is a reason, why you finds tons of nice archer builds around here and no (not that i know of...) crossbow using guy.
Can't a Light Crossbow be a 1 handed weapon? If so, you can have a lot more attacks than a normal archer. While supremely feat intensive, doing archery and two weapon fighting can prove to throw a lot of bolts at an opponent.
If you want a 1handed Crossbow you have to go for the hand crossbow (which is ,like the repeating crossbows, an exotic weapon and costs you therefore another feat...)
My advise: Crossbows suck! (sadly... because they are quite a stylish weapon...)
If you want a 1handed Crossbow you have to go for the hand crossbow (which is ,like the repeating crossbows, an exotic weapon and costs you therefore another feat...)
Untrue:
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
You can do the same thing with a repeating crossbow.
You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
So what you need is a magical (or mechanically "souped up") repeating crossbow that automatically loads the next bolt every time you fire. Then take all the Two Weapon Fighting feats, and you can crank out a large number of ranged attacks per round... until you run out of ammo. Gloves of Storing could help a bit with that.
A character with more than 2 arms could use Multiweapon Fighting and fire even more crossbows per round.
SA variant fighter20
dual wielding repeating crossbows is pretty awesome within 30ft for 70D6 SA/round
UA? thats good....
SA variant fighter20
dual wielding repeating crossbows is pretty awesome within 30ft for 70D6 SA/round
No better, damage wise, than if he took TWF. Worse, probably.
Here would be an example build, just using Fighter 20. If you count the ring of blinking as not being a spell, then I would throw a lot more Rogue in there. I would use Halfling Fighter 12/ Rogue 8 Instead. I'm not sure of good PrC for this build.
Human Fighter 20
Str 10
Dex 27 (+8) (16 + 5 Level, +6 Item)
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
My mind is shot right now, but it may be in this order, you may need to shuffle the feats around because of my absent mindedness.
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (F1), Rapid Shot (H1), Two Weapon Fighting (F2), Rapid Reload (3), Improved Rapid Shot (F4), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (6), Monkey Grip (F6), Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (F8), Improved Critical: Light Crossbow (9), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (F12), Ranged Disarm (12), Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow (F14), Weapon Specialization: Light Crossbow (15), Greater Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow (F16), Greater Weapon Specialization: Light Crossbow (18), Ranged Sunder (F18), Improved Precise Shot (F20)
2 +5 Icy Burst Wounding Large Automatic Light Crossbow (2d6/ 17-20)
With an Improved Rapid Shot, will look something like
+29/ +29/ +29/ +29/ +24/ +24/ +19/ +19/ +14/ +14 (2d6 + 1d6 Cold +1 Con +4 Weapon Spec/ 17-20)
In the Fight, I would use the first couple of attacks to disarm your opponent and then use adamantite bolts to destroy his bow.
Again, add a potion of Haste, Ring of Blinking, and Rogue Levels and it changes things a lot.
No better, damage wise, than if he took TWF. Worse, probably.
yes, thats true. But its better then using a bow 2 handed which is the issue ;)
Hmmmm, also the 1 handed crossbow has the advantage of being able to hold it in 1 hand with a melee weapon in the other.
i imagine something like human rogue3/swasbuckler5/fighter2/chameleon10 or bard10/chameleon10 (chaos music and words of creation) could do that well. Combat aptitude helps melee damage and ranged damage so you should abuse that :D Also it plays to the "i can do anything" ways of the chameleon RP wise.
If you have the rapid reload feat, they are more or less the same.
Pretty much the numbers are against you, period.
1. A bow archer will do 2-4 points more damage per shot, due to the str mod. It's like getting greater weapon spec for free.
2. A bow archer saves a feat, unless you're building an archer without martial weapon proficiencies. Then it's the same.
If an archer has more feats, and does more damage per shot, he's a superior archer, period, regardless of the build. You can't make up for it with equipment, because both archers will spend as much as they can afford on their bow anyway, and any PRC/class/feat choice the crossbowman might take could also be taken by the bow archer.
The only significant advantage an crossbowman has is that he needs less attribute points spent into strength. Those points could be spent elsewhere to possibly allow some class/prc option not available to the bow archer that somehow mitigates these weaknesses. PRC's though, cost even more feats. Cleric-archers all are either elf or take some war domain with bow anyway, so they can get divine power as a domain spell and weapon focus for free (far as I know, gods disdain crossbows heh, have never seen a crossbow as favored deity weapon). Rangers and arcane archers tend to fit in their wis/int without needing a str sacrifice.
So the most likely point is that a crossbow archer could be made more durable (higher con, saves, maybe higher AC). In a ranged duel, the crossbow archer could be prone too, which is a free +4 to AC.
It doesn't seem like enough to me to begin to counter being behind in damage/shot and a whole feat, but maybe someone here can prove me wrong.
The longest-ranged crossbow I know of is 120 feet. A Composite Greatbow has a range of 130 feet.
Feat required: Exotic Weapon proficiency
Light Crossbow: 1d8/19-20x2, range 80ft
Feat required: Rapid Reload
All feats are the same for both weapons. You just can't dish out more damage with an inferior weapon if all the modifiers you could apply are the same. The crossbow's advantage is that it's easier to use than a longbow (or greatbow), and more characters get proficiency with it than with the longbow versions.
There's one other factor:
The longest-ranged crossbow I know of is 120 feet. A Composite Greatbow has a range of 130 feet.
I consider range to be a meaningless statistic. In a lot of games, you only really need to be able to shoot across a hex map which is quite easy to do.
With some LvLs in Rogue there should be no problem.
Even if the Bow-Archer takes the same lvls and ranks in spot/listen, you will win more often because DEX compared to WIS will be much higher.
So range wont make the big difference in a 1vs1.
Also you will have more CON than he does. He makes more DMG you have more hits.
Hits are fix while dmg is rolled. Compared the DMG Binus from STR the Bow does isnt important after all.
I like crossbows a lot in a military campaign...for the mooks, not for the PC's. Being prone is cheaper than any equipment that would kick them up +4 armor class, and on the guys without elite array, they can't benefit much from a strength bow anyway. They can be quite terrifying in the hands of massed kobolds or goblins...small races with great hide modifiers who can get prone+cover pretty easily and whose low str stops being a problem.
Give them a bard, maybe a priest for some Prayer action, maybe even GMW on 50 arrows and pass a couple to each guy and you've got some real nastiness going on.
But a PC archer can just get more bang out of his limited actions with a bow. Crossbows are flat out inferior. Even with TWF and a repeating crossbow in each hand, that off-hand bolt isn't going to do a lot more than the +4 damage you're missing with each primary weapon shot...even if you ignore the horrible things it does to your attack mod. Plus even the repeaters run out after 5 shots, and rapid reload puts you right back at one bow (4 armed people can use two bows, no improvement there either).
For a sniper build, I have a hard time seeing how you do much in the way of single shot damage without multishot. Maybe some kind of OOTBI/rogue build would work, but a rogue could use a dart and do massive damage, and all of those force you within 30' of the enemy.
The best long range sniper is a mostly pure rogue, with an arcane level to get that CV swift action spell that lets you sneak at any range. Such a character wouldn't find much to choose from between bow and crossbow, since the weapon isn't the source of most of his damage, and if reload time is an issue, he can just pre-load a bunch of heavy crossbows. Snipers traditionally don't need big magazines.
In the rare campaign where range matters, the best "one feat" way to get a lot of range is far shot and a vanilla longbow, giving you 165' of range mod. Which beats all crossbows and exotic bows.
A sniper with the Far Shot feat and a Heavy Crossbow will beat the pants off any core bowman in terms of range. Add on the Distance special property and it gets obscene real quick.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, and at least a +16 BAB means you can get 8 attacks per round with your hand crossbows. The problem, then, is making those 8 attacks better than the five the Rapid Shotting longbow user can dish out. Rogue levels can obviously help, but guaranteeing sneak attack without magic can be difficult. Swashbuckler's Int bonus might be better, since it's about comparable to the strength bonus a standard archer might get, and the higher Int can mean greater range of skills. Of course, you need to spend three levels to get there, while the archer doesn't need to spend levels to get a strength bonus to damage.
Of course, the problem then is carrying enough hand crossbows to go through 8 a round...
Also, the greater number of attacks can mean a greater chance of success with things like Ranged Disarm. With 8 disarm attempts in a round, you're pretty likely to knock the opposing bow out of his hands. And, it's a tactic that won't be effective if the archer decides to try it on you, since you can always draw yet another crossbow as a free action.
Pretty cool image overall. The archer pulls out his bow and notches an arrow. You dive down, pulling crossbow after crossbow from your cloak, first knocking the bow from his arms, then filling him with lots of small holes...
Even though is cheesy you can use dissimilar abilities on both till eventually the javelin is enchanted to an equivalent of +14 Special abilities and +5 from the bow.
+5/+5 Icechucker with +1/+9 Javelins leads to +5/+14 javelins once fired.
Scout / Psywar / Ftr / OotBI could get a significant punch into one heavy crossbow bolt, thanks to skirmish, precision shot, psychic shot, etc.
For a sniper build, I have a hard time seeing how you do much in the way of single shot damage without multishot. Maybe some kind of OOTBI/rogue build would work, but a rogue could use a dart and do massive damage, and all of those force you within 30' of the enemy.
Well, it's a little cheesy, but I used a fighter variant from a Dragon magazine (I'm not sure about the number) called Targeteer. Instead of a bonus feat at first level, they get Vital Aim, which gives Dex to to ranged damage. They also get some differnt skills and whatnot. Anyway, the idea was that, plus sniper feats from Races of the Wild, good hide skill, some sneak attack, keen bolts from Deepwood Sniper, the assassin spell that gives sneak attack at any range, gnome crossbow sight, and death attack, it should be pretty decent. Like I said before, you sacrifice some effectiveness for flavor when it comes to using a crossbow.
Pretty cool image overall. The archer pulls out his bow and notches an arrow. You dive down, pulling crossbow after crossbow from your cloak, first knocking the bow from his arms, then filling him with lots of small holes...
Sounds like a scene from the Matrix. :D
Rather than try to make a crossbowman work like a bowman, why not optimize it on its own terms? A crossbow excels in firing off one heavy shot, so why not stack as much power into one shot as possible?
Except that it doesn't excel at one shot. Even the exotic Great Crossbow (2d8 damage, RS) only does 9 points, which is essentially the same as what a composit bow str+4 does (8.5 per shot).
Heavy crossbow is 3 points behind the composite bow on a per-shot basis. There just isn't any getting around it.
On the range side of the equation, flight arrows or dragonbone enhancement allow the comp bow to outrange the heaviest crossbow as well. You keep going back to the only real edge being the ability to fire prone, and the ability to fire with one hand.
That said, your only advantage is going to be dual wielding. Bring a bunch of repeating crossbows, so you can just draw another one when the first one runs out. Do your best to maximize that advantage. Alternatively, you can try to maximize one shot each round using Order of the Bow Initiate+Greater Psionic Shot+Psionic Meditation, so you'll get 4d6+5d8(don't have the book in front of me) extra damage on that one shot, but I wouldn't count on that being too effective. Your opponent can just do it better with Manyshot instead of Order of the Bow.
Oh yeah! I just remembered another thing you could use if you decide not to dual wield: Deflect Arrows. It's only usable when you've got a hand free, which coincidentally you do most of the time, and your opponent doesn't. This is the second advantage that an archer can't replicate. A thri-kreen using this and three crossbows would be able to reload, and still deflect arrows.
Does such a mod exist? If so, from where does it hail and what is it called?
+ Girallon arms soul meld + rapid shot + 6 * +1 keen, morfing, bolt storing, hand crossbow of collision and speed = 20 attacks!
Right now I play a Ranger 2, Targeteer 4 in a campaign and he does 1d10 (heavy repeating crossbow) + 1d6 (flaming) + 10 (6 dex, 2 specialization, 1 point blank, 1 enchantment) damage per attack, up to 4 times per round (2 regular, 3 with rapid shot, 4 with arrow storm). His bonuses are +14/+9, +12/+12/+7, or +9/+9/+9/+4. Remember, this is a 6th level character here. Not many 6th level characters can average 80 damage per round. Here's the kicker: Improved Buckler Defense. Now you've got a shield (maybe enchanted) bonus to AC even when firing and reloading your crossbow in both hands. At 7th level, go for Exotic Weapon Master for the ability to shoot your crossbow in melee with no attacks of opportunity. Surprise the hell out of your group when you nail all 4 opponents as they grapple with 4 of your buddies using precise shot.
Vital Aim makes the strength stat completely obsolete. Would this feat be better for a bowman than a crossbowman? Not on your life. Crossbows can be fired while prone, have great ranges, twice the critical range, and can be used by just about anyone. If you can dig up a spare feat, throw in weapon finesse so you're still viable in hand-to-hand.
Eat your heart out, Legolas.
In short, I was wondering if there are any crossbow builds out there that can match up to the archer without using spells?
The idea is to use a 28 point build, no level adjusted races, and no online sources(basically, no crystalkeep). I'm limited to Core, Complete, UA, and XPH
So far, the best idea i've heard in regards to this is Neo the Crossbowman. And I can see him getting through, maybe 2 rounds of drawing 8 crossbows a round and dropping them before he starts running out of room on his person. I mean seriously, how are you storing all of these within arm's reach (without magic)?
Now, another possible thought is a handful of cohorts reloading your crossbows and holding them for you as you draw/fire them. But to be fair, wouldn't the archer get the same cohorts who could just shoot bows at your cohorts?
Crossbows have, as far as I can see, three advantages to longbows: 1) lower stat dependency to use; 2) ability to fire while prone; 3) the ability to benefit from two weapon fighting.
TWF gives us 3 extra attacks, but only when we meet some outrageous circumstances. Otherwise, we're limited to as many attacks as the archer.
OoTB is completley out - it requires a shortbow or longbow (or their composites). The only possibility I see for the crossbowman would be exotic weapon master, but since the greatbow is also an exotic weapon, I don't think we're going to see it happen.
All of this being said, my PC's are definitely going to run into a Thri-Kreen who keeps pulling light crossbows out of his pockets. Permanency and Shrink Item, anyone?
Collision (XPH) psionic weapon enchantment is +5 to damage for +3 (IIRC) helps replace no STR bonus to damage.
Convince your DM to get a Repeating Crossbow with an extradimensional space for bolts (like a Quiver of Ehlonna).
That's all I got.
Jermlaine (Tiny, MMII, +0 LA, -6 Str, +6 Dex) getting you size bonus to hit, hide, etc. and high Dex.
+0 LA? Where does it say that? There are no level adjustments given in MMII.
Convince your DM to get a Repeating Crossbow with an extradimensional space for bolts (like a Quiver of Ehlonna).
If 3.0 is an option, the Quick-Loading enhancement (Arms & Equipment Guide) does basically that, allowing you to store up to 100 crossbow bolts in an extradimensional space (and basically giving you Rapid Reload for free).
Also, a Halfling Rogue build with the Substitution levels. only a -10 Penalty to Hide after sniping, and with the sniping feat, you can fire, hide and move? I'd buff out my hide, use a crossbow that way, and get him with the SA.
And the Leadership thing, to make a whole bunch of crossbowman cohorts, is a very creative and excellent idea.
If your DM will let you carry a loaded crossbow in a holster of some sort, then it can be a handy back-up weapon - but overall, a bow user will always be better than a crossbow user.
All of this being said, my PC's are definitely going to run into a Thri-Kreen who keeps pulling light crossbows out of his pockets. Permanency and Shrink Item, anyone?
Lets see, something large, shrink item, permanency, and a couple loaded balistas. Nothing like a balista wielding giant.
I think at least with 3 levels of swashbuckler you can apply int to damage of a hand crossbow. Pump the xbow and Int and you could be close to an archer in damage with your int damage vs their str damage. Maybe that would be enough to pull it off?
There is no way magical enchantment/item/anything to get strength damage added to an xbow?
I think at least with 3 levels of swashbuckler you can apply int to damage of a hand crossbow. Pump the xbow and Int and you could be close to an archer in damage with your int damage vs their str damage. Maybe that would be enough to pull it off?
Insightful Strike (is that the right name?) is melee only.
Insightful strike lets you add Int damage to "finesse" attacks, implying weapons that benefit from weaon finesse. Weapon finesse mentions "a light weapon," but nothing about the light weapon having to be melee. I remember reading somewhere about how a character can take any feat and not necessarily gain anything from it (like a fighter taking widen spell). Theoretically, any light ranged weapon could be finessed (though gain nothing since it's already dex based) and then gain the benefits of Insightful Strike.
Any comments on this?
You've got the same problem the ranged disarm folks have - what "weapon size" should I apply to a projectile weapon? The answer is "Your DM will make something up, cause the rules+FAQ provide zero guidance".
IF your DM rules that a projectile weapon is considered light AND he rules that makes it "finessable" and subject to insightful strike THEN it might work.
But it would then also likely work with a composite bow too....unless the DM restricts it to hand crossbows or something.
...You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons..."
No, it doesn't say specifically that they are light weapons, but it does say they are treated as light weapons. Same holds true for the hand crossbow, but not the heavy crossbow. No mention to this is made in the descriptions of either longbow or shortbow, except that you need two hands to use them.
However, I'm not sure this helps us any. Now we need Int and Dex for our attacks, were as the greatbow wielder needs Str and Dex. Since the crossbow does less damage and has less range, I'd still say any build utilizing it is going to be inferior.
Here's a fun one: Manyshot. Try doing THAT with a crossbow.
It worked in diablo2... :P thought it was technically split arrow... :D
It worked in diablo2... :P thought it was technically split arrow... :D
Not only that, but that required a skill slot, which would equate to something like psionics in v3.5.
OotBI abilities are technically usable with a x-bow, you just have to 'waste' a feat on weapon focus(bow) & have weapon focus(x-bow).
I think the best tactic with an x-bow would be Halfling Rog 1(+1d6 sneak)/Ninja 15(+8d6 sudden strike, ki ghost step: ethereal 7+wis/day)/Asn 3(+2d6 sneak)/Shadow Dancer 1(HiPS) using a hand x-bow.
Feats: deadly precision, zen archery, dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, point blank shot, rapid reload.
Attack: +13 BAB +dex +wis +1(PBS) +weapon +magic
Damage: 1(PBS) +11d6(sneak/sudden, reroll 1s) +weapon +magic
Stats 28pb: Str 6, Dex 18(23@lvl 20, 34 w/+5 tome +6 gloves),Con 15(26 w/max magic),Int 10, Wis 15(26 w/ max magic), Cha 8
Location: Somewhere shadowy
Tactic: Poison bolt, sneak w/i 30'(hide: +27+dex+magic), shoot. From here you either hide in plain sight or go ethereal & poison another bolt.
Another idea is to go the OotBI + skirmish route while mounted, hopefully ducking behind a large rock or something after your shot.
Either way, focus on making one very potent shot and not allowing the bow user to get a full-attack on you.
x-bows are ranged weapons, period. Light x-bows can be treated as light weapons for the purpose of TWF, period.
Waiter, I'd like some rules with that smugness.
Like I said in my post though, there's no rules backing up anything I said. I'm also VERY curious how you go into OoTBI with a crossbow, as the feats required specifically say with a shortbow or longbow. You can stretch Greatbow, because of the sidebar that mentions them counting as longbows for the purpose of feats - but this is at the DM's discretion.
Finally, reread the original post. The idea is for a crossbowman to beat an archer WITHOUT magic. And it just can't be done.
What we need is a way to raise crossbow damage that can't also be done by a bow. The only plausible way provided so far is TWF, to get more attacks per round, and boy, that's hard to make work at all, and requires so many feats, takes attack roll hits and requires so much expensive equipment that you STILL might not outdamage a normal archer who put more cash into his bow and has more archery feats. Keep in mind a normal archer peaks at 6 attacks a round (including haste), and TWF can add at most 3 more. This is more or less true across the level ranges...at low levels archer gets 2 shots, TWF xbow gets 3.
So unless the crossbow damage keeps up with 2/3 of the bow damage AND you can afford two crossbows that do that level of damage, AND the fact that you're down 2-4 feats compared to the archer (quickdraw plus the three TWF feats at minimum, plus likely exotic weapon proficiency and/or magic enhancements to autoreload the crossbows) doesn't impair your damage any, the crossbow still loses.
Insightful Strike (is that the right name?) is melee only.
I checked the errata and I do not think that is true but I am not 100% sure. It says any light weapon or a weapon that can be used with weapon finesse but does not specifically mention melee weapons. The way it mentions the strength bonus can sort of be used as a way of it implying that it is a melee weapon only ability but by no means is it for sure set in stone through the wording of that ability.
Reading it myself I really can't see anyway that it is melee only, to me the blip about strength bonus still applying to damage is poorly worded extra info incase you are actually using a melee weapon so you know your strength still applies.
So then does that have a bearing on if it is melee only or not? This is another one of those damnable things where it might come to a DM call unless there was something posted somewhere that can clear it up? This has got me confused.
What build can be made (if any) that the bow archer cannot do that the x-bow archer can do that will make the x-bow archer better (or just as good) as the bow archer.
The thing I have seen in most of these suggestions, is that what one character can do so can the other basically mooting the point. Someone mentioned 3 levels of swashbuckler...well that's nice - the bow guy can also take 3 levels of swashbuckler.
What build can be made (if any) that the bow archer cannot do that the x-bow archer can do that will make the x-bow archer better (or just as good) as the bow archer.
I believe all regular bows would not qualify as light, you would need something like a small sized shortbow, and a medium sized character using a small shortbow might look kind of silly. :D
But even then if the shortbow qualified how it works out is this is one of those odd occurences where it helps the xbow more then the regular archer because it evens the playing field a bit.
An archer if he wants to take 3 levels of swash now has to worry about dex, strength, and int to increase the power of the bow. Strength can apply to all damage with the bow while insightful strike is precision. So if the archer just pumps int lets say now he is at almost at the same level as the xbow. The archer can pull ahead only if he has a bow that qualifies for insightful strike, and is able to pump up both strength and intelligence which is not that hard at high levels I guess but xbow can keep up at lower levels.
With the TWF feats you might be able to stay close to an archer with damage.
Well, it's a little cheesy, but I used a fighter variant from a Dragon magazine (I'm not sure about the number) called Targeteer. Instead of a bonus feat at first level, they get Vital Aim, which gives Dex to to ranged damage. They also get some differnt skills and whatnot. Anyway, the idea was that, plus sniper feats from Races of the Wild, good hide skill, some sneak attack, keen bolts from Deepwood Sniper, the assassin spell that gives sneak attack at any range, gnome crossbow sight, and death attack, it should be pretty decent. Like I said before, you sacrifice some effectiveness for flavor when it comes to using a crossbow.
Waiter, I'd like some rules with that smugness.
There are four categories of weapons with reguard to size/usage: Light Melee, One-Handed Melee, Two-Handed Melee & Ranged. Some melee weapons can be used to make ranged attacks. Some ranged weapons can be used to make melee attacks. x-bows are still classified as ranged weapons. If you attack with a light or hand x-bow in each hand, you take a penalty on attack roles as if fighting with two light weapons. The x-bows are still ranged weapons.
Extrapolating that, because light x-bows are considered light weapons with reguard to TWF, they can be considered light weapons in other ways is in no way supported by the RAW.
I'm also VERY curious how you go into OoTBI with a crossbow, as the feats required specifically say with a shortbow or longbow.
Please read the text before you critisize.
Requirements
...Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow, shortbow, or the composite version of either).
...
Ranged Precision (Ex):
...An initiate can only use this ability with a ranged weapons for which he has taken the Weapon Focus feat.
Take weapon focus (light x-bow) along with weapon focus "(longbow, shortbow, or the composite version of either)."
There are four categories of weapons with reguard to size/usage: Light Melee, One-Handed Melee, Two-Handed Melee & Ranged. Some melee weapons can be used to make ranged attacks. Some ranged weapons can be used to make melee attacks. x-bows are still classified as ranged weapons. ((X)) If you attack with a light or hand x-bow in each hand, you take a penalty on attack roles as if fighting with two light weapons. The x-bows are still ranged weapons.
At point X is where there needs to be some kind of proof. Right now you're just saying "Crossbows are ranged, therefore you take penalties as if attacking with two light weapons." Which, of couse, makes no sense.
Extrapolating that, because light x-bows are considered light weapons with reguard to TWF, they can be considered light weapons in other ways is in no way supported by the RAW.
This honestly confuses me. What, exactly, are you trying to say?
Couldn't you use a Heavy X-Bow in the build? Slap in Rapid Reload feat, magic x-bow that has a rapid reload ability (forgot which book it's from but i think they stack). Give it far shot, and all the other fun feats from that previous posting build. What would that work out to be?
If the Heavy Crossbow has the Self-Loading magical ability, then you don't need Rapid Reload.
Unfortunately, even with Rapid Reload, reloading a crossbow requires two hands; thus, there needs a weapon ability that automatically loads the said bolts.
Does such a mod exist? If so, from where does it hail and what is it called?
Yes, in Arms and Equipment (3.0 book, which actually wasn't permitted as a source by the OP) has a magical ability called "Self-Loading", which holds 100 bolts at a time and reloads the crossbow instantly (as was said earlier in the thread).
Also, to all the people that say that +4Str can just be added to bows, a double 18 in point buy (generally the standard stat generation) is never a smart move. And starting out it's harder to get your hands on a Mighty[+4] bow than it is to get a simple light crossbow. For the first few levels (say 1-3) the crossbow user will be slightly ahead of you in the treasure curve, which might make a difference as far as actual play goes, even if it doesn't change a "clean room" competition.
Many go with +3 (16 str)
Some go with +2 and take rage to get to +4
Some just take wood elves and do both (I used a 18/17 mix, getting more dex at level 4...the diff between a +1 to hit at levels 1-3 and 8-11 and a +1 to hit between levels 4-7 and 12-15 not mattering much to me).
The cash you earn between level 1-2 will earn you a mighty bow, but seriously...a strong character does far more than a crossbow just by using javelins. Archers who waste cash on a non-mighty bow in the level 1 arena are just hurting themselves. Javelins are cheap, give full str bonus and you don't have rapid shot anyway to make use of a bow till level 2-3, depending on your build. 30' range mod is good enough for many battlefields. When it isn't, borrow the crossbow from the wizard who is just gonna miss with it anyway
...or save back a bow or crossbow from one of the bad guys you fight until you get a real weapon..
There are four categories of weapons with reguard to size/usage: Light Melee, One-Handed Melee, Two-Handed Melee & Ranged. Some melee weapons can be used to make ranged attacks. Some ranged weapons can be used to make melee attacks. x-bows are still classified as ranged weapons. If you attack with a light or hand x-bow in each hand, you take a penalty on attack roles as if fighting with two light weapons. The x-bows are still ranged weapons.
Extrapolating that, because light x-bows are considered light weapons with reguard to TWF, they can be considered light weapons in other ways is in no way supported by the RAW.
Page numbers for any of this? No, not the equipment table. I want an actual page where it says Crossbows (or ranged weapons) don't have sizes categories because they're ranged.
We've found another spot that the rules don't cover. It seems obvious (to me) that ranged weapons should also have size categories, but it seems that this was left out in exchange for simplicity. Which is where it's a DM's job to make the ruling.
If it takes penalties like a light weapon, can be used like a light weapon, and has Light in it's friggin name, it seems logical to assume that it's a light weapon. We're not going to find any rules governing this, but common sense must prevail in these situations.
And to keep on rambling, you're argument (as someone already pointed out) offers no actual proof. You just restate the rules, then give your conclusion. You go from A to C without B which is a logical fallacy - though it's been too long since philosophy for me to tell you which one.
+0 LA? Where does it say that? There are no level adjustments given in MMII.
...
The 3.5 update document
As for the power level thay can be evenly matched under right circumstances.
I played a Gnome Ranger-Fighter crossbowmaster that always designed whacky machiniery such as this:
Twinklefilklintinklepararklinsin's portable artiliery was practicly a combination of two repeating heavy crossbows connected together with 10 bolt's in each compartment. It could be fired only from prone position (a full round action to mount).
The basic tactics for this was:
1st round: get prone (+4AC) and mount the crossbow
2nd-4th round: fire 3 shots per round with rapid shot, each shot launches 2 1d10 bolts (and when wizard casted Magic Weapon on bolts each dealt +3damage)
5th round: fire a shot and reload the crossbow with rapid reload as a move action.
I addition to all that i had fun all the campaign creatng different types of crossbows, balistas, shileds, bolts and such
Crossbows are realy great for small characters since thay have penalty on strenght but thay make good ranged wariors for bonus on AC and to hit
Page numbers for any of this? No, not the equipment table. I want an actual page where it says Crossbows (or ranged weapons) don't have sizes categories because they're ranged.
Xbows do have size catagories, but that doesn't make them light. Consider this:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
Note the first sentence. A light xbow is a ranged weapon, per the weapon table. It is not light, one-handed, or two-handed. Therefore, it cannot be altered by one step on the table because it is not one the table.
Also, consider this:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
Lessee..."Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand". If a xbow is a light weapon, this is a huge advantage for xbow users vs. bow users. Plus, you get to use it in grapples! The amazing versatility of the crossbow gives them a clear edge over other bows.
If it takes penalties like a light weapon, can be used like a light weapon, and has Light in it's friggin name, it seems logical to assume that it's a light weapon. We're not going to find any rules governing this, but common sense must prevail in these situations.
Um, if they wanted it to be a light weapon, they would have called it a light weapon, instead of say "as if attacking with two light weapons" [implying that you're not].
Pump intelligence and use spells to increase your atk/damage with the xbows and also have tons of skill points to be the partys complete skill monkey.
Couple that with bardsong and IMHO you actually have a decent ranged character with other abilities.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:
None of what you cited in that paragraph applies, as a crossbow is not a melee weapon.
And as far as grappling goes, why not? Couldn't you shoot a gun in a grapple? A light or hand crossbow is essentially the same. Remember, if you're in graple, you're loosing all of the crossbow's ranged abilities, and it'll be impossible to reload it. You'd also provoke an AoO. This doesn't seem outlandish or unbalancing at all.
Look at this from a logical point, instead of trying to read the rules for loopholes, etc. A hand crossbow is obviously smaller than a heavy crossbow - I'm saying a hand crossbow should get some benefit for this, and that this benefit could potentially stack with benefits granted to other light weapons.
A strict reading of the rules may not support this (though I've previously shown why I think it does), but they don't deny it either. There just aren't any rules that cover this situation.
CROSSBOW SNIPER
You are skilled in lining up accurate, deadly shots with your crossbow. Perhaps you add custom-made sights to your weapon, or you have learned to maximize the stability and precision the weapon offers.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, Weapon Focus with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your Dexterity bonus.
If you have the skirmish or sneak attack ability, the maximum range at which you can make such attacks increases to 60 feet when you are using a crossbow for which you have the Weapon Focus feat.
Special: A fighter can select Crossbow Sniper as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Now those high dex TWF crossbowers get to add 1/2 their dex to damage every shot. I think this would match if not exceed the composite strength bows. Is 7 hand x-bow shots the best that can be done?
Question, why don't you just have a plethora of unseen servents with readied actions to reload your crossbow? Use leadership and a level 1 sorcerer to have it, or just pay for it from an NPC.
Well, it is possible but not nearly as stylish as someone who quickdraws dozens of crossbows and makes a pincushion out of their opponents :D
Under hand x-bow, it says you can shoot it with one hand with no penalty and shoot 2 as if attacking with two light weapons. Multiweapon fighting and EWM will negate virtually all of the penalties.
Thri-Kreen Totemist 4/Fighter 8/Ranger 2/EWM 3
BAB 18
Dex = 17 start +4 levels +4 racial +5 inherent +6 enhancement=36 (+13)
Note: starting with 15 will still net the same damage bonus.
Feats
[fighter] Weapon proficiency (hand x-bow)
[fighter] Precise shot
[fighter] Weapon focus (hand x-bow)
[fighter] Weapon specialization (hand x-bow)
[fighter] Crossbow sniper
[Ranger] Rapid shot
[Ranger] Track
[1] Expand Essentia capacity (sighting gloves)
[3] Multiweapon fighting
[6] Rapid reload
[9] Improved miltiweapon fighting
[12] Shape soulmeld (sighting gloves)
[15] Bonus essentia
[18] Greater multiweapon fighting
With exotic weapon master: he can fire without provoking AOOs, attempt ranged disarms, and lessen the penalities for multiweapon fighting to -1.
With Totemist he will bind girallon arms to his totem. 1 arm will be used for rapid reload, the other can fire another x-bow (I think).
Invest your 5 essentia into the sighting gloves for +5 insight damage.
Damage from each bolt: +6 dex +5 insight +2 specialization +1 enhancement=14
Since we need not drop these x-bows, we can enhance them a bit. This can get expensive with 5 x-bows, but the splitting enhancement (+3) from champions of ruin is definetly worth it as it will double all our shots. Also none of our damage is precision so we need not worry about the main drawback. 5 +4 weapons are expensive but reasonable at 20th level.
So we have to hit: +18 BAB +13 dex +1 enhancement +1 focus = +33
Each x-bow bolt will split effectively doubling all our shots.
Also with rapid reload, we can reload our x-bows as a free action to let us take advantage of rapid shot (maybe).
Rapid shot lowers our attacks by 2, multiweapon fighting (with EWM) by 1.
I'm not entirely sure how rapid shot works with multiple weapons. A strict reading would seem to nix the extra shot for x-bows 2-5 in which case it might not be worth using.
X-bow #1: +30 / +30 / +30 / +30 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +15
X-Bows #2-5: +30 / +30 / + 30 / +30 / +25 / +25 / +20 / +20 [w/ rapid shot]
If rapid shot doesn't work:
+32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +32 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +27 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +22 / +16 / +16 still isn't too bad :P
Two Hand Crossbows -- the only crossbows I will concede can be wielded in TWF -- require EWP, Crossbow Sniper, and Two-Weapon Fighting to be close to a Composite Longbow with the Targeteer ability and Improved Critical. The difference then becomes:
The crossbows deal a little more damage -- 2d4 vs. 1d8; both get full DEX so that cancels -- but are a little less accurate and require two seperate attack rolls. (Remember, anything that increases randomness in combat is bad for the players.)
Obviously, it gets a lot more muddled with class features and all that, but here's my take on it:
Peerless Archer gets Power Shot. At that point, it's a difference between TWF and THF, except with range weapons.
Hmm...I'm not sure of the legality here. The premise is to use multiweapon fighting & rapid reload to fire a volley of death.
Seems alright (and quite impressive) to me. You do appear to be using LA buyoff, and you might want to mention that. I agree that with you that Rapid Shot is only good for one extra attack. Oh well. Also, Exotic Weapon Master is abbreviated to EWM, not EMW; that caused me some confusion.
I'm not sure, however, if the arms provided by Girallon Arms have normal manipulating hands. However, in Savage Species, Naga Arms would do the same thing (or allow 2 more crossbows, if Girallon Arms) for 56k gp.
First, race. Whisper gnome seems like the best choice, in that it can have a natural 20 in dex, its strength penelty and charisma penelty dont matter, and its small size will help it with attack bonus.
So...
either become a skirmisher(i dont have the books on hand) and just tumble around, roll to prone and pot shot your enemy with a good light crossbow and have rapid reload. What you really need is to max your dex, starting with a 20 nat at lvl 1, get a pair of epic +8 dex gloves, +5 tome, and add all lvl enhancments to dex. so a 38 dex, will give you +14 to attack, with at lvl 20 skirisher will be 39, A +5 crossbow with +5 bolt for every shot, which is much easier if your not taking ten shots a round is 49, plus being small 50, plus any other things like bless spells or temp buffs,or the class abilities from skirmisher. so at +50, your gunna hit 95% of the time(damn natural 1s') for 1d6 +10(magic)+7 dex+10d6 and any other things on your near epic equipment, and what sets this appart from a bowmen is that all of their rapid fire means that they use less magic arrows and they are more vulnible in melee in that they cant use a shield or move when using most abilities, were as with shot on the run a skirmisher can reak havoc on the archer while rolling behind cover and still hold a shield or a light weapon to protect from closing enemies. If the enemy archer also has precision damage such as sneak attack its only effective within 30 ft, so all the crossbowmen has to do is stay out of range. And the best part is going this rout leaves alot of feats open so that more specialization can be made. Oh, and my gnome has a 6 strength, 38dex,18 con, yours has at best(assuming elf) 18strength, 38 dex, and 6 con unless you have no points in wis cha int. you stupid ugly fool
Now whether your DM would allow all that is of course up in the air, but it makes for a great bit of flavor if your powerful Crossbow Master character was tasked to lead the local recruits in volley attacks to defend the city against an onslaught of hobgoblins :D
The feat that lets you use half your dex bonus for damage pretty much makes it work. By not having to split attributes between str and dex, the dex can be considerably higher, and even if the net damage is a bit less, the to-hit mod will be enough higher to make up the difference.
Costs more feats though to make it work, but sometimes attributes are more precious than feats (or the ability to fire while prone, or be a non-martial-weapon archer, or whatever, if all else is equal)
But here's something to think about, do you really want to roll all of those attacks, every round?
The more dice you roll the cooler you are....
Personally I'm trying to figure out what sort of an action the Raptorians "Glide" ability is. Is it a move action to glide? If not a Scout Raptorian with a crossbow and the right feats could do a really sick amount of damage to anything within 60 feet.
Now..im sure that with crossbow sniper and sneak attack/ skirmish damage, you can be equal or better then a bowman with the proper mobilization tactics.
You get to be unique. And, with the release of the PHB II, the crossbow has become the rogue's precision-based weapon of choice.
Feceman, I would call it special sooner than unique ...
Also, where can I find the info stating that you can shoot a xbow while prone?
In what book is the feat Rapid Reload?
Also, where can I find the info stating that you can shoot a xbow while prone?
Well I don't have my 3.5 PHB with me but it is in the SRD so it is probably in the PHB.
The Targeteer's Vital Aim ability doesn't work on creatures immune to critical hits.
Eight attacks a round,each with sneak attack, and 1/2 dex, and all from a distance of 60 ft
Plus, str is a dump, so no need to pump it and being small isn't as hindering
plus, this way with repeating hand crossbows, you can deal massive while within a antimagic area, unlike many archer builds
I'm going to assume that the OP means non-gestalt stuff from UA, otherwise, the build would start out with Fighter//Rogue and a ring of blinking (unless you count that as spells).
Here would be an example build, just using Fighter 20. If you count the ring of blinking as not being a spell, then I would throw a lot more Rogue in there. I would use Halfling Fighter 12/ Rogue 8 Instead. I'm not sure of good PrC for this build.
Human Fighter 20
Str 10
Dex 27 (+8) (16 + 5 Level, +6 Item)
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
My mind is shot right now, but it may be in this order, you may need to shuffle the feats around because of my absent mindedness.
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (F1), Rapid Shot (H1), Two Weapon Fighting (F2), Rapid Reload (3), Improved Rapid Shot (F4), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (6), Monkey Grip (F6), Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (F8), Improved Critical: Light Crossbow (9), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (F12), Ranged Disarm (12), Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow (F14), Weapon Specialization: Light Crossbow (15), Greater Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow (F16), Greater Weapon Specialization: Light Crossbow (18), Ranged Sunder (F18), Improved Precise Shot (F20)
2 +5 Icy Burst Wounding Large Automatic Light Crossbow (2d6/ 17-20)
With an Improved Rapid Shot, will look something like
+29/ +29/ +29/ +29/ +24/ +24/ +19/ +19/ +14/ +14 (2d6 + 1d6 Cold +1 Con +4 Weapon Spec/ 17-20)
In the Fight, I would use the first couple of attacks to disarm your opponent and then use adamantite bolts to destroy his bow.
Again, add a potion of Haste, Ring of Blinking, and Rogue Levels and it changes things a lot.
Just wanted to make mention that monkey grip and over sized two weapon do not stack. Crossbows are a flavourfull weapon and can be usefull dual wielding if you can get by the need 2 hands to reload. It would be nice to be able to do it with out magic means, and without needing a third arm. I mean really if someone can solve a rubix cube in under 30sec with one hand, why cant he reload a hand crossbow with one? take a feat and get some type of hostler to play them in while withdrawing a bolt. SO maybe quickdraw and quickload(random name of a possible feat) even with the prereq being rapid reload.
I made an NPC crossbowman (crossbow woman, actually) for the game I'm running that hasn't been introduced yet, and I'll try to type it up here. I was exhausted when I made it, though, and there may be errors I didn't notice.
thanx
is there any magic item à la Bracers of archery to boost a Crossbower?
thanx
Not that I am aware of but there is no reason that there couldn't be, certianly such a thing could be made for an equal price.
I know its not 3.5, yet there is a neat little item for crossbow users in the Arms and Equipment guidebook. The Gnome, Crossbow Scope.
Its non-magical, does not cost much, and improves the effective range a crossbow can be fired at over that of a bow hands down.
The thing is, your just not going to find much cool crossbow stuff in core. So use the tumbling bolts from AaEG (+2 damage, half range) Gnome sights (to make up for the range penalty) the Crossbow Sniper feat from PHBII (+ half dex bonus to damage, round down). In the end, your damage is comparable to that of a bowman, and thats what we're realy aiming for right? (ahem)
And for the last time it reqiures two hands to reload a reapeating crossbow. One to hold the crossbow, the other to pull the lever.
I see nothing wrong with using Arms & Equip. guide even if it's not 3.5. If WotC ever came out with a comparable gear book that would be great. But untill they do... Besides, not much in the way of game stats for weapons changed in 3.5.
The thing is, your just not going to find much cool crossbow stuff in core. So use the tumbling bolts from AaEG (+2 damage, half range) Gnome sights (to make up for the range penalty) the Crossbow Sniper feat from PHBII (+ half dex bonus to damage, round down). In the end, your damage is comparable to that of a bowman, and thats what we're realy aiming for right? (ahem)
And for the last time it reqiures two hands to reload a reapeating crossbow. One to hold the crossbow, the other to pull the lever.
In the end... yeah... damage is comparable. Gnome Crossbow Sights make the crossbow a better weapon than a bow at ranges of three increments or more.
The Cragtop Archer PrC is perfect for the Crossbow Sniper.
Rather than try to make a crossbowman work like a bowman, why not optimize it on its own terms? A crossbow excels in firing off one heavy shot, so why not stack as much power into one shot as possible?
Scout / Psywar / Ftr / OotBI could get a significant punch into one heavy crossbow bolt, thanks to skirmish, precision shot, psychic shot, etc.
This is rather genius I must say.
However, I think that x-bows will always be a step behind, just the way the game is played i guess.
As someone (pinky's brain?) has already pointed out, this is not a problem when you have gloves of storing - free action storing/retrieval allows TWF Rapid Reload.
This means all you have to worry about is getting a larger amount of attacks per round and then getting some extra damage tacked on per attack. Sneak attack damage is probably best (and Rog level gives free hand Xbow proficiency which is nice also). I'll leave it to someone else to worry about the nitty-gritty but that's the principle.
And now you only have to worry about two expensive Xbows instead of 9 or whatever.
Another advantage is clearly seen when you look at the splitting enhancement. for example, a multishot fired from a bow at +16 bab gives you what, 6 attacks IIRC? if you have a speed bow, thats increased to 7. With splitting, that's 14. Now if you take a crossbow-er (-ist?)(-man?) with GTWF you have base 7, speed for 8, splitting for 16. That's 2 more attacks. Add to that the fact that you get half dex to damage, can precision damage from 60', the only thing that a bow has going for it is that it's more common, and thus more splatbook-able.
Ranged weapons you don't throw use most of the rules for two-weapon fighting; however, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and related feats don't apply to ranged weapons that aren't thrown.
also in the same article :
Here's a summary:
Hand Crossbow: Treat a hand crossbow as a light weapon in a two-weapon attack.
Light Crossbow: Treat a light crossbow as a light weapon in a two-weapon attack; you also take a -2 attack penalty when firing a light crossbow one-handed. If you were shooting a light crossbow with each hand you'd have a -6 penalty with your primary hand and a -10 penalty with your off hand. A light crossbow is a light weapon, so the basic penalty is -4 for your primary hand and -8 for your off hand, and you must add the -2 penalty for one-handed shooting on top of that.
Heavy Crossbow: Treat a heavy crossbow as a one-handed weapon in a two-weapon attack; you also take a -4 attack penalty when firing a heavy crossbow one-handed. If you were shooting a heavy crossbow with each hand, you'd have a -10 penalty with your primary hand and a -14 penalty with your off hand. A heavy crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so the basic penalty is -6 for your primary hand and -10 for your off hand, and you must add the -4 penalty for one-handed shooting on top of that.
Repeating Crossbow: Use the rules for the crossbow's size. Even when the repeating crossbow's magazine holds bolts, you must use two hands to reload it.
Slings
You can fire, but not reload, a sling with one hand. You can't use a sling as part of a two-weapon attack.
So the answer is quite definitive. As much as I like crossbows, you can't really make it on par with a bow without DM fiat...
I kinda like the idea of using a Double Crossbow with the Quickloading weapon enhancement from Magic of Faerun. Granted, it would be expensive to put the enchantment on both parts of the weapons.
I had a character in a game I played in... that had Quickloading placed on one part of his Double Crossbow. I never got to use the crossbow however as the game ended suddenly due to the DM quiting. I had a feeling like the weapon could be used kinda like a Semi-auto rifle... with a underslung grenade launcher for special ammo. I was using a Totemist at the time... so he was not set up for using the crossbow to its full potential. I would have kept one crossbow loaded with "special" ammo... and used the other to fire once per round with a more normal bolt.
The Gloves of Storing are a way ... but i dont think most DMs would allow you to do that this way ;)
Because switching the weapon like 5 times in and out in a single round would bring almost any DM up on the barricades ^^.
You could still deliver all attacks with your on hand and then all with your off hand ... or is there somewhere a rule saying you have to deliver one attack with the on hand and then one attack with the off hand before attacking again with the on hand?
but an automatic crossbow still needs you to pull back the little lever for the next bolt to load. if you have one in each hand, how again are you re-loading? and do not say rapid reload - that makes you reload FASTER not make an invisble third hand, that all people clearly have, reload for you.
i was just wondering...
first of all use UMD to use a wand to cast the spell from races of the dragon to give him the dragonblood subtype. then use a +1 double bow of speed splitting, have imrpoved rapid shot, and you shoot...
+18, +13, +8, +3, +18 (Speed), +18 (improved Rapid Shot)
which, because of double bow, actually release two arrows each.
+18, +18, +13, +13, +8, +8, +3, +3, +18 (Speed), +18 (Doubled Speed), +18 (Imp. Rap. Shot), +18 (Doubled Imp. Rap. Shot)
Now every arrow that came out right there ^^^ is split, creating alot more...
+18, +18, +18, +18, +13, +13, +13, +13, +8, +8, +8, +8, +3, +3, +3, +3, +18 (Speed), +18 (Speed that was split), +18 (Doubled Speed), +18 (Doubled Speed that was split), +18 (Imp. Rap. Shot), +18 (Imp. Rap. Shot that was split), +18 (Doubled Imp. Rap. Shot), +18 (Doubled Imp. Rap. Shot that was split)
So, all in all you have +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +18, +13, +13, +13, +13, +8, +8, +8, +8,
+3, +3, +3, +3. Thats alot of arrows isnt it. need i mention all doing +11d6 Sneak because your enemy now has the dragonblood subtype?
Ouch.
Go Halfling Scout/Order of the Bow Initiate (Strongheart Halfling if playing Forgotten Realms). Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Weapon Focus: Heavy Repeating Crossbow, Crossbow Sniper, Precise Shot, Point Bland Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Shortbow (prerequisite for OBI).
You can wind up with pretty nasty AC, and a bunch of extra dice. Only drawback is fighting things you can't crit, as Scout's Skirmish and OBI's Ranged Precision won't apply.
He needs the Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting and the Greater Multiweapon Fighting Feats, so he gets 3 more attacks with his other arms.
So we have 4 Attacks with our on hand and 3 with out off.
If we use Rapid Shot andthe Speed Property we can get 6 Attacks On Hand and 3 Off Hand.
Since we have 4 Arms we can use 2 Bows.
Attacks:
On Hand: 6 Attacks * 2 (Double Bow) * 2 (Splitting)
Off Hand: 3 Attacks * 2 (Double Bow) * 2 (Splitting)
That makes a total of 24 Primary and 12 Secondary! The attack bonus will suck ... but you have many chances to roll some 20s ;)
Weee ... the ultimate 36 d20 rolling fun every round.
Wouldn't the Warforged Armbow from Eberron solve the reload problem?
I'm surprised that nobody else has run with this. Grab a Warforged Scout (optimal for Dex) and give him two Armbows (I realize you can't do the Two Weapon Fighting approach with ranged weapons, but it gives you another 25 bolts before having to tap into hit points, and it just looks cool :D ). Start with Fighter for the basic feats. A few levels of Psychic Warrior with the Vigor power gives him tons of temporary hit points to power the Armbows. Add in Scout for Skirmish damage, and finish with Exotic Weapon Master so you can safely fire without drawing AoOs and for a few fun tricks.
Psiforged Scout Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 6/Scout5/Exotic Weapon Master 3
Fighter1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Light Crossbow), Psiforged
Fighter2: Weapon Focus (Repeating Light Crossbow)
PsiWar1: Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot; Vigor
PsiWar2: Precise Shot; Compression
Scout1: Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding
Scout2: Crossbow Sniper; Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge
PsiWar3: Offensive Prescience
Fighter3:
Scout3: Psionic Meditation; Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, Trackless Step
Fighter4: Body As Weapon (Warforged Racial Substitution Level)
PsiWar4: Hustle
Scout4: Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run
PsiWar5: Greater Psionic Shot, Moment of Insight
Fighter5:
Scout5: Ranged Weapon Mastery; Evasion, Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC
PsiWar6: Dissolving Weapon
Fighter6: Practiced Manifester
EWM1: Fell Shot; Close Quarters Ranged Combat
EWM2: Ranged Disarm
EWM3: Show Off
With Compression, you lose nothing due to strength loss, still keep your speed, get attack, damage, and AC bonus, you can hide with ease, and make an already funny image hilarious: A Diminutive living construct zipping around the battlefield, firing bolts from both arms in slow-motion... think of a John Woo-style Mega Man :D
Damage from each bolt varies, but a full attack volley while using Hustle to get your Skirmish dice and Offensive Prescience nabs you five bolts dealing 1d3+2d6+10+1/2 Dex damage each at a range of up to 60 feet. At full strength with Dissolving Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon, a single shot can deal 1d3+13d6+10+1/2 Dex damage. Not huge, but not too shabby, either.
Also, aside from the Crossbow Sniper feat in...PHBII, there's no other crossbow-specific feat?
I would imagine a PrC, weapon style feat, and several general and tactical feats all involving crossbows. Many people like crossbows, yet that stuff seems to be disregarded by WotC.
PHBII makes a crossbow char a lot more viable with adding dex to damage. It means you can avoid the MAD of a normal bow archer. The cost though is really two extra feats (rapid reload and the dex damage feat). That's the route I'd go to do a crossbower in 3.5.
For the other approaches...crossbows take two hands to use, and so do bows. The fact that you can fire them with one hand (unlike a bow) is extraordinarily hard to exploit (any scheme that involves reloading multiple crossbows, such as thi-kreen can be done equally well with bows). You need multiple preloaded crossbows and quickdraw, and ideally a servant horde reloading all the dropped weapons and replacing them where you can quickdraw them.
I have no idea what can be done with Eberron warforged, having never even looked at any sourcebook associated with that setting. So maybe that approach might work (armbows).
if you catch them in the surprise round (flat footed) and you have used the deft strike feat (i believe thats the one which lets you ignore Armor bonus to AC), its safe to assume you will hit with all your attacks...
(Assuming a dex of 20 and a str of 18 [you can use a belt of giant str or somehting])
dealing:
24* 1d8+Str+Dex+11d6
so: 24* 1d8 + 24*4 + 24*5 + 24*11d6
so about 24d8+264d6+96+120...
which on average is 1050 damage in the surprise round.
ouch.
which on average is 1050 damage in the surprise round.
ouch.
Uh...you can't full attack in the surprise round.
So to do all that (assuming it works, I have not checked the mechanics) you need to win init in the first round
The fact that you can fire them with one hand (unlike a bow) is extraordinarily hard to exploit (any scheme that involves reloading multiple crossbows, such as thi-kreen can be done equally well with bows). You need multiple preloaded crossbows and quickdraw, and ideally a servant horde reloading all the dropped weapons and replacing them where you can quickdraw them.
Actualy all you need is the "quick loading" weapon ability, which automaticaly reloads your weapon as a free action and holds 100 bolts that replenish every day.
Is it true in all the DnD resources there is no such thing as a strength crossbow?
As for the quick loading ability it does contain 100 bolts but it doesn't replenish, you have to load each one as a move action.
and sorry i alwayss thought you got a full round action in the surprise round.. so winning initiative would accomplish the same thing, because they are flat footed until their first action sequence right?
Just as simple core example, a 19th level rogue with the full TWF tree, boots of haste and rapid shot and quickdraw could toss throwing knives at some poor shmuck and do 8 attacks netting 8d4+80d6 damage (about 300) on some poor schmuck that is sneakable. But the odds of all those conditions being right aren't all that high.
I am rather sure you are mistaken. It entirly reloads for the next shot as a free action. No lever. This is not a repeating crossbow, it is a "quick loading" +1 magical enhancements.
You can make iterative attacks with it.
Hmm, Goliath Rogue (decent Dex, as far as they go because they have a -2 DEX) + Great Crossbow + Levels in fighter and Deepwood Sniper (would Disciple of the Bow Initiate count as well) = scary.
It's also 3.0.
And fully updateable to 3.5
fricot_1;
I am rather sure you are mistaken. It entirly reloads for the next shot as a free action. No lever. This is not a repeating crossbow, it is a "quick loading" +1 magical enhancements.
You can make iterative attacks with it.
It depends, on a hand or light crossbow, it allows you to reload as a free action (thus granting iterative attacks).
On a Heavy or superior though, it allows reloading as a move action (so you need either quick-loading or that special magically self-cocking crossbow in A&EG)
2 targetteer / 7 deepwood sniper / 11 Archer
Targetteer (dragon 310)
Deepwood sniper (master of the wild)
Archer (three arrows for the king, the archer's guide)
with the feats rapid reload and improved crossbow handling, reloading would become a free action ;)
also, using a great crossbow 18-20 / x 2
with improved crit
15-20/ x2
with deepwood sniper's keen arrow (reffers to projectile's not 'arrows')
would be 9-20 / x2 (i think as it's not making the crossbow keen, so shouldn't interfere with improved crit ... even if it does, its still 12-20 /x2)
so depending on how you want to interpret it, with the deepwood it'll become either 9-20 / x4 or 12-20/ x4
grab yourself a flaming burst crossbow: and that's an additional 3d10 from the burst every crit, which would be very often.
And with the reload being a free action, many shot / greater many shot/ rapid shot etc you're looking at a lot of damage
e.g many shot -> 4 shots in a round, flaming burst great crossbow, so each landed hit does minimm 2d8 +1d6 (+ any other bonuses you have), as we're using a crossbow we can take those points we have spent on st for the bow and put it into dex to maximise chance to hit. Lets say 4 hit out of the 4 (not that unlikely with such a high dex and all the profiencies etc). each has a 9/20 chance to crit, approx 1/2 so lets say 2 out of the 4 crit. Damage =
2d8 +1d6 + 2d8+1d6 + 4x (2d8+1d6) +3d10 + 4x(2d8+1d6) +3d10
= 20d8 + 12d6 + 6d10 which is on average 20 x 4.5 + 12 x 3.5 + 6x 5.5 = 90+42 + 33 = 165 per round, (greater manyshot would let you split this over multiple targets)... adding on targetter ability to add dex bonus and everything else.. and the numbers fly
The way i see it, the damage is a bit better, the range is better, but the deal-sealer is that 18-20 crit range *(also, as manyshot or rapid shot count as a single attack, you can cast spells that would apply to all of it e.g true strike)
i might have got some numbers wrong, but i think the idea is pretty good, what do you think?
, still, 12-20 x4 multiplier with flaming burst is nice large damageFor the other approaches...crossbows take two hands to use, and so do bows. The fact that you can fire them with one hand (unlike a bow) is extraordinarily hard to exploit (any scheme that involves reloading multiple crossbows, such as thi-kreen can be done equally well with bows). You need multiple preloaded crossbows and quickdraw, and ideally a servant horde reloading all the dropped weapons and replacing them where you can quickdraw them.
I was toying with the idea of using a Tensers Floating Disc, with precocked crossbows stacked on it and hung from the edges. Lets you pull out multiples a lot sooner and cheaper then buying Gloves of Storing. You'd still want the quick-draw feat obviously to grab them all quickly.
I was thinking an unseen servant or 50 would help a lot of these builds out. You fire a shot, drop the crossbow, pull out another one and fire again. Meanwhile the unseen servant reloads the crossbow (a rather simple task) and holds it up for you to grab.
Now use oontyex's buildn and have two great crossbows, for a world of pain.
Of course targetteer helps out alot, putting you well above the normal bowman, but thats "dragon magazine" and I tend to shy away from that stuff, especially since you said you wanted only Core and UA.
Problem is you need L3 arcane spells. Some kind of eldritch archer build might pull it off though (and also get flame arrow, energy substituted acid arrow, sonic weapon and be able to craft cold and lightning enhancements)
Arcane disciple (war) to get the BAB back up to snuff perhaps.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of crossbows and try to utilize them whenever I can. For rogues I even prefer them due to Telling Blow and Crossbow Sniper. Anyway, there wouldn't happen to be any rules on being prone and using the Hide skill? My DM has a small house rule where if someone fires while hiding and prone, the penalty for re-hiding goes from -20 to -18 (-10 to -8 with Concealed Ambush) kind of like being a small creature. Not game-breaking, but kinda fun. Anyway, this thread is a lot of fun. Crossbow Pride!
Not taking enchantments into consideration for now lets compare (in the hands of a medium creature):
Heavy crossbow: Ranged simple weapon:
50gp, 1d10, 19-20/ x2 120ft. 8lb, piercing
* will also compare both to great crossbow (races of stone): Ranged exotic weapon (as heavy crossbow is half the price of composite longbow, great crossbow is 1.5 the price of composite longbow, none equal, but this leys you compare on both sides):
150 gp, 2d8, 18-20/ x2, 120ft. 14lb, piercing
Composite longbow: Ranged martial weapon:
100gp, 1d8, x3, 110ft. 3lb, piercing
which i think is the most fair comparison between the bow and crossbow weapons (feats are a seperate issue, etc, this is just looking at the raw stats of it all) (similar cost, range and damage between the 3 weapons chosen)
Composite longbow Average Damage::
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 18/20 x 1d8 (normal hit) + 1/20 x 3 x 1d8 (crit)
average roll on a d8 =4.5
so, average damage = 18/20 x 4.5 +1/20 x 3 x 4.5
=0.9 x 4.5 + 0.05 x 3 x 4.5 = 4.05 + 0.675 = 4.725 (86% average damage from a normal hit, 14% average damage from critical hit)
Heavy crossbow average damage:
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 17/20 x 1d10 +2/20 x 2 x 1d10 (crit)
average roll on a d10 = 5.5
so average damage = 17/20 x 5.5 + 2/20 x 2 x 5.5
= 0.85 x 5.5 +0.1 x 2 x 5.5 = 4.675 + 1.1 = 5.775 (81% avergae damage from a nomral hit, 19% average damage from critical hit)
Great crossbow:
1/20 x0 (natural miss) + 16/20 x 2d8 + 3/20 x 2 x 2d8 (crit)
average roll on 2d8 = 2 x average on a 1d8 = 4.5 x 2 = 9
so average damage = 16/20 x 9 + 3/20 x 18
= 0.8 x 9 + 0.15 x 18 = 7.2 + 2.7 = 9.9 (73% average damage from a normal hit, 17% average damage from critical hit)
If you then factor in Improved critical, comp longbow 20 -> 19/20, heavy crossbow 19-20 -> 17-20, great crossbow 18-20 -> 15-20 and the gap between the bow and crossbow gets much bigger.
1. you got 10% chance to deliver 2x damage so the additional damage is 0.1*(dmg)
2. you got 5% chance to deliver 3x damage so the additional damage is 0.05*(2*dmg) ... just get the 2 out of there and you see its nothing but 0.1*(dmg)
... so it really DOESNT matter at all!
Only 18-20 is better because it is 0.15*(dmg), so your crit is improved by 33%.
19-20 x2 and 20 x3 are perfectly equal when calculated.
1. you got 10% chance to deliver 2x damage so the additional damage is 0.1*(dmg)
2. you got 5% chance to deliver 3x damage so the additional damage is 0.05*(2*dmg) ... just get the 2 out of there and you see its nothing but 0.1*(dmg)
... so it really DOESNT matter at all!
Just curious... What happens when you factor Improved Critical in? Do they stay equivalent or does one of the two become superior?
1. you have a 15% chance to hit with a 19-20 weapon (0.15*Dmg)
2. you have a 10% chance to hit with an x3 weapon (.1(2*Dmg) = 0.2*Dmg)
here is with improved crit:
Composite longbow Average Damage::
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 18/20 x 1d8 (normal hit) + 1/20 x 3 x 1d8 (crit)
average roll on a d8 =4.5
so, average damage = 18/20 x 4.5 +1/20 x 3 x 4.5
=0.9 x 4.5 + 0.05 x 3 x 4.5 = 4.05 + 1.35 = 4.725 (86% average damage from a normal hit, 14% average damage from critical hit)
Composite longbow Average Damage With improved crit::
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 17/20 x 1d8 (normal hit) + 2/20 x 3 x 1d8 (crit)
average roll on a d8 =4.5
so, average damage = 17/20 x 4.5 +2/20 x 3 x 4.5
=0.85 x 4.5 + 0.1 x 3 x 4.5 = 3.825 + 0.675 = 5.40 (75% average damage from a normal hit, 25% average damage from critical hit)
4.725 -> 5.40 = 14.29% increase in average damage due to improved crit
Heavy crossbow average damage:
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 17/20 x 1d10 +2/20 x 2 x 1d10 (crit)
average roll on a d10 = 5.5
so average damage = 17/20 x 5.5 + 2/20 x 2 x 5.5
= 0.85 x 5.5 +0.1 x 2 x 5.5 = 4.675 + 1.1 = 5.775 (81% avergae damage from a nomral hit, 19% average damage from critical hit)
Heavy crossbow average damage with imrpoved crit:
1/20 x 0 (natural miss) + 15/20 x 1d10 +4/20 x 2 x 1d10 (crit)
average roll on a d10 = 5.5
so average damage = 15/20 x 5.5 + 4/20 x 2 x 5.5
= 0.75 x 5.5 +0.2 x 2 x 5.5 = 4.125 + 2.2 = 6.325 (65% avergae damage from a nomral hit, 35% average damage from critical hit)
5.775->6.325 = 9.52% increase in average damage due to improved crit
Great crossbow:
1/20 x0 (natural miss) + 16/20 x 2d8 + 3/20 x 2 x 2d8 (crit)
average roll on 2d8 = 2 x average on a 1d8 = 4.5 x 2 = 9
so average damage = 16/20 x 9 + 3/20 x 18
= 0.8 x 9 + 0.15 x 18 = 7.2 + 2.7 = 9.9 (73% average damage from a normal hit, 17% average damage from critical hit)
Great crossbow with improved crit:
1/20 x0 (natural miss) + 13/20 x 2d8 + 6/20 x 2 x 2d8 (crit)
average roll on 2d8 = 2 x average on a 1d8 = 4.5 x 2 = 9
so average damage = 13/20 x 9 + 6/20 x 18
= 0.65 x 9 + 0.3 x 18 = 5.85 + 5.4 = 11.25 (52% average damage from a normal hit, 48% average damage from critical hit)
9.9 -> 11.25 = 13.64% increase in average damage due to improved crit
19-20 x2 and 20 x3 are perfectly equal when calculated.
1. you got 10% chance to deliver 2x damage so the additional damage is 0.1*(dmg)
2. you got 5% chance to deliver 3x damage so the additional damage is 0.05*(2*dmg) ... just get the 2 out of there and you see its nothing but 0.1*(dmg)
... so it really DOESNT matter at all!
Only 18-20 is better because it is 0.15*(dmg), so your crit is improved by 33%.
alien :
19-20 x 2
for M base damage = 0.85x M + 0.1 x 2M
= 0.85M +0.2M = 1.05M * 0.85 =17/20, 0.1 = 2/20
x3 for M base damage = 0.9x M + 0.05 x 3M
= 0.9M + 0.15M = 1.05M 0.9 = 18/20, 0.05 = 1/20
true, but ONLY TRUE *IF* the base damage is the same, which it isn't, crossbow have better base damage
also *
greater crossbow:
even with base damage M = 0.8M + 0.15 x2M
= 0.8M + 0.3M = 1.1M * 16/20 = 0.8 3/20 = 0.15
so crossbow still wins
especially the greater crossbow :D (so it really DOES matter in the end :P )19-20 x 2
for M base damage = 0.85x M + 0.1 x 2M
= 0.85M +0.2M = 1.05M * 0.85 =17/20, 0.1 = 2/20
x3 for M base damage = 0.9x M + 0.05 x 3M
= 0.9M + 0.15M = 1.05M 0.9 = 18/20, 0.05 = 1/20
Your formular is pretty weird dude.
The dmg is made from 2 parts:
1. Base damage = %Hitchance * dmg
2. Crit damage = %Critchance * %Hitchance * (Critmulti -1)* dmg[without additional damage]
So when we add both we get the final formular of %Hitchance * dmg + %Critchance * %Hitchance * (Critmulti -1) * dmg[wad]
We could now put the %Hitchance in front of that making it
%Hitchance * ( dmg + %Critchance * (Critmulti -1) * dmg[wad])
So with 10% Critchance and 2x we have:
%Hitchance * (dmg + 0.1*dmg[wad])
With 5% Critchance and 3x we have
%Hitchance * (dmg + 0.1*dmg[wad])
So we clearly see we deal the SAME damage with both weapons, if the dmg and dmg[wad] are the same.
The only thing my formular doesnt take into account is if you roll an 19 it may be an critical thread, but not enough to hit the AC of the enemy, but it would still be included in my formular. But for that you would need an IF function.
And for imp. Critical:
So with 20% Critchance and 2x we have:
%Hitchance * (dmg + 0.2*dmg[wad])
With 10% Critchance and 3x we have
%Hitchance * (dmg + 0.2*dmg[wad])
All the same
look at my post and tell me which part you think is wrong
You're both right.
different critical hit types are equivalent.
Different weapons deal different damage.
The conclusion that can be drawn from these two items is that, when selecting a weapon, critical range and damage should not be considered, as it is the damage range that determines how effective this is. (This does not apply to 18-20 or x4 weapons).
silly mistake[ thank you for correcting me
]but i still think that you haven't calculated it properly
Damage = chance to hit non crit x non crit damage + chance to crit x chance to confirm crit x non crit damage x crit multiplyer
let CH = chance to hit (a normal hit)
CC = chance to crit
BD = average base damage
M = crit multiplyer
average damage = CH x BD + CCx CH x BD x M
CH is situational, so leave it as CH (dex mod's, armour etc all bundles up into this ;) no issues as we're keeping it constant between all the situations and it's going to cancel out at the end) (also, we're just looking for higher than the other, so, as CH > 0, the rankings of each multiplied by CH is still the ranking)
really should be using instead of CC: max[CH,CC] as e.g a theoretical bow that has threat range 5-20, but needs a 15 or higher to hit in the situation, can infact only hit/crit on 15 or higher.. but for given purposes assume that CH > CC (can deal with other situations later :P )
* sorry this one is a little lengthy, compared under 3 situations: 1) attacking with each, 2) attacking with each with the improved crit feat, 3) attacking with each with the improved crit feat and 2 levels of deepwood sniper (master of the wild) which adds keen effect and raises multiplyer by 1
great crossbow (150gp): BD = avg(2d8) = 2 x 4.5 = 9
18-20 x 2
average damage = CH x 9 (BD) + 0.15 (3/20) x CH x 2
= 9CH + 0.3CH = 9.3CH
great crossbow (150gp) with improved crit: BD = avg(2d8) = 2 x 4.5 = 9
15-20 x 2
average damage = CH x 9 (BD) + 0.3 (6/20) x CH x 2
= 9CH + 0.6CH = 9.6CH
great crossbow (150gp) with improved crit and 2 levels deepwood sniper (keen arrows and +1 multiplyer): BD = avg(2d8) = 2 x 4.5 = 9
12-20 x 3
average damage = CH x 9 (BD) + 0.45 (9/20) x CH x 3
= 9CH + 1.35CH = 10.35CH
heavy crossbow (50gp): BD = avg (1d10) = 5.5
19-20 x 2
average damage= CH x 5.5 (BD) + 0.1 (2/20) x CH x 2
= 5.5CH + 0.2CH = 5.7 CH
heavy crossbow (50gp) with imrpoved crit: BD = avg (1d10) = 5.5
17-20 x 2
average damage= CH x 5.5 (BD) + 0.2 (4/20) x CH x 2
= 5.5CH + 0.4CH = 5.9 CH
heavy crossbow (50gp) with imrpoved crit and 2 lvls deepwood sniper: BD = avg (1d10) = 5.5
15-20 x 3
average damage= CH x 5.5 (BD) + 0.3 (6/20) x CH x 3
= 5.5CH + 0.9CH = 6.4 CH
Composite longbow (100gp): BD = avg(1d8) = 4.5
x3
average damage = CH x 4.5 + 0.05 (1/20) x CH x 3
= 4.5CH + 0.15CH = 4.65CH
Composite longbow (100gp) with improved crit: BD = avg(1d8) = 4.5
19-20/ x3
average damage = CH x 4.5 + 0.1 (2/20) x CH x 3
= 4.5CH + 0.3CH = 4.8CH
Composite longbow (100gp) with improved crit and 2 lvls deepwood sniper: BD = avg(1d8) = 4.5
18-20/ x4
average damage = CH x 4.5 + 0.15 (3/20) x CH x 4
= 4.5CH + 0.6CH = 5.1CH
so if we do it as ratios so we can take out the CH multiplier from each
average damage
great crossbow : heavy crossbow : Composite longbow
9.3 : 5.7 : 4.65
with improved crit
9.6 : 5.9 : 4.8
with improved crit and 2 lvls deepwood sniper
10.35 : 6.4 : 5.1
so, in all cases great crossbow > heavy crossbow > composite longbow
because of the lower base attack, the bow just can't keep up.
Also, if you then looked at e.g. flaming burst / thundering or some other ability that triggers of the crit and is affected by its multiplier, the gap becomes even bigger
Also, punctuation makes arguments more readable, and therefore, better.
i'll go through a little slower to keep it clear, coz the algebra can get a tad sloppy if rushed:
OK:
let CH = chance to hit for the given situation
CC = chance to crit
D = average base damage
M = multiplyer
(all as before)
* im treated all the numbers as fractions, not percentages for the sake of the probabilities
when you attack 3 situations possible: 1) miss (i.e. roll on d20 less than CH) 2) crit (roll ona d20 above or equal to CC then roll above or equal to CH to confirm the crit. 3) [this is where the tricky part come is] hit but not a crit (either roll between CH and CC or roll above/equal to CC then not confirm the crit.
so
to calculate average damage = av damage from non crit x chance of non crit+ av damage from x chance of crit
av damage from non crit = roll between CH and CC = CH- CC x D
|1| ------ CH ---[ here]--- CC ---|20|
+ nonconfirmed crit = CC . (1-CH) . D
|1| --- [roll here when trying to confirm]---CH--CC---|20|
= (CH -CC)D + CC.(1-CH).D = CH.D -CC.D +CC.D -CC.CH.D
av damage from confirmed crit = CC.CH.M.D
so, av damage= CH.D -CC.D +CC.D -CC.CH.D +CC.CH.M.D
=CH.D -CC.CH.D +CC.CH.M.D = CH.D + CC.CH.D.(M-1)
So, now compare the 3 weapons under 3 situations again (straight up, with improved crit, with improved crit and 2 lvls deepwood sniper (masters of the wild ;)))
umm, lets say, CL = composite longbow, HC = heavy crossbow, GC=great crossbow, IC = improved crit, DS = 2 lvls deepwood sniper
CL:
D=4.5 (1d8), M=3, CC=0.05 (1/20)
av damage = 4.5xCH + 0.05x4.5xCHx(3-1)=4.5CH + 0.45CH = 4.95CH
CL,IC:
D=4.5 (1d8), M=3, CC=0.1 (2/20)
av damage = 4.5xCH + 0.2x4.5xCHx(3-1)=4.5CH + 0.9CH = 5.4CH
CL,IC,DS:
D=4.5 (1d8), M=4, CC=0.15 (3/20)
av damage = 4.5xCH + 0.15x4.5xCHx(4-1)=4.5CH + 2.025CH = 6.525CH
HC:
D=5.5 (1d10), M=2, CC=0.1 (2/20)
av damage = 5.5xCH + 0.1x5.5xCH.(2-1) = 5.5CH + 0.55CH = 6.05CH
HC,IC:
D=5.5 (1d10), M=2, CC=0.2 (4/20)
av damage = 5.5xCH + 0.2x5.5xCH.(2-1) = 5.5CH + 1.1CH = 6.6CH
HC,IC,DS:
D=5.5 (1d10), M=3, CC=0.3 (6/20)
av damage = 5.5xCH + 0.3x5.5xCH.(3-1) = 5.5CH + 3.3CH = 8.8CH
GC:
D=9 (2d8), , M=2, cc=0.15 (3/20)
av damage = 9xCH + 0.15 x 9 x CH x(2-1) = 9CH+1.35CH = 10.35CH
GC,IC:
D=9 (2d8), , M=2, cc=0.3 (6/20)
av damage = 9xCH + 0.3 x 9 x CH x(2-1) = 9CH+ 2.7CH = 11.7CH
GC,IC,DS:
D=9 (2d8), , M=3, cc=0.45 (9/20)
av damage = 9xCH + 0.45 x 9 x CH x(3-1) = 9CH+8.1CH = 17.1CH
So comparing the three (all divided by CH for ratio)
GC : HC : CL
straight up
10.35 : 6.05 : 4.95
with improved crit
11.7 : 6.6 : 5.4
with improved crit and 2 lvls deepwood sniper
17.1 : 8.8 : 6.25
also note, only time composite long bow does more average damage than heavy crossbow is heavy crossbow straight up and composite long bow with improved crit and deepwood sniper.
sorry about the stuff ups in early posts, i think this is right, can anyone see any mistakes?
I'd use the soulmeld that gives girallon arms to use and reload 2 heavy crossbows.
Reread the soulmeld; the extra arms end in paws not hands and mirror the movements of your real arms, there is no way in hell you can reload a crossbow with them.
On another note, armbows are not a solution as they fire as a standard action rather than as an attack action.
A Fighter/Ranger/Rogue Based on TWF and quick draw to draw loaded light crossbows, fire, drop, quick draw another. It's not great without sneak attack, but you can sure pump out a lot of shots that way (Note: Fairly inaccurate shots).
I'm surprised that nobody else has run with this. Grab a Warforged Scout (optimal for Dex) and give him two Armbows
Fighter1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Light Crossbow), Psiforged
Fighter2: Weapon Focus (Repeating Light Crossbow)
PsiWar1: Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot; Vigor
PsiWar2: Precise Shot; Compression
Scout1: Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding
Scout2: Crossbow Sniper; Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge
Snip
I don't think crossbow sniper will work with repeaters, unless focus (light) counts for repeaters too.
There's one other factor:
The longest-ranged crossbow I know of is 120 feet. A Composite Greatbow has a range of 130 feet.
gnome scope from complete scoundral lets you attack from another 2 range incruments...
and the crossbow scope from quensstial rouge lets you snaek attack at the range of 90ft only costs a feat ....
I don't think crossbow sniper will work with repeaters, unless focus (light) counts for repeaters too.
I would think you would have to have focus ( light repeating crossbow)
I would think you would have to have focus ( light repeating crossbow)
Does anyone know the rule on this. A light repeater is a light crossbow, but it isn't THE light crossbow. Can it qualify for crossbow sniper feat?
I'm surprised that nobody else has run with this. Grab a Warforged Scout (optimal for Dex) and give him two Armbows (I realize you can't do the Two Weapon Fighting approach with ranged weapons, but it gives you another 25 bolts before having to tap into hit points, and it just looks cool :D ). Start with Fighter for the basic feats. A few levels of Psychic Warrior with the Vigor power gives him tons of temporary hit points to power the Armbows. Add in Scout for Skirmish damage, and finish with Exotic Weapon Master so you can safely fire without drawing AoOs and for a few fun tricks.
Psiforged Scout Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 6/Scout5/Exotic Weapon Master 3
Fighter1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Light Crossbow), Psiforged
Fighter2: Weapon Focus (Repeating Light Crossbow)
PsiWar1: Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot; Vigor
PsiWar2: Precise Shot; Compression
Scout1: Skirmish +1d6, Trapfinding
Scout2: Crossbow Sniper; Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge
PsiWar3: Offensive Prescience
Fighter3:
Scout3: Psionic Meditation; Fast Movement +10 ft, Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, Trackless Step
Fighter4: Body As Weapon (Warforged Racial Substitution Level)
PsiWar4: Hustle
Scout4: Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run
PsiWar5: Greater Psionic Shot, Moment of Insight
Fighter5:
Scout5: Ranged Weapon Mastery; Evasion, Skirmish +2d6/+1 AC
PsiWar6: Dissolving Weapon
Fighter6: Practiced Manifester
EWM1: Fell Shot; Close Quarters Ranged Combat
EWM2: Ranged Disarm
EWM3: Show Off
With Compression, you lose nothing due to strength loss, still keep your speed, get attack, damage, and AC bonus, you can hide with ease, and make an already funny image hilarious: A Diminutive living construct zipping around the battlefield, firing bolts from both arms in slow-motion... think of a John Woo-style Mega Man :D
Damage from each bolt varies, but a full attack volley while using Hustle to get your Skirmish dice and Offensive Prescience nabs you five bolts dealing 1d3+2d6+10+1/2 Dex damage each at a range of up to 60 feet. At full strength with Dissolving Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon, a single shot can deal 1d3+13d6+10+1/2 Dex damage. Not huge, but not too shabby, either.
This would not work anyway... as written it requires a standard action to fire ONE armbow.
Unfortunately, as stated here : Rules of the game : Two-Handed Fighting (Part Two)Ranged weapons you don't throw use most of the rules for two-weapon fighting; however, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and related feats don't apply to ranged weapons that aren't thrown.
also in the same article :Here's a summary:
Hand Crossbow: Treat a hand crossbow as a light weapon in a two-weapon attack.
Light Crossbow: Treat a light crossbow as a light weapon in a two-weapon attack; you also take a -2 attack penalty when firing a light crossbow one-handed. If you were shooting a light crossbow with each hand you'd have a -6 penalty with your primary hand and a -10 penalty with your off hand. A light crossbow is a light weapon, so the basic penalty is -4 for your primary hand and -8 for your off hand, and you must add the -2 penalty for one-handed shooting on top of that.
Heavy Crossbow: Treat a heavy crossbow as a one-handed weapon in a two-weapon attack; you also take a -4 attack penalty when firing a heavy crossbow one-handed. If you were shooting a heavy crossbow with each hand, you'd have a -10 penalty with your primary hand and a -14 penalty with your off hand. A heavy crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so the basic penalty is -6 for your primary hand and -10 for your off hand, and you must add the -4 penalty for one-handed shooting on top of that.
Repeating Crossbow: Use the rules for the crossbow's size. Even when the repeating crossbow's magazine holds bolts, you must use two hands to reload it.
Slings
You can fire, but not reload, a sling with one hand. You can't use a sling as part of a two-weapon attack.
So the answer is quite definitive. As much as I like crossbows, you can't really make it on par with a bow without DM fiat...
I hate to dredge up something from 2 pages ago, but I interested in finding out exactly where The Rules of the Game article found that rule.
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite
Dex 15.
Benefit
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Their is no mention of melee or thrown only in the feat description. All it talks about are "two weapons".
Next, the Combat Section for TWF in the SRD
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:
If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons
You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Shield Spikes
When added to your shield, these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you. You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Once again, nothing in this passage excludes the use of projectile weapons. The bolded part only uses the generic "weapon".
Finally, I checked the Hand Crossbow description
Crossbow, Hand
You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
The bolded statement shows that a Hand Crossbow is considered a light weapon for fighting with two weapons (rather self-explanitory). The Two Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalty for using two weapons, making no mention of Projectile weapons being excluded. Neither does the quote from the TWF description in chapter 8 of the PHB.
So, where is the rule that you can't two weapon fight with non-thrown ranged (AKA. Projectile) exactly?
In order for a crossbow user to gain an advantage over a bow users, the crossbow user needs to make more attacks every round. However, to do so, the crossbow user will probably need to use the TWF tree. Unfortunately, even with Rapid Reload, reloading a crossbow requires two hands; thus, there needs a weapon ability that automatically loads the said bolts.
Does such a mod exist? If so, from where does it hail and what is it called?
Why not just pick up an extra arm? One extra arm can service both of your crossbow reloading needs.
Why not just pick up an extra arm? One extra arm can service both of your crossbow reloading needs.
Spare Hand (MIC, 12,000gp) will do it. Have it hold one X-bow while you reload the other.
Xeph [For the bonus to saves and the 1 AC from +2 Dex]
8 [-2 Xeph] 6
14 [+2 Xeph] 16
14
8
18
8
Level 1: Psychic Warrior
Feat(1): Point Blank Shot
Feat(PW): Precise Shot ['cause you'll hopefully be in a party with a tank]
Power: Force Screen [both because of its duration and its early-on benefits]
Level 2: Psychic Warrior
Feat(PW): Zen Archery
Power: Prescience, Offense [Attack should be good enough that you won't need any more to attack at this point.
Level 3: Psychic Warrior
Feat(3): Rapid Reload [Moving and shooting isn't always needed, you should be able to get to this level without it.]
Power: Precognition, Offensive [It'll help at later levels, a small bonus right now]
Level 4: Psychic Warrior
Wis +1
Power: Precognition, Defense [Insight to saves stacks with the racial and resistance, plus it's altogether a decent ability at higher levels. Rivaling +2 AC and saves for 4 PP is animal affinity, which costs 3 PP, but only gives you +2 Dex to AC, sure the HP could be useful, but not as much as saves at higher levels]
Level 5: Psychic Warrior:
Feat(PW): Rapid Shot (In the end, for a crossbowman, it's better than Multishot)
Power: Wall Walker (Not quite flight, but it can get you out of reach, also beats Up The Walls feat - you don't need to end on a vertical surface.)
Level 6: Psychic Warrior:
Feat(6) Improved Rapidshot
Power: Body Adjustment (Heal self, most bow archers can't)
Level 7: Psychic Warrior:
Power: Concealing Amorpha, Greater (50% miss chance, pretty catchy tune)
Level 8: Psychic Warrior:
+1 Wis
Feat(PW): Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
Power: Vampiric Blade ('cause it doesn't specify melee weapons only.)
Given the limited books available, the only prestige classes you'd want to qualify for would be Warmind, which would be decent
Items: As soon as your rich enough, get a Monk's Belt, for the wisdom bonus to AC. All Phylacteries of Wisdom help as well. I'm not sure whether or not Bracer's of Archery count towards crossbows. Also go for the Darkvision goggles, since it's not worth wasting a power on having it yourself.
I like to think of this as my XTC build. You get all the weapon focus/specialization feats and ranged weapon mastery plus all the twf feats and imp crit.
The big weakness is mobility; only 5 stepping for this marauder. If someone gets too close though use your slam.
I'll get the details posted later from my other puter. I'm sure most of you can imagine the feat tree.
Warforged Rng2/Ftr15/ExWpnMa3. Pick up two armbows and go to town with twf and crossbow sniper. Make sure to pick up construct lock because elven archers just can't do that.
I like to think of this as my XTC build. You get all the weapon focus/specialization feats and ranged weapon mastery plus all the twf feats and imp crit.
The big weakness is mobility; only 5 stepping for this marauder. If someone gets too close though use your slam.
I'll get the details posted later from my other puter. I'm sure most of you can imagine the feat tree.
Interesting idea. I was planning something similar except that I was going to use 2 Hand Crossbows for the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (DotU). Free action reload, +1 to hit, and counts as Weapon Focus for purposes of requisites. I'd end up using a Spare Hand (MIC) to free up a hand for reloading (transferring an object to or from the Spare Hand is a free action).
One thing though: get rid of Fighter 15. "Thou shalt not take an odd number of Fighter levels, unless that number is 1" (paraphrased from the 10 Optimization Commandments)
Interesting idea. I was planning something similar except that I was going to use 2 Hand Crossbows for the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (DotU). Free action reload, +1 to hit, and counts as Weapon Focus for purposes of requisites. I'd end up using a Spare Hand (MIC) to free up a hand for reloading (transferring an object to or from the Spare Hand is a free action).
What does (DotU) stand for?
Here is my take on a dual weilding warforged:
XTC
Rng4/Ftr14/ExWpnMa2
This works well with the following list of feats:
Rng1)Point Blank Shot, Track
Ftr1)[Warforged Substitution]Battle Hardened
Ftr2)[Warforged Substitution]Construct Lock, Precise Shot
Ftr4)[Warforged Substitution]Body as Weapon
Rng2)Rapid Shot, Exotic Weapon
Ftr6)Weapon Focus
9)Weapon Specialization
Ftr8)Greater Weapon Focus
Ftr10)Ranged Weapon Mastery, Crossbow Sniper
Ftr12)Greater Weapon Specialization
15)Two Weapon Fighting
Ftr14)Improved Two Weapon Fighting
ExWpn1)Close Quarter
ExWpn2)Ranged Disarm, Improved Critical
Rng3)Endurance!?!
Rng4){Champion of the Wild}Greater Two Weapon Fighting
TWF comes in late because of the horrible expense of armbows. Your big problem is will saves which is why I've kicked around a version with the Eldeen ranger because the sect abilities can bail you out of some will saves. Also the Hated Foe ability allows you to get back your crits against constructs, elementals, plants, and undead. Make sure to take one of those as your favored enemy, beings immune to crits are bad, bad, _hate them_.
I might need to start a new thread for optimizing this...
What happens if a warlock shows up? Or anything else with a DR better than /magic?
If your target has say, DR 10/cold iron. The archer changes the type of arrow on every shot, while the chaingunguy is stuck using the same preloaded ammo over and over again. Which actually leads to the crossbow user being a lot less effective to demons & devils unless they pick up holy on their cross bows.
What is the cost of having 8 +3 weapons?
Weapon cost: Varies (say repeating heavy crossbow for 400gp)
Masterwork: +300gp
The value of a +3 enchantment (+1 holy weapon): +18,000gp
18,700gp per, which makes 149,600gp for all the weapons.
Enough to buy a +8 weapon and still have gold left over.
Soo.. Humm, +5 splitting composite longbow sounds good. It even doubles the attacks the archery does, and stacks with things like snap kick & haste.
Having snap kick + 16 BAB + splitting = 10 attacks, with two hands. Trikeen have how many arms? 6? That’s 30 attacks per round not counting things like haste/speed or bracers of blinding strike or (if possible) raging mongoose. The extra GP left over can go to picking up 100 or so +1 acidic screaming cold iron/silver arrows, for potentially +30d6 acid & +30d6 sonic damage.
Of course the chaingunguy can buy the splitting enchantment on his weapons. Too bad it costs his family's soul's worth in gold...Twice over...
Cost: One feat, almost the same gp as the chaingunguy.
Gain: +4 more to attacks, str to damage, +4 more damage with each shot, spare gold was spent to match the chaingunguy's cost was enough to add another 210 damage to output, the ability to change arrows on the fly to overcome DR, and all that freedom of choice granted by not having to spend a feat and gold to make your crossbow work like a bow.
So what is the counter to this? (DR/metal & a bow is cheaper)
What does (DotU) stand for?
DotU=Drow of the Underdark.
Skipped the last few pages so forgive me if this was covered.
What happens if a warlock shows up? Or anything else with a DR better than /magic?
If your target has say, DR 10/cold iron. The archer changes the type of arrow on every shot, while the chaingunguy is stuck using the same preloaded ammo over and over again. Which actually leads to the crossbow user being a lot less effective to demons & devils unless they pick up holy on their cross bows.
So what is the counter to this? (DR/metal & a bow is cheaper)
Except that Hand Crossbows (not repeating Crossbows) can be loaded as a free action due to Hand Crossbow Focus (DotU). Just sub in desired bolts.
Edit: Arz, using the same level progression except for Switching Fighter 1 and Ranger 1, I got the following build for a Twin Hand Crossbow focused human
Race: Human
Build: Fighter 1/ Ranger 1/ Fighter +3/ Ranger +1/ Fighter +10/ Exotic Weapon Master 2/ Ranger +2
Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot, (Precise Shot), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Hand Crossbow
2. (Track)
3. Hand Crossbow Focus, (Crossbow Sniper)
5. (Weapon Specialization: Hand Crossbow)
6. Two Weapon Fighting, (Rapid Shot)
8. (Manyshot)
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. (Greater Weapon Focus: Hand Crossbow)
12. Ranged Weapon Mastery, (Improved Rapid Shot)
14. (Greater Weapon Specialization: Hand Crossbow)
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. (Improved Precise Shot)
18. Improved Critical: Hand Crossbow
19. (Endurance)
Items of Note:
2 +1 Splitting Hand Crossbows (can be enhanced further, if desired)
Spare Hand (MIC, 12,000gp)
Is manyshot required for imp precise shot? If not I'd drop it and Imp rapid shot for the two lvls of Exotic Weapon Master. Close quarter ranged combat really comes in handy since you can't move quickly and let loose. Down side is it puts you further away from weapon mastery.
:P Better watch out for poisoned quarrels in the back. For shame, stealing drow feats/tactics.
Snizor:
Is manyshot required for imp precise shot? If not I'd drop it and Imp rapid shot for the two lvls of Exotic Weapon Master. Close quarter ranged combat really comes in handy since you can't move quickly and let loose. Down side is it puts you further away from weapon mastery.
:P Better watch out for poisoned quarrels in the back. For shame, stealing drow feats/tactics.
Build: Fighter 1/ Ranger 1/ Fighter +3/ Ranger +1/ Fighter +10/ Exotic Weapon Master 2/ Ranger +2
Already have it. Manyshot is required for Improved Rapid Shot, unfortunanntly
.Yeah I know many shot is required for imp rapid but is it also a req for imp precise shot? I can't recall the name but phb2 has a feat that turns your ranged attacks into a 60' line, which is frankly tons better than imp rapid shot. I'm not a big fan of that feat, there has got to be a bigger bang for its buck.
Penetrating Shot (Feat) requires a standard action, not an attack action. Would be rather pointless for a TWF crossbow user.
No, Manyshot is not required for Improved Precise Shot.
Edit: One could go for a Rogue dip instead of the last 2 ranger levels, then take Craven (CoR) to add character level to sneak attacks (for 1d6+20 Sneak Attack)
I was really leery of the last two ranger because it takes you further from greater weapon mastery. The skills and saves sorted outweighed it for me. A rogue dip loses some BAB which is vital considering the penalties for TWF, Rapidshot, and using a crossbow one-handed. Plus sneak attack dmg doesn't multiply in a crit. The dmg bonus from feats on my XTC build comes to (half dex) + 8. Add on hitting a construct and it gets ugly.
However, it does provide proficiency in the Hand Crossbow, effectively giving a bonus feat. BTW, I was referring to the rogue dip for my Double Shot build. For your build, it would be far less desirable.
A possible progression for a Rogue dip varient:
Name: Double Shot Rogue
Race: Human
Build: Rogue 1/ Ranger 1/ Fighter 4/ Ranger +1/ Fighter +9/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Fighter +1/ Exotic Weapon Master +1/ Rogue +1
Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot, (Precise Shot)
2. (Track)
3. Hand Crossbow Focus, (Crossbow Sniper)
4. (Two Weapon Fighting)
6. Craven, (Weapon Specialization: Hand Crossbow)
7. (Rapid Shot)
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting, (Manyshot)
11. (Greater Weapon Focus: Hand Crossbow)
12. Improved Rapid Shot
13. (Ranged Weapon Mastery: Piercing)
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting, (Greater Weapon Specialization: Hand Crossbow)
18. Improved Precise Shot, (Improved Critical: Hand Crossbow)
So, the Archer has to pump points into both Str and Dex, whereas the Crossbowman can just focus on Dex. This should help a lot since the feat lets the crossbowman up his damage and hit at the same time.
I'd have to playtest this to see how it worked out though. But anyway, dual wielding light crossbows with this feat would most likely at least put them on par with each other.
Since a Quick Reload light crossbow takes a free action to reload it seems like it already includes a faster then normal reload even counting the QR feature. But if you add in Ghostly Reload from Races of Dragon, which magically cocks the crossbow for you, its my impression that it would get an even faster reload time.
A heavy crossbow with the QR SA takes a move action to reload. Add in Ghostly Reload and again it seems like you'd get a faster reload.
In several previous posts, it was determined that the Great Crossbow is superior to other ranged weapons, yet I can't help but comment on the fact that it is an exotic weapon, and thus meant to be more powerful than either martial or simple weapons. In addition, I believe that we aren't taking into account that normally, it takes a full round to reload. This can be brought to the point of a move action with the rapid reload feat, and further with magic special abilities , but both the gold and the feat could simply go toward making a comp. longbow that much better. The fact is that you still can't add strength, which is only 100gp/+1 bonus to damage. This was never figured into the previous calculations for average damage (which would be difficult due to random ability scores, though it is still definitely a factor, especially on crits).
In fact, if one is going to allow a comparison using the great crossbow, one might as well allow the greatbow from Complete Warrior, factor in Str., then see who comes out on top. Then you can figure in the likely amount of attacks each is likely to receive (the bow should end up on top, so long as the broken Deepwood sniper 12-20 crit. is not allowed, because in 3.0, that kind of stacking never resulted in number ranges that high).