Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lordaxion Jul 04, 2009 19:15:21	Hey. I think everybody knows why anybody comes to the CO forums, so I sort of intend to cut to the chase. I've been looking at all sorts of CO stuff lately, from the Beguiler handbook, to the Ultimate Magus handbook, all sorts, but I just can't seem to find something that meshes with what I want/need. The game that's coming up is trying to be that oh-so-vaunted but never quite played political intrigue game of D&D that you hear stories about, like the fountain of youth or the abominable snowman, but never really experience. The caveats are that the entire party is made up of at the very least some form of caster. I know we're looking at a sorcerer (who's going to PrC out into something), a cleric going into Master Alchemist, and another sorc/wiz. I want to do the whole epic controller archetype thing, but I keep waffling off Beguiler and looking at other classes because of the limited depth of the Beguiler list - while it has the capability to do what I want, it doesn't seem to be able to do anything else at all >_> Also, the fact that they can't learn spells not on their list is pretty punishing for a guy who's used to playing Wizards and Archivists. Also, the loss of Programmed Amnesia as a top tier spell, because it isn't on their list, quite frankly, sucks. Would I be better off trying to optimize an Enchantment specialized Wizard? The trade off in skill points for things like diplomacy and hide is pretty heavy. Is there a rational way I could sneak the best of both worlds of a wizard's spell list capability and the Beguiler's focus on taking people and having them do as he says, either through Charm/Diplomacy or outright Domination? The Beguiler seems just made for this kind of environment, but I worry about him being overshadowed by someone who just managed to grab Programmed Amnesia or such later on in life where the Beguiler spell-list starts to drop like a really heavy rock. If there's some way to abuse checks and all to get the capability to turn people's disposition to Fanatic (DC50 when already helpful, IIRC) that would be neat too... Enough rambling, here's the setup. Pretty much any WotC sourcebooks are legitimate, Dragon stuff has to go through my DM (Who is a pretty cool guy all in all). We're playing in Forgotten Realms, though shifted forward in time a fair bit. But as far as PrCs, feats, etc go, everything's good. The PCs are all Lawful Evil, no exceptions (we're one of the groups who can pull this off without having the party eat each other.) and the BoVD is open to us. Most races are fine with me, but I'd really like to avoid being 1) A bard 2) A gnome 3) a halfling if at all possible. Alright, if anybody's still here after my wall of text, I'm curious to see what these boards can make. I'm not looking for the next Pun-Pun, just something that can do a lot of mind-play while remaining viable elsewhere if need be.
#2 Wyvernhand Jul 04, 2009 20:07:31	Human Beguiler1/Conjourer4/UlimateMagus10 would be a good start. Has Beguiler skill list at level 1, and with a high int and the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny, you can keep up all your vital checks. Alternativly, straight Beguiler is pretty rad. Cloaked Casting is tons of fun when your enemies don't see your spells coming. Really nice when you NEED to get those Charm Persons off, and you'd rather make the save as difficult as possible. An alternative would be either Human Rogue1/Conjourer4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5 or Spellthief1/Conjourer4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5, again with Able Learner to keep your ranks maxed. The former takes Practiced Spellcaster (CArcane) to keep your CL up and gives you 8 extra skill points at 1, while the latter takes Master Spellthief (CScoundrel) and can sap the stength out of high level casters if needed. You can nab Divine Insight (Clr2, CDivine) as an Unseen Seer for a MASSIVE bonus to any 1 skill check you need at a time, with recasts being plentiful if you need em. Additionally, nab Hunter's Eye (Rng2, SpC) to add TONS of Sneak Attack dice to any attack, and hit people with RTA spells like Orbs or Rays. 12d6 Scorching Ray +10d6 Sneak Attack usually results in a dead bad guy, and perfect for 1 shot, 1 kill type intrigue assassinations. Invisible in, invisible out, and dominate anyone who causes you trouble. Would you like more details on any of them? What level are you gonna be starting out at?
#3 kell_kheraptis Jul 04, 2009 20:48:08	Going off Wyvern's idea, a Factotum 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Blade (or Knight Phantom) 6 gives 16 BAB/18 CL, nice sneak attack (especially with Hunter's Eye), nice skills for social intrigue, further boostable by the wizard's spell list, awesome protection for when **** hits the fan, and the capability to melee as needed (after being a proper GOD and making the enemy a joke to begin with). Taken from the Ultimate Assassin archive thread, from zorgling.
#4 dandu Jul 04, 2009 21:01:15	Rogue4/Thug Fighter1/ChameleonX
#5 lordaxion Jul 04, 2009 23:43:22	Huh, all the times I've seen Able Learner thrown around these boards and I hadn't thought of using it in a Beguiler/Wiz/Ultimate Magus build. Is it worth losing the abilities of the Beguiler to get access to the Wizard's spell list on the other side? Since there's very little MAD I'd be able to use both edges of the UM build, and there's so many spells per day on the Beguiler side there's a lot of chances for the Metamagic abuse, but there is that massive exchange of free Silent and Still spells, and the beguiler's DC increasers. And if I'm going to be doing either Wizard or Beguiler it makes sense to make Wizard the bigger class. I was also tempted by Beguiler/Archivist/Mystic Theurge but I'd think that would lend itself to more of a buffed up fighter with pets build than power behind the throne, just because of the way cleric spells lend better to buffs. EDIT: We'll be starting at level 3.
#6 dr_rocktopus Jul 05, 2009 2:39:05	If you want a truly different caster, may I be the one to recommend a psionic character? Specifically an ardent? I think they can cover a lot of this ground in really interesting ways, offer hitting power, sturdiness, and a new perspective otherwise unavailable. Crucially, they don't wait until you hit a PrC to start being.......
#7 lordaxion Jul 05, 2009 2:41:31	Not sure how he feels about Psionics, but I may look into the XPH myself. I think he's a member of the school who has the vehement hate for Psi, though.
#8 Weezel Jul 05, 2009 7:18:54	Maybe consider a changeling rogue1/wizard5/recaster5/fatespinner4 then finish it off with whatever you like that advances casting Will start out with huge skill points with your maxed int for 1st level, and recaster grants a bunch of social skills as class skills (bluff and sense motive especially). Fatespinner lets you max out sleight of hand so it's unlikely anyone will be able to see your spellcasting. With recaster you will get silent and still spells for free, plus extra metamagic effects including turning touch spells into rays (silent, sleight-of-handed, turned-into-ray, maximized Touch of Idiocy chained with a metarod makes social encounters a breeze). Aforementioned spell can be maxed, turned into a ray, silented, all for free with class features. Fatespinner also lets you mess up opponants saves or force the reroll when it's really crucial. Add in spontaneous divination for the 5th level of wizard and you have access to a HUGE list of good social/political divining spells, espcially some of the nifty ones that rarely see much play like Allied Footsteps, Guided Path and Enduring Scrutiny. Plenty of options to customize with various wizard variants and specialization choices (I like conjurer for abrupt jaunt personally). Hope that is of some help. *edit -- recaster also has expanded spellbook, adding Modify Memory and Glibness to your spellbook with this feature would add awesome social powers above what a wizard normally gets.
#9 lordaxion Jul 05, 2009 9:49:30	I forgot to mention I can't grab anything from the Eberron Campaign Setting, as 1) we're not there and 2) My dm is prejudiced against it! Well, after reading through the thread and thinking it through, I think this is what I'm going with. I've yet to decide if the Wizard side is specialized in Enchantments or not, though.
#10 Wyvernhand Jul 05, 2009 10:10:26	I think you are a wizard level short on getting into UM with the skill reqs... Yea, Spellcraft 8 ranks. That requires 5 levels. Thats why everyone suggests Beg1/Wiz4/UM10...if you could get in before then, everyone would.
#11 lordaxion Jul 05, 2009 22:16:50	Houseruled that you can get into the class if you meet skill reqs for the class on that level, so the build should be fine, AFAICT. But in general, yeah, you'd need to have Spellcraft BEFORE hitting the level. But even then - would I still be able to apply all of my UM class levels to Wizard?
#12 Wyvernhand Jul 06, 2009 11:15:39	If you take Practicied Spellcaster: Beguiler at or before level 3, OR were an Illumian with the Krau sigil, then yes, you could apply all your level ups to Wizard, and Beguiler would only receive level ups from the 7 levels that advance both classes spellcasting.
#13 Omen_of_Peace Jul 06, 2009 14:30:37	- UM is great but late-blooming. Also, the optimal thing to do is to ban Enchantment and rely on the Beguiler casting for it... but you clearly don't want to be several levels behind so you'll have two sets of enchantment spells. Not a big deal, just something to think about. - I think Beguiler is worth it for a social campaign, especially since you have other casters around to pick up the slack. You can pick up Modify Memory easily enough with Advanced Learning - juggle the PrC levels around to get it at level 17 if you want it badly (Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/X 1/Beguiler +13 would be the easiest - X being a fullcasting PrC). If you can afford to be evil Mindrape (BoVD) is soooo much better than Modify Memory. - If you want to go wizard, there's always the Enchanter ACF in UA that gives you Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive as class skills. It costs you nothing if you PrC out before level 5 (beware, some DMs notice that and take action), which basically means Master Specialist. See the Enchanter Handbook for the necessary info (Enchanter 3/MS 4/Mindbender 1/Wild Soul 10/MS +2 for instance).
#14 Balthanon Jul 06, 2009 15:39:59	Urban Savant should be nice for a political intrigue game-- among other things, it gets the ability to use Knowledge checks for diplomacy and a nice skill list with 6 skill points per level. Assuming your DM allows the knowledge (history) ranks alternative, it's fairly easy to get into. (One semi-useless feat payment.)
#15 lordaxion Jul 07, 2009 0:58:54	Well, among other things, we've got at least until not this weekend, but the next, to go. I don't want to be the uber guy sitting at the table - if I did I'd roll a druid or something, haha - but I do want to be effective and have my own niche. One of the other players got permission from our DM to play a Succubus as a monster class form Savage Species, which means among other things eventually they'll have access to Charm Monster at will, so I'll have to do a lot more than just charm people and be friendly to carve out a niche. What they won't be able to do is have a large pack of drooling, Dominated servants or whatever - nor actually change memories in the high levels (actually, despite having Charisma Stupid, they'll never see high level casting because it's a 12 level monster class.) This has a large impact on me not wanting to go full Beguiler. It's a great class with more skillpoints than I have sticks to shake at, but its really good at only a few things - and poor or non existant with everything else. I feel like Beguiler/Wiz/UM is stronger than Wiz20 itself, because of the ability to swap spell slots from the Beguiler (which they get a LOT of) to freely apply Metamagic on the Wizard side, and vice versa. And the innate mastery of the low-level Beguiler spells plays well to the backstory/RP angle of the character, to boot (as well as not having to prepare occasionally useful spells that you wouldn't want to fill prepared slots with, but really come in handy when the time calls for them, like Dispel Magic and Expeditious Retreat.) If there was some way to make Mystic Theurge a viable class I'd probabaly consider that as Archivist/Wizard/MT/ETC (Our party at current has no divine magic), but as far as I can tell you just lose too much - with UM I basically trade a level of Wizard casting for eight levels of Beguiler casting, a truckload of starting skillpoints, Trapfinding, the ability to burn the huge numbers of slots beguilers get for Metamagics... it seems very win-win. And our party is all Lawful Evil, and yes I am looking at Mindrape from the BoVD with greedy eyes.
#16 Omen_of_Peace Jul 07, 2009 4:57:44	I feel like Beguiler/Wiz/UM is stronger than Wiz20 itself, because of the ability to swap spell slots from the Beguiler (which they get a LOT of) to freely apply Metamagic on the Wizard side, and vice versa. And the innate mastery of the low-level Beguiler spells plays well to the backstory/RP angle of the character, to boot (as well as not having to prepare occasionally useful spells that you wouldn't want to fill prepared slots with, but really come in handy when the time calls for them, like Dispel Magic and Expeditious Retreat.) In your case that's definitely true: I missed the houserule about entering PrCs early. You would usually lose 2 levels of Wizard casting (except with Illumians or specific builds) so the outlook would be different. Note that you'll only get Dispel Magic on your Beguiler side at level 12... And your level 13 bonus feat should be a metamagic feat. I'd go for Quicken - or Twin or Chain if you want to focus on save-based spells.
#17 lordaxion Jul 07, 2009 5:19:24	If the rule was standard and I had to lose two classes of Wizard, I'd probabaly still do it. It'd have late access to level 9 spells but I intend to be fully up on my UMD skills (Able Learner) so there's always the possibility of using anything I find, too. TBH if I could nudge my DM into letting my Beguiler research spells of the Enchantment and Illusion schools and add to his repritore I'd probabaly go BeguilerX/mindbender1/beguiler19 or something. I feel like the inability to go fetch spells from all of the splatbooks is pretty hampering in a campaign full of casters - hence the Wizard side. I may see about that - it seems like it's something that's pretty viable. And then I wouldn't have to be so concerned about getting the best of both worlds. I hadn't even thought of that as being the real reason I wanted to go Wizard. Also, I appreciate the CO boards so much more now having made a post. It's been interesting reading, but the fact that there are people willing to mathematically squeeze points out of other people's characters make you pretty cool guys. Cookies all around.
#18 Omen_of_Peace Jul 07, 2009 5:33:18	UM has UMD as a class skill already. ;) I definitely see what you mean. The Beguiler I'm playing has switched some spells from its spell list - thank the universe for flexible DMs ! - and it's better that way, more personalized (for instance I've swapped Spymaster's Coin (CS) in - it fits her role as an informant quite well).
#19 lordaxion Jul 07, 2009 6:05:56	Right, right. >_<