A DM's Dilemma - III - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A DM's Dilemma - III

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dowjin
Feb 12, 2009 1:16:54 This is for 3.5

I've decided that the best route for making a single-creature encounter that's optimized and can scare the party is to make a mini-boss out of a Druid. The nature of the encounter will allow me to justify targeting the other optimized members of the group as the biggest threats, while still giving the un-optimized members plenty of actions left unmolested to contribute.

The idea is to wild shape into something ferocious and see how much magical gear he can still apply to himself, and how many useful spells he can still cast.

I'm going to go study errata and begin building him independently. Collecting data specific to optimizing Druids in this thread should help everyone. Ideas, links, post as much or as little as you want. Once I'm done building him and applying the best ideas I find here, I'll post the completed build and all you DMs can feel free to use him.

The goal is ECL 9.
#2
unundindur
Feb 12, 2009 2:20:55 Well, since 1 vs. many is always a bad thing you can start by summoning "Noah's ark". Greenbound summoning goes a mile with that tactic.

A shapechanged druid with his full horde of peeps around is a sight to behold (Ace Venture 2 for cinematic trailer).
#3
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Feb 12, 2009 5:35:08 Your logic is exactly what brought me to my evil DM's Codzilla build - Yup, druid and cleric are your best bet for actually scaring a very optimized party without exceeding their ECL.

Depending on how tough a party you want to control (using fair methods that are sort of available to them) you use more or less DMM silliness 24/7 without allowing dispelling combined with high level WS'ing forms for combat and high level casting off both lists to top it off.

The problem later becomes trying to fit the bang-for-your-buck in 20 levels. I pulled all the stops in order to do a bit more than a character is supposed to be able to do. You probably will not need to pull all the stops.

Warning on the extreme level of cheese. Not everthing there will be useful, and the raw is very fuzzy. The sig stuff died after some stuff IRL (I'm not even a thread necromancer for my own threads).
#4
pithica
Feb 12, 2009 9:48:41 Kelpstrand (Spell Compendium) is your friend. Put him near the ocean, and he's almost sure to beat both the Touch Ac and Grapple checks of anyone in the party, even someone built to grapple. (A 9th level Druid should have a grapple of ~+24 at ECL 9, on par with a Gargantuan Centipede.) Unless the party is rolling in loot fat enough to purchase rings of freedom of movement (which they shouldn't be at 9, or you have a travel cleric, or something, you can use this one spell to remove one or two of the stronger members of the party for at least some of the fight. Pair that up with some BFC spells and/or summoned monsters and you should be able to really divide and conquer the group fairly easily.
#5
snex
Feb 12, 2009 9:50:47 honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters.
#6
jameswilliamogle
Feb 12, 2009 10:18:33
honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters.

3rd party material. Scares the bejeezus out of me when my DM uses it (I can't figure out what the heck I'm fighting... the unknown is always scary).
#7
reji
Feb 12, 2009 10:46:17 Make a druid gestalt with ranger2/master of many forms.
Awsome looking druid with ultimate shifting and all his spells.

Make him shapeshift into some nasty form like wartroll so he can handle a bunch of heroes in melee (houserule so he can look pretty human/elfish instead of ugly green.), take a druid variant so his pet is two levels higher, and let him ride a bigass direwolf with some matching weapon like ironwood lance that can change into quarterstaff/swordg
#8
ozgun
Feb 12, 2009 11:07:07
honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters.

I can scare a whole (quite) optimized party with a rogue. Don't even need to have one of the biggies, like Druid or Wiz. Get the item that grants you the template with HiPS and great bonuses on hide & MS. Get a Wand of Dimension Door.
Every round, get full sneak-attack in, and quickened-DD to another corner. You'll burn through some charges, but in the end, the rogue will get the big prize
As the DM, you can always make the encounter in a platform'd / stair'd area, for extra cookie to the rogue.

On a related note, everyone talks about the "top 5", but I only seem to know 4. What is the mysterious 5th?

Druid, Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, ?
#9
Krusk
Feb 12, 2009 13:20:50
On a related note, everyone talks about the "top 5", but I only seem to know 4. What is the mysterious 5th?

Druid, Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, ?

Druid, Psion, Wizard, Cleric, Artificer.
I always thought Archivist was near this group, I had heard top 6?

OP- Wild shape into something big and mean, then summon a few big and mean things, have the animal companio be something big and mean. Suddenly your pcs are fighting a lot of big and mean things, instead of a little gnome.

Kelp Strands to immobalize a couple of them, have the companion gaurd the druid while he is doing all this. Then He summons a couple of summon monster X's that are big and has them fight the not grappled dudes. Druid wildshapes now, and he and the companion go and beat on the grappled dudes.
#10
pithica
Feb 12, 2009 13:33:53
Druid, Psion, Wizard, Cleric, Artificer.
I always thought Archivist was near this group, I had heard top 6?

It's Archivist/Druid, Wizard/Cleric/Psion/Artificer. I call it, top two.

honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters.

I've killed whole parties with a single individual (and I suck). Numbers are (almost) meaningless when faced with superior (or at least advantageous) tactics. Even without better tactics, you're the DM, you control the world around them, it isn't that hard to put a little fear of that power into the party. It's not healthy to do it every game, obviously, but it isn't hard to do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dowjin Feb 12, 2009 1:16:54	This is for 3.5 I've decided that the best route for making a single-creature encounter that's optimized and can scare the party is to make a mini-boss out of a Druid. The nature of the encounter will allow me to justify targeting the other optimized members of the group as the biggest threats, while still giving the un-optimized members plenty of actions left unmolested to contribute. The idea is to wild shape into something ferocious and see how much magical gear he can still apply to himself, and how many useful spells he can still cast. I'm going to go study errata and begin building him independently. Collecting data specific to optimizing Druids in this thread should help everyone. Ideas, links, post as much or as little as you want. Once I'm done building him and applying the best ideas I find here, I'll post the completed build and all you DMs can feel free to use him. The goal is ECL 9.
#2 unundindur Feb 12, 2009 2:20:55	Well, since 1 vs. many is always a bad thing you can start by summoning "Noah's ark". Greenbound summoning goes a mile with that tactic. A shapechanged druid with his full horde of peeps around is a sight to behold (Ace Venture 2 for cinematic trailer).
#3 PlzBreakMyCampaign Feb 12, 2009 5:35:08	Your logic is exactly what brought me to my evil DM's Codzilla build - Yup, druid and cleric are your best bet for actually scaring a very optimized party without exceeding their ECL. Depending on how tough a party you want to control (using fair methods that are sort of available to them) you use more or less DMM silliness 24/7 without allowing dispelling combined with high level WS'ing forms for combat and high level casting off both lists to top it off. The problem later becomes trying to fit the bang-for-your-buck in 20 levels. I pulled all the stops in order to do a bit more than a character is supposed to be able to do. You probably will not need to pull all the stops. Warning on the extreme level of cheese. Not everthing there will be useful, and the raw is very fuzzy. The sig stuff died after some stuff IRL (I'm not even a thread necromancer for my own threads).
#4 pithica Feb 12, 2009 9:48:41	Kelpstrand (Spell Compendium) is your friend. Put him near the ocean, and he's almost sure to beat both the Touch Ac and Grapple checks of anyone in the party, even someone built to grapple. (A 9th level Druid should have a grapple of ~+24 at ECL 9, on par with a Gargantuan Centipede.) Unless the party is rolling in loot fat enough to purchase rings of freedom of movement (which they shouldn't be at 9, or you have a travel cleric, or something, you can use this one spell to remove one or two of the stronger members of the party for at least some of the fight. Pair that up with some BFC spells and/or summoned monsters and you should be able to really divide and conquer the group fairly easily.
#5 snex Feb 12, 2009 9:50:47	honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters.
#6 jameswilliamogle Feb 12, 2009 10:18:33	honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters. 3rd party material. Scares the bejeezus out of me when my DM uses it (I can't figure out what the heck I'm fighting... the unknown is always scary).
#7 reji Feb 12, 2009 10:46:17	Make a druid gestalt with ranger2/master of many forms. Awsome looking druid with ultimate shifting and all his spells. Make him shapeshift into some nasty form like wartroll so he can handle a bunch of heroes in melee (houserule so he can look pretty human/elfish instead of ugly green.), take a druid variant so his pet is two levels higher, and let him ride a bigass direwolf with some matching weapon like ironwood lance that can change into quarterstaff/swordg
#8 ozgun Feb 12, 2009 11:07:07	honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters. I can scare a whole (quite) optimized party with a rogue. Don't even need to have one of the biggies, like Druid or Wiz. Get the item that grants you the template with HiPS and great bonuses on hide & MS. Get a Wand of Dimension Door. Every round, get full sneak-attack in, and quickened-DD to another corner. You'll burn through some charges, but in the end, the rogue will get the big prize As the DM, you can always make the encounter in a platform'd / stair'd area, for extra cookie to the rogue. On a related note, everyone talks about the "top 5", but I only seem to know 4. What is the mysterious 5th? Druid, Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, ?
#9 Krusk Feb 12, 2009 13:20:50	On a related note, everyone talks about the "top 5", but I only seem to know 4. What is the mysterious 5th? Druid, Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, ? Druid, Psion, Wizard, Cleric, Artificer. I always thought Archivist was near this group, I had heard top 6? OP- Wild shape into something big and mean, then summon a few big and mean things, have the animal companio be something big and mean. Suddenly your pcs are fighting a lot of big and mean things, instead of a little gnome. Kelp Strands to immobalize a couple of them, have the companion gaurd the druid while he is doing all this. Then He summons a couple of summon monster X's that are big and has them fight the not grappled dudes. Druid wildshapes now, and he and the companion go and beat on the grappled dudes.
#10 pithica Feb 12, 2009 13:33:53	Druid, Psion, Wizard, Cleric, Artificer. I always thought Archivist was near this group, I had heard top 6? It's Archivist/Druid, Wizard/Cleric/Psion/Artificer. I call it, top two. honestly, i dont think you can scare any party with a single individual, unless they have really really bad characters. I've killed whole parties with a single individual (and I suck). Numbers are (almost) meaningless when faced with superior (or at least advantageous) tactics. Even without better tactics, you're the DM, you control the world around them, it isn't that hard to put a little fear of that power into the party. It's not healthy to do it every game, obviously, but it isn't hard to do.