A Druid going Epic - Where the @#!$ do I start? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A Druid going Epic - Where the @#!$ do I start?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
double_eagle
May 28, 2008 10:38:15 So Ive never played an epic character before, but thats soon gonna change it looks like. I've also never played a druid before, but I've taken this one from lv 1 to 16 now, so i've gotten pretty used to it...

But i don't know what the hell to do when I go epic. I'm hoping someone who know Druids a little better can help me...

(my character)
half-elf Druid 15/Fighter1
S14,D16,C16,I13,W22,Ch10
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, SpFocus(Conj), Augment Summoning, Exhalted Wildshape, Improved Initiative

Would I be better off taking a prestige class, or just sticking with Epic Druid?
If I Prestige, I need some suggestions. I haven't found any PrCs that look good to me. (I have access to MotW, BoED, and Complete series)

And Epic Spellcasting seems confusing and complicated to me... almost more trouble than it's worth.
Is it worth it? And if so, where do I start?

Thanks in advance for any help!
#2
phoenix00
May 28, 2008 10:50:56 epic druid

and we forgive you for doing that 1 fighter level ;)

epic spellcasting is worth it, just ask some people over the epic boards to point out some of the premade epic spells that are nice.
#3
double_eagle
May 28, 2008 12:55:02 Any PrC suggestions?

Just to compare to Epic Druid, if nothing else...
#4
sinfire_titan
May 28, 2008 13:42:00 Well, Epic Spellcasting is about as broken as this game gets.
#5
eepop
May 28, 2008 13:45:37 To know how to help, we need to know what you are doing with your druid.

Are you trying to be a melee monster?

Some of the shifting prestiges can be pretty good when you aren't giving up spell levels for them.

Are you trying to be a caster?

Heirophant isn't too bad, particularly at epic when you aren't giving up spellcasting.

Pretty much guaranteed though that your best bet at the minimum is to take all 20 levels of druid before you do anything else. At that point though, the prestige classes become a little more enticing.
#6
ShakaUVM
May 28, 2008 14:22:13 I have seen some very, very good epic druids in my campaign.

With BoED, you can cast Rain of Roses + Reverse Gravity for an 80' radius of win.

Lion of Talisid is also a no-brainer class to take. You get wild shaping, animal companion advancement, and pounce and haste. Since it has full spellcasting and good skills and saves, there's no reason not to take it, unless you really like having those extra epic feats. I'd take LoT, though, myself. Contemplative is also a worthwhile dip, and I personally love Divine Oracle, since evasion is one of the best abilities in the game.

As far as epic feats go, the entire epic wild shape like can be pretty broken. Gargantuan Wild Shape can be taken immediately at 21st level, and since you're a fighter/druid, I'm guessing this would be the best option for you. Colossal Wild Shape follows at 24th level, and Dragon Wild Shape at 27th (or Magical Beast wild shape, or Improved Elemental Wild Shape, depending on your preferences).

If you don't want to focus on becoming a dragon or an elemental monolith or a tarrasque or whatever, Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Sphere is probably one of the most broken things to take in the game, if you face enemy spellcasters a lot. It allows you to cast spells, but be immune to all magic.

If you want to be a primary spellcaster, take Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity, Automatic Quicken Spell, Improved Metamagic, and Multispell.
#7
logicninja
May 28, 2008 14:47:51 Reverse Gravity? that thing that doesn't work on any flying, teleporting, etc, enemies? C'mon.
#8
double_eagle
May 28, 2008 15:09:38
To know how to help, we need to know what you are doing with your druid.

Are you trying to be a melee monster?

Some of the shifting prestiges can be pretty good when you aren't giving up spell levels for them.

Are you trying to be a caster?

Heirophant isn't too bad, particularly at epic when you aren't giving up spellcasting.

Pretty much guaranteed though that your best bet at the minimum is to take all 20 levels of druid before you do anything else. At that point though, the prestige classes become a little more enticing.

Well, I'm going for the versatility of spellcasting and melee. I guess ive been playing as primarily a spell caster, but i make sure not to ignore melee abilities for when I do need them.

I am assuming 20 levels of druid already. Its what comes after that which i'm worried about. I probably will opt against focusing on wildshaping PrCs in favor of focusing on spellcasting.
#9
logicninja
May 28, 2008 15:23:41 Look up the "Greater Whirlwind" spell in the Spell Compendium.

Notice that anyone who is in the center of the whirlwind when you plop it down is denied your caster level in actions, with no save or anything seriously what the *hell* where they thinking.
#10
sinfire_titan
May 28, 2008 15:52:55
Look up the "Greater Whirlwind" spell in the Spell Compendium.

Notice that anyone who is in the center of the whirlwind when you plop it down is denied your caster level in actions, with no save or anything seriously what the *hell* where they thinking.

Now we see why spellcasting is overpowered...
#11
brainpiercing
May 28, 2008 19:23:51 Pump Spellcraft as far as it will go (with items), then create a Wisdom buffing epic spell that will last for over a day. You can easily get a +20-40 enhancement bonus on Wisdom like this, and it will be far cheaper than epic enhancement bonuses (it WILL probably cost you about one level in XP, though). Now either wear a monk's belt or take a level or two of monk.

Get custom magic items with at will spell effects. Especially Divine Power, Death Ward, Assay Resistance, Wraithstrike etc. Take a domain from Contemplative that grants Miracles, and then get Spontenous Domain Access (or Domain Spontaneity if you have a level of Cleric for turn attempts). Miracles rule because they can emulate 8th level cleric spells and 7th level of anything else without any cost other than from the emulated spell.
As a Druid you can take Divine Metamagic if you can get Turning/rebuking. Persisted Shapechange and Greater Visage of the Deity are nice.

I would recommend NOT focusing on Summoning too much in epic. All non-epic summons will be mere fodder with the possible exception of Elemental Monoliths for a while (so get Sonorous Hum somehow). I have no experience with epic summons (from epic spells), but to me it seems they are rather too expensive for their gain. I would probably begin retraining summoning feats around lvl 25 at the latest. Summons are still a very viable utility option, but rapidly lose their combat value in epic.

I have to say, though, while Druids are a very solid choice at all levels, they definitely lose to the Cleric in epic. That shouldn't deter you, though.
#12
Endarire
May 30, 2008 2:52:30 If you expect to face epic casters, take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) at L21! It's that important!
#13
logicninja
May 30, 2008 3:07:47
If you expect to face epic casters, take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) at L21! It's that important!

You need to be able to cast the spell.
#14
brainpiercing
May 30, 2008 5:05:13
You need to be able to cast the spell.

Epic feat: Extra Domain (Planning). Any divine spellcaster can take that feat, don't know about Deity restrictions, though.
#15
ShakaUVM
Jun 01, 2008 0:22:52
Reverse Gravity? that thing that doesn't work on any flying, teleporting, etc, enemies? C'mon.

Precisely.

You look at the CR50 Devastation Beetle and say, "Oh, it doesn't fly or teleport." And then you hit your I-Win button and wait for it to die in 3 rounds or so from the Wisdom damage.

Only if you're an idiot would you use it on a monster that could obviously get out of it.

It's basically a save or die where the save is the creature's mode of transportation. That's waaay waaay better than trying a fort save in Epic play. Devastation Beetles, for example, are +84 on Fort Saves (and +42 on Will Saves, if you try to dominate them or something).
#16
noldorforce
Jun 01, 2008 0:56:21 Get Natural Spell as your 18th level feat. Or sooner if possible.

*Ahem* That bears repeating.

GET NATURAL SPELL ASAP. It is that awesome, even and especially in epic (when you can layer it with Shapechange to become something ridiculous). Try running in with, oh, Earth Elemental [Wildshape] and Chronotyryn [Shapechange]. I'm sure there are other good combinations but that's a reasonable stalwart for double the actions and Earth Glide at the same time.
#17
double_eagle
Jun 06, 2008 9:13:39
Get Natural Spell as your 18th level feat. Or sooner if possible.

*Ahem* That bears repeating.

GET NATURAL SPELL ASAP. It is that awesome, even and especially in epic (when you can layer it with Shapechange to become something ridiculous). Try running in with, oh, Earth Elemental [Wildshape] and Chronotyryn [Shapechange]. I'm sure there are other good combinations but that's a reasonable stalwart for double the actions and Earth Glide at the same time.

Oh...
I left that off of the list by mistake. I do have Natural Spell - took it at 6th i think. Can't live without it as a Druid

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 double_eagle May 28, 2008 10:38:15	So Ive never played an epic character before, but thats soon gonna change it looks like. I've also never played a druid before, but I've taken this one from lv 1 to 16 now, so i've gotten pretty used to it... But i don't know what the hell to do when I go epic. I'm hoping someone who know Druids a little better can help me... (my character) half-elf Druid 15/Fighter1 S14,D16,C16,I13,W22,Ch10 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, SpFocus(Conj), Augment Summoning, Exhalted Wildshape, Improved Initiative Would I be better off taking a prestige class, or just sticking with Epic Druid? If I Prestige, I need some suggestions. I haven't found any PrCs that look good to me. (I have access to MotW, BoED, and Complete series) And Epic Spellcasting seems confusing and complicated to me... almost more trouble than it's worth. Is it worth it? And if so, where do I start? Thanks in advance for any help!
#2 phoenix00 May 28, 2008 10:50:56	epic druid and we forgive you for doing that 1 fighter level ;) epic spellcasting is worth it, just ask some people over the epic boards to point out some of the premade epic spells that are nice.
#3 double_eagle May 28, 2008 12:55:02	Any PrC suggestions? Just to compare to Epic Druid, if nothing else...
#4 sinfire_titan May 28, 2008 13:42:00	Well, Epic Spellcasting is about as broken as this game gets.
#5 eepop May 28, 2008 13:45:37	To know how to help, we need to know what you are doing with your druid. Are you trying to be a melee monster? Some of the shifting prestiges can be pretty good when you aren't giving up spell levels for them. Are you trying to be a caster? Heirophant isn't too bad, particularly at epic when you aren't giving up spellcasting. Pretty much guaranteed though that your best bet at the minimum is to take all 20 levels of druid before you do anything else. At that point though, the prestige classes become a little more enticing.
#6 ShakaUVM May 28, 2008 14:22:13	I have seen some very, very good epic druids in my campaign. With BoED, you can cast Rain of Roses + Reverse Gravity for an 80' radius of win. Lion of Talisid is also a no-brainer class to take. You get wild shaping, animal companion advancement, and pounce and haste. Since it has full spellcasting and good skills and saves, there's no reason not to take it, unless you really like having those extra epic feats. I'd take LoT, though, myself. Contemplative is also a worthwhile dip, and I personally love Divine Oracle, since evasion is one of the best abilities in the game. As far as epic feats go, the entire epic wild shape like can be pretty broken. Gargantuan Wild Shape can be taken immediately at 21st level, and since you're a fighter/druid, I'm guessing this would be the best option for you. Colossal Wild Shape follows at 24th level, and Dragon Wild Shape at 27th (or Magical Beast wild shape, or Improved Elemental Wild Shape, depending on your preferences). If you don't want to focus on becoming a dragon or an elemental monolith or a tarrasque or whatever, Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Sphere is probably one of the most broken things to take in the game, if you face enemy spellcasters a lot. It allows you to cast spells, but be immune to all magic. If you want to be a primary spellcaster, take Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity, Automatic Quicken Spell, Improved Metamagic, and Multispell.
#7 logicninja May 28, 2008 14:47:51	Reverse Gravity? that thing that doesn't work on any flying, teleporting, etc, enemies? C'mon.
#8 double_eagle May 28, 2008 15:09:38	To know how to help, we need to know what you are doing with your druid. Are you trying to be a melee monster? Some of the shifting prestiges can be pretty good when you aren't giving up spell levels for them. Are you trying to be a caster? Heirophant isn't too bad, particularly at epic when you aren't giving up spellcasting. Pretty much guaranteed though that your best bet at the minimum is to take all 20 levels of druid before you do anything else. At that point though, the prestige classes become a little more enticing. Well, I'm going for the versatility of spellcasting and melee. I guess ive been playing as primarily a spell caster, but i make sure not to ignore melee abilities for when I do need them. I am assuming 20 levels of druid already. Its what comes after that which i'm worried about. I probably will opt against focusing on wildshaping PrCs in favor of focusing on spellcasting.
#9 logicninja May 28, 2008 15:23:41	Look up the "Greater Whirlwind" spell in the Spell Compendium. Notice that anyone who is in the center of the whirlwind when you plop it down is denied your caster level in actions, with no save or anything seriously what the hell* where they thinking*.
#10 sinfire_titan May 28, 2008 15:52:55	Look up the "Greater Whirlwind" spell in the Spell Compendium. Notice that anyone who is in the center of the whirlwind when you plop it down is denied your caster level in actions, with no save or anything seriously what the hell* where they thinking*. Now we see why spellcasting is overpowered...
#11 brainpiercing May 28, 2008 19:23:51	Pump Spellcraft as far as it will go (with items), then create a Wisdom buffing epic spell that will last for over a day. You can easily get a +20-40 enhancement bonus on Wisdom like this, and it will be far cheaper than epic enhancement bonuses (it WILL probably cost you about one level in XP, though). Now either wear a monk's belt or take a level or two of monk. Get custom magic items with at will spell effects. Especially Divine Power, Death Ward, Assay Resistance, Wraithstrike etc. Take a domain from Contemplative that grants Miracles, and then get Spontenous Domain Access (or Domain Spontaneity if you have a level of Cleric for turn attempts). Miracles rule because they can emulate 8th level cleric spells and 7th level of anything else without any cost other than from the emulated spell. As a Druid you can take Divine Metamagic if you can get Turning/rebuking. Persisted Shapechange and Greater Visage of the Deity are nice. I would recommend NOT focusing on Summoning too much in epic. All non-epic summons will be mere fodder with the possible exception of Elemental Monoliths for a while (so get Sonorous Hum somehow). I have no experience with epic summons (from epic spells), but to me it seems they are rather too expensive for their gain. I would probably begin retraining summoning feats around lvl 25 at the latest. Summons are still a very viable utility option, but rapidly lose their combat value in epic. I have to say, though, while Druids are a very solid choice at all levels, they definitely lose to the Cleric in epic. That shouldn't deter you, though.
#12 Endarire May 30, 2008 2:52:30	If you expect to face epic casters, take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) at L21! It's that important!
#13 logicninja May 30, 2008 3:07:47	If you expect to face epic casters, take Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) at L21! It's that important! You need to be able to cast the spell.
#14 brainpiercing May 30, 2008 5:05:13	You need to be able to cast the spell. Epic feat: Extra Domain (Planning). Any divine spellcaster can take that feat, don't know about Deity restrictions, though.
#15 ShakaUVM Jun 01, 2008 0:22:52	Reverse Gravity? that thing that doesn't work on any flying, teleporting, etc, enemies? C'mon. Precisely. You look at the CR50 Devastation Beetle and say, "Oh, it doesn't fly or teleport." And then you hit your I-Win button and wait for it to die in 3 rounds or so from the Wisdom damage. Only if you're an idiot would you use it on a monster that could obviously get out of it. It's basically a save or die where the save is the creature's mode of transportation. That's waaay waaay better than trying a fort save in Epic play. Devastation Beetles, for example, are +84 on Fort Saves (and +42 on Will Saves, if you try to dominate them or something).
#16 noldorforce Jun 01, 2008 0:56:21	Get Natural Spell as your 18th level feat. Or sooner if possible. Ahem That bears repeating. GET NATURAL SPELL ASAP. It is that awesome, even and especially in epic (when you can layer it with Shapechange to become something ridiculous). Try running in with, oh, Earth Elemental [Wildshape] and Chronotyryn [Shapechange]. I'm sure there are other good combinations but that's a reasonable stalwart for double the actions and Earth Glide at the same time.
#17 double_eagle Jun 06, 2008 9:13:39	Get Natural Spell as your 18th level feat. Or sooner if possible. Ahem That bears repeating. GET NATURAL SPELL ASAP. It is that awesome, even and especially in epic (when you can layer it with Shapechange to become something ridiculous). Try running in with, oh, Earth Elemental [Wildshape] and Chronotyryn [Shapechange]. I'm sure there are other good combinations but that's a reasonable stalwart for double the actions and Earth Glide at the same time. Oh... I left that off of the list by mistake. I do have Natural Spell - took it at 6th i think. Can't live without it as a Druid