I won't try to sugarcoat things: the Shadowcaster has a very, very hard time competing with primary casters. I'd describe it as taking the worst parts of specialized wizard and sorcerer: few spells per day, a very limited selection of spells, and a mindbogglingly absurd restriction on PrCing and feat acquisition that try to steer the class toward unplayability.
Still, for those who want to play a Shadowcaster despite the difficulties, I hope this guide provides the information you need.
Important: Those wishing to make use of the Shadowcaster in spite of its notable flaws may want to consider the following proposed changes by the author of the class itself, which suggest ways in which the class can be brought up in power (to come at least into some sort of comparability with normal spellcasters):
The Proposed Fix
Mouseferatu (The Author of the Class) wrote:
Rogue 1/Shadowcaster 5/Shadow (Arcane fixed) Trickster 10/Daggerspell Mage 4 by gorfnad the shiznit
Rogue 1/Shadowcaster 8/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 6 by nbhs275
Shadowcaster 5/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3 /Assassin 2/Arcane Trickster 5 by nbhs275
With twenty available paths, you can achieve a maximum of 10 bonus feats via the Shadowcaster class ability. Keep in mind this does not include paths learned via +1 mystery casting abilities gained from prestige class levels, and that this would mean that every mystery selection you gain would already be spoken for (20 levels, 20 mysteries, 20 paths).
So one of the first rules in PrCing: Learn new paths with Shadowcaster levels, advance paths with PrC levels.
So one of the first rules in PrCing: Learn new paths with Shadowcaster levels, advance paths with PrC levels.
Good catch.
Ebon Walls: Two lockdown mysteries which are nearly identical and one that functions as both a save-or-die and a pseudo-domination ability.
I especially like this one because it is a will save not fort or will then fort. Useful for taking out those big dummies that charge, and then having then kill allies.
I really like the line of shadows feat, especially after your friend traps them in a forcecage.
I especially like this one because it is a will save not fort or will then fort. Useful for taking out those big dummies that charge, and then having then kill allies.
Yeah, that mystery is one of my personal favorites. I also like Truth Revealed, despite the possible 'misleading' side effects, because of the variety of information you can gain via its use.
Now to get to work on rooting out the PrCs that are compatable with the Shadowcaster...
If this guide gets any attention, I'll go through the effort of finding which prestige classes a shadowcaster can qualify for, given the tight restrictions given on page 117 on the Tome of Magic.
Hmm... I've already been looking for PrC's that work with Shadowcasting, and really, there aren't very many that work. Here's a list (albiet far from complete) of classes I've found so far that follow the restrictions given in ToM:
Celestial Mystic (BoED)
Sentinel of Bharrai (BoED)
Skylord (BoED)
Ollam (CAdv)
Acolyte of the Skin (CArc)
Shapeshifter (OA)
Harper Agent (PGtF)
Harper Paragon (PGtF)
Martyred Champion of Ilmater (PGtF)
Disciple of Asmodeus (BoVD)
Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD)
Doomlord (PH)
Visionary Seeker (PH)
Heir of Siberys (EbCS)
Scar Enforcer (RoD)
Earth Dreamer (RoS)
Stormsinger (FB)
Dragonslayer (Drac)
Dragonsong Lyrist (Drac)
Platinum Knight (Drac)
Talon of Tiamat (Drac)
Fleshwarper (LoM)
Topaz Guardian (LoM)
This should be a nice start in the search, but I'm sure there are more in the books I have but haven't checked yet, and plenty more in the various books I don't have access to.
Important to note is I didn't include classes that have untyped spellcasting progression but had typed (or otherwise very difficult) requirements, like the Alienist or Elemental Savant, for example. The ones I have here are basically the ones that straight-up work.
-Divine Oracle (Complete Divine)
-Cyran Avenger (Five Nations)
-Heir of Siberys (Eberron Campaign Setting)
-Master of Yuirwood (Unapprochable East) [Not sure on this one, don't have the book right now]
-Doomlord (Manual of the Planes) [Not sure on this one either, same reason]
-Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy)
-Acolyte of the Skin (Complete Arcane)
-Alienist (Complete Arcane) [I think? Can you cast enough summon spells?]
-Thaumaturgist (DMG) [Only as a Noctumancer with Arcane Displine (Summoning Domain) or if the Mystic Theurge with Divine]
-Loremaster (DMG) [Just barely as a pure shadowcaster, or as a Noctumancer]
-Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) [See Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge]
That's all I can think of right now. Both the Mystic Theurge and Noctumancer give you ways to get into some classes you normally can't enter, though it may not necessarly be an efficient way (though Noctumancer is pretty darn spiffy).
...and they're all up. Now, the next step is working out some effective builds and combos; Line of Shadow along with Earth Dreamer comes to mind.
Another question is whether feats like heighten spell-like ability, empower spell-like ability and quicken spell-like ability can be used with mysteries.
Finally, I have found dark stalker to be a great feat for shadow casters.
Cheers,
Inkubus
I was wondering whether shadow casters could take extra spell and apply it to one of their mysteries, after all some of them are cast as spells. That would make them a bit more versatile.
Well, seeing as you can take metamagics and such (though by the time you could use most of them, the spell has already become a spell-like), I'd say yes. The way I read it, you can learn any new mystery that can be cast as a spell at the time when you take the feat.
Extra Slot is kind of unclear though; do Shadowcasters have spell slots in the normal sense, or simply uses per day? (If metamagics can be applied to mysteries and they use higher level spell slots normally, you could likely argue that Shadowcasters have spell slots.) Even if Extra Slot isn't available, Favored Mystery is superior for initiate and especially apprentice paths.
Another question is whether feats like heighten spell-like ability, empower spell-like ability and quicken spell-like ability can be used with mysteries.
Sure, at least as long as the affected mystery counts as a spell-like at the time.
Finally, I have found dark stalker to be a great feat for shadow casters.
Yeah, that should work well for the sneakier Shadowcasters out there.
Later on I'll have to get around to formatting the first post to something better looking than a massive flood of spoilers...
At mid-levels Shadow Evocation seems nice, if only because you can choose from the wide variety of evocation spells out there. Dog ear those favorite Spell Compendium pages! I really like Bolster as a simple tank and self buff spell, plus its an entry level mystery, so it also helps round out the feats. I am thinking that the Black Magic path (warp spell and especially echo spell) is the type of spell that ends up better than expected in actual play (especially if your shadow caster isn't the only caster in the party). Shadow Storm is clearly a great blasting spell, but the two mysteries before it are subpar.
This is what I was thinking for my shadow caster (up through 13th). The focus is on filling the typical straightforward party mage (part blaster, party utility)
Ebon Whispers
Voice of Shadow (@1) --> Congress of Shadows (@3) --> Flicker (@6)
Eyes of Darkness
Bend Perspective (@2) --> Piercing Sight (@4) --> Killing Shadows (@5,@9)
Black Magic
Warp Spell (@10) --> Echo Spell (@11, @12)
Body and Soul
Bolster (@7)
Dark Reflections
Shadow Evocation (@8) --> Feign Life --> Shadow Evocation, Greater
@13: Dark Soul (? if your DC makes it worthwhile).
That's a bonus feat at 2nd, 8th, and probably at 13th. Not as many as you would expect, but that's because the better mysteries are buried in paths - as they should be. Craft Scroll seems like a good feat investment.
If you can take Extra Spell I think this list will grow. Its tempting to take a level of fighter or cleric to open up armored casting via Still Mystery. Or, alternatively, focusing on your apprentice mysteries to enjoy the supernatural casting, which also enables armored casting.
Does anyone know what the range of Umbral Touch is?
.
IIRC, range is "touch". Benefits from Line of Shadow feat (once again, iirc, book is not with me atm.)
However, UT lasts for something like 1 min/level -1 minute per successful attack. It also leaves you with one hand free. This spell screams "gish with me". I'm not sure you can persistify the effect, but you certainly can extend it. Combine this with Flicker, TWF and a class with good Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike progression for big melee fun.
Does anyone know what the range of Umbral Touch is?
Suprisingly enough, it has a range of touch. :P
The focus is on filling the typical straightforward party mage (part blaster, party utility)
The way the Shadowcaster is designed, you're going to wind up with some ultility mixed in with your build no matter what exactly its focus is.
Your build looks pretty solid to me. Killing Shadows is probably a better choice for the nuking role than Umbral Touch, at least in my opinion. Dark Soul leaves something of a sour taste in my mouth; not only is it mind-affecting and not only does it only allow a single attack against a single target in range, but the wording of the mystery is somewhat unclear on whether it is your or your target that gets to choose who gets attacked.
If you're looking for a little idea of where you may want to go with a nuker build (keep in mind this one is probably more offense-heavy than the build you have), here's one I posted in another thread of mine.
Nuker Role
Level 1: Bend Perspective (Eyes of Darkness 1)
Level 2: Carpet of Shadow (Dark Terrain 1)
Level 3: Piercing Sight (Eyes of Darkness 2)
Level 4: Black Fire (Dark Terrain 2)
Level 5: Killing Shadows (Eyes of Darkness 3)
Level 6: Relearn Killing Shadows (Eyes of Darkness 3)
Level 7: Warp Spell (Black Magic 4)
Level 8: Aura of Shade (Elemental Shadows 4)
Level 9: Echo Spell (Black Magic 5)
Level 10: Dark Air or Water (Elemental Shadows 5)
Level 11: Flood of Shadow (Black Magic 6)
Level 12: Shadow Storm (Elemental Shadows 6)
Level 13: Relearn Shadow Storm (Elemental Shadows 6)
Level 14: Truth Revealed (Eyes of the Night Sky 7)
Level 15: Prison of Night (Ebon Walls 7)
Level 16: Far Sight (Eyes of the Night Sky 8)
Level 17: Tomb of Night (Ebon Walls 8)
Level 18: Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
Level 19: Relearn Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
Level 20: Relearn Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
Level 1: Bend Perspective (Eyes of Darkness 1)
Level 2: Carpet of Shadow (Dark Terrain 1)
Level 3: Piercing Sight (Eyes of Darkness 2)
Level 4: Black Fire (Dark Terrain 2)
Level 5: Killing Shadows (Eyes of Darkness 3)
Level 6: Relearn Killing Shadows (Eyes of Darkness 3)
Level 7: Warp Spell (Black Magic 4)
Level 8: Aura of Shade (Elemental Shadows 4)
Level 9: Echo Spell (Black Magic 5)
Level 10: Dark Air or Water (Elemental Shadows 5)
Level 11: Flood of Shadow (Black Magic 6)
Level 12: Shadow Storm (Elemental Shadows 6)
Level 13: Relearn Shadow Storm (Elemental Shadows 6)
Level 14: Truth Revealed (Eyes of the Night Sky 7)
Level 15: Prison of Night (Ebon Walls 7)
Level 16: Far Sight (Eyes of the Night Sky 8)
Level 17: Tomb of Night (Ebon Walls 8)
Level 18: Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
Level 19: Relearn Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
Level 20: Relearn Consume Essence (Ebon Walls 9)
what sort of build didja end up using, if you dont mind my asking? your build thread slipped away into the mists of the forums
The one that I classified under the Mastermind role and the one that began to see development in this post. I have quite a bit of time before the build comes into its prime though, bad rolls or not. The statline I wound up with wasn't too bad: Strength 9, Dexterity 10, Constitution 14, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 9, and Charisma 16. In the end, I blame the dice for my feeling of utter uselessness.
what's earth dreamer from, if I may ask?
lastly, as this is the only shadowcaster thread currently afloat, and it is the "official" guide, I have something I've been wondering about long and hard, and cant quite figure.....
is the "unlimited fundamentals" an actual shadowcaster class feature, or would it be included in their spell progression? it seems that this would make a strong case for being single-classed shadowcaster, if it's so. just wondering, because it's very unclear to me, especially since they mention the ability to "re-learn" fundamentals. this could've just been to keep a feel of continuity between the fundamentals & mysteries, or it could be that if you arent shadowcaster 14, there's a good reason to re-learn a favored fundamental....?
any help is thanked heartily in advance!
interesting! going to go with heavy armor later on, or just going to go a more traditional caster route?
Traditional caster- the other players are both melee-heavy types, and I don't want to crowd them out in combat.
what's earth dreamer from, if I may ask?
Races of Stone. I chose it because it fits with the earth elemental adapation of the MoS PrC.
lastly, as this is the only shadowcaster thread currently afloat, and it is the "official" guide, I have something I've been wondering about long and hard, and cant quite figure.....
is the "unlimited fundamentals" an actual shadowcaster class feature, or would it be included in their spell progression? it seems that this would make a strong case for being single-classed shadowcaster, if it's so. just wondering, because it's very unclear to me, especially since they mention the ability to "re-learn" fundamentals. this could've just been to keep a feel of continuity between the fundamentals & mysteries, or it could be that if you arent shadowcaster 14, there's a good reason to re-learn a favored fundamental....?
I'd say that, unless you take the Shadowcaster class out to level 14, you do not gain unlimited use of fundamentals. Both of the sections involving prestige casting levels don't mention anything else than new fundamentals and mysteries, and nothing of any gain in any other class ability.
The sections that I'm talking about
When advancing in a prestige class that states "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing casting class," a mystery user adds those levels to his mystery-casting class for the purposes of gaining new mysteries or fundamentals.
When a shadowcaster gains new casting class levels from advancement within a prestige class, this includes the knowledge of new fundamentals, and the transformation of low-level path mysteries... It does not including gaining bonus feats for learning new paths or any other shadowcaster class features.
4. shadow conjuration, lesser
5.
6. shadow conjuration, greater
It seems like its missing, no?
I'd say that, unless you take the Shadowcaster class out to level 14, you do not gain unlimited use of fundamentals. Both of the sections involving prestige casting levels don't mention anything else than new fundamentals and mysteries, and nothing of any gain in any other class ability.The sections that I'm talking about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcasters and Prestige Classes (pg. 117)
When advancing in a prestige class that states "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing casting class," a mystery user adds those levels to his mystery-casting class for the purposes of gaining new mysteries or fundamentals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige Class Casting Advancements
When a shadowcaster gains new casting class levels from advancement within a prestige class, this includes the knowledge of new fundamentals, and the transformation of low-level path mysteries... It does not including gaining bonus feats for learning new paths or any other shadowcaster class features.
It can fill a stealth role via class skills and perhaps child of the night, but it seems that it doesn't get enough uses of its abilities to play a primary arcane role or blaster. Is there something I'm missing?
Also, anyone notice that there is almost nothing effective a high-level shadowcaster can do against constructs and undead?
Also, anyone notice that there is almost nothing effective a high-level shadowcaster can do against constructs and undead?
They can use shadow evocations as well as controlled creatures. They also have a number of decent buffs.
They can use shadow evocations as well as controlled creatures. They also have a number of decent buffs.
What buffs?
My real question is if they can fill the role of a blaster mage at any point?
I bet if 2 people came up with 2 different optimized shadowcaster "blaster" builds for example theyd be almost identical as far as mystery selection since theres just not much there.
At first level, a Shadowcaster could use Arrow of Dusk for 2d4, up to 12 times in one day.
that is pretty good actually, considering you can switch one of your fundamentals out if you feel like it each level
At first level, a Shadowcaster could use Arrow of Dusk for 2d4, up to 12 times in one day.
Isn't that damage non-lethal?
I believe we just optimized humiliation
With this combanation you can either draw the wool over thier easy and go potshotting them while their distacted. OR, you can use your mysteries to make the terrain prohibiting and your quick speed and skirmish ability to make it imposible for your enemy to get to you.
MY suggestion for this is
Halfling rogue 1/shadowcaster 5/arcane trickster 1/SC 1/AT 4/SC 1/AT 5/SC 1/ 1 ?
For a total of rogue 1/shadowcaster 8/ arcane trickster 10/ 1 ?
Using a strong heart halfling, this gives you 12 feats , SA 7d6 on ranged attacks, and 18-19 caster level depending on what your final level is.
Mysteries and feats go like this
1st: improved initiative and extend mystery
2nd: carpet of shadow
3rd: voice of shadow/ still mystery, line of shadow
4th:black fire
5th:congress of shadow
6th:flicker / maximize mystery
7th:shadow evocation
8th:warp spell / quicken mystery
9th:fiegn life / enlarge mystery
10th:shadows fade
11th:unravel Dweomer
12th:greater shadow evocation / line of shadow
13th:summon umbral servant / quicken mystery
14th:ephermal image
15th:shadow plague / maximize mystery
16th:umbral body
17th:army of shadow
18th:shadow time / extend mystery
19th:life fades, greater / maximize mystery
20th: shadow time(if you gain a caster level)
between your skills, mysteries, trickster abilities and spells (via UMD) you should always be out of sight and able to hit enemies that can't see you.
A SC with caster lvl 13 and 5d6 sneak attack(see post above) can cast umbral hand on himself enhanced with reach mastery. So now, anyone within thirty feat is suseptible to a ranged touch attack for 10d6. Use your SC feats for metamagic and favored mystery. Spend your character feats on TWF and similiar feats. SO, with a 11 bab and 19 dex, you can make 6 touch attacks a round, for 10d6 each and it can slow them too. Best part? NO SPELL RESISTANCE!!
Oh, and for you who can't do math, thats an almost assured 60d6 a round, to anyone within 30 feat, that you threaten. Eat your heart out half-orge reach master.
tome of magic page 117:
Levels in shadowcaster do not qualify a charecter for prestige classes with the following entry requirements:
ability to cast spells of X level where the type is specified
Ability to cast a specific spell even if a mystery exists with a similar effect
arcane trickster requires both of those (3rd level arcane spells and mage hand spell)
Its a stupid parallel, just like the fact that psionics if a type of spellcasting, that functions alike normal spellcasting but is considered totally different, that instead of making erretra for it to be counted as spellcasting to enter PRC, they have to make new PRC that function the exact same way, except for name and psionics instead of spell casting.
I'll just do what WOTC does, make the Shadow Trickster. Exact same class, but you need 3rd level mysteries and Umbral hand.
Shadow time gets auto buff time and frees up some bonus feats(and gives more in fact)...just makes your damage less variable, all damage predetermined.
You deal 31 with each hit with 7 hits a round, thats 217. Now each of your extended umbral touch spells lasts 36 rounds, so it deals a total of 1116 over 6 rounds.
they have to fix the whole shadow magic thing with erretra or it becomes a pretty useless 80 pages. In my oppinion, if you can cast 3rd level arcane spells, no matter what the f*** its called, then you should qualify for anything that requires 3rd level arcane spells.
Its a stupid parallel, just like the fact that psionics if a type of spellcasting, that functions alike normal spellcasting but is considered totally different, that instead of making erretra for it to be counted as spellcasting to enter PRC, they have to make new PRC that function the exact same way, except for name and psionics instead of spell casting.
I'll just do what WOTC does, make the Shadow Trickster. Exact same class, but you need 3rd level mysteries and Umbral hand.
Even worse, they made it so the shadowcaster cant benefit from feats that effect spell-like/supernatural abilities the way the warlock can. I mean they went out of their way to make the class different from regular casters by giving you spell-like/supernatural abilities as opposed to spells and then you cant even take any feats other than the limited ones in the ToM to enhance them...
The more i look at the book, the more im begining to think that the binder is really the only real worth-while base class. The truenamer skill check game design is all wonky and ive yet to be convinced that the shadowcaster can do any one thing all that great (or even be a good jack-of-all-trades).
I'm waiting to be impressed by a clever shadwocaster build on this board since the flavor of the class fits perfectly into a niche in my campaign but im not holding my breath...
OR, you can use shadow caster's umbral hand and sneak attack for a super-effective ranged weapon.
A SC with caster lvl 13 and 5d6 sneak attack(see post above) can cast umbral hand on himself enhanced with reach mastery. So now, anyone within thirty feat is suseptible to a ranged touch attack for 10d6. Use your SC feats for metamagic and favored mystery. Spend your character feats on TWF and similiar feats. SO, with a 11 bab and 19 dex, you can make 6 touch attacks a round, for 10d6 each and it can slow them too. Best part? NO SPELL RESISTANCE!!
Oh, and for you who can't do math, thats an almost assured 60d6 a round, to anyone within 30 feat, that you threaten. Eat your heart out half-orge reach master.
how are you doing damage with umbral hand?
And if that common sense doesn't make sense to you, go shadow caster 18/ fighter 2. Still got 7 attacks, no SA but still can deal the damage and you got all kinds of fun with lvl 9 mysteries.
Shadow time gets auto buff time and frees up some bonus feats(and gives more in fact)...just makes your damage less variable, all damage predetermined.
You deal 31 with each hit with 7 hits a round, thats 217. Now each of your extended umbral touch spells lasts 36 rounds, so it deals a total of 1116 over 6 rounds.
thats some decent damage. the only thing drawback is that you have to stand right next to your opponent for the whole round for a full attack while a fireball can blast multiple foes from far away. I suppose with buffs like flicker it wouldnt be guaranteed suicide but its still pretty dangerous. Id like to find a good ranged blasting strategy that can compete with the sorc/wiz.
EDIT: just realized what you ment with your other post with the reach mystery. that deffinately sounds like a good plan. now to hook the shadowcaster up with a wand of reach umbral touch so he can pull it off more than once a day. Or better yet a bunch of Reach Mystery Metashadow rods....
Daggerspell Mage (CAdv) 9/10 casting (need sneak attack, o well...1 level of rogue compliments a shadowcaster quite nicely)
As a DM I would allow a change such as the Shadow Tickster fix...
Whisper Gnome:
Rogue 1 / Shadow Caster 5 / Shadow (Arcane fixed) Trickster 10 / Daggerspell Mage 4
This looks like a fun posibility
Hence,at fifth level, while your wizard is trying to drop a fireball without blowing up the party, you can flick away enemies with no danger to you. Best part, is that it can be made even more effective with combat feats.
Say,...hum...WHIRLWIND!!!!!
Using whirling with a quickened, reached, maximized, extended umbral touch, he can spend a round dealing 30 damage to every enemy within 30 feet. And yet again, this can be enhanced with precision damage(would you like to do sneak attack damage to everyone within 30 feet thats hostile. Oh, and just to make sure it gets through, no SR, its only a touch attack, it slows them, no reflex saves, and you will be able to wear armor while doing this.
So, why not go rogue 1, shadowcaster 8/assassin 5/arcane trickster 6.
You only get 14 shadowcaster , but thats enough for 7th lvl mysteries, and lots of Touching goodness. Plus 3rd level assassin spells( even more versitility) and 7d6 SA!!
Now, the question im asking and need the good people of the CO board to answer is: whats better? Whirlwind or TWF tree?
With whirlwind you get alot of damage to everyone within a big area quick, but with TWF you can throw lots of damger at one target. But, with this build you only have 10 bab, so you cannot get the normal 7 attacks unless you can manage to find a +1bab class with the skills needed to enter assasin.
OMG i just figured something out. When you gain a level of arcane trickster, it adds to a caster level of your choice, (it says existing spellcasting class).
So, why not go rogue 1, shadowcaster 8/assassin 5/arcane trickster 6.
You only get 14 shadowcaster , but thats enough for 7th lvl mysteries, and lots of Touching goodness. Plus 3rd level assassin spells( even more versitility) and 7d6 SA!!
Nice build; I really like it.
Now, the question im asking and need the good people of the CO board to answer is: whats better? Whirlwind or TWF tree?
I'm sure that the general view will be that TWF is better by far, especially with bonus damage dice (SA) in tow. WA is too circumstantial for my likes, seeing as you have to get swarmed by enemies (not a common occurance) to get the most out of it.
But, with this build you only have 10 bab, so you cannot get the normal 7 attacks unless you can manage to find a +1bab class with the skills needed to enter assasin.
The only thing that comes to mind is the Nightsong Enforcer (CV), but that requires evasion and also has higher skill reqs than assassin. If you really want to ditch the rogue level, you can just take ranks in Disguise as a cross-class skill (seeing as you can have 4 ranks by level 5) instead. Not to mention that, following the ridiculous "you can cast arcane spells, but not really" rules (which I agree should be removed or changed), you need to grab that one feat from CA in order to be able to cast Mage Hand for AT.
so you go Shadow Caster 5, taking the regional feat that gives cantrips(im not exactly sure of the name but its in the FRCS) and take 5 levels of assasin. So now you got a choice, either take 10 levels of AT(for a total of 8d6 SA) or take 2 AT,1SC,5AT,1SC,1AT,(7d6SA, but two extra feats)
I'll drop my whole build off later, i just to work it all out.
yup...im an idiot...but that seems to hlp here!
so you go Shadow Caster 5, taking the regional feat that gives cantrips(im not exactly sure of the name but its in the FRCS) and take 5 levels of assasin. So now you got a choice, either take 10 levels of AT(for a total of 8d6 SA) or take 2 AT,1SC,5AT,1SC,1AT,(7d6SA, but two extra feats)
I'll drop my whole build off later, i just to work it all out.
I believe the feat you're looking for is either Magical Training or Spell Hand. Either one of those will allow you to cast mage hand.
But really, tie the rods together like a bunch of dynamite and hold them all in one hand.
Another issue may be the number of times per day you can pull off Umbral Touch without a full shadow casting progression (when do the apprentice mysteries turn supernatural again?) without relearning it a bunch of times. You can always get a staff with Umbral Hand but i cant remember if you can use metamagic rods with staffs...
It would be nice to be able to do this (reached, maximized, empowered umbral touch) a comprable number of times per day as a blaster sorc/wiz's damaging spells.
SO, either you have a bundle of rods in your hand and cast the spell or whip them out as im casting the spell and put them back into a bandaleer when im done. Thing is, with the the bundle o' meta, you can't cast your second umbral touch(your hand is occupied upon completion) and would have to drop them if you wanted to cast a second copy.
But, we'll say that the bandoleer jazz is legal and use quick draw to get the spells cast.
Shadow caster 5/Assassin 5/Arcane trickster 3 /ASN 2/AT 5
This gives BAB 11, 8d6 SA and other goodies. Seeing as we can use the cheapest metamystery rods, we can remove the feats from the build. For feats you have
1st Point blank shot, rapid shot
2nd (extend mystery)
3rd quick draw
6th twf
9th Favored Mystery(umbral touch)
12th ITWF
15th combat reflexes
18th any
At lvl 20 switch your 18th level spell with GTWF. Thanks PHBII!
And for casting you have
3/3/2/0 from assassin and 6/6/10(7 of which is umbral touch)/4/4/4/1
And finally, full damage output. We can get our 7 attacks in a turn, dealling 31+8d6 each. so each round you deal between 273-553(average 413) each round. Each casting lasts 30 rounds(when extended) and will deal between 1170-2370(average 1770). With seven castings a day( total damage 8190-16590 average 12390) and plenty of secondary spells and ways to become hiden you should always be in position to SA even if you are Touchyness. Plus, you are either hard to hit(flicker +cloak of displacment+high dex ac) or a complete tool.
Im not exaclty sure if this is up to par with other gish builds and im sure there is some unheard of class that can help break this beyond belief, but i believe this build is a very flavorful and potent interpretation of the Shadow Caster.
You've missed one prestige class that I could find
Daggerspell Mage (CAdv) 9/10 casting (need sneak attack, o well...1 level of rogue compliments a shadowcaster quite nicely)
As a DM I would allow a change such as the Shadow Tickster fix...
Whisper Gnome:
Rogue 1 / Shadow Caster 5 / Shadow (Arcane fixed) Trickster 10 / Daggerspell Mage 4
This looks like a fun posibility
Sadly daggerspell mage requires an arcane spell caster level of 5, which apparently the Shadowcaster doesn't qualify for.
Although, I've seen a lot of Warlock/DSM builds, which I didn't think they could qualify for (and receive less benefit from), so I'm wondering, did they errata Daggerspell Mage at all?
Though, the Duskblade does that too. I wonder if the Duskblade ability, Arcane Channelling works with mysteries? It says "any touch spell".
So never dip out of shadowcaster for more then 7 non caster levels and get atleast light armor proficiency out of that class.
Sadly daggerspell mage requires an arcane spell caster level of 5, which apparently the Shadowcaster doesn't qualify for.
Although, I've seen a lot of Warlock/DSM builds, which I didn't think they could qualify for (and receive less benefit from), so I'm wondering, did they errata Daggerspell Mage at all?
I don't know anything really about the Shadowcaster because I don't have ToM...but Warlocks do explicitly have an arcane caster level and can therefore enter DSM.
For a Warlock, the benefit of Daggerspell Mage lies almost ENTIRELY in progressing invocations and sneak attack at the same time (well, and getting more skill and hit points).
with the feats your shadow elemental gets you can snag improved natural attack for extra damage and 2 others for whatever you want. then spend a move and a swift to direct your elemental to get +1d8 cold damage and an extra attack, then use a mistery as you see fit. then your elemental gets 4 touches for 2d6 plus 2d6 cold plus 1d8 cold for an average 22 damage
22 dex gets him 6 AoO's at 15' reach
AC of 16
hmm maybe giving him abberation blood and inhuman reach and extending his reach to 20'? idk, but still, his amazing elemental for just one feat, a few skill rank and one caster level lost? I'll take that any day of the week
Also, given the excessively strict wording in the ToM, I'd say that Extra Spell is quite useless to mystery users.
A bit of complaining
As for the success of my Shadowcaster trial run in my current campaign, things have been more than a little bit rough for my character, who just hit level 4 after our last game (the group only gets together once a month, so progression tends to be slow). Currently, I feel like a wizard who is stuck with a horde of cantrips and a single casting of Command and Mage Armor each day. Once I've run out of my limited useful spells, I'm stuck as a poor combatant. Maybe I built my character poorly, maybe I'm suffering from weak low-level caster syndrome, or maybe the Shadowcaster isn't that great after all. (My main point of contention here is that the Sorcerer of the party, who isn't playing a truly optimized build, runs circles around me in effectiveness every session.)
responce to complaining
This is something I feared when first looking at Shadowcasters. Their abilities seem no stronger then spells of an equivalent level (and at some points less so), but they know fewer of them then sorcerers, and can use them less often then Wizards.
Perhaps the point was to have a caster that didn't get so rediculous at high levels, but the result is a significant nerf at low levels, and at low levels a wizard doesn't need a nerf....
Perhaps the point was to have a caster that didn't get so rediculous at high levels, but the result is a significant nerf at low levels, and at low levels a wizard doesn't need a nerf....
From: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2957649&postcount=76
Okay, I've been giving this a lot of thought, taking into account what people here have been saying, as well as comments from other folks, and a few other RPG writers. The following alterations are what I'm currently considering. This is not official errata. This is not even unofficial errata. I may well change my mind on one or all of these, before I give my "final" stamp of approval on any tweaks to the class. (And of course, even once I do, it'll have no official weight.)
Now, this doesn't go as far as some of you have requested, but it's where I'd like to start. If some of you would like to volunteer to run a few playtest adventures with these changes in place, I'd very much love to know how it goes.
1) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Int. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)
2) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can. You must still have at least one mystery of any given level equivalent (1st, 2nd, etc.) before you can get a mystery of the next higher level within a type (Apprentice, Initiate, Master), but they need not come from the same Path.
3) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.
4) Allow the shadowcaster to swap out mysteries, like a sorcerer does spells, with the caveat that if you suddenly "un-complete" a Path, you lose a feat as well.
5) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.
(And BTW, the warp spell mystery shouldn't say that it allows a Will save. The caster level check determines success or failure.)
Now, be aware that I have not playtested the changes myself. I'm not running a game at present--my last campaign wrapped up a few weeks ago--nor am I currently playing a shadowcaster. I also haven't been able to devote too much time to considering them, as I've just wrapped up a huge gig for WotC, and am about to dive into a short one for Vampire, before (tentatively) starting another for WotC. So I'll be the first to admit, there might be repurcussions to these ideas that I haven't yet seen. I'm quite eager to hear any thoughts you folks have, and any results that might come up in play. As I've said before, the shadowcaster was my first attempt to design anything so fundamentally different from the standard classes, and I won't pretend it's perfect.
So let's make it perfect.
I want to try out a Shadowcaster, based on these builds (combined)
Shadowcaster 5/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 3 /Assassin 2/Arcane Trickster 5 by nbhs275
Rogue 2/ Rokugan Ninja 1/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 8/ Telflamar Shadowlord 6
Also, what are the epic applications of the Shadowcaster. How can we expand on the umbral hand thing past level 20? I know a lot of people don't like epic, but I know we are going into the epic levels in our next campaign.
Would you ever go Shadowcaster 20? / xxxx / xxx / xxx / xxx
Any advice welcome.
EXTRA MYSTERY [GENERAL]
Your studies grant you knowledge of an additional mystery.
Prerequisite: Character level 3rd.
Benefit: You gain an additional mystery. The normal restrictions of choosing a mystery still apply and it must be at least one level lower than the highest level mystery you can use.
At first level, a Shadowcaster could use Arrow of Dusk for 2d4, up to 12 times in one day.
Or he could use a longbow for 1d8 as many times a day as he wanted, provided he had arrows. Now, I HAVE been in one D&D game where the DM kept us so poor that arrows were a resource to be conserved, but that's far fro the norm.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3273239&postcount=2
I'll do you one better. I'll post the latest version, which has a few furthre tweaks from the one I posted a while back. It still needs playtesting, so I can't swear it's all going to work as written, but this where it stands now.
1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.
2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)
3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.
4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.
5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.
6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)
7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.
For what it's worth Ari Marmell (Mouseferatu) didn't much care for the idea, but was interested in seeing how it worked out. So far, there haven't been any playtest reports for the new approach posted.
Umbral touch is quick a nice spell. A reached, maximized, extended one is crazy. It deals 30 damage to anyone in 30 feet, and lasts for atleast ten attacks.
Hence,at fifth level, while your wizard is trying to drop a fireball without blowing up the party, you can flick away enemies with no danger to you. Best part, is that it can be made even more effective with combat feats.
Say,...hum...WHIRLWIND!!!!!
Using whirling with a quickened, reached, maximized, extended umbral touch, he can spend a round dealing 30 damage to every enemy within 30 feet. And yet again, this can be enhanced with precision damage(would you like to do sneak attack damage to everyone within 30 feet thats hostile. Oh, and just to make sure it gets through, no SR, its only a touch attack, it slows them, no reflex saves, and you will be able to wear armor while doing this.
Is it possible to use whirlwind with touch spells for real??? It seems overpowered, but not beyond the rules... Any thought about it?
Is it possible to use whirlwind with touch spells for real??? It seems overpowered, but not beyond the rules... Any thought about it?
Most touch spells are discharged the first time you hit someone so though you could whirlwind attack with a touch spell it would only effect the first creature hit.
I believe precision damage only applies to the first instance, but I'm not sure if whirlwind attack is included in the "volley-type" category of attack. (however, the only rules I can recall off hand appliy to spell effects, such as Scorching Ray.) In this case, I think you’d have to have all opponents flat-footed or flanked to pull of a whirlwind sneak attack, which could be done from a concealment effect or invisibility.
Most touch spells are discharged the first time you hit someone so though you could whirlwind attack with a touch spell it would only effect the first creature hit.
Yeah, but Umbral Touch isn't most touch effects. It persists for like 1 round + 1 round per caster level, and each use of the mystery decreases the duration by 1/2. You can get some fairly longer term useage out of the spell with the Extended Mystery feat, as well as with anything that ups your caster level in regards to that specific mystery.
The problem you are going to run into is getting all the feats you need to get Whirlwind while progressing enough in Shadow caster to get Umbral Touch as well as the feats required for reach mystery, etc. By the time you can pull this off, half of your encounters could potentially include True Sight, or something like Scent or Tremorsense, or what have you, which kind of puts a damper on your SA damage, you also could potentially have problems hitting higher level touch AC’s (assuming all your opponents aren't dragons or large creatures), as well as the usual MAD problems and all the complications with getting your initive up high enough to go first, reliably.
Going with a Shadow caster/Dusk Blade gish might have potential, but you probably couldn’t pass beyond Shadow caster 7. Dunno, have to think about this when I get home.
Halfling rogue 1/shadowcaster 5/arcane trickster 1/SC 1/AT 4/SC 1/AT 5/SC 1/
While earlier posts in the thread mentioned and lamented that Shadowcaster doesn't qualify for Arcane Trickester, I think there may be a second problem with the build, in that you need +2d6 SA to get into Arcane Trickster, which requires Rogue 3 (unless there was some feat or racial feature mentioned that I've glossed over.)
I think a comparable build might be something like
Rog 3/ Wiz 3 / Shadowcaster 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 / Arcane Trickster 8
Entry and progression into this build can be somewhat optimized, maybe going in with Rogue first for the skill points, and then at R3/Wiz 3/SC 3 going into MT for two levels then Arcane Trickster for 8, then finishing off with MT 1. The progression could also go something like Rog 3/ wiz 5 and then a 10th level, drop 3 wiz class levels for Wiz 3/sc 3, but if we're going for an Umbral Touch centric build, then that might delay access too long (and the power shfit from wiz 6 to wiz 3 / sc 3 might make things tricky.)
With Practiced Caster x2 (assuming your DM let's it work for Shadowcasters) then you should end up with 6d6 SA, mystery selection as a 14th level SC, with a caster level of 18, and arcane spell selection as a 6th level wiz with csater level 10.
If the Wiz levels are used to fill in utility spells and mysteries focus on concealment/movement/damage, I think this would yeild a fairly well-rounded caster/expert type character.
I think a comparable build might be something like
Rog 3/ Wiz 3 / Shadowcaster 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 / Arcane Trickster 8
Entry and progression into this build can be somewhat optimized, maybe going in with Rogue first for the skill points, and then at R3/Wiz 3/SC 3 going into MT for two levels then Arcane Trickster for 8, then finishing off with MT 1. The progression could also go something like Rog 3/ wiz 5 and then a 10th level, drop 3 wiz class levels for Wiz 3/sc 3, but if we're going for an Umbral Touch centric build, then that might delay access too long (and the power shfit from wiz 6 to wiz 3 / sc 3 might make things tricky.)
With Practiced Caster x2 (assuming your DM let's it work for Shadowcasters) then you should end up with 6d6 SA, mystery selection as a 14th level SC, with a caster level of 18, and arcane spell selection as a 6th level wiz with csater level 10.
If the Wiz levels are used to fill in utility spells and mysteries focus on concealment/movement/damage, I think this would yeild a fairly well-rounded caster/expert type character.
I think you meant to put in Noctumancer instead of Mystic Theurge, since this character can't cast divine spells. Also, you could combine the impromptu sneak attack with an Empowered umbral touch and the Reach Mystery feat, giving you 13d6 + 1d3 ranged touch attack with a thirty foot range (damage range 14 - 81 plus a slow effect). Maximising the umbral touch instead would result in 6d6 + 30 (damage range 36 - 66) which would be potentially far lower, but more consistent, damage. Assuming of course, that you can sneak attack with touch attack spells.
Also, I think that a Beguiler/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer would be pretty cool as well. It works thematically, plus you would gain the ability to cast spells (and mysteries with somatic components) in light armor, a few weapon proficiencies, madskillz lol, plus you could deny targets their dex modifier to ac against your touch range mysteries.
Afraid of the dark + phantasmal killer seems a good combination. Particularly if you use the Quicken Mystery feat plus a Rod of Lesser Empower Mystery, to increase the amount of wisdom damage from afraid of the dark.
Assuming of course, that you can sneak attack with touch attack spells.
as per Complete Arcane, p.86, weapon-like spells, you can.
I don't know if I's go with Rogue 3, but build looks really nice, not game breaking, but very playable and very thematic. I would never go with Arcane Trickster 8, rather 6 then Unseen Seer 1, X 1. you lose Impromptu sneak attack 1/day but gain more SA and some other goodies... but if you like it... sure, why not! ;)
I think you meant to put in Noctumancer instead of Mystic Theurge, since this character can't cast divine spells.
Actually tome of magic specifically states that shadowcasters 2nd level mysteries count as 2nd level spells for mystic theurge
Actually tome of magic specifically states that shadowcasters 2nd level mysteries count as 2nd level spells for mystic theurge
Probably for arcane though, I'd imagine.
Probably for arcane though, I'd imagine.
AFB but I believe it said something that implied it could fill in for either side
AFB but I believe it said something that implied it could fill in for either side
Actually, it says that mysteries count as the arcane casting prereq. In any case, the Noctumancer would advance both the arcane casting and the mysteries, plus it gives extra counterspelling abilities, so in my (not so) humble opinion, it would be a better choice than mystic theurge anyway.
Actually, it says that mysteries count as the arcane casting prereq.
I'll look this up when I get home, as my books aren't at work, but like Richmud, I also was under the impression that it could go either way.
The build is looking to maximize ranged SA, so counter-spelling doesn't really fit in. That said, I believe the entry pre-req's for Noctumancer (cast 3rd level spells, iirc) are a bit more steep, which would delay SA advancement as entry into Arcane Trickster, since you're looking at 4 additional class levels you have to fit in.
The halfling sub level works tho, thanks for clarifying that. Also frees up 2 more levels to play with.
Also, I think that a Beguiler/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer would be pretty cool as well. It works thematically, plus you would gain the ability to cast spells (and mysteries with somatic components) in light armor, a few weapon proficiencies, madskillz lol, plus you could deny targets their dex modifier to ac against your touch range mysteries.
I'm not sure, RAW, that you could
deny targets their dex modifier to ac against your touch range mysteries.
since Mysteries are specified as not being spells or spell-like abilities, but it could be that synergy works, especially if your DM likes it. In any even, the controller/dispeller thing would be cool, but if I'm going Beguiler, I'd rather go with Beguiler 20. Automatically beating SR at 20 is strong.
I'll look this up when I get home, as my books aren't at work, but like Richmud, I also was under the impression that it could go either way.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid not. The relevant text is on page 117, and it says mystery use can only be substituted in for the arcane spellcasting requirement.
The build is looking to maximize ranged SA, so counter-spelling doesn't really fit in, that said, I believe the entry pre-req's for Noctumancer are a bit more steep, which would delay SA advancement as entry into Arcane Trickster.
At the risk of sounding like a total jerk-off, the Noctumancer's requirements are almost identical to the Mystic Theurge's. Not to mention that the net result regarding sneak attacking is the same, since neither mystic theurge nor Noctumancer advance it. My point regarding the counterspelling was that Noctumancer just gave extra abilities whereas mystic theurge doesn't.
Prereqs for Noctumancer: 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), 6 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), plus the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level mysteries. So essentially, they're pretty much equal.
In order to qualify for mystic theurge, you'd need 3 levels of a divine spellcasting class on top of the 3 levels of rogue, wizard and shadowcaster, so your first mystic theurge level wouldn't be until 13th level at least. Those are three levels that you probably couldn't afford to lose. Additionally, the section regarding PrC qualifications states that if you take levels of cleric you'd need to worship a diety that granted at least one of the following domains: Darkness, Illusion, Knowledge or Magic.
That being said, you'd only have to take two levels of mystic theurge before you could qualify for arcane trickster, however every single one of your character levels would be spoken for and you'd only gain six levels of arcane trickster, giving you a lot less flexibility in the build and fewer sneak attack dice.
So we're comparing:
Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 2/Arcane Trickster 8 (which gives you one extra level to work with, I'd suggest another of Noctumancer unless you really like ranged legerdemain)
vs.
Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Cleric (or Druid)3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Trickster 6
Only the plus side, though, if you assigned your bonus caster levels carefully, you would end up with a divine spellcasting level of five, and eight bonus spellcasting levels to distribute between mystery-use and arcane spellcasting use. This would lead to greater flexibility in terms of casting ability (although your spell/mystery levels would be sharply limited), plus the ability to use third level divine magic. Also, since your turn undead ability would kind of suck you could take divine feats to compensate for it.
Unfortunately, you'd lose two levels of arcane trickster, and thus one die of sneak attack damage, which kind of defeats the purpose of this build.
You are, however, totally wrong on the MT qualifications.
RAW " Exception: Shadowcasters can qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class (DMG 192.) In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells. They must meet all other requirements for the prestige class normally.
In addition, if the shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spell casting requirement, he must be devoted to a god that grants access to one of the following domains:"
Note that in the bit that reads
In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
the 2nd-level spells are not specified beyond being spells, that is they can be arcane or divine.
So
The relevant text is on page 117, and it says mystery use can only be substituted in for the arcane spellcasting requirement.
is unsupported. I'd could be I'm over looking the bit of text, feel free to give me the first couple of words in the relevant sentence.
That said, it's purely academic at this point, as the Noctumancer is a better option.
I must have mentally inserted the word "arcane" into that sentence, since mysteries cast with somatic components were supposedly cast as arcane spells (which is why ASF affects them, I suppose).
Anyway, sorry about that (i.e. my) misunderstanding.
And now that I think about it, I agree with you on the Beguiler issue. The abilities they gain at higher levels actually make it worth playing straight.
So in conclusion, the build we're looking at would be something like:
Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 3/Arcane Trickster 6/Unseen Seer 2? (based on tl's post) or else just take the last two levels of Arcane Trickster instead of Unseen Seer.
Hmm... What kind of feats, spells and mysteries would suit this character? What do you guys think about the possibility of combining Sneak Attack, an Empowered (or Maximised) umbral touch and Arcane Strike? This would all stack, I think.
@anansi; I don't see areason it shouldn't stack. it looks good. :D
Rogue 1 (halfling sub level)/Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 3/Arcane Trickster 8/Unseen Seer 2 ?
Definately need the feat Reach Mystery, as well as perhaps Favored Mystery to get some additional uses per day for Umbral Touch in addition to the Empower Mystery feat. Perhaps also the point blank shot and precise shot feats. I'll break out PHB1 & 2 when I get home.
I've always liked the Flicker Mystery. Hadn't thought about Arcane Strike, but that's a good call to up the damage.
On a side note: the nice thing about Mystic Theurge working for a mystery user / arcane caster combo is you can go shadowcaster 3/wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/ and round out the last 4 with MT. Other builds may have more oomph from class abilities, but with Practiced caster type feats, this one does rather well as a combo caster.
Can you do a Wizard 3
and at lvl make it Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3 due to creeping darkness followed by Noctumancer at lvl 5?
Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer8
Living Greyhawk retires your character at level 15. With Practiced Spellcaster for Sorcerer levels, I could maintain my full 15 levels of casting. I'd miss out on 7th level spells but I'd gain a whole slew of mysteries and the fairly handy counterspelling ability.
I also think the orbs of shadow (acting like pearls of power, but for mysteries instead of spells) are pretty cheap for shadowcasters.
My Sorcerer is already Sorcerer5 with Draconic Heritage and Draconic breath, but I was going to use the "creeping shadow" rules for turning Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster2 and then progressing normally.
I'm not saying this is optimal, but it seems like the addition of 12 castings of apprentice mysteries and 6 castings of initiate mysteries (barring feat choices and pearls) might be an acceptable "recoup" of those lost sorcerer levels. I'd lose 4 7th level spells (the biggest loss) and 2 castings of 6th level spells as well as two fewer 6th level spells known and a few 5th level spell goodies.
The benefit is the really nice Fortitude/Will save progression of the Shadowcaster/Noctumancer levels.
It's arguable that the extra 1-2 6th level mysteries could be as useful as that 7th level spell.
I guess I should map the build out, but it seems like it would be a fun alternative.
Okay I am trying to remember does Precocious Apprentice work with Shadowcaster/Noctumancer?
RAW it might, but I have multiple DM's who rule both ways on that trick, some see it as too much cheese. The other problem with respect to a Arcane trickster build, is going that route limits you to 4th level Wizard spell selection, even if you up your caster level to 8th via practised caster, so you are losing a fair amount of utility, as well as access to Dispel Magic which effects the synergy with Noctumancer, since you won't be able to make use of the Capture Magic's Shadow Su ability.
What about just going with a noctumancer build? I'm considering this for my Living Greyhawk character:
Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer8
That works for a pure caster build, but previous posts have been more about a ranged touch attack / sneak attack specialist, using the Umbral Touch
to supply most of the damage. Personally, I dislike playing Sorcerers, but that's probably more of a flavor thing. I prefer more spells known that being able to cast one spell 3 or for times, as would be the case for Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer8 versus
Wizard 3/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer9
The trick to make it worthwhile, since you're looking at losing caster progression as a sorcerer, is to find a mystery or two from the lower levels that stands to be really improved by casting it as a Su ability. This does require some feat selection, but can be worth it.
RAW it might, but I have multiple DM's who rule both ways on that trick, some see it as too much cheese. The other problem with respect to a Arcane trickster build, is going that route limits you to 4th level Wizard spell selection, even if you up your caster level to 8th via practised caster, so you are losing a fair amount of utility, as well as access to Dispel Magic which effects the synergy with Noctumancer, since you won't be able to make use of the Capture Magic's Shadow Su ability.
It can be considered cheese, but if I recall RAW it is correct. Sure you have all the benefits of mysteries being cast like arcane spells (for the lower levels) but they are still mysteries. It is similar to how Wiz 1/Warlock 4 qualifes for Eldritch Theurge. EB is a spell like ability not a spell even though it has arcane spell failure.
If anybody wants to argue against it please do, I don't have time right now to check my books. If you wouldn't allow it, but don't have an argument RAW its okay to mention I wouldn't allow it, but don't put up a fake argument please.
That works for a pure caster build, but previous posts have been more about a ranged touch attack / sneak attack specialist
I htought the thread was trying to simply optimize the use of Shadow Magic on its own. I didn't think it was intending to be build-specific.
Personally, I dislike playing Sorcerers, but that's probably more of a flavor thing. I prefer more spells known that being able to cast one spell 3 or for times
And I'm the opposite. I prefer saving the versatility for Scrolls, Wands and other magic items and using the massive number of spells cast that a sorcerer brings to the table.
The trick to make it worthwhile, since you're looking at losing caster progression as a sorcerer, is to find a mystery or two from the lower levels that stands to be really improved by casting it as a Su ability. This does require some feat selection, but can be worth it.
What do you suggest for the mystery/feat selection? I'm currently poring over this myself. What would you consider a "real improvement" as to having something cast as a Supernatural ability?
If anybody wants to argue against it please do, I don't have time right now to check my books. If you wouldn't allow it, but don't have an argument RAW its okay to mention I wouldn't allow it, but don't put up a fake argument please.
Eh, I've seen that one debated to death in other threads, no need to rehash it imo. As for the fake argument bit, was that in reference to my comment about being limited to 4th arcane caster selection? That is a problem with going with Noctumancer, as all the class abilities are built around counterspelling or are predicated on the use of dispell magic or break enchanment, so I wouldn't say it's a fake argument, but rather an assesment of the use of that trick.
Sure it advances SA by freeing up class levels, but doesn't do a whole lot to support the use of Noctumancer over Mystic Theurge, since the character really won't be able to benefit from the Noctumancer class abilities.
I htought the thread was trying to simply optimize the use of Shadow Magic on its own. I didn't think it was intending to be build-specific.
It is, just gotten thrown by the tangent, my apologies.
What do you suggest for the mystery/feat selection? I'm currently poring over this myself. What would you consider a "real improvement" as to having something cast as a Supernatural ability?
Anything you don't want to have to worry about SR or counterspelling an/or dispel, such as illusions or save-or-die type effects. Also anything you want to be able to cast multiple times per day. You'll need Favored Mystery feat, iirc (afb) to get the Apprentice or Initiate level mysteries as Su, may have to take the feat multiple times.
You sorc's going to have a pretty focused spell selection, just apply the same
character-consistent themes or logic to your mystery selection. Mysteries come in a few flavors: save-or-die, blaster, movement and battlefield control,
there are some buff/debuffing mysteries as well. If your character is leaning to being a blaster, perhaps choose a movement or battle-control focus?
With SC 3/Nctmcr 8, you've got 11 total mysteries, asssuming you don't double up on anything to get additional uses per day. You're either going to get 1 6th level mystery use per day or a whole lot of 1st - 4th level mysteries, some as SLA's, some perhaps as SU's with Favored Mystery.
For example, The Arcane Trickster build benefits from taking the Umbral Touch mystery twice and getting it as a Su ability either by advancing shadowcaster level to the point where Apprentice Mysteries roll over to Su or by taking Favored mystery, as well as extended mystery. This way, you end up with something that can't be dispelled short of AMF, meaning you can't be disarmed at all, and can last through multiple rounds of combat and multiple combat encounters.
Another Mystery that benefits from being a Su is Flicker, since it allows you to basically dimensional door around a combat area, still contine to take standard actions, and cannot be interrupted.
New Errata http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=184955
Old Errata http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2957649&postcount=76
Old Big Thread http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167796
(The old threads were discussing how to better balance the shadowcaster)
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Additionally I got more evidence that the Precocious Apprentice Trick works.
The shadowcaster creator answering can a shadowcaster take extra spell.
Afraid not, at least by the rules as written. Mysteries function like spells, at least at first, but they aren't spells.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2965441&postcount=109
Thus a Wiz 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6
or
Sorc 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6
will give you 19 Shadowcaster casting, and 17th lvl arcane casting.
Additionally I got more evidence that the Precocious Apprentice Trick works.
The shadowcaster creator answering can a shadowcaster take extra spell.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2965441&postcount=109
Thus a Wiz 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6
or
Sorc 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6
will give you 19 Shadowcaster casting, and 17th lvl arcane casting.
Does Precocious Apprentice add another spellcaster level? Because otherwise you'd have a hard time meeting the requirements for those PrC's
A popular trick: It gives you a 2nd level spell -- people once tried to use this for Wiz1/Clr3/MTx, but the wording torpedoes it when used with divine spells. It works with things like cerebremancers and noctumancers and eldritch theurges, though.
Bingo it works with Psionics, Warlocks (and eldritch theurges), mysteries (Noctumancer), Binders (anima mage) and a few others. It doesn't work with divine spells and thus Mystic Theurge.
What about just going with a noctumancer build? I'm considering this for my Living Greyhawk character:
Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer8
Nothing from Tome of Magic is allowed in LG.
I think I'll try that Precocious Apprentice trick, Phoenix00. I'll probably use Sorcerer as the arcane spellcasting class, since that way I'll only have to increase my intelligence to 19 (for 9th level mysteries) and can focus the rest on charisma since it synergizes much better with shadowcaster levels in the long run. Unfortunately, I won't gain access to 9th level spells, but I'm willing to make that trade-off. Also, sorcerer's get that nifty metamagic specialist variant ability that is too useful to pass up.
Sorcerer works better mechanically with bonus mysteries and dc based off charisma, I just hate the slower spell progression and being "locked in" (its most a psychological feeling than a legitimate gaming problem).
Good luck, and can you post some hands on experience with it sometime? I have honestly never played a shadowcaster before and I want some physical recommendations of what is good. Based off my reading of the class it works great for NPCs since they can nova, but for players the less amount of spells per day is going to stink.
Nothing from Tome of Magic is allowed in LG.
There is if you have access.
There is if you have access.
You will never gain access under the current LGCS. The LGCS doesn't permit authors to include Tome of Magic material, and therefore you can't be granted access to that material. See LGCS 597, page 26, for a list of available sources beyond the core materials. Because TOM isn't on that list, nothing in that source is legal.
Some relevant excerpts:
LG does not use variant rules unless specifically stated otherwise; sidebars are considered variant rules.
LGCS, pg 5.
"[R]ules options from many other books are available to players, as listed in this appendix. These additional rules options come from the following sources:"
LGCS, Appendix 4, pg 26. The listing that follows doesn't include TOM.
If you have an AR that says otherwise, the author has broken the rules, and you won't be permitted to use the benefits granted by that AR. In fact, you have an obligation to point out the issue to your local Triad or to the Circle. Because this is off topic, you should address this to the LG boards if you still don't see why you can't have a Shadowcaster in LG.
Sorcerer works better mechanically with bonus mysteries and dc based off charisma, I just hate the slower spell progression and being "locked in" (its most a psychological feeling than a legitimate gaming problem).
Good luck, and can you post some hands on experience with it sometime? I have honestly never played a shadowcaster before and I want some physical recommendations of what is good. Based off my reading of the class it works great for NPCs since they can nova, but for players the less amount of spells per day is going to stink.
Thanks, I'll talk to my DM tonight about bringing in the new character. I have to get the errata-ed version approved (I don't think he's read it, but will probably agree). Also, I'd like to make sure he's cool with me beginning play with levels in a prestige class.
In the mean-time, perhaps a bit of brainstorming?
In our campaign, we roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest die, and assign as desired for stats. If a player gets a lot of crappy numbers, they're allowed to use a 32 point buy instead. Currently, the party level is around seven, so I'll make a seventh level character for purposes of this "brainstorm."
Additionally, since I personally believe that optimized characters should be optimized at each level, as opposed to having to wait several levels before becoming really cool, I'll try to incorporate that without sacrificing the long-term strength of the character. This way, if someone decides to play a similar character, they won't have to suffer through the low levels.
Note: Though I plan on rolling stats in front of the DM tonight, I'll use the 32 point buy here for edumicational purposes.
Level 1:
Human Sorcerer 1
Ability Scores (32 point buy): Str 10, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 16
Variant Class Ability: Metamagic Specialist
Skill ranks (24 points total): Concentration 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Spellcraft 4, Bluff 4, Spot 2, Listen 2
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Maximize Spell (bonus)
New Spells Known:
0 level - dancing lights, detect magic, amanuensis, read magic
1st level - benign transposition, feather fall
2nd level - mirror image
Level 2:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 1
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Knowledge (arcana) 2, Knowlege (the planes) 4
New Mysteries Known:
1st level - bend perspective
Level 3:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 2
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Knowlege (the planes) 2, Concentration 4
Feats: Extend Mystery
New Mysteries Known:
1st level - carpet of shadow
Level 4:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3
Ability Increase: +1 Charisma
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Hide 2, Move Silently 2, Spot 2
New Mysteries Known:
2nd level - Flesh Fails
Level 5:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 1
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Knowlege (arcana) 2, Concentration 2, Spellcraft 2
New Mysteries Known:
2nd level - piercing sight
New Spells Known:
0 level - caltrops
Level 6:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 2
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Knowlege (the planes) 2, Concentration 2, Spellcraft 2
Feats: Reach Mystery
New Mysteries Known:
3rd level - umbral touch
New Spells Known:
1st level - ray of clumsiness
Level 7:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 3
Skill ranks (6 points gained): Concentration 3, Spellcraft 3
New Mysteries Known:
3rd level - killing shadows
New Spells Known:
0 level - prestidigitation
2nd level - scorching ray
Final Build:
Human Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 3
Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 17
Variant Class Ability: Metamagic Specialist (Sorcerer)
Skill ranks: Concentration 15, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Knowlege (the planes) 8, Spellcraft 11, Bluff 4, Spot 4, Listen 2
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Maximize Spell (human bonus), Extend Mystery, Reach Mystery
Spells Known:
0 level - dancing lights, detect magic, amanuensis, read magic, caltrops, prestidigitation
1st level - benign transposition, feather fall, ray of clumsiness
2nd level - mirror image, scorching ray
Mysteries Known:
Fundamentals - Arrow of Dusk, Caul of Shadows, Umbral Hand
1st level - bend perspective, carpet of shadow
2nd level - piercing sight, flesh fails
3rd level - umbral touch, killing shadows
Strategies/Tactics:
- My Metamagic Specialist ability will allow me to Maximize six spells per day with no extra cost. Since almost all of my spells have variable numerical effects, I'll get the most benefit out of it.
- Extend Mystery will allow me to get more out of umbral touch and bend perspective in particular, but works with all my mysteries except arrow of dusk and killing shadows.
- Flesh fails and umbral touch synergize very well with a maximised ray of clumsiness, especially when I use the Reach Mystery feat. Unless my math is wrong, that would lead to 12 points of Dexterity damage (-6 AC) which would drop the touch AC down significantly. It would also make the target easy pickings for a well-placed scorching ray.
Does anyone have any comments or advice regarding this build? I haven't included equipment, but will purchase it as soon as I get the basic character approved. I was going to take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, but realized I currently don't have any spells that could really benefit from it. Also, I might swap umbral touch for afraid of the dark or maybe flicker, though I haven't decided yet.
Does anyone have any comments or advice regarding this build? I haven't included equipment, but will purchase it as soon as I get the basic character approved.
A couple of mechanical things:
- You are a 7th level character, you can't have more than 10 ranks in any skill, no matter how many classes you have;
- You should have four fundamentals -- you get a 4th at SC 4, and PrC's that advance SC spellcasting include additional fundamentals.
As for magic items, you might want to consider Orbs of Shadow to increase your mystery casting.
You will get a big boost in power next level, with L2 spells, L4 mysteries, and doubled use of all of your apprentice mysteries.
A couple of mechanical things:
- You are a 7th level character, you can't have more than 10 ranks in any skill, no matter how many classes you have;
Whoops. Thanks for the catch. On the plus side, that's three more skill points for me to put somewhere else! (always look on the bright side)
- You should have four fundamentals -- you get a 4th at SC 4, and PrC's that advance SC spellcasting include additional fundamentals.
As for magic items, you might want to consider Orbs of Shadow to increase your mystery casting.
I kind of rushed through this build so thanks for catching the bit about fundamentals.
You will get a big boost in power next level, with L2 spells, L4 mysteries, and doubled use of all of your apprentice mysteries.
Yipee kay yay. Now to get as much XP as possible!
I'm off to tonight's gaming session. If I get a chance to use this character in play, I'll let you know how it goes.
Ability scores are as follows: 16, 15, 14, 14, 11, 9. Obviously the highest two are going into intelligence and charisma, but assuming I don't find a way to permanently raise them, I'll only have five stat points to distribute. The build I'm looking at will grant 8th level arcane spells and 9th level mysteries at 20th level, which means I'd need 19 intelligence and 18 charisma to gain access to them, which is one extra point I don't have (Level increases will end up with 19 in one stat and 17 in the other, or 18 in both). Alternatively, I can take levels of wizard instead of sorcerer in which case I've got nothing to worry about. Or I can just suck it up choose to go without either eighth level spells or eighth level mysteries.
So the choice is:
a) Level 9 mysteries and level 7 spells
b) Level 8 mysteries and level 8 spells
Since the Sorcerer Metamagic Specialist variant class ability doesn't change the fact that metamagic feats require higher level spell slots to cast, I'll probably hold off on metamagic for now, and maybe take the Penumbra Bloodline feat. It's not really optimal, per se, but it does give me extra spells known and it does fit in terms of my character concept and "dark" theme. To this end I've even entertained the notion of adding the Dark template as well (+1 LA).
Tough choices. Suggestions?
Tough choices. Suggestions?
Head band of intellect or a cloak of charisma should handle the problem
Head band of intellect or a cloak of charisma should handle the problem
Will those allow me to cast spells that I ordinarily wouldn't be able to (i.e. because my spellcasting ability was too low)?
EDIT: Oh, right. Heh. I had something to add, too. The Still Mystery metashadow feat doesn't have a times/day limit like the rest. So, really, you can take that and never worry about ASF ever. You still have to get proficiency, but it's nice.
Will those allow me to cast spells that I ordinarily wouldn't be able to (i.e. because my spellcasting ability was too low)?
As already stated yes they will allow you to use spells/mysteries you normally couldn't as well as provide bonus spells. Though you have to wear them for a day first
As already stated yes they will allow you to use spells/mysteries you normally couldn't as well as provide bonus spells. Though you have to wear them for a day first
Note to self: Learn how to read.
If you have an AR that says otherwise, the author has broken the rules, and you won't be permitted to use the benefits granted by that AR. In fact, you have an obligation to point out the issue to your local Triad or to the Circle. Because this is off topic, you should address this to the LG boards if you still don't see why you can't have a Shadowcaster in LG.
I have access from an AR from last year. I was unaware that the ToM was explicitly forbidden. And actually, I just looked at the document - all that lists is Open material. The LGCS specifically states that material that is not "Open" is available if found on an AR.
I do believe you're wrong on this.
Anyway ... back to actually building my LG-legel Sorcerer/Shadowcaster ...
What do people find to be better for a Noctumancer build - lots of low level mysteries for the feat poptions or higher level mysteries for the power? Is Practiced Spellcaster worth it for your Shadowcaster casting level? I'm thinking:
Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster3/Noctumancer8 with Practiced Spellcaster for Sorcerer in there somewhere. My Sorcerer has Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath, so I was thinking of taking mysteries and spells that make him more mobile rather than too many that do raw damage. He's a Gnome, so any illusion-based mysteries/spells will have nicer DCs too.
What do people find to be better for a Noctumancer build - lots of low level mysteries for the feat poptions or higher level mysteries for the power? Is Practiced Spellcaster worth it for your Shadowcaster casting level? I'm thinking:
As you only get bonus feats when taking levels of shadowcaster you can't get many so I'd say go for the higher level mysteries
As you only get bonus feats when taking levels of shadowcaster you can't get many so I'd say go for the higher level mysteries
See now I wonder about that. The Bonus Feat ability is a second level ability and it specifically says that any time you learn two new paths, you get a Bonus feat. The way I read it, you already have the ability to get bonus feats any time you learn enough paths. It's not tied to the higher Shadowcaster levels. The ability seems to be a 2nd level ability that's irrespective of how you get the mysteries.
Though I can see arguments against htis (i.e. precedent).
See now I wonder about that. The Bonus Feat ability is a second level ability and it specifically says that any time you learn two new paths, you get a Bonus feat. The way I read it, you already have the ability to get bonus feats any time you learn enough paths. It's not tied to the higher Shadowcaster levels. The ability seems to be a 2nd level ability that's irrespective of how you get the mysteries.
On page 117 at the top of the second column it specifies that the casting advancement of a PRC does not provide bonus feats for learning new paths.
On page 117 at the top of the second column it specifies that the casting advancement of a PRC does not provide bonus feats for learning new paths.
Ahhh ... bummer. That would certainly make the class a little more attractive. I guess I'm going with the :higher level mysteries" option.
The LGCS specifically states that material that is not "Open" is available if found on an AR. I do believe you're wrong on this.
For the record, you're right. In fact, there's an LG mod that lets you play a binder, too. Now, back to making shadowcasters . . . .
On page 117 at the top of the second column it specifies that the casting advancement of a PRC does not provide bonus feats for learning new paths.
Yeah, that's kind of weird. Namely because the sample npcs included with the PrC descriptions all have a number of feats that they could only have gotten as shadowcaster bonus feats.
Yeah, that's kind of weird. Namely because the sample npcs included with the PrC descriptions all have a number of feats that they could only have gotten as shadowcaster bonus feats.
It sure would be nice to get the author's opinion on this.
Yeah, that's kind of weird. Namely because the sample npcs included with the PrC descriptions all have a number of feats that they could only have gotten as shadowcaster bonus feats.
This is an important fact to keep in mind with all WotC books, sample NPCs are always wrong
This is an important fact to keep in mind with all WotC books, sample NPCs are always wrong
I don't know whether to be amused or disappointed.
Please take some time to comment/judge/criticize this variant class ability for Shadowcasters I came out with, inspired by BobtheMoose.
It's about casting mysteries more times by acquiring "depravity" (mental taint), using the normal rules presented in Heroes of Horror.
Tainted Shadowcaster
Link to the full thread.
Feedback will be extremely welcome.
What feats and spells and mysteries would you recommend?
Right now the plan is to go from Gnome Sorcerer 5 to Gnome Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster2 at level 6:
Sorcerer4/Shadowcaster2
Strength 8
Dexterity 14
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10
Charisma 16 (15 + level bump)
Feats:
Empower Spell, Sculpt Spell, Craft Wondrous Items (to make more Orbs of Shadow), Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer)
Spells:
(0) Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message
(1) Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Silent Image
(2) Glitterdust
Fundamentals:
Arrow of Dusk, Black Candle, Umbral Hand
Mysteries:
???
The Mysteries are where I struggle. I'm not too excited about a lot of 3rd level mysteries mostly because of the lackluster of 2nd level mysteries in getting there. My favorite Apprentice Path is Dark Terrain. If Black Fire works the way I think it does, I'd consider taking it twice.
Are we allowed to choose the squares where the Black Fire is cast? Can we place them anywhere we wish as long as they are contiguous?
I was thinking of mastering one path (Dark Terrain) and taking 3 1st level msyteries and probably Black Fire twice. Obviously I need Carpet of Shadow. I really like Steel Shadow and Bend Perspective. If I don't take Black Fire twice, I like Sight Eclipsed to be able to hide in plain sight.
I see myself as becoming a mobility and battlefield control specialist rather than a blasting mage. I plan on getting things like Swift Fly, Evard's Black Tentacles and probably Solid Fog. That's why I like the Dark Terrain mysteries. Black Fire on top of an area with Evard's Tentacles seems like a nice one-two punch.
I think I'll do the same thing with the initiate mysteries - taking 3 at 4th level, one at 5th and one at 6th. I just see myself getting more usage out of the lower level mysteries.
I will probably take Rapid Metamagic at 9th and then I was thinking of Mobile Spellcasting at 12th and maybe some other metamagic feat at 15th.
Example: a charisma of 30(easibly reachable by lvl 20) grants extra mysteries in the order of 3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1
Thats about six extra feats. WOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHOOOOOOOOO
ahhem...i mean..very nice
Maybe shadowcaster 20 isnt that weak afterall
...Due to the unofficial errata stating that a high charisma grants bonus mysteries...
I believe that this bonus mysteries grant extra uses, not true extra mysteries, so I don't think that would work...
I believe that this bonus mysteries grant extra uses, not true extra mysteries, so I don't think that would work...
This would be more over powered i believe. This could potentially double your lvl 9 mysteries. From a potential four to eight.
but w/e, its still lots and lots of low level mysteries.
Where is this errata of which you speak?
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3273239&postcount=2
And it sounds more like a bonus use of mysteries of (whatever) level rather than actual more mysteries. Like having the mystery learned twice, except precisely which mystery is up to you, it floats. Although I don't think you could pull off an extra 3 of a level 1 mystery at level 13+ if you only had one bonus mystery. I think it'd just be one extra use.
Thats an improvement but still fails to bring the shadowcaster up to speed with other casters. The way i presented it previously is more powerful, but not game breaking still.
It encourages a high charisma, grants many more spell, still less then a common sorcerer, with much less choice then a wizard.
Or even the other way i presented it, as extra uses PER mystery is not an overbearing use. Either way the change could bring the shadowcaster from horrible caster class to good or even great.
Breaking the "you must take this spell before this spell" rule is HUGE, because it lets you cherry-pick good mysteries that are stranded in a lousy school. (Actually I like that forced rule and wished that other casters had to follow it, but since they don't ...)
And the change to supernatural ability DCs is also major, letting you really use those abilities at CR-appropriate encounters.
Damok
Currently of no sig worth mentioning
I've been browsing around for a while and I'm curious... has anyone considered warlock/shadow caster/eldritch theurge/ noctumancer? Seems to me like you might make out fairly well with that method. I feel like I'm missing something relatively obvious though.
Damok
Currently of no sig worth mentioning
I have.
Playing as an Illumian is the only way to make it marginally work.
But I keep using warlock abilities all day.... very rarely do mysteries come out of the proverbial quiver.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP.
Shadowcasters..... suck.
What is the general view on shadowcaster shadow evocation? It looks like it is more powerful than the sorcerer version (mimicking spells under 5th level instead of 4th level) but the spell description implies that it should be less powerful since it misquotes the level allowed for sorcerer shadow evocation spells. Should duplicated effects be limited to 3rd level and under as it a 4th level? Or have they changed the description of the sorcerer spell (I thought it duplicated spells of 4th or lower)?
Has anyone tried the suggestions made by the author of the class? Are they balanced? Would you suggest them?
I have implemented them but not playtested yet. My original sor/shc/noct build was too weak though, so I recommend them. I swapped to beguiler as well, to gain more spell choice. The only think I don't like is DC10+ 1/2 level+ cha for supernatural abilities. I went with 10 + 1/4 Shc level + cha or the original DC, whichever is greater. It leads to supernatural abilities creeping up until they become the same DC as level 3 or 4 mysteries, so not majorly increasing but giving a bit of a bonus.
It helps to offset the weakness in path focus, which is so much more limited than spell focus. As a noctumancer who doesn't get the bonus feats it is handy to be able to pick and choose from any msytery in a path. It also means a bit more variety as you can 'swap out' a lower level mystery when you obtain the higher level version.
Night's Long Fingers (apprentice): A pair of utility mysteries and a telekinetic-maneuver-type attack that can get into some ridiculousness when combined with Fighter6 and the DungeonCrasher variant. I’ll look for the link on this one.
Darkened Alleys (initiate): Three close-range, condition-inducing emanations. Sickening Shadows, for example, is basically a 5th level stinking cloud that still makes victims sickened if they save. Deadly Shade has some nice offensive potential if combined with lots of area-effect attacks, but the short range seems to limit overall utility.
Shadowscape (master): These are pretty fun, actually. Grasping Shadows is a blindness-inducing Black Tentacles that, unlike the original spell, tries to regrapple foes that escape (BT’s sole weakness). Menagerie of Darkness is an excellent countermove if you’re facing a druid, but that’s pretty situational. Black Labyrinth is absolutely spectacular for a BBEG to pull out on a smart-ass adventuring group. All their pretty tactical moves go awry, it can cover an entire dungeon level and it lasts practically forever.
. This, however turned out to be a good thing, since I have now made him into a "ghost" (The Ghostwalk kind). Since the ninja lvels give me an ac bonus equal to my wisdom (Which is a 16) and my "ghost" template gives me a dodge bonus equal to my charisma (which is also a 16), add to that my dex (An 18), that gives me an ac of 20! Without armor! It gets better with my 50% miss chance.Even better is the fact that the eidoloncer class in ghostwalk allows me to continiue advancing my mysteries becouse of the "spellcasting" feature (It allows me to add my levels of eidoloncer to any spellcasting class I have, including shadowcaster).
Btw, my guy is the "stealthy assasin" type build.
I've taken "Shadow Familiar" feat and obtained a cat (with Dark Template, as per the feat). I've had great fun casting an empowered Umbral Touch mystery on the cat, and sending it out into the shadows to attack unsuspecting opponents. Given the Dark Templates enhancements, the cat has "hide in plain site" and a high Hide modifier (+24). The "assassin cat" has proved devastating, and is a wonder to behold. The empowered Umbral Touch essentially allows the cat to touch 6 times, doing 7d6 points of damage per touch.
While many have been critical of this class for being relatively weak, I think that you can still have a great experience.
My shadowcaster primarily relies on the shadow elemental in combat (given that incorporeality provides excellent benefits), and secondarily relies on Umbral Touch. At 5th level Master of Shadows, the shadow elemental will be able to "deliver spells", thus allowing the combination of Umbral Touch with the shadow elemental's incorporeal touch attack! Yikes!
All in all, I am very satisfied with the Shadowcaster class (as written in the ToM).
Just an update: My shadowcaster moved into the Master of Shadows PrC at 7th level, and is still going strong (currently 7th lvl Shadowcaster/4th lvl Master of Shadows). His familiar/cat has transformed a shadow elemental, which benefits from incorporeality and Master's Bidding abilities.
My shadowcaster primarily relies on the shadow elemental in combat (given that incorporeality provides excellent benefits), and secondarily relies on Umbral Touch. At 5th level Master of Shadows, the shadow elemental will be able to "deliver spells", thus allowing the combination of Umbral Touch with the shadow elemental's incorporeal touch attack! Yikes!
All in all, I am very satisfied with the Shadowcaster class (as written in the ToM).
That's great! I too think the SC is better than people give credit (primarily as a blaster, though there's a Life Fades build around here which is pretty cool too). There's a few threads around here that have more recent Shadowcasters (even a CO Diary).
As a fun idea, I would love to do some TWFing with Umbral Touch.
I've been wondering about this for a while, how does one get thier gish on with the Shadowcaster when you are denied access to any full BAB/casting progression classes? The Shadowsmith PrC makes an attempt at doing something gish-like, but is sadly lacking in that department.
As a fun idea, I would love to do some TWFing with Umbral Touch.
You can focus on touch damaging attacks as a straight-shadowcaster, using Umbral Body, Bolster, and Umbral Touch.
Its not a traditional gish at all, but does do the melee + damage role.
Feats should focus on metashadowing and Favorite Mystery. There's a weird trick w/ Favored Mystery, which you'd have to run by your DM: the feat says that it (the feat) doesn't increase the number of times per day, but rather increases the ability to the next tier (spell to spell-like to supernatural). Your class ability, Mysteries and Paths, bases the number of times per day on whether its Spell-Like or Supernatural, however, so you still get additional uses per day, albeit not directly through the feat.
Show
Fundamanetals:
Caul of Shadow- Free, scaling dodge bonuses to AC that enventually become at-will.
Appentice Path Mysteries:
Cloak of Shadows
1. Steel Shadows- For use with Caul of Shadow for a good AC at early levels.
3. Sharp Shadows-They hit you, and you hit them for some damage that allows spell resistance until it becomes supernatural. *
Shutters and Clouds
2. Shadow Skin- DR that goes from magic, to sliver, and finally to - at 20th. Sort of meh for levels 3 to 9, but gets better later on.
3. Dancing Shadows- gives you concelment when used with multiple subjects, but on a single subject it gives you total concelment. Pretty nice.
Touch of Twilight
3. Umbral Touch- deals some good damage as a touch attack, and has a possiblity for slowing a target. get it to supernatural to get rid of that SR: yes.*
Nights Long Fingers
3. Umbral Fist- Make special attacks at a rage of 100 ft+ 10/ level. Touch attacks can made with this, you can bull rush, disarm, or trip with it; and is generally awesome.
Initiate Path Mysteries:
Black Magic
6. Flood of Shadow- Force enemy casters within the area to make spell craft checks to cast spells that aren't mysteries or spells with the [Shadow] discriptor. Give mysteries and shadow spells a free empower.
Body and Soul
4. Bolster- Gains some scaling temperary hp. Real nice.
Darkened Alleys
6. Deadly Shade- You can either force damaged enemies to save or take negitive levels Or gain DR4/ - that stacks with other sources and resistance to all elements 4. You choose which at the time of casting.
Master Path Mysteries:
Dark Metamorphosis
8. Umbral Body- Become incorporeal. this is great and a litte problematic, as you need something with the ghost touch property to be able to use your weapons. The same goes for your enemies. *
9. Shadow Time- Time Stop for shadowcasters. It is good for all the reasons Time Stop is. *
The paths Darkened Alleys and Nights Long Fingers are from the Urban Magic Cityscape web enhancement.
Fundamanetals:
Caul of Shadow- Free, scaling dodge bonuses to AC that enventually become at-will.
Appentice Path Mysteries:
Cloak of Shadows
1. Steel Shadows- For use with Caul of Shadow for a good AC at early levels.
3. Sharp Shadows-They hit you, and you hit them for some damage that allows spell resistance until it becomes supernatural. *
Shutters and Clouds
2. Shadow Skin- DR that goes from magic, to sliver, and finally to - at 20th. Sort of meh for levels 3 to 9, but gets better later on.
3. Dancing Shadows- gives you concelment when used with multiple subjects, but on a single subject it gives you total concelment. Pretty nice.
Touch of Twilight
3. Umbral Touch- deals some good damage as a touch attack, and has a possiblity for slowing a target. get it to supernatural to get rid of that SR: yes.*
Nights Long Fingers
3. Umbral Fist- Make special attacks at a rage of 100 ft+ 10/ level. Touch attacks can made with this, you can bull rush, disarm, or trip with it; and is generally awesome.
Initiate Path Mysteries:
Black Magic
6. Flood of Shadow- Force enemy casters within the area to make spell craft checks to cast spells that aren't mysteries or spells with the [Shadow] discriptor. Give mysteries and shadow spells a free empower.
Body and Soul
4. Bolster- Gains some scaling temperary hp. Real nice.
Darkened Alleys
6. Deadly Shade- You can either force damaged enemies to save or take negitive levels Or gain DR4/ - that stacks with other sources and resistance to all elements 4. You choose which at the time of casting.
Master Path Mysteries:
Dark Metamorphosis
8. Umbral Body- Become incorporeal. this is great and a litte problematic, as you need something with the ghost touch property to be able to use your weapons. The same goes for your enemies. *
9. Shadow Time- Time Stop for shadowcasters. It is good for all the reasons Time Stop is. *
The paths Darkened Alleys and Nights Long Fingers are from the Urban Magic Cityscape web enhancement.
I wouldn't get Shadow Skin, just b/c it doesn't scale well, and at low level you aren't really capable of doing the gish thing anyways. I'd probably pick Life Fades. Your 5th level I'd pick Pass Into Shadow, as its duel utility (dry gulching the enemy or travel).
I'm not familiar w/ Deadly Shade... Also, I've always questioned the utility of Shadow Time, although w/ a self-buffing Shadowcaster it makes more sense.
One thing to keep in mind: your Greater Shadow Evocation can be used to emulate a TON of awesome buffs (one of my favorite is Dragon Breath, particularly if you can fit in a few metashadows for Maximize - rivals a Dragonfire Adept for coolness, imo).
Someone wanna explain how they tried to pull that one over our eyes and get us all hyped up over nothing?