Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 4:45:13	The legacy champion is a PrC from weapons of legacy. It gets all sorts of special abilities for legacy items, but thats not what makes them special. Their power lies in their ability to progress all class features, including spellcasting, of a previous class, something they share only with the uncanny trickster. in 10 levels, a legacy champion gets 8 levels of class features. this might seem sub-par - why not just take 10 levels in the class you wnat to progress? the answer is simple: you cant progress 10-level PrC's beyond 10th level before epic, and you cant progress those with fewer than 10 levels beyond the normal max at all. this makes the legacy champion very good for few-level PrCs, whose class features were never meant to be progressed beyond the max level. my favored example is the hellfire warlock: HW 3/LGC 10 will get you 22d6 bonus damage on your EB. but other classes can be used to abuse this nifty feature; this thread is dediacted to find those. if you have a trick for our legacy friend that i didn't mention, please post it. The Legacy Abusers (or the builds) Abjurant Legacy Champion battle sorcerer 4/fighter 2/abjurant champion 4/legacy champion 10 casts as a level 16 sorcerer +18/+12/+7/+2 BAB CL 18 abjuration spells that give armor bonus give 12 more.
#2 reis Apr 07, 2009 5:38:06	I think there is also some debate over whether or not this is how legacy champion in fact works but I guess for the purpose of this thread you would rather not rehash that discussion.
#3 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 5:39:48	unless nothing else get posted here, id rather not have that discussion begin here.
#4 jseah Apr 07, 2009 5:55:49	What about the Canith Wand Wielder from Sharn: City of Towers? IIRC, you get to add save DC to spells cast from wands at every level (it's a 3 level class). Adding +10 save DC is much pain...
#5 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 5:57:21	dont own the book. feel free to post a build for it here, ill first post it.
#6 jseah Apr 07, 2009 6:01:47	Artificer 5 / Cannith Wand Adept 3 / Legacy Champion 10 / 2 Anything Cannith Wand Adept is from Sharn: City of Towers, an Eberron setting book. +11 to save DCs and caster level from wands...
#7 phaedrusxy Apr 07, 2009 12:46:11	War Weaver. You can put up to 9th level spells in your Tapestry.
#8 madgryphon Apr 07, 2009 12:59:51	It may be worth noting that your warlock's solution to the con damage problem with Hellfire is still rather debated, while a binder dip is agreed to work for sure.
#9 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 13:22:40	then take a binder dip instead of the last walock level, for all i care.
#10 keithio Apr 07, 2009 13:24:16	You didn't mention Ultimate magus, like I did in the other thread. Normal: Beguiler1/Wiz4/UltimateMagus10/WizPRC5 = 19/8 casting, augment 5th level spells. Abused: Beguiler1/Wiz4/UltimateMagus10/LegacyChampion5 = 18/12 casting, augment 7th level spells, including persist.
#11 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 13:26:22	first posted
#12 tordak Apr 07, 2009 13:45:55	I saw that before but never stopped to think how to break it. At the top of my head, I can see abjurant champion being quite strong (nevermind that pierce magical protection feat - using - jerk), gaining + 19 to AC from a greater mage armor + 17 from a shield spell. Not to shabby, but we can do better.
#13 true_shinken Apr 07, 2009 14:13:29	Stronghert Vest does not work to prevent Hellfire's Con damage, use Naberius instead.
#14 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 14:18:28	why wont stronheart vest work?
#15 keithio Apr 07, 2009 14:22:32	why wont stronheart vest work? No, you can't prevent the damage, only heal it.
#16 hijaxx Apr 07, 2009 14:24:45	it says: if you dont have a constitution score or are somehow immune to constitution damage. do we have a constitution score: yes are we immune to constitution damage: no so we can use it.
#17 sofawall Apr 07, 2009 16:50:16	But you actually have to take the damage, they're very clear on this.
#18 awaken_D_M_golem Apr 07, 2009 17:59:36	Some of the Psionic classes, have no PrC support. There's literally no other way to play the class, than straight X 20. This kinda sucks chef's balls. Bloodline 3 / Legacy Champion 2 / Uncanny Trickster 2 gets a base class ahead by 4 levels. But this doesn't really break anything. Divine Mind and Lurk ... umm woo-hoo.
#19 noldorforce Apr 07, 2009 18:33:43	But you actually have to take the damage, they're very clear on this. Not at all. It's a bit cheesy, but resistance to any sort of damage, even to the point of de facto immunity (ie, resistance 60 to Con damage), isn't the same thing as actual immunity. (Otherwise things like Searing Spell would not distinguish between the two.) And all that hellfire stuff, as implied above by Hijaxx, does not work if and only if you have no Con score or are otherwise immune to Con damage.
#20 jameswilliamogle Apr 07, 2009 18:39:55	The "vest doesn't work" was backed up by WotC in a few places (as if that mattered)... It might even be in the FAQ.
#21 sofawall Apr 07, 2009 18:44:15	Yeah, I do remember seeing that after this point was brought up a while back. My feeling on the matter, of the possible catagories: Cheese, Maybe and Clean, This falls squarely into Maybe. RAW, yes, RAI, no. Most DMs will scoff, but many will let it in anyway.
#22 noldorforce Apr 07, 2009 18:54:15	The "vest doesn't work" was backed up by WotC in a few places (as if that mattered)... It might even be in the FAQ. Perhaps, but that was when WotC was using CustServ and Ask Wizards as stealth errata. It was another use of the moralistic fallacy (ie, "what is, is what ought to be").
#23 malkavon Apr 07, 2009 19:11:46	It may be worth noting that your warlock's solution to the con damage problem with Hellfire is still rather debated, while a binder dip is agreed to work for sure. It is debated, you are right. The people who argue against it are wrong. The "vest doesn't work" was backed up by WotC in a few places (as if that mattered)... It might even be in the FAQ. The only source I can recall is a Sage article, where the Sage's argument ignored the actual rules text entirely and talked about the flavor text. As such, it should be ignored. No, you can't prevent the damage, only heal it. We aren't preventing the damage. We are taking 0 Con damage. There is a very big difference between taking 0 damage and not taking damage at all. Besides, the restrictions are very precise: you must have a Con score, and you must not be immune to ability damage. The strongheart vest conflicts with neither of these conditions, so it works. But you actually have to take the damage, they're very clear on this. That is a flavor restriction, which I will counter with more flavor: by using the strongheart vest, you are using the souls of the unborn rather than your own to mitigate the damage. The devils still get their due, and it could be argued that you are perpetrating an evil act by doing this so you are actively increasing their power in the multiverse every time you use your hellfire blast.
#24 dr_rocktopus Apr 07, 2009 21:24:40	That is a flavor restriction, which I will counter with more flavor: by using the strongheart vest, you are using the souls of the unborn rather than your own to mitigate the damage. The devils still get their due, and it could be argued that you are perpetrating an evil act by doing this so you are actively increasing their power in the multiverse every time you use your hellfire blast. I refuse to take sides in this, but as you have completed the requisite research, s are now available at the war factory.
#25 malkavon Apr 07, 2009 21:36:39	I refuse to take sides in this, but as you have completed the requisite research, s are now available at the war factory. [Mr. Burns]Excellent![/Mr. Burns] Also, sig'd. Because I need cookies. Mmmmm, cookies.
#26 hijaxx Apr 08, 2009 1:40:05	thou hath spoken wisely, Malkavon. (no cookies from me)
#27 phoenix00 Apr 08, 2009 6:01:27	War Weaver. You can put up to 9th level spells in your Tapestry. As well as releasing a bootload of those spells as a move action, for the amount of spells you can release per one move action goes up based off class level.
#28 hijaxx Apr 08, 2009 8:39:28	im kinda busy working on some stuff for the iron siege, so could you guys do a war weaver build for me?
#29 dr_rocktopus Apr 08, 2009 9:33:32	Simple or heavy? Do you want me to open a freaking gate way to madness or just spec out a LC/WW build? The simplest is obviously: W5/WW5/LC10 But I am partial to: Bard1/W1/MS(abj)2/WW4/2LgC/SublimeChord1/WW1/MS(abj)8 Uses EE hacks, but gets: 6th level spells through the tapestry CL 17//7, 9th && 4th level spells via a playable build Master Specialist(Abjuration) capstone, for casting into tapestry.
#30 ashern Apr 27, 2010 12:27:36	Another thought on this, couldn't you take the class to continue fist of the forest PrC progression?  That way you can get unarmed damage bumps every two levels of progression.  With 3 levels of FotF and 5 levels of Champion of Legacy, that would increase your damage by 4 steps, maxing it out on the monk table, in addition to the other effects of Fist of the Forest.
#31 elthenar Apr 27, 2010 17:47:53	I am surprised only one person has mentioned Sublime Chord (and didn't advance it). What would happen if you were to advance Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest beyond 10th?
#32 ashern Apr 27, 2010 19:34:25	Your DMs head a'splodes.
#33 widow Apr 28, 2010 0:30:17	Wow someone brought back an old thread. I am surprised only one person has mentioned Sublime Chord (and didn't advance it). What would happen if you were to advance Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest beyond 10th? Nothing special really.  The Sublime chord you cannot get into until level 11.  At this point you are best at fully advancing that class by taking more levels in it or a full caster progression class.  By the time it is complete, you can advance it epically any way.  The Ur-priest might be a little better.  Assuming you go 5 X/ Ur-Priest 10/ Legacy champion 5, you are only increasing the caster level since Ur-priest does not have any class abilites that really advance except turn undead.  Again you are better off using a PrC that progresses spell casting to boost the caster level and give you new class abilities.  The only thing it might give you of interest is a bonus epic feat, but you don't qualify for any of them since you are not epic (baring a kobold build). Unless I missed it eariler, everyone missed the best classes to advance with Legacy champion.  1 is to use it to advance Bloodlines from unearthed arcania.  If you have a build with multiple class abilites that are level based, advancing bloodlines will advance them all.  The hellfire warlock is an example.  A Fiend of possession build can also benefit from Legacy champion or Uncanny trickster to push bloodlines up further.  Again this is because Fiend of Possession has only one ability that will benefit from more than the normal 6 levels, this ability can be advanced with bloodlines, and FoP builds also have lots of dips that allow for additional level based class abilites. 2 is the savage progressions web enhancement.  One example is found here www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/200... Basically it is a level break down for templates like vampire, half-dragon, half-celestial, and even for some higher LA races like the Deep Gnome.  Unlike savage species racial break downs, you don't have to take every level of the class.  Take the first level in the class, then advance it the rest of the way with Legacy champion.  A melee build with 3/4 BAB from Legacy champion plus template abilites could be useful, but it is best if you are taking the template any way. 3 and the most important is Illthiad Savant.  Now if you stick out all 15 levels of Mind Flayer to finally get to the Illthiad savant PrC, and get all the way to 18th level to get your very first class ability, EAT THE CHAMPION and REPEAT (true Res after you tie him up for more eating).  A level 10 champion meal can advance your Illthiad savant abilities by 8 levels.  You don't even need a full power champion, +7 levels will do since the epic savant is techniquely a seperate class if I remeber.  I would go with something like Mindflayer 15/ Savant 3/ Thrallherd 1 Use the Psionic version of the Mind flayer.  Advance Savant by 7 and Thrallherd by 9 with 2 out of your 3 eat class abilities.  Body tamer is another class that might interest you to take, or you can just eat a spell caster.  Once you have thrallherd, you can leadership up whatever you feel like eating.
#34 widow Apr 28, 2010 0:43:59	More standard classes: Heirophant: Once you are an epic cleric, this is great for bonus metamagic feats if you have nothing else in mind.  5 levels of this with 5 of legacy champion at level 30 will give you a few bonus metamagic feats. Arcane Hierophant:  Druid 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Hierophant 9/ Legacy Champion 6. Using early entry tricks, this will net you Druid Spell progression of 18, Wildshape of 17, and Wizard (or Sorcerer) progression of 16th.
#35 blinddagger95 Apr 30, 2010 8:59:54	This one isn't exactly game breaking, but as martial adepts don't technically have a spell pregression and they just learn maneuvers in a mathematically recurring pattern, you could maybe use legacy champion to keep learning maneuvers? Aside from that I was thinking of using legacy champion with the devoted spirit sword for the epic levels of a crusader I'm working on. This would allow for steely resolve 40, allowing +8 to hit/dmg as well as the legacy item stuff.