If you find a weakness in this Pure Fighter MELEE build, kindly post, and better yet, plug the hole.
This is not a scout build, a healer build, or a ranged build. Moreover, I'm not sure on Cash balance. Might have to take Ancestral RElic so the main weapon doesn't count against cash, or something.
To Wit, here we go.
Re-Edited for minor Feat errors, AoO interpretations!
Edit: Changed halberd references to Glaive. Halberd doesn't have Reach.
Armor changed to Mithril BP. Alternatively, keep it if you'd rather rely on skill tricks for things. I like my 10' steps, tho.
Added Previn's revised gear, with no feat changes as might be used to exceed normal wealth guidelines. Revised stats in accord with wealth limits.
Edit: Please check out the reply to Njemke, Post 191, Page 7, for some questions on tactics and ability vs. various situations.
Added a Covering Strike Item option to build to ward against enemy Robilar's.
Edit: Add in Occult Opportunist as a highly recommended feat for generating more AoO's against casters.
Edit: Add Supernatural Opportunist as an optional feat for campaigns heavy with them (Cite Archrpwr and Omen of Peace.) I have some reservations because defining 'use a Supernatural ability' can be construed almost as many ways as 'use iron heart surge'.
Edit: Supernatural Instincts does the same thing as Supernatural Opportunist, but requires Combat Reflexes as a pre req (Khan the Destroyer).
Edit: Added Precise Swing as an optional feat. It's from Eberron, and eliminates miss chances from all cover except total cover, which allows AoO's to pretty much always get off.
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BUILDS
Archerpwr has a QUick Lockdown thread doing a lot of multiclassing and using Decisve Strike as a replacement for OVerwhelming Assault to get the Lock effect earlier (his build is based on the premise that DS is usable in armor, unlike the Flurry it replaces. I happen to disagree with this). Check out his thread for an alternate build!
Edit: QUick Lockdown is now on post 937, page 32. The premise of the build is to get a double dmg lockdown effect in place by level 10, at the cost of some hitting power and accuracy.
Please check out Page 10, post 286, for Howland Reed's level by level build of a Warblade/20 that I pasted over here.
Edit: Khan the Destroyer posted a Half-Ogre version on page 29, post 864. Remember the +LA!
Sir Kenny has put up a 'Divine Lockdown' with level 18 casting ability using Ruby Knight Vindicator to keep advancing casting levels. It departs substantially from the tank theme, but does get level 9 spells! (and no, it doesn't rely on burning turns for swift actions, either) Page 32, post 940, with commentary in the successive posts on the build.
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Lockdown, NG F/20, Human. (alignment is not important, nor is race)
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat. ALTERNATE: Take a big piercing polearm (guisarme or longspear) and wear SPiked Gauntlets. This frees up a feat while allowing you to threaten near and far, letting you take Power Attack or (wait for it!) WEAPON SUPREMACY! Note that with Adaptive, all your Weapon Focus chain could apply to your Gauntlets, too, including Supremacy. You also become hell against a charge...and hey, Lances do piercing dmg, too, don't they?
3- None
4- Weapon Spec
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.)
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO)
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE)
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE.
17- None
18- Deft opportunist
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO)
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat.
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes)
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage)
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s)
Human – Able Learner (no real impact on build, except doesn’t waste skill points)
Comments: As you can see, I’ve taken almost the whole weapon Spec tree for this build. This is completely unnecessary, and probably actually somewhat self-defeating. However, such a tree is only possible to a Fighter. And given how it’s poo-pooed so often, we can happily say that it doesn’t really do much for the build. Effectively, I’ve used up every single General Feat on something absolutely irrelevant.
Thus, the only really important thing is what I did with the extra Fighter Feats. If some of these feats weren’t restricted to being General Feats (ex. Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection), I could literally hand-wave away the feats everybody gets and just make a build with Fighter bonus feats.
The Weapon
Spiked Chain: Taken because it allows you to threaten your whole area, not just at reach.
The same effect would happen if you used a Reach weapon (glaive, guisarme, etc) and Short Hafted it. Also, its a trip weapon, but this is unimportant with the way we trip at late levels. You can make this just adamantine +5 and be pretty good. Making it Shadow Striking deals with all DR, making it Wounding means you deal Con damage. Since you are always going to be in a Thicket of Blades stance, making it +4 and a Devoted Spirit weapon means it is +7 TH all the time. On the other hand, getting rid of Wounding opens you up for Binding and Living and other enchantments which enhance tripping. Tripping is good, even though we don’t use it like normal folks do.
There are doubtless Augment Crystals which should be used with the Chain. The Ghost Touch one and vampiric/healing one are probably the best (heal 1 hp/3 inflicted).
Making the Chain a Dispelling weapon means every hit does a dispel at your level. If you are making a dedicated caster killer and love taking AoO’s, this is doubly cruel…not only are you blowing the Concentration check to the moon, but you can dispel the spell they are casting AND get rid of any spells they are putting up on themselves. You’ll have to rely on other things to punch thru DR tho, which is pretty key.
Note: No Power Attack. While useful, going first is generally more important to locking a character down. If you like, lose greater weapon spec for it.
No Weapon Supremacy. We make Overpowering Attacks…weapon supremacy is redundant. And trying to get us into a grapple is good news for us, bad for you.
Highly recommend the feat Occult Opportunist as an option. This feat allows you to make AoO's off Quick/swift actions, spell like abilities, and activating magical items, among other things. Extremely powerful against casters.
Key Build Items:
+5 Mithral BP (+5 Dex allowed). Of whatever. I’m sure there’s some augment crystals which would be nice to have, esp if they give DR.
A +5 Animated Heavy shield would be nice, but eh. It’s not needed.
+5 Inherent bonus to Dex, Con, Str. Yes, you do have to be good at your job. Likewise, +6 boosters to those stats are core at level 20.
A Mind Blank item because, well, everyone has to have one at this level. Otherwise people moan and groan about scry and die, and pathetic Melee Will Saves. Completely removes a weakness of the class. Strong will classes go from ‘eh, to Cool.” You go from “Oh God I suck” to “BWHAHAHAHA try again.” Fighters get SOOO much from good buffs and their gear...don't you love cash? (and if you whine about class problems, just about EVERYONE has one of these, if you are smart...it's just MORE useful to the fighter!)
+5 resistance, +5 Nat Armor, +5 deflection. They all stack freely, so what the hey. For a backup weapon, a +5 Morningstar is always nice, and you have MWM for it. So is a +1 Valorous Lance, if you want to go charging, and some sort of magic bow, since you have a decent Dex.
Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. Combining items is fine. This gets you both a Haste effect, and Flight, both needed by a high level guy, and some additional land speed. Note the fly spell increases speed to 60’. Land Speed is a decent 40’. Steadfast means that you effectively always have a readied action to hit something charging you...it's even better then Hold the Line!
A +10 Tumble Mod item. Because it's nice to have. It effectively lets you 'take 10' on all your key Tumble Checks. 10k, real cheap.
Other nice items are a Belt of Battle, for some opening extra actions (and +2 Initiative!). Adding Boots of Teleportation effect to your footgear gives you supreme mobility. A ring of blinking and a ring of invisibility should both be present for your stealth options, and a way to get out of ‘locks’, like force walls or the like. Gauntlets of War from Complete Champions gives +3 to melee dmg if you follow a deity with the War domain, and are cheap. Really, you should have something cheap in every equipment slot you can. None are ESSENTIAL for the build, however, and are commented on in passing.
There are now items which grant Pounce, but we’ll ignore them for now. For mundane gear, a Locking gauntlet for +10 vs Disarms, and we’ll assume someone Hardened your Chain to give it a total hardness of 40ish for those fools who like to sunder stuff.
A way to get Enlarge is needed. While the real trick is using a wand of Polymorph self with UMD to get a killer Large form and really smoke your enemy, having 3-5 potions of Enlarge in a potion holder means you can suck one down as a move action. We’ll just go with the potions, for now, tho likely an item that cast Enlarge would be more useful, given how often we use these. Likewise, an Enlarge effect with a longer duration is probably what the Polymorph Wand is best at, all things considered.
And to really, really cheese off the spellcasters with this build, an Anti-Magic Torc or one shot item you can replace. SA to activate is okay, but a move action would be better. If you have a Belt of Battle, it’s irrelevant which.
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Previn's Revised List O Gear
Weapon: +3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit adamantine shadow striking spiked chain (or glaive)(+7 weapon = 98,000 for enhancements +3000 for material)
Body: +5 Mithral BP w/ +5 natural armor (75000 for enhancements +5000 for material)
Non Slotted: +3 Inherent bonus to Dex, +5 to Str. (110,000 for +5, 82500 for +3 so 192,500 (Manual of whatever x2))
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Back: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Ring1: Ring of Blinking w/ +5 deflection bonus (77,000)
Ring2: Ring of Invisibility (20,000)---Optional (for stealth use!
Feet: Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Neck: Anti-Magic Torc w/ +6 con (71,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle w/ +6 str (48,000)
Hands: Locking Gauntlets of War w/ +6 dex (40,000)
Torso: Vest of +10 Tumble (10,000)
Arms: Open
Face: Open
Head: Open
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free.
Edit: Looking through, I see no teleportation effects on the boots. You definitely need the ability to teleport, so finagling some approximates, perhaps by having your party caster make them to conserve gold, is a definite need.
~752k out of 760.
Options:
You still want a teleporting effect. If you are in a party, having a caster around who can cast GMW and/or GMVestment on your weapon/armor will free up sufficient gold for you to do so. Alternatively, swapping out GWSpec for Ancestral Relic and sacking trash magic items to it for full value instead of half value selling your share of loot as you level will free up you the additional gold to do so.
I just noted that Adaptive from ToB is a +1 enhancement cost that lets anyone use your Spiked Chain/Glaive as if they were proficient/spec/focus etc in it. If you have a Focus feat for it, it gives you +1/+1 and pays for itself. I'll adjust the default weapon accordingly.
More desirable is a continuous Mind Blank then a dispellable 1/day, but we take what we can live with.
At level 14, acquire a White Raven enhancement to your helm (20k) that grants Covering Strike and Battle Leader's Charge, if you can. As the manuver is only usable 1/encounter/enemy, it's perfect for you. This is the perfect anti-Robilar's tactic, as it prevents an enemy from making AoO.
You still need some visual enhancement (Darkvision, at least, Blindsight preferable). True Sight usable for 10 min/day or something would take care of most of your miss chances from magical effects.
A +1 Heavy Fortified set of bracers = the cost of a set of Bracers +6. Desirable.
Soulforge on something, if you are going to fight any kind of undead. Adding it to the BP will be pricey, however. Perhaps a helm.
More initiative, if you can get it cheaply. Wearing a +1 spiked Gauntlet of Warning for an additional +5 to Init was recommended, and add on Eager for another +2 would bring your Init bonus to +20 or so (and would actually fit in your budget).
Lockdown has no energy resistance to speak of, nor freedom of movement (CqF does the job in a fight). Disposables or buffs from the party caster would have to suffice for those.
You can lever your wealth with the party caster if they have Create Arms and Armor. However, the fact of the matter is that an adventuring situation requires a huge amount of flexibility and versatility to compensate for. Your 'laundry list' probably won't finalize until you get the huge Wealth bump going from 20 to 21.
I wish to reiterate that this is not a duelling build, and not meant to trash every Nova build alive. It's meant to:
1) Lock down a potentally large number of people, and be a solidly contributing member of any adventuring party.
2) Be able to lock down a spellcaster. At higher levels, this is done by exploiting their incredible vulnerability in an Anti-magic Field. At lower levels, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Thickets, and hope they don't have an item that allows porting.
3) be mobile enough to get to who needs to be gotten to, and once there, keep them there.
4) Have a high enough initiative that going first is entirely possible.
I will be making adjustments based On Previn's new default list, and leave changes and leveraging to those who are building individually.
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Starting Stats --- Note, this is the Elite Array, a default Set. I am NOT using Point Buy, which could change the look of the build significantly.
Str: 15 (20 by level)
Int: 12 (4 skill points a level)
Wis: 10 (Mind Blank item, tyvm)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Cha: 8
Modified Stats:
Str: 31 (+5 Inherent, +6 booster) = +10
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Dex: 22 (+3 Inherent, +6 booster) =+7
Con: 20 (+6 booster) = +5
Cha: 8
AMField stats
Str: 25
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Hit points: Base 115 +5/level = 215 or so. AMF: 155ish
Initiative: +11 (+13 with Belt of Battle). Getting this score up is probably key, especially if you can enchant a weapon for it. A Warning Spiked gauntlet+1 gives you another +5, for instance...and fits into your budget. Add Eager for another +2 (so potentially +20 Init).
Movement: 40 land, 60 flying. +30 to each if hasted.
TH: (Assuming a +3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit weapon of Shadowstriking/Wounding) BAB 20, Str 10, Feats: +4, weapon +7 = +41, 36, 31, 26.
For AoO’s, the TH base is +45, due to Deft Opportunist. +1 possible from Haste.
Dmg: 2-8 +15 Str +6 Feats +3 war gauntlets = +24, avg of 29.
AC: Armor +10, NAC +5, Deflect +5, Dex +5, = 35. If you get an animated Shield, tack on another +7 Shield for AC 42. Fighting Defensively adds +3, Haste from boots adds +1.
When Enlarged: AC goes –1 (size) to 34. TH is unchanged. Dmg rises to 2-12 +27 (avg 34). Reach goes from 10' to 20'.
Saves: In the absence of minor buff items, Fort: +22, Will: +11 (eh, Mind Blank) Reflex: +17
Grapple Mod: +30 + CQF (for another +29 on average = +59 Anti-Grapple). +36 w +34 when Enlarged. +58/+68 CQF if Overpowering.
# AoO’s: 7, 6 if Enlarged. 4 in AMF.
In Anti magic Shell: AC: Drops to 18, +3 if defensive for 21. TH goes to +32 base. Dmg goes to +16 base (21 on average). Grapple goes to +27
Trip Modifier: +20 Bab +10 Str = +30, +36 if Enlarged, +27 in AM field.
Skills: The only real important one is swapping out Climb for Tumble (UA), and having max Ranks of Tumble (23). This gives you a defensive fighting effect of –4 TH/+3AC, which is about as good as Expertise ( it improves to +4AC/-4 Th at 25 ranks. Total Defense gives you +6 AC).
You can get 11 ranks in any cross class skill you desire, such as UMD, Spot, Balance, Sense Motive (whatever you want). Your total skill points to spend are 92 –23 for Tumble = 69 to spend. You also need to reserve another ten points for the requirements of Mage Slayer and PMP.
Knock yourself out. I'd default to Spot, Sense Motive, UMD and Balance with 11 ranks each, at the least. You can get a +10 Competence item to enhance these for 10k a pop (which I might do for Spot, at the least).
Tumble Modifier: +40. Among other things, this allows you to make a 10’ adjustment instead of a 5’ (DC 40) on a rolled 1, and to stand upright from Prone as a Free Action (DC 35). Moving through an opponent’s square is also child’s play.
Tactics:
You are NOT trying to Trip people. Trips just ‘naturally happen.’ (if you have the right feats). What you are doing is making them Stand Still.
Your job is very, very simple. You get your opponent(s) within reach, and you do not let them move. On your turn, you give one of them ONE almighty swat for double damage. (Knockdown means this provokes a Trip attempt). You’ve a good trip modifier, and if they go down, cool…getting up provokes AoO’s from you.
You are always in Thicket of Blades stance (it’s the only one you have). You threaten either a 10’r, or a 20’r if Enlarged.
Anything entering your Reach on a charge triggers an AoO...and you are considered to have a readied action for it. Anything moving anywhere in your reach triggers an AoO. Anyone getting up triggers an AoO.
Because you use Overpowering Assault, all your attacks deal double damage. Stand Still forces a Reflex Save = 10+ Damage dealt. That means when something tries to move around you, it has to somehow pass a DC 60 or 68ish Reflex save. If they are flying, they drop to the ground, too!
In other words, nothing is going to be moving. Not 5’ steps, not Withdraws, not anything.
And we all know that at high levels, mobility is king, right?
You don’t NEED to win initiative, but it certainly helps.
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Edit: Please check out the reply for Njedmke on Page 7, post 191 for some specific situations and responses he was curious about.
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Round One/Surprise round: Tap your heels, activate boots of speed as a Free Action.
How far away is the enemy? How many are you facing?
For a standard combat, you probably want to draw a Potion of enlarge as part of a Move action, then activate your Belt of Battle for an extra Move action. Move forward until your enemies(?) are in proper position (not a charge). Once they are, use a full attack action to initiate an Overpowering Assault, and clock one for 50 pts dmg and force a Massive Damage save. (This also might force a Knockdown save, so +30 or they are tripped.)
Choosing initial position is crucial, because you have to threaten them. This is where Boots of Teleportation come in handy, as you can pick whatever spot you want to go to. In a group, swapping out one of the enemy’s henchmen for you is a fine tactic if the party is ready for it (uses Baleful Transposition with you).
Now, as long as you threaten them, they simply can’t move or cast spells…all they can do is attack you.
If there are some credible melee threats among the enemy, then make sure you do defensive fighting. It won’t affect your AoO if they try to move and get you in reach, due to Deft Opportunist, and your AC goes up to 39 (better if you use a shield, somehow).
Watch your AoO numbers. If you have enough AoO and think your hit points can take it, go into Robilar’s while Defensive Fighting. Your AC is still 36, but now, your enemies are generating all sorts of double damage offense. Keep track of your AoO’s remaining, because you need to keep enough to lock down any spellcasters in range, and keep people from moving (that generally means 1 AoO/person, +1 per spellcaster). Since all your AoO’s do double damage, however, you shouldn’t have a problem with it.
Your biggest problem is going to be spellcasters using swift spells, which don’t provoke AoO. In this event, you’ll have to give up your Overpowering Assault at some point, to ready actions against any quickened spells they’ll use to get out of your threat range. Note that if you are hasted via your Boots, you might want to let it go for the moment. You don’t need a lot of movement once you are in position, and you can move 10’ instead of 5’ as a free adjustment.
Against single spell users: This should end up being a lock if you go first. As long as you aren’t dead and go second, this should also end up with a lock.
The tactic is simple. Click your heels, activate haste, and perform a move up next to them. RIGHT next to them…over top of them is nice. Activate your AM field via the torc.
If you have a Belt of battle, use it instead to get a free SA so you can use Pierce Magical Protection. Activate Boots of Teleportation, if you need them, or perform a double move with your SA, if needed. Ideally, your Hasted movement should get you close enough. Any AC increasing buff spells, which is pretty much all the really good ones, go instantly away (and you ignore their AC effect for this attack, too).
Then unleash your Full attack (Overpowering Assault), and put up the AM field. You might still have to do the AM Field before the Full Attack…that’s fine. The Caster is still hosed.
The AMF immediately negates ALL of their magical bonuses and spells, including alternate forms, wildshapes, animated shields, etc. Furthermore, any magical armor, etc, they have is now non-magical, so their AC is likely dropping into the low 20’s at very best, and more likely into the teens. Furthermore, any summonings in mid summon go away. If they have any summoned minions in the AMF, those take a powder, also.
The spellcaster now has exactly one choice. He has to get out of the AM field to be effective…he’s totally useless otherwise. So, he has to distract you with any minions or animal companions he has, while he tries to get away from you. Note that while there are tons of spells he can cast that can ENTER a AMF (like orbs, walls, deadfall, etc), he can’t CAST while he’s in one (barring specialty priests of Mystra, or something).
He can’t withdraw. His Reflex save probably isn’t going to make the damage you wield to Stand Still (a healthy 31, without magic to boost him...52 against Assault). He has to move at least 10’ to get out of the field, which will trigger a minimum of 2 AoO’s from you (and all of which might trigger Knockdown, ending in him being flat on his face). Without the ability to cast spells, use magical devices or abilities, he’s pretty much useless and a victim. You’ve likely got a +8-11 or so Trip Advantage on him, too.
This leaves you the Animal Companion to deal with, if we’re talking a Druid. An Animal Companion is so not a problem for you.
Remember you’re in an AM field, so you have a lower AC…but it has a lower TH too, and does less damage. You’ve got a lot of HP. You can take it for one round. You should have Robilar’s Gambit up, and be Defensive Fighting to offset it.
If the Animal Companion can attack you, return the favor. You’ve still got 10’ reach. If it enters your reach, hit it. If it moves a square in your reach, hit it (and try to Stand Still it). If it takes a swing at you, hit it. (Remember, every single time you hit it, you might initiate a Knockdown at +27 to the roll).
If you got off an Overpowering Assault, the Stand Still is still a DC 52 Reflex save. It's not going to be moving anytime soon.
Ideally, you should force the Animal companion completely into the Anti-magic Shell, getting rid of any and all magical buffs. This can be done fairly easily, since you determine the center of effect of the AM field. By
a) keeping the (prone) caster between you and the AC, you force it to move around the caster to get at you, since its master gives you cover and thus it doesn’t threaten you. This restricts it to a single attack, which you can Robilar back for damage, and even if it has 10’ reach, so do you…and you get more AoO then it does. And remember, every time you hit it, it could get Knocked Down. And if it moves and you threaten it, you get another AoO.
b) keeping the center of the AM field between you and the caster, you both force the caster to move 10’ to get out of it and force anyone with 10’ reach to move 5’ into it to attack you, unless they circle all the way around the field and thus restrict themselves to single attacks. You can move 10’ as a 5’ step with a DC 40 Tumble check if you must, which is a 7+ or so in mithral armor in an AMF, so switching your own position should be easy. If you have 15 ranks in Jump, it’s a 3+.
Continue with the Overpowering Assaults on the (prone?) caster. Your job is to kill him. A Druid/20 with 18 Con inherent has 180 hp or so. You’ll be doing 42 pts a hit, so he’s dead in five rounds, faster if he actually gets up or tries moving away (one round less per swing you get at him. Be faster if you had Power Attack.)
His animal companion is a non-factor. To attack you, it has to wade through at least one AoO, Robilar’s means another one (and if you have Knock-Down, there’s pretty much 100% probability it’s going to get knocked flat every turn, generating a third when it gets up). If it doesn't move, Defensive Sweep lets you pound it anyways. Every hit is 42 pts or a DC 52 Reflex save to Not Move. You’ll probably kill it before the caster, and definitely before it kills you.
If the druid dies first, then the Animal Companion is suddenly…not. It’s a 5HD dinosaur with normal stats wearing 1,000’s of gp in gear. It likely dies instantly as it’s extra HD and stat buffs evaporate, and accumulated damage kills it promptly. Hence, kill the caster.
To make this killing quicker, take Power Attack instead of Greater weapon spec. A Druid or cleric in Full (Dragonhide?) Plate + Shield is a Max AC of 23 or so. You will hit that every single swing in an AMF. Remember the chain/glaive is a two handed weapon, so PA is doubled with it, and then doubled again for Overpowering Assault once you hit. If they are Prone, that’s a ‘free’ +4 TH, and you are also getting +4 for your AoO later. A +4 Power Attack generates +16 Damage. Note that while you might be able to kill the caster faster by taking a full attack action on his prone arse (Note: if you take a Power Attack of 15, you still have +22 TH , meaning Auto-Hit…and for your AoO’s, too), since even with +5 BAB you’ll auto Hit AC 23, and just might be able to kill him off in two rounds…but you run the risk of letting his Animal Companion waltz around and breaking the lock.
Better safe then sorry.
Summary: Making this build required 12 feats, two of which were General (Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection). The latter is not necessary to the build, but comes in nice for taking buffed enemies down a very sudden peg in size, if they are casters. It also requires F/16 for Overpowering Assault, which makes Stand Still the Lock that it is.
Key Feats: Stand Still, Martial Stance (Thicket of blades), Hold the Line, and Mage Slayer, with PMP as a chaser. CQF is there for the inevitable Grab/Grapple attempts, which we welcome as a chance to do more dmg to the enemy. Defensive Sweep at high level punishes people for not moving, which generates more AoO.
Completely optional are WF, WS, MWM, GWF and GWS. Able Learner is there as a kicker…any fighter can afford the skill points if they want the Mage Slayer tree Feats.
Thus, SIX feats are left completely open and optional, if you are human. I included those in this build for simplicity, and because the key thing for this build is HITTING stuff…a guaranteed +4 TH if you fight for one round or fifty is key to this build, so no raging.
I didn’t pay much attention to getting what when, as long as I met the pre-reqs. Also, ‘wasting’ feats on the Spec tree took up Bonus slots at specific early levels.
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades works wonders on this build, because ALL movement provokes…very key for an AoO build. Note that this stance requires a level of 10 from the Fighter, and ONE Devoted Spirit Strike. Thus, the earliest the build can finish is F/16.
Other possible feats I considered:
Sidestep: Combined with Robilar’s gambit, Sidestep means that no one will ever attack you more then once if you don’t want them to. Take your AoO as a 10’ tumble step, and get out of their reach…but probably not out of yours. This is worth giving up GWS for.
Power Attack: For obvious reasons once they are down and prone, especially useful in an AM shell against unlucky spellcasters who have to suck up a BAB and Str penalty and Tripping weapon vs you. Worth swapping out GWF.
Occult Opportunist: I was notified of this feat by Howland Reed, which adds just about every magical action possible to the AoO trigger of the build. Specifically, Swift actions now trigger AoO, so you don't need to Ready actions against them.
Cleave: Well, being able to shuffle an Overwhelming Assault from one person to another is nice, once you kill them. Once you have Robilar’s, this is probably an okay feat to grab, as someone could literally be helping you butcher their friends every round. Also, you can put it on your weapon and save the feat.
Law Devotion (Complete Champion): Not totally sure on the pre-reqs, and would probably require a Lawful alignment. But having a +3 or higher bonus you can switch between AC, TH, or Dmg is worth tossing MWM and the Spec Tree, especially if you have Power Attack. 1 minute/day kind of a downer, however.
Expertise: Would require buying a +2 Int book to work in an AM field as the build stands, but gives a startlingly high non-magical AC, with potential for an even higher magical one.
Improved trip +Knock-Down: Getting this requires Expertise, and so Int 13 (so tying up 3 Optional Feats!!!). This isn’t a dedicated Trip build…it’s a dedicated Stand Still build. At lower levels, Improved Trip would be useful for generating extra attacks while pinning down opponents by tripping instead of using Stand Still, And getting Knock-Down will generate plenty of free Trip attacks. However, given that its much less useful against a whole lot of bigger monsters, this tactic should be untrained and abandoned in favor of a pure Stand Still/Overpowering Assault maneuver. I don’t CARE how big your anti-Trip modifier is…let’s see you make a DC 60 Reflex save. No? Then don’t move. And let me Defensive Sweep you dead.
This pairing of feats will probably result in a very good Caster lock, since you can effectively prevent lower Str+BAB individuals from ever moving out of their square, and then Defensive Sweep/Assault them to death. Combined with Defensive Sweep, this is a killing combo.
Superior Expertise: As above, but moreso. Hard to justify the extra feat, tho.
Martial Study (Shadow Stride): Teleport 50’ as a move Action. Level 18 requirement again. The range is limited, it only works once an encounter, but if you really have to get to or out of somewhere, it’s hard to beat. The move req combined with a Belt of Battle can take you right next to someone and let you Full Attack them, very useful. Gets around the ‘stick em in a forcecage and cloudkill them’ argument, too, and the gear moaning. I personally believe that at level 20 every character should have some means of dimensional travel available, preferably teleport, as there are far too many ways to kill people who don’t have it.
note that instead of getting this feat, you could buy a pair of Shadow Hands items for 15k that grant it, but said items won't work in an AMF, and the actual learned manuver will.
The highest level version of this maneuver would be the best, of course, but since Fighters don’t get a full IL, for some odd reason, it’s beyond their reach.
And why do the boots cost 75% of the helm that does the same thing? Weird.
Adaptive Style: This is only useful if I want to use more Maneuvers, and be able to refresh them, since Fighters don’t get a Refresh mechanism. Two key things to get would be Iron Heart Surge (to remove conditions…good bye negative levels, poisons, disease, daze, etc) and a healing maneuver (so I can heal out of combat without relying on casters). This could probably be done with two Martial Study Maneuvers replacing WF and WS, training and untraining back into the build. They’d simply have to be juggled into the higher levels with untraining. Note again, that once you HAVE the maneuver you want, you can untrain any prereqs and get something else. To do this, simply remove MWM, GWF and GWS, and arrange the build. Really, if you are considering this, then take One Level of Crusader, don't take Martial Study, and you get a better refresh mechanism, more strikes, Cha to Will Saves, delayed dmg pool, and a lower level stance, too.
Supernatural Opportunist: (Cite Archrpwer and Omen of peace for pointing this out): The pre-req means taking this feat ties up two optional feats, and the leery language leaves me wondering at balance. I mean, 'using a supernatural ability' could be an energy drain that's part of an attack, a medusa's 'always on' gaze weapon, or whenever Supernatural DR kicks in! If you use it as something against triggered Binder abilities, for example, it's balanced and probably underpowered since it will rarely come into play except against the few creatures that have pseudo-spelllike SU abilities. If you use it as RAW...well, then, it might be really really busted, and core to ANY Combat Reflexes build. By the way, it lets you have an AoO, but it does not INTERRUPT said SU ability.
Supernatural Instincts: The same as Super Opp. requires only Combat reflexes. Same as above. (Khan the Destroyer).
Precise Swing: This feat from the Eberron books eliminates miss chances from all cover except total cover. It's a General feat, however, but does a good job insuring that nothing but an absolute turtle interferes with your AoO swings.
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Other Notes: Any magical item which increases your ability to hit/dmg, your AC, increases your Reach, and increases your initiative is something to look at. You can fly, and Stand Still on flyers sends them into free fall. You have the Dex to be good with a ranged attack, and could blow feats on Warslings to use your Str for missile attacks and the like. You could swap in feats to get some mounted combat. Some Bracers of Archery and a good bow and you’re a decent archer, if not a Manyshot fool.
Any magical item which might be able to turn the area you threaten into difficult ground is a must to pick up.
If you don't want to carry Enlarge potions and Quaff them, Get Permanently Enlarged. It's cheap, and doesn't affect the build.
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You’ve got Six Feats to play with, Five if you aren’t human.
The build works very well as stands…it needs very little buffage (the Enlarge is for the Reach…). There is no other class that can as powerfully initiate a Stand Still Lockdown as the Fighter can, because of the Overwhelming Assault requirement sending the Reflex save into the stratosphere, and the absolute requirement that you must be able to hit the enemy. PMP is there for those enemies so buffed they think they cannot be hit. One SA gets rid of Righteous Might, the whole Polymorph/Shapechange chain, the Bite of WereX chain, Mage Armor, Prayer, Haste, Magical Vestment, Shield of Faith, Animal Growth, Nature’s Avatar, etc etc.
-----------------------------
YOU DO NOT “NEED” A SPIKED CHAIN. Short Haft and a reach weapon will do! A Glaive will do more dmg, can be set against a charge (which dovetails with your AoO feats!), and so forth. The Disarm bonus means nothing. Choosing instead Spiked Gauntlets means using Gaunts as your back up weapon, and remember that Piercing gaunts don't stack with a Slashing Halberd for MWM.
You will NOT slaughter the enemies with this build…pure dmg is average/decent. However, you should get a ton of full attack actions once you lock an enemy down…he’s not going to be able to get away. If you are worried about concealment or blinking, then pick up Pierce Magical Concealment and Blind Fighting, you have all the reqs.
In a group situation, this build sets up everyone for your secondary damage dealers, since you are a threatening fool and can flank like nobody’s business. Since the enemy is not going to be moving or casting if you threaten them, the rest of the party gets to pound away, and you deal relentless, continual damage to one person, and anyone who tries anything in your reach.
Defenses
Fort: Save is fine. A hero's feast a day keeps the poison and disease away.
Reflex: I have hp for this. If I need healing, cure belts, rings of healing, maneuvers, and vampiric augment crystals all do wonders for me. They are options for the build.
Will: Mind Blank. Since everyone has one at this level.
Getting trapped: Ring of blinking, or Boots of teleportation, or Shadow Stride feat, as you prefer and wish it.
Grappled: Oh, please try to grapple me. The average grapple check once the Assault is under way is going to be +78 or so, and you get 50 pts dmg for your trouble, too!
Tripped: Get up as a free action with Tumble DC 35. Not sure if AoO on free actions. Otherwise, might need to invest in counter-tripping, or blink away/port away. Prone Attack would be nice, but the Lightning Reflexes req is odious. Alternatively, just attack while prone…it’s only –4 TH, and doesn’t affect your Knockdown or Stand Still’s at all.
Pure melee: They should never reach me, ideally. Stand Still’s Reflex save should be waaaay too high for anyone short of Epic.
Spellcasters: Lock them down, or AMF the lock, as need be. Just remember…you don’t trigger the AMF until they are inside it with you. With Knockdown, they should never be able to move out of it.
Stealth: You still threaten any squares they enter. They aren’t going to be able to get away.
Fliers: You can fly, if need be. And unless they’ve perfect flight, Stand Still sends them into a killer spiral. A Free 20d6 dmg is always good…and what’s funnier is you get AoO’s as they pass thru the squares below you on the way down.
Ranged: The best defense against a ranged attack is always a higher AC. Get a Shield effect, do Defensive Fighting, and possibly pick up expertise. Ideally, you want to move up on ranged attackers, lock them in place, and AoO them to death. Disarm their quivers, not their bows...no arrows means who cares about the bow? And then you get an AoO when they go for the ammo.
===========================
Note For DM's: You need to clarify the effect of Thicket of Blades vs. Tumble and the X-By Attacks stuff. I personally believe that the Thicket trumps a measley DC 15 Tumble check (restoring the balance of things, as it were), but the X-by Attacks feats would require you to have a readied action to stop/trip them.
===========================
====================
Optimizing
The Build stands as totally useful as soon as you pick up Thicket of Blades. It matures at level 16 with Overpowering Assault making Stand Still a lock effect. At 20, Defensive Sweep punishes anyone subjected to the Stand Still, with Deft Opportunist contributing to the fact that you can hit ANYONE (which is key, let Assault do the damage!).
Crusader: If you want to delay one level, take a level of Crusader instead of Martial Study at level 5 or 6. You likely won't use the strikes much, if at all, or the other stance...but Foehammer is decent in its own way, and at least you get a Refresh Mechanism. If you want to be serious about the strikes, make sure they are all from one discipline so you can get that discipline added to your weapon for another net +2 to hit when not Assaulting. Other benefits are Cha to Will saves (yay), 5 pt delayed dmg pool for +1/+1, and possibly a healing manuver or two. At the least, if you go White Raven (recommended), you have something to use on a charge.
Psychic Warrior: Although you might want Able Learner access to the skill list earlier, you should probably save any Psy Warrior levels until 17. You can pick up Deft Oppotune and Defensive Sweep in two levels, and grab another feat at 20 to use with your psionics. Deflective Armor is a good choice (Armor to touch AC while Focused). You do lose a point of attack, but you might make up for it with Psychic Blow or something.
Also, remember your Mage Slayer Feats mean a -8 to your Psy Warrior Manifester level, so you can't use any Manifester powers unless you swap out those feats.
==============================
And there you have it. No caster alive is going to be able to do what you do. Unless you are dead before their action, all you have to do is get right next to them and they are dead.
No caster can do this. No caster can say “Stay There” to a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and watch them stew, and from out of their reach, too.
And guess what? I haven’t even dipped into base 36 Str Firbolg polymorph cheese to do this. He can take apart the biggest, baddest, meanest buffed Animal Companion you ever saw like Swiss Cheese, then go around it to kill its boss.
Can you scout? Well, Flying boots + a cheap ring of invis means, kinda. Can you divine? No. Are you a social maven? No..Intimidating, maybe. But you can Able Learner at least core competency. Can you heal others? Riiiiight. Can you buff? Potions at the ready, boots on feet, all the buffs you really need. If you do get buffed, you are a monster. If you don’t, you’re just a terror.
Can other classes make this build? A Psychic Warrior has enough feats to do it…but he won’t have six left over, and he won’t be able to get the kind of Stand Still Lock a Fighter can. His BAB is going to be horrible, and he won’t be able to use any of his Psi stuff in an AMF, which means a real caster lock is going to be almost impossible since they can buff up higher then he can. And the -8 to his casting level for the Anti-Mage feats would kill him.
A Barbarian can’t manage all the feats. He could get an average Reflex Save of 40ish for his Stand Still, but I’m sorry, that just doesn’t do the job as well. The only real damage difference, assuming they get the same gear, is his rage...which is about the same dmg as my spec tree.
No way a Caster can manage all the feats needed to do this build reliably AND be a good dedicated caster. Especially with the –8 hit to caster level for the caster lock feats.
A Warblade or Crusader could get close to doing it, but they’ll be feat starved in the end. However, I’ll point out that a Warblade gets an awesome capstone of two Stances at once. He might not be able to get the Stand Still numbers, but remember he adds his Int to all AoO’s for TH/Dmg. He’s going to get off huge dmg/AoO if built for it, and with Power Attack might almost rival Overwhelming Assault.
Hmm. A Warblade using an Iron Heart/Devoted Spirit weapon, in two stances, has a weapon that is +9 TH/+3 dmg. With AoO’s, a starting 12 Int would be a +6/+6 bonus on AoO (suitably boosted). If he could finagle Deft Opportunist, that would be +10/+6 on AoO. Power attack for 10 would be +20 dmg on AoO. Would work nice in a AMF too. So his attacks would be at +39, +29 dmg. Not as good on AoO’s, but better for normal attacks, to some extent.
The Fighter is still better, however. And it's because of his class abilities...11 bonus feats.
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Comments and suggestions welcome. Any poo-pooing about how he can't master a non-Melee role isn't worth the typing...this is a Melee build, with 5/6 feats worth of flexibility in it, more then sufficient to customize to taste.
===Aelryinth
This is a perfect example of an optimized fighter 20 build.
It doves incredibly with Hold the Line, which is actually hilarious!
To Wit...when someone enters a square you threaten, you get an AoO. You can use that AoO to perform a 5' step. With Tumble, 5's steps are 10' steps.
You can thus back right out of their threat range, or to one side. they've already committed to movement. As long as they don't have a 15' reach, this also means that inside an AMF, one or two monsters with 10' reach will literally never be able to touch you. You can take a 5' step and shift the AMF with you, and get out of their reach...and they can't do anything about it.
What's even funnier, is you could take a 5' step and swallow them in the AMF. Bamf, they are gone as long as they and the field are sharing space, but duration is still ticking. You could even 'lure' one into position that way.
So, yeah, Sidestep should be in the build, annoying all those pesky summoned creatures a caster might have around, and getting you out of any full attacker's melee range, if you like.
Once the caster is dead, the summoned creatures are, of course, irrelevant.
Against an ubercharger, this should almost be laughable. He charges in, enters your threat range...and you step out of his. His movement ends with no one to attack. On your turn, you bring down the Assault, then on his the Stand Still lock, and all he can resort to is missile fire...which provokes an AoO from you.
If you readied against his Charge, this gets even more hilarious. With a halberd, you'll do double dmg with your Readied attack, and be able to move out of his reach. If for some reason he doesn't have a Reach Weapon, or he has a weapon that has ONLY reach, you can then move inside his reach or outside it. Either way, then you do double dmg to him again, OR you can smack him with a Standstill...that also does double dmg against a charge.
yes, Consider Sidestep a shoe-in for the build. It drops damage by 2 pts, but Gauntlets of War would take care of that in all but an AM Field...and Sidestep makes the AMF field lock even worse. I can effectively get in the way of anyone seeking to leave the field by taking 5' steps to their 10' steps when they try to enter a threatened square...and since they can't change their movement, they provoke an AoO when they enter my square.
Yeah, this could be a thinking fighter's really useful build.
==Aelryinth
Make it a warforged and take the first fighter sub level (will cost you a feat) for another +3 init. Celerity is trouble, but +14 to init is pretty decent.
Celerity for Auto-first is broken as it stands. However, what it simply means is that now EVERYONE needs an item of Celerity. Then it goes right back down to Init again.
Is celerity a divination spell? if so, it wouldn't activate against someone with Mind Blank up...there's no threat there to read.
warforged one/sub would probably cost me TWO feats...I assume you are talking bonded weapon/item familiar. Remember I also have to spend a feat on Armor, and Adamantine body is really nothing to talk about at higher levels...especially with the movement hit. You also can't make Tumble checks in Heavy Armor, so I'd be restricted to the rather subpar Mithral Body.
However, if the other Construct advantages are to your liking, warforged is another excellent option. Note that ABle Learner in no way is needed for the build. It's just useful.
==Aelryinth
Emphasis on the AMF builds for the caster lock. I think the Crusader is going to get pretty feat starved. Ditto a Warblade.
===Aelryinth
In any event, I'd still like to see a build. I'm not concerned about Immortal Fortitude...with Overwhelming assault, thats a DC 56 Fort save. he's got a lot of feats to stuff in there with his manuvers...and he only gets 7 or 8.
I think adding a set of Soulforge Bracers+1 would eliminate the Con dmg, as well as all the other negative/necro effects. Also, being in those other stances means he's not in thicket, which is very bad for a tripping/AoO/Stand Still build.
Also, you can't use manuvers while trying to get someone to Stand Still. The Crusader is good at making monsters pay attention to him, but I'm trying to get them to stand in just one place...and that includes casters.
===Aelryinth
The thing you really need is defense against ranged. I suppose you can close though, eventually.
Yeah, ranged is a slight hole.
two options there are wearing a buckler+5 for incidental AC, or the Animated Shield. If you slap on the Augment Crystal vs Missiles to the Shield,it doubles your shield bonus against missiles.
So, in the above build, you'd be sitting on a cozy 50 AC vs archers, 53 with Defensive Fighting.
the objective is to close...at long range, this is done via teleports, haste improved flying, and/or the Run action. Once in my threat range, the archer is probably not a threat.
If using a halberd and not a spiked chain, I also have the option of sundering his quiver. No arrows = useless bow. he's not going to be a melee threat to me, more then likely, with his feats spent on archery abilities.
==Aelryinth
Total Concealment : You can't make an attack of opportunity against someone with total concealment even if you know what square they occupy (SRD)
Total Cover : You can't make an attack of opportunity against someone with total cover (SRD)
This would mean a True Seeing item and a way to ignore all cover (e.g., from a Tower Shield) would be in order to really plug those 2 holes.
Also,
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
This would seem to indicate that moving doesn't provoke multiple times, as it would be considered the one provoking action. So I'm not sure how you're getting 3 AoO if they move away. I am open to being convinced on this (A 20th level fighter *ought* to be able to pull this off, I feel), but I'm not sure if it's kosher.
One more thing - you can't retrain away a feat that's a prerequisite for another feat. Martial Stance has Martial Study as a prereq, so no dice getting rid of it, I'm afraid.
Ranged is definitely a problem, as is the Conjurers Abrupt Jaunt PHBII alternate class feature (immediate action (sp) that can interrupt your movement into melee range). Dimensional Jaunt (the Reserve Feat) is a (su) standard action that does not provoke, so until you get that AMF up right away, it's also a means of escape. Admittedly, it's not fantastic unless backed up with some sort of barrier , as it's range is limited, but it helps if followed with a quickened Dim Door or Wall of Force or something.
Finally, there are some great spells that make this a lot harder. A simple Phantom Steed (or the uber Druid version : Phantom Stag ) gives movement that is hard to keep up with, and many nasty spells can hamper your own movement and keep you out of melee range while they rain nasty death upon you. Of course, any melee build suffers from that, which is why melee don't work alone.. They're best in a team that includes casters and ranged characters to lay down "suppressive fire" and get the fighter more easily into range. Nonetheless, the Prismatic Wall/Sphere spells (and Iot7FV veils) make this build a lot harder, as they are impervious to True Seeing and thus don't allow AoO (due to total concealment). They're also really nasty to try to cross.
Still - excellent build, covering many bases with a pretty useful schtick.
A couple of problems :
Total Concealment : You can't make an attack of opportunity against someone with total concealment even if you know what square they occupy (SRD)
Pierce Magical Concealment would also do the trick, or expanded senses, as you note below.
Total Cover : You can't make an attack of opportunity against someone with total cover (SRD)
This would mean a True Seeing item and a way to ignore all cover (e.g., from a Tower Shield) would be in order to really plug those 2 holes.
The Tower Shield could be a problem. Probably have to try Disarming it, or just trying tripping the wielder with Assault slaps.
Also,
This would seem to indicate that moving doesn't provoke multiple times, as it would be considered the one provoking action. So I'm not sure how you're getting 3 AoO if they move away. I am open to being convinced on this (A 20th level fighter *ought* to be able to pull this off, I feel), but I'm not sure if it's kosher.
Well, he gets up - one AoO. He enters a square I threaten...another AoO. He leaves a square I threaten - 3 AoO. I think that Thicket of Blades means ANY square left provokes the AoO...unlike normally, where it only provokes once overall. If so, that's another AoO. Actually two, because Hold the Line would trigger again, depending on the language.
Happily, I don't see casters having this problem, or most monsters. Tower Shields seem pretty uncommon, too.
One more thing - you can't retrain away a feat that's a prerequisite for another feat. Martial Stance has Martial Study as a prereq, so no dice getting rid of it, I'm afraid.
Ah! Actually, that's FINE...because the manuver could then be changed, as long as I have other pre-reqs. Simplest would be changing it to Shadow Stride. Note I need the feat by name, but not the manuver...so I can change the manuver! which also adds Hide as a Class skill, heh...
Ranged is definitely a problem, as is the Conjurers Abrupt Jaunt PHBII alternate class feature (immediate action (sp) that can interrupt your movement into melee range). Dimensional Jaunt (the Reserve Feat) is a (su) standard action that does not provoke, so until you get that AMF up right away, it's also a means of escape. Admittedly, it's not fantastic unless backed up with some sort of barrier , as it's range is limited, but it helps if followed with a quickened Dim Door or Wall of Force or something.
Yes, getting the caster into the AMF is extremely vital.
Finally, there are some great spells that make this a lot harder. A simple Phantom Steed (or the uber Druid version : Phantom Stag ) gives movement that is hard to keep up with, and many nasty spells can hamper your own movement and keep you out of melee range while they rain nasty death upon you. Of course, any melee build suffers from that, which is why melee don't work alone.. They're best in a team that includes casters and ranged characters to lay down "suppressive fire" and get the fighter more easily into range. Nonetheless, the Prismatic Wall/Sphere spells (and Iot7FV veils) make this build a lot harder, as they are impervious to True Seeing and thus don't allow AoO (due to total concealment). They're also really nasty to try to cross.
In such cases where I cannot pass, I'd simply leave via teleport. alternatively, dig out the cloak of colors from 1E and waltz through the wall would probably suprise them...ha!
Thank you for the comments. It seems it'd take a very specific build to take him out, and his overall usefulness is not in question.
Still - excellent build, covering many bases with a pretty useful schtick
I must admit - this build has made me re-evaluate the Mage-Slayer feat chain. I actually don't like the flavour of the feats - they actually seem strangely over-powered somehow. Perhaps because there's no contest. Like much of D&D design, it's either-or. You either Can't Cast Defensively, or you can (and, lets face it, pretty easily if you can). Your target is either concealed, or you can completely ignore it. Either they have the AC buffs, or they're completely dispelled !
Either the caster is over-powered, or he's a commoner in a silly hat.
There just aren't enough contested checks in this game.
And honestly, the ability to ignore miss-chance due to darkness is plain silly, IMHO.
This build wasn't actually made for Optimized Arcane casters, like the super spec conjuror who just might be able to stop him from ever getting close...it was made to take out Druids, their Animal Companions, and those who like to say "I can buff to replace any melee person! Therefore, Fighters suck and we don't need them!"
No caster can buff to do what this build does...and it can take out just about any melee caster who doesn't rely on the Tower Shield. Honestly, what would have to happen with that Tower Shield is likely a Sunder on it, if I'm using a Halberd...at least, hopefully! Might have to full attack it.
===Aerlyinth
(To the guy who started/posted that fighter build)I'm not sold on GWF/GWS - you can get more benefit by trading the two feats for one Melee Weapon Mastery.
Well, you could...but not with one weapon. MWM doesn't stack with itself...so you'd have to pick a dif dmg type that you might use.
Still, I understand. That's why I label them as optional. Note they are the first feats to go if you've something else you want more.
===Aelryinth
Your my hero
Just wanted somethign that could clean a Druid's clock. I think this does the job pretty well...and would be welcome in just about any party, too!
===Aelryinth
Well, you could...but not with one weapon. MWM doesn't stack with itself...so you'd have to pick a dif dmg type that you might use.
Still, I understand. That's why I label them as optional. Note they are the first feats to go if you've something else you want more.
===Aelryinth
Oh, I didn't see MWM in the "General Feats" section. Gotcha.
I just wanted to ask, are antimagic items you use to kill casters something custom or they're actually somewhere in DMG/whatever?
Sure, it's expensive, but can it be stopped?
Anyhow, awesome build, man.
A really really good build! That Standstill lock is particularly monstrous (in a good sense)
I just wanted to ask, are antimagic items you use to kill casters something custom or they're actually somewhere in DMG/whatever?
The Torc is in Underdark, and is usable 1/day.
Best,
David
Hold the Line does not effect anyone who moves into your square, it lets you get an AoO against people who charge. I'm not sure how much that screws things up.
[b]Well, he gets up - one AoO. He enters a square I threaten...another AoO. He leaves a square I threaten - 3 AoO. I think that Thicket of Blades means ANY square left provokes the AoO...unlike normally, where it only provokes once overall. If so, that's another AoO. Actually two, because Hold the Line would trigger again, depending on the language.
Not to pick nits or disparage others work, but no, this doesn't work like that.
The text of Thicket of Blades changes what provokes an AoO from a normal move to 'any sort of movement' including 5 ft steps, and prevents them from using withdraw to treat the square they are in from being threatened by you. Not for every square they move into.
Hold the Line specifically only works against charges. Still very good with Stand Still. Still should be in the build, just doesn't work quite like that.
Also, vis a vis retraining, you can't trade out foehammer for shadow stride. Thicket of Blades requires a Devoted Spirit maneuver, and you aren't eligible for lvl 5 maneuvers at lvl 18.
The combo of mage slayer + AoO feats wasn't unknown to me, but I think this is the farthest I've seen anyone take it. My tabletop's party's crusader uses it specifically against all the baddies with teleport. There's a lot of them at higher level.
One feat conspicuously missing is Defensive Sweep (PBH II). Hillariously, if they don't move, you get an AoO against them. I don't know if there's room in this build for it, since a prereq is BAB +15.
Couple of things to consider:
Does this have any sort of protection from Move By Attack? I think that a MBA can get through all of this without provoking, but I'm not sure.
Does this have any sort of defense against immediate or swift action spells? It seems like a quickened dim. door followed by any number of no save or die spells (like say trap the soul) or non mind affecting will save or dies, or the bog standard timestop/gate.
One last thing. My google-fu fails. Where can I find Overpowering Assault?
Overpowering Attack, Stand Still, Close-Quarters Fighting. The latter two are among the best combat feats in the game, and it is only because the first is a Fighter-only class feature that this build rocks so well with so many Fighter levels, as it turns SS and CQF from good to awesome. The Decisive Strike variant does something similar to monks.
Now, let's boost this build by cutting four levels of fighter for two levels of monk and two levels of psychic warrior.
EDIT: I should mention the Sidestep+Hold the Line is very cool too. I also ought to clarify that I must congratulate Aelyrinth on his wise feat selection.
Wild Talent
Heavy Armor Optimization
Deflective Armor
Maybe Shield Spec / Shield Ward
Should help against the ranged and ranged-touch attacks. Anyone with heavy armor should consider those if they can.
Again we come to an ability that says "moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender".
What trumps what? Thicket of blades? Why? It takes 3 feats, a BAB requirement and a Dex requirement to get Spring Attack, yet a single Martial Maneuver trumps it ?
Again - we have these all-or-nothing type abilities (many of which revolve around AoO, I noticed), with few clear rules to determine between them.
Reading DrObviousSo's interpretation of Thicket of Blades, I'm more and more inclined to read it as specifically and exclusively adding the 5' step and Withdraw actions to the list of movements that provoke. If it were to affect tumbling or spring attack, it would have explicitly mentioned them.
Moreover, nothing overrules the specific rule that says "movement through multiple threatened squares only provokes one AoO".
Basically, if you already took an AoO for a movement through your threatened area, it doesn't matter if it was because they were entering, or leaving any one of your squares, you only get one shot.
Really nice build, but is there anything you can do to stop a Wizard casting a Sudden Extended Invoke Magic followed by a Quickened Sanctum Teleport ?
Sure, it's expensive, but can it be stopped?
Anyhow, awesome build, man.
This won't work because you only get one swift action per turn. Against any wizard with quickened magic, your only defenses are to a) win the initiative and hopefully get the AM Lock and b) ready an action against any spellcasting. Since he only gets one swift spell, AoO the normal spell and ready attack the swift one.
Once you have him in an AM lock, its mostly irrelevant. Also note, you've actually got spellcraft ranks, so you can identify quickened spells and respond to the tactic!
===Aelryinth
Spring attack
Again we come to an ability that says "moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender".
What trumps what? Thicket of blades? Why? It takes 3 feats, a BAB requirement and a Dex requirement to get Spring Attack, yet a single Martial Maneuver trumps it ?
Again - we have these all-or-nothing type abilities (many of which revolve around AoO, I noticed), with few clear rules to determine between them.
Reading DrObviousSo's interpretation of Thicket of Blades, I'm more and more inclined to read it as specifically and exclusively adding the 5' step and Withdraw actions to the list of movements that provoke. If it were to affect tumbling or spring attack, it would have explicitly mentioned them.
Moreover, nothing overrules the specific rule that says "movement through multiple threatened squares only provokes one AoO".
Basically, if you already took an AoO for a movement through your threatened area, it doesn't matter if it was because they were entering, or leaving any one of your squares, you only get one shot.
I'd probably let Spring Attack slide through, but not tumble. Tumble is basically considered normal movement, and feats generally trump skills. The stance is the equal of a 3rd level spell...tumble is not.
Actually the Hold the Line AoO is a different trigger condition, so you do get the extra one. Movement OUT of a square is one AoO...movement (charging) into a square is another.
==Aelryinth
With three of your general feats ...
Wild Talent
Heavy Armor Optimization
Deflective Armor
Maybe Shield Spec / Shield Ward
Should help against the ranged and ranged-touch attacks. Anyone with heavy armor should consider those if they can.
I'd love to, but they aren't essential to the build...they'd be in addition/elective to it, to improve the defensive ability (mostly vs spells). The best defense against ranged attacks is simply a higher AC, so Defensive Fighting or Expertise would do the job, or more magical items...like a ring of Shield or something.
again, Swap out the feats you don't want for it.
==Aelryinth
Let's be clear on what makes this build awesome.
Overpowering Attack, Stand Still, Close-Quarters Fighting. The latter two are among the best combat feats in the game, and it is only because the first is a Fighter-only class feature that this build rocks so well with so many Fighter levels, as it turns SS and CQF from good to awesome. The Decisive Strike variant does something similar to monks.
Now, let's boost this build by cutting four levels of fighter for two levels of monk and two levels of psychic warrior.
EDIT: I should mention the Sidestep+Hold the Line is very cool too. I also ought to clarify that I must congratulate Aelyrinth on his wise feat selection.
Thanks!
Hold the Line only vs Charge...well, drat to some extent.
Cutting 4 levels of Fighter means the build matures at 20 instead of 16.
I made an error on Thicket of Blades, it's crusder 3. Since you only need an IL of 5, you could acquire Thicket of Blades at level 10!!! that means full build maturity at 16 with OVerpowering Assault.
Also, you'd lose two off your BAB, for a net gain of one feat. The monk req would probably be better off with Swordsage, as at least then you'd get Wis in light armor (and could buff your lousy Wis to make up for the armor deficiency at high levels).
If i were to suggest a 1 level 'dip', it'd be into Crusader. This would get you the Devoted SPirit manuver you need. Martial Stance has a requirement of a martial manuver, NOT Martial Study. however, the manuver does have to be from the discipline you take Martial Stance in.
Note this is different from the stance itself. The stance only checks for prereqs when you first get it...after that you are welcome to train stuff away. Untrain by the UA variant is harsher for feats (why? manuvers=feats...) and doesn't let you get away with it.
A level of Crusader would get you Cha to Will saves, the delayed dmg pool, a first level stance alternative, and a couple of manuvers. Since you wouldn't have to blow a feat on martial study, you wouldn't miss the feat you lost at level 20. It moves maturity of the class to level 17, but that's not bad. Still a lot better then waiting for 20 for a lock.
I'd rather not wait til 20 with 4 other class levels because that means you are Uber right about when you ditch your character forever, instead of being able to enjoy it for at least 4 high level combat levels. Since Stand Still is based on a Reflex Save, and that tends to be a good save for most melee style monsters (if due to stats then anything), Stand Still goes from maybe working (a little better then Trip?) to the Lock we have.
===Aelryinth
Wouldn't a Whip-Dagger be better then a Spiked Chain for this? Also, Halberd + Armor Spikes removes the need for Short-Haft, freeing a feet.
Hold the Line does not effect anyone who moves into your square, it lets you get an AoO against people who charge. I'm not sure how much that screws things up.
A whip dagger is considered a missile weapon, isn't it? That provokes AoO. Also, damage is a consideration, as is the size of the weapon.
Halberd + Armor SPikes would work, but it would mean yet another weapon to enchant, and WF/GWF wouldn't synergize, nor would MWM (halberd is slahsinig, vs Piercing). While this build might not do uber dmg, Hitting people is ALL Important! Let your Assault do the double dmg,and the AoO's stack it up.
For the person who didn't know, Overpowering Attack (assault? heh) is the F/16 substitution effect from the PHB2. Instead of taking a full attack, you make one attack and it deals double damage. This also affects every successive attack you make until your next round...so force them AoO's!
===Aelryinth
6- Knockdown (free trip attacks if hit for 10+)
is that the 3.0 feat knock-down?... didn't expect that to be viable.
Not to pick nits or disparage others work, but no, this doesn't work like that.
The text of Thicket of Blades changes what provokes an AoO from a normal move to 'any sort of movement' including 5 ft steps, and prevents them from using withdraw to treat the square they are in from being threatened by you. Not for every square they move into.
Hold the Line specifically only works against charges. Still very good with Stand Still. Still should be in the build, just doesn't work quite like that.
Also, vis a vis retraining, you can't trade out foehammer for shadow stride. Thicket of Blades requires a Devoted Spirit maneuver, and you aren't eligible for lvl 5 maneuvers at lvl 18.
The combo of mage slayer + AoO feats wasn't unknown to me, but I think this is the farthest I've seen anyone take it. My tabletop's party's crusader uses it specifically against all the baddies with teleport. There's a lot of them at higher level.
One feat conspicuously missing is Defensive Sweep (PBH II). Hillariously, if they don't move, you get an AoO against them. I don't know if there's room in this build for it, since a prereq is BAB +15.
Couple of things to consider:
Does this have any sort of protection from Move By Attack? I think that a MBA can get through all of this without provoking, but I'm not sure.
Does this have any sort of defense against immediate or swift action spells? It seems like a quickened dim. door followed by any number of no save or die spells (like say trap the soul) or non mind affecting will save or dies, or the bog standard timestop/gate.
One last thing. My google-fu fails. Where can I find Overpowering Assault?
Defensive Sweep definitely has to go in, then. More AoO's are a good thing. Once you get the Lock, punish them for it.
The best defensive against the x-By/Spring Attack combo is a ready action followed, and hopefully Knocking them down. A better defense would be some ability to treat all threatened areas as difficult ground...this would really hose people trying to move around you, and render a Spring Attacker unable to get into and out of range (he'd need 80' of move if you have 20' of reach).
Overpowering Attack/Assault is the F/16 sub level in PHB2. One reason to go with pure fighter levels is so the build matures at 16, not at level 20.
Also, I made an error on the level of Thicket...it's Cru/3, requiring 5 IL, which is level 2. Btw, a 5th level manuver requires IL 9, which is f/18...so you could do it at 18 if needed.
Thanks for the comments everyone! I'll go back and modify the original post some to take suggestions into account.
===Aelryinth
is that the 3.0 feat knock-down?... didn't expect that to be viable.
If you don't consider it viable, don't put it in. remember, this is not a tripping build! Trips just 'naturally happen' becasue of it, and they are available at low levels.
Ah, hell, just double checked Knock-Down. Improved Trip is a pre-req. Hmm, another feat shot. well, it will help against a caster lock, esp in an AMF, so in it goes. Kinda shoots down some build viability, but that's okay. I'll stick the pair in as electives, and insert Defensive Sweep.
===Aelryinth
Expertise, Imp Trip and Knockdown combo is now optional.
Law Devotion would replace MWM and/or two spec feats if you can get it. Very nice feat.
Defensive Sweep added to the build (capstone). Thicket of Blades and Martial Study now occur much earlier.
Edited out feat errors, inserted note for Thickets clarification from DM's vs Tumble and X-by Attacks, included notes on optimizing with Crusader and Psy warrior.
===Aelryinth
This won't work because you only get one swift action per turn. Against any wizard with quickened magic, your only defenses are to a) win the initiative and hopefully get the AM Lock and b) ready an action against any spellcasting. Since he only gets one swift spell, AoO the normal spell and ready attack the swift one.
Once you have him in an AM lock, its mostly irrelevant. Also note, you've actually got spellcraft ranks, so you can identify quickened spells and respond to the tactic!
===Aelryinth
I wasn't clear, sorry. It would take 2 rounds, which is why it's Sudden Extended (or you use a Greater Rod of Extend Spell).
I'd probably let Spring Attack slide through, but not tumble. Tumble is basically considered normal movement, and feats generally trump skills. The stance is the equal of a 3rd level spell...tumble is not.
Actually the Hold the Line AoO is a different trigger condition, so you do get the extra one. Movement OUT of a square is one AoO...movement (charging) into a square is another.
Note this is different from the stance itself. The stance only checks for prereqs when you first get it...after that you are welcome to train stuff away. Untrain by the UA variant is harsher for feats (why? manuvers=feats...) and doesn't let you get away with it.
I think you're being pretty liberal with the rules here. Tumble and Spring Attack work exactly the same way. If this is just an optimization exercise, that needs to be taken into account. If this is a proposed build for a game, then the DM needs to be taken into account.
I assumed you were changing your maneuver via the UA retraining rules, because there is no other way to change that maneuver. The feat specifically says it can never be changed. Unless I'm missing something.
Otherwise, it comes back to the celerity thing...if it's absolutely uninterruptable, it's an auto-win...which makes for a great dueling tactic but not neccessarily a great build.
===Aelryinth
If it takes two rounds, then he should be in range and locked down, either by ready actions or being in an AMF (can't invoke an action in an AMF, can he?)
Otherwise, it comes back to the celerity thing...if it's absolutely uninterruptable, it's an auto-win...which makes for a great dueling tactic but not neccessarily a great build.
===Aelryinth
What? No. Invoke Magic is a 9th (!) level Swift Action spell that lets you cast a single spell (of 4th level or lower) in an AMF field after you cast it (in the same round) (and it can be cast inside an AMF, yes). Extended, that's another round. So once he casts an Extended Invoke Magic, he casts a Sanctum Quickened Teleport (4th level spell because of Sanctum Spell, Quickened to a 9th level slot) the following round.
Costs 2 9th level slots, but a good combo nonetheless...
And before you ask, yes, I've had an NPC walk around with those spells ready.
What? No. Invoke Magic is a 9th (!) level Swift Action spell that lets you cast a single spell (of 4th level or lower) in an AMF field after you cast it (in the same round) (and it can be cast inside an AMF, yes). Extended, that's another round. So once he casts an Extended Invoke Magic, he casts a Sanctum Quickened Teleport (4th level spell because of Sanctum Spell, Quickened to a 9th level slot) the following round.
Costs 2 9th level slots, but a good combo nonetheless...
And before you ask, yes, I've had an NPC walk around with those spells ready.
Isn't Dimension Door simpler than Sanctum Teleport ?
Craft Contingent Spell : Prismatic Sphere when an enemy approaches within their reach.
As far as I can tell, since AMFs can't penetrate Prismatic Spheres, that ought to do it. Expensive, but possible.
Also - Initiate of the 7fold veil could probably survive as well, since the Indigo and Violet veils prevent all effects from bypassing them, including the Spiked chain and the AMF, I expect.
That said, an alternative is knockback + rampaging bullrush (works because of thicket of blades). Then you would need to fit rage in though.
Thanks!
Hold the Line only vs Charge...well, drat to some extent.
Robilar's Gambit + Evasive Reflexes is almost as good.
Cutting 4 levels of Fighter means the build matures at 20 instead of 16.
Not if we take the first 16 levels to Fighter town in order to get Overpowering Attack as soon as possible, and start dipping out afterwards. A level of Crusader at 17 picks up level 5 maneuvers!
I made an error on Thicket of Blades, it's crusder 3. Since you only need an IL of 5, you could acquire Thicket of Blades at level 10!!! that means full build maturity at 16 with OVerpowering Assault.
I usually dipped into Crusader at 9 in my Molester builds.
Also, you'd lose two off your BAB, for a net gain of one feat. The monk req would probably be better off with Swordsage, as at least then you'd get Wis in light armor (and could buff your lousy Wis to make up for the armor deficiency at high levels).
To be frank, if I were going to do Monk I'd ditch fighter altogether and make it work with Decisive Strike from the very beginning. Not as tough a build but it gets the money combo much faster.
If i were to suggest a 1 level 'dip', it'd be into Crusader. This would get you the Devoted SPirit manuver you need. Martial Stance has a requirement of a martial manuver, NOT Martial Study. however, the manuver does have to be from the discipline you take Martial Stance in.
Note this is different from the stance itself. The stance only checks for prereqs when you first get it...after that you are welcome to train stuff away. Untrain by the UA variant is harsher for feats (why? manuvers=feats...) and doesn't let you get away with it.
A level of Crusader would get you Cha to Will saves, the delayed dmg pool, a first level stance alternative, and a couple of manuvers. Since you wouldn't have to blow a feat on martial study, you wouldn't miss the feat you lost at level 20. It moves maturity of the class to level 17, but that's not bad. Still a lot better then waiting for 20 for a lock.
Gotta love that crusader dip.
I'd rather not wait til 20 with 4 other class levels because that means you are Uber right about when you ditch your character forever, instead of being able to enjoy it for at least 4 high level combat levels. Since Stand Still is based on a Reflex Save, and that tends to be a good save for most melee style monsters (if due to stats then anything), Stand Still goes from maybe working (a little better then Trip?) to the Lock we have.
===Aelryinth
The problem is not the wait to 20 (we want Overpowering Attack immediately and will start dipping afterwards, thank you). It's the wait up until level 16. Thicket of Blades and Stand Still and the like are nice, but frankly you're getting Thicket of Blades after the Crusader's been enjoying it for a while now. Close-Quarters Fighting is an amazing feat but before Overpowering Assault there are still big fat monsters who will bat your measly bonus aside and grapple you anyways. The Greater Weapon Specialization chain is nice once you have Overpowering Assault (GWS translates into a +8 on Stand Still saves or to grapple checks with Close-Quarters Fighting), but before that, it's a little dead weight.
My first issue with the build is that it rocks at low levels because all melee types do, and it rocks with Overpowering Attack, but there's gonna be a stretch inbetween where you will HURT and there won't be enough in the way of magic items to save you.
My second issue is that Overpowering Attack, sweet as it is, has one big drawback - it takes a full-round action. A very good mobile foe will not stay in one place long enough to give you that. We need some sort of really good, really fast lockdown ability to counter this, or Evasive Reflexes to chase their asses around the battlefield.
Personally, I'd ditch EWP: Spiked Shain OR Short Haft in favor of Improved Unarmed Strike, then toss everything from Weapon Focus to Piercing Weapon Mastery in favor of Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Snap Kick (BIG ONE, it triggers off of AoOs), Evasive Reflexes, and Robilar's Gambit as soon as we can take it. Later on we can take Supernatural Reflexes and supernatural abilities trigger AoOs too - assuming we're still in fighter after 16 of course, which I'm not seeing as necessary.
What? No. Invoke Magic is a 9th (!) level Swift Action spell that lets you cast a single spell (of 4th level or lower) in an AMF field after you cast it (in the same round) (and it can be cast inside an AMF, yes). Extended, that's another round. So once he casts an Extended Invoke Magic, he casts a Sanctum Quickened Teleport (4th level spell because of Sanctum Spell, Quickened to a 9th level slot) the following round.
Costs 2 9th level slots, but a good combo nonetheless...
And before you ask, yes, I've had an NPC walk around with those spells ready.
It would come down to readied actions. You can still interrupt a swift effect. How to ready an action + get the AMF off would be interesting. Belt of Battle to the rescue!
Does Extend work on spells with absolute spell durations? I'd have to see Invoke Spell. Decent tactic, however.
==Aelryinth
another idea :
Craft Contingent Spell : Prismatic Sphere when an enemy approaches within their reach.
As far as I can tell, since AMFs can't penetrate Prismatic Spheres, that ought to do it. Expensive, but possible.
Also - Initiate of the 7fold veil could probably survive as well, since the Indigo and Violet veils prevent all effects from bypassing them, including the Spiked chain and the AMF, I expect.
I don't think you can base a contingency on an OPPONENT'S reach. Within YOUR reach, certainly. Also, you have to determine what's an enemy, or a mouse underfoot could set it off. Most likely you'd need a command word or something, or an action like getting hit...which might be too late.
Initiate 7V still has to get the Veils off. Once a Sphere isup, of course, there's a problem...but that just means its time for the Fighter to head around the corner, kick back, pop a brew, and wait for the thing to come down.
====Aelryinth
would the trick twisted charge from complete scoundrel be useful to this build? what about a level of exotic weapon master to get exotic reach. "When wielding an exotic weapon with reach the character may make an attack of oppotunity against a foe that provokes such an attack even if the foe has cover(but not total cover)" Or do you need a trick that allows AoO against a foe with total cover?
Exotic AoO would make a great dip ability. Would shut down a tower shields cover defense. I'm just not that worried about it, due to the rarity of actually using a tower shield!
Don't know what twisted charge does...charge in something other then a straight line? Nice but not vital.
===Aelryinth
Robilar's Gambit + Evasive Reflexes is almost as good.
Not if we take the first 16 levels to Fighter town in order to get Overpowering Attack as soon as possible, and start dipping out afterwards. A level of Crusader at 17 picks up level 5 maneuvers!
I usually dipped into Crusader at 9 in my Molester builds.
To be frank, if I were going to do Monk I'd ditch fighter altogether and make it work with Decisive Strike from the very beginning. Not as tough a build but it gets the money combo much faster.
Gotta love that crusader dip.
The problem is not the wait to 20 (we want Overpowering Attack immediately and will start dipping afterwards, thank you). It's the wait up until level 16. Thicket of Blades and Stand Still and the like are nice, but frankly you're getting Thicket of Blades after the Crusader's been enjoying it for a while now. Close-Quarters Fighting is an amazing feat but before Overpowering Assault there are still big fat monsters who will bat your measly bonus aside and grapple you anyways. The Greater Weapon Specialization chain is nice once you have Overpowering Assault (GWS translates into a +8 on Stand Still saves or to grapple checks with Close-Quarters Fighting), but before that, it's a little dead weight.
My first issue with the build is that it rocks at low levels because all melee types do, and it rocks with Overpowering Attack, but there's gonna be a stretch inbetween where you will HURT and there won't be enough in the way of magic items to save you.
Stand Still won't be as powerful, because the Reflex save won't be as uber...at those levels, you are probably better off with a trip combo, or just doing dmg. On the other hand, an Enlarged Fighter with a Halberd+4 is doing 2-16 +14 or so dmg about then, and Reflex 24 or Stand Still isn't that bad about 10th level.
CQF has no problems for the fighter at any level he fights at. His grapple base is high...basically all he has to do is overcome size mods, for the most part. Adding +20 to his check AND doing dmg to somethign at the same time is a pretty good way to stay out of a grapple even at low levels. Remember, at mid levels, stuff generally doesn't have high BAB, it just gets big and kinda strong. 20 pts of dmg is a BIG buffer to a grapple check.
And on top of it, you won't have Freedom of movement (too pricey) and Escape Artist is going to be WAAAAAY lower, so it's the best defense out there. Remember, you're not trying to PROVOKE grabs...you just want to punish them.
My second issue is that Overpowering Attack, sweet as it is, has one big drawback - it takes a full-round action. A very good mobile foe will not stay in one place long enough to give you that. We need some sort of really good, really fast lockdown ability to counter this, or Evasive Reflexes to chase their asses around the battlefield.
Actually, i think OVerpowering Attack is a Full Attack. Full Round is much worse.
Tried looking up Evasive Reflexes. Couldn't find it. What's it do?
Personally, I'd ditch EWP: Spiked Shain OR Short Haft in favor of Improved Unarmed Strike, then toss everything from Weapon Focus to Piercing Weapon Mastery in favor of Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Snap Kick (BIG ONE, it triggers off of AoOs), Evasive Reflexes, and Robilar's Gambit as soon as we can take it. Later on we can take Supernatural Reflexes and supernatural abilities trigger AoOs too - assuming we're still in fighter after 16 of course, which I'm not seeing as necessary.
One huge problem with US...your Reach is pathetic. We want a reach weapon so we can do the lock on multiple foes in a large area, or from outside the range of someone who DOES rely on, say, IUS. It doesn't matter if you can Robilar me back if I'm standing 10' outside your reach. It also works well in dominating the entire area of an AMF.
Thank you for the comments!
===Aelryinth
You should try to work out something to counter Ironheart Surge if possible, shuts down your AMF and is actually something a caster might want to have.
HAH. Now that is funny. And if any mage build wants to blow the feats on learning it, fine by me. It's going to be so rare, I can't rock-paper-scissors everything. I'd love to see a mage blow feats on Iron Heart manuvers just to get this feat, or warblade levels. heh!
==Aelryinth
I think you're being pretty liberal with the rules here. Tumble and Spring Attack work exactly the same way. If this is just an optimization exercise, that needs to be taken into account. If this is a proposed build for a game, then the DM needs to be taken into account.
I assumed you were changing your maneuver via the UA retraining rules, because there is no other way to change that maneuver. The feat specifically says it can never be changed. Unless I'm missing something.
No, I'm not being liberal. I'm saying that feats trump skills all the time (Scent trumps Hide, as does Blind Sense; Dark Stalker trumps blind sense, tremorsense, blindsight, etc)
Tumble is a special form of normal movement, and the stance stops all normal movement. Spring Attack is actually a feat. So I'd let the feat trump a piddly DC 15 tumble check, sure enough.
Seriously, tho - what it comes down to is Thicket of Blades is an awesome feat/stance to take...it allows a Fighter to actually threaten anything moving around them. compare the number of fighters with this feat to the number of people with tumble, and then not only is it not broken, but you wonder why more of the Pure Melee don't have a similar ability (the closest being the knight with his difficult terrain).
==Aelryinth
Stand Still won't be as powerful, because the Reflex save won't be as uber...at those levels, you are probably better off with a trip combo, or just doing dmg. On the other hand, an Enlarged Fighter with a Halberd+4 is doing 2-16 +14 or so dmg about then, and Reflex 24 or Stand Still isn't that bad about 10th level.
At least you have the choice between tripping or Stand Still.
CQF has no problems for the fighter at any level he fights at. His grapple base is high...basically all he has to do is overcome size mods, for the most part. Adding +20 to his check AND doing dmg to somethign at the same time is a pretty good way to stay out of a grapple even at low levels. Remember, at mid levels, stuff generally doesn't have high BAB, it just gets big and kinda strong. 20 pts of dmg is a BIG buffer to a grapple check.
There are still the big fatties who will have bigger grapple mods than that even with your CQF. You need it to stand a chance at all, is what I'm saying. I've optimized Psywar builds who could take that CQF and still come out 10, 20 points of bonus ahead of you on grappling before Overpowering Attack.
And on top of it, you won't have Freedom of movement (too pricey) and Escape Artist is going to be WAAAAAY lower, so it's the best defense out there. Remember, you're not trying to PROVOKE grabs...you just want to punish them.
I still worry about what could grapple you anyways.
Actually, i think OVerpowering Attack is a Full Attack. Full Round is much worse.
It's a full round action, not a full attack. So no, you can't pounce with it.
Tried looking up Evasive Reflexes. Couldn't find it. What's it do?
Trade an AoO for a 5 ft. step. It's in ToB
One huge problem with US...your Reach is pathetic. We want a reach weapon so we can do the lock on multiple foes in a large area, or from outside the range of someone who DOES rely on, say, IUS. It doesn't matter if you can Robilar me back if I'm standing 10' outside your reach. It also works well in dominating the entire area of an AMF.
Ah, forgot to say that you'd be wielding a reach weapon (a normal one like the glaive or ranseur) in addition to threatening adjacent squares unarmed.
Though once you bring in ToB, everybody (you included) gets tasty items like Shadow Hands (for Shadow Jaunt/Stride/...), so they don't actually have go through your threatened squares to get to you. This leaves Robilar, which may or may not be enough.
There are also the controversial "no AoO on a charge" maneuvers from White Raven - nobody really knows how they interact with Thicket of Blades as far as I can remember (note: I don't want to resurrect that debate).
Snap Kick (BIG ONE, it triggers off of AoOs)
I know this is now generally so well accepted as to be useless to argue against ... but I do wonder where does this come from?
By the RAW it triggers on any type of melee attack, but for obvious reasons no one is using it like that and we generally only allow the snap kick to occur on actions which involve a melee attack. Why is there an exception made for AoOs which are not actions either though? Is this based on a custserv or Sage answer I missed?
I don't think you can base a contingency on an OPPONENT'S reach. Within YOUR reach, certainly. Also, you have to determine what's an enemy, or a mouse underfoot could set it off. Most likely you'd need a command word or something, or an action like getting hit...which might be too late.
Initiate 7V still has to get the Veils off. Once a Sphere isup, of course, there's a problem...but that just means its time for the Fighter to head around the corner, kick back, pop a brew, and wait for the thing to come down.
====Aelryinth
The Craft Contingency works on any kind of triggering event at all. Being within a hostiles reach is perfectly legal. Determination of hostility, is subjective, so a mouse won't trigger it - but neither would a traitorous rogue that you believed was an ally. It works like the contingency spell, which basically says the more complex the trigger, the more likely it will fail. "Within an enemy's reach" isn't that complex. (That said, this would be a massive gp sink to keep up. Any time anyone charged you, your contingent spell would go off, and you'd need to re-craft it.. as a 9th level spell , that's quite expensive, and I can't imagine too many wizards bothering with this kind of tactic on that kind of trigger.. meaning the command word is more likely. Even so, you can speak as a free action, so...)
Initiate of the 7fold veil gets the ability to bring up a veil as an immediate action, so that's covered.
I was under the impression that the veils were one-way (i.e. the caster can cross them without penalty). But that bears investigation. It's possible that this was an assumption of mine. Even if they're not one-way, the caster still has the option of buffing further, with gate and other spells that the fighter might have some problems with. There are only so many AoO you can have, limited by your Dex bonus. A bunch of lower level 'called' creatures (instead of one big nasty one) might be a better solution for the wizard at that point.
[b]Well, he gets up - one AoO. He enters a square I threaten...another AoO. He leaves a square I threaten - 3 AoO. I think that Thicket of Blades means ANY square left provokes the AoO...unlike normally, where it only provokes once overall. If so, that's another AoO. Actually two, because Hold the Line would trigger again, depending on the language.
I'm sure I'm just missing it, but how do you get an AoO for entering a square? -- Hold the Line only kicks in on Charges, which he's prolly not doing after standing up
I'm sure I'm just missing it, but how do you get an AoO for entering a square? -- Hold the Line only kicks in on Charges, which he's prolly not doing after standing up
already pointed out, dielzen!
===Aelryinth
At least you have the choice between tripping or Stand Still.
There are still the big fatties who will have bigger grapple mods than that even with your CQF. You need it to stand a chance at all, is what I'm saying. I've optimized Psywar builds who could take that CQF and still come out 10, 20 points of bonus ahead of you on grappling before Overpowering Attack.
I still worry about what could grapple you anyways.
It's a full round action, not a full attack. So no, you can't pounce with it.
Trade an AoO for a 5 ft. step. It's in ToB
Ah, forgot to say that you'd be wielding a reach weapon (a normal one like the glaive or ranseur) in addition to threatening adjacent squares unarmed.
Argh, you made me go and look up Sidestep again.
Pre-req...Dodge and Mobility. So that's two MORE blown feats just to get ONE of the cooler options.
Sidestep lets you take an extra 5' step once a round when you get an AoO. Good for a Robilar give and go.
Evasive Reflexes is the one I was thinking of, where you swap your AoO to get out of range of on attack.
Both are nice. Too many feats! I am really starting to loathe this hamhanded system of multiple idiotic feat reqs. It's bad enough how many useful feats are out there, but forcing you suck up multiple reqs to use them is...bad. Why does an AoO consuming feat use Dodge and mobility for reqs?!?
As for Psy Warrior builds, those all rely on uber buffing (size) for max dmg. Trust me, if I went with Polymorph builds and the like, Grapple still isn't a problem.
The best defense against a GraBber is, of course, to make them Stand Still and stay out of their reach if possible. And, of course, all their buffs are moot in an AM Field, which is one of the core parts of this build...I want to take down uber buffers not reliant on skill. In such cases against a Psy Warrior, pop the AM and waltz in on them. Psy Focus and the like all go away (unless they are extraordinary), as do the buffs...and then -5 BAb gives me a strict advantage by level, especially if they skimp on str and rely on size/shape altering.
I did notice that 15' reach is base for Huge humanoid builds. So, if there was an easy way to hit Huge at later levels and get to a 30' reach, that would be useful.
==Aelryinth
Nice build !
Though once you bring in ToB, everybody (you included) gets tasty items like Shadow Hands (for Shadow Jaunt/Stride/...), so they don't actually have go through your threatened squares to get to you. This leaves Robilar, which may or may not be enough.
There are also the controversial "no AoO on a charge" maneuvers from White Raven - nobody really knows how they interact with Thicket of Blades as far as I can remember (note: I don't want to resurrect that debate).
The ones who use Shadow Hands aren't a problem...you generally don't ubercharge with that trick, and I WANT you in my reach. Once I can make you Stand Still, you are probably meat on the plate, especially at higher levels.
===Aelryinth
Command word items don't trigger on speech, it's a part of the activation but there is more to it (a standard action to be precise).
This isn't a command word item. It's a triggering condition for a spell crafted into a contingency with Craft Contingent Spell.
That's a big difference, since triggering conditions for Contingency happen immediately, rather than only on your turn.
PS: I'm ALL for the fighter Monkey stomping the holy (or unholy) crap out of a druid...just something that popped into my head.
I don't have ToB, is there any substitute for this thicket of blades?
Would huge size suffice as a solution being they can't use the withdraw maneuver without still getting an attack of opportunity on them?
Also, where are the feats knock-down and close quarters fighting found?
Thanks.
Something I was thinking about..I haven't looked into it to much though but maybe some of you guys might be able to take this further in the mean time...there's that spell, Spark of magic out of Spell Compendium, lets you cast up to ..3rd level spells iI tihnk in dead or anti-magic areas...and theres a feat in CS (anohter player I know is using it) which lets you do a slight of hand to "hide" spell casting...so could technicall get a spell off in this guys anti-magic field w/o him knowing about it thus know AoO...only up to 3rd level but still...
PS: I'm ALL for the fighter Monkey stomping the holy (or unholy) crap out of a druid...just something that popped into my head.
Sounds like a lower level variant of the spell up above (Invoke Magic). As for that feat to conceal spells (from Com Adven, i think), how many mages are actually going to bother to take it?
In theory, it's nice...but because it's a feat, not a spell, a wizard can't just grab and take it like he can his favorite incantation to solve a pesky problem.
===Aelryinth
Hey,
I don't have ToB, is there any substitute for this thicket of blades?
Would huge size suffice as a solution being they can't use the withdraw maneuver without still getting an attack of opportunity on them?
Also, where are the feats knock-down and close quarters fighting found?
Thanks.
Wow, a sub for thicket of blades. hrn. No, size Huge won't do it. the thicket means any moving out of threatened square provokes AoO, no matter how small. That means they stand still...or you make them stand still. The closest thing I can think of is a Knight's ability to force the area he's threatened to be difficult ground, which would double movement cost to get out of. That would shut down some movement, but not all.
I use THIS for looking up most feats...it is a couple books behind at present.
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl
==Aelryinth
Wait...you are "dismissing" Conceal Spellcasting cause it's a feat? Well, first off it's a SKill Trick and the prereq's are pretty low...slight of hand 5 Ranks being the only one any caster wouldn't have already..and EVERY caster should have it! Not only does it prevent AoO but prevnets other casters from counterspelling you, it's a GREAT skill trick to have if your a caster with very little investment (Espically if your an int based caster). Aside from that there is "Back on your Feet" and Nimble stand which let you get on your feet w/o provoking AoO but these I will agree, are a bit far fetched for a caster to have (Though tumble is always a good skill to have).
Conceal spellcasting is a feat from ComAdv. It must be woefully underpowered if you can power it with a skill trick.
Likewise instant stand, instantly duplicated with a skill trick, not to mention a DC 35 tumble check or so.
I actually know about the feat because Celeste has it in the latest episode of Dungeon (makes sense for eladrin who go about in disguise to have it). Wasn't aware of the skill trick.
On the other hand, 5 cross class ranks doesn't sound like much, until you look at a mage's paltry 2 skill points a level. Forget the fact that wizards are smart...that's a crappy skill point number, and wizards tend to like investing in knowledge skills as it plays off their int bonus. Concentration, Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (the Planes) and Spellcraft eat up 4 skill points per level (i.e. a 15 Int skill point limit!), and the horrible thing about mages is that their big Int raises come at late levels, where the skill points are not retroactive (look, Ma, +5 inherent bonus to Int! I get TWO more skill points this level, not for the 18 before it!!!).
Conceal spellcasting sounds like something for a bard or arcane rogue. I've never heard it touted by the optimizers here.
Now, I'm not saying it won't work! I'm saying it's very unlikely to see the light of day in a combat build.
I imagine if your mages all start off with 18 or 20 Int it's a bit easier to swallow the skill point hit, is all.
==Aelryinth
I did notice that 15' reach is base for Huge humanoid builds. So, if there was an easy way to hit Huge at later levels and get to a 30' reach, that would be useful.
==Aelryinth
The easiest I know of would be a level of PsiWar with a dorje of expansion at ML 7 or a way to get to ML7 with the PsiWar which is kinda hard to do in this build.
I assure you that Conceal Spellcasting is a Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel, page 85 (Literally looking at it right now).
There's a skill trick and there's a feat too. They do basicly the same but the feat is at will whereas the skill trick is limited to 1 per encounter/minute.
I think this is a great idea for a build, but you could make a much stronger build with many Warblade or Crusader levels rather than doing something as silly as Fighter 20, since a properly prepared caster still wins, provided you don't win initiative and kill them in the first round.
Not likely to happen.
Ditto the Iron HEart Surge thing. Druids are already feat starved through 9 or 12 levels. the likelihood they'll blow two feats on Iron Heart Surge is pretty low, considering how useless the feat is going to be 99% of the time.
====
As for making a stronger buld with a pure crusader or warblade, go ahead and post it.
The first you are going to find is that you are feat starved, and there really are no manuvers that compensate for the feats I've selected. Also, remember this build still has basically SIX FEATS you can go and pick yourself, to take it into another direction. In other words, almost as many feats as any other class would get for their ENTIRE BUILD.
That's pretty strong.
So, while I appreciate the sentiment for TO9S, unless you can post a truly powerful 20 level build that will shame this one, don't make the blanket statement. I agree that if you want to optimize, a couple of levels into Crusader make the build more efficient....but that's all.
There's been some pretty good optimizers look this over, and while they agree a dip of a couple levels here and there after 16 could be useful, and definitely they'd probably swap around the spec tree I included, they aren't proclaiming this is underpowered.
Overwhelming Attack is very hard to beat with this kind of build.
===aelryinth
Monk 2 (Decisive Strike variant) / Psychic Warrior 14 / Crusader 2 / Swordsage 2
13 feats* :
Psionic Fist
Unavoidable Strike
Psionic Meditation
(as in your build)
Combat Reflexes
Deft Opportunist
Stand Still
Close Quarters Fighting
Robilar's Gambit
Defensive Sweep
... 4 left --> optional : Intuitive Strike (exalted) or Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade (to reduce MAD) + see the ones you proposed
* not counting the monk bonus feats nor the swordsage free Weapon Focus.
Powers :
Expansion
Hustle
Maneuvers :
Shadow Stride
some Setting Sun counters (if possible)
Thicket of Blades
1 healing strike
...
+ Decisive strike as a touch attack
+ powers
+ a few maneuvers
+ better will save (not all Will saves are tied to mind-affecting powers)
- BAB +16 only (=> use precog, offensive ?)
- hit points (=> use vigor ?)
- unarmed strikes are harder to enchant**
- the main problem is that the AoOs are made at a much lower AB (average BAB and -2 from Decisive strike)
I didn't take the Mage Slayer feats since they're obviously a no-no for a PsyWar, and anyway you rely more on the AMF item than on them.
Quite clearly, it isn't as good as your build is when it comes to locking people down . But it's also a lot more versatile. (And I'm sure more experienced COers could do much better)
If you can use Tashalatora(PsyWar) and make it work with Decisive Strike, you're also better off.
** edit: it would actually be smarter to go the Psionic Weapon + Deep Impact route with a quarterstaff : now you can enchant it easily and you can also use Power Attack efficiently.
Not hardly. the number of arcane spellcasters who'd waste a build on Manuvers is very, very low. They can already teleport...why waste a precious feat on a once/encounter ability with limiited range JUST so you can escape an AMF field?
Not likely to happen.
Ditto the Iron HEart Surge thing. Druids are already feat starved through 9 or 12 levels. the likelihood they'll blow two feats on Iron Heart Surge is pretty low, considering how useless the feat is going to be 99% of the time.
====
As for making a stronger buld with a pure crusader or warblade, go ahead and post it.
The first you are going to find is that you are feat starved, and there really are no manuvers that compensate for the feats I've selected. Also, remember this build still has basically SIX FEATS you can go and pick yourself, to take it into another direction. In other words, almost as many feats as any other class would get for their ENTIRE BUILD.
That's pretty strong.
So, while I appreciate the sentiment for TO9S, unless you can post a truly powerful 20 level build that will shame this one, don't make the blanket statement. I agree that if you want to optimize, a couple of levels into Crusader make the build more efficient....but that's all.
There's been some pretty good optimizers look this over, and while they agree a dip of a couple levels here and there after 16 could be useful, and definitely they'd probably swap around the spec tree I included, they aren't proclaiming this is underpowered.
Overwhelming Attack is very hard to beat with this kind of build.
===aelryinth
A couple things... first of all, if your opponent is optimized for fighting a duel, like yours seems to be, they will have anti-anti magic shell abilities. It's true that most low level druids and casters are feat starved, but taking a feat at level 15 or 18 is more reasonable. Honestly, while standstill is neat at lower levels, your real trick here is having a anti-magic shell; If a caster had an item that said "all your class abilities (or in your case, feats) are useless" then your fighter would be equally worthless against them.
Secondly, your character loses badly to an enemy with Standstill and more reach than you do. Omen_of_Peace's build, for example, can expand to a large size and kill you while you sit there, just as useless as an unprepared mage.
While I believe a totally martial build is better than Fighter 20, it's easier to make the argument that a Fighter 14, Warblade 6 is much better than your Fighter 20.
The Fighter 14, Warblade 6 can take all the same feats that you can take. She gets 1 less feat than you (and one of her feats is chosen from a limited list, which includes Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, and she could take Foehammer if she really wants to).
In return the Fighter/Warblade gets 2 stances and 4 readied maneuvers, one of which can be up to level 7. She could go defensive, and take things like Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades (what do you do against touch attacks?), and Iron Heart Surge, or more offensive with moves like White Raven Tactics, Covering Strike, or Ancient Mountain Hammer.
In addition the Fighter/Warblade gets Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Int to Reflex saves and Critical chance, a better fort save, more hit points, more skill points, and more class skills. Unlike you, if she takes maneuvers like Shadow Stride through feats she can get them back during combat. That's a lot for 1 feat, especially when the marginal value of feats tends to worsen as you get more of them.
So 50+ damage should also include any DR # a prospective target has. A goal might be 70+ damage.
Save or die every hit.
Additionally, as you pointed out, Concentration checks are 23 ranks + d20 + presumed Con bonus.
A custom Item of +10A / +10B / +10C , etc. , would obviously get a Con check by the damage coming in.
How many casters are running with +40 or so Con check items?
Am I the only one thinking a little Hulking Hurler Junior is on tap ?!
Now just to get to the caster quicker and/or more consistently.
If you can use Tashalatora(PsyWar) and make it work with Decisive Strike, you're also better off.
If you can get Tashalatora to advance Decisive Strike, you're made; use Tempest_Stormwind's [thread=820651]Supermonk[/thread] trick to enjoy 20th level monk striking and 13th level Decisive Strike with only 6 levels in monk and 7 in Fist of Zuoken or Zerth Cenobite. That leaves you free for 7 levels of Crusader; to get the best IL, I'd actually use 4 of crusader and 3 of Uncanny Trickster progressing Crusader. A Monk6/Ubermonk PrC of your choice7/Crusader4/Uncanny Trickster3 could come out with slightly less feats than the Lockdown fighter but gets to the meat of the build considerably faster, with awesome psi buffs and fat unarmed damage on top.
As for that 4 class Psy Warrior build...ugh! You gave up at least 7 BAB!~ For a lock, one of the big things is to hit. I maxed out TH instead of dmg.
If uber reach is a problem, you got six feats to go and get more reach.
Warblade mixed in gets some nice versatility, but will have problems pulling off the feat combo, especially since it matures with a class ability for fighters he doesn't get, and he won't be able to combine strikes and Stand Still. An extra 8d8 dmg sounds impressive, until you realize its +32 points...the same as making a second attack with your halberd, for the most part. Also, that Warblade gets two stances...one of them being level 1, and he has to blow a feat to get Thicket, just like me.
As for other benefits of the Warblade over the Fighter...don't get me started! I did a big writeup on Regdar's over it.
Sure, there's a give and take. ThE AMF tactic is used when he has to shut down a caster or uber buffer. Most of the time, it should not be neccessary. Mage Slayer can lock down everyone from teleporting fiends to casters. It's a very useful feat. And all those tactics being centered for use on me work better on things that can't prevent a caster from using spells.
This isn't a build exactly optimized for a duel, although if you stuck in some ranged punch he'd be okay. It's made to be effective against standard caster tactics, and to be able to control a battlefield and do consistent damage. A true specialist in the tactic could likely do better, especially once you start adding templates, races, other magic items and such things to the mix. I went with human for a reason...to keep it simple...and I stayed pretty much to feats everyone could access and had heard about.
===Aelryinth
Sure, there's a give and take. ThE AMF tactic is used when he has to shut down a caster or uber buffer. Most of the time, it should not be neccessary. Mage Slayer can lock down everyone from teleporting fiends to casters. It's a very useful feat. And all those tactics being centered for use on me work better on things that can't prevent a caster from using spells.
Fiends generally teleport using slas, which are not affected by Mage Slayer. You could put a Binding ability in your melee weapon, though, which prevents all teleporting magic from working for the person hit for 10 minutes, no save. It ruins nicely all those Contingencies "teleport home if I am hit" builds ;)
Otherwise you have a nice build. Magic concelment can be handled with the Hatran Mask of True Sight (costs 75k, but it is better than the Gem of Seeing because it is a constant effect, although it is not slotless) if you can't have Pierce Magical Concealment.
Not certain of what Decisive Strike does. If it's something like Wraithstrike...well, that's about as cheesy as the Spot vS AC check for a Touch Attack feat at high level. Invest in a Spot buffer and make Spot Checks all day for touch attacks.
It does (almost) the same as Overpowering Attack at level 1 for monks, but only with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
It's also in the PHB2.As for that 4 class Psy Warrior build...ugh! You gave up at least 7 BAB!~ For a lock, one of the big things is to hit. I maxed out TH instead of dmg.
The BAB is +14 (+15 using partial BAB). Precognition, Offensive gives a bonus up to +5. Sure, it isn't very optimized, but it was just to show a different way to reach similar results.
Sure, there's a give and take. ThE AMF tactic is used when he has to shut down a caster or uber buffer. Most of the time, it should not be neccessary. Mage Slayer can lock down everyone from teleporting fiends to casters. It's a very useful feat. And all those tactics being centered for use on me work better on things that can't prevent a caster from using spells.
Quickened teleportation spells still suffer no AoO, right ? Nor do boots of teleportation, or Shadow Hands.
As I see it, your build is amazing when the AMF item is available and casters don't have access to Craft Contingent Spells. Even if that feat is not available, any high-level caster will likely include AMFs in the conditions of its contingency (if allowed to), so the locking won't work on arcane casters (who can also disjunct your items), archivists and clerics with the Time domain.
Without the AMF item, the build is "just" very good.
Great concept Aels.
So 50+ damage should also include any DR # a prospective target has. A goal might be 70+ damage.
Save or die every hit.
Additionally, as you pointed out, Concentration checks are 23 ranks + d20 + presumed Con bonus.
A custom Item of +10A / +10B / +10C , etc. , would obviously get a Con check by the damage coming in.
How many casters are running with +40 or so Con check items?
Am I the only one thinking a little Hulking Hurler Junior is on tap ?!
Now just to get to the caster quicker and/or more consistently.
Shadow striking is assumed for the default chain to deal with DR. And yes, forcing massive dmg saves is nice, although since its only DC 15, I expect it will only happen at a nat 1 at that level.
Dunno, most mages seem to think that they will never, ever have to make concentration checks at that level, because they all seem to have 'get out of jail free spells'. Why blow the money on Con checks you won't ever have to make?
===Aelryinth
As for evasive reflexes, I agree that it would trump this, as it generates additional movement out of thin air that doesn't fall under the normal movement rules. However, the Lock is still pretty effective, because ER still only allows a 5' step, the attacker isn't using the AoO to fight, and they still can't move normally. And, of course, unless they can get out of my range, that 5' step still is going to trigger an AoO, which the second step will be for a double dmg swat.
Sudden Leap does what? It's not in the feat compendium I normally access.
==Aelryinth
Thanks, RT, I hadn't seen this one. I actually had your Tashalatoran monk in mind when I added that post-scriptum.
It does (almost) the same as Overpowering Attack at level 1 for monks, but only with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
The BAB is +14 (+15 using partial BAB). Precognition, Offensive gives a bonus up to +5. Sure, it isn't very optimized, but it was just to show a different way to reach similar results.
Quickened teleportation spells still suffer no AoO, right ? Nor do boots of teleportation, or Shadow Hands.
As I see it, your build is amazing when the AMF item is available and casters don't have access to Craft Contingent Spells. Even if that feat is not available, any high-level caster will likely include AMFs in the conditions of its contingency (if allowed to), so the locking won't work on arcane casters (who can also disjunct your items), archivists and clerics with the Time domain.
Without the AMF item, the build is "just" very good.
I don't expect casters to have boots when they have spells. It's the typical caster attitude. Same with the shadow hands manuver...it blows a precious feat, and their spells are better. Quickened Teleport is generally only a problem at 17+, takes up a precious 9th level slot, and would basically force me to take a ready action to disrupt it. Shouldn't have to deal with it more then once or twice, tops, and the caster still has to hit a reflex save in the 30 area.
Better is to have the AMF encompass them and n ot worry about quickened spells at all.
Oh, and for the problem of the AMF moving...it's centered on a torc Lockdown is wearing about his neck. It moves with him. So if he flies up to a flying wizard (or over top of him) and sets it off, they both go falling.
Guess who has more hit points?
===Aerlyinth
Fiends generally teleport using slas, which are not affected by Mage Slayer. You could put a Binding ability in your melee weapon, though, which prevents all teleporting magic from working for the person hit for 10 minutes, no save. It ruins nicely all those Contingencies "teleport home if I am hit" builds ;)
Otherwise you have a nice build. Magic concelment can be handled with the Hatran Mask of True Sight (costs 75k, but it is better than the Gem of Seeing because it is a constant effect, although it is not slotless) if you can't have Pierce Magical Concealment.
SLA's qualify Fiends as spellcasters, which means I can disrupt their actions (you notice how they all have huge conc modifiers?) and mage slayer will key off them (basic combat rules in the SRD verify that you treat SLA's just like spellcasting, the only difference is that you can't Counterspell them). Binding sounds like something that should be built into an Augment crystal...but useful. I imagine they get a save against the effect?
===Aelryinth
Sounds like a lower level variant of the spell up above (Invoke Magic). As for that feat to conceal spells (from Com Adven, i think), how many mages are actually going to bother to take it?
In theory, it's nice...but because it's a feat, not a spell, a wizard can't just grab and take it like he can his favorite incantation to solve a pesky problem.
===Aelryinth
The feat you are talking about I don't know, but there is a trick out of the Complete Scoundrel that lets you make a Sleight of Hand roll to make your spell invisible. Then you just use 2 skill points instead of a feat slot.
The feat you are talking about I don't know, but there is a trick out of the Complete Scoundrel that lets you make a Sleight of Hand roll to make your spell invisible. Then you just use 2 skill points instead of a feat slot.
yes,
Yes, they noted that above. Just shows what people think of feats if skill tricks can duplicate them.
Also, is Greater Anticipate Teleport a Divination? If so, Mind Blank would trump it, would it not?
===Aelryinth
Also, is Greater Anticipate Teleport a Divination? If so, Mind Blank would trump it, would it not?
Nope, it's abjuration. I don't know of any way to get around it.
They aren't listed as such in the SRD or PHB. Maybe there is something I am missing?
This may seem like a silly question, but are halberds reach weapons?
Nope, they aren't. Good catch. I didn't even notice that.
Okay, gonna have to rewrite that as, hmm, glaives?
===Aelryinth
Nope, it's abjuration. I don't know of any way to get around it.
It kills scry and die and demon nonsense, nonetheless. It's a great spell then, don't much care if it nerfs one aspect of my build i'd rather not have to use, anyways.
===Aelryinth
Guisarmes are trip and reach weapons.
Right, but this isn't a devoted trip build. If you want to devote 3 slots to Knockdown, Guisarme is probably a better choice then Glaive. Very nice catch, btw.
===Aelryinth
I don't expect casters to have boots when they have spells. It's the typical caster attitude. Same with the shadow hands manuver...it blows a precious feat, and their spells are better. Quickened Teleport is generally only a problem at 17+, takes up a precious 9th level slot, and would basically force me to take a ready action to disrupt it. Shouldn't have to deal with it more then once or twice, tops, and the caster still has to hit a reflex save in the 30 area.
Shadow Hands : you get Shadow Stride (Teleport 50' as a move action, 1/encounter) for 15000gp. I don't know many divine casters who wouldn't get it, and even arcane casters at higher levels since they rarely have use for move actions. (Or at the very least the 3000gp Shadow Hands that allow teleportation as a standard action)
There are 2nd level individual teleportation spells (Dimension Hop in the PHB2, Dimensional Leap in MoE), easy to Quicken.
Better is to have the AMF encompass them and n ot worry about quickened spells at all.
So we agree that you rely on the AMF item.
Oh, and for the problem of the AMF moving...it's centered on a torc Lockdown is wearing about his neck. It moves with him. So if he flies up to a flying wizard (or over top of him) and sets it off, they both go falling.
Guess who has more hit points?
*cough* The druid, who depends only on Wis and Con. :P
How are you taking Weapon Focus (assuming you're taking it for the Spiked Chain), at level one, when you don't gain proficiency with it til level two?
You probably should switch them round, or Imp Init and EWP:Spiked Chain.
Shadow Hands : you get Shadow Stride (Teleport 50' as a move action, 1/encounter) for 15000gp. I don't know many divine casters who wouldn't get it, and even arcane casters at higher levels since they rarely have use for move actions. (Or at the very least the 3000gp Shadow Hands that allow teleportation as a standard action)
There are 2nd level individual teleportation spells (Dimension Hop in the PHB2, Dimensional Leap in MoE), easy to Quicken.
15K is nice, but I never see it included in builds, because it's a waste of cash for them. Also, keep in mind that this won't work in an AMF, the only reason they'd take it...because it's a magical item, and it'd be non-magical in an AMF!
So we agree that you rely on the AMF item.
No, we agree that AMF is massively useful against casters, who are the only ones I'd bother to use it against. Every melee should have one. Saying I rely on AMF is laughable...it's nowhere near as important as saying, "Casters rely on their spells." For the right enemy, the right weapon.
*cough* The druid, who depends only on Wis and Con. :P
The Druid, who starts with 14 Con and a lower HD then me. In an AMF, he at best at HP = me, and there's no way he's going to match Lock's damage output without Wildshape or uber buffing. He's just a semi-competent warrior with lousy physical stats and a subpar weapon selection...if he even bothers to carry one.
==Aelryinth
Quick question about the original build...
How are you taking Weapon Focus (assuming you're taking it for the Spiked Chain), at level one, when you don't gain proficiency with it til level two?
You probably should switch them round, or Imp Init and EWP:Spiked Chain.
Another nice catch.
how I wish Fighter weapon focus was equal to the cleric domain one, where they get Focus and Prof all in one...
I'm not going to adjust it, however, on the premise that you don't NEED spiked chain, and if your Weapon Focus is for the wrong weapon, you can retrain it via UA rules at the same time as you take the Chain. if you take Glaive, you are all good.
===Aelryinth
Technically, I could do a chain shirt, but the net AC would be the same. +1 Armor/-1 Dex going from chain shirt to bp.
===Aelryinth
Taoist, It'll still work on 5' steppers, because a 5' step is a 'free' move action that you can only use when you don't get a move action. If you use up your move actions, then you can't move at all. Honestly, not calling a 5' step a movement is gonna really raise eyebrows. After all, if all you are allowed is a 5' step, if you use up the step, you've used up all your movement, yes?
No, it specifically references "move actions" which are a specific type of action. I wouldn't worry about it unless they're at the edge of your range, but it's still a way to back off. Oddly enough, it doesn't specify movement-based move actions. If they hadn't taken a move action before 5 ft. stepping, if you made them Stand Still, then they wouldn't be able to draw a weapon (without Quick Draw), or make other move actions. Funny.
As for evasive reflexes, I agree that it would trump this, as it generates additional movement out of thin air that doesn't fall under the normal movement rules. However, the Lock is still pretty effective, because ER still only allows a 5' step, the attacker isn't using the AoO to fight, and they still can't move normally. And, of course, unless they can get out of my range, that 5' step still is going to trigger an AoO, which the second step will be for a double dmg swat.
Sudden Leap does what? It's not in the feat compendium I normally access.
==Aelryinth
Sudden Leap is a swift action maneuver from the ToB, allows you to make a Jump check. By RAW I think it allows double jumps. Turn D&D into Super Smash Bros.!
No, it specifically references "move actions" which are a specific type of action. I wouldn't worry about it unless they're at the edge of your range, but it's still a way to back off. Oddly enough, it doesn't specify movement-based move actions. If they hadn't taken a move action before 5 ft. stepping, if you made them Stand Still, then they wouldn't be able to draw a weapon (without Quick Draw), or make other move actions. Funny.
Sudden Leap is a swift action maneuver from the ToB, allows you to make a Jump check. By RAW I think it allows double jumps. Turn D&D into Super Smash Bros.!
We're reading it different, i"m focusing on "Used up all your movement for the round." You're hanging up on 'move actions', which is pretty restrictive.
==Aelryinth
SLA's qualify Fiends as spellcasters, which means I can disrupt their actions (you notice how they all have huge conc modifiers?) and mage slayer will key off them (basic combat rules in the SRD verify that you treat SLA's just like spellcasting, the only difference is that you can't Counterspell them). Binding sounds like something that should be built into an Augment crystal...but useful. I imagine they get a save against the effect?
===Aelryinth
No, definitively not. Slas are not the same that spellcasting and is not affected by Mage Slayer. I thought the same as you did, but since there was some controversy I went and asked CustServ and they ruled slas were not affected by the feat.
There is no save against Binding, though, which is awesome. There might be a SR check, though, I don't have the MIC at hand to check it.
As about Shadow Step, well, like many of the Shadow Hand maneuvers it is a supernatural ability, so it is useless in an AMF. Shadow Hand is one of the best disciplines, but many effects are supernatural and sometimes that is a problem.
I looked under Tumble to find if Medium Armor reduced speed, not the armor tables. Mithral BP it is.
Technically, I could do a chain shirt, but the net AC would be the same. +1 Armor/-1 Dex going from chain shirt to bp.
===Aelryinth
Doesnt race of stones have a Tumblers BP that you could use that provides +2 to tumble?
According to page 40 of the ToB, maneuvers are extraordinary, not supernatural, unless they specifically say otherwise.
As about Shadow Step, well, like many of the Shadow Hand maneuvers it is a supernatural ability, so it is useless in an AMF. Shadow Hand is one of the best disciplines, but many effects are supernatural and sometimes that is a problem.
Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink are all extraordinary. None of the them specify they are supernatural. There is no maneuver called Shadow Step, so I assume you're talking about those three.
and very nice build
Not certain of what Decisive Strike does.
It does (almost) the same as Overpowering Attack at level 1 for monks, but only with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
We're reading it different, i"m focusing on "Used up all your movement for the round." You're hanging up on 'move actions', which is pretty restrictive.
==Aelryinth
I'm sorry, but the RAW of the feat seems pretty explicit; there are specific consequences to not being able to take any more move actions in a round.
Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink are all extraordinary. None of the them specify they are supernatural. There is no maneuver called Shadow Step, so I assume you're talking about those three.
They do not say that they're supernatural! Good catch. None of them have any prereqs either.
-AS-
On the other hand, I don't think it matters. It's an interesting rules debate, but as long as you are immediately next to your opponent with 10 ft. reach, they can't escape. They move 5ft away, you hit them for their troubles, you move closer and full attack on your turn, no big deal.
I do recommend getting feats that give you a better reach. Take Aberrant Blood and Unusual Reach from Lords of Madness, rather than Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery. Otherwise, some monster or psychic lock artist will put you in the same standstill lock that you are trying to inflict on your enemies, and your anti-magic might not be able to save you.
I'm sorry, but the RAW of the feat seems pretty explicit; there are specific consequences to not being able to take any more move actions in a round.
Regarding the Stands Still Issue :
Actually, the rules don't disallow different types of move actions .. let me quote the SRD once again :
When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Note how
1) the foe's movement must be granting the AoO
2) the foe stops his movement as if he'd run out of move actions (thus preventing him from taking a second move action to continue escaping), but he doesn't actually run out of move actions.
3) While the AoO might interrupt an action that involved movement out of threatened squares - it doesn't prevent the foe from completing other components of their action that don't involve movement. In fact, strictly speaking, a withdraw action cannot be stopped with Standstill even if the foe passes through other threatened squares, since the foe isn't using any move actions to complete it (it's a full round action, not two move actions, so Stand still can't stop it). Although, I'd be tempted to argue this was against RAI.
With Thicket of Blades, the 5' step now provokes an AoO. So 1) is satisfied, and you could use Standstill to try to stop them. However, since taking a 5' step doesn't require a move action, the person cannot actually be halted by Stand Still. He "halts as if he had used all his move actions" but since he wasn't using a move action to take the 5' step this has no effect on that movement.
Moreover, he may take any other type of action that doesn't include movement but which takes no more effort than a move action, since Stand Still doesn't actually affect actions that aren't actual movement. (per 2) )
Usually this isn't a problem, since you can't 5' step and take any other movement in the same round, but it does make the "5' out of your reach and cast a spell" thing viable.
This actually keeps the Stand Still feat in line with it's original purpose and power - to prevent runners from escaping, or closers from charging through your reach.
The "as if" is just illustration, the "immediately halts" is the effect.
-AS-
I can't imagine another way to interpret "immediately halt". Its no big deal either way, but the initial movement triggers stand still, regardless of the action type(the movement itself and not the action trigger it). The type of action is irrelevant, it is movement(from any action type) which triggers stand still. It stops a charge, stops a withdrawal, stops a 5' step, stops any action which moves the character.
The "as if" is just illustration, the "immediately halts" is the effect.
-AS-
I disagree.
The "As If" clause prescribes the manner in which the feat accomplishes halting a character. It's not an example or a mere illustration, it is the mechanism by which the feat works.
The feat has a triggering clause "When a foes movement out of a square you threaten triggers an AoO.." , and a check "Reflex save DC ..." to determine success, and a result of that success "Immediately halt as if all move actions were used that turn".
It doesn't trigger on 5' steps, charges into your threatened area, or any other such thing. Only AoO's on leaving a threatened square.
Thicket of blades *does* make a 5' step provoke, so if a foe 5' steps out of a square you threaten, that satisfies the clause. But there are means to force people to move not on their own action, which provoke normally, even without ToB .. Bull rushing, for example is an action that causes movement that can provoke, even though someone isn't taking a move action on their own turn to move.
Theoretically, Stand Still would trigger on someone being bull-rushed past you. However, Stand Still wouldn't stop them from being bull-rushed because they aren't using any move actions on their turn to move past you. In fact, it's not even their turn. The trigger condition is met, but the effect cannot be applied because the mechanism to apply has no effect on their movement at that time.
The thing is - this feat was written with 2 assumptions : you can't 5' step in the same round as you move, and 5' steps never provoke. If you're 5' stepping, you're not taking a move action that provokes, so no standstill due to the failure of the trigger. If you're moving away and provoking, you can't 5' step after you've been halted, so no escape that way. The "as if " clause was to ensure that people who were halted couldn't just take a 2nd move action to continue their escape.
Along comes Thicket of Blades and makes the impossible, possible - namely that Standstill can trigger due to a 5' step.
But a 5' step is a miscellaneous action - not a move action at all. So "halts as if he's used all his move actions" wouldn't actually prevent him from completing his 5' adjustment, because you can take a 5' step even if you've used all your move actions (as long as none of them were actual movement).
Now, one might argue that the feat actually means "as if he's used all his move actions for movement", but that wouldn't be RAW.
The thing is - this feat was written with 2 assumptions : you can't 5' step in the same round as you move, and 5' steps never provoke. If you're 5' stepping, you're not taking a move action that provokes, so no standstill due to the failure of the trigger. If you're moving away and provoking, you can't 5' step after you've been halted, so no escape that way. The "as if " clause was to ensure that people who were halted couldn't just take a 2nd move action to continue their escape.
Along comes Thicket of Blades and makes the impossible, possible - namely that Standstill can trigger due to a 5' step.
But a 5' step is a miscellaneous action - not a move action at all. So "halts as if he's used all his move actions" wouldn't actually prevent him from completing his 5' adjustment, because you can take a 5' step even if you've used all your move actions (as long as none of them were actual movement).
In the circumstances that matter in this thread, any movement within a threatened area provokes an AoO. So if a person takes a 5' step away, it provokes, stand still is triggered. If the save is failed, the person is immediately halted and cannot use a move action to move(since they already took a 5' step). If a person uses a move action to move, it provokes, again save or not be able to move(no 5' step since a move action was used for movement). The same thing occurs with the withdraw action and charge. Since the movement is built into those actions, there are no move actions or 5' steps that are usable anymore.
Something has to trigger Stand Still, and that is movement, which means that before the feat comes into play the person has decided whether they are 5' stepping, taking a normal move, charging, withdrawing, etc. After the Stand Still works(for arguments sake), they have no options remaining with which to move afterwards.
As I read and reread some of these posts I wonder if the real issue for some is that final sentence. It seems prety clear what the feat does. I just do not see how "as if" trumps "immediately halts". Immediately halts is cut and dry, and the "as if" describes the typical scenario in which a character can be denied movement. Two descriptive words cannot trump every other bit of text in the feat. Nowhere does it actually say anything about how Stand Still interacts with move actions. It simply says you are immediately halted as if you had used up your move actions for the round. Clearly this is descriptive, since before this line, Stand Still references nothing about actions and doesn't actually impact a specific action. You cannot move as if you had already moved all you could that round.
Nice build aelryinth. Surprisingly feat light and super effective.
-AS-
Thx Ander. You're the first one who specifically pointed out one of the things I set out to do with it...make the Core Feat light, and give you options on how to enhance it which no other class could.
Also, it's nice to see people NOT say this is a great dueling build. It's not a dueling build. It's a Lockdown build that happens to be extremely effective against casters, most particularly those annoying Druid posters proclaiming their uberness over Fighters in melee jobs.
========================
eRazor, we're just going to have to disagree. I see plain as day, 'immediately halted', with the example of 'immediately halted' being 'as if he'd used up all his move actions.' Nit picking over 'for movement' not being there is just that - nit picking, although I agree, again, whoever designed the feat probably just lumped 5' steps into a form of restricted move action if you couldn't take a normal move.
But, try to take a 5' step and immediately halted is pretty cut and dry. Trying to worm around the feat in combo with the stance just feels like you're trying to create wiggle room for casters trying to use a basic tactic. Obviously, I don't think so.
Actually, by RAW, a Bullrushed character triggering the AoO could still be immediately halted. 'As if' doesn't give the trigger condition...it says you are immediately halted. The term 'under your own power' for movement isn't in the feat either...it triggers on any movement, and halts it.
heh, by that trigger, I wonder if it could stop an improved Grabber from pulling someone into their square?
Love the English language.
===Aelryinth
That specific example aside : the obvious intention of Standstill is to stop people from getting away if they provoke AoO for that movement. You're right that the intention is pretty clear. I'm mostly just trying to be facile.
Yet Thicket of Blades + Standstill is a particularly problematic combo that illustrates handily one of the problems with the D20 system - creating rules that intentionally make exceptions to prior rules, making some previous rules no longer work the way they were intended, or in a balanced manner.
Given the often all-or-nothing nature of these abilities, or the broken scaling of any contests (Reflex save vs DC 10+damage dealt? Come on.. that's not balanced past level 4.. but then.. what in D20 could we replace that with?), the potential for broken-ness spirals out of control with every new rule-set.
Ahh, but then, where would char-ops be?
C'est la vie
Overwhelming Assault is the F/16 'swap out' option from the pHB2, Carlos, it's not a feat...it's what you get for giving up a feat.
Thx Ander. You're the first one who specifically pointed out one of the things I set out to do with it...make the Core Feat light, and give you options on how to enhance it which no other class could.
Also, it's nice to see people NOT say this is a great dueling build. It's not a dueling build. It's a Lockdown build that happens to be extremely effective against casters, most particularly those annoying Druid posters proclaiming their uberness over Fighters in melee jobs.
========================
eRazor, we're just going to have to disagree. I see plain as day, 'immediately halted', with the example of 'immediately halted' being 'as if he'd used up all his move actions.' Nit picking over 'for movement' not being there is just that - nit picking, although I agree, again, whoever designed the feat probably just lumped 5' steps into a form of restricted move action if you couldn't take a normal move.
But, try to take a 5' step and immediately halted is pretty cut and dry. Trying to worm around the feat in combo with the stance just feels like you're trying to create wiggle room for casters trying to use a basic tactic. Obviously, I don't think so.
Actually, by RAW, a Bullrushed character triggering the AoO could still be immediately halted. 'As if' doesn't give the trigger condition...it says you are immediately halted. The term 'under your own power' for movement isn't in the feat either...it triggers on any movement, and halts it.
heh, by that trigger, I wonder if it could stop an improved Grabber from pulling someone into their square?
Love the English language.
===Aelryinth
Thanks for that, I was totally lost there. Thanks
Here's a build that gets:
Standstill
Thicket of Blades
Double Damage on AoO
Reach Weapon
Combat Reflexes
and
Deft Opportunist
all by level 6 (!!)
Human Monk , Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Standstill, Combat Reflexes
Cleric of Wastri (Weapon Proficiency: Glaive, Weapon Focus: Glaive)
Crusader 1 (Polefighting [treat Glaive as special monk weapon])
Crusader 2
Crusader 3
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1, (Deft Opportunist)
At level 1, you can start holding people down (other than tumblers). At level 2 you can use your glaive with proficiency, by level 3 you have double damage reach attacks, and by level 6 you have the full package.
This obviously is missing several goodies like Improved Initiative and Close Quarters Fighting, but hey, it's level 6. Also note the complete lack of fighter levels.
Another option is Half-Orc worshipping Gruumsh with a Longspear, although you need to push back Combat Reflexes to 6 and lose Deft Opportunist, and also have problems with multiclassing penalties. On the other hand, you can take the Strength domain and use a wand of enlarge.
In the case of Stand Still, Situation Y is "opponent fails Reflex save against the special attack offered by this feat", Situation Z is "opponent runs out of move actions in this round", and Situation X is "opponent immediately". All the ramifications of each situation - including the fact that 5 foot steps, not being a move action, are not factored in - are considered to be transferred.
I like Lockdown a lot.
I want a melee build that can shut up casters.
However, I want that build to be as tight by RAW as is possible and to not rely on the kind of "no chance of retaliation" style tactics that broken casters rely on.
EDIT: eRazor's got me on other move actions, though.
eRazor, we're just going to have to disagree. I see plain as day, 'immediately halted', with the example of 'immediately halted' being 'as if he'd used up all his move actions.'
I completely disagree - the AS IF part is the description of the way the game accomplishes halting someone under the rules. It's not a trigger condition for you using the feat, but it is a condition under which movement is halted.
If it didn't say "as if the opponent had used all their move actions for the round" then there would be nothing to stop your foe from taking a second move action if he had one remaining. After all, "immediately halted" doesn't describe by itself what that means for the foe. What can they do after they've been halted ? If they were in the middle of a move action, can they complete it? The "as if" clause is vital to the description of the feat because it deals with the rules lawyer who says "Ok, so I immediately halt for a whole second, and now I continue my move action ..". It also deals with the question "Ok, so I lost my move action by being halted.. so I'll just take a second move action ... got Combat Reflexes?"
Even though I'm willing to agree that the 5' step would be halted .. (with Thicket) - it isn't because "immediately halted" is some sort of blanket unconditional status applied to you, it's because you can't take two 5' steps in a round AND you have no other movement options through move actions.
That's it. The foe is halted (their movement ends). If they were taking a 5' step when halted, they'd be stuck in place, because
a) even if they had 2 move actions left, they can't use them to move
b) they can't take another 5' step in the same round.
Actually, by RAW, a Bullrushed character triggering the AoO could still be immediately halted. 'As if' doesn't give the trigger condition...it says you are immediately halted. The term 'under your own power' for movement isn't in the feat either...it triggers on any movement, and halts it.
heh, by that trigger, I wonder if it could stop an improved Grabber from pulling someone into their square?
Love the English language.
===Aelryinth
Again, this is merely your interpretation of what's written. It isn't correct.
While the person being pushed is provoking an attack, you can't make them stop because they aren't using their own movement to move. You could certainly stop the rusher, since he is using his own actions to move.
Same with the improved grabbee. The grabbee has already run out of move actions for that turn, and they're being moved anyways. You can't stop them from being moved outside their own turn, because the "as if" clause is already in effect.
Consider an alternative example : Say your foe is on a boat, drifting past you, and their movement provokes an attack of opportunity, do you stop the boat from moving them? Because that's effectively what you're arguing would happen.
What book is pole fighting from?
DR331.
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf page 34.
It's similar to the Ebberron feat Serpent Strike.
Requires Proficiency and Weapon Focus in the Polearm.
The non-Dragon Magazine version:
Human (Improved Initiative or Adaptive Learner)
Monk 1 Standstill, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 1 Weapon Focus: Longspear
Monk 2 Combat Reflexes, Serpent Strike
Fighter 2 Deft Opportunist
Fighter 3
Fighter 4 Mage Slayer, Close Quarters Fighting
Crusader 1
Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades)
This build waits until level 8 to get Thicket of Blades, but it is more able to take Mage Slayer. Still, you are doing double damage at range at level 3, where the straight fighter has to wait until level 16.
If you are interested in more ways to abuse Standstill at low levels, see http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=844217
I have been reading alot about gestalt builds lately and I thought that the lock build would be alot of fun for one side of the build. If I ever play a gestalt build maybe I will take this build along with some levels of war hulk. On a seperate question do decisive strike the monk ability that grants double damage to a single attack in addition to all AoO stack with the fighter ability overpowering attack? I.e. do you decide to make one single attack as a full round action and stack both double damage modifiers or would you need two full actions and then do two single attacks at double damage each to take advantage of both monk and fighter ability. The first seems to advantageous and the second is worthless. I am guessing that I am reading the rules too loosely if I even see the possbility of the first option being valid.
They wouldn't stack. The Fighter effect is a full-round action, the monk ability replaces a full attack. You couldn't stack them.
===========================
Heh, seeing the monk get such a powerful option at that low a level really puts waiting til F/16 to get that ability in perspective. Tell me, why is an ability available at level 1 monkdom have to wait until Fighter/16 for an actual melee to get as a fighting manuver?
BTW, Standstill requires Combat reflexes first. And isn't a longspear a double reach weapon? I think you'd end up with a 'dead zone' for the 10' threat range.
===Aelryinth
As a theoretical build, this is all very nice, but I would guess most D&D campaigns don't even reach level 10.
Here's a build that gets:
Standstill
Thicket of Blades
Double Damage on AoO
Reach Weapon
Combat Reflexes
and
Deft Opportunist
all by level 6 (!!)
Human Monk , Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Standstill, Combat Reflexes
Cleric of Wastri (Weapon Proficiency: Glaive, Weapon Focus: Glaive)
Crusader 1 (Polefighting [treat Glaive as special monk weapon])
Crusader 2
Crusader 3
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1, (Deft Opportunist)
At level 1, you can start holding people down (other than tumblers). At level 2 you can use your glaive with proficiency, by level 3 you have double damage reach attacks, and by level 6 you have the full package.
This obviously is missing several goodies like Improved Initiative and Close Quarters Fighting, but hey, it's level 6. Also note the complete lack of fighter levels.
Another option is Half-Orc worshipping Gruumsh with a Longspear, although you need to push back Combat Reflexes to 6 and lose Deft Opportunist, and also have problems with multiclassing penalties. On the other hand, you can take the Strength domain and use a wand of enlarge.
Not to discriminate you, but this is one of the things that annoy me about caster builds, especially clerics. They force you to have specific domains to meet their builds, and assume this is a 'win', when obviously every cleric cannot do this. Then they assume they can enter any PrC on top of it, regardless of what god and domains they have, even if there's a flavor conflict.
I'll note this build is going to have big problems with the Mage Slayer chain, loses out on at least 2 BAB, and doesn't have the bonuses to hit of the main build. With decisive strike, it does get to the cream faster, however. It is also not available to all clerics. The Ruby Knight Vindicator is based around service to a goddess of magic and death...NOT a god of war or battle, and I think that's one of the key balance factors in that the domains just won't dovetail so easily.
It's also got a crapload more MAD, since Wis is now required to some extent, if you want to exploit cleric spells, and Cha for turning attempts.
But, as you say, it does get them faster.
==Aelryinth
BTW, Standstill requires Combat reflexes first. And isn't a longspear a double reach weapon? I think you'd end up with a 'dead zone' for the 10' threat range.
===Aelryinth
According to the Expanded Psionics Guide, page 51, Standstill does not require Combat Reflexes. It only requires Strength 14.
You are correct that Longspear does not reach in close range, but monks have the unique ability to threaten via unarmed strikes with their hands full (PhB pg. 41), so that's not a problem either.
As for the cleric issue, the text for the alternate RKV specifically mentions "you could easily adapt it to crusaders devoted to any other deity", and then it mentions Hextor, who's clearly a war god. Yes, you do have to worship Wastri, but we are talking about optimized builds here.
As for the MAD and Mage Slayer issue, it's kind of a moot point. You get all these new abilities, but you don't have to use them. Ruby Knight Vindicator would be a fantastic class even if it didn't get cleric casting.
Also, I think you put a little too much focus on the to-hit bonus. It does play an important role at low levels, but generally after level 6 or so, most characters can hit most monsters on their primary attack. Attack bonuses go up much faster than average monster ACs (there's a thread about that here somewhere). Now, usually players have to still worry about hitting because they use two weapons, or they want to hit on their iterative attacks, or they want to power attack, but in the case of these characters, every time they attack it will be with their full attack bonus.
No lvl 6 uuber pwnage for u :D
aelryinth, I hate to break it to you, but you provide the flavor; not the classes (except in extreme cases such as paladin that code of conduct you into a cliche). The other day I RPed my gish (dragonborn fire elf) as a devoute "vassal of bahamut". Is that a PrC? Yes. Did I have levels of it? No. I brought the flavor; the classes provided the mechanics.
A nice sentiment for an optimizer, who ignore flavor as a matter of course. You can have CG paladins, Neutral monks, and LE bards if you want to ignore flavor, too, and have everyone take Nymph's Kiss.
Original point stands, esp concerning the domains. A proper cleric build should be there independent of domains. If you want to PrC, then it should adhere to the flavor of the PrC like the cleric should adhere to the flavor of his domains. Having specific kinds of patrons IS a balancing factor, and having to belong to specific organizations is, as well.
And if you are going to post, please contribute, don't just criticize. It makes you look like a troll.
==Aelryinth
According to the Expanded Psionics Guide, page 51, Standstill does not require Combat Reflexes. It only requires Strength 14.
You are correct that Longspear does not reach in close range, but monks have the unique ability to threaten via unarmed strikes with their hands full (PhB pg. 41), so that's not a problem either.
As for the cleric issue, the text for the alternate RKV specifically mentions "you could easily adapt it to crusaders devoted to any other deity", and then it mentions Hextor, who's clearly a war god. Yes, you do have to worship Wastri, but we are talking about optimized builds here.
As for the MAD and Mage Slayer issue, it's kind of a moot point. You get all these new abilities, but you don't have to use them. Ruby Knight Vindicator would be a fantastic class even if it didn't get cleric casting.
Also, I think you put a little too much focus on the to-hit bonus. It does play an important role at low levels, but generally after level 6 or so, most characters can hit most monsters on their primary attack. Attack bonuses go up much faster than average monster ACs (there's a thread about that here somewhere). Now, usually players have to still worry about hitting because they use two weapons, or they want to hit on their iterative attacks, or they want to power attack, but in the case of these characters, every time they attack it will be with their full attack bonus.
Str 13, actually. Hmm, and I just read it the day before that post. What was I remembering? Ah well. You are correct, in any event. I'd like to see your starting stats if you are going to build this (and btw, I'm not a big believer in the Flaw system, as I feel is true with most DM's.)
-8 to your cleric caster level (-12 if you get the Pierce Magical Concealment) means that you effectively might as well not be a cleric at all. Perhaps a feat heavy/no caster paladin, if you are going to ignore the RKV's patron?
I maximize BAB because the character might have to hit in an AM field, and most monsters' AC stays right where it is when an AMF is up...but bonuses like magic and enhancement and stuff go away. Being able to lockdown an AC 35 monster inside an AMF is really important to the premise of the build. It's the main reason he has a Devoted Spirit weapon...the extra +2 TH. Also, most trip, grapple and similar checks are BAB + Str, so giving up BAB hurts a lot of options...so that if you wanted to add a Trip build to the format, you're already starting at a penalty at a tactic that becomes harder to pull off at later levels.
So, yeah, I do tend to emphasize full BAB a lot. Partial BAB is for Gishes and Goshes.
===Aelryinth
A nice sentiment for an optimizer, who ignore flavor as a matter of course. You can have CG paladins, Neutral monks, and LE bards if you want to ignore flavor, too, and have everyone take Nymph's Kiss.
Original point stands, esp concerning the domains. A proper cleric build should be there independent of domains. If you want to PrC, then it should adhere to the flavor of the PrC like the cleric should adhere to the flavor of his domains. Having specific kinds of patrons IS a balancing factor, and having to belong to specific organizations is, as well.
And if you are going to post, please contribute, don't just criticize. It makes you look like a troll.
==Aelryinth
I disagree with just about everything here. His post was very much in the spirit of the way things are done on the CO boards. He does not come across as a troll in any way to detached readers.
Archer has been one of the consistently most helpful, accurate, and polite members of the CO boards, and his post above was no exception.
I disagree with just about everything here. His post was very much in the spirit of the way things are done on the CO boards. He does not come across as a troll in any way to detached readers.
Archer has been one of the consistently most helpful, accurate, and polite members of the CO boards, and his post above was no exception.
Thanks for the goodwill DrObviousSo. Glad someone notices my contributions to the community. BTW, I do see you help too quite consistantly. D&D is a role playing game; you play a role and the classes are there to provide the mechanics. My battle cry when I pounced went "May the claws of Bahamut rend you" which fit nicely with the greater mighty whalloped double hammer.
Defensive Sweep
Stand Still
Defensive Sweep
Overpowering Assault
Thank you
Stand Still = Expanded Psionics Handbook
Overpowering Assault = PHB 2
Note that overpowering assault isn't a feat, but an alternate class feature for fighters, IIRC.
Whoops, that's correct. I was thinking Overwhelming Assault.
oooo, those mages and divine casters are in soo much trouble.
====Aelryinth
Not to discriminate you, but this is one of the things that annoy me about caster builds, especially clerics. They force you to have specific domains to meet their builds, and assume this is a 'win', when obviously every cleric cannot do this. Then they assume they can enter any PrC on top of it, regardless of what god and domains they have, even if there's a flavor conflict.
Err... this exact same argument can be applied to fighters:
'Not to discriminate you, but this is one of the things that annoy me about melee builds, especially fighters. They force you to have specific feats to meet their builds, and assume this is a 'win', when obviously every fighter cannot do this.'
Pot and kettle there.
Any reason to not throw in some Karmic Strike? I forget where it is and the reqs, but for -4AC it gives you an AoO whenever anyone hits you.
Karmic Strike doesn't stack with Robilar's...they are both triggered by an attack, just at different moments. Robilar's is strictly superior because you don't have to get hit to get the AoO...Karmic Strike you actually have to take dmg. KS also has more pre-req's, but you can get it earlier.
===Aelryinth
Err... this exact same argument can be applied to fighters:
'Not to discriminate you, but this is one of the things that annoy me about melee builds, especially fighters. They force you to have specific feats to meet their builds, and assume this is a 'win', when obviously every fighter cannot do this.'
Pot and kettle there.
Er, no, Sorry. A Fighter is built to a purpose from a specific pool of feats that any fighter can draw from as part of his generic choices. Clerics attempting to make a melee build don't have that luxury, and shamelessly all use the same domains...which is like saying every spec Archer Fighter build is penalized for the fact they aren't melee toons, whereas every cleric build is uber because they take these two domains and can be great at melee and still be awesome at everything else. It's just that they can ONLY take those domains, and have to be this alignment and worship this god when they do that, or the combo just doesn't work.
A cleric's domains are as much roleplaying choices as anything, and somehow trying to justify all these different domains and alignments a cleric has to take to make a build work is nowhere near as simple as a fighter selecting feats as part of his class choices. A fighter isn't bound by race, alignment, or deity on any of these choices, a cleric most definitely is. Yet all that is hand waved aside for the proclamation of cleric ooberage and ownage.
Eh.
===Aelryinth
Er, no, Sorry. A Fighter is built to a purpose from a specific pool of feats that any fighter can draw from as part of his generic choices. Clerics attempting to make a melee build don't have that luxury, and shamelessly all use the same domains...which is like saying every spec Archer Fighter build is penalized for the fact they aren't melee toons, whereas every cleric build is uber because they take these two domains and can be great at melee and still be awesome at everything else. It's just that they can ONLY take those domains, and have to be this alignment and worship this god when they do that, or the combo just doesn't work.
A cleric's domains are as much roleplaying choices as anything, and somehow trying to justify all these different domains and alignments a cleric has to take to make a build work is nowhere near as simple as a fighter selecting feats as part of his class choices. A fighter isn't bound by race, alignment, or deity on any of these choices, a cleric most definitely is. Yet all that is hand waved aside for the proclamation of cleric ooberage and ownage.
Eh.
===Aelryinth
Um, exactly which domains are you talking about? I know of no domains that are required to make a melee cleric. Some domains are better then others, but so are some feats. I do see some domains recommended more otfen then others, but they arent really requied. Not any more then say Combat Reflexes, or Shock trooper. You could make a perfectly fine melee cleric with any 2 domains you want.
The only cleric builds I've seen that have weird domain requirements are ones that want to get DMM:persist at lvl 1 or 3. But thats not required to make a melee cleric.
As for the Ruby Knight Vindicator example earlier (Requiring you to worship Wee-Jas, goddess of Death and Magic), almost any melee Cleric can say that they follow the principles of Death and Magic. They use Clerical magic to enhance their ability to dish out death (and killing things is a way of advancing the cause of death), so no RP problem.
Er, no, Sorry. A Fighter is built to a purpose from a specific pool of feats that any fighter can draw from as part of his generic choices. Clerics attempting to make a melee build don't have that luxury, and shamelessly all use the same domains...which is like saying every spec Archer Fighter build is penalized for the fact they aren't melee toons, whereas every cleric build is uber because they take these two domains and can be great at melee and still be awesome at everything else. It's just that they can ONLY take those domains, and have to be this alignment and worship this god when they do that, or the combo just doesn't work.
*sighs* You completely missed the point. The choice of domains is directly comparable to a fighter's choice of feats. Some builds favor some choices over others. Melee clerics tend to like the war domain just like melee based fighters tend to like power attack.
You're trying to draw a false comparison, or not understanding what the actual comparison is.
That you say a cleric must worship a god shows that you don't have a full understanding of clerics, who can worship an cause or other source of divine power as specifically noted in the PHB, both as rules and as fluff, multiple times.
A cleric's domains are as much roleplaying choices as anything, and somehow trying to justify all these different domains and alignments a cleric has to take to make a build work is nowhere near as simple as a fighter selecting feats as part of his class choices. A fighter isn't bound by race, alignment, or deity on any of these choices, a cleric most definitely is. Yet all that is hand waved aside for the proclamation of cleric ooberage and ownage.
Eh.
===Aelryinth
A cleric isn't bound by race or deity. And in only 4 cases (Law, Chaos and Good and evil domains) that I know of by alignment. I would suggest you read over the cleric class before tossing out blatantly wrong statements about them.
A cleric dedicated to the cause of war is not limited by deity, race or alignment, nor in choosing his domains short of the 4 alignment based ones.
So yeah statistically a Cleric can rock out, but it should not be overlooked the inherent opportunity cost they must pay in limiting their characters options by tying their power to another being or cause. While these are the optimization boards alignment by design rules as written and rules as intended is not just fluff to be overlooked.
For instance if I do not use say the Fighter's Power Attack feat in a given encounter I will not suffer any long term consequences for doing so. Whereas if I slaughter an innocent intentionally or inadvertently as a Paladin I will suffer many long term consequences. This is an extreme example admittedly, but it does illustrate my point well. Fighter feats are not the equal of divine powers for many good reasons. Simply put the stakes are much higher on divine power thusly you get two domains as a Cleric and a lot more feats as a Fighter.
So while your domain choices have a profound impact on the flavor of your character much as does your selection of feats. The domains also carry a great deal more responsibility and cost for they in turn provide you a lot more power and are a lot more rare as well.
Once again this is the optimization board, but to ignore the importance of faith as a source of power and inversely a source of responsibility is to ignore the rules as intended and as written. Thusly while a Cleric can do it better in certain situations with certain motivations, a Fighter can always just do it.
I think the OP is trying to point out the value in that no Fighters abilities are tied to faith, deity or alignment. While Clerics can be very good at combat they none the less pay the very real price of their domain choices in their role play options.
Role playing is never a balancing factor. You can't rely on something with no official consequences to be carried over into games. Clerics in my games rarely offer those outside their faiths access to more than low levels spells. That doesn't mean that my ideals of cleric behavior are coherent with your ideals of cleric behavior, or even the standard.
What's to prevent a cultural ethos from limiting a fighter? Because it's not specifically mentioned?
So yeah statistically a Cleric can rock out, but it should not be overlooked the inherent opportunity cost they must pay in limiting their characters options by tying their power to another being or cause. While these are the optimization boards alignment by design rules as written and rules as intended is not just fluff to be overlooked.
I don't see any domains as being required to make the cleric good at being melee. In example when we refer to melee cleric builds we're usually focusing on general spells that all clerics get. (Divine Favor and Divine Power primarily)
For instance if I do not use say the Fighter's Power Attack feat in a given encounter I will not suffer any long term consequences for doing so. Whereas if I slaughter an innocent intentionally or inadvertently as a Paladin I will suffer many long term consequences. This is an extreme example admittedly, but it does illustrate my point well. Fighter feats are not the equal of divine powers for many good reasons. Simply put the stakes are much higher on divine power thusly you get two domains as a Cleric and a lot more feats as a Fighter.
Your example is flawed. You're comparing not using something and the slaughter of innocents which are in no way related. A fighter slaughtering innocents could/would have much the same long term consequences as most other classes from a role playing perspective.
A correct comparison would have been a fighter not using power attack to a cleric not using domain spells or abilities, for which there is no consequence.
So while your domain choices have a profound impact on the flavor of your character much as does your selection of feats. The domains also carry a great deal more responsibility and cost for they in turn provide you a lot more power and are a lot more rare as well.
Assumed. You can't point to anything that's going to happen officially to the cleric, you can just make reference to "bad things" that are not consistent from game to game, and thus we can't discuss in any rational way. This is why the CO boards tend to not make a big deal over flavor or personal tastes. There is no adjucating for them.
Once again this is the optimization board, but to ignore the importance of faith as a source of power and inversely a source of responsibility is to ignore the rules as intended and as written. Thusly while a Cleric can do it better in certain situations with certain motivations, a Fighter can always just do it.
Again, please point out a consistent set of rules for cleric behavior that is used by everyone (or even 2 clerics worshiping the same thing in different ways). Then using those rules point out why any of the clerics in question are "ignoring the importance of faith."
At that point in time I'll give you about 10 faiths that they are not ignoring the importance of. In example of melee combat: concepts of war, death, battle, slaughter, good/evil philosophical differences (which is it's own can of worms), and the core gods of Heironeos, Hextor, Kord and St. Cuthbert.
As you can see, that covers most of the domains in the PHB from a number of different perspectives that a melee cleric might follow. But again, you can't argue that a cleric is violating his faith when you don't have any rules regarding his faith, not do you know what his views of faiths are.
One possibility would be to get a few levels of Dwarven Defender. Especially if you are constantly knocking down your opponents or waiting for them to charge you.
A great build that looks good so far.
One possibility would be to get a few levels of Dwarven Defender. Especially if you are constantly knocking down your opponents or waiting for them to charge you.
I wanted to stay away from classes that require a specific race. I'll note that even without Defensive Stance, the Dwarven Defender is a supremely usable PrC, with Uncanny Dodge, an AC bonus, d12 HD, better DR then a barbarian, and good Fort+Will.
====Aelryinth
This is an erroneous assumption. A Cleric cannot just willy nilly pick the domains he wants...he has to pick a god with them, and in doing so an alignment restriction. And based on those gods, his race might also get restricted, since the only gods who have the combos he wants might only be racial deities.
Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells
A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
A cleric DOES NOT have to worship a god. This is going to end up being a running theme.
And yet in doing so, they must still abide by restrictiions on alignment, domains, and who and what they serve...which you are again completely ignoring. And all those effects are also in the PHB, as rules and fluff, multiple times.
Please point out any restrictions based on ideals other than alignment. While I in principle agree with you (domains should fit the ideal in concept) there's nothing to support this within the rules, and what fits an ideal is highly subjective and unable to be effectively argued.
I suggest you go and try to find a LG god of death and destruction. No? Then you might finally realize that selecting domains is far deeper a choice then picking a feat. Specific Domains (like Elf) are typically only granted by elven racial deities who won't take worshippers of other races. Saying every human born can take racial domains of other deities is building quite a straw man. Likewise, deities who have command of certain domains aren't going to accept Clerics of the opposing alignments, and likely not even Neutrals...which further restricts builds.
Clerics don't have to worship gods. Say it with me now, clerics do not have to worship gods.
While death might be somewhat problematic, a Lawful Good Cleric of St. Cuthbert does get the destruction domain already. I could almost see an argument for the death domain based on allowing an evil entity to make penitence for it's deeds in life though good works in undeath (following the retribution line of thought), but creating undead is always considered an evil act within the basic D&D framework.
Again though, your opinion on how fluff should work isn't the law for how it has to work for everyone else. You don't like someone taking the elf domain fine, don't like it. But you can't come in here and complain about them not running their game right, which is exactly what you're doing.
So, please review the cleric class yourself, and stop making up facetious arguments. I didn't make the thread for the purpose of butting heads on the inherent restrictions on clerics selecting domains.
Perhaps if you understood the actual requirements and logistics of selecting domains, which clearly are not showing a good grasp of, we wouldn't have to. Again, ideals are more open to domain selection than gods, clerics don't have to worship gods, and there are no restrictions on domain selection for ideals short of alignment. While you might like to claim that your opinion on domain selection counts for something, it doesn't.
He most certainly can be, if there is no God of War in his campaign who will grant him spells.
Clerics don't have to worship gods. Am I going to have to repeat this every time?
And likely he won't be able to turn around and grab, oh, Healing, at the same time. Not all campaigns allow clerics of philosophy, and these are Role Playing restrictions.
We're not discussing individual campaigns, nor your opinion of how the game should be run. We're discussing if clerics can worship ideals (they can) and if they can then select domains with only alignment restrictions based on those ideals (they can).
I would also point out that healing could be an excellent choice for a cleric who worships the ideals of war. Perhaps part of his ideal is as the front line combat medic (which in itself can fit from a huge number of view points on the ideal of war), which is a perfectly valid view point and allowed with in the rules. The fact that the rules already covers such a large number of view points on what domains are allowed is pretty good.
Your opinion is not RAW and is not everyone's opinion.
As for Role playing restrictions not providing balance, that's only an argument within very tight parameters. The feats and classes and even magic within the Book of Exalted Deeds and Vile Darkness are generally considered overpowered and broken until you consider the implications of having to be truly darkest Evil or almost unplayable Good. The role playing limitations, if ignored, basically mean the material itself should be struck, because without them, they are indeed not balanced.
Most of the material in the BoED and BoVD is not considered particularly offensive here. Additionally it's not a role playing restriction that most of it is based on for power limitations, but specifically spelled out restrictions and alignment requirements. While there could be some argument for the ambiguity of alignment coming into play, that's anther discussion entirely.
It's not really a matter of argument within very tight parameters, it's that there are never role playing parameters defined. That's part of the whole point, individual games have leeway in how they play and the fluff works. The problem comes, such as in this discussion, when someone starts claiming that their opinion of fluff is the RAW, much as you are doing with what domains a cleric should be allowed.
So Role Playing can be a factor of tremendous importance. If you remove a Paladin's alignment restrictions, code of conduct, and give all the class abilities to any alignment without requiring adherence to that alignment, the Paladin becomes a much stronger and more flexible class.
That's changing the rules which is a different discussion entirely. The problem is that you're the one who wants to change the rules in this discussion, namely that clerics have to worship gods, and the types of restrictions on domain selection.
Not all campaigns allow clerics of philosophy
Not all campaigns allow the Standstill feat either, doen't mean we don't use it in CO work.
Previn, you're also ignoring the other side of the argument, which is assuming that all clerics don't have to worship gods, and can take any domain they like.
In the majority of campaigns, this is simply not true.
Could you point out anything thst even remotely backs up that statement besides numbers pulled from your backside? I happen to know you can't, and the ego it takes to make that statement shows your inability to argue this rationally.
As snizor so eloquently pointed out, we do not have any reason to assume it's not allowed since it's in the rules.
We're saying it's possible, in the rules, and there's no reason to assume that it can't be done.
You are saying that people don't play that way, and then making the idiotic statement that you know how the majority of games are played. And then using those preposterous, pure opinion positions as factual arguments.
Obviously you're not going to listen to well reasoned and supported arguments that are based on the rules as long as they interfere with your own opinion on how the game should be run.
So, unless your DM ALLOWS you to build a cleric who can eschew worshipping any God and lets you pick two Domains willy-nilly out of the air, your argument doesn't hold any water.
Unless your DM DOESN'T FOLLOW THE RULES IN THE PHB you can build a cleric who can eschew worshipping any God and lets you pick two Domains.
So, unless your DM ALLOWS you to pick standstill you can't have it. In the majority of campaigns, this is simply not true.
Also, Belt of battle gives +2 bonus for initiative. I'll put that in there as an option, too.
===Aelryinth
It would be fantastic if you guys could take your cleric arguments elsewhere and quit ruining a good thread about a great character build. /scold
My apologies.
(BTW: I agree with you on the great build aspect of this thread)
+5 adamantine shadow striking spiked chain(+7 weapon = 98,00 for enhancements alone. +3000 for material)
- Not counting in having it hardened (which I would point out is also useless against other adamantine weapons)
+5 Mithral BP (+5 Dex allowed). Of whatever. (25000 + base cost for only +5, +5000 for material)
+5 Inherent bonus to Dex, Con, Str. Yes, you do have to be good at your job. (137,500 per +5 so 412,500 (Manual of whatever x3))
Likewise, +6 boosters to those stats are core at level 20. (108,000 (Belt of Giant Strength +6, Amulet of Health +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6))
+5 resistance (Cloak of Resistance +5 = 25,000)
+5 Nat Armor (Amulet of Natural Armor +5 = 50,000)
+5 deflection (Ring of Protection +5 for 50,000)
Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. Combining items is fine. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free, and the base costs of the weapon and armor.
Total money spent thus far:
820,850
Continuing with those items that are important to your tactics and strategies:
A +10 Tumble Mod item (10,000)
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Belt of Battle (12,000)
Adding Boots of Teleportation effect to your footgear gives you supreme mobility. (+73,500 to the cost of the boots)
Anti-Magic Torc (25,000)
Total money spent thus far:
984,550 gp
Adding in the last items (but not backup weapons or the unneeded shield):
A ring of blinking (27,000)
A ring of invisibility (20,000)
Locking Gauntlets of War (4,000)
Total money spent thus far:
1,035,550
You also have 11 slots for items and more than 12 items that you need to have on and functioning.
Can you cut the items back to match the PC wealth by level and also limit them to the number of available body slots?
In that sense, in practical terms, one cannot assume that any particular combination of abilities and items will be allowed for any particular build proposed here on the boards.
They can even have the same kind of campaign-specific "flavor" justification. In one world, Monks might not exist, or Warlocks, just as Clerics might not be able to combine certain domains.
But with so many different campaigns out there, we can't rely on such practical considerations when talking about builds or relative class power here.
Which is exactly why RAW is referred to so often. It's the only common thread to every campaign. The only common basis for comparison.
Anti-Magic Torc (25,000)
By the way, how is this item activated? If it's a continuous effect it wouldn't even work, giving that the Antimagic Field created by the item would in fact disable said item. If it just "casts" the spell on you or something that would work fine though.
By the way, how is this item activated? If it's a continuous effect it wouldn't even work, giving that the Antimagic Field created by the item would in fact disable said item. If it just "casts" the spell on you or something that would work fine though.
Once-per-day activation. Last 110 minutes IIRC. So the build would probably want 2 or 3 Antimagic Torcs just in case.
Once-per-day activation. Last 110 minutes IIRC. So the build would probably want 2 or 3 Antimagic Torcs just in case.
On the same note his boots, belt of battle and mindblank item are also limited uses per day.
The Anti-Magic Torc can be found in the Faerun Underdark book, pg. 73.
Once-per-day activation. Last 110 minutes IIRC. So the build would probably want 2 or 3 Antimagic Torcs just in case.
Well that could all be rolled into one item, but that makes sense.
Edit* I don't have any Faerun books, so I thought the item was custom.
On the same note his boots, belt of battle and mindblank item are also limited uses per day.
The Anti-Magic Torc can be found in the Faerun Underdark book, pg. 73.
Agreed! Although it would be much better if the mind blank item was continuous effect, instead of limited use. 1/day would mean it could be dispelled, and we don't want it dispelled...
As for the Belt and the Boots, they are lower level items that help 'go nova' and actually won't be pulled out for most encounters...he doesn't really need them. The best use of them is simply to get to the proper opening position with an extra move action, and then initiate the Lock. The boots protect him against a Charge attack, and give 10 rds of optional haste/day...which hopefully won't be needed if there's a spellcaster along buffing the party. It's another 'fallback' resource that can be managed from round to round.
If he's fighting so many spellcasters/day that he needs more then one use of the Torc, his buds aren't doing the job. The AM Torc is there as a last resort to shut down a really dangerous spellcaster when he doesn't have any other help or options available. With mage slayer and PMP, just being in range of a mage is going to shut them down in all normal circumstances.
Putting up the AM is DANGEROUS in any situation dealing with 'natural' melee bruiser monsters, because you lose your combat buffs and that precious 20' of reach, while the monsters lose nothing. Turning it on is because of tactical neccessity. Ideally, he should really never have to.
===Aelryinth
The easiest way to do it is to drop one feat and pick up Ancestral relic or Ancestral weapon. As a feat, the gold cost of the weapon wouldn't count against your per level cash. And it goes all the way up to 350k! So, you could do it and make up losing, oh, Greater Weapon Spec with the Gauntlets of War (and basically leave the build alone). I'm really not going to go into the cheese of making an Ancestral Relic intelligent Item with its own actions to help you out.
Making the weapon an ancestral relic doesn't alleviate the cost of the weapon at all. The money spent/sacrificed to make the weapon the equivalent of a 'standard' magic one must still be spent/sacrificed, and is directly equivalent cost-wise. You don't get money for free with it.
As for the last two rings, they are meant to be put on and off as needed, not worn all the time. More like special use items. You could stack the Prot on one of them, I guess...likely the Blink.
You've still got slot issues (2 gloves, 2 belts, 3 necks) assuming you only wear 2 of the rings at a time, and the +10 tumble item isn't slotless. Stacking the +5 protection increases it's cost by 1.5, which only further increases the budget disparity.
the big chunk of it seems to be the Manuals. Downgrading or leaving one off would solve any cash problems whatsoever.
If we drop the last set of 3 items entirely, drop a manual entirely, and down grade the other pair manuals to +4 it will save 192,500, which still puts the total at 792,050. Still 32,050 over 20th level wealth (more if we combine 2 of the rings).
We've now cut out all backup weapons, the shield, 2 rings, the gauntlets, a manual and dropped the other 2 manuals down, and are still over budget.
The Harden effect is so the weapon can't be sundered easily. You can't sunder with a spiked chain...it only does piercing damage. It's a 6th level spell, +1 Hardness/2 levels of caster, so I assume an associated mage cast it on an off day for you.
==Aelryinth
Forgive me if I was unclear, I was referring to others sundering your weapon. I don't think hardening is worth while since those seeking to sunder would themselves be using adamantine weapons which ignore hardness.
Agreed! Although it would be much better if the mind blank item was continuous effect, instead of limited use. 1/day would mean it could be dispelled, and we don't want it dispelled...
A continuos effect mind black item would be both absurdly expensive (240,000), and slotted. Both of which were problems already, so I tried to make an item that helped with those problems.
In general as a 24 hour spell it's going to do it's job before the fight, and be of less use during the fight. If you truly wanted multiple uses of it, you could purchase many of the 1 a day items more cheaply than a single continuos use version (assuming all other costs are brought into line).
As for the Belt and the Boots, they are lower level items that help 'go nova' and actually won't be pulled out for most encounters...he doesn't really need them. The best use of them is simply to get to the proper opening position with an extra move action, and then initiate the Lock. The boots protect him against a Charge attack, and give 10 rds of optional haste/day...which hopefully won't be needed if there's a spellcaster along buffing the party. It's another 'fallback' resource that can be managed from round to round.
If he's fighting so many spellcasters/day that he needs more then one use of the Torc, his buds aren't doing the job. The AM Torc is there as a last resort to shut down a really dangerous spellcaster when he doesn't have any other help or options available. With mage slayer and PMP, just being in range of a mage is going to shut them down in all normal circumstances.
I have no problem with limited use items, especially inexpensive ones, but I do think it is rather disingenuous to not note that they have limited uses when they are promoted as filling in weakness (teleporting, flying and haste in particular).
Putting up the AM is DANGEROUS in any situation dealing with 'natural' melee bruiser monsters, because you lose your combat buffs and that precious 20' of reach, while the monsters lose nothing. Turning it on is because of tactical neccessity. Ideally, he should really never have to.
===Aelryinth
There are some other issues with the AMF, but I'd like to settle down items before getting into that.
This doesn't sound right, as it makes the feat strictly inferior to Create Magic arms and armor, where you at least get to offset xp against gold. The Ancestral Weapon feat lets you just pay the xp, so the weapon becomes a class feature, like an Animal Companion or Cohort, and doesn't count against your gold anymore then the gear they have does. but note, I was trying to avoid this issue
I would suggest you read the feat it explicitly states the amounts that must be given up. For a +1 it's 2000 gp. To then make it a +2, you must pay the difference between +1 and +2. This mean that you pay 6000 for the +2 equivalent weapon. Total spent thus far on the ancestral weapon? 8,000 gp. Total for a normal +2 enhancement to a weapon? 8,000. It does not decrease the cost at all. You must sacrifice goods equal to the market cost, as the feat explicitly states.
It DOES NOT allow the sacrifice or payment of xp in anyway the feat never once even mentions xp. It DOES count against your gold. Please read the feat.
What makes it useful is that it is not restricted to casters (it can be taken by anyone), it can be applied to any item, and breaks the wealth caps typically imposed on single items by level (you don't have to find a wizard powerful enough to make a +10 weapon).
As for Ancestral Weapon, there is no such feat in the OA.
I'm assuming multiple use items for stat buffers, which should take care of the gaunts, belt. Not sure on neck slot? Tumble you could stick on boots, which is heading your way for Epic boots of Swiftness...I believe the +5 Prot, like the other standard buffs, has been revised so that it never multiplies when stacking.
Multiple use items increases the cost of said items. You are still over budget, and making them multiple use further increases that problem. Unless you can provide a specific reference about protection stacking, I'm going to disagree since I don't recall anything stating that.
I'd probably change this to Str+3 and keep Dex +5. Just seems a waste since inherent bonuses don't stack.
I would note that that is less than a 1,000 gp difference from what I suggested earlier (a pair of +4 tomes). While a +3 and +5 may be more advantageous for your stat layout, it does not change the budget problems.
It depends on how you interpret Ancestral Relic, or ANcestral Weapon (the other version, from OA, uses XP). As feat and class abilities, they shouldn't count against your class limits anymore then a Kensai's weapon counts against his wealth limits
There is no room for interpretation on Ancestral Relic (it is explecitly stated what you must do and how it works), and Ancestral Weapon is not a feat in OA. Perhaps you are referring to the Samurai class ability Ancestral Daisho which fits your description exactly?
The ancestral relic requires you to sacrifice wealth. It does not give you wealth. It does not give you wealth to sacrifice. It is not a class feature or class ability.
Adamantine ignores hardness up to 20, it doesn't ignore hardness. hardness 40 is for those people pounding out 30+ dmg a shot wanting to take apart my chain.
Ah, you are correct, my mistake.
Also note that if the spellcaster in your party has the creation feats, you can slide around these restrictions fairly quickly, especially if the spells which allow you to share xp costs are allowed in the game.
==Aelryinth
There's a number of problems with this. We don't know what the rest of the party is made up of, or going to be made up of, thus we get into "well so-so could make the item cheaper!" And then we're just stacking items on willy nilly. It also raises the point that if you are sharing xp to help make the items, you shouldn't be 20th level.
If this build is to be compared to others, it's important to have a base line for some things. Primarily among them is wealth (based on PC wealth by level) and XP (to put characters on the same level unless they should choose to spend some in things such as the creation of items).
You are also more over budget than in my last post due to the stacking of items in multiple slots.
BTW, is the gold sacrificed for Ancestral Relic = to that used to make the weapon, or buy the weapon? If it's the latter, it's a completely useless feat.
I did a search on Google, and found this tidbit from the GitP forums. I don't have BoED, so I can't validate it, but I see no reason for this guy to lie:
It's basically a crafting feat specifically for the weapon that ignores most/all? prerequisites and has no xp cost, but costs full market value in materials instead of half, though you are allowed to "spend" magic items, etc. towards this cost at full value rather than selling them to get funds for materials. It also has a level-based cap on the maximum market value of the relic.
i THOUGHT the MiC shifted all the base gear to a 'free stacking' concept, not just the stat buffs. Simply because they were so neccessary.
What you are referring to is adding common effects (MiC, pg. 233). This will cut down on the cost of certain types of things, which does include deflection bonuses. It does not include everything though. (see bottom for revised costs at this point)
Ancestral Daisho is a samurai class ability. There's a feat which allows the same thing,but with any weapon. They put it in so, say, Mantis could get a bow, and Daidoji get a Yari, etc.
There is no such feat in the OA. I say this having just finished going page by page to double check for it and found nothing short of the Samurai's Ancestral Daisho ability (which incidentally is not limited to a daisho set). If you can't provide a book and pg number reference on this, it doesn't exist.
BTW, is the gold sacrificed for Ancestral Relic = to that used to make the weapon, or buy the weapon? If it's the latter, it's a completely useless feat.
Market cost for the weapon. It's not useless for many of the reasons I point out above. It's just different.
BTW, this IS a thread about contributing. You keep questioning me, and I'll turn it around...if the gear is giving you such problems, how would you change it?
===Aelryinth
I am contributing. I already stated up a mind blank item to help with the problems. The way I'd change it is by dropping items and bonuses until it was back at a reasonable level, which is what I'm try to facilitate. As you have a much better grasp of where you want this build to go, and what you want it to do you need to be the one deciding which items are important.
I'm contributing by pointing out the problem, and doing all the leg work and math on this. That being said:
Current Item list by slot (with cost breakdown)
Weapon: +5 adamantine shadow striking spiked chain (+7 weapon = 98,000 for enhancements +3000 for material)
Body: +5 Mithral BP w/ +5 natural armor (75000 for enhancements +5000 for material)
Non Slotted: +3 Inherent bonus to Dex, +5 to Str. (110,000 for +5, 82500 for +3 so 192,500 (Manual of whatever x2))
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Back: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Ring1: Ring of Blinking w/ +5 deflection bonus (77,000)
Ring2: Ring of Invisibility (20,000)
Feet: Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Neck: Anti-Magic Torc w/ +6 con (71,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle w/ +6 str (48,000)
Hands: Locking Gauntlets of War w/ +6 dex (40,000)
Torso: Vest of +10 Tumble (10,000)
Arms: Open
Face: Open
Head: Open
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free.
Total money spent thus far:
752,725 of 760,000
I did a search on Google, and found this tidbit from the GitP forums. I don't have BoED, so I can't validate it, but I see no reason for this guy to lie:
Ah! so it is a 'half-price' feat. Sacrificing is not the same as selling. well enough. Not as good as the 'free' Ancestral weapon, but good enough.
===Aelryinth
Current Item list by slot (with cost breakdown)
Weapon: +5 adamantine shadow striking spiked chain (+7 weapon = 98,000 for enhancements +3000 for material)
Body: +5 Mithral BP w/ +5 natural armor (75000 for enhancements +5000 for material)
Non Slotted: +3 Inherent bonus to Dex, +5 to Str. (110,000 for +5, 82500 for +3 so 192,500 (Manual of whatever x2))
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Back: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Ring1: Ring of Blinking w/ +5 deflection bonus (77,000)
Ring2: Ring of Invisibility (20,000)
Feet: Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Neck: Anti-Magic Torc w/ +6 con (71,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle w/ +6 str (48,000)
Hands: Locking Gauntlets of War w/ +6 dex (40,000)
Torso: Vest of +10 Tumble (10,000)
Arms: Open
Face: Open
Head: Open
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free.
Total money spent thus far:
752,725 of 760,000
retained as a positive contribution.
==Aelryinth
Ah! so it is a 'half-price' feat. Sacrificing is not the same as selling. well enough. Not as good as the 'free' Ancestral weapon, but good enough.
===Aelryinth
No it is not in anyway a 'half-price' feat. Stop trying to use it if you have never even read it.
So with Ancestral weapon replacing, oh, Greater weapon spec, we'll double the value of Gold I get for stuff 'sacrificed' to make the weapon. That means we can make the weapon +10 total, and stick on Wounding or something else.
No you won't. Ancestral Relic is an exact 1 gp to 1 gp conversion of goods/items with final cost being the market value. Please don't try to include or use the feat when you have no idea what it does or how it works, which you obviously don't.
The Ancestral Weapon feat is in OA Way of the Samurai. The Ancestral Daisho is specifically limited to swords, with DM option of it being open to other weapons. Ancestral Weapon got around the 'option' part. As Ancestral Daisho is a class ability and not a feat, I can't access it with a Fighter build, anyways (although its a REALLY good reason to dip OA samurai).
It's also not from a WotC product, thus making it's use very suspect here.
If i have to take Ancestral Relic, more then likely I'd exploit it for the full 350k you can sacrifice to it (yeah, that much!). You'd be foolish not to. Getting +150k of goodies for 'free' (it takes 400k of goodies to 'afford' a +10 sword) is too good not to pass up.
You don't get jack for free with Ancestral Relic. If you would read the feat you would know this. It also only takes 200,000 gp for a +10 equivalent weapon with or without the feat. It's a limit of 360,000 gp. But you would know this if you had read the feat.
So, if I can free up 80K gp, I can stick 150 more GP of effects on a +4 Stone Dragon Shadowstriking Sword of wounding. Mmmm, mmm. Dang, that's enough to pay for my inherent Con and Dex getting back to full +5's, almost.
==Aelryinth
NO YOU CANNOT. Get the book and read the feat. Quit making stuff up for a feat that you haven't read. You are so massively off on the feat that I can't even start to go into it.
Previn, again, please, come down off your high horse.
Shall we get into Market economics of 3e? Lets!
Do you want to BUY a +4 Stone Dragon Shadowstriking weapon? Sure! It'll cost you 98k!
Ok.
Where are you getting 98k gold from?
From selling 196k worth of magical loot, of course, at the standard 50% rate of conversion!
When making a build that starts at 20th level, we have 760,000 gp to spend. We do not have previous items or goods to sell. This is the problem. It's also not a gain if you do have previous goods as I'll show below....
Oh, but with this feat, I don't HAVE to sell ANYTHING! I can SACRIFICE 98k worth of goodies, and get the weapon I want enchanted, which leaves me with an extra 98k of stuff to be sold off for gold at half value...or I can sacrifice THAT money, too, and get it up to almost +10!
You don't have anything starting out besides the 760,000 gp. You don't have an extra 98,000 gp in items to sell or sacrifice. You don't get any extra items unless you specifically buy them first.
Ergo, it's a 'half-price' feat, because I don't have to sell and lose 50% of the value of my loot in doing so. And since not all my loot is going to be in cash and carry, this works out just FINE for the people who have the feat.
It's not a half price feat. This doesn't make you money during a game, it just keeps you from losing it. Your total wealth will not increase from this feat.
In example: the +1 long sword is worth 2,300 (rounding here). As something you have it's value is market price. It counts against your wealth by character level as 2,300 gp worth of 'stuff'. If you were to sell it you would lose money if you couldn't sell it at market price. If you were to sacrifice it to imbue your spiked chain, you simply prevent the loss that you would have incurred from selling it (roughly half). Your total character wealth hasn't changed, it's still 2,300.
The feat does not make you money.
And as I've read multiple times, the word 'sacrifice', not 'sell' IS specifically in there, and it doesn't say you have to sacrifice gold, but items with a market value of xxxx gold....which means, full price!
And as I point out above, the sacrifice of items doesn't increase your wealth, it just prevents a decrease from selling. Ergo, no net gain.
Not having to take a 50% discount on loot sold most definitely creates a lot of money, mmm?
It creates no money. It just prevents the loss of money.
And btw, from reading the feat, the limit is 380,000 gp. Which, incidentally, is the amount you'd have to SELL to make a standard sword +10. But sacrificinig is so much more efficent then going through a middle man, don't you think?
===Aelryinth
No I don't, as aptly demonstrated above.
You could get an Item Familiar. That can save you some money on weapon enhancements and give some bonuses to different skills.
This is an excellent idea. It could be tricky figuring out the xp cost/bonus through to a satisfactory result.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html
Ancestral Relic makes you money ? Perhaps you should open a Potion Store.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html
Heh, I think this meltdown of V's is funnier IMO.
I will start by apologizing first hand for my poor English abilities. I also apologize for the length of my post and realize it will keep many from reading it. I am hoping that Aelrinth at least will read and if he finds any of the situations I mention worth answering that he will do so.
Anyway I want to illustrate that the lock build is more revolutionary in regards to melee combat than it is to melee versus magic user. TO do so imagine the lock build in a battle against three magic users for illustration purposes. No matter how well the build can or can not do against one magic user it can not stand up against three magic users. This is a good thing. Even with antimagic field up there are options for a magic user to do to cause damage to a lock build. With three casters summoning monsters every round I do not think the build would survive. If I am wrong in my analysis of a lock build's survivability against three magic users then simply increase the number of magic users till the lock build is finally out gunned.
Now instead of magic users imagine the lock build is up against short range melee combatants. Lets say a barbarian with a great axe, a monk fighting unarmed, a rogue with a dagger, and a bear warrior. If they all try to get within range of melee to damage the lock build they will be locked down and the fighter will be able to take them out one at a time with superior reach. The only limit on the number of combatants the lock build is able to face is the number of AoO per round.
It is possible that I am misinterpreting the ramifications of the lock build but it seems that the lock build shuts down completely short range melee combatants. In a duel between a bear warrior(a fun build I have played in the past) and a lock build the bear warrior would have a hard time getting in range to do any damage, because the bear can't wield weapons and doesn't get reach. This is not a bad consequence but it does mean that in order to survive melee combatants need to come up with either a way to overcome the reflex save or increase their reach in order to do damage to a lock build.
This means that a lock build will force not only magic users but particularly melee combatants to evolve their tactics in order to remain relevant. That is if the lock build is proven to be a valid build and becomes popular as a fighter choice. To give a historical perspective on the evolution of fighting, I am reminded of the historical forts that the french built along the maginot line that were to prevent Germans from invading France. However, the blitzkrieg the Germans used in World War Two simply went around the defensive forts and the maginot line became worthless. I am worried that close range combatants have become the equivalent of the maginot line strong but useless. They can't prevent the enemy from attacking vulnerable allies in the back i.e. battle control, and they can't do damage to the lock build which is the unit doing the destroying in the backfield.
I have already seen how new inclusions by WOTC ruin earlier builds and watch how people reevaluate their battle options to showcase the evolution of warfare brought on by WOTC periodic new additions. Already the spiked chain is one of the more popular weapons among fighters because it deals damage both to close and to range victims. This is true despite the fact that no army in history ever fought with spiked chains. However, the way WOTC wrote the weapon description it is hard to pass by as a weapon choice. With the addition of the lock build any weapon that is not a range weapon is worthless in my opinion. Either people with take exotic weapon proficiency with the spiked chain or they will take a reach weapon and take the feat short haft that allows their reach weapon to deal damage to close victims.
Because of these evolutions which I see happening to the way battles are fought in D&D I have six situations that might influence the lock build. Now these evolutions are not actually a result of the lock build but are changes due to the introduction of thicket of blades martial stance and the stand still feat. However, the lock build uses these two new inclusions to great effect.
The first situation
How does the lock build deal with long distance damage or area effect damage efficiently? Because the build will not focus on high hit points I am worried that a lock build can be one shot by long distance attacks. I do not have the reference but I remember a person posting a fighter build that used a split force bow to great effect. It was shown to hands down beat mobs such as balors and pit fiends for example by dealing overwhelming damage quickly. However, I remember it did have the vulnerability to dispel magic. Anyway, would a lock build survive one round against such a build if it lost initiative. I am guessing that the archer build would have higher initiative because it would have improved initiative and a higher dexterity score. The lock build is not the only melee build that has vulnerabilites to long distance damage or area effect damage. I was just curious if you had any strategies to cope with it better.
The second situation
How does the lock build deal with creatures that have greater range than the range of the lockdown? For example, imagine a barbarian with a chain weapon that is polymorphed into a titan to increase his size to colossal and with a weapon that increased in size to match the size of the wielder to maximize his reach. If such a barbarian or figher or whatever the build was had the power attack line such as the ubercharger build they could easily one shot the lock build as long as thier reach exceeded the lock down field. The problem is that the lock build is not built to one shot creatures with massive hit points so even if the lock down build can win initiative how does it survive one round against someone capable of oneshoting the lock build with massive damage. Uberchargers have the benefit that they generally have massive hit points. It seems that the power attack creature with range greater can survive the damage the lock build can dish out in the first round and win regardless of whether it lost initiative. The pounce ability of the barbarian which is available as a one level dip in barbarian due to complete champion is such a huge multiplyer of damage done in one round. However, most builds seem vulnerable to being one shot by massive damage so perhaps it is not fair to question the versatility the lock build brings by bringing it up.
Prelude to the third situation. In order to prevent uberchargers from getting in range a lock build would need to be collosal size as well through polymorph any object to prevent problem two from happening. I am unsure what would happen if a lock down field is the same distance as the opposing person's weapon range. I assume the opposing person could still hit you without problem.
The third situation
How does the lock build deal with builds that can do massive damage in one shot who also use your own idea of boots of teleportation to bypass your lock down field? I imagine the evolution of warfare to direct the future of D&D so that every melee combatant decides they need to pick up stand still feat and the thicket of blades stance. Of course fighters are the best situated to do so since they have the most feats, but not every build would necessarily have to be a lock down build. At least dips in fighter of greater levels to get more feats would be more popular. Imagine everyone maxing out their range by everyone getting polymorphed and taking a reach weapon. Effectively these tanks would be impenatrable fortresses that would effectively control any movement within their lock down range. Now the only way to get within range to damage such a person would be boots of teleportation or other magical means. However, magic in this case trumps the lock down effect and allows any one to get within range. This means that everyone will need some means of teleportation, abundant step, dimension door or other magical modes of transportation to survive the resulting chaos. Even without overpowering assault which doubles your damage of all attacks it is likely that the resultant reflex save for an enemy with power attack to be too high for most classes to make.
A corrolary to the third situation seems to be that your antimagic field be on constantly in order to keep out boots of teleportation and other magical effects that would bypass your lock down field. However, this would require significant more use of the use of the antimagic field than is possible with your torque. It also means you are without any buffs and magical bonuses due to equipment. This would mean that the lockdown artist that had increased size due to race, increased stats due to race and perhaps flight as an option due to race would be much more effective than a human lock build.
The fourth situation
How does the lock build deal with classes that have armour classes too high to hit? I built a master of many forms build that also took one level of fist of the forest and two levels of deepwarden that could get its armour class up to the high nineties without needing any buffs. I thought this was close to a record but someone pointed out a thread where the armor classes were in the 200s preepic. The lock down build seems worthless against such a build. In order to lock down another build it must first be able to hit the other combatant in order to deal damage that forces a reflex save. Of course most melee builds even gishes with persistant wraith strike cheese have the same problem with high armor class builds.
The fifth situation
How does the lock build deal with the kensai ability to turn reflex saves into concentration checks? With the huge increases items give to ability checks the high reflex saves become manageable Will this mean that dips into kensai to get the reflex save change will become necessary to deal with the monster that the lock build promises to other melee users? If so I would change the requirement that you have to be lawful in my home campaigns to allow barbarians access to the kensai class since such an ability is needed to survive in the future apocalypse that is presented by the lock build.
The sixth situation
How does the lock build deal with tower shields? Once again I do not have the reference but recently a thread mentioned that an antimagic field is an emanation and as such total cover blocks it. Once again a tower shield gives total cover. I am one who feels that RAI a tower shield has to give a direction that it faces and flanking attacks and back stabs do not get the total cover. However, I do not believe that the tower shield by RAW has to give a facing direction. I also dislike the whole idea that total cover effectively prevents an anti magic field. However my personal dislikes do not come into play, so an answer must be presented to deal with tower shields since the antimagic field is so necessary for the lock build to take out magic users. By RAW I am not sure if magic users can cast spells behind tower shields since they prevent attack actions but I am not sure if a spell is considered an attack action? (Tower shields as written in the player handbook is simply poorly written in my opinion.) However, if tower shields do not prevent spells from being cast than all magic users will spend a feat to gain shield proficiency in the evolving world of D&D in order to survive against the lock build.
That means that magic users once again trump anything a melee combatant can do except for situations where they lose initiative and happen to get one shot. Because of the power of 9th level spells that is highly unlikely.
In conclusion, if you want to ignore any of these questions I won't be offended. However, if you decide any of them have merit mention the answer to the question by the number of the question to make it easier to follow. I love the lock build and it influences the way I make future characters. For example I will never make another bear warrior because it has no reach and is completely vulnerable to a lock down fighter. Of course no character is superior to every challenge to come its way. This is one of the reasons why this build is promising because it has a chance against magic users at high levels which seems to be lacking most melee combatants in D&D until now. So perhaps the fact that it is superior to many melee users but is still vulnerable to a few is not a bad thing. It still provides great battle field control and versatility for a fighter.
PS Previn lately has been doing a good job at cleaning up your build in terms of quantifying which items your build needs and can afford. I do believe he likes the build and is trying to be constructive and make the build better. It does seem that you got carried away with all the great items available that would benefit this build when you first created this thread. Is it possible that you would edit your first post when you come up with an appropriate gold coin amount of items that your build would use at level 20. This would help those who read the first page of this thread for the first time but skip all the future responses to get an appropriate idea of the necessities and strengths of the build. Once again, I apologize for my poor English abilities and the length of my response. I only wrote so much because I truly like the potential of the build and wondered what you would do in response to my six situations.
Ancestral Relic makes you money ? Perhaps you should open a Potion Store.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html
It's like Item Creation...it doubles your effective money for ONE specific weapon of yours. A caster gets his 50% 'gold hop' by turning XP into Gp/Market Value.
All players lose out on the sell 'loot' for 1/2 value default mechanic. Ancestral relic allows you to get around this for one weapon. Pretty nice that way.
===Aelryinth
Generally speaking, however, the guideline for appropriate character wealth per level is not how much you found over the levels, but how much you ought to currently have at that level.
It doesn't matter how you get to 20th level, or whether you've seen a million gp of crappy items flow through your hands over the years - the items you kept (or bought with the proceeds of other item sales) should total the 20th level guideline for wealth per level.
So whether you get to sacrifice X gp for an upgrade worth Xgp or whether you have to sell loot at 50%, or whether you get to craft using XP and Time for half your items value, it doesn't matter. Those things affect the journey to a particular wealth-level - not the destination.
No seriously. Because that would suck...and have the side effect of breaking all your plans.
Current Item list by slot (with cost breakdown)
...
Total money spent thus far:
752,725 of 760,000
I'm sorry if I missed it but is there an item for teleporting in there? I didn't notice any teleportation abilities in that list. No +10 spot item either.
Ok to change the topic from items' cost to a different subject I had some questions that I wanted to post. It seems that this build has been proposed to help a fighter deal with magic users. I want to propose that this build is not necessarily a magic killing class but a melee killing class.
I will start by apologizing first hand for my poor English abilities. I also apologize for the length of my post and realize it will keep many from reading it. I am hoping that Aelrinth at least will read and if he finds any of the situations I mention worth answering that he will do so.
Anyway I want to illustrate that the lock build is more revolutionary in regards to melee combat than it is to melee versus magic user. TO do so imagine the lock build in a battle against three magic users for illustration purposes. No matter how well the build can or can not do against one magic user it can not stand up against three magic users. This is a good thing. Even with antimagic field up there are options for a magic user to do to cause damage to a lock build. With three casters summoning monsters every round I do not think the build would survive. If I am wrong in my analysis of a lock build's survivability against three magic users then simply increase the number of magic users till the lock build is finally out gunned.
The Lock build would simply have to have all three spellcasters in AoO range. If they are widely seperated, of course he dies. But with Mage Slayer, they are never going to be able to get a spell off unless its a quickened spell to get OUT of his threat range...which he can stop with one readied action (and possibly then granting himself a SA via his belt to REady another one).
If you are talking widely seperated casters, of course he's going to get overwhelmed. Who wouldn't? If all the casters are inside his AMF, they are, however, totally hosed.
Now instead of magic users imagine the lock build is up against short range melee combatants. Lets say a barbarian with a great axe, a monk fighting unarmed, a rogue with a dagger, and a bear warrior. If they all try to get within range of melee to damage the lock build they will be locked down and the fighter will be able to take them out one at a time with superior reach. The only limit on the number of combatants the lock build is able to face is the number of AoO per round.
It is possible that I am misinterpreting the ramifications of the lock build but it seems that the lock build shuts down completely short range melee combatants. In a duel between a bear warrior(a fun build I have played in the past) and a lock build the bear warrior would have a hard time getting in range to do any damage, because the bear can't wield weapons and doesn't get reach. This is not a bad consequence but it does mean that in order to survive melee combatants need to come up with either a way to overcome the reflex save or increase their reach in order to do damage to a lock build.
This isn't a quality of the Lock build...it's a quality of just how important Reach is in the melee arena. Another Fighter with Reach can whale on him all day.
This means that a lock build will force not only magic users but particularly melee combatants to evolve their tactics in order to remain relevant. That is if the lock build is proven to be a valid build and becomes popular as a fighter choice. To give a historical perspective on the evolution of fighting, I am reminded of the historical forts that the french built along the maginot line that were to prevent Germans from invading France. However, the blitzkrieg the Germans used in World War Two simply went around the defensive forts and the maginot line became worthless. I am worried that close range combatants have become the equivalent of the maginot line strong but useless. They can't prevent the enemy from attacking vulnerable allies in the back i.e. battle control, and they can't do damage to the lock build which is the unit doing the destroying in the backfield.
The solution to this is things like Anticipate Teleport, or other effects which stop or delay teleporters. Note, any demon or devil can do this already! Giving this motility to PC's is inevitable.
And you are correct. Reach really, really dominates the game as you go up in levels. Especially with a build like this. Combatants who don't have Reach and ranged combat options are just setting themselves up for a fall.
I have already seen how new inclusions by WOTC ruin earlier builds and watch how people reevaluate their battle options to showcase the evolution of warfare brought on by WOTC periodic new additions. Already the spiked chain is one of the more popular weapons among fighters because it deals damage both to close and to range victims. This is true despite the fact that no army in history ever fought with spiked chains. However, the way WOTC wrote the weapon description it is hard to pass by as a weapon choice. With the addition of the lock build any weapon that is not a range weapon is worthless in my opinion. Either people with take exotic weapon proficiency with the spiked chain or they will take a reach weapon and take the feat short haft that allows their reach weapon to deal damage to close victims.
yes, the spiked chain is complete realistic nonsense. More logical is a spear with reach, which is known as the King Of Weapons in the Orient, for just this reason. The staff is another such weapon...a staff fighter can make a mockery of most sword fighters with the combination of reach, close-in, and being a double weapon naturally.
Because of these evolutions which I see happening to the way battles are fought in D&D I have six situations that might influence the lock build. Now these evolutions are not actually a result of the lock build but are changes due to the introduction of thicket of blades martial stance and the stand still feat. However, the lock build uses these two new inclusions to great effect.
Thicket or a variant thereof should have been available to melee a long time ago. Tumble made a mockery of melee fighting skills and ability to perform his role as a blocker.
The first situation
How does the lock build deal with long distance damage or area effect damage efficiently? Because the build will not focus on high hit points I am worried that a lock build can be one shot by long distance attacks. I do not have the reference but I remember a person posting a fighter build that used a split force bow to great effect. It was shown to hands down beat mobs such as balors and pit fiends for example by dealing overwhelming damage quickly. However, I remember it did have the vulnerability to dispel magic. Anyway, would a lock build survive one round against such a build if it lost initiative. I am guessing that the archer build would have higher initiative because it would have improved initiative and a higher dexterity score. The lock build is not the only melee build that has vulnerabilites to long distance damage or area effect damage. I was just curious if you had any strategies to cope with it better.
Split is considered the single most broken archery enhancement in the game.
The build has very respectable hit points...Con is the second highest starting stat. You lose out on hit points if you want an uber weapon, is all. And not getting +5 Inherent to Con is a problem with every other class wanting 3 stats maxed too. Keep in mind I'm playing with Elite Array here, not 32 point buy. You could also be playing a dwarf instead of a human, if Con is that important.
For a ranged build, you have to get close. That's all there is to it. Hence the boots of teleportation, Haste effect, Belt to grant move actions, and high initiative. At high levels, whoever goes first often wins. But keep in mind, that if your enemy doesn't go first and lives in these dueling situations, you are often dead.
Hence, lots of movement ability and high initiative. Once he's in my threat range, he's provoking AoO's right and left, can't move, and I can sunder his quiver to deprive him of arrows, or maybe his bow.
The second situation
How does the lock build deal with creatures that have greater range than the range of the lockdown? For example, imagine a barbarian with a chain weapon that is polymorphed into a titan to increase his size to colossal and with a weapon that increased in size to match the size of the wielder to maximize his reach. If such a barbarian or figher or whatever the build was had the power attack line such as the ubercharger build they could easily one shot the lock build as long as thier reach exceeded the lock down field. The problem is that the lock build is not built to one shot creatures with massive hit points so even if the lock down build can win initiative how does it survive one round against someone capable of oneshoting the lock build with massive damage. Uberchargers have the benefit that they generally have massive hit points. It seems that the power attack creature with range greater can survive the damage the lock build can dish out in the first round and win regardless of whether it lost initiative. The pounce ability of the barbarian which is available as a one level dip in barbarian due to complete champion is such a huge multiplyer of damage done in one round. However, most builds seem vulnerable to being one shot by massive damage so perhaps it is not fair to question the versatility the lock build brings by bringing it up.
This again refers to the importance of reach in the game, and going first.
Uberchargers often rely on magical buffs to do their one shots. Furthermore, they have to reach melee range. They usually have to pounce.
First of all, I hope to win initiative. If I do, I simply move inside his reach. I have Tumble. I can teleport. Once I'm in his reach, he can't charge. Furthermore, I can lock him down. If I do it right, I can enter Overwhelming Assault mode and clock him for at least as much damage as he's doing to me with Robilar's.
If he wins initiative, and he has Reach, there's precious little anyone can do to stop him. Letting any high level melee get a full attack on you on a charge is pretty much instantly donefor. The only way around it is to have concealment effects, like a displacer cloak, going which give you a miss chance and hope of survival.
Because of their reliance on buffage, most uberchargers aren't all that great in standard melee combat. USing PMP to strip off their strongest buffs is an option, so is swallowing them in an AM shell. The best way to stop an Uber charger is port up right next to him and swallow him in an AM shell. He's not optimized to lock someone down in place any more then a normal melee, and we're both on even footing.
If he doesn't have Reach, then he'll never touch me. I have Hold the Line, and get my AoO off before he goes. I also have Sidestep. Steadfast boots also mean that I'm considered automatically set against a charge...I don't even have to ready an action.
In this instance, I would take my take my readied action (from boots?) to take a 5' step forwards. He will trigger a Hold the Line AoO, my readied action attack, AND his destination square is now 5' inside my threat range, so he will trigger a Stand Still at DC 39, and then I'll use Sidestep to get 5' beyond his reach. His charge will lock him just outside both of our reach...except he took two attacks from me already. I will take a 5' step forwards on my turn, do an Overwhelming Assault, and freeze him in place. If he's sizzling with magical buffs, I'll PMP to take them down. From there, we either trade Reach attacks, which I can avoid from him by moving out of his threat range with Sidestep (or even better, Evasive reflexes if it's in the build) and then back in on my turn, and/or I can try to rely on my friends to finish him.
Note that most ubercharger builds rely on shocktrooper/combat brute to lower their AC to nil. IN this instance, if Power Attack were in the build, you declare Power Attack for max BAB, since you can't fail to hit them. At 20th level, this person charging you has likely taken 138 pts of dmg, failed his charge entirely, failed the DC 79 Reflex save and can't move, and I get a full attack action against someone with no AC next turn. At an average of 69 pts of dmg x4, mr. Uber Charger is probably very, very dead.
Prelude to the third situation. In order to prevent uberchargers from getting in range a lock build would need to be collosal size as well through polymorph any object to prevent problem two from happening. I am unsure what would happen if a lock down field is the same distance as the opposing person's weapon range. I assume the opposing person could still hit you without problem.
See above. Hold the Line and Sidestep are wonderful counters in this situation. If he's colossal he's relying on buffs I can strip, using PMP or an AM field.
The third situation
How does the lock build deal with builds that can do massive damage in one shot who also use your own idea of boots of teleportation to bypass your lock down field? I imagine the evolution of warfare to direct the future of D&D so that every melee combatant decides they need to pick up stand still feat and the thicket of blades stance. Of course fighters are the best situated to do so since they have the most feats, but not every build would necessarily have to be a lock down build. At least dips in fighter of greater levels to get more feats would be more popular. Imagine everyone maxing out their range by everyone getting polymorphed and taking a reach weapon. Effectively these tanks would be impenatrable fortresses that would effectively control any movement within their lock down range. Now the only way to get within range to damage such a person would be boots of teleportation or other magical means. However, magic in this case trumps the lock down effect and allows any one to get within range. This means that everyone will need some means of teleportation, abundant step, dimension door or other magical modes of transportation to survive the resulting chaos. Even without overpowering assault which doubles your damage of all attacks it is likely that the resultant reflex save for an enemy with power attack to be too high for most classes to make.
If they can land one blow kills, you better have teleport defenses up.
I'm generally not worried about an opponent getting close to me. I WANT them close, so I can lock them down. I'm the melee...I'm supposed to be the tank. If we're talking polymorph cheese, that runs in both directions...I can get Poly'd into a titan by the caster in the party, too. I made the build not to RELY on such tactics, which many uberchargers do.
This also illustrates another truism of the build...mobility is king. Just listen to all the people pointing out cloudkill+Forcecage. If you can't dim door or teleport at higher levels, you are truly SoL.
A corrolary to the third situation seems to be that your antimagic field be on constantly in order to keep out boots of teleportation and other magical effects that would bypass your lock down field. However, this would require significant more use of the use of the antimagic field than is possible with your torque. It also means you are without any buffs and magical bonuses due to equipment. This would mean that the lockdown artist that had increased size due to race, increased stats due to race and perhaps flight as an option due to race would be much more effective than a human lock build.
Mostly irrelevant. see above about teleports...either I want them close, or nobody does. I want them in my reach, I'm not so concerned about theirs. Furthermore, unless they are pure fighters, they won't have all the feats and flexibilty I do. Sure, Natural Reach is great. but unless they can manage the feats for a Thicket, I'm not worried...I've got Tumble. And as long as they are staying in place, I'm perfectly happy to keep them there. IF they want to beat on me, I've got Overpowering Assault at high levels, and do decent dmg at low levels with my extra feats. With Robilar's, I'll give what I get, and that's my job.
The fourth situation
How does the lock build deal with classes that have armour classes too high to hit? I built a master of many forms build that also took one level of fist of the forest and two levels of deepwarden that could get its armour class up to the high nineties without needing any buffs. I thought this was close to a record but someone pointed out a thread where the armor classes were in the 200s preepic. The lock down build seems worthless against such a build. In order to lock down another build it must first be able to hit the other combatant in order to deal damage that forces a reflex save. Of course most melee builds even gishes with persistant wraith strike cheese have the same problem with high armor class builds.
most such builds rely on colossal amounts of magic to do the job. Wildshape and shapechanging are SU abilities. If the AC is from buff spells, I can ignore all the AC from spells and strip them away with one PMP swing. If it's from magic as a whole, I can AMF, suck them in, and once they are inside it, not let them go. I'll still be at +32 or so to hit.
For instance, what was the AC of your build with access to no magic? I'm guessing much, much worse then 90. I even noted mine in the build, for emphasis.
The vast majority of those builds rely on shapechanging cheese and stat-buffing to incredible levels via items and spells to do what they do. Strip those out, and suddenly they are all hittable.
Hence, the ability to AMF should be a standard tactic for high level melees, just to avoid this nonsense.
ALso, I emphasized To Hit over Dmg in the build, which is why it's a Stone Dragon weapon (in stance all the time = +7Th/+4 dmg). With Power Attack as an option, you could swap out Greater Weapon Spec when you felt like doing an extra point or 4 of dmg.
The fifth situation
How does the lock build deal with the kensai ability to turn reflex saves into concentration checks? With the huge increases items give to ability checks the high reflex saves become manageable Will this mean that dips into kensai to get the reflex save change will become necessary to deal with the monster that the lock build promises to other melee users? If so I would change the requirement that you have to be lawful in my home campaigns to allow barbarians access to the kensai class since such an ability is needed to survive in the future apocalypse that is presented by the lock build.
I am unfamiliar with the kensai, and with any possible restrictions on this abilty, such as only usable once a round? Keep in mind that he is going to have to hit a DC 68 or higher save at level 16 (against an Assault Lock). Even with a +20 Item, that means he needs +38 of other bonuses to have a 50% chance to make the save. If he wants to spend his money on this instead of a teleport effect, more power to him when the casters lock him down with a no-save forcecage.
The sixth situation
How does the lock build deal with tower shields? Once again I do not have the reference but recently a thread mentioned that an antimagic field is an emanation and as such total cover blocks it. Once again a tower shield gives total cover. I am one who feels that RAI a tower shield has to give a direction that it faces and flanking attacks and back stabs do not get the total cover. However, I do not believe that the tower shield by RAW has to give a facing direction. I also dislike the whole idea that total cover effectively prevents an anti magic field. However my personal dislikes do not come into play, so an answer must be presented to deal with tower shields since the antimagic field is so necessary for the lock build to take out magic users. By RAW I am not sure if magic users can cast spells behind tower shields since they prevent attack actions but I am not sure if a spell is considered an attack action? (Tower shields as written in the player handbook is simply poorly written in my opinion.) However, if tower shields do not prevent spells from being cast than all magic users will spend a feat to gain shield proficiency in the evolving world of D&D in order to survive against the lock build.
That means that magic users once again trump anything a melee combatant can do except for situations where they lose initiative and happen to get one shot. Because of the power of 9th level spells that is highly unlikely.
Tower shield proficiency would take a level in fighter, or TWO feat slots (shield prof + tower shield prof). o0, precious feats or caster levels, lost! (But casters never have to worry about those, right?)
An arcane caster with a Tower Shield would have monstrous casting penalties. A melee using it for Total Cover can't attack, so unless he opens it up to a Shield bonus so he CAN attack, I'm not worried about him.
Furthermore, you can't cast through a tower shield, correct. They are also HEAVY, and most casters simply won't have the strength to carry one. You can't slap an Animate on them and get the effect.
A caster employing a tower shield can be accessed by Disarming the Shield, which gets it out of the way (and how likely is he to win THAT opposed roll?), by Sundering the Shield (overpowering assault helps immensely with Sunder attempts), and by grappling the shield and/or caster (also unlikely to win the roll).
I'd also assume that any caster hiding behind a Tower shield is going to attract all sorts of ranged attack spell fun, since the shield doesn't block such stuff.
Lastly, there is a feat called Shielded Caster, allowing you to cast without provoking AoO's if you have a shield at the ready. It takes Shield Prof and combat casting to go, meaning either a wasted feat, a wasted melee level or ANOTHER feat, to builds which are already feat-starved. But, nobody ever worries about the fact fighters have tons of feats, and they don't, right?
The feat is basically only useful against people who have Mage Slayer. Otherwise, defensive casting does the same job for skill points into Concentration (which, as soon as you can hit a 24 every time in, you never need to raise again, which is what most casters prefer to have happen).
In conclusion, if you want to ignore any of these questions I won't be offended. However, if you decide any of them have merit mention the answer to the question by the number of the question to make it easier to follow. I love the lock build and it influences the way I make future characters. For example I will never make another bear warrior because it has no reach and is completely vulnerable to a lock down fighter. Of course no character is superior to every challenge to come its way. This is one of the reasons why this build is promising because it has a chance against magic users at high levels which seems to be lacking most melee combatants in D&D until now. So perhaps the fact that it is superior to many melee users but is still vulnerable to a few is not a bad thing. It still provides great battle field control and versatility for a fighter.
PS Previn lately has been doing a good job at cleaning up your build in terms of quantifying which items your build needs and can afford. I do believe he likes the build and is trying to be constructive and make the build better. It does seem that you got carried away with all the great items available that would benefit this build when you first created this thread. Is it possible that you would edit your first post when you come up with an appropriate gold coin amount of items that your build would use at level 20. This would help those who read the first page of this thread for the first time but skip all the future responses to get an appropriate idea of the necessities and strengths of the build. Once again, I apologize for my poor English abilities and the length of my response. I only wrote so much because I truly like the potential of the build and wondered what you would do in response to my six situations.
I'll see about Editing the Build. Ancestral Relic provides some play options here. I'll also note that relying on GMW from casters also allows you to save some cash, and if you are allowed to pay the xp for Wish spells (or Candle cheese to get Efreeti), you can still get Inherents of +5 to stats. Even worse, having an artificer around can give you +50% or more return on your magic items, resulting in gear inflation.
Keep in mind that this build becomes MUCH less powerful without Thicket, as Tumble gets around it easily then.
That's the main reason why I was loose with the gold. There's so many options for acquiring appropriate gear, or with proper teamwork being able to replace some with spells, that only key elements were considered prime.
===Aelryinth
I don't have the time to read every page right now...very impressive build, but how do you deal with MDJ?
No seriously. Because that would suck...and have the side effect of breaking all your plans.
Never let him get it off would be best, no? MDJ hoses everyone.
note that some cheesy buff-reliant caster melee gets hosed even worse, as he loses all his buff spells. I just go down to the core stuff that I get in an AMF. And that caster better hope he's not in my threat range, or he's locked and I'm REALLY going to murder him (the lock itself relies on NO magic items or spells!!!!).
===Aelryinth
In a real game, some DMs give out magic items like trinkets. Others are stingy. Leveling up from 1st to 20th you might see millions of GP go through your hands in the form of loot you discovered, and sold, or spent on wine, women and song.
Generally speaking, however, the guideline for appropriate character wealth per level is not how much you found over the levels, but how much you ought to currently have at that level.
It doesn't matter how you get to 20th level, or whether you've seen a million gp of crappy items flow through your hands over the years - the items you kept (or bought with the proceeds of other item sales) should total the 20th level guideline for wealth per level.
So whether you get to sacrifice X gp for an upgrade worth Xgp or whether you have to sell loot at 50%, or whether you get to craft using XP and Time for half your items value, it doesn't matter. Those things affect the journey to a particular wealth-level - not the destination.
I'm afraid I have to consider this complete nonsense, Razor. It means that Item creation feats, Artificer xp banks, and gold efficency/item creation efficiency boosts are TOTALLY WORTHLESS.
The ability of someone to leverage up the gold value of a person or party by taking appropriate feats is part of the game. Ancestral Relic is no different in this regard, it's simply limited to one weapon.
Counting the wealth of this weapon against your limit despite the feat made to make it more efficient is like saying we should count wizard spellcasting as permanent magic items and apply them against HIS limit. It just doesn't wash.
With your reasoning, what you'd get is that a party with an Artificer taking all the efficiency and Item creation feats would end up with the exact same amount of wealth as a party who just bought their item off the shelf. It doesn't work that way.
===aelryinth
I'm sorry if I missed it but is there an item for teleporting in there? I didn't notice any teleportation abilities in that list. No +10 spot item either.
Swapping in Ancestral Relic for GWS would give +49,000 gp to play with. (Assuming 196k of loot sold = 98k weapon, 98k of loot sacrificed = 98k weapon, leaving 98k to be sold for 49k of stuff.)
Taking Boots of teleportation down to 2/day would drop the price to 24k, and 1/day would be 12k. Even as secondary effects at +50%, they'd be affordable.
And without teleport access at high level, you are just asking for trouble.
these minor effects are the kind of thing you hope the party spellcaster will create for you, especially if you sack the xp instead of him, because they leverage everyone's gold.
===Aelryinth
Heh, I think this meltdown of V's is funnier IMO.
Politely ignores the fact that spells cast are only the END result of a bunch of spell preparation time. Power Word spells are likely huge, multisyllabic things with twisted pronunciations and mental gymnastics requiring exhaustive documentation and illustration as to how they work, and then the whole freaking bloody mess is discharged by saying "NOM".
Almost anti-climactic, really.
So, nothing wrong with Seven Pages
The END of the spell is one word, the spell itself is bloody hard!==Aelryinth
I'm afraid I have to consider this complete nonsense, Razor. It means that Item creation feats, Artificer xp banks, and gold efficency/item creation efficiency boosts are TOTALLY WORTHLESS.
This is why I said you are being fast and loose with some rules. Multiple people are trying to tell you your logic is faulty, and you just don't see it.
At best, the feat lets you trade in your lewt for the lewt you wanted, IE a +2 longsword for a +1 Shock Two Handed Sword. There's no gain there. You don't automagically get a +3 or whatever. The feat grants you flexibility as you level up, not more gold once you get to the top.
We don't gift a 20'th level artificer build with a mass of gold and XP, and we don't do it to crafter either. We go by what the gold table in the DMG says.
Tower shield proficiency would take a level in fighter, or TWO feat slots (shield prof + tower shield prof). o0, precious feats or caster levels, lost! (But casters never have to worry about those, right?)
An arcane caster with a Tower Shield would have monstrous casting penalties. A melee using it for Total Cover can't attack, so unless he opens it up to a Shield bonus so he CAN attack, I'm not worried about him.
Furthermore, you can't cast through a tower shield, correct. They are also HEAVY, and most casters simply won't have the strength to carry one. You can't slap an Animate on them and get the effect.
A caster employing a tower shield can be accessed by Disarming the Shield, which gets it out of the way (and how likely is he to win THAT opposed roll?), by Sundering the Shield (overpowering assault helps immensely with Sunder attempts), and by grappling the shield and/or caster (also unlikely to win the roll).
I'd also assume that any caster hiding behind a Tower shield is going to attract all sorts of ranged attack spell fun, since the shield doesn't block such stuff.
Lastly, there is a feat called Shielded Caster, allowing you to cast without provoking AoO's if you have a shield at the ready. It takes Shield Prof and combat casting to go, meaning either a wasted feat, a wasted melee level or ANOTHER feat, to builds which are already feat-starved. But, nobody ever worries about the fact fighters have tons of feats, and they don't, right?
The feat is basically only useful against people who have Mage Slayer. Otherwise, defensive casting does the same job for skill points into Concentration (which, as soon as you can hit a 24 every time in, you never need to raise again, which is what most casters prefer to have happen).
Regarding all of this->
I get the distinct impression both parties speaking of tower shields don't know the rules concerning them. The DO have a facing per the FAQ, and you DON'T need tower shield prof to use it for total cover. The strategy of a spell caster here, I would imagine, would be to use it for cover as a standard action, then cast a quickened dimension door to 400+ ft away, and the next turn drop the shield, start flying to avoid being within arms reach[and you can't fly b/c you're in an AMF] & either casting conjurations that work in AMF fields or disjunctioning in attempts to take down the field.
Which brings up a good point: Since 99% of this build depends on magic items to counter spells, why doesn't the caster just start off with a disjunction and call it a day? I know that *my* casters would take such tactics against a well equipped PC who there was a chance of defeat from.
edit-> Even worse, I know I have contingencies on my mages to dimension door away if an AMF is being cast/created within a certain radius of me. Using the tower shield trick would effectively allow this contingency to go off, negating the need for a quickened DD.
If I take Ancestral Relic at level 3, it stands to reason that I'll be taking advantage of my feat over time, not suddenly popping to level 20 and having money to spend. That IS how I'm approaching the feat.
You're approaching it as making you money which it does not do at all in any form. It will never increase your wealth beyond what you already have.
You seem to be of the point that Lockdown was never level 3 and had to sell loot to get money. Or only gets gold pieces for loot.
No you don't understand that selling something at half value is HALF VALUE. Sacrificing it at full value is an exact 1 to 1 conversion of market gp value.
Seriously, think it through! I wanted this build to be viable at ALL levels, not just at level 20. Ancestral Relic is a great tool for helping make that happen.
It's a good feat. You're just unable to use it correctly because you do not understand the value of items and the concept of half value.
It 'looks' like a twinkie tool when taken at level 20, if you say "Okay, I've got enough gems here that will be sold for 750k of gold to buy gear for my naked arse." And then with Ancestral relic you double the value of those gems, since you don't sell them at 50% of value, you sacrifice them at 100% of value. If you start at level 3 and build your weapon over time, it's not so twinkie-ish, and actually quite reasonable.
No you don't. You do not double the value of anything. You prevent the value from being cut in half. There is no monetary gain. This is a very simple concept.
Gems that can be sold for only 750,000 are still worth 1,500,000 gp (market value) as far as the game is concerned. A +1 long sword is worth 2300ish gp even if you sell it for 2 copper. Selling is a loss of funds.
So...
Some gems and a +1 sword is equal to 5,400 gp of wealth. It is equivalent as saying that you have 5,400 gp worth of stuff. Even if you could only sell if for half the value of the items, you calculate the half price by the market value for all of it. I.e. 5,400 gp.
So your wealth = 5,400. (Which incidentally is the correct wealth for a 4th level character to have collected in what ever form from adventuring.)
If right now you sell the gems at half cost you lose 1000 gp. This means you lost wealth and will be below the recommend wealth per level by 1000 gp (i.e. your wealth is now 4,400). It does not mean the gems are only worth 1,000 gp. (5,000 gp worth of diamonds can still be used to cast a Raise Dead even if you sold them for only 1 copper.)
If instead of selling those gems, you sacrificed them to improve your ancestral relic, the market cost of those items (2,000) is converted directly into a magic item at a 1 gp to 1 gp ratio. This mean your total wealth is exactly the same: 5,400 as when you started. There is no gain.
Again, the gem value did not change. All that is happening is that you are preventing a loss of wealth. You can sell the gems at half price, but half price is not their value. Note the 'half' in there? That's a big clue that you're screwing up how this works.
Starting item: 500 gp gem (value = 500gp)
500 gp gem sold = 250 gp left.
500 gp gem sacrificed = 500 gp item.
And yes Aelryinth, you logic is massively flawed. You're erroneously trying to calculate the market value based on what you could sell it for, which is clearly wrong on many, many levels. If you sold your gems at half cost and made 760,000, those gems were worth 1,500,000.
If I sold you a computer that retails for 2,000$ for 5$, does that change the value of the computer? (If you answered yes, then why can you then turn around and resell it at 2,000$?) If I instead traded you the 2,000$ computer for 2,000$ worth of CDs, did I make money?
I'm afraid I have to consider this complete nonsense, Razor. It means that Item creation feats, Artificer xp banks, and gold efficency/item creation efficiency boosts are TOTALLY WORTHLESS.
===aelryinth
Balderdash.
The wealth guidelines are exactly that : guidelines. A DM is free to give out more or less money and items, but the game assumes that certain level characters need appropriate level loot in order to be effective, and giving them more will make them more powerful than their level would otherwise entail.
The reason the CharOps board uses them is that they're an agreed-upon benchmark. Anyone can be over-powerful with magic items beyond their wealth curve. It doesn't take any skill to make a 1st level character who can whoop-butt if you can give him a Ring of Three Wishes.
Yet a major part of the game is the process of advancing from level to level, not standing back and comparing 20th level builds. Characters evolve and advance, and they get loot and magic items. During the process of that advancement, Item Creation feats are invaluable. You can make what you want instead of relying on finding it somewhere (for looting or for sale). You can make it for cheaper than it would cost to buy from a store. You can more easily sell off items that you don't want and use the money on materials to make the items you do, saving you money, with a little loss of time.
Yes, such things might let you pull ahead of the curve, but the DM has a job too - and his job is to adjust the amount of loot you get so that you don't break the game by being so far ahead of the Wealth By Level that you're overpowered. In fact - the very guidelines we're discussing are in the DMG under "Character Power Levels", and is introduced with the text
One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including magic items".
So at 20th level, if your campaign ever makes it that far, it's expected that many DMs should have adjusted your loot so that you're around that number. But the character with those feats is in much more control over how they get there.
And sure, many DMs don't do a great job of that adjustment, and your feats might end up putting you ahead of the wealth curve. But thats not something we can really use on the CharOps board. It's by no means a hard and fast calculation.
Your argument is like saying just because you and I both started in Los Angeles and ended up in New York that it makes no difference if you rode a tricycle, and I flew first class.
I beg to differ. The Journey makes all the difference, even if the destination is the same.
You can't take 760K Wealth, and use some XP and time and turn it into an magic item worth over a million GP. Because you'd have to sell the stuff that makes up the 760K for half that and use the materials you bought and some XP and time and you'd have an item that was worth (market price) ...760K.
These feats don't print money - they just give you more control over the gear you own.
And in most games, that control is invaluable.
His logic isn't a failure you guys-> it just isn't consistant with CharOp practices. If two fighters both found 100,000gp market value of rubies each, and only one of them had ancestoral weapon...the outcome would be this:
fighter 1: Sells 100,000gp worth to get 50,000gp. buys 50,000gp marketprice weapon.
fighter 2: Sacrifices 100,000gp market price for 100,000gp marketprice weapon.
If you treat the fighter build as a lone adventurer: then yes, the DM would probably just treat his wealth as what his current pocessions are. However, in a _real_ game of D&D with party dynamics, the fighter with ancestoral weapon would have 50k more marketprice worth of stuff than the rest of the party. [ie-> the rest of the charop builds on the forums?]
Take it or leave it, I suppose. Calling each other names over your logic is kind of silly, though, since both groups have good foundation to stand on. [CharOp forum tradition vs Practical table-top experience]
RE: Item creation feats
I believe standard good practice is that if you do use them here, you deduct xp and treat it like a level adjustment. [so crafting for even 1 xp worth of stuff will throw you down to level 19, as compared to other level 20 builds.]
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/whyitemsyoucraftcounthalf.html
rest of post deleted, reply to person on ignore list.
Might I add that, while I agree that Sean Reynolds may have a point about discriminating against those who took an Item Creation Feat if you limit their ability to use it, this doesn't translate into free extra gold at 20th level.
You can't take 760K Wealth, and use some XP and time and turn it into an magic item worth over a million GP. Because you'd have to sell the stuff that makes up the 760K for half that and use the materials you bought and some XP and time and you'd have an item that was worth (market price) ...760K.
These feats don't print money - they just give you more control over the gear you own.
And in most games, that control is invaluable.
they do print money, because you end up with more extra gold then someone who does not have the feat.
Ditto Ancestral relic. I'm not telling anyone to plop down a level 20 character and play it. This is a build, it's designed to be levelled up and customized. And I'm giving people the tools to do it, and you're all saying it can't be done because Characters at level 20 get exactly 760k of gold coins to spend and that's it.
In this instance, I'm levering my plethora of optional feats to create more gold to acquire more extra magical items as I level up. I personally think it's a DAMN GOOD use of the Fighter's extra feats...and something else another build is going to have a hard time emulating.
===Aelryinth
RE: Beating up on the OP for his ancestoral weapon logic
His logic isn't a failure you guys-> it just isn't consistant with CharOp practices. If two fighters both found 100,000gp market value of rubies each, and only one of them had ancestoral weapon...the outcome would be this:
fighter 1: Sells 100,000gp worth to get 50,000gp. buys 50,000gp marketprice weapon.
fighter 2: Sacrifices 100,000gp market price for 100,000gp marketprice weapon.
If you treat the fighter build as a lone adventurer: then yes, the DM would probably just treat his wealth as what his current pocessions are. However, in a _real_ game of D&D with party dynamics, the fighter with ancestoral weapon would have 50k more marketprice worth of stuff than the rest of the party.
Except that's not what he's doing. The key point is you include market price as the starting point and aelryinth doesn't. He's counting the half value that he could sell it at as the value of the item, and then doubling that when he makes a sacrifice. And that's the problem.
Using your example and a 100,000 gp value gem.
aelryinth is calling the 100,000 gp value gem as worth only 50,000 since that's all he could sell it for. (He always cites the sell value, not the actual value).
So:
fighter 1: Sells 50,000gp gem to get 50,000gp. buys 50,000gp marketprice weapon.
fighter 2: Sacrifices 50,000gp gem for 100,000gp marketprice weapon.
So he now looks at this and sees that sacrificing the item "gained" him 50,000 gp. So it must make him money. Problem being... the value of the gem was 100,000.
Edit: Case in point:
No, Previn, it's you who are in error. Selling off loot for gold gives you your final tally of gold for the level. You are making the error that the tally comes BEFORE then.
If you do not allow the Item creation guy to leverage his xp for gold, and thus end up with more gear then the rest of the party, who can, by the rules, just go out and custom order anything that he can possibly make, for the exact final tally of gold (because he's not allowed to have more gear then them, despite spending only half the gold!),
Give me ONE reason why any caster in a party would ever bother taking the feat. he's not going to have any more gear then the party, and he'll be out the xp, to boot.
==Aelryinth
1 Reason : he has the control - not the DM. In almost every game I've ever played, the DM gets to control
a) The Monsters you kill to get the loot
b) the shop keepers who you try to sell the loot to
c) the Magic Item owners who you want to buy your preferred doodad from.
Most DMs like to control not just what your stuff is worth, but what type of stuff it is. Heck, even if they're not that pent up about it, they're often running off-the-shelf adventures, which hand out bland "whatever" stuff like "+1 Longsword" or "+2 Leather armor" .
And assuming there's even a magic shop in the area, the chances of getting that +2 Studded Leather of Shadow or that +3 Mithral Full Plate of Slippery Moves you had your eye on are slim to none.
The Wizard with Craft Wondrous can make all the nifty stuff that the DM didn't think to put in the adventure without losing even more money.
Remember - you sell a +1 longsword, you get 1/2 the gold for it. If you wanted to buy a +1 greatsword, you'd need to sell two of the longswords to get enough gold. Someone with the Item Creation feats can sell one of them and buy materials to make the other for the proceeds.
That's the reason, and it's a great one.
If you assume that you have instant access to any item you could ever want, then yeah, the Item Creation feats aren't that great in those games. But in every game I've ever played in, they're fantastic.
No, Previn, it's you who are in error. Selling off loot for gold gives you your final tally of gold for the level. You are making the error that the tally comes BEFORE then.
==Aelryinth
Where the hell are you getting this from ?
Your characters net worth is his cash + the market value of his gear.
THE MARKET VALUE.
Not the cash he could get if he sells it for half price, but the VALUE of the item. The VALUE of the item is always the market value.
No, Previn, it's you who are in error. Selling off loot for gold gives you your final tally of gold for the level. You are making the error that the tally comes BEFORE then.
Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters.
How much wealth should the PC have? Determined by the treasure gained in the encounters. No mention of selling. No mention of converting. It would have to be tallied before it's handed out since selling isn't an assured half price (haggling shoots that in the foot doesn't it?), which would make the table worthless.
Basically you're wrong.
Even if it was tallied after, it wouldn't change the market value. A 500 gp gem is always worth 500gp even if you sell it at 2 gp. All you're doing is handing out way more items than you should be if you're guessing what a PC might sell something for and handing out extra to make up for that. You also wouldn't be following the wealth guild lines.
Which incidentally might explain why you tend to toss gear at a problem like it's going out of style.
Regarding all of this->
I get the distinct impression both parties speaking of tower shields don't know the rules concerning them. The DO have a facing per the FAQ, and you DON'T need tower shield prof to use it for total cover. The strategy of a spell caster here, I would imagine, would be to use it for cover as a standard action, then cast a quickened dimension door to 400+ ft away, and the next turn drop the shield, start flying to avoid being within arms reach[and you can't fly b/c you're in an AMF] & either casting conjurations that work in AMF fields or disjunctioning in attempts to take down the field.
Which brings up a good point: Since 99% of this build depends on magic items to counter spells, why doesn't the caster just start off with a disjunction and call it a day? I know that *my* casters would take such tactics against a well equipped PC who there was a chance of defeat from.
edit-> Even worse, I know I have contingencies on my mages to dimension door away if an AMF is being cast/created within a certain radius of me. Using the tower shield trick would effectively allow this contingency to go off, negating the need for a quickened DD.
This is typical "Casterz ro0lz" logic, I'm afraid. It's assuming the melee is really, really dense.
1) If I'm in an AMF, and you're in an AMF and somehow not affected, my prioirty is to get you affected. Oddly enough, I have melee attacks which give me options to do just that. Grapple, Disarm, and Sunder are some. Moving up right next to you so that you no longer have Cover from me (read the Cover rules) also does the job. Any contested rolls of BAB+Str, which is all of the above, you are going to lose (I should have at least a +17 bonus over you)
2) Wow, Quickened Dimension Door sure is handy. Probably only got one of those, right? 8th level spell? But, I'm either going to go around your Cover (if indeed it has facing) or I'm going to Disarm it so you are in an AMF. In which case you can't cast it. Picking up the Tower Shield will provoke an AoO, in which case I'll just strip it from you again. If I have Assault going, I might just be able to split it in two with one swing, if I'm using a Glaive.
3) You seem to have forgotten that after you DimDoor, you're done for the round. Teleport would let you move.
4) You're going to go flying, fine, all that is assuming I'm in an AMF, not that I couldn't keep you in it. If I'm going to pop an AMF, I'm going to make damn sure you are affected.
5) Contingency is very ambiguous on timing issues. If I'm right next to you when the AMF goes up, you can't DimDoor out, because you are in an AMF. If I'm dumb enough to AMF wayoverthere, then I deserve what's coming.
6) If your contingency goes off, so what? Sorry, sir, you can't cast fly on the same turn...read Dim Door. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
7) I now teleport up next to your helpless self, and repeat my actions. The AMF doesn't go off unless I can lock you into it. And you know, with a belt of battle, flying, and haste, he can do a Run action that covers 720'? Or just do one for 360', take a SA via the Belt, move up next to you, and my choice of PMP you, ready an action to disrupt a spell, or activate my torc? Which would be really funny if we are both airborne and you go dropping with me to the ground.
==============
MDJ is a Short Range 40' r burst effect. It screws every single class out there, which includes other casters. If I have a readied action to attack you when you cast a spell, you will never get it off. You will be entirely within my charge range (max range of the spell is 75', belt of battle for an extra move action), I have access to flying if need be, and you'll lose the spell and be within my Lock range. Better yet, it wouldn't even hit me even if it got off, because you can't change the target area. You know, I even have Spellcraft trained to let me know what you are casting? It's part of PMP and MS.
I'll also note that if you have Contingency to flit when an AMF goes up nearby, you don't have one to get out of my melee range. By simple dint of readied actions to thwart any quickened spells, you will never get any spells off if you are in my threat radius. Thinking I will not take a Tower Shield into account for my tactics is playing Lockdown like a mannequin. This is a build for tactics, not an ubercharger.
=+Aelryinth
Where the hell are you getting this from ?
Your characters net worth is his cash + the market value of his gear.
THE MARKET VALUE.
Not the cash he could get if he sells it for half price, but the VALUE of the item. The VALUE of the item is always the market value.
Likewise, where are yuo possibly getting the idea that my wealth comes from stuff I've gotten rid of?
760k of wealth could be 1,520k of gems you sell for Market value...1/2 price. It then allows me to go and pick up the gear I'm entitled to.
760k of wealth could be gold coins, ready to spend. It then allows me to go and pick up the gear I'm entitled to.
Or, with Ancestral Relic, it could combine the two, so that I can have 760k of gems and 380k of cold coins, and I sac this 380 k of 760k of gems worth 190K if I sold them, and pump it into my sweet sword. Thus leaving me with +190k more then Joe Barbarian over there.
You're waving your hands and saying that's not how it works. I'm sorry to inform you that it IS how it works. The feats let you do that.
And if you're dumb enough to sell 500 gp gem for 2 gp, you just sacrificed 248 gp of your wealth limit, so you have LESS then you are entitled to per level. The DM is not obligated to make it up to you.
Come ON, Previn, drop the argument. It isn't holding water.
===Aelryinth
1 Reason : he has the control - not the DM. In almost every game I've ever played, the DM gets to control
a) The Monsters you kill to get the loot
b) the shop keepers who you try to sell the loot to
c) the Magic Item owners who you want to buy your preferred doodad from.
Most DMs like to control not just what your stuff is worth, but what type of stuff it is. Heck, even if they're not that pent up about it, they're often running off-the-shelf adventures, which hand out bland "whatever" stuff like "+1 Longsword" or "+2 Leather armor" .
And assuming there's even a magic shop in the area, the chances of getting that +2 Studded Leather of Shadow or that +3 Mithral Full Plate of Slippery Moves you had your eye on are slim to none.
The Wizard with Craft Wondrous can make all the nifty stuff that the DM didn't think to put in the adventure without losing even more money.
Remember - you sell a +1 longsword, you get 1/2 the gold for it. If you wanted to buy a +1 greatsword, you'd need to sell two of the longswords to get enough gold. Someone with the Item Creation feats can sell one of them and buy materials to make the other for the proceeds.
That's the reason, and it's a great one.
If you assume that you have instant access to any item you could ever want, then yeah, the Item Creation feats aren't that great in those games. But in every game I've ever played in, they're fantastic.
But this is not the mechanical effect of taking the feat. You are confusing Role Playing with feat mechanics.
The PH and DMG assume that you can buy ANYTHING up to the local wealth limit. Period. The fact individual DM's don't like this...the feat is written up against THAT fact. Control is irrelevant to the issue. The only time Control MIGHT be an issue is if you are somewhere the wealth limit is so low you can't purchase said item...in which case, you can access 'half' the wealth need by making it yourself and buying the stuff.
So control isn't the issue in the broad game. It's turning XP into gold and having more gear.
===Aelryinth
RE: Beating up on the OP for his ancestoral weapon logic
His logic isn't a failure you guys-> it just isn't consistant with CharOp practices. If two fighters both found 100,000gp market value of rubies each, and only one of them had ancestoral weapon...the outcome would be this:
fighter 1: Sells 100,000gp worth to get 50,000gp. buys 50,000gp marketprice weapon.
fighter 2: Sacrifices 100,000gp market price for 100,000gp marketprice weapon.
If you treat the fighter build as a lone adventurer: then yes, the DM would probably just treat his wealth as what his current pocessions are. However, in a _real_ game of D&D with party dynamics, the fighter with ancestoral weapon would have 50k more marketprice worth of stuff than the rest of the party. [ie-> the rest of the charop builds on the forums?]
Take it or leave it, I suppose. Calling each other names over your logic is kind of silly, though, since both groups have good foundation to stand on. [CharOp forum tradition vs Practical table-top experience]
RE: Item creation feats
I believe standard good practice is that if you do use them here, you deduct xp and treat it like a level adjustment. [so crafting for even 1 xp worth of stuff will throw you down to level 19, as compared to other level 20 builds.]
Thank you. This is exactly what is going on.
Market Value has two numbers. What you can SELL stuff for, and what you can BUY it for. These apply at different times.
The standard wealth limit says you have 760 gp of gold equivalence, go out and buy your gear.
The item creation feats say you can take that gold, and leverage your xp to create stuff for half price, thus increasing your wealth limit.
The Ancestral Relic feat says you can take those gold equivalents, and instead of sellinig them off for half price, sack them for full price, thus increasing your wealth limit.
it really doesn't get any more basic. And if you can't understand that, we don't have a logic discussion, we just have a shouting match.
====Aelryinth
Market Value has two numbers. What you can SELL stuff for, and what you can BUY it for. These apply at different times.
====Aelryinth
No. It doesn't.
Read the DMG - "Characters can usually sell items for half their market value."
The Market Value is the full price. You can sell stuff for half that, usually. Sometimes you'll get the whole value because the item is a "commodity" item.
That does not mean "market value" is different when you sell something, it just means you're not able to recoup the entire value of the item when you sell it.
It's all right there. Your total worth as a character is the market value of your magic items + any cash you have. The DM's job is to limit your power by ensuring that you don't exceed those limits, AND the CharOps board designs within those limits because they are an agreed-upon benchmark.
In your game, you're quite welcome to have characters who break those limits, or to expect to make more cash effectively over time because you're able to burn items directly to power your relic. That's a definite advantage. But it doesn't give you more money at the end of your career UNLESS THE DM WAIVES THE GUIDELINES.
Given that we don't build characters here that waive those guidelines, you're limited to 760K.
The standard wealth limit says you have 760 gp of gold equivalence, go out and buy your gear.
The item creation feats say you can take that gold, and leverage your xp to create stuff for half price, thus increasing your wealth limit.
====Aelryinth
Again - you're wrong. The item creation limits don't say any such thing. They allow you to take XP and materials (which you buy) and make items. Those items that you've created have a market value. When calculating what your characters effective wealth is, you add those market values together with however much gold you have left (and any other loot you found) and that's your net worth.
In other words : if you're creating a character of 20th level who will never be played, then YES- ITEM CREATION FEATS ARE USELESS TO YOU.
The Wealth By Level guidelines are not a credit-card the DM gives your character. They are a way of assessing your characters power level. If the DM lets you break the limit, it's his own fault. How you reach that limit is irrelevant. If you used Item Creation to do it more efficiently, that's great. If, throughout your career, you were consistently ahead of the wealth-limit because of judicious use of funds, and canny salesmanship - fantastic ! But when you hit 20th level, the DM ought to have limited some of the other loot you got, maybe bilked you on a couple of deals, stole your favourite Holy Avenger, or made sure you were killed a couple of times so you had to pay for a Raise Dead or two, just so that you have roughly 760K gp net worth.
The DMG is a Guide... for DM's! It's filled with wonderful advice for DMs to rein in players that get out of control because they twisted some rule or other to make it look like they're entitled to more power than they really are. As such the Wealth By Level Guidelines are not an accounting book you can cook. They are an aid to ROLE PLAYING. Yes, I said it. Some people still do it, and you can't make it sound dirty just because it can't be reduced to mathematical expression.
Ergo, I can leverage the Ancestral Relic feat all I choose to. I'm not 'limited' to 760K gp of gear if I have the feat and assume I'm going to wisely use it over the life of the character.
Assuming otherwise is sheer nerfage. Let us not go there. I designed the character to be played for the entire career, tactics to use early and late, and the level 20 is the destination you are working for the whole time, not the starting point, which you seem to think it is. Over time, you have been sacking goodies to your weapon to raise it's power, which has resulted in a larger amount of gold available to you for other things.
Item creation use is the same way, if applied over the lifetime of a character.
I am not making an Arena build, I'm making a play build. I don't have to obey the 'strict' 760k limit if I have that feat, it is as simple as that. I am entitled to have more money available, because I took the feat.
===Aelryinth
Again - you're wrong. The item creation limits don't say any such thing. They allow you to take XP and materials (which you buy) and make items. Those items that you've created have a market value. When calculating what your characters effective wealth is, you add those market values together with however much gold you have left (and any other loot you found) and that's your net worth.
In other words : if you're creating a character of 20th level who will never be played, then YES- ITEM CREATION FEATS ARE USELESS TO YOU.
The Wealth By Level guidelines are not a credit-card the DM gives your character. They are a way of assessing your characters power level. If the DM lets you break the limit, it's his own fault. How you reach that limit is irrelevant. If you used Item Creation to do it more efficiently, that's great. If, throughout your career, you were consistently ahead of the wealth-limit because of judicious use of funds, and canny salesmanship - fantastic ! But when you hit 20th level, the DM ought to have limited some of the other loot you got, maybe bilked you on a couple of deals, stole your favourite Holy Avenger, or made sure you were killed a couple of times so you had to pay for a Raise Dead or two, just so that you have roughly 760K gp net worth.
The DMG is a Guide... for DM's! It's filled with wonderful advice for DMs to rein in players that get out of control because they twisted some rule or other to make it look like they're entitled to more power than they really are. As such the Wealth By Level Guidelines are not an accounting book you can cook. They are an aid to ROLE PLAYING. Yes, I said it. Some people still do it, and you can't make it sound dirty just because it can't be reduced to mathematical expression.
The DM is then penalizing me for having taken the feat, which is unfair, unbalanced, and biased. Why did all the other characters get everything I did, without having to sacrifice a feat and time to do it?
And as people like to mention, over and over, role-playing doesn't balance most feat playing mechanics. Especially ones that have nothing to do with alignment or campaign settings.
No, this doesn't hold water, either, Erazor. Just drop it, okay?
===Aelryinth
The DM is then penalizing me for having taken the feat, which is unfair, unbalanced, and biased. Why did all the other characters get everything I did, without having to sacrifice a feat and time to do it?
And as people like to mention, over and over, role-playing doesn't balance most feat playing mechanics. Especially ones that have nothing to do with alignment or campaign settings.
No, this doesn't hold water, either, Erazor. Just drop it, okay?
===Aelryinth
Delusions of persecution there? It's not the DM penalizing you for taking a feat, that's just how it works. Life isn't always fair. You obviously don't understand the benefits or mechanics involved here.
For further proof that it's full market price for treasures I direct you to the DMG, Pg. 54, Building Treasures! Column 1, Paragraph 2... which shows the exact breakdown and who to determine what is in a collection of treasure (hint it uses full market value). I then direct you in that same section to the comparison between using this method and expected PC wealth by level!
I'll pull out the MiC for further proof later, specifically pages 228-230 and 265. As well as appendix 2 from said book, all of which only work with the full market value system.
I would also challenge you to find a published adventure or scenario that doesn't follow these guide lines and use full market value when placing treasure!
This is typical "Casterz ro0lz" logic, I'm afraid. It's assuming the melee is really, really dense.
I'm not sure it was typical so much as effective tactics.
1) If I'm in an AMF, and you're in an AMF and somehow not affected, my prioirty is to get you affected.
It takes 1 standard action to ready the towershield[not affected now] & no action at all to either contingency DD or quicken DD. This gives you NO time to sunder/disarm/etc. I'm not hiding behind a towershield-> I'm using it tactically to avoid the AMF field for a split second so I can get away.
Oddly enough, I have melee attacks which give me options to do just that.
You don't have time to execute these manuvers. You spent your last standard action activating AMF.
Moving up right next to you so that you no longer have Cover from me
No...
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall).
Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Tower shield grants total cover. If our bases are touching & the side between us is the side the tower shield is facing, & you have the AMF up-> you have no corners that can get to me without crossing the tower shield. Thus, I still have total cover.
2) Wow, Quickened Dimension Door sure is handy. Probably only got one of those, right? 8th level spell? But, I'm either going to go around your Cover (if indeed it has facing) or I'm going to Disarm it so you are in an AMF. In which case you can't cast it. Picking up the Tower Shield will provoke an AoO, in which case I'll just strip it from you again. If I have Assault going, I might just be able to split it in two with one swing, if I'm using a Glaive.
Again-> DD contingencied or Quickened DD will do the job nicely, and I don't see these as things that are uncommon. I'm a level 20 caster, so I have 9th level spells-> and 8th level one is fair game. As stated before-> the cover isn't there until MY turn[my standard action to ready the shield], so you can't just "walk around it". Since I'm using a free-action spell to get away afterwards, you have no way of working this unless you are readying actions to walk around/disarm/sunder. But then, if you're readying actions then we're just in a staring contest, aren't we?
3) You seem to have forgotten that after you DimDoor, you're done for the round. Teleport would let you move.
Doesn't matter. With your AMF field up you have no chance of moving 400+40*20=1,200 ft in one turn. You need a standard action to dismiss your AMF.
4) You're going to go flying, fine, all that is assuming I'm in an AMF, not that I couldn't keep you in it. If I'm going to pop an AMF, I'm going to make damn sure you are affected.
Once you've put up your AMF, I can start flying. Once you put down your AMF, you don't get it anymore for the rest of the day. That's the problem.
5) Contingency is very ambiguous on timing issues. If I'm right next to you when the AMF goes up, you can't DimDoor out, because you are in an AMF.
The contingency would go off because you are in the process of activating an area effect that I am in. It would be a useless contingency if I stated "I want to dimension door away after the effect takes place", since this wouldn't save me from various area-effect damage spells, disjunctions, etc, etc.
6) If your contingency goes off, so what? Sorry, sir, you can't cast fly on the same turn...read Dim Door. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
Doesn't matter. I'm 1,200 ft away & your in an AMF. What you gonna do?
7) I now teleport up next to your helpless self
From inside your AMF field?
and repeat my actions.
With your AMF 1/day item?
he can do a Run action that covers 720'?
Dimension door takes me 1,200. Close, but no cigar.
MDJ is a Short Range 40' r burst effect. It screws every single class out there, which includes other casters. If I have a readied action to attack you when you cast a spell, you will never get it off. You will be entirely within my charge range (max range of the spell is 75', belt of battle for an extra move action), I have access to flying if need be, and you'll lose the spell and be within my Lock range. Better yet, it wouldn't even hit me even if it got off, because you can't change the target area. You know, I even have Spellcraft trained to let me know what you are casting? It's part of PMP and MS.
If you think I'm going to walk up to you & cast disjunction while letting you take actions, you must be joking. Typical wizardy tactics will be to be using a phantasmal mount to get that 240 ft fly speed & be casting while mounted[concentration check is nothing at this level]. However, I am beginning to see this conversation going no where...
I'll also note that if you have Contingency to flit when an AMF goes up nearby, you don't have one to get out of my melee range.
Except that dim door WILL bring me out of your melee range. The spell goes a huge distance.
By simple dint of readied actions to thwart any quickened spells, you will never get any spells off if you are in my threat radius.
When you put up the AMF field you use your standard action. No readied actions for you at this point.
Thinking I will not take a Tower Shield into account for my tactics is playing Lockdown like a mannequin.
I'm not trying to blackhat you entirely[read my comments on Ancestoral weapon], but I really think you're short-selling wizards ability to be prepared. I don't know whether this is because you've never played with a skilled wizard or whatever-> but the Locke requires so much planning attack-wise that I don't see a way for you to account for everything. The wizard can do all of the tactics I've stated at the same time: yet you use the tactics of 1) Using a standard action to put up AMF, 2) Readying a standard action to deal with the tower shield, 3) running impossible distances to catch up with a teleporting wizard, 4) if you can't run long enough, teleporting while still in an AMF field.
I haven't even begun to bring in matrix sequencer spells & chain contingency cheese. [or even the craft contingency feat!] Hell, I haven't even brought into being the all-resilient Psion5/Psion Uncarnate 10 -> a build that Locke has no way to kill _at all_. Or the True Necromancer who is bring thousands of hd of undead with him, who will merely smother locke by sheer numbers.
This is a great melee build. I admit that it can take down a good number of spellcasters[especially those with mundane tactics who don't normally have to deal with DMs trying to kill them]. But you can't honestly believe it will take down every type of spellcaster. No character can take down every type of spell caster. There's always a foil.
I'm not sure there's much point in arguing further. If you've been arguing for 22 pages about this build, you might just be closed off to the idea that your char can be brought down.
Multiple people are quoteing rules right out of the DMG and SRD in their full context and you simply say "I don't agree with that line of thought". Right now it's your convaluted line of reason Vs printed rules and guidlines. And to be quite frank I don't see your name in any credits for any of the printed official books so your in the wrong here.
I'll Disarm the shield from you, or sunder it, before I lock myself into an unwinnable situation. In other words, you are taking events out of order and assuming I wouldn't know what would happen.
And if a spellcaster is lugging around a Tower Shield for some odd reason, I'd probably best do something about it, right? that's basically the essence of your post. Nyah, nyah, Ihave a Tower Shield and you can't stop me?
hello? Nyah,nyah, i can take your tower shield away from you, and you can't stop me?
Your whole post is about a melee being tactically idiotic with AMF, and 'caster winz'. The ridiculous situation of a caster even doing this with a tower shield for 20 levels is bad enough, but that a smart melee will play the game to lose is worse.
Invincible? No, a couple spread out ranged attackers can easily deal with him. But I made him to take care of obvious situations.
He's quick enough to move a long ways. He can teleport if he has to, to make sure of this. Getting close to his targets is key. The AMF is a tool of last resort, and its main use is against buff-bunnies whose stuff he can't dispel or PMP.
Invincible? No, but I put a lot of thought into what he has and what he can do, and something as simple, yet strange as a tower shield is not going to be the be-all and end-all of solutions to facing him, that's for certain.
And BTW, I've yet to see a Caster build anywhere that totes around a tower shield, so I will admit, you are certainly getting a lot more inventive then the "Celerity + Shapechange ro0lz" crowd.
===Aelryinth
aelryinth, By your arguments for ancestral relic any PC with the mercintile background, good diplomacy checks, or any other means of haggleing/ changing the normal sell values of loot would throw the values and power balance for it right out the window. It's a pretty clear indication that your line of reason is wrong.
Multiple people are quoteing rules right out of the DMG and SRD in their full context and you simply say "I don't agree with that line of thought". Right now it's your convaluted line of reason Vs printed rules and guidlines. And to be quite frank I don't see your name in any credits for any of the printed official books so your in the wrong here.
Mercantile background is indeed a money-making build and will do the same thing. However, we've only the sell for 1/2 price mechanic to work off of, and it is totally obvious that for this one situation with the weapon, this is how it works.
SKR's reasoning backs what I am saying, and his name IS on the books. All over the place, in fact.
So, no, I'm afraid you interjecting I'm wrong, when one of the biggest developers in the industry is unabashedly, almost off-handedly saying "Of course he has more, he took the feat" just isn't going to fly.
So. Can we drop the subject?
===Aelryinth
The argument about ancestral weapon boils down to one difference in definition. Most people are arguing that a player who levels up to 20 will only get 380,000 gold to buy good items because they will have to sell back the crap they got from adventuring for 50%. Yes ancestral weapon according to them will make you money. You might even approach 760,000 gold. However, you will never make more than 760,000 gold unless you sold items back for more than 100% of the item value. You are saying that the money guide should mean that everyone gets 760,000 gold worth of good items when leveling up to 20. Using this argument a person would need to acquire 1,520,000 gold worth of items to sell. I think the first argument has more solid backing according to RAW then yours. If you start the game at level 20 you get 760,000 gold and more flexibility than if you leveled up to 20, but you cant pay more than 25% of your gold on one item. Ancestral relic would increase the amount of gold that you can spend on one item so it still benefits but it would not gain you any extra gold over the 760,000 gold piece limit. Because the two sides are both arguing interpretations of how they interpret the wealth guidelines can we forget the argument and simply say that you started the game at level 20 can pay 760,000 gold on items to make your build useful at level 20. Then simply state that taking the ancestral relic helps build an uber weapon and saves money. Because in reality it does make money, but the question is whether it increases the limit over 380,000 like the first group thinks or 760,000 gold like you think. The reason I propose this solution is because that is how the majority of level 20 builds are presented on the CO pages and it makes it easy to compare builds. Getting candles of invocation cheese and getting free inherent stat increases is cheap but it is cheese that not every DM will allow so it should not be listed as a requisite of any build on CO pages. Besides your player does not need the inherent buffs to be plus five or even plus one to be effective at what it does. Already without them it completely shuts down all melee without range which is a huge proportion of monsters. I would take this build just for that reason in a campaign against standard mobs. It has great battle field control and mobility which is a plus for many fighters. I mean I hate that it seems I was trapped into playing an ubercharging powerattack monkey that is trapped into charging every attack for maximum efficiency. You are belittling your own build if you think you need all the items you list to be good at what you do. So simply list those that are most useful and everyone will be happy.
By the way I listed the tower shield option first and it is only good if you play the game where a tower shield has no facing. If it does have facing it is useless. Take a trick called twisted charge from complete adventurer and be able to take a 90 degree change in direction once while moving towards your target. The shield is no longer a factor. It only is effective if it gives total cover against all directions. Something I don't think is appropriate according to RAI but I am still unsure of its RAW meaning because I feel it is poorly worded. Then the only argument of whether the mage can cast DD is whether you feel contingency can occur before the event that triggers it. If contingency DD away any time a AMF occurs happens before the AMF occurs than contingency trumps anything. If such a broad definition of contingency exists in the game the DM has to get very crafty and come up with lots of events that trigger the contingencies costing the magic user those slots for useless events, thus forcing the magic user to spend resources. I feel that an AMF trumps contingency if the magic user is exposed to it, but there is no way to win an argument against someone who feels the contingency occurs before the event that triggers the contingency. However, I am rambling again. Back to the point of the tower shields they are worthless for 90% of a casters job and if they require a facing they are worthless in stopping the lock build so I drop that as a flaw in your design. only arena duel arguments on the CO board will ever see someone posting the use of a tower shield as a potential solution since all arena duel arguments use hind sight heavily to prove superiority of a favorite class.
In real play with a bunch of friends going up against mobs for exp your lock build is very useful. It reminds me of the TOB builds that increase versatility and flexibility of melee classes and as such it succeeds in my opinion. Thus I hate to see the thread dwindle into an argument about worthless gear. Switch to plus two inherent bonuses to your stats and you only lose plus one to many abililties over plus four bonuses to stats not a huge difference, but a huge decrease in price. Take all the arguments about your build as proof that it has potential to be a great build. Otherwise it would garner no interest whatsoever. Also please think about renaming this thread to be the lock build handbook. I have seen three or four lock build offshoots as people take the ideas in this thread and decide to do their own thing with thicket of blades martial stance and stand still feat. If you do decide to make it a handbook then edit your original post for ease of use.
Mercantile background is indeed a money-making build and will do the same thing. However, we've only the sell for 1/2 price mechanic to work off of, and it is totally obvious that for this one situation with the weapon, this is how it works.
SKR's reasoning backs what I am saying, and his name IS on the books. All over the place, in fact.
So, no, I'm afraid you interjecting I'm wrong, when one of the biggest developers in the industry is unabashedly, almost off-handedly saying "Of course he has more, he took the feat" just isn't going to fly.
So. Can we drop the subject?
===Aelryinth
GIve a pg number and book with rules to support this or you drop it since multiple other people have given pg numbers and books with rules that contradict you. The DMG says that at 20th level you have so much wealth. It does not say how you got it becuase it does not care and they know that not every game is the same. Your delusion of how the character gains this wealth is not rules based but only based on your own idea of how it should work. Thats not enough. So again burned of proof is on the accusor, You say it should work this way then you post rules to support it or it doesn't fly.
You're again assuming I'm going to spring the AMF with you sitting there with a Tower Shield so you can block it. That's nonsense. Myjob is to get you INTO the AMF and KEEP you there. If I can't keep you there, I'm not going to activate it.
The entire point of the AMF in the first place was to make sure the wizardy-type stays still. If you spend your actions disarming/sundering/whatever, then I get a turn to react-> which means the AMF field strat gets invalidated at this point. [it really only takes 1 turn for a wizard to get away, no?]
edit-> I re-read your post and saw that you consider this to be a primary strategy against buff-bunnies. Given that pretty much every mage in existence has a buff sequence of _some_ sort, doesn't that imply you'd be using it all the time? My initial assumption that it was to keep mages still was merely based on my own knowledge of extreme abilities of the wiz types to move around at a moments notice.
Your whole post is about a melee being tactically idiotic with AMF, and 'caster winz'.
Thanks for assuming _I'm_ an idiot, but what I was pointing out was that your tactics don't give you enough time to do what you need to do. Let's see how this will go:
You'll need to spend an entire turn[at least!] to base the wizard.
The wizard gets a whole turn to himself
You need to deal with the towershield[or whatever strategy the wizard is employing], which is yet another turn of actions.
The wizard gets ANOTHER whole turn to himself.
Now you activate the AMF field and assume you've "won".
The ridiculous situation of a caster even doing this with a tower shield for 20 levels is bad enough, but that a smart melee will play the game to lose is worse.
Given how useful tower shields are for blocking emanations in a pinch, I don't see it as ridiculous. What IS ridiculous is you assuming the wizard is going to just stand there and do _nothing_ for three rounds while you set up the locke. You claim that I'm attempting to make this fighter dumb & not tactically sound, but for some reason you don't seem to be black hat thinking at all-> you're just creating an unwinnable situation, assuming everything will go OK until you get there, and then calling it a day.
And BTW, I've yet to see a Caster build anywhere that totes around a tower shield, so I will admit, you are certainly getting a lot more inventive then the "Celerity + Shapechange ro0lz" crowd.
===Aelryinth
A part of rational and good tabletop optimization is utilizing every tool and technique available to you. Toting around a tower shield has multiple advantages:
1) If someone who you know has cone-effects appears you can ready an action to hide behind it. [instead of wasting valuable buffs]
2) If you don't need it for combat you can drop it right away
3) If you get caught in an AMF field it makes for a nice way to get out without provoking AoO's. [as seen here]
4) It's drawbacks are minimal given the ease of things like sudden still spell, still spell, and all the useful spells which don't require somatic components. [Dimension Door is on that list].
5) If you can get one under 20 lbs you can just keep it in your gloves of storing
.Most of all, the advantage of being a wizard is that you can plan for practically everything. It seems other casters don't have quite the amazing "turn the world on top of it's head" power that wizards do. All of my thoughts so far have been surrounding the idea of being surprised by Locke & stuck in melee with him-> given a battlefield big enough, though, I daresay a well prepared wizard should be able to delay locke almost indefinitely with various wall spells, AMF fields of their own[cast on thier familiar, of course] to block teleporting near him, and summonables. All of this assuming they didn't have some massive army already through the various means wizards have to gather forces. [which I have been nice and not assumed so far-> since I never actually summon huge armies at table top games]
And, of course, if you want me to post a full blown Red Wizard Blasphemy-user[Arcane disciple + leadership & circle casting = very high caster level blasphemy. Oops-> everything dies, no save] I could, but I feel that dipping into prestige classes is only going to further hurt locke's case. [esp since most of my "oh, this kind of caster would whoop him" ideas have been involving prestige classes]
Giving a PC useless treasure they must sell off to get useful gear is not tracking the wealth by level guidelines. Giving a party of fighters 200k worth of mage only gear is not giving each of them 50k towards their wealth limit. They MUST sell it for it to be useful. You've only given them 100k, because that is the value of what they keep.
You haven't even read the DMG or MiC on building and assigning treasure have you? It specifically tells you not to assign stuff that the PCs won't find useful or will want to immediately sell off. All calculations on treasure value are ALWAYS based on full market value, and you can't in any way make money with the ancestral relic unless you gets free stuff.
You have yet to point out anything that supports your view point from the books. All your doing is saying if your DM gives you something in treasure assignment that you don't use and thus sell, you should get more stuff to make up for it. The game doesn't work that way.
Basically you don't have any clue what your talking about and have NO support in the rules for your flawed reasoning.
Most people are arguing that a player who levels up to 20 will only get 380,000 gold to buy good items because they will have to sell back the crap they got from adventuring for 50%. Yes ancestral weapon according to them will make you money. You might even approach 760,000 gold. However, you will never make more than 760,000 gold unless you sold items back for more than 100% of the item value. You are saying that the money guide should mean that everyone gets 760,000 gold worth of good items when leveling up to 20. Using this argument a person would need to acquire 1,520,000 gold worth of items to sell.
That's exactly it except for the 'Most people' at the start. The only person who is advocating that is Aelryinth. So it boils down to every published adventure has been assigning treasure wrong, and every board member has been purchasing goods at a set level wrong, the DMG/MiC methods of placing treasure are wrong, and everyone has been doing this wrong for more than 5 years... or Aelryinth is wrong.
Mcjarvis if tower shields have a facing like you said,
No if's about it
3.5 FAQ
To claim total cover from a tower shield, you must use a
standard action. The tower shield rules don’t say that, but that’s
what they mean. Since you can take only one standard action
each round, you cannot also attack, cast a spell, activate a
magic item (except for some use-activated items), use a special
ability, use total defense, or start or complete a full-round
action during the same round you claim total cover from the
shield. You can, however, take a move action before or after
you claim cover from the shield.
Like other kinds of cover, the shield has to have a location
relative to you on the battlefield. When you use the shield for
cover, choose one edge of your space (not a corner). You have
total cover against any attack’s line of effect that passes
through that side of your space. If an attack’s line of effect goes
through the corner of the side of your space that the shield
blocks, you get cover from the shield (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex
saves) instead of total cover. If an attack’s line of effect passes
through a side of your space that the shield does not block, you
get no cover from the shield at all. To determine where the line
of effect enters your space, draw a line from the attacker’s
center to your center. Or, in the case of a magical effect, from
the effect’s point of origin and your center.
Once you claim cover from the shield, the shield keeps
blocking the side of your space that you chose until the
beginning of your next turn, when you can again decide
whether you’ll use the shield for cover. Once you choose the
side of your space that the shield blocks, you cannot change it
until your next turn.
You continue to threaten the area around you while you use
the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with
the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the
side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack
through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against
your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of
opportunity (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook), the
shield keeps you from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty
wide swath.
To claim total cover from a tower shield, you must use a
standard action. The tower shield rules don’t say that, but that’s
what they mean. Since you can take only one standard action
each round, you cannot also attack, cast a spell, activate a
magic item (except for some use-activated items), use a special
ability, use total defense, or start or complete a full-round
action during the same round you claim total cover from the
shield. You can, however, take a move action before or after
you claim cover from the shield.
Like other kinds of cover, the shield has to have a location
relative to you on the battlefield. When you use the shield for
cover, choose one edge of your space (not a corner). You have
total cover against any attack’s line of effect that passes
through that side of your space. If an attack’s line of effect goes
through the corner of the side of your space that the shield
blocks, you get cover from the shield (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex
saves) instead of total cover. If an attack’s line of effect passes
through a side of your space that the shield does not block, you
get no cover from the shield at all. To determine where the line
of effect enters your space, draw a line from the attacker’s
center to your center. Or, in the case of a magical effect, from
the effect’s point of origin and your center.
Once you claim cover from the shield, the shield keeps
blocking the side of your space that you chose until the
beginning of your next turn, when you can again decide
whether you’ll use the shield for cover. Once you choose the
side of your space that the shield blocks, you cannot change it
until your next turn.
You continue to threaten the area around you while you use
the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with
the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the
side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack
through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against
your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of
opportunity (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook), the
shield keeps you from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty
wide swath.
=This explicitly does not satisfy the wealth by guideline limits.
2) But if you create a level 20 character, you get 760k of gold to buy gear. Thus, creating a character at a level is better then levelling a character up...they'll not only have more stuff, they can pick what they want!
==This is absurd.
3) A 100k gem in hand, a 100k sword in the hand of a mage, and 100k in gold are exactly equal in counting towards wealth limits.
===This is also absurd.
3a) You then specifically cite the rule above that you don't assign stuff the PC's don't want or will immediately sell off.
===And yet somehow, in your eyes, both are true.
4) If somehow, you took a feat that allows you to exceed your wealth limit by judicious management of gold, the DM should remove that wealth from you, and so penalize you for daring to take a feat that helps you in game other then combat.
===As expressed directly by SKR, this makes no sense and is unfair.
5) that the reason Item Creation Feats exist is so that you can 'control' what you get, instead of being able to leverage time and xp to maximize your gold return.
====This is nowhere stated in the rules. Item Creation feats provide a mechanical advantage....the campaign standard is that you can buy anything you want, up to the local wealth limit.
6) that because certain DM's put limits on what can be bought and sold, and don't do so to Item Creation feats (in direct contrivance of the assumed state of the economy in D@D where you can buy and sell anything), the feats exist in game to give a role-playing advantage, not a mechanical advantage.
===See 5 Above. The net effect is being penalized for taking the feat.
7) That the ability to 'sacrifice' useless stuff for full value, instead of selliing it for half, because you have access to a feat, must somehow magically move the status of the item being disposed of from undesired to desired. Thus, there is no benefit to be gained from taking this feat.
===Absurd.
7a) That if this feat is used and the status of the item sacrificed does not magically change, you should be penalized for exceeding the wealth guidelines by the DM (because it will result in a cash advantage). See 4. The net effect is being penalized for taking the feat and using it.
===Illogical and absurd.
================================================
This is my position.
1) Wealth limits approximate the amount of useful gear + coin appropriate to a person at a given level.
2) Wealth that is not useful or appropriate has a Market Sale value of 1/2 normal value, because you have to convert it into gold by selling it to get what you want. Thus, a 100k gem or 100k useless magic item= 50k of gold useful in buying gear, its Market Sale Value.
3) Item creation feats enable you to effectively turn XP into gold. By doing so, you can exceed the wealth guideline limits, because you have the feat, and you burned the XP and time to do so. You can effectively Create two items for the GP cost of buying one. (directly supported by SKR, and the rules).
4) That the Ancestral Relic feat works the same way Item Creation does. By taking treasure share that would be sold for half value, and instead sacrificing them for full value, you are leveraging your feat to 'create wealth' in the form of a better weapon.
5) That penalizing people for managing wealth using means they actually spent feats to access is wrong.
6) that the campaign standard is that you can buy anything, up to the local wealth limits, as per normal rules.
7) That created or levelled up, characters are entitled to the same choices of gear and should have the same limits on wealth.
8 ) That created or levelled up, characters with the appropriate feats should be able to use them appropriately and realistically to yield appropriate results. Doing so otherwise penalizes them for taken the feats.
9) That taking feats to improve wealth and wealth guidelines is no different then taking feats to improve starting wealth, taking feats to gain wealth directly, or taking feats which allow you to buy and sell more effectively (all of which exist in the game).
============================
The Math
A= Desired Gear on hand.
B = Undesired Stuff to be sold.
C= Coin on hand to buy stuff.
G= Guideline limits to character wealth.
x= Cost to acquire an item(s) in coin.
y= value of item after purchase/acquisition.
1) G = A + 1/2 B + C (Definition of wealth guideline)
2) 1/2 B -X = 1/2 B - Y (converts Stuff to coin = Definition of Market Sale Value of Stuff)
3) C-X = C-Y (Cost of an item in Coin = Market Purchase Value)
4) x=y (reflective/Identity. the Cost to Buy a desired Item is the Value of an item towards the Wealth limits)
4a) 1/2 x = y (Rule change, the Cost to Create an Item is 1/2 the Market Purchase Value)
5) G= A + 1/2B + C - X + Y(Substitution, Definition of Wealth Guideline)
5A) G = A +1/2 B + C - 1/2X +Y ( Substitution using Item Creation Feat Rule)
Net Gain On Wealth Guideline = 1/2X (X= money spent on Item Creation instead of buying) [Ignores Xp Cost]
6a) B-x = B - Y(Rule Change, the Cost to upgrade/'buy' a Single Weapon via Ancestral Relic using Stuff is equal to Market Purchase (Sacrifice) Value of Stuff, not Market Sale Value)
7a) G = A + 1/2 (B-Y) + Y + C ( Substitution For wealth Guideline, Ancestral Relic Rule.)
Net Gain on wealth Guideline: 1/2 X, or 1/2 Y.
Edited out reply to ignored party.
===Aelryinth
The melee doesn't notice there is a Tower Shield being lugged around by the mage (I'm blind, blind, I tell you!)
or
He ignores the implications of what the Tower Shield can do and proceeds with a 'normal attack', + unwisely endorses AMF automatically. (Melees never think before attacking! LEEEEE RRRROOOOYYYY JEEENNNKIIINNNSS!)
1) Upon seeing a Tower Shield, the melee should instantly realize the implications of Cover. There is no possibility of a Lock (no AOO) and the AMF won't work if the shield is in the way (Cover against effect)
2) Therefore, to affect the mage, the Tower Shield must be removed from play.
3) Unless the Shield can be removed as a factor, the Lock is virtually impossible. Therefore, the Shield must be disarmed or sundered. This can be done as part of a standard action, or a charge. Against a mage, this will almost always be a successful tactic.
From this point of getting the shield out of the way, you have the option of using the Belt of Battle to:
a) Ready an action if he spellcasts, keyed to quickened spells. Any other spells provoke AoO, so only quickened spells are a threat. He's probably still got no chance of making the Stand Still reflex save, or, if you have knockdown, of resisting the trip.
b) triggering the AMF, since his possible cover is out of the way. If he tries to pick it up, he triggers an AoO, which, if it hits, prevents him from recovering the tower shield (and he wouldn't be able to use it for cover on the same turn,anyway). Note that if you think he has any magical item that can provide a teleport effect, you must activate the AMF, or he can use it to get away (no stopping the item).
C) initiate the Assault. One reason to pop the AMF is so you don't have to ready an action on successive turns and can go right to the Assault.
D) Use PMP on him to get rid of buffs, if you don't think he's got an 8th level spell slot with a quickened Dim Door in it.
I must again re-iterate, the AMF is not a 'first' option, it's a 'last' option. It renders the character extremely vulnerable to people not affected by the AMF. If you can't be sure you can keep the person in there, don't pop it. It is best used against someone with tons of buffs on that you can't all strip away, who is also a spellcaster. You are a melee, and inside an AMF, a spellcaster is meat.
Popping the AMF while the mage still has his shield is the height of idiocy. I was taking umbrage that I would play events that dumbly when replying to your prior post.
I will also note, that in the event you do get a Quarterweight Shield or something and put it into a Glove of Storing, IF the AMF is up and you are in it, you cannot retrieve it.
If sufficient subterfuge is taken so that Lockdown doesn't know you have such a device handy, and does not AMF you, it will indeed allow you to escape his AoO range. Generally speaking, you are probably better off just having a magical item that allows you to dim door or teleport in such circumstances, as he wouldn't be able to block you, either, without the AMF up (and it's much simpler)
Summation: It's a crazy and inventive tactic, but if you have a dumb melee running Lockdown, it could work. Helluva thing to be lugging around all the time for a single 'just in case' encounter, however.
-------------
Note:
[A tower Shield weighs 45 lbs, and so won't go into a Glove of storing (20 lb limit). It would also take a str of 13 on the part of the mage to lug one around, or he's slowed down. IF he's got an 8-12 Str and is human, he's moving at 20 (Medium Enc)
And that's without carrying anything else, like a backpack or spellbook.
So, probably not viable for any mage. But, it's an interesting tactic. It's also got a whopping 50% ASF and -10 AP. Generally speaking, the only thing a mage lugging around this thing is going to do is drop it as soon as any fighting starts so he can actually spellcast. ]
I'll reiterate that the best counter for Lockdown, like any reach fighter, is ranged combat and a competent archer. I've tried to make it very difficult to do this with his enhanced mobility, but two archers seperated widely enough that he can't Reach them both could deal with him. This should come as no suprise to those who've run Reach builds based around Tripping, where the same tactic is used in a different manner.
===Aelryinth
The entire point of the AMF in the first place was to make sure the wizardy-type stays still. If you spend your actions disarming/sundering/whatever, then I get a turn to react-> which means the AMF field strat gets invalidated at this point. [it really only takes 1 turn for a wizard to get away, no?]
edit-> I re-read your post and saw that you consider this to be a primary strategy against buff-bunnies. Given that pretty much every mage in existence has a buff sequence of _some_ sort, doesn't that imply you'd be using it all the time? My initial assumption that it was to keep mages still was merely based on my own knowledge of extreme abilities of the wiz types to move around at a moments notice.
Thanks for assuming _I'm_ an idiot, but what I was pointing out was that your tactics don't give you enough time to do what you need to do. Let's see how this will go:
You'll need to spend an entire turn[at least!] to base the wizard.
The wizard gets a whole turn to himself
You need to deal with the towershield[or whatever strategy the wizard is employing], which is yet another turn of actions.
The wizard gets ANOTHER whole turn to himself.
Now you activate the AMF field and assume you've "won".
Given how useful tower shields are for blocking emanations in a pinch, I don't see it as ridiculous. What IS ridiculous is you assuming the wizard is going to just stand there and do _nothing_ for three rounds while you set up the locke. You claim that I'm attempting to make this fighter dumb & not tactically sound, but for some reason you don't seem to be black hat thinking at all-> you're just creating an unwinnable situation, assuming everything will go OK until you get there, and then calling it a day.
A part of rational and good tabletop optimization is utilizing every tool and technique available to you. Toting around a tower shield has multiple advantages:
1) If someone who you know has cone-effects appears you can ready an action to hide behind it. [instead of wasting valuable buffs]
2) If you don't need it for combat you can drop it right away
3) If you get caught in an AMF field it makes for a nice way to get out without provoking AoO's. [as seen here]
4) It's drawbacks are minimal given the ease of things like sudden still spell, still spell, and all the useful spells which don't require somatic components. [Dimension Door is on that list].
5) If you can get one under 20 lbs you can just keep it in your gloves of storing
Most of all, the advantage of being a wizard is that you can plan for practically everything. It seems other casters don't have quite the amazing "turn the world on top of it's head" power that wizards do. All of my thoughts so far have been surrounding the idea of being surprised by Locke & stuck in melee with him-> given a battlefield big enough, though, I daresay a well prepared wizard should be able to delay locke almost indefinitely with various wall spells, AMF fields of their own[cast on thier familiar, of course] to block teleporting near him, and summonables. All of this assuming they didn't have some massive army already through the various means wizards have to gather forces. [which I have been nice and not assumed so far-> since I never actually summon huge armies at table top games]
And, of course, if you want me to post a full blown Red Wizard Blasphemy-user[Arcane disciple + leadership & circle casting = very high caster level blasphemy. Oops-> everything dies, no save] I could, but I feel that dipping into prestige classes is only going to further hurt locke's case. [esp since most of my "oh, this kind of caster would whoop him" ideas have been involving prestige classes]
If we are talking duel situatins and instant kills when using magic, AMF is likely his sole hope of surviving a fight. However, once in an AMF, the fact remains that the Wizard is most likely MEAT.
The Blaspheming Red Wizard is not a threat inside an AMF, he's a lamb to the slaughter. In such event, things come down to initiative, which is often the way at high levels. Hence, if you really, really want a serious wizard killer, you need to get your Initiative into the stratosphere.
I'm in no way disputing the power of a Wizard to go Nova. But if you think a melee is useless, this build should set you straight and make you realize that they are nasty, potent threats that have the serious ability to mess up you and your friends...and they don't require circles of apprentices, summoned armies of monsters, and a dozen or more precast spells to do that job!
GIVE them all those extra things, and melees are just insanely, stupidly powerful. Now, they are just incredibly dangerous.
===Aelryinth
The Tower Shield strategy subsumes two things:
The melee doesn't notice there is a Tower Shield being lugged around by the mage (I'm blind, blind, I tell you!)
OR
The tower shield the mage is lugging around is the target of a Sequester (cost, one 7th level spell slot every 13-20 days) and so the melee can't see it until the AMF is already up, by which point the mage can ready it, and use his dim-door.
You have continually ignored my primary comments about locke's lack of actions in all of this. I have demonstrated:
1) Because of the presence of a tower shield, locke will have no choice but to address it before attacking the mage.
2) Locke requires 2-3 turns of the wizard doing nothing to achieve the "lock". In such dire situations[for the wizard obviously knows what he's facing, since Locke is granted absolute knowledge of advanced wizardy tactics], the wizard can easily escape or defend himself if necessary.
3) Locke's reliance on 1/day use items like the torc of antimagic are his primary weakness. Any wizard will be able to use smart tactics to evade these successfully if he is well prepared.
I do not understand how you intend to deal with these issues. In a world where who rolls the best initiative can determine a battle between mages, I don't know why you think you can just ignore that it takes locke 2->3 rounds to approach & neutralize the mage while he is perfectly free to do what he desires.
----
RE: Tower shield weight.
Making it darkwood reduces the weight to 22.5 lbs. I'm sure there is something in some splat book somewhere that will reduce the weight by another 5 lbs at least[the sizing enhancement comes to mind] which will easily render it possible to wield in the gloves of storing. I even mentioned in my original post that you'd have to reduce the weight to 20 lbs, why would you argue that this invalidated my tactics? Darkwood//other magical enhancement is a very common way of reducing weight in wooden items.
----
All things considered, here are some casters that I think you have no chance of beating.
Typical libris mortis true-necromancer:
Show
With high cleric casting level and wizard casting level, plus a casting of "general of undeath" [Forgotten Realms book, forget which one], this build can summon thousands of hd of undead. Locke has no way of dealing with hoardes, which is a primary class feature of undead-controllers. Even taking out the primary twinked build, a Cleric20 can animate more than enough hd of undead to distract locke long enough for his ranged spells to take locke down.
With high cleric casting level and wizard casting level, plus a casting of "general of undeath" [Forgotten Realms book, forget which one], this build can summon thousands of hd of undead. Locke has no way of dealing with hoardes, which is a primary class feature of undead-controllers. Even taking out the primary twinked build, a Cleric20 can animate more than enough hd of undead to distract locke long enough for his ranged spells to take locke down.
1) The wealth limits says 760k of gear. But 'really', you should only have 380k of gear, since most of what you get is useless crap that you want to sell.
=This explicitly does not satisfy the wealth by guideline limits.
I said you should have 760,000 gp in gear. I said: here's the money, buy the stuff at cost. Many many times I said that. Go back and check my posts. When I fixed your half-assed list every items I might want who carea about cost or slots... what number did I use as the price of your gear? Oh yes, 760,000 total based on the market value of the items....
The fact that selling stuff doesn't effect the wealth by level guide lines... cripes! I haven't been saying that since the start have ?
The game does not assume that you are selling anything. It also specifically assumes that the DM is NOT playing junk items there. Read the DMG on Treasure (pg. 51) Read the MiC on Equipping a PC (pg.228).
But let's assume you assbackwards and blatantly wrong method is used:
Sell it:
DM gives out 2500 coins and +1 widget. Total market value: 5,400. You, being unable to do anything with the widget sell it for a mere 10 gold. You now only have 2010 gp for wealth, putting you below the average. The next time the DM assigns treasure, he sees that you have less than average (only 2,510 of the 5,400 you should) and so slides in a +1 thingy worth the difference. This means your total wealth is now 5,400 where it should be. You have gone through more items, but your wealth by level is where it should be. Had you not sold the widget, the DM wouldn't have put in the magical thingy as that would have put you very over the wealth guidelines.
Notice that you've now gone through more items since you sold stuff, but that your wealth hasn't increased or decreased?
Burn it:
DM gives out 2500 coins and +1 widget. Total market value: 5,400. You, being unable to do anything with the widget sacrifice it to enhance your Ancestral Relic. You now have 5,400 gp for wealth at the average. The next time the DM assigns treasure, he sees that you the average (5,400) and so doesn't do anything. This means your total wealth is now 5,400 where it should be.
Now your flaw is that you assume that the DM placed, or rolled up, the widget knowing you were going to sell it, and thus it's only worth 800 gp as part of the treasure, and there will be more treasure to make up the difference. Since there is more treasure to make up for the widget being sold (which is knowable unless...psychic DM eh?), you can instead of selling the widget, sacrifice it to the Ancestral Relic and thus cheat the entire system!
It doesn't work that way.
2) But if you create a level 20 character, you get 760k of gold to buy gear. Thus, creating a character at a level is better then levelling a character up...they'll not only have more stuff, they can pick what they want!
==This is absurd.
First, it's explicitly how it works. You start above 1st, you have X gp worth of equipment in whatever form bought at marekt price. This is explicitly spelled out over and over in both the DM and the MiC. Maybe try reading the rules some time?
Second, that you 'think' you get more just wrong. You clearly have never even bothered to pick up the DMG and read how it works, which is in fact exactly like my above examples. Want some help? There's a special side bar in it about this exact thing! DMG on pg 54 handily titled: Behind the Curtain: Treasure Values.
3) A 100k gem in hand, a 100k sword in the hand of a mage, and 100k in gold are exactly equal in counting towards wealth limits.
===This is also absurd.
It's not absurd, and is exactly how it works. And it's spelled out as such multiple times. If they weren't all the same value, how do you determine the value? Any page references there Hawking? I know a gish mage would probably love a 100,000 magical sword. How much less is it worth so I can get it cheaper for my mage?
In fact I don't need to refute any more points after this. Until you can show anything official supporting this, everything else you say is a waste of bandwidth. I dare you to point out anything in ANY WotC book that says differently. Hell, if you can do that I'll make a special post saying that I'm wrong, and that you are the greatest poster who ever visited the boards.
But let's go on.
3a) You then specifically cite the rule above that you don't assign stuff the PC's don't want or will immediately sell off.
===And yet somehow, in your eyes, both are true.
Which has what to do with the above? They're all the same market value and they would all appeal to different people... so... if I put one in as treasure... it's going to get sold?
How do I know the fighter is going to sell the shiny new magical sword and keep his old one so I can change the value of treasure to the right amount? Oh right... I'm psychic. I always know what my players are going to keep and what they are going to sell off.
And then there's always that wonderful table that lists the relative values of items so you know before hand how much it's worth to both assign it to a treasure pile and calculate it based on character wealth. Can you point that out to me, I can't remember the book or page number....
4) If somehow, you took a feat that allows you to exceed your wealth limit by judicious management of gold, the DM should remove that wealth from you, and so penalize you for daring to take a feat that helps you in game other then combat.
===As expressed directly by SKR, this makes no sense and is unfair.
Oh! Another massive failure of logic! If you had mercantile or crafting feats we'd be be fine with you using them (provided you spend the proper xp and gold to do so). Problem is... Ancestral Relic is not a crafting feat! It doesn't increase the wealth you have, it just freely converts it from one form to another.
I guess if you understood how to assign gear past level 1 you'd know this. Might I suggest reading the DMG and MiC on such topics? It's very clearly indicated how to do so in those books.
5) that the reason Item Creation Feats exist is so that you can 'control' what you get, instead of being able to leverage time and xp to maximize your gold return.
====This is nowhere stated in the rules. Item Creation feats provide a mechanical advantage....the campaign standard is that you can buy anything you want, up to the local wealth limit.
Who is talking about item creation feats? I never mentioned them. Is Ancestral Relic an item creation feat? Nope. It's an exalted feat.
6) that because certain DM's put limits on what can be bought and sold, and don't do so to Item Creation feats (in direct contrivance of the assumed state of the economy in D@D where you can buy and sell anything), the feats exist in game to give a role-playing advantage, not a mechanical advantage.
===See 5 Above. The net effect is being penalized for taking the feat.
What do item creation feats have to do with Ancestral Relic? How put limits on what you could buy in this case? I mean I know I said you should only have 760,000 gp of items, but that is what it says to do in both the DMG and MiC. How are we penalizing you for taking the Ancestral Relic feat? Isn't it's point to make a custom item how you want for anyone by converting other stuff on a direct 1 gp to 1gp conversion? It's that what we're saying you can do?
7) That the ability to 'sacrifice' useless stuff for full value, instead of selliing it for half, because you have access to a feat, must somehow magically move the status of the item being disposed of from undesired to desired. Thus, there is no benefit to be gained from taking this feat.
===Absurd.
Absurd that you can't point out anywhere that doesn't use full market value at any time in any book? Yeah, it is. So why are you still trying to claim that "desire" or "use" has anything to do with it?
Point out a single reference to changing the market value of an item based on the usefulness or desire of the item toward either character wealth or treasure placement and I'll admit I'm wrong. heck I might even send you money,
Got one yet?
How about now?
Oh, right, your DM is psychic and knows before hand what's going to be sold, and what's useless to the PCs. I forgot about that.
7a) That if this feat is used and the status of the item sacrificed does not magically change, you should be penalized for exceeding the wealth guidelines by the DM (because it will result in a cash advantage). See 4. The net effect is being penalized for taking the feat and using it.
===Illogical and absurd.
Yup, illogical and absurd since everyone but you has been arguing that Ancestral Relic doesn't change your wealth level at all in any way. As in it doesn't exceed the wealth guide lines because everyone with half a clue knows that you always use full market value for the items.
Let's think about that for a minute: Market Value.
Market Value.
Market Value.
Odd, I don't see any Mage Value, or Fighter Value, or Usefulness Value ever used.
Perhaps this is because market value... never changes? And always counts the same toward treasure generation or character wealth?
... nah. That'd make too much sense.
1) Wealth limits approximate the amount of useful gear + coin appropriate to a person at a given level.
Yup. At 20th level you get 760,000 gp equivelent of 'stuff.'
2) Wealth that is not useful or appropriate has a Market Sale value of 1/2 normal value, because you have to convert it into gold by selling it to get what you want. Thus, a 100k gem or 100k useless magic item= 50k of gold useful in buying gear, its Market Sale Value.
Wait, market sale value? Where did you get that from? I've never seen market sale value in any D&D book. Can you also determine what makes something useless? I don't recall seeing a chart for that... I suppose I could guess at it, might help to be psychic to know what is and isn't going to be wanted or useful to the PCs.
3) Item creation feats enable you to effectively turn XP into gold. By doing so, you can exceed the wealth guideline limits, because you have the feat, and you burned the XP and time to do so. You can effectively Create two items for the GP cost of buying one. (directly supported by SKR, and the rules).
Which we all agree with. In fact I'll let you in on a little secret, the 'cost' of xp is figured into the market value of items. Since you're spending XP, you'll be of a lower level, but have more stuff. Yup!
6) that the campaign standard is that you can buy anything, up to the local wealth limits, as per normal rules.
Sure. We all agree with this.
7) That created or levelled up, characters are entitled to the same choices of gear and should have the same limits on wealth.
Well... not quite. They should have all had the same opportunity at wealth. If Bob the fighter goes out and buys 5 +1 swords "just in case" he's going to get the short end of the stick. He's going to be under-geared even though he'll have the same wealth as the other PCs.
If Marve the mage wants to make Bob the fighter a magic weapon using his own money, he's going to be behind in wealth and Bob is going to be ahead in wealth. (Until more adventuring which will award Marve more treasure and Bob less if the DMG is followed).
8 ) That created or levelled up, characters with the appropriate feats should be able to use them appropriately and realistically to yield appropriate results. Doing so otherwise penalizes them for taken the feats.
We're not saying you can't. But Ancestral Relic, indeed the entire wealth by level system doesn't work anything like what you 'think' it does. I mean, it would be awesome if could predict what the PCs will and will not keep and adjust treasure value based on who has it, but alas, the 5,000 gp of powdered diamond is always worth 5,000 gp no matter who has it.
Is 1$US not worth 1$US because I can't read it? Or because I'm in Hong Kong?
9) That taking feats to improve wealth and wealth guidelines is no different then taking feats to improve starting wealth, taking feats to gain wealth directly, or taking feats which allow you to buy and sell more effectively (all of which exist in the game).
Correct. Ancestral Relic is none of those however, and all of those assume you understand how to calculate the value of treasure, which is always based on it's market value!
I know the concept of everything being based strictly on market value is a strange and confusing one, but it's also the simplest and most efficient one, and the one used without exception by the rules. You'll never find an item's price modified up or down based on 'desire.'
The Math
A= Desired Gear on hand.
B = Undesired Stuff to be sold.
C= Coin on hand to buy stuff.
G= Guideline limits to character wealth.
x= Cost to acquire an item(s) in coin.
y= value of item after purchase/acquisition.
1) G = A + 1/2 B + C (Definition of wealth guideline)
Aw man, didn't even make it all the way through step 1 with the math! Can you please show anything that modifies or defines the value of "Undesired Stuff to be sold" or maybe even that points out what "Undesired Stuff" is? Any citation will do. A table showing the DM how to determine undesired stuff would be really good. A table showing the value of undesired stuff in a treasure horde would be priceless.
Actually, I'll take any reference that changes the value of items or goods based on it's desirability from market price. I'll wait while you point one out.
Seriously, that's all you have to do, provide 1 official reference that supports your 'wealth by level includes selling or modifying item prices' idea.
Quick Question: In the OP, you have an init of +11 listed. I haven't read through everything since then. Have you raised it at all?
If he was using the correct wealth (his OP at this point is still listing almost 150% of a 20th character's expected wealth) it would actually be lower by 1 due to 2 less dex.
A lot his stuff is off because of gear problems actually. A corrected gear list can be found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13265310&postcount=176
You'll have to refigure the numbers/tactics yourself I'm afraid.
Edit: This maybe a rather side comment but I don't expect him to re-list the gear properly and recalculate the bonuses at this point since he hasn't already, and since it weakens the build.
I assert, still, that the Item Creation feats *don't* effectively allow you to exceed the wealth-per-level guidelines because, as you point out, the DM adjusts the loot dropped based on the current wealth of the characters.
In your example of Sell It , vs Burn it, there's one more possibility : Create It.
DM drops 5400gp in coin (important), and say you buy 5400gp worth of Creation Materials with it. You burn XP and time and you make something worth 10800gp -double your wealth limit (and now you're probably behind in XP compared with the rest of the party too!)
When next dropping loot, the DM sees you're ahead of the wealth curve and drops stuff that the rest of the party can use better than you can for a few sessions until you're all caught up with the wealth-limits.
The Creation feat helped you to temporarily exceed the guidelines, but the DM corrected the situation to limit your power. During the correction process, however, you had an item you really wanted, that exceeded the power level of many other items that the DM was dropping for your party.
But consider this situation. Instead of 5400gp of ready cash, the DM dropped a +1 doodad worth 3,600gp and 1800gp in coins.
Now you have a +1 doodad, but you want a +1 widget, (also with the market price 3,600 gp).
a) You can sell the doodad for 1800, provide 1800 of your own cash and buy the widget.
Net loss : the doodad and 1800 gp.
Result : You have : a +1 Widget and no money.
Your Characters Wealth is : 3600gp
b) you can sell the doodad for 1800 and buy materials with the proceeds and create the widget - net loss, the doodad, 0 gp of your own money, and some XP and time.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800 gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
(You could then buy crafting materials worth 1800gp, and make something ELSE worth 3600gp and have a net worth of 7,200gp! And you'll be ahead of your wealth level until the DM does his job and corrects your power level. )
c) you can sacrifice the doodad to make the widget your ancestral weapon - net loss - the doodad and 0 gp.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
You could sacrifice the remaining cash and improve your Ancestral Widget to a value of 5400gp...
The Item Creation feats are better when you have ready-cash for buying the materials, and aren't trying to convert something into something else, and don't care about time or XP. The fact is, though, the bulk of the value of gear that you have is going to be in Magic Items. Throughout your career, it will be the string of vanilla +1 longswords that you want to off-load that will contribute to the majority of your characters income. Unless you make a career of slaughtering dragons for their hoard of coins to buy crafting materials, or playing a rogue who steals exactly the magic items that he wants and nothing else, you're almost always going to be converting unwanted magic item X into desirable magic item Y (either through sales, crafting or sacrifice). This entails a loss in one form or another, and it's still factored into the wealth-guidelines.
The usefulness of Item Creation feats aside - the Wealth Per Level guidelines are simply not a blank check-book for PCs. They're a guideline for DMS to LIMIT Character power and can't simply be overcome through the use of feats and some hand-waving mathematics. I'm not talking "roleplaying" like it's a dirty word, or some fluffy flavor text. I'm talking about the DM's responsibility to balance his game. To Do his Job.
aelryinth continues to ignore this fact, complaining about other characters getting everything they wanted without needing a feat for it. The fact of the matter is - no feat can allow you to "break" the guidelines for Wealth by Level because the guidelines are merely an aid to DMs to control power. If the DM doesn't mind you getting more gear because of a feat, that's his prerogative. If the DM feels that you're getting out of control because of an item creation feat, he can use the guidelines to bring you back to the curve.
Oh - and since you continue to disagree with me aelryinth, I'll continue to point out why you're wrong. Telling me to "drop it" isn't the way to win this argument. I'll drop it when you do.
RE: Entire tower shield debate.
You have continually ignored my primary comments about locke's lack of actions in all of this. I have demonstrated:
1) Because of the presence of a tower shield, locke will have no choice but to address it before attacking the mage.
As I also iterated.
2) Locke requires 2-3 turns of the wizard doing nothing to achieve the "lock". In such dire situations[for the wizard obviously knows what he's facing, since Locke is granted absolute knowledge of advanced wizardy tactics], the wizard can easily escape or defend himself if necessary.
This is not true. He only has to win initiative. The belt of battle provides the 1 SA he needs on top of movement to do the lock, unless he MUST teleport.
3) Locke's reliance on 1/day use items like the torc of antimagic are his primary weakness. Any wizard will be able to use smart tactics to evade these successfully if he is well prepared.
IF we are talking about evading combat as opposed to winning combat, all this goes out the window.
I do not understand how you intend to deal with these issues. In a world where who rolls the best initiative can determine a battle between mages, I don't know why you think you can just ignore that it takes locke 2->3 rounds to approach & neutralize the mage while he is perfectly free to do what he desires.
They are already dealt with, why do I have to repost them?
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RE: Tower shield weight.
Making it darkwood reduces the weight to 22.5 lbs. I'm sure there is something in some splat book somewhere that will reduce the weight by another 5 lbs at least[the sizing enhancement comes to mind] which will easily render it possible to wield in the gloves of storing. I even mentioned in my original post that you'd have to reduce the weight to 20 lbs, why would you argue that this invalidated my tactics? Darkwood//other magical enhancement is a very common way of reducing weight in wooden items.
Actually I remembered you using 25 lbs in your first post, which a darkwood would take care of, so I mentioned the 20 lbs so that wouldn't be a factor. If' I'm in error, so be it. Lot's of posts!
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All things considered, here are some casters that I think you have no chance of beating.
Typical libris mortis true-necromancer:Show
With high cleric casting level and wizard casting level, plus a casting of "general of undeath" [Forgotten Realms book, forget which one], this build can summon thousands of hd of undead. Locke has no way of dealing with hoardes, which is a primary class feature of undead-controllers. Even taking out the primary twinked build, a Cleric20 can animate more than enough hd of undead to distract locke long enough for his ranged spells to take locke down.
Previin - regarding the Item Creation stuff - I believe he was talking to me.
I was.
I assert, still, that the Item Creation feats *don't* effectively allow you to exceed the wealth-per-level guidelines because, as you point out, the DM adjusts the loot dropped based on the current wealth of the characters.
And yet, SKR's essay I posted explicitly stated that you are wrong.
In your example of Sell It , vs Burn it, there's one more possibility : Create It.
DM drops 5400gp in coin (important), and say you buy 5400gp worth of Creation Materials with it. You burn XP and time and you make something worth 10800gp -double your wealth limit (and now you're probably behind in XP compared with the rest of the party too!)
When next dropping loot, the DM sees you're ahead of the wealth curve and drops stuff that the rest of the party can use better than you can for a few sessions until you're all caught up with the wealth-limits.
And so now, because you have the feat, you are being PENALIZED.
On top of this, you aren't getting your fair share of the treasure. Even if the other characters get 'better loot', you are entitled to exactly as much as they get...so what you get is now the rest of the party 'owes' you.
This is how the situation plays out in reality.
The Creation feat helped you to temporarily exceed the guidelines, but the DM corrected the situation to limit your power. During the correction process, however, you had an item you really wanted, that exceeded the power level of many other items that the DM was dropping for your party.
That is not how the rules work. Taking a feat does not force you to get penalized later for taking it. That's like penalizinig a fighter for taking Power Attack because the DM thinks its too good.
But consider this situation. Instead of 5400gp of ready cash, the DM dropped a +1 doodad worth 3,600gp and 1800gp in coins.
Now you have a +1 doodad, but you want a +1 widget, (also with the market price 3,600 gp).
a) You can sell the doodad for 1800, provide 1800 of your own cash and buy the widget.
Net loss : the doodad and 1800 gp.
Result : You have : a +1 Widget and no money.
Your Characters Wealth is : 3600gp
b) you can sell the doodad for 1800 and buy materials with the proceeds and create the widget - net loss, the doodad, 0 gp of your own money, and some XP and time.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800 gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
(You could then buy crafting materials worth 1800gp, and make something ELSE worth 3600gp and have a net worth of 7,200gp! And you'll be ahead of your wealth level until the DM does his job and corrects your power level. )
Which is exactly how the feat is supposed to work, except the DM 'doing his job' is nowhere in the feat or calculation. You are basically inserting a House Rule, here.
c) you can sacrifice the doodad to make the widget your ancestral weapon - net loss - the doodad and 0 gp.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
You could sacrifice the remaining cash and improve your Ancestral Widget to a value of 5400gp...
Also exactly how the feat works.
The Item Creation feats are better when you have ready-cash for buying the materials, and aren't trying to convert something into something else, and don't care about time or XP. The fact is, though, the bulk of the value of gear that you have is going to be in Magic Items. Throughout your career, it will be the string of vanilla +1 longswords that you want to off-load that will contribute to the majority of your characters income. Unless you make a career of slaughtering dragons for their hoard of coins to buy crafting materials, or playing a rogue who steals exactly the magic items that he wants and nothing else, you're almost always going to be converting unwanted magic item X into desirable magic item Y (either through sales, crafting or sacrifice). This entails a loss in one form or another, and it's still factored into the wealth-guidelines.
Exactly so. BUT, the long term effect of the feats is...I should have more gear then the rest of the party, because I took the feats to Make It So. And you are telling me, no, I'm going to take money that you've earned just like they have away, because you have this feat and made use of it.
That is both unfair and absurd.
The usefulness of Item Creation feats aside - the Wealth Per Level guidelines are simply not a blank check-book for PCs. They're a guideline for DMS to LIMIT Character power and can't simply be overcome through the use of feats and some hand-waving mathematics. I'm not talking "roleplaying" like it's a dirty word, or some fluffy flavor text. I'm talking about the DM's responsibility to balance his game. To Do his Job.
As SKR pointed out, this is not a wealth guideline issue. It's a benefit of the character taking a feat. If he wants to enforce tighter gold issues, it has to affect all characters equally. Singling out one character who has taken steps to get an advantage in gold is no different then nerfing a character build to do great in a fight or another one to do great in social situations.
It's unfair, discriminatory, and it makes no sense, razor.
aelryinth continues to ignore this fact, complaining about other characters getting everything they wanted without needing a feat for it. The fact of the matter is - no feat can allow you to "break" the guidelines for Wealth by Level because the guidelines are merely an aid to DMs to control power. If the DM doesn't mind you getting more gear because of a feat, that's his prerogative. If the DM feels that you're getting out of control because of an item creation feat, he can use the guidelines to bring you back to the curve.
I'm not ignoring anything, you are interjecting this 'duty' of the DM to single out and punish someone for taking a feat. I could have used the feat to do something else...I did not. But because I did, you are repressing the use of it and the benefit it gives me, without doing the same to all the others.
I'm sorry, man, but that is the worst kind of DM hosing and favoritism. You are basically saying "Don't take these feats, because they don't provide any long term benefits, and the Creation feats will cost you XP on top of it!"
Again, it's absurd!
Oh - and since you continue to disagree with me aelryinth, I'll continue to point out why you're wrong. Telling me to "drop it" isn't the way to win this argument. I'll drop it when you do!
Hey, I'm sorry, razor, but what you've got is a DM opinion and House Rule here, not mechanics. SKR said it pretty simply...he gave up a feat he could have spent elsewhere so he could do stuff, and it pushes the wealth allowed him up.
That's FINE. There's nothign wrong with it. It's a reward for spending the feat and xp!
And you are saying, NO, that's WRONG, and the DM needs to single out that character and punish them by denying resources all the other characters get.
It just does not, and will not wash with me, razor. Sorry.
==Aelryinth
Quick Question: In the OP, you have an init of +11 listed. I haven't read through everything since then. Have you raised it at all?
Not really. the Belt of battle gives a +2, but I think that's worked in. (+4 feat, +5 dex, +2 belt?).
There are minor items out there that boost Init (I think a +1 Warning Dagger for +5 was mentioned somewhere). Remember, in a Duel, initiative is king. You should throw a lot of stuff out if you're trying to make a dueling build.
For instance, you can afford the stat buffs, because you'll rely on oils for your armor and weapon enhancements. Saves a lot of money. I wanted to be fairly buff free for this build, however, and that tightens up the gold a lot.
Gold issues over time can be a whole sub-issue for the original build. Ugh. Wow, that could take a while.
==Aelryinth
And yet, SKR's essay I posted explicitly stated that you are wrong.
Which doesn't mean squat untill it gets printed officially in an FAQ and/or a rule book.
That is not how the rules work. Taking a feat does not force you to get penalized later for taking it. That's like penalizinig a fighter for taking Power Attack because the DM thinks its too good.
Power attack penalizes you as well in teh feat itself by dropping your to hit rating in exchange for damage. Item creation feats allow you to turn gp into gear that you want to fit your character and play style. No gain without loss. everything has it and if it doesn't it ends up here on the CO board being abused until it gets fixed.
But consider this situation. Instead of 5400gp of ready cash, the DM dropped a +1 doodad worth 3,600gp and 1800gp in coins.
Now you have a +1 doodad, but you want a +1 widget, (also with the market price 3,600 gp).
a) You can sell the doodad for 1800, provide 1800 of your own cash and buy the widget.
Net loss : the doodad and 1800 gp.
Result : You have : a +1 Widget and no money.
Your Characters Wealth is : 3600gp
b) you can sell the doodad for 1800 and buy materials with the proceeds and create the widget - net loss, the doodad, 0 gp of your own money, and some XP and time.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800 gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
(You could then buy crafting materials worth 1800gp, and make something ELSE worth 3600gp and have a net worth of 7,200gp! And you'll be ahead of your wealth level until the DM does his job and corrects your power level. )
Which is exactly how the feat is supposed to work, except the DM 'doing his job' is nowhere in the feat or calculation. You are basically inserting a House Rule, here.
c) you can sacrifice the doodad to make the widget your ancestral weapon - net loss - the doodad and 0 gp.
Result : You have a +1 Widget, and 1800gp.
Your Character's Wealth is 5400 gp.
You could sacrifice the remaining cash and improve your Ancestral Widget to a value of 5400gp...
Also exactly how the feat works.
This example is both flawed and schewed becuase you refuse to admit teh one fact that is at teh crux of this entire debate. Item sell price =/= item value. Not only that but your example is flawed in that any good diplomacy check to get a discount or a higher sell price or feat/orginization affiliation etc will change the outcomes of option A and B in your example. Seriously get this through your head, sell value of gear in no way effects you character wealth when you make him starting off. And if you are adventuring and leveling your DM should be providing you with usefull items per teh DMG and MiC guidlines not crap you want to instantly sell. If this is not the case you should tell your DM that he sucks and to read the frelling rulebooks before holding a session. Does this mean that you will never get an item you wish to sell.. No of course not. Your DM will probably throw in some trash +1 swords here and there but they are filler and do not take up the full market price value in the treasure calculations. Don't believe me then check out the DMG.
I could keep countering your points but I have already delt with your major misconception and it is the core of the disagreement here so I will stop.
Also, look at Bonded Items from DMGII. That might help with money a bit.
Regarding Tower Shield : don't wizards still get a failure chance ? A Mithril Twilight TS is still 30%. With a luck reroll, we're down to 9% but it's not a very good chance for a high-level wizard that wants to be in control.
Lugging it around is easy though : Shrink Item ! Technically you can even speak the command word when it's not your turn, though I doubt a DM would allow it to be perfectly positioned after un-shrinking.
Another thought struck me, though I get the feeling a similar question was asked a few pages back. If a character tries to tumble out of the lock, is stopped by Stand Still and then uses Hustle/a Belt of Battle to get an extra move (tumble) action, can the Lock makes another AoO against him ? He already had an AoO for the same kind of action (moving inside the Thicket of Blades space). I'd say no but... curse the imprecision of the ToB wording !
Though I disagree with aelrynth regarding the WBL issue, I agree with McJarvis that it would be more productive at this point to agree to disagree. Maybe he'd be willing to stick a warning notice on the 1st page ("the total wealth used is controversial" or "the neutrality of this article..." ;) ).
Regarding Tower Shield : don't wizards still get a failure chance ? A Mithril Twilight TS is still 30%. With a luck reroll, we're down to 9% but it's not a very good chance for a high-level wizard that wants to be in control.
Lugging it around is easy though : Shrink Item ! Technically you can even speak the command word when it's not your turn, though I doubt a DM would allow it to be perfectly positioned after un-shrinking.
Another thought struck me, though I get the feeling a similar question was asked a few pages back. If a character tries to tumble out of the lock, is stopped by Stand Still and then uses Hustle/a Belt of Battle to get an extra move (tumble) action, can the Lock makes another AoO against him ? He already had an AoO for the same kind of action (moving inside the Thicket of Blades space). I'd say no but... curse the imprecision of the ToB wording !
Oh, I'd love for them to drop it. The reason,howver, that the thread is still even alive is because I am actively reading and replying to everyone, as time permits.
I make note that if they have a shield they have a Failure chance (base 50%). The Quickened Dimension door is allowed to have no failure chance because its component is stictly verbal (sorry if we didn't point it out). It's also why I said that in any real fight, the mage is going to drop the shield so he can cast. He'd need Still on most every spell he had to get around the penalty of just carrying the shield...which is why you'll never see it.
re: Tumble: This was pointed out earlier. I'm personally of the opinion that Tumble is stopped by Thicket, as it falls under 'any kind of movement'. The immediate rejoinder was Spring Attack, which 'prevents all AoO's', and which I felt would still be effective.
I consider the stance to thwart a DC 15 skill check, or it's simply useless.
As for the Stand Still, once you're hit, you're considered to have used up all your movement for the round. Suddenly finding more via the Belt doesn't change the fact that you're treated as using it all up.
The best way to get out of the Lock if an AMF is not involved is a magical item that allows 'porting...blink, dim door or teleport are all effective. Lockdown has no real way to stop this except an AMF. It's also why he has access to the ability himself!
====Aelryinth
Which doesn't mean squat untill it gets printed officially in an FAQ and/or a rule book.
then I will keep that attitude in mind whenever people ask me for cites. I was replying to a query from another person, who was trolling and flaming and calling my name not on the books. I provided an example, and now someone else is calling it irrelevant.
Sigh.
Power attack penalizes you as well in teh feat itself by dropping your to hit rating in exchange for damage. Item creation feats allow you to turn gp into gear that you want to fit your character and play style. No gain without loss. everything has it and if it doesn't it ends up here on the CO board being abused until it gets fixed.
Cash allows you to get gear that you want to fit your character and play style. Since by your definition, Item Creation does nothing special, it is an irrelvant feat.
This example is both flawed and schewed becuase you refuse to admit teh one fact that is at teh crux of this entire debate. Item sell price =/= item value.
Uh, what? That's my entire BASIS! It's Previn who keeps saying that sell price = value. You sell stuff at 1/2 value. It's a core part fo the game!
Not only that but your example is flawed in that any good diplomacy check to get a discount or a higher sell price or feat/orginization affiliation etc will change the outcomes of option A and B in your example.
IF you allow diplomacy to affect what you give and get...sure. We've now stepped past mechanics to Role playing rewards, so this is not an issue.
Seriously get this through your head, sell value of gear in no way effects you character wealth when you make him starting off.
okay...and I disputed that bit of obviousness where?
And if you are adventuring and leveling your DM should be providing you with usefull items per teh DMG and MiC guidlines not crap you want to instantly sell.
Okay, if my DM is always going to be supplying me with precisely what I want at any given time, he's a mind reader.
If this is not the case you should tell your DM that he sucks and to read the frelling rulebooks before holding a session.
Or maybe I like my DM and just sell loot to deny him the headache you are suggesting.
Does this mean that you will never get an item you wish to sell.. No of course not. Your DM will probably throw in some trash +1 swords here and there but they are filler and do not take up the full market price value in the treasure calculations. Don't believe me then check out the DMG.
Of course not, never said they did. But they are part of the formula as you level.
I could keep countering your points but I have already delt with your major misconception and it is the core of the disagreement here so I will stop.
Right. Misconception. Sure.
==Aelryinth
I have an idea regarding the whole money issue. Simply make a list of the minimal items that you need for the build to work, something that is under the wealth per level guidelines. Then have a list of a bunch of other items that help and people could chose from. A lot of the items you have are gravy, and could be scaled back if needed.
Also, look at Bonded Items from DMGII. That might help with money a bit.
DMG 2 part of the SRD? If not, I don't have it handy.
As for the gold issue...ugh. Giving me a headache just considering how to post it.
===Aelryinth
I was especially wondering about that build you presented that hit the high AC's, and if you calculated the value without magic (AMF or stripped by PMP).
===Aelryinth
DMG 2 part of the SRD? If not, I don't have it handy.
As for the gold issue...ugh. Giving me a headache just considering how to post it.
===Aelryinth
I'll give the basics of Bonded Items, but don't take my word on it because I have my book out on loan right now. Simply put it allows anyone to craft magic items, but the item only works for them. There are also some abilities like if you beat one type of creature with the weapon by yourself you get a bonus against that type of creature.
I'm pretty sure that it is a variant though, so it won't always be allowed. I'd allow it though, because it gives a boost to non-casting classes and makes them less dependent on casters for items.
This I agree with to a point - Bob should pay for the sword. Marve will give up XP to provide a benefit to the party. But as they adventure and evenly divide spoils, Bob will still be ahead of the curve because Marve effectively 'gave him' wealth. If he gives Marve the money for the sword, then Marve can take the money and make his own magic items, and also get ahead of the curve.
What you've just proposed is that Marve is now penalizing Bob for daring to accept a magic sword from him, because now Bob is going to get less then his fair share of loot. Because, you know, the DM says so, not because the Players decided it.
I pointed out that the wealth will be equalized despite this in both directions, as written in the rules that you apparently cannot be bothered to follow or learn.
DMG, pg 53. It's spelled out in black and white.
Your job is to compare the wealth gained from encounters in your adventure with the expected wealth gain shown on the table above. If your adventure has more treasure, reduce it. If your adventure has less treasure, plant enough treasure not related to the encounters to match the value.
Your job is also to make sure that the wealth gets evenly distributed.
DMs should change the value of treasure to keep wealth at a specific amount based on level... and should also make sure it gets distributed evenly... directly from the DMG.
One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with experience points earned in those encounters.
"Based on average treasures found in average encounters." No mention if you're going to sell them, or how useful they are, or how desired, or anything else.
Basically you're wrong on every level.
yeah, that'll go over in the party, the DM deciding who gets what based on value. Why don't you just take their sheets and play them so you don't have any 'prediction problems' at all?
Again you only showing your own ignorance and inability to read. Learn the rules, I'm getting tired of beating you over the head with them and getting stupid replies that have no basis in the rules, or anything else back. Calling a bunch of things absurd isn't a rebuttal, it's the refuge of a 6 year old who can't win an argument.
You just have no concept of how to handle placing treasure, and you're apparently incapable of reading the rules in the DMG. Which specifically tell you to add or remove treasure to keep PC wealth in line with expected wealth levels. And to make sure it gets split up evenly. It doesn't matter what you do, if you're following the rules you character wealth won't be significantly different from what the DMG says you should have.
You don't have to 'predict'! you only have to record what they DO. It's not up to you to PREDICT. Balancing loot handouts is a reaction to what they've done, and attempt to see what they'll do...but it's also about constant corrections and compensation! It's not easy, and I never said it would be!
You seem to not know what predict means. Some how I am not surprised by this.
In getting to level 20, a party member may have gotten as his loot shares A value of equipment he kept, C value of coin (most of which he spent on getting upgrades), and probably a crapload of B he had to sell off on the way.
760k at level 20 is taking a snapshot and saying, this character should have 760k of level appropriate gear (A), or the coin to go get it (C). That's the default ruling. It doesn't mention anything about HOW they got to 760k. It simply says that this is the target. If they have anything else, they have to convert it first to coin to go get equipment. They STILL have to end up at 760K...that's the guideline.
No it doesn't. Please show anything anywhere that assumes at 20th level character already has items. Want me to qoute the MiC on Equiping PCs sow e can see what I joke this statement is too?
So, your goal as DM is not to figure out C and B...it's to figure out what A+C is.
Exactly. B never comes into play.
Player: How much stuff do I have at 20th level?
DM: You have 760,000 gp worth of stuff. Pick until you have stuff equal to or less than that amount. You'll get anything you don't spend in actual gp.
Player: I want to sacrifice some stuff to Ancestral Relic rather than selling it so I can get a better weapon without paying as much for it!
DM: You don't have anything because you haven't picked anything yet. After you pick stuff you can do that.
Player: But if I had to sell stuff I couldn't sell if for as much, so you should give me more to make up for it!
DM: Why? I'm not forcing you to sell stuff. *thumbs through the DMG and MiC* There's no rules saying anything like that.
Player: But I would have gotten stuff as I adventured and leveled up that I could have scarified rather than sold!
DM: Then I'd have followed the rules in the DMG and keep your wealth at the appropriate level. So pick 760,000 gp of stuff.
Player so I have 760,00 gp of gems I could sell, thus they must be worth 1,520,000 if I sacrifice it all!
DM: No, you have nothing until you've picked stuff. You don't have anything right now. You technically don't even have gold yet.
Player: But I should if I'm 20th level!
DM: Says who?
Player: That's not fair, you don't understand how it should work!
Dm: It's listed right here in the DMG *points in the book* See?
Player: It's absurd that I can't sell stuff! He's some math showing how much I should have!
DM: Um, player? There's nothing here that's related to the game at all... maybe you should just read the rules? *points in the book*
Player: Stop telling me what to do! You don't know what you're talking about.
Dm: ....
Other players: ....
It doesn't matter what you do in game. A DM who is doing his job and following the rules will make sure your final wealth is equivalent for a character of you level.
Again, all you're proving is you don't know how to assign treasure, why character wealth by level exists nor how to use it, why selling or making your own items has no effect on your final wealth and that your too arrogant to read the rules when we hand them to you on a silver platter.
But SKR's article notwithstanding, the DMs who do this aren't actually following the guidelines - they're using their discretion to allow the PC to exceed them, despite the advice printed in the DMG.
You keep referring to real play as if it always works your way.
In "real play", the DM has a job to do - and that's to make sure the PCs don't get out of control.
Never once have you countered my argument that these are guidelines for the DM and as such are completely outside the power of the player to break simply by selecting a feat.
Until you can point to some statement somewhere in an official book that suggests a feat can modify the DMs job in this manner, you've got nothing.
Furthermore, the Item Creation feats work significantly differently than the Ancient Weapon feat, and so, perhaps I should stop muddying the waters with discussion of their usefulness, since they're completely irrelevant to your build. Ancestral Weapon doesn't allow you to take X gp of gold, add some xp and turn it into an item worth 2X gp. It allows you to take X gp of items or whatever and turn them into an X gp upgrade to your ancestral weapon.
But we've explained it as simply as we can, and I'm sure you're going to continue to make your unsubstantiated assertions, so I'm going to leave it at that.
And what you are doing is not distributing it evenly. You just said you'd 'give more stuff to marve and less to Bob.' YOU are. Ignoring the players evenly dividing their own spoils.
Selective reading problem? Awarding more to Marve and less to Bob keeps them on the wealth per level chart at the correct level, as the DMG tells you to do. Distributing it evenly is covered by this. 'Evenly' being keeping everyone on the wealth per level chart.
Oddly enough, if you had read the selected text you would have understood this.
This is, of course, irrelevant and untargeted.
Quite the opposite. How much treasure is in the horde? Based on treasure guide, which uses full market price. How much wealth should a player have? However much they have collected as treasure. Ergo, the player wealth is based on full market price.
And you can't seem to grasp the concept that feats allow you to EXCEED wealth levels.
They don't. Again, please read the DMG, pg 54. You will see that the DM's job is to adjust the wealth levels to coincide with the wealth per level table. This means that you can make stuff, but that a DM should adjust what you then get adventuring to account for this. See the now infamous pg. 54.
About the only time that the item creation feats can allow you "exceed" wealth is with a pre-made character who is willing to spend experience or is given extra experience so cover it. At all other times, the Dm should be following the rules and keeping your wealth on level.
Snark.
It's not my fault you said that a DM doesn't have to predict what the players will do and in the same breath say that the DM should be able to predict what the players do. Which is it? Because it can't be both.
Since it's irrelevant and a tangent, why?
Not a tangent. A core point. Which have yet to show in any form.
except in the course of normal play.
Again, please read the DMG pg. 54. It doesn't come into play since it is specifically the DM's job to keep your wealth at a specific amount based on your level, by assigning more or less treasure based on what you currently have. If nothing else this discussion has made me realize how well the wealth guidelines are in self correcting sudden influxes or drops in PC wealth.
DM: You don't have anything because you haven't picked anything yet. After you pick stuff you can do that.
Here we go. Completely ignoring 'real play'. Since I'm making up a character to reflect 'real play', the entire rest of this conversation is basically moot.
Quite the opposite. I give a real play answer that's based, oddly enough, on the DMG rules, pg. 54, I would suggest you read it some time. You cannot gain more wealth than the DMG suggests as wealth per level unless your DM specifically isn't doing his job, or allows it. Neither of those are RAW. Again, actually reading the text and basing your argument on that would do a lot more than just saying "nuh-uh" over and over.
You're also arguing for "real play" when the character in question, created at level 20, has no real play. Quit foolish if you ask me.
Player: But I would have gotten stuff as I adventured and leveled up that I could have scarified rather than sold!
DM: Then I'd have followed the rules in the DMG and keep your wealth at the appropriate level. So pick 760,000 gp of stuff.
You know, the ones in the DMG on pg. 54? That you refuse to read?
Player: So what you are saying is that if I have Ancestral relic, it does absolutely nothing for me?
DM: It doesn't do much, if anything when you're making a pre-made character at 20th level, so correct.
Player: Then why does the feat exist?
DM: It allows you to get things you couldn't normally get based on the wealth limits of population centers in the DMG. It also doesn't slow down your level progression and doesn't require you to be caster to enhance the item. Since we're choosing items as per the DMG and MiC rules for a chacrter already at 20, yeah it doesn't do much. That doesn't mean it's a worthless feat. It's just not nearly as useful in this particular case. if were starting at a lower level, say 10 it would still be a good feat to pick up for advancing your item without the need of anyone else or xp loss as you adventured.
Player: I'd show you the math, but it looks like you wouldn't understand it. So, there's no benefit to having the feat in your campaign. I'll live with it. Okay, I'll take Item Creation Create Arms and armor. How much XP are we over 20?
DM: *sighs* Well I saw your math, and you made up a bunch of numbers and formulas that aren't listed anywhere in the rules, and used things that aren't ever covered by the rules. They also don't make any sense given how a DM is supposed to deal with character wealth. *points at page 54 in the DMG*.
Player: I'm going to use my Item creation feat to turn that into gold.
DM: We'll we didn't start with any more experience than 20th level, so you'll have to lose a level for any crafting experience. If you're willing to do that, you can make what you want as long as you have the materials and xp to do so. While this will give you a short term boost, due to how I'm supposed to control player wealth, this means you'll still end up with the wealth by the next level as everyone else.
Note I've already explicitly stated this, you either can't read or are picking fights for no reason that no disagrees on. basciaclly you refuse to read the rules and follow them. Somehow this seems to be the normal for you.
And obviously not making any exceptions for feats which allow them to exceed the guidelines.
DMG pg. 54. Since the DM is constantly adjusting wealth to keep players on the correct amount, there are no feats that will allow them to exceed wealth. Perhaps unfair in some regards, but those are the rules. Oddly you are on of the few poeple who seems to have a serious problem with this, or is unable to grasp it. I don't think we've ever had to explain such a simple concept so many times.
And taking feats allow you to exceed the wealth guidelines, and you are ignoring that reality on a platinum platter with your half-reference to rules that are being taken completely out of context, as your rather inane parody amply demonstrated.
===Aelryinth
You're the one who is completely out of line. You obviously still haven't read the rules.
You're also being an ass by continuously bringing in item creation feats when I have never once said no to nor had any real discussion on them. In fact every time you've mentioned them, I've said 'sure, use them if you want.' I suggest you grow up read the rules, and then make an argument based on those rules rather than the 'unfairness' and what you perceive as absurd.
Look, I'm willing to admit that many DMs will allow the Item Creation feats to allow the crafter to exceed wealth guidelines. I'm willing to admit that this might even be a good thing, in some games.
But SKR's article notwithstanding, the DMs who do this aren't actually following the guidelines - they're using their discretion to allow the PC to exceed them, despite the advice printed in the DMG.
This is directly against SKR's assertion that taking the feat IS a direct message to the DM that the person is going to have more loot, and the feat is why, and no, this is not imbalanced.
You keep referring to real play as if it always works your way.
In "real play", the DM has a job to do - and that's to make sure the PCs don't get out of control.
'Out of control' is all in the DM's mind. There's nothing that says it is imbalanced except you.
Never once have you countered my argument that these are guidelines for the DM and as such are completely outside the power of the player to break simply by selecting a feat.
No, the feats are telling the DM that part of what they do is exceed the wealth guidelines as part of their effect. If the DM does not like this, then he should remove the feats from the game so as to completely level the playing field.
Until you can point to some statement somewhere in an official book that suggests a feat can modify the DMs job in this manner, you've got nothing.
The feats modify the effect of the character on the play world. Is there something in an official book somewhere that says you must discriminate against people who take these feats?
Furthermore, the Item Creation feats work significantly differently than the Ancient Weapon feat, and so, perhaps I should stop muddying the waters with discussion of their usefulness, since they're completely irrelevant to your build. Ancestral Weapon doesn't allow you to take X gp of gold, add some xp and turn it into an item worth 2X gp. It allows you to take X gp of items or whatever and turn them into an X gp upgrade to your ancestral weapon.
Precisely. However, it is specifically limited to the one weapon, with precise limits, Good People only, and you can't give it away. Unlike the ICFeats, you need more money to get the ball rolling and to make use of the feat...ICF lets you get the ball rolling with less money.
But we've explained it as simply as we can, and I'm sure you're going to continue to make your unsubstantiated assertions, so I'm going to leave it at that.
And please do.
===Aelryinth
]This is directly against SKR's assertion that taking the feat IS a direct message to the DM that the person is going to have more loot, and the feat is why, and no, this is not imbalanced.
A direct message to the DM that the character will be making some of their wealth. Not that they should get more loot.
'Out of control' is all in the DM's mind. There's nothing that says it is imbalanced except you.
Actually the wealth per level guidelines say just that.
No, the feats are telling the DM that part of what they do is exceed the wealth guidelines as part of their effect. If the DM does not like this, then he should remove the feats from the game so as to completely level the playing field.
I don't see 'makes more money' in the feat. And why bother to "remove the feats from the game so as to completely level the playing field," when if they follow the rules in distributing wealth they already level the playing field?
The feats modify the effect of the character on the play world. Is there something in an official book somewhere that says you must discriminate against people who take these feats?
We're not discriminating. We're following the rules on handing out treasure. Might I suggest you read them and get over your persecution issues?
Precisely. However, it is specifically limited to the one weapon, with precise limits, Good People only, and you can't give it away. Unlike the ICFeats, you need more money to get the ball rolling and to make use of the feat...ICF lets you get the ball rolling with less money.
Ancestral relic is not limited to a weapon, it's limited to one item. You can make expendable items with it (which is a big hint how you should try to abuse it). You can give it away, it just won't do much when you do. Yes it requires more money. It also requires less restrictions than the crafting feats on what it can be used for, it doesn't slow down your leveling due to xp expenditure, and doesn't require you to be a spell caster or know specific spells. Basically it's got plenty of uses and reasons to take it except for breaking the wealth cap.
race earth dwarf
lvl 1-2 monk (after level 4 switch alignments to nonlawful and become exmonk but keep abilities
lvl 3-4 barbarian
lvl 5-7 ranger
lvl 8 fist of the forest
lvl 9-10 deepwarden
lvl 11-18 primevil
lvl 19-20 warshaper
con = 57
20 dwarf
4 rage
13 primevil dire lion with 8 levels
4 warshaper
5 leveling up
6 enhancement
5 inherent book
AC = 110 Touch AC 97
10
47 con bonus
8 natural armor from dire lion
8 bracers
5 amulet of natural armor
5 ring of protection
19 improved combat expertise
8 wis bonus (will need plus 6 enhancement item and +5 wis inherent tome)
In AMF con 36
AC = 58 touch AC 58
10
24 con bonus
19 improved combat expertise
5 wis bonus
Feats needed
improved unarmed strike (gotten through monk)
endurance(gotten through ranger)
1st great fortitude
3rd power attack
6th self sufficient
9th toughness
12th combat expertise
15th improved combat expertise
18th probably I'd take steadfast determination for great synergy for will saves.
As you can see it has horrible feat selection and although it has great AC won't do huge damage, has no flexibility nor battle control. Most DMs will ignore the character with the high AC and send all mobs after other targets. It also has serious MAD. It needs a starting int of 16 to maintain combat expertise because it loses three int while progressing in primevil class. It also started with an 18 in CON and a 12 in WIS.
There are many ways to cheese up the fist of the forest and deepwarden levels to maximize AC. However, the builds that had AC in the 200s all used cha to AC abilities rather than con to AC abilities since there are three different Cha to AC abilities that stack. I can't remember the name of the thread that had the 200 AC but it was a magic user if I remember correctly.
Aelryinth, sorry for not answering your question about the build with high ac. I didn't want to hijack your thread by posting an example of a high AC build. But since you specifically asked for it here goes. Although I mentioned a master of many forms to use polymorph cheese at first, here is an example uses a different type of polymorph cheese which is the primevil. It is similar to bear warrior, but gives more con bonus at the appropriate level. However, there are many different builds that have high AC when you use fist of the forest and deepwarden levels. I listed both its normal AC and its AC in a AMF.
race earth dwarf
lvl 1-2 monk (after level 4 switch alignments to nonlawful and become exmonk but keep abilities
lvl 3-4 barbarian
lvl 5-7 ranger
lvl 8 fist of the forest
lvl 9-10 deepwarden
lvl 11-18 primevil
lvl 19-20 warshaper
con = 57
20 dwarf
4 rage
13 primevil dire lion with 8 levels
4 warshaper
5 leveling up
6 enhancement
5 inherent book
AC = 110 Touch AC 97
10
47 con bonus
8 natural armor from dire lion
8 bracers
5 amulet of natural armor
5 ring of protection
19 improved combat expertise
8 wis bonus (will need plus 6 enhancement item and +5 wis inherent tome)
In AMF con 36
AC = 58 touch AC 58
10
24 con bonus
19 improved combat expertise
5 wis bonus
Feats needed
improved unarmed strike (gotten through monk)
endurance(gotten through ranger)
1st great fortitude
3rd power attack
6th self sufficient
9th toughness
12th combat expertise
15th improved combat expertise
18th probably I'd take steadfast determination for great synergy for will saves.
As you can see it has horrible feat selection and although it has great AC won't do huge damage, has no flexibility nor battle control. Most DMs will ignore the character with the high AC and send all mobs after other targets. It also has serious MAD. It needs a starting int of 16 to maintain combat expertise because it loses three int while progressing in primevil class. It also started with an 18 in CON and a 12 in WIS.
There are many ways to cheese up the fist of the forest and deepwarden levels to maximize AC. However, the builds that had AC in the 200s all used cha to AC abilities rather than con to AC abilities since there are three different Cha to AC abilities that stack. I can't remember the name of the thread that had the 200 AC but it was a magic user if I remember correctly.
With a Con of 57 your Con bonus is +23. I think that means your Con bonus to AC is only +23? Or are you subbing in Con twice?
You can sub in Con 3 times if you use Forsaker (Nat AC bonus), but then you couldn't do all the Su Shapechanging stuff. At least, not without your DM making you implode from pure cheese.
I don't think you get to keep your Con bonus to AC when faced with Touch Attacks., but I could be mistaken (ah, well, I'll ignore it.)
Are any of the Primeval abilities, esp changing shape, SU? If so, you lose them in an AMF (I think you took that into account).
Also note, your Bracers only work against Incorporeal Touch Attacks, not normal (ranged) ones.
Since you include Rage to temporarily up your AC, you should also have it posted without it, esp since you can only use it 1/day (although it lasts 26 rds!, heh).
So, retaining your full combat offensive capability, you'd have a base AC of 87, a Touch AC of 66 (or less, if Con bonus doesn't apply), and a flat footed AC of 45 (with no expertise option). Them's still pretty nice numbers, but a rogue coming in and sneak attacking you if you (or he) are in an AMF and he's coming out of invis, you've an AC of 16. Even if you are in normal, someone blinking around you (?) or employing a blurstrike weapon to render you flat footed against an attack takes your 91 Raging AC down a whopping 46 pts to 45 ...excellent, but not unmanageable (a 2 for Lockdown, who does have a Blinking ring, although not for this reason). Also remember, you are -2 AC while in a Rage, unless I'm missing a bonus somewhere...which effectively cuts your AC bonus in half while Raging (so, it would be 89)
Still, you haven't included lots of optional magic items. I'll note that you can lose the monk levels and just take a monk's belt, and actually pick up +1 AC doing it! (unless you need the IUS for Fist, in which case ignore me).
You can't use Imp Combat Expertise, because that just nerfs your dmg output.
You may as well take on Full Defense for another +6 if you are going this route.So, in an AMF, you've got an AC of maybe 40. And by your own words, trying to start this build with the standard array would be well nigh impossible.
Lockdown in an AMF has a TH bonus of +32, with +4 from Deft Opportunist for a +36. That'll hit you on a 4+, so I'm generally not worried. With flanking, etc and teamwork, he'd have auto hits (or if he'd started as a half-orc with max str, hah!)
Yeah, I've seen those mage builds. Same weakness as most mage builds...stick em in an AMF, and suddenly things start dropping in the toilet.
Thanks for the post! One of the great challenges of making builds like this is their viability. You might want to start with an Elite Array, like I did, rather then assume a max stat, and try to make it work. It feels a lot more 'real' to people if you do, and if it starts looking effective, becomes a possible character build instead of a nice theory.
===Aelryinth
With a Con of 57 your Con bonus is +23. I think that means your Con bonus to AC is only +23? Or are you subbing in Con twice?
I don't think you get to keep your Con bonus to AC when faced with Touch Attacks., but I could be mistaken.
As usual reading the books would help rather than jumping to how you think it's going to work. The AC bonus from Con from Fist of the Forest applies against touch attacks, and while flat-footed. The Con bonus from Deepwarder replaces dex, and so works exactly like it in what it protects against and when.
I.e. he gets his Con mod to his AC twice and it works against touch attacks.
Are any of the Primeval abilities, esp changing shape, SU? If so, you lose them in an AMF.
Even in AMF he still hits an AC of:
Con 34 (+12)
Wis 22 (+6)
10 Base + 6 wisdom +12 con +12 con +19 Improved Combat Expertise -2 rage = 53 total. Touch:53 Flatfooted:34
So, in an AMF, you've got an AC of maybe 40. And by your own words, trying to start this build with the standard array would be well night impossible.
Nope. He has an effective AC of 53. It could be more, but he's not focusing on functioning in an antimagic field.
Lockdown in an AMF has a TH bonus of +32, with +4 from Deft Opportunist for a +36. That'll hit you on a 4+, so I'm generally not worried. With flanking, etc and teamwork, he'd have auto hits.
Except your assuming a much lower AC than what it actually is. In reality you only hit on a 18, 19 or 20.
Yeah, I've seen those mage builds. Same weakness as most mage builds...stick em in an AMF, and suddenly things start dropping in the toilet.
Thanks for the post!
===Aelryinth
I'm guessing you haven't read those threads from this response.
Since your AC is so high, this would have next to no effect on your defenses, while giving your offenses a huge boost. It'd also remove some of your MAD. Since you have Barb/1, you can take Pounce as a sub level, so you get full attacks on a charge more often.
So, if you've a working combo here, and can afford the feats, you could actually get some brutal charge action going.
That IS a lot of PrC's tho, and I can't actually remember seeing too many Primeval builds around (Savage Species? Not sure of the source of it), but I guess it just illustrates the power of dipping a class.
==Aelryinth
====
As for making a stronger buld with a pure crusader or warblade, go ahead and post it.
So, while I appreciate the sentiment for TO9S, unless you can post a truly powerful 20 level build that will shame this one, don't make the blanket statement. I agree that if you want to optimize, a couple of levels into Crusader make the build more efficient....but that's all.
There's been some pretty good optimizers look this over, and while they agree a dip of a couple levels here and there after 16 could be useful, and definitely they'd probably swap around the spec tree I included, they aren't proclaiming this is underpowered.
Overwhelming Attack is very hard to beat with this kind of build.
===aelryinth
Right, a better TO9S build. I think a much better build is possible if we give up on using Overpowering Attack. Instead of making a DC70ish Reflex save, they have to make a DC40ish Reflex save. In return, we get a ton more versatility and damage output. As an added bonus, I claim this beats the "Lockdown" build even after losing initiative. In addition, I claim that this (like Lockdown) is a decent 1-20 build, not just optimized for level 20.
The Lockdown Artist
Human
Warblade 16, Fighter 2, Crusader 2
Levels and Feats:
Warblade 1: EWP: Spiked Chain, Standstill
Warblade 2:
Warblade 3: Power Attack
Warblade 4:
Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper
Fighter 2: Close Quarters Fighting
Warblade 6:
Crusader 1: Deft Opportunist
Crusader 2:
Warblade 7:
Warblade 8: Mage Slayer
Warblade 9: Blind Fight (or Iron Will)
Warblade 10:
Warblade 11: Pierce Magical Protection (or Pierce Magical Concealment)
Warblade 12:
Warblade 13: Quick Draw
Warblade 14: Occult Opportunist (or Robilar's Gambit or Defensive Sweep)
Warblade 15:
Warblade 16:
Warblade 1: EWP: Spiked Chain, Standstill
Warblade 2:
Warblade 3: Power Attack
Warblade 4:
Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper
Fighter 2: Close Quarters Fighting
Warblade 6:
Crusader 1: Deft Opportunist
Crusader 2:
Warblade 7:
Warblade 8: Mage Slayer
Warblade 9: Blind Fight (or Iron Will)
Warblade 10:
Warblade 11: Pierce Magical Protection (or Pierce Magical Concealment)
Warblade 12:
Warblade 13: Quick Draw
Warblade 14: Occult Opportunist (or Robilar's Gambit or Defensive Sweep)
Warblade 15:
Warblade 16:
Occult Opportunist is a feat I had no idea existed, and it's not in a splatbook, coming out of Dragon. Note that while it does shut down spellcasting, it still doesn't shut down using magical items to get away (a big weakness of locking down). I'd suggest making it 'elective' and finding a book feat to sub in...but it IS very nice. Pierce Magical concealment would be good. I can't hardly believe it's not in the Mage Slayer chain, but those are some odious skill rank reqs.If it wasn't in Dragon, I'd immediately swipe it for Lockdown. Also note that with Concentration skill check items out there, it's entirely likely a mage can pass a normal hit with a maxed Concentration ranks...if they choose to put points into it.
I'm confirming that you are using the money saved by downgrading the chain hugely to +1 Valorous and the Con bonus to buy all those multiple manuver thingies at 15k a pop (I think they'd be all +50% as secondary, too).
ONe note: From the Crusader in the Gauntlet, I think Covering Strike is Devoted Spirit? You can't use warblade 'swaps' on manuvers acquired from Crusader. You can also only use it once per encounter. That strike is a very powerful foil for Robilar's builds. (EDit: Covering Strike is White Raven. Oops)
I'm not sure the Charge manuver would work because of the Steadfast boots, which let you always have a Readied Action set against a charge. So, you might be impaling yourself onto a Glaive for double dmg, only to watch him 5' (or 10') step back out of your range with Sidestep. Dem boots is nasty. You'd probably be better off making a normal move and trying to get off a manuver if you go first.
It's hard to see what stats are from class levels and what ones are from General Feats. Can you split them out?
How's his starting stats and does it make an impact on what feats and when?
Suggested skill ranks? Remember to allocate points for your feats. If you want to stick with Occult Opportunist, that's all cross-class for this build. Ouch!
Also, I used Human as a Generic feature of my build. It seems pretty key for yours, since one of the feats is EWP. Can you revise the build for any race to take?
You do have a blizzard of options here, but I will note that one major weakness of the Warblade is he NEEDS his swift actions to recover his strikes, to change stances, to initiate some boosts, etc. Lockdown stands ready pretty much as is. I did note he needs some method of detecting the invisible, and he's not truly optimized for taking out melee...but he can really own spellcasters (which, btw, is the main use of the AMF, not against melee toons...I still can't believe people are saying he springs the AMF all the time as his 'standard tactic'.)
I don't see a whole lot of build flexibility, except maybe some manuver choices. Lockdown has 5 or 6 feats he can swap around yet. Covering Strike to really annoy a Robilar's build would be funny as heck...it's also perfect for a bonus feat or item, since you can only use it 1/encounter anyways!
I was hoping to see a pure Warblade build, but this is nice. I'm not disputing the Warblade has a better base chassis with his skill points and especially uncanny dodge and the like, which should be Fighter features...but I delibrately tried to include a lot of wiggle room for Lockdown by including the weapon spec feats, and designing them to be removed.
Now, if only he had a swap out feat mechanic like Mr. Artist does manuver. Then I could drop the spec tree for Knockdown and Knockback and really make him annoying.
You know, I like Covering Strike so much I think I'll add it to the build!
===Aelryinth
I'm not sure the Charge manuver would work because of the Steadfast boots, which let you always have a Readied Action set against a charge. So, you might be impaling yourself onto a Glaive for double dmg, only to watch him 5' (or 10') step back out of your range with Sidestep. Dem boots is nasty. You'd probably be better off making a normal move and trying to get off a manuver if you go first.
You need to initiate Rolibar's at the begining of your 'action' (book doesn't specify move or standard or whatever), so if you have not gone yet, it still works. Also, the AoO comes after the attack, not before.
You should also change from the Sidestep in Mini's Handbook feat to Evasive Reflexes from ToB. It's basically the same feat, only updated, and with lower requirements to get in. Sidestep requires Dodge and Mobility, which I didn't see on your OP.
You need to initiate Rolibar's at the begining of your 'action' (book doesn't specify move or standard or whatever), so if you are flatfooted, it still works. Also, the AoO comes after the attack, not before.
You should also change from the Sidestep in Mini's Handbook feat to Evasive Reflexes from ToB. It's basically the same feat, only updated, and with lower requirements to get in. Sidestep requires Dodge and Mobility, which I didn't see on your OP.
? I see the point on Sidestep. Robilar's is a non-issue against the Charge, however. I'd use the boots' 'always readied' attack (it's not an AoO or his Charge manuver would protect him...it's why I'm not invoking Hold the Line), with a glaive, and then, since I haven't taken any movement action, he could take a 5' step (10' with tumble). Additionally, if I'm allowed to take swift actions during this readied action, I can invoke the Belt of Battles and really get nasty (Overpowering Assault against his Chain might crack it instantly in two...need Imp Sunder not to provoke, tho!).
Evasive Reflexes is indeed better then Sidestep. I'll also note it works perfectly if you are affected by a Covering Strike. Since you can't take AoO, just ER out of threat range.
So many feats, so few slots! As an anti-melee defense I've often debated dropping the spec tree and shooting for Elusive Target...not taking Power Attack dmg tends to annoy Charge and Frag-You melee builds...
====Aelryinth
Covering Strike is a 4th level maneuver from the White Raven, and perfectly legal in this build. Lockdown couldn't use it, even with an item, since it requires 1 white raven maneuver.
Against AoOers, The Lockdown Artist can Stun (White Raven Hammer), Stun (Swooping Dragon Strike), Covering Strike (No AoOs for 3 turns), "Stun" (Disrupting Blow), Do 4 * damage (Diamond Nightmare Blade), and then standard attack to regain maneuvers and start the combo all over again. This sequence allows no AoOs whatsoever, renders the opponent unable to take any actions for 3 out of every 6 turns, and does large amounts of extra damage. It's a different sort of "Lockdown"
The Spiked Chain of awesomeness was not downgraded, there is an additional +1 Valorous Spiked Chain (different weapon). 55K is saved by dropping the constitution bonus by 2. Note that Quickdraw makes using different weapons for different situations more viable.
While I agree that there is more "build flexibility" in the Lockdown, I much rather have "gameplay flexibility", i.e. choices while playing rather than choices while building. Yes, Lockdown has a bunch of sub-optimal feats like Weapon Specialization. But that's part of the problem with a Fighter 20. The first 10 feats are pretty good. After a while, the incremental improvement from feat #92 is lowered, which is why (for example) a Fighter 20 is always less optimal than a Fighter 18/Warblade 2
More later.
He'd be better off going Move Action -> Sudden Leap -> White Raven Hammer on his opening attack. It'd cover the same amount of ground probably, and then auto stun on a hit, which is probable. This is assuming you both know each other's tactics.
The ability scores for The Lockdown Artist are the same as for Lockdown. As noted, higher stats tend to favor The Lockdown Artist, as he has Int synergy, Charisma bonus to Will saves, Uncanny Dodge to make Dex more useful, and more Strength makes his Standstill lock tighter. This isn't MAD, these are additional bonuses.
Pierce Magical Concealment is from Complete Arcane
Covering Strike is a 4th level maneuver from the White Raven, and perfectly legal in this build. Lockdown couldn't use it, even with an item, since it requires 1 white raven maneuver.
Against AoOers, The Lockdown Artist can Stun (White Raven Hammer), Stun (Swooping Dragon Strike), Covering Strike (No AoOs for 3 turns), "Stun" (Disrupting Blow), Do 4 * damage (Diamond Nightmare Blade), and then standard attack to regain maneuvers and start the combo all over again. This sequence allows no AoOs whatsoever, renders the opponent unable to take any actions for 3 out of every 6 turns, and does large amounts of extra damage. It's a different sort of "Lockdown"
The Spiked Chain of awesomeness was not downgraded, there is an additional +1 Valorous Spiked Chain (different weapon). 55K is saved by dropping the constitution bonus by 2. Note that Quickdraw makes using different weapons for different situations more viable.
While I agree that there is more "build flexibility" in the Lockdown, I much rather have "gameplay flexibility", i.e. choices while playing rather than choices while building. Yes, Lockdown has a bunch of sub-optimal feats like Weapon Specialization. But that's part of the problem with a Fighter 20. The first 10 feats are pretty good. After a while, the incremental improvement from feat #92 is lowered, which is why (for example) a Fighter 20 is always less optimal than a Fighter 18/Warblade 2
More later.
There's no current Con bonus inherent in the build, only Str + Dex. So, money issues?
===Aelryinth
A readied action is a single Move, Standard, or Free Action, not a full round action. I guess one you could initiate Rolibar's via that, get your double damage attack, he does his first attack, you sidestep that, and then that'd be that.
He'd be better off going Move Action -> Sudden Leap -> White Raven Hammer on his opening attack. It'd cover the same amount of ground probably, and then auto stun on a hit, which is probable. This is assuming you both know each other's tactics.
I'm lost again. Where's the full round action coming in? The only time it would apply on an opening charge is if you belt of battle off the action from the boots.
A readied action allows you to take a 5' step if you didn't move, or initiate a partial charge, or take a move action. tumble can turn 5' into a 10' step. So take the readied action effect, move out of range. His manuver would expend itself. If you belt of battle for a full round action, you could initiate assault, and pound him twice...once on the full attack for double dmg, and then once on the readied action for triple...and then move out of range.
Ehhh. timing issues.
====Aelryinth
Partial Charges are only a valid choice when you're limited to a single action (such as during the surprise round).
So if Wizard X moves back to cast a spell, you can still charge him to disrupt the spell.
===Aelryinth
SRD sez: "Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. " (Emph mine)
Technically, you ready one specific action, of which partial charge is not one option.
"If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."
emphasis mine.
In other words - you can't ready a partial charge. In fact, even if you're restricted to taking only a standard or move action on your turn, you can't ready a partial charge, since readying is a standard action of its own, and the kinds of actions you can ready don't include charge.
My ready action is "Attack the mage who is going to cast a spell."
He's 30' away.
Now, when my 'turn' comes up (the trigger for the ready action goes off), I'm going to attack him.
To do so, I can indeed charge him, because I am restricted to a move or standard action by the definition of being Ready. I can, however, only move my speed, not twice my speed. This is effectively identical to the restrictions on a suprise round.
I don't ready a Partial Charge per se, but I do ready myself to attack, and yes, you can charge off a ready action...just not very far. It's a very standard tactic!
I notice they even took the Partial Charge language out. Since you are intrinsically limited to a move or standard action by being Ready, then Readying an action to attack/Charge a foe is expressly PERMITTED...you are simply limited in how far you can move.
I see people on these boards ready actions to charge all the time.
The way you are interpreting it seems to think you have to do the charge ahead of time. That is not what the Rule is saying!
===Aelryinth
actually, Erazor, that's the rule I was going to quote!
My ready action is "Attack the mage who is going to cast a spell."
He's 30' away.
Now, when my 'turn' comes up (the trigger for the ready action goes off), I'm going to attack him.
To do so, I can indeed charge him, because I am restricted to a move or standard action by the definition of being Ready. I can, however, only move my speed, not twice my speed. This is effectively identical to the restrictions on a suprise round.
I don't ready a Partial Charge per se, but I do ready myself to attack, and yes, you can charge off a ready action...just not very far. It's a very standard tactic!
I notice they even took the Partial Charge language out. Since you are intrinsically limited to a move or standard action by being Ready, then Readying an action to attack/Charge a foe is expressly PERMITTED...you are simply limited in how far you can move.
I see people on these boards ready actions to charge all the time.
The way you are interpreting it seems to think you have to do the charge ahead of time. That is not what the Rule is saying!
===Aelryinth
If you have seen people readying partial charges on this board then you should tell them to read the rules before posting. You can not ready a partial charge.
because I am restricted to a move or standard action by the definition of being Ready
You are not restricted to a single move or standard action you simply have chosen to ready a diffrent action then to take a full round action. Restricted = a suprise round or being slowed etc which limits your action choices. If all of your action choices are available at the begining of your round then you are not restricted.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Emphasis mine. Note that it says on your turn. Not on your turn after you have already preformed actions. If all of your action catagorys are available to you at the begining of your turn you are not restricted.
Secondly:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Your readied action is not your "turn" it is the action that you readied. Your initiative count and thus the designation of your "turn" does not change until after you have taken your readied action.
Edit:
Lets take this one step further using your definition of restricted:
Situation: I am a barbarian x with cleave great cleave and 15 foot reach (spiked chain and something else) with 5 targets around me and another group of 5 targets 30ft away. I use a standard attack action plus cleaves which count as the same action to kill all 5 targets around me. By your definition I am now restricted to a single move action and thus qualify for a partial charge action. This allows me to charge 30ft into the next group of targets and kill them all with cleave. See the problem here with your definition.
Your initiative count has moved, you take actions, you roll dice. You basically shifted your turn from when you stated you'd ready to the moment it went off.
That's where you are getting confused. It IS your turn now...and you are restricted to a set of actions which includes a partial charge.
if you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Emphasis mine. It IS now your turn, because you made it so, and thus, you can partial charge.
Ergo, don't keep telling me to read the rules. You can debate them..but that is your perogative, and doesn't mean your interpretation is right.
===Aelryinth
Uh, excuse me, your readied action IS your turn.
Your initiative count has moved, you take actions, you roll dice. You basically shifted your turn from when you stated you'd ready to the moment it went off.
That's where you are getting confused. It IS your turn now...and you are restricted to a set of actions which includes a partial charge.
if you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Emphasis mine. It IS now your turn, because you made it so, and thus, you can partial charge.
Ergo, don't keep telling me to read the rules. You can debate them..but that is your perogative, and doesn't mean your interpretation is right.
===Aelryinth
Incorrect. Your initiative count does not change until after you have taken your readied action.
I'd requote the parts that absolutely, 100% refute what you are saying, but you would just ignore them again. I don't know what game you are playing, but it isn't the one described by the rules.
Aelryinth, you have gone from "Fast and Loose" to "Ludicrous Speed and Covered in Axle Grease". No you are just ignoring quotes for the SRD and books, and making things up whole cloth.
I'd requote the parts that absolutely, 100% refute what you are saying, but you would just ignore them again. I don't know what game you are playing, but it isn't the one described by the rules.
And I find it very interesting that the only people I've ever seen endorse the rules as you see are also the people most negative to the threads on the whole...and the most insulting.
The barbarian example up above is one of those. Equating the ability to move as part of taking his standard action is by no means the same thing as being restricted to a standard action or move action...which is PRECISELY what a readied action is, and is PRECISELY permitted by a charge. A whirlwind attack is something you used your action on...it has nothing to do with a Ready action, why was it even brought up. You are not permitted all your actions on a Ready action...you cannot,for instance, perform a Full Attack.
You can make a charge as a Readied action, moving up to your speed, but not twice it. It's right there, it's obvious, and in five years on these boards, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone even start to dispute it, let alone try to argue the point and tell me I'm wrong.
It's more funny then anything, people piling on any way they can just to wag their finger and say I'm wrong, when the rules are clearly in my favor.
Oh, well, on with our regularly scheduled drama. Feel free to disagree, but just because we disagree on the rules doesn't make me the one that's wrong, and the vast majority of people looking at the thread just don't care.
==========================================
billyH, your gold totals were as out of whack as my old ones were...in short, you've got a ton of extra gear there, if you are adding that stuff on after Previn's subtotaled list was put up. What are you sacrificing to get all that extra gear? (the Int booster, 2nd chain, Manuver toys, etc.)
==Aelryinth
When you ready an action, that is your action; if the conditions you set for your readied action never take place, you do not act again in that round.
When you ready an action, your initiative does not change until that readied action is triggered. If the conditions are met and you take your readied action, you initiative is different the next round (moving to whenever your readied action was triggered). If the conditions to trigger your readied action were never met, then your initiative remains the same the next round.
I'm not going to arbitrate all the other points being argued. Please keep it civil to avoid warns and getting this thread locked.
It's not as detailed as Lockdown (which, ah, takes a lot of time!), but it should give anyone wanting to build a straight Warblade to 20 a good guideline.
===========================================
Basics:
Str 15
Int 13
Wis 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Cha 8
As requested, I left the human feat wide-open...take what you like. This lets the build work with other races as well.
Level 1: Feat = Exotic Weapon Prof (spiked chain). Stance = Punishing Stance. Maneuvers = Steel Wind, Stone Bones, Moment of Perfect Mind.
At this point, he's pretty straightforward...use Punishing stance and reach to dish it out before enemies can close. Will is his weak save (Fort and Ref both +3), so use Moment of PM to compensate.
Level 2: New maneuver = Douse the Flames (cover for teammates, but I don't even know if I'd ready it most times). Pick up Uncanny Dodge.
Level 3: Feat = Stand Still. New Maneuver = Disarming Strike (damage + debuff is always nice). Also get Int (+1) to confirm crits.
Might want to ready Disarming Strike instead of Stone Bones.
Level 4: Trade Stone Bones for Stone Vice. New Stance = Stance of Clarity. Ability increase = Str +1 (to 16)
What I hate is that Warblades get their second stance ONE LEVEL away from being able to get a higher-level stance. As it is, I just add a first level, which kinda sucks. I chose a Diamond Mind stance to help with qualifying for prereqs for maneuvers. The trade depends on your preferences, but Stone Vice is nifty...stand still can lock someone on an AoO, this lets you do it on your turn (and the fact that it's a Fort save instead of a Ref save might help vs. high Ref enemies). You can now ready 4 maneuvers out of your 5, so Douse the Flames is probably still sitting the bench most of the time.
Level 5: Bonus feat = Combat Reflexes (a little slow to get this, but now we're talking). New Manuever = Ironheart Surge.
Okay, we have our 3 AoO per round...that increases the utility of Stand Still. Ironheart Surge helps against nasty status spells...I'd ready it in place of Steel Wind or Disarming Strike. By this point, you're probably aching for some fighter feats (power attack and the wep foc/spec line could help now), but Punishing Stance and Strikes help make up for it.
Level 6: Feat = Martial Study (Foehammer). Trade Steel Wind for Bonecrusher. Pick up Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Foehammer is mainly to qualify for Thicket of Blades in a few levels (you can replace it with any low-level Devoted Spirit maneuver you like...but there aren't many, and I consider Foehamer the best one without prereqs). Now that we have iteratives, Steel Wind loses a bit of utility, so I replace it with a higher-damage strike. My readied maneuvers now are probably Moment of Perfect Mind, Ironheart Surge, Stone Vice, and Bonecrusher.
Level 7: New Maneuver = Lightning Recovery (might ready it in place of Stone Vice, now that Stand Still is doing more thanks to Combat Reflexes, or in place of Bonecrusher if you value control over damage). Also get Int (+1, but maybe higher if you can afford a booster) to damage vs. flanked/flatfooted.
Level 8: Trade Douse the Flames for Overwhelming Mountain Strike (I'd probably ready this right away...readied maneuvers are now O.M. Strike, Moment of P.M., Ironheart Surge, and either Bonecrusher or Lightning Recovery, according to taste). Ability increase = Int +1 (to 14)
Level 9: Feat = Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades). Bonus feat = Improved Initiative. New Maneuver = Disrupting Blow (but no new readied to add it to lineup...grrrr. Could trade it in for Bonecrusher/Lightning Recovery...it's a good strike).
Thicket really helps control. Now anyone within 10' (15' if you have Enlarge in spell/potion) provokes by moving, allowing you to really keep people where you want them using Stand Still...combined with O.M. Strike, you can hold a bunch of people (by this point, you really want a Dex booster to maximize Combat Reflexes).
Level 10: Trade Disarming Strike for Rapid Counter. New Stance = Dancing Blade Form.
Some might prefer Roots of the Mountain for their stance choice...I like Dancing Blade because it makes nice reach into REALLY nice reach. You also get a new readied maneuver, which lets you add Rapid Counter right into your lineup...more AoOs.
Level 11: New maneuver = Crushing Vice (swap it into your readied list in place of O.M. Strike). Also get Int (+2 or more) to opposed battle rolls.
Level 12: Feat = Robilar's Gambit (nice). Trade Stone Vice for Irresistable Mt. Strike. Ability increase = Dex +1 (to 15)
Ah, the build begins to come together. Robilar's lets you AoO people who attack you, Thicket lets you AoO people who move around you. Depending on circumstances, you might want to start refreshing every other round to maximize your use of Rapid Counter...enemy's turn Counter, your turn (no swift) use a Strike, enemy's turn skip your Counter, your turn refresh. Repeat as appropriate. Your readied list should now be Crushing Vice, Irresistable Mt. Strike, Rapid Counter, Disrupting Strike, and either Moment of Perfect Mind or Ironheart Surge (whichever you find more useful).
Level 13: New Maneuver = Finishing Move (might want to swap in, probably in place of one of your Stone Dragon strikes). Bonus feat = Lightning Reflexes.
Level 14: Trade Bonecrusher for Quicksilver Motion (might want to swap in, maybe for Disrupting Strike...but it'll get more useful at higher levels).
Level 15: Feat = ????. New Maneuver = Diamond Defense (and a new readied maneuver, so put this in at once!). Also, get Int (+2 or more) on attack/damage on AoOs.
The feat is flexible. I originally had Martial Stance (Aura of Perfect Order), which is a sweet stance to have, trust me. But other good options include Power Attack (I know, this late? But now you've got the BAB to spare to make it useful, especially for boosting Stand Still) or Adaptive Style (being able to sub-in useful maneuvers with only a full-round action could be a lifesaver). Another good option (as was pointed out to me by Meyer_William) is Mage Slayer, to truly lockdown mages (who might be tempted to escape your reach with a quick teleport).
Level 16: New Stance = Stance of Alacrity. Trade Lighting Recovery for Diamond Nightmare Blade.
Probably time to revise your lineup...readied maneuvers should be: Diamond Defense, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Rapid Counter, Crushing Vice, Quicksilver Motion...and 1 of your choice, depending on tactics (I like Finishing Move, but Disrupting Blow, Ironheart Surge and Moment of P.M. are still good). Quicksilver motion is good for moving into range and then cutting loose a full attack. Alternately, use your regular move action to close and then deliver a good strike like Diamond NM Blade or Disrupting Blow. Or if you've got a lot of ground to cover, Quicksilver, then move action, then strike. And of course, you can get your Robilar's working. If it seems like you have too many stances, you're right...you do. I consider Alacrity best on defense (constant use of Diamond Defense), Thicket best for AoOs (naturally), and Dancing Blade best for offense (unless you took Aura of Perfect Order at 15t). But fear not...a few more levels...
Level 17: New Maneuver = Time Stands Still. Bonus feat = Iron Will (unless you like something else better).
The Quicksilver tactic just got better...move as a swift, unleash a double full attack. This is great for single opponents or multiple. You'll need to drop something to put it in your lineup, though...probably that last variable maneuver.
Level 18: Feat = Defensive Sweep. Trade Overwhelming Mountain Strike for Adamantine Hurricane.
Ah, defensive sweep...they are now literally damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they don't move, they get AoO'd...but if they DO move, they get AoO'd, and with Stand Still (among other options) they simply CAN'T move, and get AoO'd. Adamantine Hurricane is nice if you can fit it into your lineup...if you want to emphasize offense (trusting Robilar's, Thicket, and Stand Still for defense) you might ready Quicksilver Motion, Time Stands Still, Diamond Nightmare or Finishing Move, and Adamantine Hurricane. This makes the "quick-kill" tactic a 2 round blitz. Single Opponent? Quicksilver to close, Time Stands Still...if he's still up, follow up next round with a massive Strike. Multiple? In this case, I'd Quicksilver in, then use Adamantine Hurricane...follow up next round with Time Stands Still to surgically take down everyone a blow at a time. Basically, you're a living area effect.
Level 19: New Maneuver = Strike of Perfect Clarity (yet another quick-kill massive strike).
Level 20: Trade? If you want. Get your 7th readied maneuver, which gives you more versatility in your lineup. And you get the pinnacle...Stance Mastery. Remember how you had too many stances at level 16? Now you can use 2 at once.
==========================
The biggest benefits of a Warblade are the ability to max out his Int score for additional bonuses, and the capstone ability of two stances at once, allowing him to maintain Thicket of Blades and another stance, such as Alacrity (for defensive purposes) at the same time. This would also help with a Dual Martial Weapon (+5 Devoted Spirit/Diamond Mind weapon in a dual stance is a +11/+5 weapon).
===================
At level 13, I'd suggest instead of Lightning Reflexes to take Martial Study and grab another manuver from somewhere. This will increase your Manuvers known and Readied...just make sure it's one you'd always want (Mind over Body, the Reflex Conc save, is a good candidate, as is Covering strike if you have a White Raven manuver you can swap in/out...Covering strike shuts down AoO builds for 3 rds.)
At level 15, you should seriously be thinking about Power Attack if you don't have it.
Your level 17 feat should be Mountain Tombstone (no prereqs for the level 9 Stone Dragon Strike) via Martial Study (and it adds to total manuvers, again). After all, why have Iron Will when your Conc check is at least +25 by now?
Thanks for the effort!
===Aelryinth
nevermind
At level 13, I'd suggest instead of Lightning Reflexes to take Martial Study and grab another manuver from somewhere. This will increase your Manuvers known and Readied...
Your level 17 feat should be Mountain Tombstone (no prereqs for the level 9 Stone Dragon Strike) via Martial Study (and it adds to total manuvers, again)...
Two quick things, Ael.
1.) Unless I'm missing something, Martial Study isn't on the list of bonus feats for Warblades. I took Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will because, of the feats you can choose from, they're among the most generally useful (after the 2 you've already taken at 5th and 9th)...some might like Diehard or Endurance, or one of the discipline feats...
2.) Again, could be mistaken...but in the description of Martial Study, I don't see any line that talks about it increasing your maneuvers readied. It says that if you have martial adept levels, it's added to your maneuvers known, but says nothing about maneuvers readied.
Cheers.
===Aelryinth
Spectacular job with this build- one of the best fighter builds I've ever seen. I do have a couple of observations in terms of feat progression, mostly pedantic stuff that doesn't affect the build overall:
Fighter Feats
1- Improved Initiative
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat.
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
You have to switch these around- you can't take WF with a weapon you're not proficent in. So EWP/WF at first level, or II/EWP at first level.
8- Greater weapon focus
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
I forget- if GWF a prereq for MWM? I don't think it is. If not, then these two should be turned around- MWM at 8th.
One more thing to mention- I'd always take the Drow Scorpion Chain over the Spiked Chain (doubel threat range vs a crummy 1.5 points of damage per hit). The Spiked Chain is better in the early levels, but that double threat range is really nice later on. Of course, that lowers the DC of those reflex saves a bit later on, so maybe not....
I also personally despise the Chain and its uber mechanics, but what can you do?
MWM has Weapon Spec prereq, not GWF. It also showcases the whole problem with the Fighter feat system...do I take this feat giving me +1 TH with one weapon I like, or this other feat with the same reqs giving me +2/+2 with that weapon, and a bunch of others like it?
Yeah...
===Aelryinth
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat.
3- None
4- Weapon Spec
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.)
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO)
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE)
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE.
17- None
18- Deft opportunist
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO)
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat.
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes)
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage)
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s)
Iv'e looked at the build, and it seems pretty strong. I just have absolutly NO IDEA what half of these feats are since I only have access to the core rule books.
Could you elabourrate on the feats not from these books?
Thanks.
just thought I would mention this: since when does MAGE slayer kill Manifester levels? it only affects Spells and Spell like abilities. Says nothing about manifester levels. In other words: adding in those psywarrior levels wouldn't be hindered by the mage slayer feats at all. Just thought I would mention this.
Transparency rules assume that unless specifically cited otherwise, penalties to spellcasting levels/manifester levels also effect the other. this also means that spellcasting defensively being impossible also refers to manifesting defensively.
I am using transparency rules as the assumed default. if you want to rule it out...go right ahead. It certainly doesn't hurt the build, but it gives a very unfair advantage to psis vs. magi.
===Aelryinth
Iv'e looked at the build, and it seems pretty strong. I just have absolutly NO IDEA what half of these feats are since I only have access to the core rule books.
Could you elabourrate on the feats not from these books?
Thanks.
Going into detail on a lot of feats violates posting guidelines.
I believe every feat that I reference can be found here:
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl
OVerpowering Assault is a Fighter Sub level at 16th from the PH II.
Martial Study and Martial Stance allows Fighters to take manuvers and stances from the Book of Nine Swords.
==Aelryinth
Spring attack
Again we come to an ability that says "moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender".
What trumps what? Thicket of blades? Why? It takes 3 feats, a BAB requirement and a Dex requirement to get Spring Attack, yet a single Martial Maneuver trumps it ?
Again - we have these all-or-nothing type abilities (many of which revolve around AoO, I noticed), with few clear rules to determine between them.
Reading DrObviousSo's interpretation of Thicket of Blades, I'm more and more inclined to read it as specifically and exclusively adding the 5' step and Withdraw actions to the list of movements that provoke. If it were to affect tumbling or spring attack, it would have explicitly mentioned them.
Moreover, nothing overrules the specific rule that says "movement through multiple threatened squares only provokes one AoO".
Basically, if you already took an AoO for a movement through your threatened area, it doesn't matter if it was because they were entering, or leaving any one of your squares, you only get one shot.
I'll note that i"ve never said this manuver trumps spring attack or any of the half-dozen manuvers that also prevent AoO. Those kind of things are what you take ready actions for.
I do believe it trumps Tumble, since Tumble is normal movement, not a feat or manuver. But, YMMV. Clear it with your DM, is all I can say.
And you DO get to take an extra AoO for an opponent entering a square you threaten, by definition of Hold the Line. It IS a different triggering option. the normal definition of leaving multiple squares doesn't apply here.
===Aelryinth
I'm probably missing something obvious, but you keep referencing the Knockdown Feat, and don't actually have it on your feat list. Nor would you qualify, as you aren't large.
From the SRD:
Knock-Down [General]
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
He also needs that 13 Int to make them happen. I took them out because, in the end, this isn't a Tripping Build, it's a Stand Still build. Tripping would use very different mechanics and items. There's already a gatling Gun Tripper, I see no reason to infringe on that space.
===Aelryinth
Posting here instead of the Druid vs. Fighter post where they DEMANDED a build and just waved away anything which shattered their image of the invincible Druid.
See below. I'll still point out that the key to dealing with the druid is nothing inherent in the fighter or build. Get an AMF item, Thicket of Blades, Standstill and high damage output and the fighter is replaced.
Moreover, I'm not sure on Cash balance. Might have to take Ancestral RElic so the main weapon doesn't count against cash, or something.
You don't get anything for free with Ancestral Relic. Market value of goods doesn't change, ever. Thanks for ignoring me over that.
The Fighter Build:
Show
Lockdown, NG F/20, Human. (alignment is not important, nor is race)
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat.
3- None
4- Weapon Spec
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.)
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO)
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE)
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE.
17- None
18- Deft opportunist
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO)
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat.
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes)
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage)
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s)
Gear
Weapon: +3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit adamantine shadow striking spiked chain (or glaive)(+7 weapon = 98,000 for enhancements +3000 for material)
Body: +5 Mithral BP w/ +5 natural armor (75000 for enhancements +5000 for material)
Non Slotted: +3 Inherent bonus to Dex, +5 to Str. (110,000 for +5, 82500 for +3 so 192,500 (Manual of whatever x2))
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Back: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Ring1: Ring of Blinking w/ +5 deflection bonus (77,000)
Ring2: Ring of Invisibility (20,000)---Optional (for stealth use!
Feet: Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Neck: Anti-Magic Torc w/ +6 con (71,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle w/ +6 str (48,000)
Hands: Locking Gauntlets of War w/ +6 dex (40,000)
Torso: Vest of +10 Tumble (10,000)
Arms: Open
Face: Open
Head: Open
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free.
~752k out of 760.
Fighter Bonus Feats
1- Improved Initiative
2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat.
3- None
4- Weapon Spec
5- None
6- Stand Still (i.e. Don’t Move, you.)
7- None
8- Greater weapon focus
9- None
10- Martial Stance – Thicket of blades (All movement out of squares threatened is AoO)
11- None
12- Close Quarters Fighting (oh, grapple me, PLEASE)
13- None
14- Greater Weapon Spec
15- None
16- Overpowering Assault (Double dmg instead of full attack, affects AoO’s) === Build is now MATURE.
17- None
18- Deft opportunist
19- None
20- Defensive Sweep (if someone adjacent to you does not move, triggers AoO)
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat.
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes)
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage)
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s)
Gear
Weapon: +3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit adamantine shadow striking spiked chain (or glaive)(+7 weapon = 98,000 for enhancements +3000 for material)
Body: +5 Mithral BP w/ +5 natural armor (75000 for enhancements +5000 for material)
Non Slotted: +3 Inherent bonus to Dex, +5 to Str. (110,000 for +5, 82500 for +3 so 192,500 (Manual of whatever x2))
A Mind Blank item (43,200 for 1 command word use per day)
Back: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Ring1: Ring of Blinking w/ +5 deflection bonus (77,000)
Ring2: Ring of Invisibility (20,000)---Optional (for stealth use!
Feet: Winged Steadfast boots of speed and striding. (Total cost for this item: 44,350)
Neck: Anti-Magic Torc w/ +6 con (71,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle w/ +6 str (48,000)
Hands: Locking Gauntlets of War w/ +6 dex (40,000)
Torso: Vest of +10 Tumble (10,000)
Arms: Open
Face: Open
Head: Open
Tossing in the potions of enlarge for free.
~752k out of 760.
But nooo, now the fighter also has to defeat the caster in a unique way. Next thing the fighter can't attack because all classes can attack, right?
So, I declare that the casters aren't allowed to take actions of any kind, because everybody can do actions...Oh, it's true, everything characters can do is actions. As well as everybody having feats and attacks. So denying someone of his feats and attacks is simply ridiculous.
All the fighter gets is feats for god's sake! Of course that in order to defeat an oponent he will use feats! What, you wanted to see some build who allowed the fighter to shoot doom bolts from his ass?
Second, you throw back a druid who has alternative levels, when half the CO's complain whenever someone posts a fighter build who takes alternative levels. So are the fighters allowed to take alternative level choices or not?
Third, the AC's won't save their masters on time. The fighter can take 3 turns of punishment. Can the druid or the wizard can claim the same when completely unbuffed? At the best of chances for the druid it is a race to see who drops dead first. The fighter still has 3 AOO, one for the AC(who'll probably be tripped and stoped) and 2 for the nasty caster.
Geting knockdown? Well, just be a human. There, one more feat. Or flaws. It's not like the CO don't use them left and right. Since you got those AC of ultimate doom it's not like the fighter can't pick unhearted arcana for some good stuff.
for the link:D
So what will make you COs happy? He posted a fighter who could lock a caster and kill him.
No he posted a build that in theory, if he won initiative, if he was within reasonable range, if the mage had no idea that he was coming, and if the mage was a complete moron with zero of the standard end game wizard tricks up his sleave, might be able to beat a wizard. Congradulation, he has beaten a retard NPC at best. And while doing it went way over budget, has had to be corrected on multiple rules and machanics, and has ignored people simply becuase he can not counter their arguments.
And, what's more, I think the lock fighter is effective enough to actually still have a place in a level 20 party. Although he won't beat any mages on his own, a teleport from the party wizard will produce far more effect than that spell slot normally would.
While I don't think anyone would reasonably believe this counters casters on its own, I do think it's about as near to a non-magical counter as you'll find.
...For a fighter 20. Things that make lockdown better:
Crusader dip(thicket of blades)
Occult Slayer
Witch Slayer
Pious templar 4(pure gain)
Lion totem barbarian
following WBL
Not relying on items to pull it's trick.
No he posted a build that in theory, if he won initiative, if he was within reasonable range, if the mage had no idea that he was coming, and if the mage was a complete moron with zero of the standard end game wizard tricks up his sleave, might be able to beat a wizard. Congradulation, he has beaten a retard NPC at best. And while doing it went way over budget, has had to be corrected on multiple rules and machanics, and has ignored people simply becuase he can not counter their arguments.
I posted a build that, in theory, has an excellent chance of winning initiative over a spellcaster, was designed to work within normal encounter ranges and not the hundreds of yards a spellcaster would prefer; and the spellcaster was not a complete DM PC with every option and trick in every book a CO board member could pull out so as to be utterly unkillable by God, let alone a mere fighter.
Congrats to me, I made a decent Fighter build which earned a lot of attention; people commented on it and I made alterations in response to those comments, and I even directly thanked and attributed most of them; and I ignore people who are so rude in their arguments and cliche' in their justifications as to not make countering them worthwhile. The overbearing rudeness and lack of civility of some of them is infectious, and I don't like the disease.
And somehow, strangely, I keep responding to people on this post, which is why it stays alive. If I didn't, it would just fade away like all the others.
=============
Really, the only wizard who came up with a build I could not see Lockdown having an excellent chance against is the one who travelled everywhere locked inside his own Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. I really don't have an answer to that one, except to mock any spellcaster who spends 24/7 inside a little yellow ball. It was a totally unrealistic tactic for any caster, but, I have to admit, it worked!
The rest of them were pulling spells from every source they had, citing Contingencies with either no wordings or wording so vague they'd be going off all the time and hence be useless, or relying so completely on the 'Core Three' cheese spells of Shapechange, Time Stop and Gate so as to be almost laughable.
===Aelryinth
...For a fighter 20. Things that make lockdown better:
Crusader dip(thicket of blades)
Occult Slayer
Witch Slayer
Pious templar 4(pure gain)
Lion totem barbarian
following WBL
Not relying on items to pull it's trick.
Crusader dip would have to be for a minimum of 2 levels, because the first stance is always level 1. It also kicks back the 'top' of the build from 16, which is not good.
The barbarian level might be worth it for the pounce, and then it might not. If you can get it with a manuver, get a manuver. Also note, that unless you are a TWF, Pounce is useless until level 6. It might add some to offense, but Lockdown wasn't designed as a charger build, which optimizes Pounce.
People rely on spells to replace fighter abilities. Fighters rely on items to replace other classes abilities, yet fighters are looked down on? This is a famous double standard.
The other three classes might or might not have pre-reqs that include feats not in the build, or alignment or other restrictions.
There's only been one other build posted to the thread, and that was a Warblade build. Otherwise, they are just throwing out stuff. Even the Warblade guy admitted he was pretty feat-starved there, and he did a good job on his build. He even located a mage-killing feat I'd missed! (even if it was from Dragon, every good mage slayer should have Occult Opportunist!)
I admit myself that the last 4 levels of the class could be pretty open. Once you get OVerpowering Assault, the Lock is in because the Reflex save is untouchable. I want that Lock at 16, not at 20. Stupid to have a great trick and it is only good at the end of the game. The last two Fighter Feats are topping on a completed cake.
And the option of taking FIVE other feats, instead of the weapon spec tree, really opens things up to the optimizer who knows some good feats, and doesn't like Puny Damage Mods. And then some others will notice it's only two feats away from having weapon supremacy, and maybe they want to switch out that last couple of feats.
Lockdown is pretty viable at all levels, and he matures really quick. Sure, you can tweak him this way and that, but for a foundation build you can tailor to your own way of doing things, he does the job pretty well.
===Aelryinth
While its virtually impossible to test, my impression is that by and large, if you took a random subset of all Druid 20 builds that have ever found there way into a D&D game out there, and took a similar subset of Fighter 20 builds that have ever found their way into a game, and placed them into encounters against one another, more of the Druids would beat the Fighters. Would there be Fighters that could beat Druids? Sure. But that's not really the issue when determining whether Druids are overpowered/Fighters are underpowered.
Lockdown is an excellent tactic for a Fighter going up against a caster, and I applaud you for your work, but IMO, a single build is irrelevant to the Fighter vs. Druid discussion.
I posted a build that, in theory, has an excellent chance of winning initiative over a spellcaster
And that isn't a certanty as has been shown esspecially when contingencies come into play.
, was designed to work within normal encounter ranges and not the hundreds of yards a spellcaster would prefer
A value set by you and not any official source.
and the spellcaster was not a complete DM PC with every option and trick in every book a CO board member could pull out so as to be utterly unkillable by God, let alone a mere fighter.
You say this and yet anytime such a tactic or trick is presented you say that we are tailoring the wizards build to counter yours.
people rely on spells to replace fighter abilities. Fighters rely on items to replace other classes abilities, yet fighters are looked down on? This is a famous double standard.
===Aelryinth
Spells don't replace fighter abilities because the fighter has no abilities of his own to replicate. Also spells come from the character, items do not. It's no where near a double standard. It's one class saying I can use this class ability to do X and the fighter saying well I can buy an item to do that so I must be just as good.
Item dependancy: it's because unlike spellcasting (class feature), items and wealth cannot be assured and be dependant on for a tactic's success.
People rely on spells to replace fighter abilities. Fighters rely on items to replace other classes abilities, yet fighters are looked down on? This is a famous double standard.
Well, in the case of casters emulating fighters, they are only doing a temporary resource allocation while fighters are permanently slotted into whatever their gimmick may be. A druid who takes fighter feats while maintaining all the awesomeness that is 'druid' hasn't pidgeon-holed himself either.
A fighter's game is feats, and feats are available (to a lesser extent) to everyone. Still, one of the things you can do with an abundance of feats -- since you usually only need 'so many' combat feats -- is use your 1, 3, 6... feats on obscure feat chains. Fey heritage (charm monster at ECL 6!) and Aberrant feats (inhuman reach) are nice examples.
But sadly, for any campaign set to go over 12, a straight fighter will too often fall behind and feel useless in many situations since he brings the same 'bag-o-tricks' to every encounter.
And that isn't a certanty as has been shown esspecially when contingencies come into play.
Yes, the very, very, very nebulous solve-all that wizards fall back on. My contingencies will cover it. It's good all contingiencies are good against all threats all the time, and all spellcasters have access to contingency!
A value set by you and not any official source.
A value set by people that play and part of the build. He's not a ranged attacker, and he's not MEANT to be effective at range...unless you slap on a good bow.
You say this and yet anytime such a tactic or trick is presented you say that we are tailoring the wizards build to counter yours.
No, you keep bringing in new spells and tricks and I keep defeating them without changing his allocations all that much, and then some of the tricks and techniques are so outlandish and/or restricted to 17+ level casters as to make me just laugh!
(Like, the wizard lugging around the tower shield, or riding in the Resilient sphere!)Spells don't replace fighter abilities because the fighter has no abilities of his own to replicate. Also spells come from the character, items do not. It's no where near a double standard. It's one class saying I can use this class ability to do X and the fighter saying well I can buy an item to do that so I must be just as good.
Fighters have plenty of abilities to replicate...BAB, high HP for starters (clerics do this) and feats..many, many feats (spells do this, of which Heroics is only the most blatant). Any spell which purports to make a more effective melee combatant via increased bonuses TH/DMG is effectively comparing itself against the Spec tree and the fighter's combat bonuses (High Str polymorph builds effectively compare against heavy armor prof, shield prof, high BAB, weapon spec, and proficiency in reach weapons).
You not seeing that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence over your ability to assess classes.
==Aelryinth
First, I want to say I love this build both as a springboard to others and a demo of what fighter 20 may accomplish.
Well, in the case of casters emulating fighters, they are only doing a temporary resource allocation while fighters are permanently slotted into whatever their gimmick may be. A druid who takes fighter feats while maintaining all the awesomeness that is 'druid' hasn't pidgeon-holed himself either.
A fighter's game is feats, and feats are available (to a lesser extent) to everyone. Still, one of the things you can do with an abundance of feats -- since you usually only need 'so many' combat feats -- is use your 1, 3, 6... feats on obscure feat chains. Fey heritage (charm monster at ECL 6!) and Aberrant feats (inhuman reach) are nice examples.
But sadly, for any campaign set to go over 12, a straight fighter will too often fall behind and feel useless in many situations since he brings the same 'bag-o-tricks' to every encounter.
Oh, I agree, the permanent need to be a melee killer does limit him from being other things. Of course, buying items to make him a more effective melee killing machine all the time does tend to do a better job then temporary spells that make others somewhat less effective killers some of the time.
And being useless and falling behind is a matter of intelligent play and tactics, more then anything else. Relevance outside of combat is what you make of it, and as levels go higher, the increased exposure to toys that expand your capabilities mean this is a 'hollow' argument...it looks good on the surface, but open it up and you realize it just has no substance to it. Being able to bring the 'same old thing' to a fight, when you are getting massively better at that same old thing, can be very, very crucial.
===Aelryinth
aelryinth: Let me elaborate. Lockdown is a great fighter 20, but it would be better to drop the wpn focus chain and actually get the extra feats you refer to as countertactics. Also, while the purity of fighter 20 is a nice theoretical, dipping around (you'd certainly want at least 4 ftr levels) makes for a stronger PC in every way.
Item dependancy: it's because unlike spellcasting (class feature), items and wealth cannot be assured and be dependant on for a tactic's success.
Actually, wealth is just as assured as spellcasting is, because it's part of each and every class, and by default you can get whatever you want to pay for. It's another factor that people keep ignoring. It's an assumed part of every class. Ignore it, and you throw off class balance very quickly.
And items at most levels of play are much better to have then spells, because they never wear out or are dispelled. It cuts down the reliance factor big time. In short, items are FAR MORE DEPENDABLE then spellcasting. Having items means you can do the tactic whenever you like. Having spells means you FIRST have to get the spell up, and hope it's STILL up. Spells actually trade Power and Versatility for Dependability vs. items.
Now, if you game where the game ends when all the spells are gone (what the 4E people say is the 8 to 8:05 gaming session) then spells Rool. The fighter mindset isn't built that way.
If you think all those sub levels are great, then make a build! Don't just trot them out, mouth words, and expect us to swallow them. There's trade-offs for everything. I gave a lot of alternate feats for the spec tree...if you think there's a better Fighter build that does what he does, take them and shine!
But, don't argue if someone else decides they really, really want Weapon Supremacy, too. Cause Supremacy IS pretty damn Kewl.
===Aelryinth
Last I checked fighter doesn't get high str as a class feature. That's barbarian.
High Str is being used to supply TH and DMG bonuses, by the polymorpher. You are reading my post wrong. It's one of the big reasons why Polymorph is overpowered.
For instance, polymorphing into a Firbolg at level 7 gives a mage better TH and DMG bonuses then Nature's Avatar, a 9th level Druid spell, grants. Clearly, a wee bit overpowered, to say nothing of the other stats, Nat AC bonuses, reach, and all the specials it can also grant.
===Aelryinth
Actually, wealth is just as assured as spellcasting is, because it's part of each and every class, and by default you can get whatever you want to pay for. It's another factor that people keep ignoring. It's an assumed part of every class. Ignore it, and you throw off class balance very quickly.
Does your DM check every session to how everybody compares to WBL? A few too many deaths or thefts can quickly throw off WBL if you don't pay close attention.
Yes, the very, very, very nebulous solve-all that wizards fall back on. My contingencies will cover it. It's good all contingiencies are good against all threats all the time, and all spellcasters have access to contingency!
"anytime someone make a hostile attack action cast timestop" Thats not nebulous and it's perfectly within the rules. You charge, I timestop.
A value set by people that play and part of the build. He's not a ranged attacker, and he's not MEANT to be effective at range...unless you slap on a good bow.
So just becuase your build is meant to be effective within a certain range your combats will always start out within that range? As I said you are deaming whats easonable not the rules. This is the problem when someone trys to play both their posted build and the DM at the same time. You are schewing things.
No, you keep bringing in new spells and tricks and I keep defeating them without changing his allocations all that much, and then some of the tricks and techniques are so outlandish and/or restricted to 17+ level casters as to make me just laugh!
Wizards have far more spells than a fighter has feats and we have brought up less spells than the number of feats you have changed in the build. As for outlandish tactics, welcome to the CO board. hell go look at bombing the temple thread, we have a mage nuking a 10+ mile range for a couple thouand d6 damage at level 6.
Fighters have plenty of abilities to replicate...BAB, high HP for starters (clerics do this) and feats..many, many feats (spells do this, of which Heroics is only the most blatant). Any spell which purports to make a more effective melee combatant via increased bonuses TH/DMG is effectively comparing itself against the Spec tree and the fighter's combat bonuses (High Str polymorph builds effectively compare against heavy armor prof, shield prof, high BAB, weapon spec, and proficiency in reach weapons).
You not seeing that doesn't exactly fill me with confidence over your ability to assess classes.
==Aelryinth
Really so I am only replicating the fighter? gee here I thought I was replicating the barbarian, ranger, duskblade, or any other class with a full BAB or higher HP.
You not realizing that BAB and HP are not spacific to the fighter alone and claim them as class features does not fill me with the confidance in your ability period.
IMO any 1-build-vs.-another-build threads are irrelevant to a discussion of whether the Fighter is underpowered or (insert caster X here). The power of the class isn't the upper-limit of its capabilities, but its capabilities when placed into hands of a player of average optimizing ability.
While its virtually impossible to test, my impression is that by and large, if you took a random subset of all Druid 20 builds that have ever found there way into a D&D game out there, and took a similar subset of Fighter 20 builds that have ever found their way into a game, and placed them into encounters against one another, more of the Druids would beat the Fighters. Would there be Fighters that could beat Druids? Sure. But that's not really the issue when determining whether Druids are overpowered/Fighters are underpowered.
Lockdown is an excellent tactic for a Fighter going up against a caster, and I applaud you for your work, but IMO, a single build is irrelevant to the Fighter vs. Druid discussion.
I always like to lean back on two things.
1) Wildshaping is not nearly the threat on its own it seems to be, nor is the Animal Companion. At higher levels, they need buffing to the moon to be viable for the level.
2) Antimagic shell should be a a standard tactic for non-casters against casters. It's simply that powerful. But, no one really uses it, because of the huge 'death cheese' factor. I use it, openly and pretty blatantly. It's really only needed at higher levels, when the broken spells start to show up, and people crow about caster uberness.
AMF shuts them right up. It's so basic, and it makes them squirm. Casters have their place, and when they get uppity about it, that place is stickinig on the end of a good melee's sword, wondering why they can't cast any spells. It makes them really, really want to have some good muscle around to stop such an obvious tactic.
Suprise, we have balance!
Cheese goes both ways!
===Aelryinth
"anytime someone make a hostile attack action cast timestop" Thats not nebulous and it's perfectly within the rules. You charge, I timestop.
1) Contingency doesn't use 9th level spells.
2) I can shoot an arrow at you and your spell goes off. That means your Contingency goes off EVERY FIGHT YOU ARE IN. meaning it eats up your spell slots like mad putting it back up, and so it probably WON'T be in effect when I come calling.
So, like I said, nebulous, useless wording that somehow solves all problems.
So just becuase your build is meant to be effective within a certain range your combats will always start out within that range? As I said you are deaming whats easonable not the rules. This is the problem when someone trys to play both their posted build and the DM at the same time. You are schewing things.
I am makinig a build to be effective at something, yet suddenly he's supposed to be effective at everything? Stop fishing the double standard at me. I made my build for my goals, not yours.
And FYI, it's 'skewing' things. 'Eschew' means 'without' or 'leave'.
Wizards have far more spells than a fighter has feats and we have brought up less spells than the number of feats you have changed in the build. As for outlandish tactics, welcome to the CO board. hell go look at bombing the temple thread, we have a mage nuking a 10+ mile range for a couple thouand d6 damage at level 6.
The CO board also has Pun-Pun, which also will never see play. Wizards also have only so many spells, which he has to expend mighty fast, while the Fighter never runs out of his feats. Hence, balance.
Really so I am only replicating the fighter? gee here I thought I was replicating the barbarian, ranger, duskblade, or any other class with a full BAB or higher HP.
You are attempting the replicate the combat prowess of the local melee, of which the Fighter is well part, and you are being both selective and dismissively broad again. Kudos, two contradictions in one.
You not realizing that BAB and HP are not spacific to the fighter alone and claim them as class features does not fill me with the confidance in your ability period.
Spellcasting and caster level is not specific to X class alone and you claiming it as a class feature does not fill me with confidence in your ability, period.
Oh, wait. You're doing that contradiction of yourself again. So, being a Fighter means you DON"T have high HP and BAB? Wait, specific...wait, what? I'm sorry, what are you arguing here? That fighters don't have High HP and BAB as part of being a fighter, or that BAB and High HP are not part of other classes (which is irrelevant to the Fighter, specifically?)
Please get your arguments straight. And, ah, use a spellchecker (no offense, but it will make you come across MUCH better.)
===Aelryinth
I always like to lean back on two things.
1) Wildshaping is not nearly the threat on its own it seems to be, nor is the Animal Companion. At higher levels, they need buffing to the moon to be viable for the level.
Yeah, wildshaping into a flying 100' perfect creature with 15 reach, and 11 additional feats including spring attack it horrible.
And as for animal companions being useless, well, it must be nice to live in your own world.
2) Antimagic shell should be a a standard tactic for non-casters against casters. It's simply that powerful. But, no one really uses it, because of the huge 'death cheese' factor. I use it, openly and pretty blatantly. It's really only needed at higher levels, when the broken spells start to show up, and people crow about caster uberness.
AMF shuts them right up. It's so basic, and it makes them squirm. Casters have their place, and when they get uppity about it, that place is stickinig on the end of a good melee's sword, wondering why they can't cast any spells. It makes them really, really want to have some good muscle around to stop such an obvious tactic.
And the caster's place is to have a Celerity ready to screw all of your plans.
Fighter: I move up and use my antimagic torq!
Wizard: I use Celerity to interrupt the fighter's move with my standard action.
Fighter: *#&^!
And of course no caster ever chooses to get a high BAB and martial abilities. I'm mean it's not like there's a specific name for something so rare and unheard of. *coughgishcough*
Aw well, the joys of being ignored.
"anytime someone make a hostile attack action cast timestop" Thats not nebulous and it's perfectly within the rules. You charge, I timestop.
1) Contingency doesn't use 9th level spells.
2) I can shoot an arrow at you and your spell goes off. That means your Contingency goes off EVERY FIGHT YOU ARE IN. meaning it eats up your spell slots like mad putting it back up, and so it probably WON'T be in effect when I come calling.
So, like I said, nebulous, useless wording that somehow solves all problems.
1- Craft contingent spell feat or just switch to celerty to cast it.
2- Also means I win every fight I am in and unless you can somehow garuntee that it will be down your argument is flawed.[i]I am makinig a build to be effective at something, yet suddenly he's supposed to be effective at everything? Stop fishing the double standard at me. I made my build for my goals, not yours.
Just becuase it is your goal to be within a range doesn't mean that you will be in that range when the fight starts. The DM does not bow to your goals for combat.The CO board also has Pun-Pun, which also will never see play. Wizards also have only so many spells, which he has to expend mighty fast, while the Fighter never runs out of his feats. Hence, balance.
Except the wizard also has the ability to control combats per day to an extent which allows him to burn off spells with the knowladge that he can avoid conflict when the job is done for the rest of the day. Far from balanced.You are attempting the replicate the combat prowess of the local melee, of which the Fighter is well part, and you are being both selective and dismissively broad again. Kudos, two contradictions in one.
Spellcasting and caster level is not specific to X class alone and you claiming it as a class feature does not fill me with confidence in your ability, period.
Oh, wait. You're doing that contradiction of yourself again. So, being a Fighter means you DON"T have high HP and BAB? Wait, specific...wait, what? I'm sorry, what are you arguing here? That fighters don't have High HP and BAB as part of being a fighter, or that BAB and High HP are not part of other classes (which is irrelevant to the Fighter, specifically?)
Please get your arguments straight. And, ah, use a spellchecker (no offense, but it will make you come across MUCH better.)
===Aelryinth
I am not contradicting anything. Fighters have no class abilitys (the abilitys that show in the special colum of the table for the designated class) without taking class sub levels, they only have feats (and then only a few feats are restricted to fighters and a few others). BAB and HP are not class abilitys as all classes have them in varying amounts. They are values of a basic mechanic all characters share which the game requires for it's rules in combat and overall to function.
Please get your arguments straight. And, ah, use a spellchecker (no offense, but it will make you come across MUCH better.)
A little off topic, but IMO your strange multi-quotes are harder to read than his misspellings.
That said, I'm wondering what this guy does against a standard Sorcadin Gish (something like Pally 2/Sorc 4/SS 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8). My concern here is that the opponent in question also likes to fight at arms length (25' or 30' with thunderlance+enlarge) so he is going to be trying to stay out of your lockdown range anyway.
If you do get close enough to try locking him, you run into two more problems. First, what do you do if he's defensive built and has something like a 60+ AC. From what I saw in the first post, if he gets to 64 or 65 you can't hit him except on a 20, right? So problem here is that you can get all the AoOs you want....if you can't land them they won't do any good. Pierce magical protection helps...if you have the actions to use it.
I realize you are relying on AMF to negate a bunch of buffs, but it seems unlikely that you will be able to start an encounter by both moving up to the enemy and activating the AMF item. Even if you use a teleport (or even dim door) item to get close, that will take your standard action, meaning you wait till next turn to use AMF. Until then, this guy might be totally unhittable...allowing him to dim door away to make you chase him or something like that.
Anyway, the point is how do you overcome super high defenses in the first round of combat in order to get your lock set up on such an enemy?
Edit: Since you discuss part of this in your OP, I guess the real question is how exactly all the actions work out for you to be able to get within range of the caster, use PMP, activate a AMF item, and use the attack that gives you 2x damage on your AoOs.
(I apologize if you've already covered this in the thread...I admit I didn't read the entire thing)
Yeah, wildshaping into a flying 100' perfect creature with 15 reach, and 11 additional feats including spring attack it horrible.
Is there a feat or class feature that allows the more powerful elemental shapes early? Because the SRD says that a druid can wildshape into a Huge elemental beginning at lvl 20. Since the Lockdown build matures at 16...
Also, a Huge Air Elemental only has 8 feats (including Spring Attack). It's the Elder Air Elemental that has 11. Of course, you could always use shapechange to become one of those.
And the caster's place is to have a Celerity ready to screw all of your plans.
Fighter: I move up and use my antimagic torq!
Wizard: I use Celerity to interrupt the fighter's move with my standard action.
Fighter: *#&^!
Don't forget you need to have foresight up to use this tactic, since you can't cast celerity while flat-footed (assuming the fighter won initiative). Of course, if you're not flat-footed, there's no need to ready an action to cast celerity anyway, since it's an immediate action.
Of course, there's always this little tidbit I found in the GitP forums, which is also what Drakinar tried to point out, and what you might mean by having a celerity ready...
Contingency - celerity on the start of an encounter or some such thing.
Use the action to cast a maximized time stop (using that rod of maximize spell you keep on you)
You have 5 rounds of time stop. Take the daze for a round.
4 rounds to go, cast cloudkill over the enemies
3 turns to go, cast forcecage (solid) over the cloud kill area.
2 turns to go, Laugh. play with prestidigitation, or something. At this point the encounter should be over as soon as time stop ends. If there are enemies hidden elsewhere, you can trap another group.
1 Turn to go, insert buff spell here. Or more prestidigitation.
0 to go, game resumes.
Enemies eventually die off in the contained cloudkill.
Wizard wins.
Anyway, that's my $0.02. Carry on.
action to cast celerity anyway, since it's an immediate action.
Of course, there's always this little tidbit I found in the GitP forums, which is also what Drakinar tried to point out, and what you might mean by having a celerity ready...Contingency - celerity on the start of an encounter or some such thing.
Use the action to cast a maximized time stop (using that rod of maximize spell you keep on you)
You have 5 rounds of time stop. Take the daze for a round.
4 rounds to go, cast cloudkill over the enemies
3 turns to go, cast forcecage (solid) over the cloud kill area.
2 turns to go, Laugh. play with prestidigitation, or something. At this point the encounter should be over as soon as time stop ends. If there are enemies hidden elsewhere, you can trap another group.
1 Turn to go, insert buff spell here. Or more prestidigitation.
0 to go, game resumes.
Enemies eventually die off in the contained cloudkill.
Wizard wins.
Anyway, that's my $0.02. Carry on.
While yes that is the basic of what I was refering to I would use diffrent tactics than that.
round 1- spell like cloudkill or firewall or any other visable effect.
round 2- force cage/quickened via rod and plant a dimenshional anchor next to it
round 3- buff spell that makes you uneffected by dazing (can't remember it right now). so you don't loose actions after timestop
round 4- fly 90ft up and ready an action (if the cloud goes away cast teleport)
round 5 - game resumes
The only way out of the cloud and the force cage is to pop the AMF torc. When that happens it triggers my readied action and leaves you with depleted items, me at safe distance, and you screwed.
And AMF's arn't that big of a problem for casters that know how to deal with them. I see you in an AMF I will just quick conjure a wall of iron laying flat then teleport it over you and watch you go squish.
And AMF's arn't that big of a problem for casters that know how to deal with them. I see you in an AMF I will just quick conjure a wall of iron laying flat then teleport it over you and watch you go squish.
AMF has no visual display.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
Emphasis mine.
AMF has no visual display.
Emphasis mine.
We've been over this. it's not tough to realize someone is in an AMF. hell a single quick cast plinking spell alot of wizards throw off first thing to gauge opponents will tell you it right off. Or a hole in a wide area spell, or someone walking through areas that have been warded to prevent passage. If an effect simply vanishes casters are smart enough to figure out whats going on.
Aelryinth - First off, I want to say that I like the lockdown build a lot. I think it's inspiring that you took on the challenge of making a class that most people write off completely viable.
That said, I'm wondering what this guy does against a standard Sorcadin Gish (something like Pally 2/Sorc 4/SS 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8). My concern here is that the opponent in question also likes to fight at arms length (25' or 30' with thunderlance+enlarge) so he is going to be trying to stay out of your lockdown range anyway.
If you do get close enough to try locking him, you run into two more problems. First, what do you do if he's defensive built and has something like a 60+ AC. From what I saw in the first post, if he gets to 64 or 65 you can't hit him except on a 20, right? So problem here is that you can get all the AoOs you want....if you can't land them they won't do any good. Pierce magical protection helps...if you have the actions to use it.
I realize you are relying on AMF to negate a bunch of buffs, but it seems unlikely that you will be able to start an encounter by both moving up to the enemy and activating the AMF item. Even if you use a teleport (or even dim door) item to get close, that will take your standard action, meaning you wait till next turn to use AMF. Until then, this guy might be totally unhittable...allowing him to dim door away to make you chase him or something like that.
Anyway, the point is how do you overcome super high defenses in the first round of combat in order to get your lock set up on such an enemy?
Edit: Since you discuss part of this in your OP, I guess the real question is how exactly all the actions work out for you to be able to get within range of the caster, use PMP, activate a AMF item, and use the attack that gives you 2x damage on your AoOs.
(I apologize if you've already covered this in the thread...I admit I didn't read the entire thing)
That level of AC is generally only possible with magical spells buffing you. That's where Pierce Magical Protection comes in...ignores all of those, does normal damage, AND strips away every spell giving you an AC buff. So the AC isn't a problem.
When I made him, it was to maximize his TH so that his Overpowering Assault landed every time. He's a +45 TH at level 20 with Deft Opportunist.
Against another Reach Fighter, you just have to do one of two things.
A Gish, You might have to AMF and get him in the Field. Once he's in there, he's not getting out, and likely all his combat ability is tied up in his magic. He's stuck, doing no dmg comparable to yours, and probably going to die messily.
A Range fighter like you, you hope your Robilar's outlasts him, and/or rely on your party to take him down. Remember, he does have the resources to get out of range via porting (at highest levels) or via blinking, as needed.
===========
The Belt of Battle gets you extra actions.
YOu can activate it to grant you an extra Standard Action or Full Attack Action, or just a move action.
You don't need to PMP if you are going to AMF. AMF strips magic while people are in it. AMF should be your last option...the big reason it's there is to stop them from getting away from you via magic. IN a real melee combat against monsters (who are much less magic-reliant then you are), popping an AMF is generally not a good idea. It's a caster-only tactic.
Part of a standard action IS movement. So you can move up on someone and deliver a PMP. YOu then have the option of blowing the belt open for a full attack action and going into Assault mode, or activating the Torc, or what have you. Generally, it's going to be a tossup between Torc and PMP for the magic stuff.
PMP is nasty against buffing Gishes. Blink or tumble into range of them, and go to town on them. You can pretty much put the Assault up against any full attack action they bother to take in terms of damage. And of course, once they are locked down, they are not going to get away, especially if you have Occult Opportunist!
Just look at the tools you have and play with them.
===Aelryinth
We've been over this. it's not tough to realize someone is in an AMF. hell a single quick cast plinking spell alot of wizards throw off first thing to gauge opponents will tell you it right off. Or a hole in a wide area spell, or someone walking through areas that have been warded to prevent passage. If an effect simply vanishes casters are smart enough to figure out whats going on.
By which time, if the user of the AMF has any brains, it's too late for the wizard. Seriously, it's like you expect all brains to exit the people who use the tactic. It's effective if used correctly. It's not like they are going to stand around waving their arms at the mage shouting "Orb Me To Death From 300 Meters, Please!"
====Aelryinth
Is there a feat or class feature that allows the more powerful elemental shapes early? Because the SRD says that a druid can wildshape into a Huge elemental beginning at lvl 20. Since the Lockdown build matures at 16...
Also, a Huge Air Elemental only has 8 feats (including Spring Attack). It's the Elder Air Elemental that has 11. Of course, you could always use shapechange to become one of those.
Don't forget you need to have foresight up to use this tactic, since you can't cast celerity while flat-footed (assuming the fighter won initiative). Of course, if you're not flat-footed, there's no need to ready an action to cast celerity anyway, since it's an immediate action.
Of course, there's always this little tidbit I found in the GitP forums, which is also what Drakinar tried to point out, and what you might mean by having a celerity ready...
Anyway, that's my $0.02. Carry on.
Which is why, at level 20, everyone should have some form of teleport and dimension escape clause. I.e. I blink/teleport out fo the forcecage.
Wildshaping is also a Supernatural effect. It goes away inside an AMF.
The Druid alternative for an Elemental companion...hah, wow, that's digging for something that might be viable. At level 16, it might actually be useful. That reach is nice. Still not much good once the Lock is down, as attempting to move the druid out of the AMF is just going to trigger AoO's, he gets Stand Stilled, and you can't move him. If the elemental wants to attack, eh, let it. The druid is going to last a much shorter period of time then you are, at which point the elemental becomes a non-factor.
Other animal companions have the same problem. You're going to Robilar them to death if they dare to attack, and/or move away from them. If you have Power Attack, well, their AC sucks just like yours, it's quite possible to be smackiing them around for 80+ a hit if you want to...and you get one every time they swing at you.
==============
Celerity is one of those hugely abusable 'I win' Spells, mainly because it lets you get off the Three Cheeses (Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop). Which means, since it is 'I win', every serious, real character should be using items of celerity to guarantee themselves initiative, because without it, you die.
I don't have one on the Lockdown build for that reason. A cheap 1/day Celerity item could be done with his leftover build cash, at which point the tactic becomes less of an issue...he'd just have to rely on the rest of the party to do the followup. It's also a very high level technique if you are casting Time Stop with it, so it's a useless 'out' for most of the game, which means it can be safely ignored. Using it in a Duel is possible, but in a group situation? One round of being dazed can easily get you dead, or close to it. I just don't see many mages using it for anything other then a "Run and Hide" card if suprised.
===Aelryinth
1- Craft contingent spell feat or just switch to celerty to cast it.
2- Also means I win every fight I am in and unless you can somehow garuntee that it will be down your argument is flawed.
Just becuase it is your goal to be within a range doesn't mean that you will be in that range when the fight starts. The DM does not bow to your goals for combat.
Except the wizard also has the ability to control combats per day to an extent which allows him to burn off spells with the knowladge that he can avoid conflict when the job is done for the rest of the day. Far from balanced.
I am not contradicting anything. Fighters have no class abilitys (the abilitys that show in the special colum of the table for the designated class) without taking class sub levels, they only have feats (and then only a few feats are restricted to fighters and a few others). BAB and HP are not class abilitys as all classes have them in varying amounts. They are values of a basic mechanic all characters share which the game requires for it's rules in combat and overall to function.
The class ability of Fighters above and beyond the base chassis is their extra feats. However, all of these come into play when we are talking class balance. Comparing a melee to a caster without taking into account greater HP and BAB is insane. They are all part of the package.
The wizard controlling combats is contingent upon the situation allowing him that control, and giving him the time and convenience to do as he pleases. The game is not about endless duels. Sometimes you have to fight, sometimes you can't run, and having contingencies with nebulous trigger conditions hanging around that go off far too often for stupid things is not an argument. And I can't remember the last time I saw a serious adventuring build with Craft Contingent Spell, which, I believe, is another of those ultra-cheesy FR feats that most DM's on the board here wouldn't allow in play.
As for ranged combat, you are again contradicting yourself. The DM doesn't bow to YOUR goals either. I'm making a character viable at X range. He's good there. What does the DM have to do with it? Is he going to suddenly sitdown and in his campaign, all encounters start at 400 meters and end at 50 meters? If so, why play a melee at all? It's a melee character, is it really so very hard to believe tht he's designed to be best when in someone's face, and not sitting 300meters downwind and waiting to get socked by spells or pincushioned by arrows?
As for celerity cheese, that's addressed above. If Celerity wins all fights, I'll just let the cleric kill you, as its the person who gets the LAST initiative, most likely to be him, who wins with Celerity. Utterly strange. He'll probably take Devolved Initiative with his Time Domain, just to make sure he always goes last, and the spell goes off so he goes first.
===Aelryinth
vs casters: makes a whole bunch of assumptions and covers every hole with a hundred dollar bill
vs brutes (animal companions and such): really can't do enough DPR to stand toe to toe and survive
vs gishes: more assumptions, equipment reliance
DRAGON MATERIAL: c'mon man! That aint kosher.
So, who can it reliably succeed against? I don't understand where the power is. Mind explaining what competantly played enemy it can kill?
aelryinth, your fallacies are getting to me. I'm gunna stop trying to help you now.
Hey, that's good, stop trying to 'help' me with something I don't have, so you can keep dwelling on the oft-repeated fallacies you have. I'm down with that.
===Aelryinth
That level of AC is generally only possible with magical spells buffing you. That's where Pierce Magical Protection comes in...ignores all of those, does normal damage, AND strips away every spell giving you an AC buff. So the AC isn't a problem.
Assuming you get close enough to hit him with PMP. This is why I asked the questions in the order I did. What if he has up Anticipate Teleportation, 20' reach (40' enlarged?), and also uses thicket of blades/stand still?
Against another Reach Fighter, you just have to do one of two things.
A Gish, You might have to AMF and get him in the Field. Once he's in there, he's not getting out, and likely all his combat ability is tied up in his magic. He's stuck, doing no dmg comparable to yours, and probably going to die messily.
See above. The real issue here is getting in range to do anything to this character, AMF or otherwise.
A Range fighter like you, you hope your Robilar's outlasts him, and/or rely on your party to take him down. Remember, he does have the resources to get out of range via porting (at highest levels) or via blinking, as needed.
Robilar's only works if you are close enough to hit with your weapon.
===========
The Belt of Battle gets you extra actions.
YOu can activate it to grant you an extra Standard Action or Full Attack Action, or just a move action.
I know this is where the actions are coming from, I was just confused because it seemed like you were trying to move up, PMP, activate AMF, and use Overpowering Attack (or whatever it's called) all in the first round. I see from your comment below that you don't plan to both PMP and AMF though.
You don't need to PMP if you are going to AMF. AMF strips magic while people are in it. AMF should be your last option...the big reason it's there is to stop them from getting away from you via magic.
Fair enough, but in this case the issue is still getting close enough to do either. Until you PMP or get an AMF up (on him, not just yourself), you won't be able to hit him. Then again I guess that's a circular or moot point cause as soon as you can hit him PMP does its job (meaning I guess AC is useless [cept vs. ranged attacks] if this guy decides to use Stand Still on you).
Part of a standard action IS movement. So you can move up on someone and deliver a PMP. YOu then have the option of blowing the belt open for a full attack action and going into Assault mode, or activating the Torc, or what have you. Generally, it's going to be a tossup between Torc and PMP for the magic stuff.
Ok this makes sense, as long as the target is within 30 ft. to start (which is why I think some people have problems with the tactics you've laid out). If he's further away you need to use two move actions to get close to him and then belt of battle to get enough actions to do any one of the following: PMP, AMF, Assault.
PMP is nasty against buffing Gishes. Blink or tumble into range of them, and go to town on them. You can pretty much put the Assault up against any full attack action they bother to take in terms of damage. And of course, once they are locked down, they are not going to get away, especially if you have Occult Opportunist!
Just look at the tools you have and play with them.
===Aelryinth
Overall, point taken on PMP - I overlooked it when I first read your build (since I didn't think of magical AC boosters being a huge issue anyway), but it is very powerful against the type of enemy I specified. However, the million dollar question is still how you get within range to make the attack in the first place.
Hey, that's good, stop trying to 'help' me with something I don't have, so you can keep dwelling on the oft-repeated fallacies you have. I'm down with that.
===Aelryinth
What fallacies? You do realize that I'm one of the most logical people you will ever converse with, right? Accusing me of fallacies is akin to calling a cat dirty; while not impossible, damn close.
While yes that is the basic of what I was refering to I would use diffrent tactics than that.
round 1- spell like cloudkill or firewall or any other visable effect.
round 2- force cage/quickened via rod and plant a dimenshional anchor next to it
round 3- buff spell that makes you uneffected by dazing (can't remember it right now). so you don't loose actions after timestop
round 4- fly 90ft up and ready an action (if the cloud goes away cast teleport)
round 5 - game resumes
The only way out of the cloud and the force cage is to pop the AMF torc. When that happens it triggers my readied action and leaves you with depleted items, me at safe distance, and you screwed.
And AMF's arn't that big of a problem for casters that know how to deal with them. I see you in an AMF I will just quick conjure a wall of iron laying flat then teleport it over you and watch you go squish.
With the solid forcecage, it'd actually make me perfectly safe from you. Forcecages aren't brought down by AMF's, I believe. And you can't risk a cage vs solid because it'd be too easy to get out with something as mundane as gaseous form or a change self potion.
So, hardly a lock. The tactic is also dead useless against any party or party member who has had a Heroes Feast that day (and isnt' that assumed at level 20?) who can laugh at the Cloudkill's poison.
Again, if this is a common, killer tactic, there's tons of ways around it. Spellcombos should be overcome as routinely as melee combos at higher level.
So no, this is hardly a lock technique. It takes only a little bit of common sense to overcome it, not delving into books for the craziest spells and feats.
===Aelryinth
What fallacies? You do realize that I'm one of the most logical people you will ever converse with, right? Accusing me of fallacies is akin to calling a cat dirty; while not impossible, damn close.
LOL. Can't say I agree with that, Archer. Just do what you said and stop trying to 'help' me, and we'll both be happy.
==Aelryinth
Sorry but I should have been a bit more detailed with my question. I think part of the point of making a build like this has to be to show something unique it can do - otherwise it loses it's competitive edge. With the Sorcadin build I mentioned before, I should have asked what this guy could do compared to such a build that was also made for lockdown. In other words 1) How is this fighter any better and 2) If they fought how would he manage to beat said Sorcadin?
Assuming you get close enough to hit him with PMP. This is why I asked the questions in the order I did. What if he has up Anticipate Teleportation, 20' reach (40' enlarged?), and also uses thicket of blades/stand still?
See above. The real issue here is getting in range to do anything to this character, AMF or otherwise.
Robilar's only works if you are close enough to hit with your weapon.
===========
I know this is where the actions are coming from, I was just confused because it seemed like you were trying to move up, PMP, activate AMF, and use Overpowering Attack (or whatever it's called) all in the first round. I see from your comment below that you don't plan to both PMP and AMF though.
Fair enough, but in this case the issue is still getting close enough to do either. Until you PMP or get an AMF up (on him, not just yourself), you won't be able to hit him. Then again I guess that's a circular or moot point cause as soon as you can hit him PMP does its job (meaning I guess AC is useless [cept vs. ranged attacks] if this guy decides to use Stand Still on you).
Ok this makes sense, as long as the target is within 30 ft. to start (which is why I think some people have problems with the tactics you've laid out). If he's further away you need to use two move actions to get close to him and then belt of battle to get enough actions to do any one of the following: PMP, AMF, Assault.
Overall, point taken on PMP - I overlooked it when I first read your build (since I didn't think of magical AC boosters being a huge issue anyway), but it is very powerful against the type of enemy I specified. However, the million dollar question is still how you get within range to make the attack in the first place.
Getting close enough is a good question. I'd have to say...post a build! One of the things people like to do with stuff like this is throw out all sorts of possibilities. Then they try to make a viable build with the feats, especially at all levels of play, and it becomes MUCH harder...especially when the build comes mature! With a once/day thunderlance combo and paladin levels, you are already talking at least level 11 before you have a reach weapon.
One possibility is the Tower Shield option for cover (not that he carries one)
However, remember that if he wants to stay 30' away with this big glowing bar of energy in hand (which, I believe, would NOT enlarge with him...he'd still have a 20' range, possibly a 25'...Enlarge affects gear worn, and a thunderlance is a spell, not gear), he's making a fine target. manuver or use terrain to get his range down to 20 or less (no featureless plains in reality).
the best thing is, of course, to merely stay out of range until the thunderlance expires or the mage gets rid of it. Or, we start looking for ways to extend reach again (weapon effects, Iron Heart Stances, bracers, etc). reach is huge. I've never brought down reach. Someone who can outreach him is a big threat. It's why a straight archer build could be such a threat.
Once he IS in range, Lockdown does have the advantage. Between mage slayer, possibly Occult Opportunist, PMP, a possible Assault at 16+, he's going to out AoO the gish. Also note that AMF would prevent him from getting hit with a thunderlance (I think?). he's also going to beating around a gish inside an AMF like a red-headed stepchild.
The flip side of this is, whats the focus of the Sorcadin build? It's not going to be a Lockdown effect, because he doesn't have all the feats to generate AoO. So there has to be more to it.
Do you have enough spell slots to keep all those defenses/buffs up all day and make him a viable character? There's a big difference between an all-day melee build and a dueling build. Gishes do well, like all casters do, when they can Nova and walk away. But when you've used up your uber combo, or there's someone there to counter/dispel the key part of it, how good is the character?
The only thing 'extra' in Lock's build is the Enlarge effect, which is assumed routine for pretty much any melee at that level (really, he should be wearing a Reduce or Alter Self toy and just be permanently enlarged, or something)
I think a Sorcadin would be a fine character and perform well. Make up a build, spell selection, tactics usable multiple times a day, and see how he works! Also, make sure you work within the Elite Array stat limitations...I've found it has a big impact on a lot of PrC heavy builds when all the key stats suddenly aren't so favorable.
===Aelryinth
AMF has no visual display.
Emphasis mine.
worse, how's he going to teleport the wall of iron over me?
Worse, it has to be created either vertically resting on something or attached to something, you can't make it in midair.
Fun stuff like this is why I just shake my head at mage posters backing the mages are oOber view. Spells do a lot, but just not everything at once, you know?
===Aelryinth
Getting close enough is a good question. I'd have to say...post a build!
I think a Sorcadin would be a fine character and perform well. Make up a build, spell selection, tactics usable multiple times a day, and see how he works! Also, make sure you work within the Elite Array stat limitations...I've found it has a big impact on a lot of PrC heavy builds when all the key stats suddenly aren't so favorable.
===Aelryinth
Ok I'm gonna whip one up. I'm not sure I'm going to limit myself to elite array though. 25 PB is perfectly fair for this kind of debate IMO, but I'll see how much of a difference it makes...
Spells do a lot, but just not everything at once, you know?
I do know and I agree. Every spell has different uses.
Still curious about the fallacies...
I may be totally off my rocker here (and AFB), but what happens if a wild-shaping druid carries a wooden tower shield?
You never see it coming, since he's wild-shaped. It's made of wood (hopefully some fantastic non-sunderable wood). I don't think (somebody correct me here...) that it gives any penalty when wild-shaped. It's in the core. It's cheap.
And when the druid gets in the AFM, boom, no wildshape, shield appears. Druid moves away with shield, no AOO. Casts Dispel Magic (possibly quickened), no more AMF, wildshapes again and proceeds to eat foe.
Why wouldn't a druid do such a thing? It also protects him against Archer with AMF badger companion.
One strategy I've haven't heard much about is tower shield + druid.
I may be totally off my rocker here (and AFB), but what happens if a wild-shaping druid carries a wooden tower shield?
A normal tower shield? Since he has no proficiency the druid would be at -10 to attack. But he could have total cover.
A Wild tower shield would still give him a -10 to attack unless the druid has the proficiency, and since it is merged with the body, won't provide cover. Wild does not eliminates ACP or mobility penalties (confirmed by CustServ, but not mentioned in any faq or errata I know, at least yet). Remember the tower shield does not give full cover all the time, it does only if the character uses it to take cover.
If it is not Wild it could be used only by a druid with hands (dire ape shape, or similar). But there might be size problems just as...
If it is Animated but no Wild, then it won't work if the druid changes sizes (although a generous DM might still give the druid some AC bonus). But I think it could be used for full cover for the right-sized wildshaped druid carrying it, even if the druid has no hands.
worse, how's he going to teleport the wall of iron over me?
Worse, it has to be created either vertically resting on something or attached to something, you can't make it in midair.
Fun stuff like this is why I just shake my head at mage posters backing the mages are oOber view. Spells do a lot, but just not everything at once, you know?
===Aelryinth
conjure it flat on the ground then teleport object.
A normal tower shield? Since he has no proficiency the druid would be at -10 to attack. But he could have total cover.
A Wild tower shield would still give him a -10 to attack unless the druid has the proficiency, and since it is merged with the body, won't provide cover. Wild does not eliminates ACP or mobility penalties (confirmed by CustServ, but not mentioned in any faq or errata I know, at least yet). Remember the tower shield does not give full cover all the time, it does only if the character uses it to take cover.
If it is not Wild it could be used only by a druid with hands (dire ape shape, or similar). But there might be size problems just as...
If it is Animated but no Wild, then it won't work if the druid changes sizes (although a generous DM might still give the druid some AC bonus). But I think it could be used for full cover for the right-sized wildshaped druid carrying it, even if the druid has no hands.
I think the point was that the shield would be melded into the the wildshape, thus not causing any problems. It would only come into play if wildshape were to be dispelled or suppressed (such as from AMF), at which point the druid would be changed back to his usual form but would have a shield to cover him as he retreated from effect causing him problems.
Note I’m not condoning the “fighters suck” line of thought necessarily (I certainly don’t find myself playing them though), but I want to offer the following as an alternative to the lockdown build. The role is not a pure caster (the version I’ve written only has an 8th level spell, but adjustments can get it to 9th level spells if you like), but rather a crowd-control melee type. Basically try to think of thinks the original lockdown build can do and then ask if this guy can pull them off. Then ask yourself “what else can he do…?”
Illumian (Naenhoon)
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Knight 4
[u]Level Breakdown/feats taken[/u]
1: Human Paragon 1, Combat Casting
2: Paladin 1
3: Paladin 2, Combat Reflexes
4: Sorcerer 1
5: Sorcerer 2
6: Sorcerer 3, Extend Spell
7: Sorcerer 4
8: Spellsword 1
9: Abjurant Champion 1, Martial Study (Shield Block)
10: Human Paragon 2, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
11: Eldritch Knight 1, Stand Still
12: Abjurant Champion 2, Persistent Spell
13: Sacred Exorcist 1
14: Abjurant Champion 3
15: Human Paragon 3, Power Attack
16: Abjurant Champion 4
17: Abjurant Champion 5
18: Eldritch Knight 2, Open – Extra Spell [Sirine’s Grace] could be good
19: Eldritch Knight 3
20: Eldritch Knight 4
Yes I do realize playing through early levels would be rough. Dex is fine so be an archer or something. Not really relevant though since I'm not stressing viability of a build from 1-20 as much as I am post level 13.
[u]Abilities:[/u] (25 PB – Very close to Elite Array)
Base
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 16 (21 after level ups)
Final
STR 10
DEX 24 (+6 enhancement, +4 tome)
CON 22 (+6 enhancement, +4 tome)
INT 12
WIS 12 (+4 enhancement)
CHA 34 (+6 enhancement, +5 tome, +2 Human Paragon)
[u]Feats:[/u]
1: Combat Casting
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Extend Spell Persistent Spell
9: Martial Study
10 (HP Bonus): Martial Stance
11 (EK Bonus): Stand Still
12: Persistent Spell
15: Power Attack
18: ??? (Extra Spell [Sirine’s Grace]/Quicken Spell/Divine Might/Practiced Spellcaster/etc.)
[i]Comments[/i]
As expected – We’re tight on feats. The cluster of back and forth jumping from class to class from 9-12 is like that in order to get as many feats as quickly as possible. This particular setup is to try to make the build viable as early as possible. As is, it should be fully functional by level 13 (when Persistent Spell can be fueled by Turn Undead attempts via naenhoon sigil). It's important that we are able to do this - ya we may be starved for feats and thus relying on two bonuses from class levels, at least we can cram all of them in by 13 if we really try. The fighter can't be fully operational until 16 (specifically because he's a fighter mind you). You will also notice an open feat at 18.
An alternative to the current set up is to drop Human paragon for another 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist, but that would push back the whole feat chain one step (putting viability at 15th level) and you could even get rid of EK (losing another bonus feat) as well and just rely on Heroics to provide Power Attack. This pushes back the lockdown ability of the build till late, but should allow for a 9th level spell if you’re into that kind of thing (I don’t really think it’s worth it).
[u]Key Spells:[/u]
1st (5): Shield, Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Nerveskitter
2nd (5): Wraithstrike
3rd (4): Greater Mage Armor, GMW, Haste, Anticipate Teleportation
4th (4): Thunderlance, Orb of X, Dimensional Anchor
5th (4): Greater Blink, Teleport, Banishment
6th (3): Greater Dispel Magic
7th (2):
8th (1):
[i]Comments[/i]
I really only listed essential spells (and probably missed a few of those). While I’m not trying to bash the fighter lockdown build, I did intend for there to be a parallel here. That build has 6 open feats (the power currency of the fighter class), right? Well we have 14 open spells known. You can make this guy into whatever you want. Pick up some illusion spells, enchantment, or (god forbid) you can even become a blaster to fit the battlecaster theme.
Probably the best idea is just to search through tons of source books to find more great buffs to help you fill your role even better. I don’t ever build gishes so I’m sure I’m leaving out spells that are standard to these kinds of builds – sadly, I don’t have a large collection of spells in my head. Like I said though, this area is wide open.
One important thing to note is that you will be running two of your spells through persistent spell feat. The first will be thunderlance since you need your weapon, and the second could be a number of things – I went with greater blink for this guy although I’m sure there are better options. Oh ya, keep wraithstrike persistent too – but you just have to use an 8th level slot for that.
[i]Items[/i]
+6 CHA item and +5 Tome
+6 DEX item and +4 Tome
+6 CON item and +4 Tome
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (DR 314) – hey the fighter used dragon we can too!
+5 Resistance item
+5 Natural Armor
Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) x2
Belt of Battle – Because everyone and their brother has one
Sorcerer Staff from MIC (choose your flavor)
Various Metamagic Rods
1x Nightstick – I think it’s fair to say that using one nightstick to increase turns/day is totally legit. Stacking them is stinky cheese, but one is fine and should be standard for classes that use turn attempts a lot IMO.
Armor, Shield, Weapon? No thx…I’ll make mine out of eldritch coolness TYVM.
The point to stress here is how little it takes to equip this guy. Stat boosters are obviously the main items he needs, but even they are cheaper than the fighter lockdown build. After that, no messing around with stuff like teleport items, AMF items, mind blank (will saves should handle this). As with any character, you can always find a lot of utility stuff to add on, but the point still is that they don’t rely too heavily on the gear. Most any effect you want can be covered with a spell added to the list above.
[b]The Weapon:[/b]
Thunderlance from the spell in SC. A nice weapon dealing 3d6 base damage (20/x3 crit) and allowing you to add CHA to attack and damage. Most important, it give you 20 ft. reach and you threaten all of that space. Debatable whether or not you get any benefits by growing in size. This spell is made persistent.
[u]Game Stats[/u]
HP: 208
Initiative: +14 (with Nerveskitter and Belt of Battle) – means you have a good chance of going first.
Movement: 30 land for now, but grab a good alter self form for flight or just get an item (we hates items though!). In any case, mobility is not an issue if you use spells.
TH: 16 BAB, 12 CHA, +5 GMW, +2 Greater Blink
+35/+30/+25/+20
+19/+14/+9/+4 w/ full PA on.
Don’t kid yourself though, these are all touch attacks.
Damage: 3d6 + 2.5xCha + 32 PA + 5GMW = 77 average (Stand Still what?)
AC: 67 (10 base + 11 Greater Mage Armor + 9 Shield + 5 GMV (from cleric friend) + 13 NA [alter self into tren] + 12 CHA [Sirines Grace] + 7 Dex)
Note: Alter self can give another +10 NA bonus if you can find a way to use outsider forms.
Saves: Fort +35, Ref +28, Will +34
Not bad saves…plus if you feel the need, slap on a Ruin Delver’s fortune to add 12 to any of them.
Tactics
Normal Encounter
Like Aelryinth’s lockdown fighter, we will be focusing on getting within melee range (20’ for us usually) and controlling where and when our enemies move. In a standard battle haste yourself (item if you like) and dim door into a favorable position. Depending on what kind of gear you see your enemies wearing, PA up to your full BAB. Attacks of Opportunity will usually be used to keep enemies in place rather than to harm them (foes that you don’t mind reaching you are the exception). Belt of battle and all that jazz if you really think you need to.
Instead of relying on defensive sweep and/or robilar’s gambit like the fighter build, we will do most of our damage via full attack rounds (remember that 77 average dmg/hit?). We can do this because we don’t need to devote our full attack round to using overpowering assault. Oh ya – if we get tired of swinging the big lance thing, we also have a list of spells we can use. Perhaps throw up a Wall of Fire just for fun and use Stand Still to force your enemies to stand in it? I have a huge lightsaber and can slow roast my enemies in magical fire…beats a spiked chain hands down IMO.
Against a Caster
Initiative, positioning, blah, blah, blah…
At high levels we know this does have a lot to do with who wins initiative. If it’s you, get in range (dim door if needed) and either ready an attack if he casts a spell or cast dimensional anchor on him. Unlike the Fighter build, which can keep casters from teleporting off via mage slayer and occult opportunist to force super high concentration checks (or AMF), we have to use good old magic to keep these guys from running. The good news is it’s more reliable than forcing concentration checks and it doesn’t hinder us like AMF would.
The bad news is that we still don’t threaten him when he’s casting spells. No real problem though, as long as he’s in range and you have him dimensional locked, he isn’t going anywhere. The fight might be drawn out a bit, but I suggest just readying attack actions when he tries to cast spells. I doubt he’ll make the 77 concentration check too often.
Against the Fighter Lockdown
Initiative seems to be a big deal here and it looks like we have a slight advantage. If we win there are several options. If we delayed the build by taking out the extra feats, but got a 9th level spell instead, it wouldn’t be out of line to take disjunction (or just have it on a staff). Since we know fighter rely on items, take the items away and they go down. There are other caster “game-over” tricks that could be employed as well.
To make it a fair fight (silly idea really), we could actually fight though. We can have enlarge running from the Greater Enlarge spell which lasts hour/lvl, and honestly I think it would give you a melee attack range increase. Cast alter self to get a flying form (or get it some other way), and move into position 30 ft. above the fighter, then use belt of battle to do a full attack action. 308 average damage means he’s dead. If he isn’t though, just make sure you are 30 feet (or whatever your max melee range is) away. If he drinks a potion you get an AoO. If he tries to fly up to you, you get an AoO (use to Stand Still). If he tries to teleport near you, you can move out of the way via anticipate teleportation. Lastly, he can’t use AMF to approach you (although he could use it to get defense from your attacks) because if he activates it he can’t fly. If this happens just wait it out – all your important buffs last longer than his AMF.
If the fighter wins initiative, I’m not sure what happens. One thing to note is I currently have this written with Persistent Greater Blink up. In that case, I see no reason not to be on the ethereal plane all the time (sure you can't see more than 60, but you know your spot sucks anyway, so just stay within visible range of the party and take ques from them). Unless I just don't understand this spell, you can be on the ethereal plane and basically nothing the fighter does will have any affect on you. I could be wrong though...so I wrote up the following just in case.
If you are more than movement distance away, he will try to teleport, which will give you the advantage. If he can move up though, he will try that. Assuming AMF really is his last resort, he wont activate that, meaning you will be able to use your lance to AoO him as he moves in – giving him the old stand still. The only way I can see him getting past this is if he is only 30 ft. away and can activate the AMF item and then take a move action up to you (note no belt of battle in this case because of AMF). Your thunderlance won’t work through the AMF so he will be able to walk right up to you. This seems like a very unlikely scenario though, since the fighter would most likely try to get close enough to PMP rather than AMF.
If you are going to have a contingency active, I think “teleport me to X if I would ever be affected by an AMF” would be a pretty good one. It isn’t specific to fighting this enemy either….any caster would always be most afraid of AMFs. Pretty much any other circumstance can be dealt with.
Anyway, I don’t know how effective it was, but this was my attempt to build a gish that could fill the lockdown role better than a fighter. Feel free to tear it apart now.
Now, most caster types built for a duel don't take Martial Study:Shadow Stride, even though they have a feat free at 18. If anything, Lockdown has shown that using an AMF is a viable tactic, not investing in a counter-tactic is like not making your blade out of adamantine, and getting it sundered.
If you want to beat Lockdown and you are a caster, the answer is simple. Take Martial Study:Shadow Stride as your level 18 feat. Teleport away, then you have a standard action with Lockdown at your mercy. Dispel his AMF, make him pass a save or die, cast Time Stop, etc.
Good thinking. For just beating the lockdown itself (assuming AMF isn't up yet), you could even just grab the shadow hand item to get the maneuver. Of course this doesn't solve the AMF problem, but its a great escape mechanism that should interest any character.
Is there a feat or class feature that allows the more powerful elemental shapes early? Because the SRD says that a druid can wildshape into a Huge elemental beginning at lvl 20. Since the Lockdown build matures at 16...
At level 16, the druid been doing tons of things before hand, and even as a medium elemental is in essence immune to the tactics presented if he's flying, or earth gliding. Heck the bonuses to AC and stats alone is a absurd compared to what the fighter has spent for lesser bonuses.
Also, a Huge Air Elemental only has 8 feats (including Spring Attack). It's the Elder Air Elemental that has 11. Of course, you could always use shapechange to become one of those.
Yeah, was going off the top of my head on number of feats. :P I was pointing out the idiocy of saying wildshape was 'not that good' to paraphrase.
Consider, at level 16 the medium air elemental wildshaped druid. With nothing else he's at a +9 to initiative compared to the only +11 for the fighter build. And yet we're to assume that the fighter build is going to go first? Possible, but it's really a toss up and if the fighter doesn't go first, it's pretty much an auto-loss. And that's before any buff, items, or feats for the druid.
Don't forget you need to have foresight up to use this tactic, since you can't cast celerity while flat-footed (assuming the fighter won initiative). Of course, if you're not flat-footed, there's no need to ready an action to cast celerity anyway, since it's an immediate action.
Of course, there's always this little tidbit I found in the GitP forums, which is also what Drakinar tried to point out, and what you might mean by having a celerity ready...
Yeah, was referring to Contingencied Celerity, my mistake for not being clear.
Good thinking. For just beating the lockdown itself (assuming AMF isn't up yet), you could even just grab the shadow hand item to get the maneuver. Of course this doesn't solve the AMF problem, but its a great escape mechanism that should interest any character.
That maneuver is actually SU, so it doesn't work once you're in the field. If you want the absurdly simple way of getting out of the 'lock,' try smokesticks. Since they grant concealment, that means no AoO.
That maneuver is actually SU, so it doesn't work once you're in the field. If you want the absurdly simple way of getting out of the 'lock,' try smokesticks. Since they grant concealment, that means no AoO.
Read ToB. Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, and Shadow Jaunt are not Supernatural. They have the Teleportation descriptor, strangely, but they don't have anything indicating that they are Supernatural.
Read ToB. Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, and Shadow Jaunt are not Supernatural. They have the Teleportation descriptor, strangely, but they don't have anything indicating that they are Supernatural.
It's a miss-print. All three are officially SU, you can check with CustoServ if you don't believe me.
It's a miss-print. All three are officially SU, you can check with CustoServ if you don't believe me.
Proof with a link of some sort?
Unless a new ruling has been made in the last month and a half, I see no CustServ ruling about it that's been listed here.
Proof with a link of some sort?
Unless a new ruling has been made in the last month and a half, I see no CustServ ruling about it that's been listed here.
Last Updated: August 24th, 2006
The thread isn't even up to date with all the posts in it, let alone all the other rulings that have been given for over a year now. Again, if you don't believe me, a quick e-mail to CustoServ will confirm it.
Last Updated: August 24th, 2006
The thread isn't even up to date with all the posts in it, let alone all the other rulings that have been given for over a year now. Again, if you don't believe me, a quick e-mail to CustoServ will confirm it.
Oops, missed the year. :P
Still, if it is a misprint, I imagine that the CustServ response should be floating around somewhere (either you asked or someone else did and posted it), and there shouldn't be a need to ask again.
At level 16, the druid been doing tons of things before hand, and even as a medium elemental is in essence immune to the tactics presented if he's flying, or earth gliding. Heck the bonuses to AC and stats alone is a absurd compared to what the fighter has spent for lesser bonuses.
Yeah, was going off the top of my head on number of feats. :P I was pointing out the idiocy of saying wildshape was 'not that good' to paraphrase.
Consider, at level 16 the medium air elemental wildshaped druid. With nothing else he's at a +9 to initiative compared to the only +11 for the fighter build. And yet we're to assume that the fighter build is going to go first? Possible, but it's really a toss up and if the fighter doesn't go first, it's pretty much an auto-loss. And that's before any buff, items, or feats for the druid.
Yeah, was referring to Contingencied Celerity, my mistake for not being clear.
If a Druid is worried about initiative, he just Wildshapes (With Enhance Wildshape spell from SC) into a Dire Tortoise (Sandstorm).
If a Druid is worried about initiative, he just Wildshapes (With Enhance Wildshape spell from SC) into a Dire Tortoise (Sandstorm).
The elemental tends to be better as a walking/flying around form, which is why I was using it. It also doesn't take a spell, stays core and seems more reasonable from a 'how often will it happen' standpoint.
It's best to have both, of course, but if I had to choose, I'd choose Expert Tactician.
For instance, here's an Epic PC I'm playing who uses AOOs as well as Full Attacks:
Show
Knight 6 / Fighter 2 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Favored Soul 1 / Doomlord 10 / Witch Slayer 4
Lawful Neutral Male Human with Titan Bloodline (bought off)
Flaw: Shaky
Flaw: Honorable Challenge
Flaw Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw Feat: Weapon Focus (Spinning Sword)
Human Bonus: Tomb Tainted Soul
1st Level: Power Attack
2nd Level: Mounted Combat - Bonus Feat (Knight)
2nd Level: Font of Life - Bonus Feat (Titan)
3rd Level: Improved Buckler Defense
5th Level: Endurance - Bonus Feat (Knight)
6th Level: Steadfast Determination
7th Level: Improved Bull-Rush - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Improved Sunder - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Combat Reflexes - Bonus Feat (Titan)
9th Level: Shock Trooper
12th Level: Robilar's Gambit
12th Level: Improved Critical (Spinning Sword) - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
15th Level: Expert Tactician
16th Level: Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
18th Level: Awesome Smite
20th Level: Great Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
21st Level: Overwhelming Critical (Spinning Sword)
24th Level: Devastating Critical (Spinning Sword)
Spinning Sword stats:
1d6, 19-20x2, reach and threaten as a Spiked Chain, One handed, can not be wielded with two hands for x1.5 STR to damage (I'm using Uncanny Blow and a Large Weapon to ignore this), Finessible, Monk Weapon.
As you may notice, with a single level of Monk, Decisive Strike can be added.
And yes, he does have class features.
Knight 6 / Fighter 2 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Favored Soul 1 / Doomlord 10 / Witch Slayer 4
Lawful Neutral Male Human with Titan Bloodline (bought off)
Flaw: Shaky
Flaw: Honorable Challenge
Flaw Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw Feat: Weapon Focus (Spinning Sword)
Human Bonus: Tomb Tainted Soul
1st Level: Power Attack
2nd Level: Mounted Combat - Bonus Feat (Knight)
2nd Level: Font of Life - Bonus Feat (Titan)
3rd Level: Improved Buckler Defense
5th Level: Endurance - Bonus Feat (Knight)
6th Level: Steadfast Determination
7th Level: Improved Bull-Rush - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Improved Sunder - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Combat Reflexes - Bonus Feat (Titan)
9th Level: Shock Trooper
12th Level: Robilar's Gambit
12th Level: Improved Critical (Spinning Sword) - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
15th Level: Expert Tactician
16th Level: Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
18th Level: Awesome Smite
20th Level: Great Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
21st Level: Overwhelming Critical (Spinning Sword)
24th Level: Devastating Critical (Spinning Sword)
Spinning Sword stats:
1d6, 19-20x2, reach and threaten as a Spiked Chain, One handed, can not be wielded with two hands for x1.5 STR to damage (I'm using Uncanny Blow and a Large Weapon to ignore this), Finessible, Monk Weapon.
As you may notice, with a single level of Monk, Decisive Strike can be added.
And yes, he does have class features.
Q: Why don't you add Expert Tactician to your feats? It's better than Deft Opportunist after 2 strikes, it ups the damage, the bonuses last for your full-attack as well and it helps your party hit as well.
It's best to have both, of course, but if I had to choose, I'd choose Expert Tactician.
For instance, here's an Epic PC I'm playing who uses AOOs as well as Full Attacks:Show
Knight 6 / Fighter 2 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Favored Soul 1 / Doomlord 10 / Witch Slayer 4
Lawful Neutral Male Human with Titan Bloodline (bought off)
Flaw: Shaky
Flaw: Honorable Challenge
Flaw Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spinning Sword)
Flaw Feat: Weapon Focus (Spinning Sword)
Human Bonus: Tomb Tainted Soul
1st Level: Power Attack
2nd Level: Mounted Combat - Bonus Feat (Knight)
2nd Level: Font of Life - Bonus Feat (Titan)
3rd Level: Improved Buckler Defense
5th Level: Endurance - Bonus Feat (Knight)
6th Level: Steadfast Determination
7th Level: Improved Bull-Rush - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Improved Sunder - Bonus Feat (Fighter)
8th Level: Combat Reflexes - Bonus Feat (Titan)
9th Level: Shock Trooper
12th Level: Robilar's Gambit
12th Level: Improved Critical (Spinning Sword) - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
15th Level: Expert Tactician
16th Level: Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
18th Level: Awesome Smite
20th Level: Great Cleave - Bonus Feat (Doomlord)
21st Level: Overwhelming Critical (Spinning Sword)
24th Level: Devastating Critical (Spinning Sword)
Spinning Sword stats:
1d6, 19-20x2, reach and threaten as a Spiked Chain, One handed, can not be wielded with two hands for x1.5 STR to damage (I'm using Uncanny Blow and a Large Weapon to ignore this), Finessible, Monk Weapon.
As you may notice, with a single level of Monk, Decisive Strike can be added.
And yes, he does have class features.
Proof with a link of some sort?
Unless a new ruling has been made in the last month and a half, I see no CustServ ruling about it that's been listed here.
aLSO NOTE that if you use a magic item to get the feat, its non-magical inside the AMF, anyways. I think this got mentioned a few pages back as a tactic, and it didn't work. Kinda like the Tower Shield toting druid...which is a nice idea.
==Aelryinth
aLSO NOTE that if you use a magic item to get the feat, its non-magical inside the AMF, anyways. I think this got mentioned a few pages back as a tactic, and it didn't work. Kinda like the Tower Shield toting druid...which is a nice idea.
==Aelryinth
I actually came to the same conclusion equiping a PC. Decided to pass.
Reading this thread with the mental equivilant of watching a slow speed chase while eating popcorn.
The following build was born from the discussion on Aelryinth’s lockdown fighter build thread. In my opinion, part of the challenge that Aelrynth took on by making that character was to show how a fighter can offer something unique in a build that can’t be replicated by another class. If someone else can accomplish the same thing earlier and better – especially a Spellcaster who can also fill up on other spells for versatility outside of this niche – then we are back to the start of the debate (namely “fighters suck”).
Note I’m not condoning the “fighters suck” line of thought necessarily (I certainly don’t find myself playing them though), but I want to offer the following as an alternative to the lockdown build. The role is not a pure caster (the version I’ve written only has an 8th level spell, but adjustments can get it to 9th level spells if you like), but rather a crowd-control melee type. Basically try to think of thinks the original lockdown build can do and then ask if this guy can pull them off. Then ask yourself “what else can he do…?”
Illumian (Naenhoon)
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Knight 4
Damn! 4 PrestigeClasses, and a Paragon class!
[u]Level Breakdown/feats taken[/u]
1: Human Paragon 1, Combat Casting
2: Paladin 1
3: Paladin 2, Combat Reflexes
4: Sorcerer 1
5: Sorcerer 2
6: Sorcerer 3, Extend Spell
7: Sorcerer 4
8: Spellsword 1
9: Abjurant Champion 1, Martial Study (Shield Block)
10: Human Paragon 2, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
11: Eldritch Knight 1, Stand Still
12: Abjurant Champion 2, Persistent Spell
13: Sacred Exorcist 1
14: Abjurant Champion 3
15: Human Paragon 3, Power Attack
16: Abjurant Champion 4
17: Abjurant Champion 5
18: Eldritch Knight 2, Open – Extra Spell [Sirine’s Grace] could be good
19: Eldritch Knight 3
20: Eldritch Knight 4
I'm not seeing DMM:Persistent anywhere in this build. Did you miss it? Otherwise, you aren't going to get your first Persistent feat until you can cast level 7 spells, which is at...um, level 17 or so?
And I'll ask, since I don't have reqs for all the PrC's noted...do you have all the feats needed to do this? I would also suggest that you go with a base race, instead of a special race, to remove racial tendencies/strengths from the mix. Is why Lockdown is Generic Human with Able Learner.
Yes I do realize playing through early levels would be rough. Dex is fine so be an archer or something. Not really relevant though since I'm not stressing viability of a build from 1-20 as much as I am post level 13.
[u]Abilities:[/u] (25 PB – Very close to Elite Array)
Base
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 16 (21 after level ups)
I always use Elite Array. makes for more solid comparisons.
Final
STR 10
DEX 24 (+6 enhancement, +4 tome)
CON 22 (+6 enhancement, +4 tome)
INT 12
WIS 12 (+4 enhancement)
CHA 34 (+6 enhancement, +5 tome, +2 Human Paragon)
[u]Feats:[/u]
1: Combat Casting
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Extend Spell
9: Martial Study
10 (HP Bonus): Martial Stance
11 (EK Bonus): Stand Still
12: Persistent Spell
15: Power Attack
18: ??? (Extra Spell [Sirine’s Grace]/Quicken Spell/Divine Might/Practiced Spellcaster/etc.)
Persistent spell DMM?
[i]Comments[/i]
As expected – We’re tight on feats. The cluster of back and forth jumping from class to class from 9-12 is like that in order to get as many feats as quickly as possible. This particular setup is to try to make the build viable as early as possible. As is, it should be fully functional by level 13 (when Persistent Spell can be fueled by Turn Undead attempts via naenhoon sigil). It's important that we are able to do this - ya we may be starved for feats and thus relying on two bonuses from class levels, at least we can cram all of them in by 13 if we really try. The fighter can't be fully operational until 16 (specifically because he's a fighter mind you). You will also notice an open feat at 18.
Ah, now you are relying on the race, not the build.
An alternative to the current set up is to drop Human paragon for another 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist, but that would push back the whole feat chain one step (putting viability at 15th level) and you could even get rid of EK (losing another bonus feat) as well and just rely on Heroics to provide Power Attack. This pushes back the lockdown ability of the build till late, but should allow for a 9th level spell if you’re into that kind of thing (I don’t really think it’s worth it).
[u]Key Spells:[/u]
1st (5): Shield, Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Nerveskitter
2nd (5): Wraithstrike
3rd (4): Greater Mage Armor, GMW, Haste, Anticipate Teleportation
4th (4): Thunderlance, Orb of X, Dimensional Anchor
5th (4): Greater Blink, Teleport, Banishment
6th (3): Greater Dispel Magic
7th (2):
8th (1):
Comments: Ah, please don't use Wraithstrike. Even here on CharOpt, it's considered a broken spell, especially since you can persist it. GMArmor doesn't stack with Abj Champion (although it should).
[i]Comments[/i]
I really only listed essential spells (and probably missed a few of those). While I’m not trying to bash the fighter lockdown build, I did intend for there to be a parallel here. That build has 6 open feats (the power currency of the fighter class), right? Well we have 14 open spells known. You can make this guy into whatever you want. Pick up some illusion spells, enchantment, or (god forbid) you can even become a blaster to fit the battlecaster theme.
Probably the best idea is just to search through tons of source books to find more great buffs to help you fill your role even better. I don’t ever build gishes so I’m sure I’m leaving out spells that are standard to these kinds of builds – sadly, I don’t have a large collection of spells in my head. Like I said though, this area is wide open.
One important thing to note is that you will be running two of your spells through persistent spell feat. The first will be thunderlance since you need your weapon, and the second could be a number of things – I went with greater blink for this guy although I’m sure there are better options. Oh ya, keep wraithstrike persistent too – but you just have to use an 8th level slot for that.
[i]Items[/i]
+6 CHA item and +5 Tome
+6 DEX item and +4 Tome
+6 CON item and +4 Tome
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (DR 314) – hey the fighter used dragon we can too!
+5 Resistance item
+5 Natural Armor
Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) x2
Belt of Battle – Because everyone and their brother has one
Sorcerer Staff from MIC (choose your flavor)
Various Metamagic Rods
1x Nightstick – I think it’s fair to say that using one nightstick to increase turns/day is totally legit. Stacking them is stinky cheese, but one is fine and should be standard for classes that use turn attempts a lot IMO.
Armor, Shield, Weapon? No thx…I’ll make mine out of eldritch coolness TYVM.
I'll leave the gold value calculating to Previn, as he's better at it, but I know that the Inherent stat buffs are killer to gold. Not sure what the Gauntlets do (the Dragon feat I mention is an option, not part of the core build!)
The point to stress here is how little it takes to equip this guy. Stat boosters are obviously the main items he needs, but even they are cheaper than the fighter lockdown build. After that, no messing around with stuff like teleport items, AMF items, mind blank (will saves should handle this). As with any character, you can always find a lot of utility stuff to add on, but the point still is that they don’t rely too heavily on the gear. Most any effect you want can be covered with a spell added to the list above.
[b]The Weapon:[/b]
Thunderlance from the spell in SC. A nice weapon dealing 3d6 base damage (20/x3 crit) and allowing you to add CHA to attack and damage. Most important, it give you 20 ft. reach and you threaten all of that space. Debatable whether or not you get any benefits by growing in size. This spell is made persistent.
This is a spell, however, not an actual weapon. I don't think you can enchant it, just like you can't enchant a Mordenkainen's sword or a spiritual hammer or a flame blade.
[u]Game Stats[/u]
HP: 208
Initiative: +14 (with Nerveskitter and Belt of Battle) – means you have a good chance of going first.
Init is very important. nerveskitter is a responsive spell, right? And level one? So easy to acquire and sub for a fighter. 1-2k item.
Movement: 30 land for now, but grab a good alter self form for flight or just get an item (we hates items though!). In any case, mobility is not an issue if you use spells.
Ahg, shapechanging cheese
TH: 16 BAB, 12 CHA, +5 GMW, +2 Greater Blink
+35/+30/+25/+20
+19/+14/+9/+4 w/ full PA on.
I don't see Power Attack anywhere in the build? Using Heroics by default? Are you exceeding your spells known?
Don’t kid yourself though, these are all touch attacks.
Wraithstrike cheese is something I'd never base a build on. Thunderlance alone might be considered broken if persistent, although the idea of having a weapon always reaching out 20' in all directions all day is pretty damn funny.
Only if your DM lets you get away with Wraithstrike, especially all day. I have a real problem with that...I don't think most DM's or players would do that, because then they'd find the tactic used on them. It's TOO strong a combo to exist. Everyone would use it.
Damage: 3d6 + 2.5xCha + 32 PA + 5GMW = 77 average (Stand Still what?)
AC: 67 (10 base + 11 Greater Mage Armor + 9 Shield + 5 GMV (from cleric friend) + 13 NA [alter self into tren] + 12 CHA [Sirines Grace] + 7 Dex)
Note: Alter self can give another +10 NA bonus if you can find a way to use outsider forms.
GMV should be out. If you can rely on other party members then Lockdown can do the same and save himself about 200k in gold. Likewise, alter self/polymorph cheese is not a good thing, as you are basically telling me to go buy some potions or x/day items to do the same things. I tried hard to stay away from cheesy items, esp in the poly chain.
GMA is +6. THE AC bonus doesn't stack...it's not an Abjuration spell. You'd have to use Greater Luminous Armor, which restricts you to good alignment, and forces you to expend a Restore spell on yourself to get back str loss.
Saves: Fort +35, Ref +28, Will +34
Not bad saves…plus if you feel the need, slap on a Ruin Delver’s fortune to add 12 to any of them.
Very nice saves. Gotta love being a paladin. Note that Lockdown also doesn't have an alignment restriction, but I love paladins anyway.
Tactics
Normal Encounter
Like Aelryinth’s lockdown fighter, we will be focusing on getting within melee range (20’ for us usually) and controlling where and when our enemies move. In a standard battle haste yourself (item if you like) and dim door into a favorable position. Depending on what kind of gear you see your enemies wearing, PA up to your full BAB. Attacks of Opportunity will usually be used to keep enemies in place rather than to harm them (foes that you don’t mind reaching you are the exception). Belt of battle and all that jazz if you really think you need to.
No PA means at least a round buffing. Dim Door doesn't allow you to attack after you DD, but teleport does.
Instead of relying on defensive sweep and/or robilar’s gambit like the fighter build, we will do most of our damage via full attack rounds (remember that 77 average dmg/hit?). We can do this because we don’t need to devote our full attack round to using overpowering assault. Oh ya – if we get tired of swinging the big lance thing, we also have a list of spells we can use. Perhaps throw up a Wall of Fire just for fun and use Stand Still to force your enemies to stand in it? I have a huge lightsaber and can slow roast my enemies in magical fire…beats a spiked chain hands down IMO.
Again, rerun this without the Wriathstrike so it'll be useful in all campaigns. I also have to note something. Wouldn't alter self get rid of your natural stats and replace them? And your illumian abilities?
Against a Caster
Initiative, positioning, blah, blah, blah…
At high levels we know this does have a lot to do with who wins initiative. If it’s you, get in range (dim door if needed) and either ready an attack if he casts a spell or cast dimensional anchor on him. Unlike the Fighter build, which can keep casters from teleporting off via mage slayer and occult opportunist to force super high concentration checks (or AMF), we have to use good old magic to keep these guys from running. The good news is it’s more reliable than forcing concentration checks and it doesn’t hinder us like AMF would.
The bad news is that we still don’t threaten him when he’s casting spells. No real problem though, as long as he’s in range and you have him dimensional locked, he isn’t going anywhere. The fight might be drawn out a bit, but I suggest just readying attack actions when he tries to cast spells. I doubt he’ll make the 77 concentration check too often.
that's where the quickened spells and things like gaseous form and the like come in...or simply putting up a wall between the two of you. You can't let them get the spell off...it's simply too dangerous.
Against the Fighter Lockdown
Initiative seems to be a big deal here and it looks like we have a slight advantage. If we win there are several options. If we delayed the build by taking out the extra feats, but got a 9th level spell instead, it wouldn’t be out of line to take disjunction (or just have it on a staff). Since we know fighter rely on items, take the items away and they go down. There are other caster “game-over” tricks that could be employed as well.
Have to get the MDJ off, yah. Init is the key! But you can't cast that close to him, and it's not in your level 20 build.
To make it a fair fight (silly idea really), we could actually fight though. We can have enlarge running from the Greater Enlarge spell which lasts hour/lvl, and honestly I think it would give you a melee attack range increase. Cast alter self to get a flying form (or get it some other way), and move into position 30 ft. above the fighter, then use belt of battle to do a full attack action. 308 average damage means he’s dead. If he isn’t though, just make sure you are 30 feet (or whatever your max melee range is) away. If he drinks a potion you get an AoO. If he tries to fly up to you, you get an AoO (use to Stand Still). If he tries to teleport near you, you can move out of the way via anticipate teleportation. Lastly, he can’t use AMF to approach you (although he could use it to get defense from your attacks) because if he activates it he can’t fly. If this happens just wait it out – all your important buffs last longer than his AMF.
The extra reach is the winner. Again, not sure on the 30', I don't think bars of energy enlarge with you.
If the fighter wins initiative, I’m not sure what happens. One thing to note is I currently have this written with Persistent Greater Blink up. In that case, I see no reason not to be on the ethereal plane all the time (sure you can't see more than 60, but you know your spot sucks anyway, so just stay within visible range of the party and take ques from them). Unless I just don't understand this spell, you can be on the ethereal plane and basically nothing the fighter does will have any affect on you. I could be wrong though...so I wrote up the following just in case.
If you are more than movement distance away, he will try to teleport, which will give you the advantage. If he can move up though, he will try that. Assuming AMF really is his last resort, he wont activate that, meaning you will be able to use your lance to AoO him as he moves in – giving him the old stand still. The only way I can see him getting past this is if he is only 30 ft. away and can activate the AMF item and then take a move action up to you (note no belt of battle in this case because of AMF). Your thunderlance won’t work through the AMF so he will be able to walk right up to you. This seems like a very unlikely scenario though, since the fighter would most likely try to get close enough to PMP rather than AMF.
Actually, since you are waving around the big lightsaber, he might have no choice BUT to use it to get close to you. Especially if you lock him once. If you do that, he's DeFINITELY within a move of you. Just has to make sure you aren't in the air and out of reach (thus terrain becomes a factor).
If you are going to have a contingency active, I think “teleport me to X if I would ever be affected by an AMF” would be a pretty good one. It isn’t specific to fighting this enemy either….any caster would always be most afraid of AMFs. Pretty much any other circumstance can be dealt with.
Given the infrequency of AMF's and how annoying this might be if you were about to walk into a permanent placed AMF, I think the odds of having this up all the time wouldn't be that great. For a one on one duel against Lockdown, it is of course an excellent wording.
Unless you are really truly thinking that your DM is going to get let you get away with all your attacks being touch attacks, I'll point out that Lockdown has a pretty good AC, and power attacking on full probably isn't going to hit him.
Anyway, I don’t know how effective it was, but this was my attempt to build a gish that could fill the lockdown role better than a fighter. Feel free to tear it apart now.
My big problems are the reliance on alter self and persistent wraithstike. Your build doesn't have a lot of AoO generators except for the Thicket, which means you are only doing dmg with full attack sequences.
it also doesn't shut down spellcasters unless you ready actions, which shafts your damage potential. One of the key things on Lockdown at high levels is he can shut them down AND do dmg to them...and get multiple AoO's.
The way this is set up, it'd do better as an uber charger build. Use your motility to get in close and deal full attacks and kill dragons in one round with the cheese. Or the dragon turns around and wipes your party with his own persistent wraithstrike and 40 points of Power Attack. Ehhhhhh, ouch. Broken level one spells are bad for the game and build basing.
You also point out how hard this would be to play before level 13. With no DMM: Persistent, you can't use that trick until you can cast level 7 spells...that's level 16 before you really have the all day buffs you want.
I also don't like your reliance on all them spells which can be stripped from you so easily, unlike items. He's also really fragile inside an AMF if someone pops a Dimensional Anchor, or he's in a Forbiddance or something.
Gold, I'll let Previn calculate, he's better at it.
I recommend reposting it as generic race, removing race from the equation entirely. Use the Elite Array, not a point buy...this puts everything on equal footing. Avoid the known cheese/broken spells (I was pleased to see you didn't default to Celerity to 'always win' initiative.)
It looks like a fun, mobile fighting build. I'm not sure if you can meet the reqs with your spells known (a sorc, esp, should post at least the open slots at all levels). I think he and his lightsaber (he doesn't even get that til level 11, and the campaign being half over)would be well known for tactics, and he'd be eating a lot of dispels and slashing dispels...but that's just me.
And awesome saves, of course. Not sure what Sirine's Grace does, presuming a save bonus doubling up on Cha again.
==Aelryinth
My problem with lockdown:
vs casters: makes a whole bunch of assumptions and covers every hole with a hundred dollar bill
vs brutes (animal companions and such): really can't do enough DPR to stand toe to toe and survive
vs gishes: more assumptions, equipment reliance
DRAGON MATERIAL: c'mon man! That aint kosher.
So, who can it reliably succeed against? I don't understand where the power is. Mind explaining what competantly played enemy it can kill?
Missed this one.
Vs. Casters: Has a really, really good chance of Locking down any caster who hasn't bent themselves over backwards to try to avoid someone built like him. Casters contend against common tactics. The tactics Lockdown uses are pretty comprehensive. He's made to be playable against an enemy mage. can he deal with everything all the time? No...but he can deal with most of it just about all the time.
Vs Brutes: Stand Still, Robilar's and Overwhelming Assault add up to Hellacious damage...the more something attacks him, the faster he kills it. In an AMF he'll destroy an Animal Companion. Outside it, he'll destroy it even faster.
Vs. Gishes: More use of tactics, and pitting cast spells against equipment, which means dispellable stuff against non-dispellable stuff. This is as much a flavor issue as a play issue. Even losing 1/3 of your combat buffs can cripple a Gish who then has to spend time getting them back in place...and means in an AMF, they tend to really suck. A good Gish has to come into combat with him prebuffed, knowing he's going to lose any AC boosting magic, and unable to cast spells while threatened by Lockdown...he'd best have some good tricks!
So..eh!
===aelryinth
===Aerlyinth
I'm not seeing DMM:Persistent anywhere in this build. Did you miss it? Otherwise, you aren't going to get your first Persistent feat until you can cast level 7 spells, which is at...um, level 17 or so?
DMM Persistent doesn't work on arcane spells. The Illumian racial trait does however - allowing me to burn turn attempts to fuel metamagic feats. Hence me being illumian - and I don't really see why an optimization exercise should require me to be a "standard" race.
And I'll ask, since I don't have reqs for all the PrC's noted...do you have all the feats needed to do this? I would also suggest that you go with a base race, instead of a special race, to remove racial tendencies/strengths from the mix. Is why Lockdown is Generic Human with Able Learner.
Ya it's all kosher. Or at least seemed that way when I checked it a few times.
I always use Elite Array. makes for more solid comparisons.
That's not true - it makes for more solid comparisons for builds that rely on similar stat distribution. For real comparisons with optimization, PB is more fair. Elite array is a 25 PB, so using 25 PB should be perfectly fine.
Persistent spell DMM?
See above - the illumian trait covers this.
Ah, now you are relying on the race, not the build.
Wait, race is not part of a build? That's something new.
Honestly though, you should no better than to say that when so many people have come back at you with empty claims of "you are too item dependent." That's part of a character - no more, no less. Accusing me of relying on race rather than build is the same thing. The fact is its a whole package.
Ah, please don't use Wraithstrike. Even here on CharOpt, it's considered a broken spell, especially since you can persist it. GMArmor doesn't stack with Abj Champion (although it should).
I can't use spells because they are good? Thicket of Blades is arguably broken too...no one is complaining about that.
As for mage armor...wow, I didn't even notice it was a conjuration spell rather than abjuration. It's pretty dumb for them to list mage armor in the abjurant champion's Abjurant Armor ability then.
I'll leave the gold value calculating to Previn, as he's better at it, but I know that the Inherent stat buffs are killer to gold. Not sure what the Gauntlets do (the Dragon feat I mention is an option, not part of the core build!)
The point was that I'm not even close as far as gold limit goes.
This is a spell, however, not an actual weapon. I don't think you can enchant it, just like you can't enchant a Mordenkainen's sword or a spiritual hammer or a flame blade.
I think this point is debatable. Maybe it would help if you could point me to the rule on not being able to GMW Mordenkainen's Sword.
Init is very important. nerveskitter is a responsive spell, right? And level one? So easy to acquire and sub for a fighter. 1-2k item.
Well this is how a lot of these kinds of debates go....I can do that, if you can do this...yada, yada, yada.
As you note later, I didn't rely on the cheese that always allows me to go first, but if you can nab and spells you want and put them in items, maybe I should have?
In any case it doesn't matter all that much, as we saw in the tactics section.
Ahg, shapechanging cheese
Wait, using alter self to get a flying form is cheese? Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm so far under budget it's not funny...I could just rely on an item for this if I want. The point is that I don't need to since I have class abilities that are good.
don't see Power Attack anywhere in the build? Using Heroics by default? Are you exceeding your spells known?
PA is right there in the build man - level 15 feat to be exact. Exceeding the spells know? Read the comments under spell selection - I have over a dozen spells known left to choose, which was important because that allows me a lot more versatility than the left over feats of the fighter.
Wraithstrike cheese is something I'd never base a build on. Thunderlance alone might be considered broken if persistent, although the idea of having a weapon always reaching out 20' in all directions all day is pretty damn funny.
And someone who faces the lockdown build could make the same "cheese" argument about thicket of blades and even PMP. Even if wraithstrike isn't persistent, it is a swift action cast and this guy has boatloads of spells to power it from one encounter to the next, so w/e.
Only if your DM lets you get away with Wraithstrike, especially all day. I have a real problem with that...I don't think most DM's or players would do that, because then they'd find the tactic used on them. It's TOO strong a combo to exist. Everyone would use it.
Maybe, maybe not. It's an arcane spell, so I don't think every caster would be using it. Most of them I see don't get too geeked about running up and slapping people in the face.
GMV should be out. If you can rely on other party members then Lockdown can do the same and save himself about 200k in gold. Likewise, alter self/polymorph cheese is not a good thing, as you are basically telling me to go buy some potions or x/day items to do the same things. I tried hard to stay away from cheesy items, esp in the poly chain.
Call me crazy, but I feel like there were more than a couple references in your OP about what the other party members are doing.
Either way it isn't a big deal (as I realized after fretting over a high AC for a long time). Take off 8 points from his AC (-5 GMV and -3 replacing G mage armor with bracers) and he is still at a ridiculous AC. More importantly, it usually doesn't matter...no one gets close enough to hit him. And if the lockdown fighter hits him, none of it really counts anyway - PMP kills it all. Bottom line, we aren't really relying on AC anyway, it's just nice to have if we are out of AoOs, facing archers, etc.
GMA is +6. THE AC bonus doesn't stack...it's not an Abjuration spell. You'd have to use Greater Luminous Armor, which restricts you to good alignment, and forces you to expend a Restore spell on yourself to get back str loss.
That works too I guess, but we can just go without honestly. (For what it's worth though, being forced to be good isn't a big deal for a pally.
)Very nice saves. Gotta love being a paladin. Note that Lockdown also doesn't have an alignment restriction, but I love paladins anyway.
And pallies can get away with other alignments if you really want to via UA.
No PA means at least a round buffing. Dim Door doesn't allow you to attack after you DD, but teleport does.
PA is in there, we don't need heroics for it. I always forget about dim door preventing other actions, but ya teleport is fine (we have room for it).
Again, rerun this without the Wriathstrike so it'll be useful in all campaigns. I also have to note something. Wouldn't alter self get rid of your natural stats and replace them? And your illumian abilities?
Again...I don't see why I have to give things up, but I can't make you do the same. What if I start saying AMF items are broken? The "usable in all campaigns" rhetoric isn't going to help a fighter who relies on so many custom items.
Again...alter self is not crucial here. Nix it if you want and the build works just as well, except the super buffed archer might hit us once in a while.
that's where the quickened spells and things like gaseous form and the like come in...or simply putting up a wall between the two of you. You can't let them get the spell off...it's simply too dangerous.
To be fair, the fighter relies on unofficial material to prevent swift casting in the first place, so if you want to play by the rules you have the same problem. Moreover, the build has an open feat at 18 - grab Occult Opportunist if you want and you can threaten the same swift actions or whatever.
If this guy gets to make the same assumptions as the fighter though (winning initiative being the key one) none of this really matters though - he'll have the caster locked down and/dead no problem.
Have to get the MDJ off, yah. Init is the key! But you can't cast that close to him, and it's not in your level 20 build.
Of course initiative is at these levels, why do you think everyone else has just assumed that the wizards will use their resources first and foremost to be sure they get the first action in combat?
Can't cast that close? I can cast from 75 feet away...so not sure what you mean.
The extra reach is the winner. Again, not sure on the 30', I don't think bars of energy enlarge with you.
Ya and again I agree with you that this point is debatable. Someone arguing it works could take the following line of logic:
...you create a deadly lance of force...
Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons.
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach...
This effect give you a natural reach of 20 feet.
Call it twisted, but there is at least a reading of the rules that supports this. If anything the options seem to be 40' if the rules work, or 20' if they don't. I'm going to assume 40' works unless I get a real solid argument why it shouldn't.
Actually, since you are waving around the big lightsaber, he might have no choice BUT to use it to get close to you. Especially if you lock him once. If you do that, he's DeFINITELY within a move of you. Just has to make sure you aren't in the air and out of reach (thus terrain becomes a factor).
1) He isn't waving around a huge lightsaber at the start of the fight. It extends as needed, but you can be sure he won't be drawing attention to his tactics before a fight by letting enemies know he is a reach threat.
2) If he's 40' away and you have a 30' movement in an AMF then he isn't in range.
3) As I pointed out, you fly in order to prevent someone in an AMF from approaching you. As a matter of fact in your world (where fighters routinely use AMF items to combat casters) no one at high levels would spend any time on the ground...just fly all the time since using an AMF also negates magical mobility.
Given the infrequency of AMF's and how annoying this might be if you were about to walk into a permanent placed AMF, I think the odds of having this up all the time wouldn't be that great. For a one on one duel against Lockdown, it is of course an excellent wording.
Infrequency? For the way you described it, AMF items should be a common anti-caster tactic at high levels. They are also one of the only tactics said casters should really, really be afraid of.
And walking into a constantly AMFed area? Casters a nuts to do so if they don't absolutely trust the person. If they do it's pretty simple...just say "be right back," walk in (teleporting you away) and teleport back.
I just don't think this is an unlikely tactic in the world you've described when making your fighter build.
Unless you are really truly thinking that your DM is going to get let you get away with all your attacks being touch attacks, I'll point out that Lockdown has a pretty good AC, and power attacking on full probably isn't going to hit him.
I'm still not going to give in and let you write off my class abilities just cause they are good.
If I did have to worry about no wraithstrike though, there are other ways to boost attacks - I just didn't bother at all since I didn't need to.
My big problems are the reliance on alter self and persistent wraithstike. Your build doesn't have a lot of AoO generators except for the Thicket, which means you are only doing dmg with full attack sequences.
No reliance on alter self. Wraithstrike could still work for him even if not persistent.
The point of no AoO generators is that I don't need them like the fighter does. Lets make a short list:
Robilars - No thank you, I'd rather not be attacked.
Mage Slayer - Readied actions work just as well against these specific enemies.
Occult Opportunist - Not official material anyway, but if it's a huge deal we have room for it.
Defensive Sweep - We don't have to rely on this for damage, we can actually use our attacks and we will be outdamaging the fighter anyway.
it also doesn't shut down spellcasters unless you ready actions, which shafts your damage potential. One of the key things on Lockdown at high levels is he can shut them down AND do dmg to them...and get multiple AoO's.
These builds are about tacitcs, not just damage output. If I can lock down a caster and kill him through readied actions, more power to me. I could also go the route of quicked spells to if that tickles your fancy.
The way this is set up, it'd do better as an uber charger build. Use your motility to get in close and deal full attacks and kill dragons in one round with the cheese. Or the dragon turns around and wipes your party with his own persistent wraithstrike and 40 points of Power Attack. Ehhhhhh, ouch. Broken level one spells are bad for the game and build basing.
He might be better as a lot of things, but he was built to be better at lockdown than the fighter - a goal he accomplishes. If you want to talk about DMs using player tactics, who's to say you won't run into an RKV lockdown build when your DM gets tired of your thicket of blades trick?
You also point out how hard this would be to play before level 13. With no DMM: Persistent, you can't use that trick until you can cast level 7 spells...that's level 16 before you really have the all day buffs you want.
Meh...he can still contribute enough to make it through the levels, probably as much as a pure fighter can.
I also don't like your reliance on all them spells which can be stripped from you so easily, unlike items. He's also really fragile inside an AMF if someone pops a Dimensional Anchor, or he's in a Forbiddance or something.
Two rings of counterspell are standard.
You think it's ridiculous when people point out how reliant your fighter is on items, but now you are saying the same thing about this guy and spells? That certainly is a double standard.
I recommend reposting it as generic race, removing race from the equation entirely. Use the Elite Array, not a point buy...this puts everything on equal footing. Avoid the known cheese/broken spells (I was pleased to see you didn't default to Celerity to 'always win' initiative.)
Meh...a lot of people preferred that you didn't rely on custom items, unofficial sources, and tactics that completely favor your build. If you rewrite yours conforming to all those things I'll do the same.
As they stand though, this guy does the lockdown trick better.It looks like a fun, mobile fighting build. I'm not sure if you can meet the reqs with your spells known (a sorc, esp, should post at least the open slots at all levels).
The number of spells known is posted at each level.
I think he and his lightsaber (he doesn't even get that til level 11, and the campaign being half over
At this point you have to be joking right? Knowledge of my tactics would be what shuts me down? Not only would that not work all the time, but turn the same logic around on your build.
__________________________
Anyway I do appreciate you taking the time to look it over and while I may have been a little terse in a few places, plz don't take this response to be mean-spirited or any such thing.
However, if you are getting frustrated at critiques of the lockdown build that you think are erroneous, unfair, etc...just take a look back at your remarks about this sorcadin and you will see that they look pretty similar.
What exactly are you trying to prove with this build?
If you're trying to show that a Fighter can contribute to a party, well, congrats, you did. It's a nice build, and the squishier party members will certainly appreciate the lockdown. Not sure about the AMF though, but it's probably unnecessary in a party. Granted, a Warblade could probably do it better, but the Fighter you posted does well.
If you're trying to create an arena build, I think there are plenty of things (yes, even a Druid!) that could take you out (and I'm not even that clever compared with some of the other people around here), depending on the starting positions, the geography of the arena, and the starting preparations allowed. If you really want to run a test, feel free to specify the rules, and if I have time I'll see what I can do.
I think this should have been asked earlier, but...
What exactly are you trying to prove with this build?
It's a fighter 20 arena build. It's to prove that standstill is as good as improved trip.
It's a fighter 20 arena build. It's to prove that standstill is as good as improved trip.
I thought it was pretty well known that Standstill is a great feat for spiked chain wielders?
And in an arena, it'll really depend on the starting conditions. In any of the CoCo arenas (assuming they didn't add another), Locke would probably be toast vs. a caster.
I thought it was pretty well known that Standstill is a great feat for spiked chain wielders?
And in an arena, it'll really depend on the starting conditions. In any of the CoCo arenas (assuming they didn't add another), Locke would probably be toast vs. a caster.
Yeah, but lockdown only gets three AoO's against it's ideal opponent. The spiked chain tripper gets a bunch vs a bunch of opponents. Different tactics. Lockdown can't trip, but snow's spiked chain tripper can't PMP.
DMM Persistent doesn't work on arcane spells. The Illumian racial trait does however - allowing me to burn turn attempts to fuel metamagic feats. Hence me being illumian - and I don't really see why an optimization exercise should require me to be a "standard" race.
One of the reasons I built Lockdown as he did was to take Race completely out of the equation. So, if I emphasize this point, that's why. You are basically forcing people to play a race that many of them simply cannot. And it invalidates your whole build with a racial ability that rivals one of the most powerful feats in the whole game, and probably surpasses it. In short, you have an Ilumian build...not a Fighter build.
In my build, race is not part of the whole package. I built with class alone.
That's not true - it makes for more solid comparisons for builds that rely on similar stat distribution. For real comparisons with optimization, PB is more fair. Elite array is a 25 PB, so using 25 PB should be perfectly fine.
I use the Elite Array to remove even the slightest attempt at min/maxing stats from consideration. If you insist on using Point Buy, go ahead...but now we have an uneven comparison, because you can tailor your stats and dump them, and I have to live with stuff.
If all builds go by the same rules, we have better comparisons, yes?
Wait, race is not part of a build? That's something new.
Honestly though, you should no better than to say that when so many people have come back at you with empty claims of "you are too item dependent." That's part of a character - no more, no less. Accusing me of relying on race rather than build is the same thing. The fact is its a whole package.
I want to make your build using a Dwarf. I can't. There's no flexibility in the build because you MUST be an Ilumian. It's a standard CharOpt tactic...find the most broken part of something and max it to the moon.
I went the other way. I removed all other considerations and stayed with a pure build. You modify the build from there.
I can't use spells because they are good? Thicket of Blades is arguably broken too...no one is complaining about that.
Because Thicket isn't broken. getting an AoO for movement is something that melees should have had ages ago. It's worth the price of the feat it costs. But a spell that turns all attacks into touch attacks all day at level 11? An effect that is possible by level 8, or sooner? that is better then the +4 Weapon Effect Brilliant? That has NO cost attached to acquiring or using it?
Perhaps especially on here, it's considered blatant spell cheese (relying on broken spells to do your work). You won't find any serious build on the boards using Wraithstrike cheese...it was broken within a week of it first seeing play, and CO moved on. No sane DM will allow it in his campagn. Come on...step back from the character and LOOK at the spell.
Just stand back and LOOK at what Wraithstrike is and what it can do. It's an utter campaign wrecker. Any DM that allows it into his campaign either wants a TPK or no challenge in his encounters for the PC's.
As for mage armor...wow, I didn't even notice it was a conjuration spell rather than abjuration. It's pretty dumb for them to list mage armor in the abjurant champion's Abjurant Armor ability then.
Yeah, that's been noticed, too.
The point was that I'm not even close as far as gold limit goes.
As Previn was very, very insistent on pointing out to me, gold is a hard limit, and when you play fast and loose with it, it catches up fast. I didn't think 3 books would amount to much...was I mistaken!
Each Book is 137.5K! 3 +6 Enchancers are +108k! So, before you get ANYTHING else, you've already used up over 500K of your gold!
250k is a TIGHT operating budget at level 20. You aren't 'way under budget'. Truth be told, you are probably way OVER budget. I didn't think I was that close, that's why I had to make hard choices and throw out some inherent stat buffs I dearly would have liked to keep.
I think this point is debatable. Maybe it would help if you could point me to the rule on not being able to GMW Mordenkainen's Sword.
Point me to the rule where you can enchant force effects, and I'll agree with you (that way, I can enchant my Mage ARmor and Shield spell too! wooT!) Owing to it looks like you are really trying to find a loophole to exploit, I'd stay away with it. My biggest loophole was the whole Thicket vs Tumble thing. Tumble 10' step isn't invalidated by not being reprinted (As opposed to being disallowed) in 3.5, but it's considered 'shaky ground' and people DO point it out.
Well this is how a lot of these kinds of debates go....I can do that, if you can do this...yada, yada, yada.
As you note later, I didn't rely on the cheese that always allows me to go first, but if you can nab and spells you want and put them in items, maybe I should have?
In any case it doesn't matter all that much, as we saw in the tactics section.
Well, you are relying on a spell to win you initiative every time. It's a low level spell, and so easy for someone to pick up if it wins you initiative every time...again, the 'everyone should have it' rule. Furthermore, it's VERY low level, and thus cheap to buy...I don't NEED to be able to cast it. I can use gold to make up for your class abilities.
Lockdown's init comes from one item whose primary bonus is not init, and his Dex and improved init. It does make a difference in any fight.
Wait, using alter self to get a flying form is cheese? Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm so far under budget it's not funny...I could just rely on an item for this if I want. The point is that I don't need to since I have class abilities that are good.
You aren't under budget. You are doing like I did/...handwaving gold. Previn put in a lot of time proving I was wrong...and I had to redo the magic items of the build to compensate.
And yeah, the whole polymorph chain is cheese, sir. Can you cast a Fly spell at the level you can alter self? No? Well, how about get a +7 Nat AC...that isn't even an enhancement bonus? No? Ever?
See? Cheese. And again, it's a low level spell that can even be stuffed in a potion...or a wand. So it's not the build, man...it's relying on a broken spell.
PA is right there in the build man - level 15 feat to be exact. Exceeding the spells know? Read the comments under spell selection - I have over a dozen spells known left to choose, which was important because that allows me a lot more versatility than the left over feats of the fighter.
I must have missed Power Attack, and went back and looked for it three times before I posted that. I guess I wasn't expecting to see it at level 15 and just glazed past it.
And someone who faces the lockdown build could make the same "cheese" argument about thicket of blades and even PMP. Even if wraithstrike isn't persistent, it is a swift action cast and this guy has boatloads of spells to power it from one encounter to the next, so w/e.
You don't hear anyone on these boards complain about the 'power' of Thicket. Nor do people whine about the 'power' of PMP. The costs of taking the feats are a massive offset to any kind of 'brokenness' they might have. There are very, very few builds out there which even MENTION taking PMP.
Call me crazy, but I feel like there were more than a couple references in your OP about what the other party members are doing.
Either way it isn't a big deal (as I realized after fretting over a high AC for a long time). Take off 8 points from his AC (-5 GMV and -3 replacing G mage armor with bracers) and he is still at a ridiculous AC. More importantly, it usually doesn't matter...no one gets close enough to hit him. And if the lockdown fighter hits him, none of it really counts anyway - PMP kills it all. Bottom line, we aren't really relying on AC anyway, it's just nice to have if we are out of AoOs, facing archers, etc.
The difference is that the Bracers are always up, all the time, and can't be dispelled. It's also that they cost another 64K from your limited Gold Supply. You are now at almost 600k!
I tried very hard to get him a good AC, because this isn't an Arena build...it's designed to be viable as an adventurer. So, yes, you have to pay attention to AC. Lockdown IS vulnerable to archers, and so are you, and we both have to compensate for it. If a melee monster gets in range of you, and it WILL happen, you have to be able to survive. AC does that.
That works too I guess, but we can just go without honestly. (For what it's worth though, being forced to be good isn't a big deal for a pally.
)True, Dat. I'm just pointing out that I didn't include any powerful Exalted or Vile feats in my build, nor races, classes, templates, etc, that brought it in as a factor. You CAN be these things...but they aren't required!
And pallies can get away with other alignments if you really want to via UA.
That's a DM area and so I generally don't move in on it. Much like flaws. There's things which are accepted as they should be in core, and then options.
PA is in there, we don't need heroics for it. I always forget about dim door preventing other actions, but ya teleport is fine (we have room for it).
Dim door more an escape spell or ambush spell then pure mobility.
Again...I don't see why I have to give things up, but I can't make you do the same. What if I start saying AMF items are broken? The "usable in all campaigns" rhetoric isn't going to help a fighter who relies on so many custom items.
Again...alter self is not crucial here. Nix it if you want and the build works just as well, except the super buffed archer might hit us once in a while.
An AMF item isn't a custom item. It's out of FR. I don't actually have any custom items...I just have stuff made to maximize slots. Getting a Nerveskitter effect added to a set of bracers or the belt which already does Init isn't any different then buying Alter Self potions or wands.
Now, spending money at level 12 to get a custom Greater Mighty Wallop wand that casts at level 20, that's probably a custom item.
To be fair, the fighter relies on unofficial material to prevent swift casting in the first place, so if you want to play by the rules you have the same problem. Moreover, the build has an open feat at 18 - grab Occult Opportunist if you want and you can threaten the same swift actions or whatever.
Swift casting forces the Ready Action. However, you don't have Mage Slayer backing you up with eliminating the ability to eliminate the Cast Defensively option. So any caster with a quickened escape spell could cast it, get struck, lose it, and then simply cast defensively and get away from you easily (standard tactic). It's why I blew a feat on Mage Slayer. Occult Opportunist means I could AoO that, but it's not in the core build, it's an option. At the very least, it should have been part of the Mage Slayer chain, and it's not, so most DM's aren't going to easily allow it.
If this guy gets to make the same assumptions as the fighter though (winning initiative being the key one) none of this really matters though - he'll have the caster locked down and/dead no problem.
The caster won't be locked, is the problem. If he's got a quickened or swift spell, you can't stop him. And you don't use an AMF to stop his casting. You might be able to Ubercharge him to death...always a good thing.
Of course initiative is at these levels, why do you think everyone else has just assumed that the wizards will use their resources first and foremost to be sure they get the first action in combat?
Because it's something wizards do in Arena builds, not neccessarily in normal play, because of the feat and spell investment. they also assume the other party can't use their resources to do the same thing, and the spellcasters also assume that after doing all that, they still have a character that is viable through all levels of play as a normal adventuring mage.
Can't cast that close? I can cast from 75 feet away...so not sure what you mean.
I mean if Lockdown's in threatening range. Also, MDJ hoses everyone who it goes off on, not just Fighters...so using it as an argument isn't really that good, especially when you can't really get it off for another level...and Epic Gold means I won't be failing my Will save!
Ya and again I agree with you that this point is debatable. Someone arguing it works could take the following line of logic:
Which is, of course, attempting to find a loophole. I suggest something more direct...any ruling that allows you to enchant a force effect or spell-weapon made out of energy. A force beam that looks like a lance is not a lance. Mage Armor is not armor. Shield is not a shield.
Call it twisted, but there is at least a reading of the rules that supports this. If anything the options seem to be 40' if the rules work, or 20' if they don't. I'm going to assume 40' works unless I get a real solid argument why it shouldn't.
And I'm going to go the other way. I don't see a Mordenkainen's sword suddenly getting Colossal if the caster shapechanges into a Titan, do you? Likewise, I dont see the effect of another force spell doing the same.
1) He isn't waving around a huge lightsaber at the start of the fight. It extends as needed, but you can be sure he won't be drawing attention to his tactics before a fight by letting enemies know he is a reach threat.
He's a level 20 character girt in lots of shiny spells. Anyone with spellcraft can make a check to see any visible spells. I'd say thunderlance is pretty visible.
2) If he's 40' away and you have a 30' movement in an AMF then he isn't in range.
There's double moves and Run actions, my friend.
3) As I pointed out, you fly in order to prevent someone in an AMF from approaching you. As a matter of fact in your world (where fighters routinely use AMF items to combat casters) no one at high levels would spend any time on the ground...just fly all the time since using an AMF also negates magical mobility.
Because Terrain doesn't always allow you to fly out of reach of people? Furthermore, flying makes you a huge target and more easily spotted at range. There's a reason people don't fly all the time...although it IS a good tactic. Relying on spells for flight means you are also susceptible to them failing, and then having to waste time recasting.
Infrequency? For the way you described it, AMF items should be a common anti-caster tactic at high levels. They are also one of the only tactics said casters should really, really be afraid of.
And walking into a constantly AMFed area? Casters a nuts to do so if they don't absolutely trust the person. If they do it's pretty simple...just say "be right back," walk in (teleporting you away) and teleport back.
AMF are NOT visible. It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of hitting the field. Then, you have to put the contingency and the teleport back up. You also don't have the CHOICE to pass through the field (say, if the bad guy is on the other side), because if you do, you just get ported away. And then you might go around for 5-6 sessions and your contingency never gets used. Or then you have an encounter with an Interdiction or Forbiddance up or something, and you can't teleport, and your contingency is useless...or the enemy has Greater Anticipate Teleport up and you teleporting back puts you in very hot water (and takes you out of action for 3 entire rounds!!!)
So there's the metagame to consider. Sure, for an arena build, it's fine. But I didn't build Lockdown for the Arena...I made him to be viable against casters.
I just don't think this is an unlikely tactic in the world you've described when making your fighter build.
See above. It all depends on circumstances.
I'm still not going to give in and let you write off my class abilities just cause they are good.
Casting wraithstike is not a class ability. Casting spells is. relying on wraithstrike for the heart of your offensive power is relying on spell cheese that is acknowledged as broken if you bother to examine the spell.
If I did have to worry about no wraithstrike though, there are other ways to boost attacks - I just didn't bother at all since I didn't need to.
Then I suggest you bother up and do so. It starts really showing the strain of being a gish if you have to buff, buff buff buff buff to equal Lockdown...and then you can lose all them buffs in an instant via the right dispel or AMF. Pile on enough spells, and anyone is uber (Animal Companions with 6+ buff spells on them do horrific damage!). But having to DO those buffs, devote the time and slots to them, is the cost to your class abilities you are conveniently sidestepping by use of ONE low level spell.
Seriously, look at the spell. You can't buy a permanent True Strike item, yet you have a spell of the same level that gives a +40 TH bonus vs Elder Dragons, and for multiple attacks, BEFORE you throwing Persistent Cheese on it. And you don't consider that utter cheese?
I didn't comment on your other spell choices. They are great and show yoru class abilties off. But using wraithstrike and alter self is showing off cheese, not a great class combo.
No reliance on alter self. Wraithstrike could still work for him even if not persistent.
And with ready actions or an AMF, it doesn't work at all. I mentioned Alter Self only because you did, and you used it for the standard reason...it gets rid of the need for multiple other spells, buffs, items, and the like, all of which are normally higher level.
The point of no AoO generators is that I don't need them like the fighter does. Lets make a short list:
Robilars - No thank you, I'd rather not be attacked.
But since you can't stop it all the time...
Mage Slayer - Readied actions work just as well against these specific enemies.
No, they don't, as casting on the defensive will quickly inform you.
Occult Opportunist - Not official material anyway, but if it's a huge deal we have room for it.
Helps, but strictly an option, and should probably be in the Mage Slayer chiain, at the least, which means you probably won't take it. BTW, I never orignally cited it...the Warblade player brought it up.
Defensive Sweep - We don't have to rely on this for damage, we can actually use our attacks and we will be outdamaging the fighter anyway.
Different applications, and again, no, you won't be outdamaging him with a more sure build. With Defensive Sweep, I can take the Ready Action and still do dmg to people whether they trigger the Thicket or not. If I'm in Assault mode, I can do the same thing without the Ready if the caster is inside an AMF. Different applications. If you're taking Ready Actions to make sure he doesn't get away, you might spend a whole round doing NOTHING AT ALL. Defensive Sweep says I do not have this problem. Moreover, it synergizes wonderfully with Stand Still.
These builds are about tacitcs, not just damage output. If I can lock down a caster and kill him through readied actions, more power to me. I could also go the route of quicked spells to if that tickles your fancy.
You might have to go the quickened spell route...but it has a more clearly defined cost to it, and there's more limits on how you can use it. It's acknowledged as much more balanced.
He might be better as a lot of things, but he was built to be better at lockdown than the fighter - a goal he accomplishes. If you want to talk about DMs using player tactics, who's to say you won't run into an RKV lockdown build when your DM gets tired of your thicket of blades trick?
Well, then I'd build my Lockdown build with either Charging Minotaur or the Spring Attack chain or add one of the manuvers that allow an attack without provoking attacks from movement (via a Martial Script?) Then I'd end my movement within my threat zone of you (Preferably right next to you.) Your build relies entirely on keeping me at a distance beyond MY reach. Therefore, the question is if I can get inside your reach. Blinking might enable me to do it. An extending weapon or bracers that allow same would make it moot. Spring attack or the manuvers would do the job. If I get into Assault mode on you, you are likely dead. If I end my move in range of my AMF and use the Belt of Battle to get it up, you are likely dead. You don't even have a backup weapon to threaten me with...it's all spells.
And no, I dont think the Thicket overcomes other feats that grant immunity to move based AoO's. Tumble is another story...it's still considered normal movement.
Another option is get Elusive Target. This destroys your build because he's now immune to Power Attack (and can actually get you to strike someone else close by).
The Last option is to get a high touch AC (over 30, 40+?). If he was a standard fighter, he could do it fairly easily with Shield Ward and an uber shield (+13 touch AC) and/or Energized Armor (armor adds to Touch AC). You've got a fairly low abilty to hit, and without Power Attack/Wraithstrike, you don't do much dmg. Defender on the weapon would also do it, too...since his weapon goes to +7, that's a nice bonus to his touch AC.
It's not, however, part of the core build. For a build like yours that MIGHT outreach him, a martial script with some form of attack manuver that gets him inside your reach and all the way to his is definitely the way to go.
And I'm not worried about an RKV lockdown build, because Lockdown isn't a broken PrC, either. We start getting into White Raven cheese with Turn attempts, and all gloves are off everywhere. Another char opts rules loop the CO board has found and now ignores, since it's obviously broken.
Meh...he can still contribute enough to make it through the levels, probably as much as a pure fighter can.
He has to keep his spells fairly fixed as a sorceror, tho. with no wraithstrike or his lightsaber, what is he using, and what kind of dmg, and how effective is he without having to spend time to buff all the time to up his dmg? You can see where Lockdown is going to be at every step along the way. At low levels fighters rock hard...gishes don't really do well until they have some really nice buffs to back them up. I was derided for having a Fighter build that could equip a Bow of Affinity and do a fairly good job as an archer as being useless at range. Your build doesn't have the str for a great Str build at lower levels, because you put stat enhancement elsewhere. You can't add Cha to other weapons.
In short, at lower levels, from what I can see, unless you put in some ray attacks, you are basically buffing other people and doing very subpar dmg for a melee tanker.
Two rings of counterspell are standard.
Excellent. Which spells? Because you are at level 20, and there's at least 5 different ways to dispel you now, including dispels that steal your precious buffs,another that damages you for havng them, and counterspell rings go up to level 6 only. You also have to keep refilling them when they get used up, which eats up your spells/day. All this stuff has to be equipped and worked into your tactics.
Lockdown has no buffs to speak of, except Enlarge, and so dispelling is largely a non-factor.
You think it's ridiculous when people point out how reliant your fighter is on items, but now you are saying the same thing about this guy and spells? That certainly is a double standard.
No, it's an adventuring truism. Buffs fail. Buffs get dispelled. Buffs let you down. Items are always there, all the time, and you can rely on them. Only Arena builds rely on temporary stuff all the time, unless you play the 8-8:05 campaign. Only MDJ screws the pooch on items, and it does so for everyone. It also happens to get rid of all buffs at the same time, which also means any buffed person is likely dead, but it's another double standard people use. A buffed person only has to get shafted ONCE to learn that relying on buffs can be a very, very bad idea.
Meh...a lot of people preferred that you didn't rely on custom items, unofficial sources, and tactics that completely favor your build. If you rewrite yours conforming to all those things I'll do the same.
As they stand though, this guy does the lockdown trick better.I think he does the job well, but better? That's a different story. And the whole custom item, unofficial sources, and completely favor tactics is a bad argument. He's effective against casters, and against monsters, and has the ability to close rapidly with ranged attackers. He can potentially totally shut down and hose a spellcaster. He's not really vulnerable to loss of buffs like a gish is, and certainly does better without buffs and items then a gish, until the gish can completely rebuff (the MDJ tactic)
All in your play style, I guess.
The number of spells known is posted at each level.
My apologies, I should have stated it more clearly. Sorcerors trade spells as they go up in level, swapping in, out. Thus, spells known at each level is what he's capable of doing as he goes up in level, something you can easily track as a Fighter. The fact your build doesn't really get moving until 13+ is a big black mark in a lot of people's eyes. Rocking at 20 isn't any good if I don't want to play you before then.
At this point you have to be joking right? Knowledge of my tactics would be what shuts me down? Not only would that not work all the time, but turn the same logic around on your build.
The casters always want to! Look at some of the past pages. They automatically assume they know everything that I can do. Eh!
__________________________
Anyway I do appreciate you taking the time to look it over and while I may have been a little terse in a few places, plz don't take this response to be mean-spirited or any such thing.
However, if you are getting frustrated at critiques of the lockdown build that you think are erroneous, unfair, etc...just take a look back at your remarks about this sorcadin and you will see that they look pretty similar.
More incomplete then similar.
I reiterate my prior suggestions. The fellow who posted the warblade build abided by them.
Generic Race. DMM: Persistent Clerics can be built of any race...thus, they are a build. What you have here is an Ilumian, not a Lock Build. Most DM's looking at the tactic you are relying on will simply disallow the race as having too powerful of features, or maybe it just doesn't exist in their world. Lockdown can be built from any race.
Generic stats, the Elite Array. I could use Point Buy and don't. Illustrate the build and what the build can do, not your ability to min/max stats. Not everyone plays point buy. Keep it all equal and it removes comparison stats from the argument.
Add up your gold. Just those Items I mentioned above leaves you close to 600k, maybe 150k left to spend. That's what, 2-3 metamagic rods? And we haven't even got to some of your protective items. Seriously, look at your gold. You aren't 'not even close'. You're probably way OVER budget. Previn nailed me for this, and he was right to do so. I used to have 3 Books and Stat buffers too. maybe I should 'cheat' and have +1 Armor and Weapons and use +5 Oils for a free edge and get another 150k to spend.
Mages don't SEEM to be expensive, until you start adding up all the 'little things' they have. Mages run out of money as fast as anyone once they decide some permanent protection is in order, and not just buffs failing once too often.
And please don't rely on a spell tactic that no sane DM will ever allow in a campaign (or sane players, for that matter). That goes beyond even a race-based build, to a completely broken spell even CO doesn't bother with anymore.
I'd like to see a good, honest, clean, fair build that anyone can use, which is what I put up for Lockdown. he's not an Arena build...that's why he has permanent items, not Oils of Greater weapon/vestment, and loads of temporary items, because those aren't used by 'real' builds.
I appreciate the effort you've spent so far, but your job isn't done. Making up a good Sorc gish shouldn't be so easy that you leave off half his spells because you have 'one combo to rule them all'. There are lots of good spells and tactics out there, and using thunderlance was inspired in combo with Thicket.
And if you don't want to do so, I understand that, too. Making a viable character anyone can take and use into almost any campaign is not easy. Lockdown does the job pretty well. Yours, I think, wouldn't make the cut for a lot of people.
===Aelryinth
You keep citing me as being over budget. You even say my stat items along cost over 500k. Not true, they cost 440k, and adding bracers doesn't put me much over 500. So ya, 260k to spend on items I don't need and you're telling me I'm over budget?
Or how bout the AMF item again? It's published in Underdark IIRC - a campaign specific book that is hardly available in all campaigns. And yet a major weakness of my build is that the material isn't available in all campaigns?
You also point out counter tactics to beat this guy, but how relevant is that really? Every build has ways around it if you look hard enough. Your entire concept is easily dismissed with a telekenesis spell, a grease on your weapon, or the MDJ (just to name a few) - does that mean we should write it off?
Yeah, but lockdown only gets three AoO's against it's ideal opponent. The spiked chain tripper gets a bunch vs a bunch of opponents. Different tactics. Lockdown can't trip, but snow's spiked chain tripper can't PMP.
INSIDE an AMF he gets 4 AoO's, 16 Dex @ Combat Reflexes. And that first swing as an Assault so all the AoO's are double dmg.
OUTSIDE an AMF he gets 8 AoO's, 24 dex. Chain tripper never uses AMF, and has no special ability to stop casters whatsoever (making it a superfluous build against magic at high levels). After all, nothing says a tripped caster can't cast, right?
Lockdown isn't an Arena build. Any doofus can see that, and I specifically mention it several times. However, he keeps getting thrown up against Casters made for Arenas, which I, in turn, find pretty amusing. He's made to be an adventuring build viable at all levels of play, who also happens to have a secondary effect of being really good at locking down spellcasters.
He's also got five elective feats for CO's who hate the Spec Tree and want something different in their builds. The fact that he IS so good at taking out standard spellcasters, judging by all the people jumping roaring on the bandwagon with tactics that might overcome him which no standard mage build would use, I just call build vindication.
Nor is his 'preferred' enemy spellcasters. His preferred enemy is big melee monsters he can hopefully out-reach and keep away from the rest of the party, and deal huge dmg to if they try to get past him or bother to attack him. He just happens to be able to do really bad things to creatures using spells around him...which makes him nasty at high levels where spellcasters might consider him 'not a threat', for some reason.
===Aelryinth
I probably would put some more time into it, but at this point you simply aren't being intellectually honest with your responses, which makes the whole conversation not really worth having. For example:
You keep citing me as being over budget. You even say my stat items along cost over 500k. Not true, they cost 440k, and adding bracers doesn't put me much over 500. So ya, 260k to spend on items I don't need and you're telling me I'm over budget?
Am I missing something? Tomes are 137,500/110k apeice, and you have 3. So you are at 357K right there (I thought you had all +5 tomes initially). 3 +6 stat buffers is +108k, so you are are 465k. Bracers are +64k, so now we are up to 530k. And we haven't figured in metamagic rods, nat AC, deflection, resistance, or anything similar. Greater MM rods are what, 50k a pop? More? And you want 'a handful'? that's as bad as me generalizing. I had to go back and look at Previn's list to find out that Boots of teleportation weren't on there...I thought for sure they were. heh!
Gold goes fast.
Or how bout the AMF item again? It's published in Underdark IIRC - a campaign specific book that is hardly available in all campaigns. And yet a major weakness of my build is that the material isn't available in all campaigns?
First published there, but that hardly makes it 'custom'. A once/day item casting a level 6 magic spell that has been bounced around since the beginning of the game? It's not like I'm trying to make a Persistent Wraithstrike bracer or something. It's only called 'custom' because spellcasters hate the idea of it.
And yeah, I do call it a weakness of your build. if you don't like it, well, I'm sorry. illumians aren't in core rules...item creation and AM Shell is. Neither is Wraithstrike. And a racial ability better then DMM: Persistent and a spell better then True Strike in all ways is a lot more unlikely to get into a campaign then a 1/day Antimagic Shell any way you look at it.
You also point out counter tactics to beat this guy, but how relevant is that really? Every build has ways around it if you look hard enough. Your entire concept is easily dismissed with a telekenesis spell, a grease on your weapon, or the MDJ (just to name a few) - does that mean we should write it off?
Your entire premise was asking me to come up with tactics that could beat your build. You could look at mine, note the biggest threat was reach, and you specifically designed a build that would Out-Reach him. I gave you that (Size L, adding 5' to the 20' weapon for 25' reach).
The rest with wraithstrike is pure Cheese, and you know it. It won't get into any serious campaign. So, I'm asking you to make an honest build without using a spell that is utterly crippled, and that anyone could use on any character...not just an Illumian.
Telekinesis has to make an opposed Str roll, and I've got Locking Gauntlets...if you are trying to get rid of my weapon. Grease? I've got probably a better then a 50% chance to maintain my weapon, and it's still locked even if I drop it, so I get it back. MDJ screws everyone, including your build...at least I can make sure if I get close that the mage couldn't get it off, or I can take a ready action to possibly get out of range of the burst, or something (if he's that close, I can probably charge him). And at level 20, who is going to spend a round Greasing my weapon when he's got more important things to do?
Or are you just annoyed that Spring Attack trips up your build? Or Elusive target? or the no-AoO manuvers and scripts? Your whole premise is built around me not getting close to you, or others not getting close to you. I CAN get close to you. Fights are going to happen where people DO get close to you (can't take those Thicket AoO's on people with cover from other people, for instance) and encounters aren't always at optimal distance.
I built Lockdown to adhere to certain standards, and I like your idea, but YOU are the one who wanted to compare to him. Is it unfair for me to hold you to the same standards of wide play that I do? A lot of people like the Lockdown build because it IS so very portable.
Well, I'd like to see you make a VERY portable build, too. And if does the Lockdown job, too, all the better. Better? Maybe. but if not, it'l certainly have strengths in other areas, right?
====Aelryinth
First published there, but that hardly makes it 'custom'. A once/day item casting a level 6 magic spell that has been bounced around since the beginning of the game? It's not like I'm trying to make a Persistent Wraithstrike bracer or something. It's only called 'custom' because spellcasters hate the idea of it.
And yeah, I do call it a weakness of your build. if you don't like it, well, I'm sorry. illumians aren't in core rules...item creation and AM Shell is. Neither is Wraithstrike.
So which is it :
- the Antimagic Torc is taken from Unapproachable East. It is settings-/region-specific.
- the Antimagic item is a custom item built using the DMG rules.
You keep bouncing between those 2 as it fits you (not custom because in Faerun, not settings-specific because of the DMG), which does not make the argument very convincing. Note that either way it's fine, but it's a shortcoming of the build you should admit.
Gabrion did mention that he could drop Persistent and use slots for (Extended) Wraithstrike.
And the Belt of Battle is a fine piece of cheese.
Also, saying your item-dependent Fighter is less hindered by Dispels is completely wrong. A chained Greater Dispel (heck, even a Dispel may work on some items - that way you only need a lesser Rod) will make his gear useless for 1d4 rounds, which is enough to bash him over the head or escape, as desired.
Disjunction screws the Fighter Lock a lot more since his Will save is non-existent.
edit : how a wizard-gish might do it
Show
I'm sure anybody here on the CO boards can do better than me
- I chose Diviner (drop Enchantment) to get extra spells at little cost, but Focused Transmuter should work fairly well.
- As expected, squeezing in Mage Slayer is hard (because it has to come with Practiced Spellcaster) for a non-human non-flaw build. It forces a choice between the excellent Quicken (but JPM allows us to Quicken 1 spell/encounter) and Arcane Strike (extra to hit and damage !). Or you can drop it and get something else.
- If 9th level spells are not important, getting another level of Warblade can net IHS or WRT or... Alternatively, one can start with Crusader (I know it's considered a better lead-in, I just wanted to try with Warblade) or Swordsage : then the extra level of Warblade nets both IHS and WRT.
- The choice of maneuvers is likely sub-optimal - I did that in 2 minutes.
- The buffs are likely to be the same as the sorcerer's, but being a wizard, this guy can afford some battlefield control... If the Polymorph line is out, he uses Greater Enlarge Person to be Large at all times. If Persisting via Illumian is out, he can probably use a "mundane" reach weapon with some spells to provide natural weapons to threaten the close range. Extended Wraithstrike and Quickened True Strike help. In a restricted game, he needs buffing time, but he's a wizard so most of the time he gets to pick the time and place of his battles.
Now if somebody has the courage (and time) to do stats and gear, it would be great.
Wizard (diviner) 5/Warblade 1/JPM 8/AbjCha 4/JPM +2
BAB 17, CL 17
Feats :
1 Combat Casting
3 Combat Reflexes
5 (Wiz) Extend Spell
6 Stand Still
9 Power Attack
12 Practiced Spellcaster
15 Mage Slayer
18 Quicken or Arcane Strike
Maneuvers :
DM Action Before Thought
IH Disarming Strike
WR Battle Leader's Charge
DS Foehammer (JPM 1)
DS Defensive Rebuke (JPM 3)
DS Divine Surge (JPM 5)
DS Daunting Strike (JPM 7)
DS Shield Counter (JPM 9)
WR Leading the Charge
DS Thicket of Blades (JPM 5)
- I chose Diviner (drop Enchantment) to get extra spells at little cost, but Focused Transmuter should work fairly well.
- As expected, squeezing in Mage Slayer is hard (because it has to come with Practiced Spellcaster) for a non-human non-flaw build. It forces a choice between the excellent Quicken (but JPM allows us to Quicken 1 spell/encounter) and Arcane Strike (extra to hit and damage !). Or you can drop it and get something else.
- If 9th level spells are not important, getting another level of Warblade can net IHS or WRT or... Alternatively, one can start with Crusader (I know it's considered a better lead-in, I just wanted to try with Warblade) or Swordsage : then the extra level of Warblade nets both IHS and WRT.
- The choice of maneuvers is likely sub-optimal - I did that in 2 minutes.
- The buffs are likely to be the same as the sorcerer's, but being a wizard, this guy can afford some battlefield control... If the Polymorph line is out, he uses Greater Enlarge Person to be Large at all times. If Persisting via Illumian is out, he can probably use a "mundane" reach weapon with some spells to provide natural weapons to threaten the close range. Extended Wraithstrike and Quickened True Strike help. In a restricted game, he needs buffing time, but he's a wizard so most of the time he gets to pick the time and place of his battles.
Now if somebody has the courage (and time) to do stats and gear, it would be great.
Wizard (diviner) 5/Warblade 1/JPM 8/AbjCha 4/JPM +2
BAB 17, CL 17
Feats :
1 Combat Casting
3 Combat Reflexes
5 (Wiz) Extend Spell
6 Stand Still
9 Power Attack
12 Practiced Spellcaster
15 Mage Slayer
18 Quicken or Arcane Strike
Maneuvers :
DM Action Before Thought
IH Disarming Strike
WR Battle Leader's Charge
DS Foehammer (JPM 1)
DS Defensive Rebuke (JPM 3)
DS Divine Surge (JPM 5)
DS Daunting Strike (JPM 7)
DS Shield Counter (JPM 9)
WR Leading the Charge
DS Thicket of Blades (JPM 5)
Marital Study: Crusader Strike
Combat Reflexes
Standstill
Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
Improved Initiative
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
Mage Slayer
Weapon Finesse: Spiked Chain
Give it the following items:
+4 str tome
+5 dex tome
Anti-Magic Torc
Masterwork Spiked Chain
Now compare it to the fighter in the AMF:
Telekinesis has to make an opposed Str roll...
Really? The version I'm reading says will saves negates (you know...the save you don't worry about because of a Mind Blank item).
Really? The version I'm reading says will saves negates (you know...the save you don't worry about because of a Mind Blank item).
Huh, I never noticed that before, interesting.
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text
Really? The version I'm reading says will saves negates (you know...the save you don't worry about because of a Mind Blank item).
Hahahah, Mind Blank is useless against 2/3 of the uses of Telekinesis! Ouch!
Lockdown has an initiative bonus of 11 (13 with belt of battle). A mage with improved initiative, a hummingbird familiar, and a +3 mod in dex meets his score already and will probably be even higher than that with more gear, and buffs (and will probably have a dex higher than 16 as-well especially by lvl 16+ as it improves AC initiative, and ranged touch attacks which tend to be the best choices for DD spells)
Lockdown has an initiative bonus of 11 (13 with belt of battle). A mage with improved initiative, a hummingbird familiar, and a +3 mod in dex meets his score already and will probably be even higher than that with more gear, and buffs (and will probably have a dex higher than 16 as-well especially by lvl 16+ as it improves AC initiative, and ranged touch attacks which tend to be the best choices for DD spells)
Also, why wouldn't a Wizard be wearing a Belt of Battle as well?
Also, why wouldn't a Wizard be wearing a Belt of Battle as well?
Shhhhhhsh...don't tell anyone, but in this thread wizards (and casters in general) are all very dumb. That's how we beat them with such simple tactics. ;)
Aelrynth, you make some valid points - in particular that your build keeps casters in the lock better than the gish (thanks to the Mage Slayer line) assuming they got caught in the first place. But you're also trying to dodge things here :
So which is it :
- the Antimagic Torc is taken from Unapproachable East. It is settings-/region-specific.
- the Antimagic item is a custom item built using the DMG rules.
You keep bouncing between those 2 as it fits you (not custom because in Faerun, not settings-specific because of the DMG), which does not make the argument very convincing. Note that either way it's fine, but it's a shortcoming of the build you should admit.
Gabrion did mention that he could drop Persistent and use slots for (Extended) Wraithstrike.
And the Belt of Battle is a fine piece of cheese.
Also, saying your item-dependent Fighter is less hindered by Dispels is completely wrong. A chained Greater Dispel (heck, even a Dispel may work on some items - that way you only need a lesser Rod) will make his gear useless for 1d4 rounds, which is enough to bash him over the head or escape, as desired.
Disjunction screws the Fighter Lock a lot more since his Will save is non-existent.
edit : how a wizard-gish might do itShowI'm sure anybody here on the CO boards can do better than me
- I chose Diviner (drop Enchantment) to get extra spells at little cost, but Focused Transmuter should work fairly well.
- As expected, squeezing in Mage Slayer is hard (because it has to come with Practiced Spellcaster) for a non-human non-flaw build. It forces a choice between the excellent Quicken (but JPM allows us to Quicken 1 spell/encounter) and Arcane Strike (extra to hit and damage !). Or you can drop it and get something else.
- If 9th level spells are not important, getting another level of Warblade can net IHS or WRT or... Alternatively, one can start with Crusader (I know it's considered a better lead-in, I just wanted to try with Warblade) or Swordsage : then the extra level of Warblade nets both IHS and WRT.
- The choice of maneuvers is likely sub-optimal - I did that in 2 minutes.
- The buffs are likely to be the same as the sorcerer's, but being a wizard, this guy can afford some battlefield control... If the Polymorph line is out, he uses Greater Enlarge Person to be Large at all times. If Persisting via Illumian is out, he can probably use a "mundane" reach weapon with some spells to provide natural weapons to threaten the close range. Extended Wraithstrike and Quickened True Strike help. In a restricted game, he needs buffing time, but he's a wizard so most of the time he gets to pick the time and place of his battles.
Now if somebody has the courage (and time) to do stats and gear, it would be great.
Wizard (diviner) 5/Warblade 1/JPM 8/AbjCha 4/JPM +2
BAB 17, CL 17
Feats :
1 Combat Casting
3 Combat Reflexes
5 (Wiz) Extend Spell
6 Stand Still
9 Power Attack
12 Practiced Spellcaster
15 Mage Slayer
18 Quicken or Arcane Strike
Maneuvers :
DM Action Before Thought
IH Disarming Strike
WR Battle Leader's Charge
DS Foehammer (JPM 1)
DS Defensive Rebuke (JPM 3)
DS Divine Surge (JPM 5)
DS Daunting Strike (JPM 7)
DS Shield Counter (JPM 9)
WR Leading the Charge
DS Thicket of Blades (JPM 5)
The 'but I could build a wizard to' finger-pointing doesn't detract from the pure reason that most wizards simply aren't built that way.
Because 'building a wizard to' is usually a downgrade from just building a normal wizard. People only engage in that kind of argument because you won't recognize any of the powerful wizard abilities as legitimate.
Mages get less use out of a Belt of Battle then a fighter does, because they get swift spells. It's not as broadly useful to them. For a duel, sure. OVerall? They can probably get all the same benefits with spells, and they've things already part of the class to use their swift actions on. The belt is just not as useful as it is to a Fighter, except maybe for a Nova effect.
Your telling me that an item that is effectively a 1/day greater rod of quicken for 12,000gp isn't broadly useful to them? 3 Belts of Battle (switched out during encounters) is FAR cheaper than said Greater Rod
Very, very few wizard builds on these boards bother with Improved Init. They are too busy getting the feats to get into PrC's and cannot afford the feats to waste on Initiative. Most of them also get rid of the familiar for some other benefit.
Now you are contradicting yourself, We are talking about a fighter 20 against a wizard 20 per your class balance argument. So why are you assuming the wizard is going for PrC's? This is a strawman argument at best.
Therefore, I'm not comparing Lockdown against an Arena build meant to maximize initiative. I mean, if you want to rely on cheese, just choose a Shapechange extended with a Metamagic rod to some form with a 30+ Dex, and cheese your way to the win. Or Declare Celerity+Time Stop "I win" (and watch your DM turn it on you into 'TPK You Lose' and celerity mysteriously vanishing from play.)
I'm not using shapechange in the example becuase it is pure cheese. As for contingencey, get over it. a contingient celerity is standard practice for almost every wizard build now adays becuase it garuntees a win. You use 1 6th level spell slot to garunteee yourself first action which is as good as an I win button for a wizard.
The Optimizer builds you see hereabouts for making viable mages don't do that. I'm not saying they can't, but by and large the builds are for getting into PrC's and eat up feats like mad.
Again you are relying on your strawman. The tactics I presented are standard issue for a 20 lvl wizard with no PrC's or multiclassing. Hell they are in the handbook on this very board.
Mages get less use out of a Belt of Battle then a fighter does, because they get swift spells. It's not as broadly useful to them. For a duel, sure. OVerall? They can probably get all the same benefits with spells, and they've things already part of the class to use their swift actions on. The belt is just not as useful as it is to a Fighter, except maybe for a Nova effect.
Untrue, Swift spells count against your number of imediate action spells you can take so it's best to use the extra action to cast and leave your immediate action open for reactive spells.
Hummingbird familiar? Now there's a splatbook reach. Yeah, see all the wizard builds with one of those. Heck, that's another no-brainer...can't think of another familiar that's as good as that init bonus without blowing a feat. You get a flying familiar with perfect manuverability and a nice Init bonus? Yeah, that's balanced against a snake or frog.
This coming from the man with a build that hit's multiple splat books, custom and/or setting region spacific items and possibly dragon magazine content? What was that about double standards again?
I'm not saying you can't build a wizard to get init on him. On the other hand, I can build a Fighter build that could get init on a basic wizard by making the fighter dex-based.
Um, no becuase you still have to deal with the whole contingeancy thing and that wizard fully buffed and geared will be at +18 or better.
Going after little niggling things and blowing them out of porportion doesn't detract from the solidity of the build. The 'but I could build a wizard to' finger-pointing doesn't detract from the pure reason that most wizards simply aren't built that way.
Considering that if the wizard goes first he wins as everyone agrees on it's not a little thing.
BTW, Foresight is a div spell, yes? And he's got mind blank? So it can't warn the mage if he gets Init, so logically the mage would still be flat footed, yes?
No, forsight gives no imformation about the opponent at all it just lets the wizard know when he will be in danger so he is ready. Mind blank will have no effect on it.
heh. Brain food. And no one ever did answer if Anticipate Teleport works against Blink spells.
===Aelryinth
No it doesn't. Blink is not a teleport effect it turns you ethereal when you are phased out.
Now you are contradicting yourself, We are talking about a fighter 20 against a wizard 20 per your class balance argument. So why are you assuming the wizard is going for PrC's? This is a strawman argument at best.
This is the Char Opt boards. People don't post wiz/20 builds here. They post multi-PrC builds here with dipping. They don't usually post f/20 melee builds here...they post multiple PrC melee builds, and they vastly prefer gishes.
I posted a f/20 build without any of that. And I've got ten pages of mages coming in to defend their superiority that 'they'll always win.' And now, it seems to have markedly shifted. The argument is now, 'they'll always win initiative, and so NOW they'll always win.' That's quite a huge step up from 'massacre the melee regardless.'
Furthermore, all the comparisons are against an adventuring fighter going up against a duelling build. Hey, anyone can max for arena. But I am talking general service.
I'm not using shapechange in the example becuase it is pure cheese. As for contingencey, get over it. a contingient celerity is standard practice for almost every wizard build now adays becuase it garuntees a win. You use 1 6th level spell slot to garunteee yourself first action which is as good as an I win button for a wizard.
I don't have a problem with contingency. I have a problem with 'contingency solves the problem'. Contingency is perfect in the situation it is built to prevent, by its language. And then, once expended, it's gone.
In an Arena model, this is simply a way of storing spells. In adventuring, this is a thousand times trickier. The contingency can go off at the wrong time, multiple times, before its needed, after its needed, depending on your language...and each time the spell and what it holds has to be recast, eating up resources and cutting into your spellpower, especially if you are a wizard. I mean, subject to a hostile attack can be a seagull divebombing you...poof, contingency goes off. It's also susceptible to dispels, and it doesn't work inside an AMF.
Therefore, it's not a 'blanket solution', anymore then an AMF is against wizards. Without the ability to lock the wizard and hold them in the AMF, the tactic isn't worth a whole lot. Likewise, Contingency isn't going to solve the problem, because you have to define the trigger.
As for celerity 'I win', again, anything which delivers an 'auto-win' means it has to spread across the game, or anyone who doesn't have it, loses. therefore, I don't consider it a valid tactic. The weirdest thing about it is, whoever has celerity with the lowest initiative 'wins' the encounter.
Again you are relying on your strawman. The tactics I presented are standard issue for a 20 lvl wizard with no PrC's or multiclassing. Hell they are in the handbook on this very board.
Indeed. Which means that all spellcasters should be using them, which means they all cancel out, which means moot point? Remember I didn't design him for 1:1 Arena duels. He's meant to be able to get a mage into a Lockdown and keep him there. It's everyone else saying 'but if I'.
If the mage always wins initiatives, EVERYONE else seems to lose, seems to be the consensus. Therefore, my build isn't the problem...it's the auto-win on initiative, which can be traced back to celerity, not contingency. Furthermore, 'auto-win' relies on being 17th level with exposure to a Greater Rod of Maximize and Time Stop...so now we have Time Stop cheese which is really the problem, and everyone else here knows its a broken spell.
And if your caster is using the same 'win' tactic that my party's caster(s) are, who you going to focus on...Lockdown or the caster in my party?
And as a DM, I'd use the tactic to TPK the party, and then have a nice talk with everyone about broken spell combos. Then Celerity would probably have a nice walk off a short pier.
Untrue, Swift spells count against your number of imediate action spells you can take so it's best to use the extra action to cast and leave your immediate action open for reactive spells.
Swift/Quickened spells = the extra action from the belt, because it's a swift action to use the belt, which means you can't quicken the same round you use it, right? So, you really haven't gained all that much as a wizard. It may seem a great thing vs a Rod of Quicken, except you can use the Rod 3/day,right? ANd all in one encounter? Which means the Rod is far, far more flexibile, and your Belt slot is left open for something else...or likely you just won't swap between encounters (which is another cheese tactic, hehe...not to saying that it won't work.)
This coming from the man with a build that hit's multiple splat books, custom and/or setting region spacific items and possibly dragon magazine content? What was that about double standards again?
To9S? I didn't 'dive' into Dragon...someone else pointed that one out, and I specifically cite it as an option, it's not in the core build. This is merely a mocking justification. I do, however, enjoy making spellcasters paw through every huge collection of spells and class abilities trying to come up with a combo that beats what is basically a largely core build. And the spellcasters have been extremely inventive doing just that...moving shooters aiming at a still target, as it were. I even get to use feats (sub-par to begin with) that are considered sub-par in and of themselves! (the mage-slayer chain) and make them shine nicely (and that's from an Arcane book, of all things, which churned out how many dozens of new spells?).
So, it's me watching the spellcasters dig and dig against what is basically a static build, and then they can proclaim that all casters can/will/must have this. Which again is pretty funny to me.
Um, no becuase you still have to deal with the whole contingeancy thing and that wizard fully buffed and geared will be at +18 or better.
A wizard built specifically for initiative, using a familiar that most DM's probably won't allow, gets an init advantage on him. And contingency has its own set fo problems, above. It's definitely not a 'cure-all'...although in an arena, it comes pretty close.
Considering that if the wizard goes first he wins as everyone agrees on it's not a little thing.
In an arena build, probably. Happily, Lockdown is not an arena fighter. If the enemy caster wants to waste his advantage on the melee, my own casters will take him out with similar 'I win' tactics at the same level, at which point he's done his job. The vast majority of wizards are NOT optimized for initiative, because there are other things they want to be good at. Heck, Lockdown isn't optimized for initiative, or he'd be a DEx build! (and I'd have Nerveskitter item on his permanent array.)
And if the caster DOESN'T take him out...then Lockdown locks him down. Which also does his job and leaves me satisfied.
No, foresight gives no imformation about the opponent at all it just lets the wizard know when he will be in danger so he is ready. Mind blank will have no effect on it.
I am the danger he's trying to be warned of (it's informing him of the danger I present). Therefore, how is the spell detecting me?
No it doesn't. Blink is not a teleport effect it turns you ethereal when you are phased out.
So Blink, and Greater Blink, are ways of getting past Thicket and into the reach of Garion's gish build (and into Lockdown's if you are a heavy dmg melee build). Which was the point of my asking the question (as Lockdown does come with a Ring of Blinking). As Garion was asking exactly how I'd overcome his reach advantage to get close, that's yet another 'standard tactic', which is so standard I actually had to have someone explain his defenses for me to assure me that there is more then a couple uses for the RIng that's part of his standard gear!
===============================
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't hate casters, but I just find it amusing how readily people assume casters have the answers to all the questions. Until, of course, those answers are used against them, and they find they don't like the answers at all (it's a lot easier to equip NPC's with broken spell and feat combos then it is with great gear, after all). Or until they go comparison shopping and realize that someone who can perform at an incredible level all the time is at least as good or better then someone who can perform at a lesser level most of the time, and a Godly level occasionally...and it's a lot easier to buff Mr. Incredible to Godly.
================================
For all the Contingency buff guys, hey, imagine yourself an adventuring mage, and just put up what kind of contingency effects you keep around, and at what levels. Most people don't put up 'hair-trigger' wordings, because the hair gets flying pretty quickly, and wastes the contingency. "I have this Contingency just to beat Lockdown" is going to be really funny if you never run into anyone like him, and go through 9 late game levels with your contingency never going off!
==Aelryinth
[b]
So Blink, and Greater Blink, are ways of getting past Thicket...
Thus they are also the two spells that completely negate your lockdown tactic.
[b]
stuff
==Aelryinth
So the entire basis for your argument is "you think that half of the wizards tactics are cheese and won't except them even though they are RAW and RAI". Right gotcha...
Contingency:celerity (not greater) is 4th level and contingency is 6th level. The wizard isn't going to loose initiative all the time since their main purpose is to go first and control combat (hell WOTC directly labels them as arcane controllers in 4E). So at most you will need 2 on the average 4 encounter a day balance. Not a stretch at all and hardly arena exclusive.
Hair triggers: You can set contingency to a spoken word. Speaking is a free action and can be done even while flat footed. And again you arn't going to loose initiative all the time anyway so with carefull wording it's hardly a hair trigger.
Hummingbird familiar: It's about as kosher as custom magic items and only broken in your opinion so your argument is flawed. opinion =/= fact.
If you really want me to use PrC's, you loose automatically. say hello to the incantrix and IotSFV. Let alone planar shepard, denowmerkeeper etc...
Foresight: You are twisting it. mindblank stops divination effects from gaining information about you. it does not stop foresight from saying you are in danger be on guard. It gives no information about you at all.
What you consider cheese does not mean everyone considers it cheese. You are not the DM here and you have no higher valued opinion than anyone else here. Quit acting like your opinion is the final word. It's not. If you don't like tactics then house rule them and be done with it, but do not come to an internet forum and expect everyone else to play by your biased house rules aswell.
Now does anyone have anything left to say to help the build or maybe they have uncovered aweakness not discussed in the last 14 pages.
Oh wait I do, aelryinth what do you think about using those 6 extra and getting the oriental light weapon that still gives 10ft reach use a sheild pick up the feat shelid ward and the feat that let's your armor apply to you touch AC. I think this can help the suprise round survivability and help vs touch attacks in general.
I have read this entire thread from the beginning and I know this has been said at least 15 or 20 times but, the point of the Lock down build was to make a fighter that can compete. We'll that was done after some monetary tweaking after a few pages and now people keep badgering aelryinth saying Well if my caster did this he could win, NA, I win. Well whatever, anything in D&D can be beaten by PUN-PUN or the DM and about aelryinth dismissal or cheese tactics these are his opinions he never said everone should use them. Honestly I agree most of the "I WIN" spells that are talked about are broken Just my opinion. I don't always check this thread and if some one would like to say something to me specifically PM me.
Now does anyone have anything left to say to help the build or maybe they have uncovered aweakness not discussed in the last 14 pages.
Oh wait I do, aelryinth what do you think about using those 6 extra and getting the oriental light weapon that still gives 10ft reach use a sheild pick up the feat shelid ward and the feat that let's your armor apply to you touch AC. I think this can help the suprise round survivability and help vs touch attacks in general.
I am bagering him becuase he is constantly using flawed arguments based soley on opinion and expecting all of us to buy it. It's a good build for fighter 20 but even he has said it would be better with dipping other classes.
I have read this entire thread from the beginning and I know this has been said at least 15 or 20 times but, the point of the Lock down build was to make a fighter that can compete. We'll that was done after some monetary tweaking after a few pages and now people keep badgering aelryinth saying Well if my caster did this he could win, NA, I win. Well whatever, anything in D&D can be beaten by PUN-PUN or the DM and about aelryinth dismissal or cheese tactics these are his opinions he never said everone should use them. Honestly I agree most of the "I WIN" spells that are talked about are broken Just my opinion. I don't always check this thread and if some one would like to say something to me specifically PM me.
Except there was, IMO, a flaw in the purpose of the thread. A single build that can compete at higher levels proves nothing. While its a fantastic build, it doesn't change the "Fighter is Underpowered" or "Casters are Overpowered" argument in the slightest, which is what I thought the build was created for.
I've always figured that casters are cheesy good in part BECAUSE they have cheesy stuff like Shapechange, Celerity, Contingency, and Time Stop. If you took away those spells from a caster, it would be essentially equivalent to taking some choice feats away from a Fighter's bonus feat list. Of COURSE they're going to be weaker. Saying that stuff OUGHT not be used doesn't change the fact that they ARE used.
I have read this entire thread from the beginning and I know this has been said at least 15 or 20 times but, the point of the Lock down build was to make a fighter that can compete. We'll that was done after some monetary tweaking after a few pages and now people keep badgering aelryinth saying Well if my caster did this he could win, NA, I win. Well whatever, anything in D&D can be beaten by PUN-PUN or the DM and about aelryinth dismissal or cheese tactics these are his opinions he never said everone should use them. Honestly I agree most of the "I WIN" spells that are talked about are broken Just my opinion. I don't always check this thread and if some one would like to say something to me specifically PM me.
Now does anyone have anything left to say to help the build or maybe they have uncovered aweakness not discussed in the last 14 pages.
Oh wait I do, aelryinth what do you think about using those 6 extra and getting the oriental light weapon that still gives 10ft reach use a sheild pick up the feat shelid ward and the feat that let's your armor apply to you touch AC. I think this can help the suprise round survivability and help vs touch attacks in general.
In order to understand why people are badgering him, let me give you an analogy. Imagine I'm driving down the road and I see a tricked out minivan in the front lot of a car dealership. I don't usually like minivans, but this one looks sick. I mean cool paint job, all kind of accessories, and it even looks fast! So I swerve in to get some info on this baby. My conversation with the dealer goes something like this:
Me: That's a pretty spiffy looking minivan out there.
Him: Oh ya, top of the line.
Me: So does it just look cool, or does it perform as well?
Him: Oh baby! It's faster than a rocket ship - guaranteed!
Me: Well you mean it's fast, but you don't really mean literally faster than a rocket ship...
Him: Yesiree I do. Faster than a rocket ship!
Me: Rocket ships go thousands of miles an hour.
Him: Well that's only if you put fuel in them.
Me: So your minivan is faster than a rocket ship with no fuel in it?
Him: Of course it is! I mean you usually have to slap a few jet engines on it - maybe one of those warp drives from star trek too, but it gets the job done!
Me: You're serious, aren't you?
Him: Yesiree! So whaddaya think of that minivan?
Me: Well I used to think it was kinda cool...but after talking to you I will never be able to look at it without thinking it's a horrible piece of junk. For god's sake man, it's just a MINIVAN! Goodbye.
(An even easier analogy exists for anyone who has ever experienced a Batman vs. Superman debate. Some people honestly think Batman would kick Superman's but. Their ignorance is the fuel that keeps the debates going.)
Batman would kick superman's butt! Here's why:
1) Batman fights dirty. Always some kryponite hidden away for just this.
2) Batman has money. Money is infinitely useful.
3) Superman is too much of a paladin to just melt Batman's brain with heat vision.
4) See 1-3.
[/amused]
Nice analogy gabrion.
[amused]
Batman would kick superman's butt! Here's why:
1) Batman fights dirty. Always some kryponite hidden away for just this.
2) Batman has money. Money is infinitely useful.
3) Superman is too much of a paladin to just melt Batman's brain with heat vision.
4) See 1-3.
[/amused]
Nice analogy gabrion.
[whinycasterfanatic]
Batman needs items to beat Superman! He can't do it off his own abilities! Therefore, it doesn't count!
Batman having more money than Superman breaks the WBL guidelines!
Roleplaying isn't an excuse for bad balance!
[/whinycasterfanatic]
:D
[whinycasterfanatic]
Batman needs items to beat Superman! He can't do it off his own abilities! Therefore, it doesn't count!
Batman having more money than Superman breaks the WBL guidelines!
Roleplaying isn't an excuse for bad balance!
[/whinycasterfanatic]
:D
:heehee
[artificerfanatic]
Item's are batman's and Ironman's superpowers. Get over it. BTW, superman(gestalt lightning warrior rebalanced cleric) is overpowered.[/artificerfanatic]
I have read this entire thread from the beginning and I know this has been said at least 15 or 20 times but, the point of the Lock down build was to make a fighter that can compete. We'll that was done after some monetary tweaking after a few pages and now people keep badgering aelryinth saying Well if my caster did this he could win, NA, I win. Well whatever, anything in D&D can be beaten by PUN-PUN or the DM and about aelryinth dismissal or cheese tactics these are his opinions he never said everone should use them. Honestly I agree most of the "I WIN" spells that are talked about are broken Just my opinion. I don't always check this thread and if some one would like to say something to me specifically PM me.
Now does anyone have anything left to say to help the build or maybe they have uncovered aweakness not discussed in the last 14 pages.
Oh wait I do, aelryinth what do you think about using those 6 extra and getting the oriental light weapon that still gives 10ft reach use a sheild pick up the feat shelid ward and the feat that let's your armor apply to you touch AC. I think this can help the suprise round survivability and help vs touch attacks in general.
Well, a light weapon would mean change the build to a Dex build, because Power Attack won't stack on, you won't get the higher str mod, and so your dmg will go down. You could pick up the Dex to dmg feat, but then you couldn't be in a thicket stance.
In short, it would radically alter the fundamental power of the build, although once you hit 16 and got assault you'd still be able to do a reliable Lock. The problem is before then your damage is going to suffer, and you won't be able to use Thicket to get as many AoO's if you want the damage.
It IS an option, and specifically it will net you a higher armor class and initiative modifier, and more AoO's. Enough damage to do a lock? We'd have to see. Certainly, it would be an interesting build. I'm not sure what weapon you are speaking of, but if you can't do 25 dmg with it, your Lock is going to be very uncertain.
===Aelryinth
Well, a light weapon would mean change the build to a Dex build, because Power Attack won't stack on, you won't get the higher str mod, and so your dmg will go down. You could pick up the Dex to dmg feat, but then you couldn't be in a thicket stance.
In short, it would radically alter the fundamental power of the build, although once you hit 16 and got assault you'd still be able to do a reliable Lock. The problem is before then your damage is going to suffer, and you won't be able to use Thicket to get as many AoO's if you want the damage.
It IS an option, and specifically it will net you a higher armor class and initiative modifier, and more AoO's. Enough damage to do a lock? We'd have to see. Certainly, it would be an interesting build. I'm not sure what weapon you are speaking of, but if you can't do 25 dmg with it, your Lock is going to be very uncertain.
===Aelryinth
The Kusari-Gama (DMG version, Asian Weapons section)
Thus they are also the two spells that completely negate your lockdown tactic.
No.
Ghost touch gets rid of some of the miss chance. Lockdown's objective to YOU is to get close, not to escape. Even Occult Opportunity doesn't help if the activation occurs out of reach.
the objective is to get close enough to challenge you with attacks, and negate your reach advantage. We've now done that. You asked how he could, and I answered you.
Now, if he gets close enough to AMF your Gish, then the fight is all his, and the build is working correctly, no?
A power Melee using the tactic could likely get close enough to Lockdown to do this, but he could also do it with using a Spring Attack, so the point is kind of moot. Lockdown can be reached...but it can't be done easily. The problem is less reaching him then getting away. He's designed not to let people get away.
===Aelryinth
So the entire basis for your argument is "you think that half of the wizards tactics are cheese and won't except them even though they are RAW and RAI". Right gotcha...
They are 'same old cheese', which is something DM's crackdown on, or get used against the party and wipe them just as easily. So of course I rather dismiss them. I also happen to love the fact that PMP wipes out the polymorph chain, but that's a different thing
Contingency:celerity (not greater) is 4th level and contingency is 6th level. The wizard isn't going to loose initiative all the time since their main purpose is to go first and control combat (hell WOTC directly labels them as arcane controllers in 4E). So at most you will need 2 on the average 4 encounter a day balance. Not a stretch at all and hardly arena exclusive.
And yet, you don't see Imp Init on most wizard builds because they have other things they want more. And Celerity 'I win' tactics lead to them being used against you, and so the spell takes a short walk off a long pier (i.e. every NPC caster has Celerity, so whoever goes last wins initiative...whcih means a high init wizard with Celerity loses?). Really, do you feel like going up against a 'standard' NPC mage with the 'standard tactics' and very few magic items? Sounds like a TPK in a bag to me.
Hair triggers: You can set contingency to a spoken word. Speaking is a free action and can be done even while flat footed. And again you arn't going to loose initiative all the time anyway so with carefull wording it's hardly a hair trigger.
Now, you've moved the target! 1) you aren't going to be able to activate the contingency during a suprise round as you can't take ANY actions. So either it goes off based on prior language, or it does not. In this case, it does not. So, if you are suprised, you are hosed, and when the AMF is around you because you can't see it, you are hosed. See? Contingency language doesn't solve all problems! But 'careful wording' is so wonderfully ambiguous, it obviously can take care of anything, right?
Hummingbird familiar: It's about as kosher as custom magic items and only broken in your opinion so your argument is flawed. opinion =/= fact.
yeah, I can see 100% of all mage builds keeping familiars, 100% of them being hummingbirds, right enough, and all the DM's allowing them.
If you really want me to use PrC's, you loose automatically. say hello to the incantrix and IotSFV. Let alone planar shepard, denowmerkeeper etc...
Even those still have to win initiative, and rely on broken spell combos. They also have very high feat reqs to get into. I can't remember a PrC build like that including Imp Init. Too much other stuff they wanted. And relying on PrC's a sensible DM doesn't allow is like relying on spells a DM won't allow. Exactly what is there about Lockdown that a DM wouldn't allow? I even call out a couple rulings you want to clear with your DM first, but the spell-lovers are blanket assuming everything is permissible.
Foresight: You are twisting it. mindblank stops divination effects from gaining information about you. it does not stop foresight from saying you are in danger be on guard. It gives no information about you at all.
Um, I am going to attack you, and the spell is giving you the information that I am going to attack you. I change my mind. Now the spell is not giving that information. Clearly it is 'gathering information' on me, responding to my desires, not to yours. Ergo, it won't work against a mind blank.
What you consider cheese does not mean everyone considers it cheese. You are not the DM here and you have no higher valued opinion than anyone else here. Quit acting like your opinion is the final word. It's not. If you don't like tactics then house rule them and be done with it, but do not come to an internet forum and expect everyone else to play by your biased house rules aswell.
I can turn that argument right around on the 'anything goes' argument. You even bring in the PrC's that no sane DM will allow, builds that are great and will never exist, but expect me to stop suddenly and wave my hands and not step over the line of busted spells? Who is setting up a double standard, here?
This whole argument has devolved immensely on the caster side. From 'auto-win' against melee, to scrambling to find a way to get out of the Lockdown (and I haven't really seen a good one yet once in the AMF), to becoming immune to the initial attack (by riding around inside a force bubble of all things), to making all mages have hummingbird familiars so they DO win initiative, relying on a spell that in NPC hands will result in TPK's for the whole party and not just the melee...I've been having great fun watching spellcasters tear out their hair over the simple effectiveness of the build. Then they call the build an 'arena build' when it is anything but, just to denigrate it, and then poo-poo it because it doesn't rely on a host of broken mechanics and/or spells to get the job done it needs to.
The amount of stretching is unbeliveable. And yet, nobody is saying they are going to open fights with a DC 30 Dominate Monster and turn the fighter against the rest of the party anymore. It's really strange. INstead, they use telekinesis, despite the fact that it's useless against a 2000 lb Enlarged Fighter, or inside an AMF. Or Grease, despite him having a very respectable Reflex save for being a Fighter +18 or so?) and a locked gauntlet to boot.
And every spellcaster has all these tactics available all the time to defeat him.
that's the funniest part of them all, while Lockdown most certainly has everything he can do available all the time.he's not a solo character and was never designed to be one. He's meant to be highly effective as a member of a party, and he does that job pretty dang well. he's also meant to be NOT ineffective against high level casters, and he does THAT job very well, too.
==Aelryinth
The fighter version of the build is really most effective after level 16 because of the double damage on AoOs making the Stand Still DC so high. If a monk could get a reach weapon (or make his extend his reach with unarmed strikes by a fair bit) he could make the build come into its own a lot sooner. Maybe a monk1/psychic warrior X? Dunno since I've never played psychic warriors before, but it's an idea.
he's not a solo character and was never designed to be one. He's meant to be highly effective as a member of a party, and he does that job pretty dang well. he's also meant to be NOT ineffective against high level casters, and he does THAT job very well, too
Finally something I can agree with ! (i.e. the change from "it hoses casters, everywhere" to "it can, in certain circumstances, hose casters") I happily rest my case.
Has somebody ever statted the build at level, say, 10 complete with items ?
@gabrion : I tried doing it some pages back, but I spent only 15min on it and the resulting BAB was poor ; Warmind may be a better idea (it's especially great with Tashalatora, but that's setting-specific).
On a note unrelated to casters, can anyone here think of any monk weapons that have reach? If so I'm thinking that starting as a monk could actually be better for the original lockdown if they use the decisive strike alternative from PHB II.
The fighter version of the build is really most effective after level 16 because of the double damage on AoOs making the Stand Still DC so high. If a monk could get a reach weapon (or make his extend his reach with unarmed strikes by a fair bit) he could make the build come into its own a lot sooner. Maybe a monk1/psychic warrior X? Dunno since I've never played psychic warriors before, but it's an idea.
I've never found any monk weapons (even exotic) with reach. If you look back ~30 pages in this thread, I posted a level 6 build that tried to get the base of the Lockdown (Thicket of Blades, Reach Weapon, Double Damage, Standstill, Combat Reflexes). Yes, it's almost possible at level 6.
I used the Ebberon feat that made a Longspear a monk weapon. Unfortunately, it was pointed out that this feat specifically required flurry of blows, rather than Decisive Strike. Now, I would argue that RAI would allow a monk to expand his Decisive Strike weapons in the same way as a normal monk would expand his flurry weapons, but RAW this doesn't work. I assume most DMs would allow this (as opposed to the numerous multiclassing and bizarre god worship that such a build entailed).
I've never found any monk weapons (even exotic) with reach. If you look back ~30 pages in this thread, I posted a level 6 build that tried to get the base of the Lockdown (Thicket of Blades, Reach Weapon, Double Damage, Standstill, Combat Reflexes). Yes, it's almost possible at level 6.
I used the Ebberon feat that made a Longspear a monk weapon. Unfortunately, it was pointed out that this feat specifically required flurry of blows, rather than Decisive Strike. Now, I would argue that RAI would allow a monk to expand his Decisive Strike weapons in the same way as a normal monk would expand his flurry weapons, but RAW this doesn't work. I assume most DMs would allow this (as opposed to the numerous multiclassing and bizarre god worship that such a build entailed).
I guess inhuman reach from LoM would do the trick for an unarmed monk, but that requires two feats and is a very restrictive way of accomplishing the goal.
They are 'same old cheese', which is something DM's crackdown on, or get used against the party and wipe them just as easily. So of course I rather dismiss them. I also happen to love the fact that PMP wipes out the polymorph chain, but that's a different thing
opinion, and I don't care about yours. You are not DM in everyones game so it has no baring on a mechanics discussion.
And yet, you don't see Imp Init on most wizard builds because they have other things they want more. And Celerity 'I win' tactics lead to them being used against you, and so the spell takes a short walk off a long pier (i.e. every NPC caster has Celerity, so whoever goes last wins initiative...whcih means a high init wizard with Celerity loses?). Really, do you feel like going up against a 'standard' NPC mage with the 'standard tactics' and very few magic items? Sounds like a TPK in a bag to me.
opinion
[qquote]
Now, you've moved the target! 1) you aren't going to be able to activate the contingency during a suprise round as you can't take ANY actions. So either it goes off based on prior language, or it does not. In this case, it does not. So, if you are suprised, you are hosed, and when the AMF is around you because you can't see it, you are hosed. See? Contingency language doesn't solve all problems! But 'careful wording' is so wonderfully ambiguous, it obviously can take care of anything, right?
Speaking can be done anytime please refer to the DMG followed by yet more opinion
yeah, I can see 100% of all mage builds keeping familiars, 100% of them being hummingbirds, right enough, and all the DM's allowing them.
I am amazed at your ability to read every DM's mind, wait no thats more opinion.
Even those still have to win initiative, and rely on broken spell combos. They also have very high feat reqs to get into. I can't remember a PrC build like that including Imp Init. Too much other stuff they wanted. And relying on PrC's a sensible DM doesn't allow is like relying on spells a DM won't allow. Exactly what is there about Lockdown that a DM wouldn't allow? I even call out a couple rulings you want to clear with your DM first, but the spell-lovers are blanket assuming everything is permissible.
incantrix basically wallks around with persisted everything so initiative is pretty much garunteed. The rest is flaming opinion.
Um, I am going to attack you, and the spell is giving you the information that I am going to attack you. I change my mind. Now the spell is not giving that information. Clearly it is 'gathering information' on me, responding to my desires, not to yours. Ergo, it won't work against a mind blank.
Your interpritation and no where near RAW. The spell never says who's attacking you, where your being attacked, etc... It's basically spider sense saying your in danger.
This whole argument has devolved immensely on the caster side. From 'auto-win' against melee, to scrambling to find a way to get out of the Lockdown (and I haven't really seen a good one yet once in the AMF), to becoming immune to the initial attack (by riding around inside a force bubble of all things), to making all mages have hummingbird familiars so they DO win initiative, relying on a spell that in NPC hands will result in TPK's for the whole party and not just the melee...I've been having great fun watching spellcasters tear out their hair over the simple effectiveness of the build. Then they call the build an 'arena build' when it is anything but, just to denigrate it, and then poo-poo it because it doesn't rely on a host of broken mechanics and/or spells to get the job done it needs to.
The amount of stretching is unbeliveable. And yet, nobody is saying they are going to open fights with a DC 30 Dominate Monster and turn the fighter against the rest of the party anymore. It's really strange. INstead, they use telekinesis, despite the fact that it's useless against a 2000 lb Enlarged Fighter, or inside an AMF. Or Grease, despite him having a very respectable Reflex save for being a Fighter +18 or so?) and a locked gauntlet to boot.
And every spellcaster has all these tactics available all the time to defeat him. that's the funniest part of them all, while Lockdown most certainly has everything he can do available all the time.
he's not a solo character and was never designed to be one. He's meant to be highly effective as a member of a party, and he does that job pretty dang well. he's also meant to be NOT ineffective against high level casters, and he does THAT job very well, too.
==Aelryinth
Flaming opinion from someone who can't stand that 2 core spells (contingency and celerity) hose his build.
Speaking can be done anytime please refer to the DMG followed by yet more opinion
Speaking is a free action that can be used out of turn.
But no free actions at all are possible during the surprise round when a character is flat-footed. Neither are possible immediate actions.
Flaming opinion from someone who can't stand that 2 core spells (contingency and celerity) hose his build.
Celerity is Core? Since when?
I don't see how Contingency would help at all, it won't work inside an AMF.
Some of the contingencies I have seen posted here are so dumb that I could feel my IQ going down just from reading them. I particularly liked those that included spells over level 6 in the contingency and those with conditions that would be triggered by the presence of a hungry mosquito without 30'.
Edit: Dang ninja'd.
Drakinar: I am bagering him becuase he is constantly using flawed arguments based soley on opinion and expecting all of us to buy it. It's a good build for fighter 20 but even he has said it would be better with dipping other classes.
He makes a few assumptions such as, Hey I think I WIN spells are jacked and using feats to increase WBL, I f i missed any tell me. Now do you drakinar think I WIN spells are fair and conducive to good gameplay.
zorgling25: Except there was, IMO, a flaw in the purpose of the thread. A single build that can compete at higher levels proves nothing. While its a fantastic build, it doesn't change the "Fighter is Underpowered" or "Casters are Overpowered" argument in the slightest, which is what I thought the build was created for.
I've always figured that casters are cheesy good in part BECAUSE they have cheesy stuff like Shapechange, Celerity, Contingency, and Time Stop. If you took away those spells from a caster, it would be essentially equivalent to taking some choice feats away from a Fighter's bonus feat list. Of COURSE they're going to be weaker. Saying that stuff OUGHT not be used doesn't change the fact that they ARE used.
Ok this was originally in the Fighters vs Druids thread it just so happens that it also works pretty well against other casters also. Also if you are agreeing that casters are overpowered why are you saying keep it that way just because it is printed that way. I will not say that these spells aren't used but they are used with far less frequency than most people seem to see like half of those spells are 9th level, contingenct has a DM fiat failure section and you know the fact that celerity can and is broken six way from sunday.
Gabrion: the analogy i won't repost.
If youare honestly comparing aelryinth to that used cas salesman so disconnected from reality we just don't need to talk to eack other.
Basically what aelryinth has said most of the time is post a build not a few spells that magically do the job and we can make a comparison.
Also for the hundreth time this is not an arena build, it is meant to make a competitive fighter in a party setting, so even saying so what my caster kills it proves nothing. Lock was made to work in a DMG standard part of four.
As always I'll look at this thread if I can if someone want to say something specifly to me PM me.
PS: Duh Batman wins
Ok and for the people that replied to my post;
Drakinar: I am bagering him becuase he is constantly using flawed arguments based soley on opinion and expecting all of us to buy it. It's a good build for fighter 20 but even he has said it would be better with dipping other classes.
He makes a few assumptions such as, Hey I think I WIN spells are jacked and using feats to increase WBL, I f i missed any tell me. Now do you drakinar think I WIN spells are fair and conducive to good gameplay.
1) PHBII is considered core by the makers of the game and the rpga so I consider it core. If you doubt this try listening to this months podcast where they talk about the false assumption that core bookX isn't core like monster manuals and how they are taking steps to do away with that misconception in 4E
2) "I win" Spells are only as broken as their players DM is dumb. A DM has for more resources avaiable to deal with anything than a PC has. Personally in my game group we keep it very very open with the only caviots being A) no pun pun B) no infinate or nigh-infinate loops and C) what ever teh PC's have access to teh DM does aswell. You can have all teh contingencies, tactics and cheese spell tactics you want, but when your DM is just as good a min/maxer as you, you are still in for one hell of a tough fight. I for one love it when my players use combos, tactics, and tricks against me becuase that means I get to have fun planning the encounter and can use monster combos that most DM's are forced to shelf becuase it would wipe most partys. It's a simple equality really, the more PC's plan and focus on such tactics, the more thought and plannign the DM has to put into his encounters (which frankly is damn easy since the majority of DM's don't play monsters abilitys to the fullest to begin with).
Example: mindblank, doesn't do squat when your opponents are devils with perfect telepathy with eachother. the boss sends in some fodder and by the end of the encounter he knows the subjects fighting tactics and abilitys.
Example 2: Contingent celerity. A damn bad thing when that dragon the mage is facing also has a contingency set to "if someone casts a harmfull spell on me teleport 30ft over the casters head". Thats one OHHH SHHHIII---- moment for even an optimized party.
Combos are only as broken as thier DM's stupidity.
Speaking is a free action that can be used out of turn.
But no free actions at all are possible during the surprise round when a character is flat-footed. Neither are possible immediate actions.
Immediate actions no, they are spacifically called out, but if you look at the glossary inteh back of the PHB which defines flatfooted as well as page 137 which has the flatfooted entry you will see that not taking any actions is never mentioned at all. All both entry state is that you loose your DEX bonus to AC and can make no attacks of oppertunity.
Also from the SRD
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
please tell me where in that I can not take free actions.
Also for the hundreth time this is not an arena build, it is meant to make a competitive fighter in a party setting, so even saying so what my caster kills it proves nothing. Lock was made to work in a DMG standard part of four.
The fact that ONE BUILD, Lockdown, can contribute also says nothing about how Fighters in general can contribute.
Ok Core 3 books that are required to play the game read the back of the PHB II and say that again. It specificaly calls itself a supplement and refrences the 3 core books for use with. As for Pod cast I have not seen them and I will worry about 4E when it comes how about we worry about the edition at hand.
Sorry for the rambling I am tired.
Zorgling with the right combo of feats several fighter builds can contribute,and did I ever say anything about balance in general. So...
He makes a few assumptions such as, Hey I think I WIN spells are jacked and using feats to increase WBL, I f i missed any tell me. Now do you drakinar think I WIN spells are fair and conducive to good gameplay.
You are aware that there are no feats that allow you to exceed the WBL as laid forth in the DMG? It's a self correcting system.
I would also ask that if you don't like "I win" spells, why are you supporting the "I win" spell of AMF in this case? (Not that I consider AMF an I win spell or anything even remotely close.)
Ok this was originally in the Fighters vs Druids thread it just so happens that it also works pretty well against other casters also. Also if you are agreeing that casters are overpowered why are you saying keep it that way just because it is printed that way. I will not say that these spells aren't used but they are used with far less frequency than most people seem to see like half of those spells are 9th level, contingenct has a DM fiat failure section and you know the fact that celerity can and is broken six way from sunday.
Well, if you think this works against druid you're sorely mistaken. If you think this works as an effective tactic against high level creatures, you're also mistaken. It might sometimes work against casters if you take their toys away, and deny them any tactics except sit and cast. All in all, it's a pretty poor tactic. The only novelty is the AMF.
Basically what aelryinth has said most of the time is post a build not a few spells that magically do the job and we can make a comparison.
Also for the hundreth time this is not an arena build, it is meant to make a competitive fighter in a party setting, so even saying so what my caster kills it proves nothing. Lock was made to work in a DMG standard part of four.
First, bull**** it's not an arena build. It was built SPECIFICALLY to take out the druid:
Posting here instead of the Druid vs. Fighter post where they DEMANDED a build and just waved away anything which shattered their image of the invincible Druid.
His idea is a direct result of the druid people pointing out error after error in his tactics, and it's still not effective at stopping a druid. Heck, a druid's animal or elemental companion does the exact same job better, which shows that the fighter is still not competitive in a party setting.
It would be pointless to post builds because there would be so damned many of them that just shut this down.
Ok Core 3 books that are required to play the game read the back of the PHB II and say that again. It specificaly calls itself a supplement and refrences the 3 core books for use with. As for Pod cast I have not seen them and I will worry about 4E when it comes how about we worry about the edition at hand.
Is there even a point to bothering with that argument when the build in question must have a large part of it's material from the PHB2?
Drakinar so if someone dosen't use I WIN spells they are at fault and half the monsters in all books are useless and apply no real challenge by themselves because they don't have acess to the sam I WIN tactics? The DM can kill everyone reguardless of anything at anytime so your tactics only matter as much as the DM makes them matter and your basically saying that if someone can't use one of those few cheesy tactics they have no use in the group.
There are two different arguments going on around here, and they aren't meshing well.
In a theoretical Fighters vs. Casters purely crunch, mechanical discussion, Fighters lose out because casters have cheesy spells. DM Fiat doesn't factor into purely mechanical discussions.
In a practical Fighters vs. Casters discussion, it comes down to how people actually build Fighters, not their potential. Not everyone out there will be able to build Lockdown, and the number of Fighter builds that approach that level of effectiveness is relatively small, compared to the number of effective caster builds that have seen play.
Don't mix the practical and mechanical discussions. In a theoretical discussion, cheese wins the day. In a practical discussion, practicality (obviously) matters. There simply aren't enough builds like Lock to prove that Fighters in an average game will hold their own.
Drakinar so if someone dosen't use I WIN spells they are at fault and half the monsters in all books are useless and apply no real challenge by themselves because they don't have acess to the sam I WIN tactics? The DM can kill everyone reguardless of anything at anytime so your tactics only matter as much as the DM makes them matter and your basically saying that if someone can't use one of those few cheesy tactics they have no use in the group.
No it means that if a party decides to se such tactics a competent DM can handle them without bringing in the ban hammer or labeling them cheese. Regardless of what tactics a party decides to use it is the DM's job to present them with a challenge and teh DM can always do this even with the most optimized of partys. The more creative the player teh more creative the DM has to be. Why is that so hard to understand.
The only time such things are cheese is when they are used in areanas where class balance and the lack there of shines. The classes arn't balanced with each other, the wizard is far above the fighter. Even the designers of the game have said this (again this is why the fighter has more sub levels than any other class out there). There is no point in fighters crying foul over it since it's a known issue and it's not going to get better till 4E when they are replaced with warblades.
Ok Drakinar I tend to run high powered anything goes campaigns where people use strong caster tactics and most of my players are "sufficently" challenged but I have also run games with the same people where I asked then not to use I WIN spells and I would refrain from using the same and alot more options and variety were introduced.
Oh ya even if you replaced fighters with war blades whe Wizard as it is will still wipe the floor with them. Which is why spells need to be hit with the nerf stick and a sembalace of balance needs to be restored.
I don't care and I never said the lock was capable of defeating any build 1 vs 1. I said the Lock build is an effective member of a party. I HATE ARENAS it doesn't matter who is better at PVP if your playing a team game that is the perspective I look at things from. I can see where some people might love PVP, I just don't.
If you've noticed, my last statement has no mention of arena. I use the term "lose out" in a loose sense. I mean effective contribution to a party.
Effectiveness is relative. You can have a Fighter be as effective as you want, and it doesn't make a difference if the rest of the group is 10x more so. Lock may play well next to a somewhat-optimized party, but Lock is 1 Fighter build in a million. Lock doesn't show anything about the effectiveness of a Fighter in a party.
You are aware that there are no feats that allow you to exceed the WBL as laid forth in the DMG? It's a self correcting system.
Correction. Their is Landlord (Stronghold Builders Guidebook), but that money can only be spent on strongholds.
Immediate actions no, they are spacifically called out, but if you look at the glossary inteh back of the PHB which defines flatfooted as well as page 137 which has the flatfooted entry you will see that not taking any actions is never mentioned at all. All both entry state is that you loose your DEX bonus to AC and can make no attacks of oppertunity.
Also from the SRD
please tell me where in that I can not take free actions.
You can take no actions if you are surprised, period. Not even free actions. Talking is a free action. It is a bit different than most free actions because it is the only free action mentioned in the books that can be taken out of turn. But it still cannot be taken if the character is surprised. It has little to do with being flat-footed, even though I mentioned that surprised characters were also flat-footed.
Strangely enough, a character with Combat Reflexes can do AoOs even if surprised. AoOs, you see, aren't actions. (No, I am not even making this up, I don't have enough un-logic ability to make this up).
You can't take no actions if you are surprised, period.
My grammer nazi is trying to come out.
You can't take no actions if you are surprised, period. Not even free actions. Talking is a free action. It is a bit different than most free actions because it is the only free action mentioned in the books that can be taken out of turn. But it still cannot be taken if the character is surprised. It has little to do with being flat-footed, even though I mentioned that surprised characters were also flat-footed.
Strangely enough, a character with Combat Reflexes can do AoOs even if surprised. AoOs, you see, aren't actions. (No, I am not even making this up, I don't have enough un-logic ability to make this up).
Suprised and flatfooted are not the same thing. You can indeed take free actions as per the rules and definition of flatfooted which was what I was responding to.
definition of suprise round as per the SRD:
SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
definition of flat footed as per the SRD
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
No you can not take any actions in the suprise round so long as you are unaware of the attackers. If you are aware of said attackers you are merely flat footed and full under that condition which as you can read does nothing to prevent the taking of a free action such as talking.
So if you are suprised, you are automatically flat footed and if you are flat footed you can not make AoO as per the definition. So no, you can not make AoO with combat reflexes when suprised.
1) PHBII is considered core by the makers of the game and the rpga so I consider it core. If you doubt this try listening to this months podcast where they talk about the false assumption that core bookX isn't core like monster manuals and how they are taking steps to do away with that misconception in 4E
2) "I win" Spells are only as broken as their players DM is dumb. A DM has for more resources avaiable to deal with anything than a PC has. Personally in my game group we keep it very very open with the only caviots being A) no pun pun B) no infinate or nigh-infinate loops and C) what ever teh PC's have access to teh DM does aswell. You can have all teh contingencies, tactics and cheese spell tactics you want, but when your DM is just as good a min/maxer as you, you are still in for one hell of a tough fight. I for one love it when my players use combos, tactics, and tricks against me becuase that means I get to have fun planning the encounter and can use monster combos that most DM's are forced to shelf becuase it would wipe most partys. It's a simple equality really, the more PC's plan and focus on such tactics, the more thought and plannign the DM has to put into his encounters (which frankly is damn easy since the majority of DM's don't play monsters abilitys to the fullest to begin with).
Example: mindblank, doesn't do squat when your opponents are devils with perfect telepathy with eachother. the boss sends in some fodder and by the end of the encounter he knows the subjects fighting tactics and abilitys.
Example 2: Contingent celerity. A damn bad thing when that dragon the mage is facing also has a contingency set to "if someone casts a harmfull spell on me teleport 30ft over the casters head". Thats one OHHH SHHHIII---- moment for even an optimized party.
Combos are only as broken as thier DM's stupidity.
1) Telepathy as natural communication is limited by range, and as printed its not any faster then speech. A set of 500 GP circle rings can duplicate the exact same thing with the party, so I'm not sure where this was going. They still can't read his mind or charm him, or even use fear on him...?
2) One of the better examples of bad contingency wording I've seen. I can see it now...the dragon teleports....right inside the stone of the ceiling over the wizard's head, and kills itself. And all it takes to trigger this is someone casting firefinger on it.
And combo's are as broken as they are allowed to be by DM and Player, tis true. It's just you are arguing that the DM's are always going to allow the combos, which I find damn funny.
===Aelryinth
In order to understand why people are badgering him, let me give you an analogy. Imagine I'm driving down the road and I see a tricked out minivan in the front lot of a car dealership. I don't usually like minivans, but this one looks sick. I mean cool paint job, all kind of accessories, and it even looks fast! So I swerve in to get some info on this baby. My conversation with the dealer goes something like this:
Me: That's a pretty spiffy looking minivan out there.
Him: Oh ya, top of the line.
Me: So does it just look cool, or does it perform as well?
Him: Oh baby! It's faster than a rocket ship - guaranteed!
Me: Well you mean it's fast, but you don't really mean literally faster than a rocket ship...
Him: Yesiree I do. Faster than a rocket ship!
Me: Rocket ships go thousands of miles an hour.
Him: Well that's only if you put fuel in them.
Me: So your minivan is faster than a rocket ship with no fuel in it?
Him: Of course it is! I mean you usually have to slap a few jet engines on it - maybe one of those warp drives from star trek too, but it gets the job done!
Me: You're serious, aren't you?
Him: Yesiree! So whaddaya think of that minivan?
Me: Well I used to think it was kinda cool...but after talking to you I will never be able to look at it without thinking it's a horrible piece of junk. For god's sake man, it's just a MINIVAN! Goodbye.
(An even easier analogy exists for anyone who has ever experienced a Batman vs. Superman debate. Some people honestly think Batman would kick Superman's but. Their ignorance is the fuel that keeps the debates going.)
I think this merits reposting.
Actually, a warblade stands a much better chance. Sudden leap would cover distance better, the counters could cover the low will save, and blood in the water and stormguard warrior are sexy. The warblade can actually kill an animal companion in an AMF.
Insinuating a fighter can't? LOL. Robilar's Gambit +Assault, goodbye mr Dire bear...except my goal is to kill the druid if possible, so the bear is a secondary target. That bear will likely get off something like this.
1) Swing with a claw, hit for x dmg. Attempt to start a grapple.
Ao0 1) Hit back for 42 dmg, +42 to grapple check, so +65ish. Avoids grapple.
AoO 2) Hits with Robilar for 42.
2) Swing and a hit with claw 2! repeat tactics.
AoO 3: 42
Ao04: As you like, if you don't want to burn it to prevent the druid from going somewhere. If there's no druid to worry about, why are you in an AMF in the first place? You'd be Enlarged, hitting for 60 dmg, and the AC is barely going to be able to hit you. You'd also have 7 AoO's, meaning as soon as it starts an attack sequence on you, it kills itself.
In the meantime, if the druid moves, lambast him for 42, in addition to the 42 he took from starting your assault. Without his Con buffs, he's dead in two rounds, at which point his AC becomes a wild animal and meat on the platter.
And all this assuming the rest of your party is standing by doing nothing else while you occupy a potential 'heavy-hitter' completely and utterly.
Heh.
==========================
As for 'other fighter builds', there have been so many viable fighter builds floating around. Any kind of an uber charger build can pull a lockdown, but they do it by exterminating the enemy, not stuffing him into an AMF. An archer build can deal out more dmg more reliably all day then probably any other build, because of Greater Manyshot and/or full attack actions/Rapid Shot all day.
Just because it's the 'same old thing' the fighter pulled at level 6 doesn't mean it can't be just as powerful and effective at level 20. A Full attacking power-attacking fighter with the Leap attack, combat brute and shock trooper combo can deal out damage that is just plain sick on any kind of a charge...and he can do it all day, without having to wait for recharges. Plenty of builds for that 'basic', yet incredibly powerful tactic that never quite goes away.
Chain tripper, with the right gear, can do all sorts of fun stuff even into high levels. There's a knockback build floating around that can push Titans around.
No builds? People are willfully blind, methinks.
====Aelryinth
I think this merits reposting.
Ah, the graduating from broad ignorance to fevered arguments to leaps of twisted logic to personal attacks. it never grows old, does it?
===Aelryinth
Ah, the graduating from broad ignorance to fevered arguments to leaps of twisted logic to personal attacks. it never grows old, does it?
===Aelryinth
No. It's just an excelent analogy.
1) Telepathy as natural communication is limited by range, and as printed its not any faster then speech. A set of 500 GP circle rings can duplicate the exact same thing with the party, so I'm not sure where this was going. They still can't read his mind or charm him, or even use fear on him...?
2) One of the better examples of bad contingency wording I've seen. I can see it now...the dragon teleports....right inside the stone of the ceiling over the wizard's head, and kills itself. And all it takes to trigger this is someone casting firefinger on it.
And combo's are as broken as they are allowed to be by DM and Player, tis true. It's just you are arguing that the DM's are always going to allow the combos, which I find damn funny.
===Aelryinth
1- It was an example of a DM using an encounter set up to get all the info the BBEG needed to figure out all of the parties tactics if they all had mind blank up as I said if you would read the damn post.
2- WOW what type of crappy DM are you that you put a dragon in his own lair with a ceiling so low that it hinders one of the dragons best tactics which is taking wing?
They were examples to show that a DM with half a brain could defuse these so called cheese tactics.
I am not arguing that all DM's will allow them. I am however arguing that not all DM's will ban them as you seem to think. And such house rules have no place in a theoretical game mechanics discussion as here on the boards. If you wish to stick to your opinions then do so but keep them to yourself, they have no place in a logical or mechanics debate.
Reading comprehension FTW. try using it some time. This is yet another example of you not actually reading the bulk of a person's post but looking at the bulleted point's and making comments on them without knowing thier context. All you end up doing is posting giberish that has nothing to do with the post you are quoteing and it makes you look like a troll and jacka$$.
No. It's just an excelent analogy.
Pretty much.
I'm not denying that this build is excellent; for what it does and is, it most certainly is.
But it's in the "what it is and does" that it falls apart.
It was, IIRC, designed as a response to OMFGWTF DURID=t3hPwnz00rz!!1!
And in that, it succeeds excellently. Heck, it's pretty darn good as a front line melee fighter too, and can contribute to the party moderately effectively.
But.
It's still a fighter, and some people find that distateful. Not only that, but it's kind of a one trick pony. A decent archer will screw it. A Cleric archer will screw it.
EDIT: Just reread it very carefully, and it's kind of screwed until 16th level.
Paying for it to begin with so you can own for the last four levels does not happy players or good optimization make.
For all that, I'd play one.
EDIT: Maybe.
So if you are suprised, you are automatically flat footed and if you are flat footed you can not make AoO as per the definition. So no, you can not make AoO with combat reflexes when suprised.
Combat Reflexes is an exception to the rule:
Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal
A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Remember also: AoOs are not actions.
It was, IIRC, designed as a response to OMFGWTF DURID=t3hPwnz00rz!!1!
And in that, it succeeds excellently. Heck, it's pretty darn good as a front line melee fighter too, and can contribute to the party moderately effectively.
No, it really doesn't work at keeping the druid down. In fact the druid's animal companions can pull this tactic off better than the fighter can. As for being effective as a front line fighter? Heck no. He has to take a Full round action to keep Overpowering Assault up, otherwise his damage is too weak to be useful, but if he does keep Overpowering Assault up, he's not going anywhere with only a 5' step each round.
You also point out that it only becomes effective at 16th level when it picks up Overpowering Assault. Heck, let's go back and look at the tactics:
For a standard combat, you probably want to draw a Potion of enlarge as part of a Move action, then activate your Belt of Battle for an extra Move action. Move forward until your enemies(?) are in proper position (not a charge). Once they are, use a full attack action to initiate an Overpowering Assault, and clock one for 50 pts dmg and force a Massive Damage save. (This also might force a Knockdown save, so +30 or they are tripped.)
He's doing he following:
• Activating Boost of Speed as a free action.
• Move Action.
• Activating Belt of Battle as a free action for a move action.
• Move Action.
• Drawing a Potion as part of a move action - which prevents him from use the Spiked Chain since it's a 2 handed weapon, or if he drinks it, will prevent anything over than a single normal attack.
• Uses a full round action to activate Overpowering Assault.
He can do that 3 times per day before the belt of battle is used up, fewer if he uses it more. He also can't make any attacks, AoO, standard or full if he draws the potion and doesn't use it, and can't activate Overpowering Assault if he does drink the potion. He can't Overpowering Assault anyways, since it's a full round action that he doesn't have.
His other tactic?
The tactic is simple. Click your heels, activate haste, and perform a move up next to them. RIGHT next to them…over top of them is nice. Activate your AM field via the torc.
If you have a Belt of battle, use it instead to get a free SA so you can use Pierce Magical Protection. Activate Boots of Teleportation, if you need them, or perform a double move with your SA, if needed. Ideally, your Hasted movement should get you close enough. Any AC increasing buff spells, which is pretty much all the really good ones, go instantly away (and you ignore their AC effect for this attack, too).
Then unleash your Full attack (Overpowering Assault), and put up the AM field. You might still have to do the AM Field before the Full Attack…that’s fine. The Caster is still hosed.
Which is:
• Activating Boost of Speed as a free action.
•*Move Action.
• Activate the AMF.
Or "if you have a belt of battle":
• Activating Boost of Speed as a free action.
•*Move Action.
• Activating Belt of Battle as a free action for a standard action.
•*Activate Boots of Teleportation or Move again.
• Standard action attack for PMP.
- out of actions-
So next round he can do one of the following:
Put up the AMF or take a full round action to get Overpowering Assault running.
So of his presented tactics, only 1 does anything even remotely effective the first round (move up and activate the AMF), and 1 is impossible to do (move twice and Overpowering Assault the same round). Which I suppose is just another time where we have to point out the illegalities of the build.
Combat Reflexes is an exception to the rule:
Remember also: AoOs are not actions.
Well, they are actions (free actions I believe), just not very well defined ones. Things that prevent you from taking actions do stop you from taking AoO.
As for 'other fighter builds', there have been so many viable fighter builds floating around. Any kind of an uber charger build can pull a lockdown, but they do it by exterminating the enemy, not stuffing him into an AMF.
Which if you'll notice aren't fighter builds, they dip fighter for maybe 4 levels, or typically less.
An archer build can deal out more dmg more reliably all day then probably any other build, because of Greater Manyshot and/or full attack actions/Rapid Shot all day.
Not even close to the sickness that a ranger can pull off, or a cleric archer can. Also nothing in there that's limited to the fighter featwise.
Just because it's the 'same old thing' the fighter pulled at level 6 doesn't mean it can't be just as powerful and effective at level 20. A Full attacking power-attacking fighter with the Leap attack, combat brute and shock trooper combo can deal out damage that is just plain sick on any kind of a charge...and he can do it all day, without having to wait for recharges. Plenty of builds for that 'basic', yet incredibly powerful tactic that never quite goes away.
Actually, those are Barbarian and Frenzied Berserker builds you're thinking of. You don't see fighters filling those roles because they're subpar at it in comparison.
Chain tripper, with the right gear, can do all sorts of fun stuff even into high levels. There's a knockback build floating around that can push Titans around.
Well, the gattling tripper is very old and out of date, and even then it was noted that it would be better with fewer levels of fighter or other classes. The knockback build I would suspect doesn't take more than 8 levels of fighter, but it might be the only real "fighter only" build out of everything you're imagining.
If there are so many of them, please point us to them. The lock down isn't just fighting the druid anymore. He's fighting everybody but pun-pun! At the same time!
If there are so many of them, please point us to them. The lock down isn't just fighting the druid anymore. He's fighting everybody but pun-pun! At the same time!
No he's not. The Fighter as a class is compared against the Druid as a class. And the Fighter as a class includes god-awful builds that take Toughness, Skill Focus, and EWP in weapons he'll never use. Druid builds on the other hand, can be grouped into builds that take Natural Spell, and those that don't. Other feats matter, but their effect on the Druid's power is minimal in comparison to Natural Spell.
The reason the Druid is overpowered and the Fighter underpowered isn't because specific Druid X can beat specific Fighter Y, but because its so EASY to screw up a Fighter by botching your feat selection, and so easy to NOT screw up a Druid by just taking Natural Spell.
Human Druid 20, "Bob":
Feats: Toughness x6, Natural Spell
It probably won't beat Lockdown, but it can still beat a good portion of all Fighter builds that have ever seen play. It's also certainly suboptimal to almost EVERY Druid build that has ever existed, with the exception of those anomalies that don't take Natural Spell.
Bob > Most Fighters
Bob < Most Druids, ergo:
Most Druids > Most Fighters
If there are so many of them, please point us to them. The lock down isn't just fighting the druid anymore. He's fighting everybody but pun-pun! At the same time!
No, he's fighting any one caster enemy at a time...probably of a few levels lower than him, and he's still losing.
No he's not. The Fighter as a class is compared against the Druid as a class. And the Fighter as a class includes god-awful builds that take Toughness, Skill Focus, and EWP in weapons he'll never use. Druid builds on the other hand, can be grouped into builds that take Natural Spell, and those that don't. Other feats matter, but their effect on the Druid's power is minimal in comparison to Natural Spell.
The reason the Druid is overpowered and the Fighter underpowered isn't because specific Druid X can beat specific Fighter Y, but because its so EASY to screw up a Fighter by botching your feat selection, and so easy to NOT screw up a Druid by just taking Natural Spell.
Human Druid 20, "Bob":
Feats: Toughness x6, Natural Spell
It probably won't beat Lockdown, but it can still beat a good portion of all Fighter builds that have ever seen play. It's also certainly suboptimal to almost EVERY Druid build that has ever existed, with the exception of those anomalies that don't take Natural Spell.
Bob > Most Fighters
Bob < Most Druids, ergo:
Most Druids > Most Fighters
Well, since the fighter is all about feats that's quite an unfair comparison. Bob gets 18 feats at least. Choosing the feats in the right way is very important for him.
In the other hand, I could claim that most druids choose their daily spells badly and waste their slots with stuff such as speak with plants, puting them at a disadvantage.
Bob, on the other hand, doesn't need to bother choosing his spells daily.
Druids need not only to pour trough suplementes and core. They also need to read fiend folio, monster manuals, etc, etc. Now that's a LOT more bookkeeping.
And by bookeeping I mean possibility to go wrong. They may take a weak animal companion that'll go down in one hit. They may misread and wildshape into something worthless in the situation.
The druids and casters here are the creme of la creme, as good as they can be whitout Prc. But believe me, for every fighter who picks his feats poorly there is a caster who has chosen his spells badly. And then the fight between both is quite fair.
Yes, spells can be changed in the next day. But there just may not be another day.
In the other hand, I could claim that most druids choose their daily spells badly and waste their slots with stuff such as speak with plants, puting them at a disadvantage.
You can't permanently screw up spell selection. Spells can be reselected each day. You CAN permanently screw up feat selection.
Druids need not only to pour trough suplementes and core. They also need to read fiend folio, monster manuals, etc, etc. Now that's a LOT more bookkeeping.
Druids are actually one of the classes that require the FEWEST splatbooks to build well for the following reasons:
1) I have yet to find a feat that is as vital to a good Druid as Natural Spell
2) The only Druid PrC that is substantially better than Druid 20 is the Planar Shepherd. And if you bring the Planar Shepherd into the argument, Fighters don't stand a chance.
3) While spells and Wild Shape forms are nice, the core choices are much better than a Fighter's core feat choices.
And by bookeeping I mean possibility to go wrong. They may take a weak animal companion that'll go down in one hit. They may misread and wildshape into something worthless in the situation.
All temporary. A bad feat choice screws a Fighter for life. Even with retraining, that's one change per level.
The druids and casters here are the creme of la creme, as good as they can be whitout Prc. But believe me, for every fighter who picks his feats poorly there is a caster who has chosen his spells badly. And then the fight between both is quite fair.
A caster who finds his spells inadequate can remedy the error the next day. The earliest a Fighter can remedy the change is the next level, if ever.
You've got a bazillion diferent choices as a druid. you may wildshape, cast one of your spells....But you can't do all of it at the same time. Choose wrong and the counter attack may be deadly. Try to grapple and find out he's a wrestling machine. Throw a spell and cry as it does little harm.
Bob, the locker, on the other hand, finds an enemy...And doesn't really care about much else. He jumps into the fray doing what he does best. Unless the enemy knew exactly what bob was up to he's going to be hit hard.
More choices doesn't stand exactly for more power. It also stands for greater chances to go wrong.
Ok, you're a druid. In front of you appears a guy with armor and a chain, or maybe just a guy with armor and a weapon. He may be Bob the locker. He may be a cleric. He may be a crusader. He may be a disguised wizard. He may even be another druid with an hat of disguise.
You've got a bazillion diferent choices as a druid. you may wildshape, cast one of your spells....But you can't do all of it at the same time. Choose wrong and the counter attack may be deadly. Try to grapple and find out he's a wrestling machine. Throw a spell and cry as it does little harm.
Bob, the locker, on the other hand, finds an enemy...And doesn't really care about much else. He jumps into the fray doing what he does best. Unless the enemy knew exactly what bob was up to he's going to be hit hard.
More choices doesn't stand exactly for more power. It also stands for greater chances to go wrong.
You have this exactly wrong. More tactics (strong stuff like wildshape and spellcasting as opposed to weak choices such as tripping vs grappling) are always more power. More tactics means more escapes to attack again from your opponent's weak spot. Fewer tactics means you're a one trick pony that utterly and completely fails against anyone with the proper defence (blink for instance).
More choices doesn't stand exactly for more power. It also stands for greater chances to go wrong.
Except suppose you run into something that Bob the locker isn't equipped to deal with. Bob the locker charges in and attacks ineffectively. What now?
Having options may leave more ways for things to go wrong, but if you make the wrong choice, at least its not un-fixable. Being a one-trick pony means that if that one trick doesn't work, your screwed 5 different ways.
Well, they are actions (free actions I believe), just not very well defined ones. Things that prevent you from taking actions do stop you from taking AoO.
No. A character can only take free actions in his round, AoOs aren't free actions.
Of course things that prevent you from taking actions usually stop you from taking AoOs, but that is because things that prevent you from taking actions also prevent you from threatening anyone, among other things
No threatening = No AoOs
No. A character can only take free actions in his round, AoOs aren't free actions.
Quite incorrect. There is nothing inherent in free actions that restricts them to your turn, though it is generally assumed that you take them on your turn.
In example:
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Quite incorrect. There is nothing inherent in free actions that restricts them to your turn, though it is generally assumed that you take them on your turn.
Not that it's not a sideline or anything, but, as silly is it seems to me to say that a free action is restricted to your turn, that is indeed the case. From here:
As noted in Part One, a free action is something you do during your turn that takes hardly any time at all.
(Bolding mine.)
and
You cannot use a free action during another creature's turn. Speaking is an exception; you can speak during another creature's turn (see page 144 in the Player's Handbook).
From that same source, we see that AoO are nonactions, and not free actions:
Kinds of Nonactions
As noted in Part One, a nonaction is something that effectively takes you no time at all, but still requires some attention or effort. The rules don't go into any detail about the kinds of nonactions in the game, but for our purposes they fall into three categories:
Aggressive Nonactions: There's only one activity that falls into this category: the attack of opportunity. An attack of opportunity is similar to the attack action. In general, if you cannot use a standard action during your turn, you also cannot make an attack of opportunity during someone else's turn. When the notes on conditions in Part One say that you cannot act (for example, when stunned), you cannot make an attack of opportunity.
It's worth noting here that to threaten a space on the battlefield you must be able to make an armed attack into that space (see Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity). If you cannot use at least a standard action you cannot make an armed attack into any space.
All that said, the statement that you cannot make an AoO if you cannot use a standard action during your turn appears to me to imply that even with Combat Reflexes, you cannot make an AoO if you're surprised, since you can't take a standard action and therefore don't threaten any squares. It's not clear to me that Combat Reflexes allows you to threaten when you're surprised, though it could be swept under the rug by that unfortunate phrase "in general."
Anyways, I concede the point.
Editing on:
I would just love to see the caster build who has an elder elemental as companion, is great archer, with celerity and contigency prepared plus several maneuvers:P
Bard 7/Bonded Summoner 3/Sublime Chorde 1/Bonded Summoner +2/Jade Phoenix Mage 7
Or the simpler:
Wizard 3/Druid 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Druid +3
Originally Posted by Leo
I would just love to see the caster build who has an elder elemental as companion, is great archer, with celerity and contigency prepared plus several maneuvers
Bard 7/Bonded Summoner 3/Sublime Chorde 1/Bonded Summoner +2/Jade Phoenix Mage 7
Or the simpler:
Wizard 3/Druid 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Druid +3
*facepalms*
This is the optimization forums. Should've seen that one coming.
I was thinking a simple tweak to the build could be swapping out several levels of Fighter for something else. Just swapping out 2 to 4 levels of Fighter with 1 or 3 levels of Factotum (3 gets the PC Cunning Defennse and Brains over Brawn which would bump up initiative checks for ensuring the PC goes first in more combats) particularly with a single level dip of Marshal for the Motivate Intelligence Aura would do a lot for the build. Might want to adjust the array around for that though.
Just a single level dip of Factotum would also be nice for taking the Oriental Adventures Iaijutsu Focus skill and occassionally catching an opponent flat footed and doing considerable extra damage plus gaining some limited utility in every combat using Cunning Insight or Cunning Knowledge with the way inspiration points recover.
The UA/SRD Bloodlines are easy to buy down at low levels for what they provide over various levels. Taking something like a Major Bloodline Celestial or an Intermediate Bloodline like Elemental, Fire nets the PC a few feats and specials at a relatively minor experience point cost over a 20 level career.
Actually, a warblade stands a much better chance. Sudden leap would cover distance better, the counters could cover the low will save, and blood in the water and stormguard warrior are sexy. The warblade can actually kill an animal companion in an AMF.
Huh? Say what? This is the CO Board right? We're not seriously considering a wizard that stays within charging distance, targets saving throws, and engages in melee combat to demonstrate the merits of a warblade over a fighter are we?
A warblade stands no chance against an optimized wizard, just like any other non-caster that relies primarily on melee damage to defeat their opponent. And before someone comes in with some tricked out melee build, remember to include the tricked out wizard build as well. No contest. (Consider it a challenge if you want.)
The feat synergies in this build are very nice, and I disagree that it doesn't perform until level 16. Obviously it performs differently, but he is still an AoO fighter. A reach fighter until level 6 when he gets Standstill and starts the battlefield control.
I like the build a lot (though I'm surprised to see it come from Aelryinth after debating about fighters with him
).Not even close to the sickness that a ranger can pull off, or a cleric archer can. Also nothing in there that's limited to the fighter featwise.
What sickness would that be? What does a cleric archer do? As far as I know, he enchants his bow and takes advantage of his high wisdom with Zen Archery. What's so sick about that? And the ranger? You must be referring to spells. Which ones in particular?
EDIT: Some suggestions...
Instead of a Dispelling weapon, have you considered a Suppression weapon?
A Greater Dispelling weapon dispels at caster level 15 as Greater Dispel Magic, but only 3/day. A Suppression weapon dispels as Dispel Magic at caster level 15 but (as a melee weapon) has no limit on uses. Both are +2 weapon enhancements. Suppression seems better to me because the only difference between Dispel and Greater Dispel is that the latter can remove curses. Not a big deal in this case. (Suppression is found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.)
Also, Dust of Negation may be better than a Torc of Antimagic depending on your reach. You throw the dust down and everything with 10' of where it lands is affected by an antimagic field. It persists for 2 minutes. If you're outside of the range of effect, you'll be able to lock your enemy down within the field, while keeping your own buffed-up statistics. I think the dust costs around 3,300 gold, and it's in Lords of Madness.
I was also wondering how you got your trip modifier up so high. What is allowing you to add your BAB to the check?
I was also wondering how you got your trip modifier up so high. What is allowing you to add your BAB to the check?
Yes, I think he made a mistake there.
Also, I think someone mentioned the 10'-step (instead of 5'-step) with high enough Tumble is from 3.0. Is that true ? I'm considering making a Lock-alike character and would like to use it, but I don't know where it's from. 3.0 would make it illegal unfortunately.
edit: Nevermind, found it in the Scout Handbook
DC 40 Tumble check – Allows you to take a 10-ft. step instead of a 5-ft. step. This rule may not be in use, depending on the DM, as it comes from Oriental Adventures.
The Gauntlets of War (CC) require you to use your deity's favored weapon, and the only deity I could find with the spiked chain as a favored weapon is Kossuth (FR). I didn't spend too much time searching though. Is there an appropriate deity in Greyhawk ? In Eberron ?
[I'm not a big fan of Short Haft.]
Huh? Say what? This is the CO Board right? We're not seriously considering a wizard that stays within charging distance, targets saving throws, and engages in melee combat to demonstrate the merits of a warblade over a fighter are we?
A warblade stands no chance against an optimized wizard, just like any other non-caster that relies primarily on melee damage to defeat their opponent. And before someone comes in with some tricked out melee build, remember to include the tricked out wizard build as well. No contest. (Consider it a challenge if you want.)
The feat synergies in this build are very nice, and I disagree that it doesn't perform until level 16. Obviously it performs differently, but he is still an AoO fighter. A reach fighter until level 6 when he gets Standstill and starts the battlefield control.
Dude... .00000001% chance is still bigger than .000000001% chance.
And before someone comes in with some tricked out melee build, remember to include the tricked out wizard build as well. No contest. (Consider it a challenge if you want.)
Melee optimized build. crap weapons. Total wealth invested in AMF's. Wizard dies.
Accepted?
Melee optimized build. crap weapons. Total wealth invested in AMF's. Wizard dies.
Wizard 18/Archmage 2
Enlarged AMF with a single 5' hole in the center for himself. You run up, and suddenly stop as all your equipment and buffs are rendered inert, and done so before your normal sized AMF even comes into play, while at the same time leaving the Wizard fully buffed and with items up.
For even more fun make the wizard flying inside his AMF.
Or just Iot7FV.
Accepted?
Melee optimized build. crap weapons. Total wealth invested in AMF's. Wizard dies.
...............
And how are you getting the wizard in the AMF?
Wzard 13 / initiate of the seven fold veils 7
Prismatic spells arn't effected by AMF's
AMF is an emination so cover blocks it's effects.
The personal wardings from IotSFV cover you completely.
Wizard 18/Archmage 2
Enlarged AMF with a single 5' hole in the center for himself. You run up, and suddenly stop as all your equipment and buffs are rendered inert, and done so before your normal sized AMF even comes into play, while at the same time leaving the Wizard fully buffed and with items up.
For even more fun make the wizard flying inside his AMF.
I don't think you understand how AMF's work. The fighter runs up and kills the wizard, as all the wizards buffs are suppressed.
A 5' hole does not help, as AMF's overlap. The wizards hole is covered as the fighter closes.
...............
And how are you getting the wizard in the AMF?
How is the wizard getting the fighter?
Hey, lets take this to another thread.
I don't think you understand how AMF's work. The fighter runs up and kills the wizard, as all the wizards buffs are suppressed.
A 5' hole does not help, as AMF's overlap. The wizards hole is covered as the fighter closes.
I don't think you do.
You activate that AMF? The wizard casts Fly and moves away and up, you can't catch the wizard, he kills you.
You start with the AMF up? And within a single move's distance? And you won initiative compared to the wizard? You're stacking the deck and taking an implausible scenario.
The Wizard is flying in his AMF? Doesn't matter if your fields are up, you can't fly to get to him. He kills you.
You move up then activate the AMF? Can't, to be with in range of the mage for your AMF, you have to be in his, thus meaning you can't use any magic items. The Wizard flys away, and kill you.
See a pattern here yet?
How is the wizard getting the fighter?
Hey, lets take this to another thread.
This has been discussed in detail in this very thread so no need to turn another thread into a flamewar. Try understanding game mechanics before posting and above all actually read the thread you are posting in before hand.
Yes, I think he made a mistake there.
Drats! I was hoping it was some mechanic I overlooked.
Dude... .00000001% chance is still bigger than .000000001% chance.
Very true.
Unfortunately, we're talking about 0% here. And 0% is not bigger than 0%.
Melee optimized build. crap weapons. Total wealth invested in AMF's. Wizard dies.
Well, thank you for accepting the challenge at the very least.
But this fails.
Not only is your warrior likely underpowered due to lack of gear, but the AMF doesn't really hinder the wizard unless he's inside of it. And that can only happen if the fighter goes first.
Unfortunately, a tricked out wizard can have a very nice initiative modifier, which is compounded by the fact that your warrior has no equipment outside of antimagic generating gear. The wizard will likely win. And that's without Foresight/Celerity.
The wizard goes first, flees to the sky, and orders some extraplanar creature already bound to him to fight you. Then he starts slinging twinned and maximized orb spells.
Drats! I was hoping it was some mechanic I overlooked.
Very true.
Unfortunately, we're talking about 0% here. And 0% is not bigger than 0%.
Well, thank you for accepting the challenge at the very least.
But this fails.
Not only is your warrior likely underpowered due to lack of gear, but the AMF doesn't really hinder the wizard unless he's inside of it. And that can only happen if the fighter goes first.
Unfortunately, a tricked out wizard can have a very nice initiative modifier, which is compounded by the fact that your warrior has no equipment outside of antimagic generating gear. The wizard will likely win. And that's without Foresight/Celerity.
The wizard goes first, flees to the sky, and orders some extraplanar creature already bound to him to fight you. Then he starts slinging twinned and maximized orb spells.
Eh? Foresight, level 9th spell that some arcane casters cast, at levels 17 and up (last 20% of the game).
Archmage and Iot7V, two specific PrCs.
They talk as if all casters are level 17-20 wizards/archmage or wizards/Iot7V with Foresight, when actually barely 0.00000001% are. And those are the ones that can survive to an AMF.
It is like saying all warriors automatically have spent a feat in Iron Hearth Surge and also immune to AMF.
And with a supreme effort... the wizard AMF is always, all the time, by all warrior, dispelled. SPLAT.
But we already know some posters are full of crap.
Eh? Foresight, level 9th spell that some arcane casters cast, at levels 17 and up (last 20% of the game).
No one mentioned Foresight. We're talking about initiative purely by the numbers. In an AMF, initiative will be lower, likely much much lower than someone outside one.
Archmage and Iot7V, two specific PrCs.
They talk as if all casters are level 17-20 wizards/archmage or wizards/Iot7V with Foresight, when actually barely 0.00000001% are. And those are the ones that can survive to an AMF.
The trick I listed could be done as soon as 14th level, and the Iot7FV can be done as soon as 11th level. It's also replaceable by a feat, and no more common than, oh say, some random fighter carrying around an AMF item I'd say.
As for how many are, o you honestly think those are the only options? Those were the quick and easy things. No work, no rules, and one of them core only.
It is like saying all warriors automatically have spent a feat in Iron Hearth Surge and also immune to AMF.
And with a supreme effort... the wizard AMF is always, all the time, by all warrior, dispelled. SPLAT.
If you accept that 'ruling' on Iron Heart surge, you might as well allow Pun-Pun, because that's literally the power level that it ends up. With a roar of effort I transcend mortality!
But we already know some posters are full of crap.
Like you?
But we already know some posters are full of crap.
Well at least you believe in truth in advertising.
Try reading some of the CO board posts and you will see that foresight and celerity are staple spells here and any PrC advise for a wizard almost always is answered by Incantrix and/or IotSFV.
But who am I to stop the flow of numbers and statistics pulled out of one's backside. So please, continue to post rampent flaming opinion and try to pass it off as fact.
By 11th level the fighter has no chance at all. contingient celerity (4th level version, provides 1 standard action) will ensure the wizard goes first no matter what.
Like you?
First off, if you accept that ruling on Iron Heart surge, you might as well allow Pun-Pun, because that's literally the power level that it ends up.
Second, the trick I listed could be done as soon as 14th level, and the Iot7FV can be done as soon as 11th level.
As for Foresight, no one mentioned that. We're talking about initiative purely by the numbers. In an AMF, initiative will be lower, likely much much lower than someone outside one.
Of course AMF is an emanation, so holding up a bedsheet in front of you gives you complete immunity to it for anyone, 1st level commoner or 20th level wizard.
Ohnoes, Iron Heart Surge, 3rd level maneuver level 5 character can take = Punpun!
Yes, all characters carry around lead sheets to get full cover. In their back pockets, too.
The tricks with Archmage and Iot7V only shows us it is possible to build a few specific caster able to survive the Lockdown-style build. They are bound to be very rare casters, though, so it can hardly be called a weakness of the build. They are not even particularly optimized casters, there are better PrCs than those. They are just anti-AMF builds.
I am pretty sure I it is easy to build a character able to destroy any build posted here (except maybe Punpun).
Nerveskitter is level 1. Along with Improved Initiative and a Hummingbird familiar (both at level 1 as well), we're talking about a +13 to initiative before adding your dexterity modifier. That's likely another +2 for a total of +15. At level 1.
In all honesty though, I think the most important factor is what the wizard has done with his spells before hand (long term buffs, bound creatures, and contingencies) and starting distance. These factors can make initiative just about irrelevant.
But just to be clear, I am not claiming that any caster can easily avoid Lockdown. I'd wager that most won't expect the danger when he wins initiative and starts his combo.
My point was simply a rebuttal to the claim that warblades fare better than fighters against casters. Knowing the potential that a wizard has to pwn, I can't accept that as true.
Wizard 18/Archmage 2
Enlarged AMF with a single 5' hole in the center for himself. You run up, and suddenly stop as all your equipment and buffs are rendered inert, and done so before your normal sized AMF even comes into play, while at the same time leaving the Wizard fully buffed and with items up.
For even more fun make the wizard flying inside his AMF.
Or just Iot7FV.
AMF 10'Radius normally enlarged to 20' radius with a 5' hole in the center for himself. Maybe he is flying, maybe he is Iot7FV, certainly seems to be getting a lot of free actions.
The fighter is mind blanked at this level as per the OP. For some reason you don't seem to be aware that two antimagic fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other, while your wizard AMF has a hole in it so the fighter's AMF should effect you and your gear according to what I read in the spell description for antimagic field, so you the wizard lose your buffs and items.
That is all it takes to kill your PC one mistake with the lock down build or most other high level encounters, one mistake, one miscalculation and you generally die. That's why we have parties. Teams to complement each other.
Now we'll probably get to see more posts about how your contingency was specially worded against AMFs and what you were doing with all those free actions so the lock down fighter couldn't really debuff you because you weren't really going to stick around and kill him just teleport away, after the fact and despite your posted actions.
This isn't a one on one dueiling thread and despite having the opportunity to read page after page regarding the lock down fighter your PC made a miscalculation which would normally kill him in this situation.
Ohnoes, Iron Heart Surge, 3rd level maneuver level 5 character can take = Punpun!
Well, since use of the ruling allows one to get Pun-Pun with it, yes. Since it can negate any 'effect' or 'condition,' it's basically free reign to do anything with it. Negate the condition of mortality? Sure. Negate the effect of not eating? Sure. Negate the condition of not being all knowing? Done!
Yes, all characters carry around lead sheets to get full cover. In their back pockets, too.
Lead sheet? Do you try to completely ignore what everyone has been saying and make up your own version of it, or is it just a natural thing for you?
The tricks with Archmage and Iot7V only shows us it is possible to build a few specific caster able to survive the Lockdown-style build. They are bound to be very rare casters, though, so it can hardly be called a weakness of the build. They are not even particularly optimized casters, there are better PrCs than those. They are just anti-AMF builds.
Actually quite the opposite. Iot7FV is a heavily used PrC, and Archmage is probably more common since it's core. And neither of those are AMF in build intent.
That you call them unoptimized after having been given only barest of details... well, I think that speaks for itself on your objectiveness and ability to reason.
I am pretty sure I it is easy to build a character able to destroy any build posted here (except maybe Punpun).
I'm pretty sure any caster can defeat an AMF spell with a sheet of cloth, or good cloak.
you don't seem to be aware that two anti-magic fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other,
You missed the point of the shaped AMF. The fighter, per the OP, does not activate the AMF until he has the mage in his lock-down range, The wizard has a shaped AMF up which is covering the fighter. If the fighter is in the AMF he can not activate his AMF item because it's abilities are suppressed.
As for why the wizard has buffs up and why we are ignoring mindblank. You said yourself, this is not an arena match and relying on mindblank to keep a decently played wizard from knowing where you are is akin to saying I am holding a buckler so you can never land a hit on me".
AMF 10'Radius normally enlarged to 20' radius with a 5' hole in the center for himself. Maybe he is flying, maybe he is Iot7FV, certainly seems to be getting a lot of free actions.
No actions required. In fact all we're assuming is that the wizard/archmage has the AMF already up and running, just like the fighter is with mindblank. Possibly that he has his other daily buffs to, what ever those might be.
The fighter is mind blanked at this level as per the OP. For some reason you don't seem to be aware that two antimagic fields sharing the same space have no effect on each other, while your wizard AMF has a hole in it so the fighter's AMF should effect you and your gear according to what I read in the spell description for antimagic field, so you the wizard lose your buffs and items.
Except you're not reading the fighter. Or assuming he starts with in 30', and won initiative, and already activated his 1 use a day item.
Let me break this down for you. The fighter as written has to activate the AMF before moving up to the wizard if they are more than 40' apart. If he does so, he loses all of his magical movement increases, thus not allowing him to close to the required distance with his now shortened movement.
If the fighter used his magical items to move up, once he hits the wizard's AMF, he loses all of his magical movement (more likely then not stopping in place), and must activate his AMF item. As he is in the opposing AMF, that means that he can't activate magical items.
In the tactics section the build is told specifically to move up within range before activating the AMF item because to do so otherwise is tantamount to losing.
If we make the wizard flying, and apply all of the same scenarios, the fighter in the AMF as presented cannot touch the wizard.
This isn't new ground. I've already demonstrated the short comings of the build's action sequences. We're just tossing on the AMF to shorten it's options even more.
That is all it takes to kill your PC one mistake with the lock down build or most other high level encounters, one mistake, one miscalculation and you generally die. That's why we have parties. Teams to complement each other.
Here's a hint: the lockdown is far more susceptible to mistakes and miscalculations. It doesn't just make assumptions about itself, it makes assumptions about it's opponenets, what they can and cannot do, what equipment they have, what PrCs, what mundane items, what the terrain is like, what the starting distance is like, and who won initiative.
Change any one of those slightly, and the build is suddenly worthless.
I assume... we start at 60'+ or are flying and the AMF is up and running, or the veils up and running.
Now we'll probably get to see more posts about how your contingency was specially worded against AMFs and what you were doing with all those free actions so the lock down fighter couldn't really debuff you because you weren't really going to stick around and kill him just teleport away, after the fact and despite your posted actions.
What posed actions? The wizard is has flight and the AMF active among his other daily buffs and is just standing there?
What contingency? What free actions? Do you read what I'm posting and respond to that, or do the typical fallacy of making stuff up?
Seems to be the second. Come back when you have a coherent and reasoned argument that you can demonstrate beyond "I said so."
And since Lockdown is in an AMF, only certain spells will even have a chance to affect him.
I don't think Argaud is changing his position either. His point seems to be that these few specific instances aren't enough to claim that Lockdown fails at what he's intended to do. And I agree. Not all casters will look the same. It's much easier to counter a defense than to defend against all attacks. It's natural that some spells will allow a caster to overcome some aspects of Lockdown.
But not all wizards can shape AMF's. Not all clerics are Initiates of Mystra. No druid will want to be in an AMF.
It's easy to continuously optimize an example opponent to counter an OP's build. But it can get to the point that any character is hopeless against the optimized enemy. Let's be reasonable. A DM isn't trying to make the enemies invulnerable to the PC's.
EDIT: Previn, after reading your post, I'll have to take a closer look at some stuff (though I'm not planning on going over the whole thread). Specifically, I'll be looking for the shortcomings that make the build 'utterly fail'. But for starters, it seems that Dust of Negation would work around the fact that he can't activate his magic items after activating his AMF. What assumptions are you referring to?
You missed the point of the shaped AMF. The fighter, per the OP, does not activate the AMF until he has the mage in his lock-down range, The wizard has a shaped AMF up which is covering the fighter. If the fighter is in the AMF he can not activate his AMF item because it's abilities are suppressed.
As for why the wizard has buffs up and why we are ignoring mindblank. You said yourself, this is not an arena match and relying on mindblank to keep a decently played wizard from knowing where you are is akin to saying I am holding a buckler so you can never land a hit on me".
No I didn't. The wizard made an incorrect premise based on his knowledge of the PC. The wizard said what he was doing and the fighter countered it by slightly modifying his tactics by activating the AMF early since the wizard was hanging around messing with him.
The wizard died because he wasn't treating the fighter seriously and had to much knowledge for the encounter.
Well it seems like some posters pretty much ignore whatever they want about this thread regarding how wizards rule every encounter.
A simple miscalculation is all takes at this level to kill a PC. It was the wizard PC hanging around taunting another poster.
I'm sure with a little work he can come with some kind of "buff or contingency" after his actions were he was hanging around expecting to mess with the fighter because it is so much easier to to reword your contingency and buffs after the fact. I'm a wizard I said I had "buffs" up.
Just for the sake of seeing how the build works, let's assume Lockdown goes first.
As his standard action, he throws a packet of Dust of Negation, hitting AC 10 to target the square the wizard is in. He then uses his move (and possibly his Belt of Battle if need-be) to reach and threaten the wizard. With sufficient reach, he is outside of the Antimagic effect, but still threatens the wizard.
On the wizard's turn, he cannot cast spells. If he moves he provokes an AoO and is forced to make a virtually impossible reflex save (5% chance of success). If he fails (and he will) he stays put. Supposing he has some sort of reach and actually attacks Lockdown without moving, he triggers Lockdown's Robilar's Gambit.
To be honest, it would be wiser for Lockdown to throw the Dust of Negation 2 squares behind the wizard. In this way, the wizard is still within the effects of the Antimagic Field, but Lockdown can move adjacent to the wizard while remaining outside. This will allow him to take advantage of Defensive Sweep.
His enlarged average damage is ~34. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't need to use Overwhelming Attack on the 1st round. Standstill will force a Reflex save of ~44. That's pretty much impossible for anyone in an antimagic field.
I'm not even sure why I'm focusing on the wizard here, this works for pretty much anyone. But to sum up... they can't cast spells, and they can't move. They can attack, but that invites more damage. Their attacks are unbuffed, yours aren't.
I think round 1 should simply focus on getting the lock down, to hell with dealing actual damage. In round 2, after getting the lock down, you can hit them with Overwhelming Attack and start a painful cycle of 'Ouch! Everything I do hurts alot.'
I think one of the greatest aspects of this build is that he doesn't even need to use his regular actions on his turn to attack. His AoO's are what fuels the lockdown.
Meh. Even if the wizard pops out an AMF before Lockdown gets there, Lockdown is still a reach/AoO fighter. He can still full attack, or deal double damage with Overwhelming Attack. He still gets an AoO if the wizard moves or doesn't move. He still stops the wizard from casting defensively.
Not saying he doesn't, but his ability to lockdown the wizard is basically completely reliant on the AMF to do so. To get Overwhelming Attack or the full attack against thew AMF wizard, he has to start out in the AMF since both of those take full attack actions.
Even with reach, he still needs to be within 10' of the wizard due to the wizards AMF negating all his size increasing, and he has problems closing since for 20' he's been without magical movement (mainly a point for flight).
And since Lockdown is in an AMF, only certain spells will even have a chance to affect him.
Any conjuration spell with an instant duration, any conjuration spell that calls a creature, and any spell that creates non-magic items can be used in various capacities to deal with something in an AMF. So while yes, it's a smaller subsection of spells that could effect the fighter, against the flying wizard with the AMF, the fighter is helpless.
I don't think Argaud is changing his position either. His point seems to be that these few specific instances aren't enough to claim that Lockdown fails at what he's intended to do. And I agree. Not all casters will look the same. It's much easier to counter a defense than to defend against all attacks. It's natural that some spells will allow a caster to overcome some aspects of Lockdown.
But not all wizards can shape AMF's. Not all clerics are Initiates of Mystra. No druid will want to be in an AMF.
Not all wizards will shape anti-magic field either by feat or PrC, or be Iot7FV, or be melee focused or gish based or have Invoke Magic or have companions, nor will all clerics be Initiates of Mystra or melee focused, nor will druid have animal companions (which alone can stop the lockdown as I've demonstrated a before), or any of them or be carrying a tower shield, smoke sticks or other such items, or have spring attack (i.e. gishes)...
The list just keeps growing. Sure, you can get the jump on some people sometimes when conditions are right, but overall, claiming it as a way of shutting down casters is absurd. Yeah, it's a good build for a fighter in some cases, no it's not game stopping build in any sense, much less a caster stopper. And the only reason it's remotely effective against some casters is because of the AMF, not the build.
It's easy to continuously optimize an example opponent to counter an OP's build. But it can get to the point that any character is hopeless against the optimized enemy. Let's be reasonable. A DM isn't trying to make the enemies invulnerable to the PC's.
We're not really optimizing the opponents. We've been pointing out problems with it for pages. In fact very little of the build at this point can be contributed directly to the OP, how has had equipment, rules, feats, wealth and what not all corrected. In fact the "trick" was also previously posted on the ToB thread, and that it took him 3 MONTHS to work this build out then come back to the original thread to post it, and it had all those problems. Months more of a number of people hashing out the technical problem, and they still haven't been able to address the play/tactical problems.
What's some of the responses? The druid's animal companion, which in fact started this whole thing, and it still eats the fighter or allows the druid to get away. A caster with a tower shield. Wizard/archmage. You haven't seen a single thing optimized toward betting this specific build at all, just general suggestions of things that pretty much stop it. If I wanted to post an optimized build (which I'm relatively sure no one has even tried to do yet) and I would smash the lockdown so bad at it's own game that it wouldn't even be funny. In fact I already posted an animal companion that is basically superior to the lockdown at it's own game some pages back.
But it wouldn't really do anything, the "fighters are gods" people would still come on and keep posting things that make no sense, or ignore it.
EDIT: Previn, after reading your post, I'll have to take a closer look at some stuff (though I'm not planning on going over the whole thread). Specifically, I'll be looking for the shortcomings that make the build 'utterly fail'. But for starters, it seems that Dust of Negation would work around the fact that he can't activate his magic items after activating his AMF. What assumptions are you referring to?
Well, he has to be close enough for starters, his tactics rely on winning initiative, the opponent not being flying, no obstacles (terrain or what not) in the way, being able to identify/locate his opponent, his opponent not having any of several common pieces of adventuring gear, his opponent not having contingencies or celerities, his opponent no having other companions/familiars/party members near by to help, his opponent not having spring attack, or reach with the intent to kill, that he has all of this limited use per day items available and ready to use, that he gets more actions than he has in some cases (check his tactics section, namely drawing a potion and not using it, thus preventing him from making any attacks, and that he can't overpower in the majority of the cases where he's trying to use it since it's a full attack). Im sure I'm forgetting things, but I'm out of time right now.
I can't comment right now on the Dust of Negation, as that's in one of the few books I don't have access to.
No I didn't. The wizard made an incorrect premise based on his knowledge of the PC. The wizard said what he was doing and the fighter countered it by slightly modifying his tactics by activating the AMF early since the wizard was hanging around messing with him.
Wow metagame much?
1- Wizards are never just lounging around on the ground or walking around at that level. they teleport or fly.
2- IF you just popped your AMF early you have screwed yourself royal since you will now not be able to get near the wizard since all of your teleport/flying/D dooring items are nullified and the wizard, even when tuanting the fighter will never be withing a full run distance of teh fighter to begin with. Basic tactics here and I am not slanting it against any one build. Wizards spend almost a fourth of their spells perday making sure they stay the hell away from anything during combat so the fighter will be no exception.
and had to much knowledge for the encounter.
This is what wizards do. they figure out who and what their opponent is what they like doing and how to kill them far before they ever fight them. Even without metagame knowladge the wizard will figure out everything about the fighter. Mind blank is not up at all times and it's hardly the endall be all to begin with.
Well it seems like some posters pretty much ignore whatever they want about this thread regarding how wizards rule every encounter.
We only ignore rampent opinions that are horribly slanted and statistics pulled out of the backside of a donkey. Not to mention horrible mechanics interitation and flat out using the rules wrong.
A simple miscalculation is all takes at this level to kill a PC. It was the wizard PC hanging around taunting another poster.
And miscalculations are not something that someone with an int of well over 20 thats properly roleplayed will ever make in the first place.
I'm sure with a little work he can come with some kind of "buff or contingency" after his actions were he was hanging around expecting to mess with the fighter because it is so much easier to to reword your contingency and buffs after the fact. I'm a wizard I said I had "buffs" up.
Theres no work needed in the first place. A staple contingency has already been used for over half of this thread "If I loose initiative cast celerity" and it is handwaved away by fighter fanboys becuase they don't allow it in their own games and in such ny thier logic no one does.
Not saying he doesn't, but his ability to lockdown the wizard is basically completely reliant on the AMF to do so. To get Overwhelming Attack or the full attack against thew AMF wizard, he has to start out in the AMF since both of those take full attack actions.
Correct. Though my point in the last post is that he doesn't need to attack in the first round. Since he literally doesn't have enough actions to anyway, this is largely not an issue.
His first round should be move+activate anti-magic field.
His AoO's take care of the lockdown after that.
Even with reach, he still needs to be within 10' of the wizard due to the wizards AMF negating all his size increasing, and he has problems closing since for 20' he's been without magical movement (mainly a point for flight).
True. Starting distance is a factor. I guess it all depends on where Lockdown is adventuring.
Any conjuration spell with an instant duration, any conjuration spell that calls a creature, and any spell that creates non-magic items can be used in various capacities to deal with something in an AMF.
Instant-duration conjuration spells yes (and part of the reason I might increase his Touch AC with Shield Ward). Calling spells take a while to cast if I remember correctly (with the exception of Gate). And item creation spells seem of little threat at first glance. Am I missing something?
So while yes, it's a smaller subsection of spells that could effect the fighter, against the flying wizard with the AMF, the fighter is helpless.
More like the fighter is reduced to using his ranged weapon against the wizard, as is the rest of the party. Not to mention, with boots of flight and a reach weapon, he can fly after the flying antimagic wizard and still form a lockdown (though not with the AMF).
Not all wizards will shape anti-magic field either by feat or PrC, or be Iot7FV, or be melee focused or gish based or have Invoke Magic or have companions, nor will all clerics be Initiates of Mystra or melee focused, nor will druid have animal companions (which alone can stop the lockdown as I've demonstrated a before), or any of them or be carrying a tower shield, smoke sticks or other such items, or have spring attack (i.e. gishes)...
1. Wizard with a shaped antimagic field- Lockdown can't stop the wizard from casting, but he can still stop the wizard from moving and from casting defensively. Any spell the wizard casts provokes. The wizard is forced to retreat.
Even if the wizard can fly (as in your example) I'm not sure why Lockdown can't simply fly after him.
2. I'm not sure what Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil offers, so I can't consider it yet. I'll have to read it over.
3. Initiate of Mystra clerics- Well, this is essentially the same for the wizard, except the cleric might do it a bit worse because he might not have the same retreat spells as the wizard.
Not to mention, Mystra is one god of many, in a pantheon that is restricted to one campaign setting. You could easily face clerics that can't cast in an antimagic field. In fact, that's more than likely.
4. Melee-focused cleric- What exactly is the issue here? Unless the melee cleric has an unhittable AC, I fail to see how the lockdown fails. And unless the melee cleric is also an Initiate of Mystra, his buffs are down as well in the antimagic field, or because of Pierce Magical Protection.
5. Animal Companion- Again, I can't initially see the problem. I'm guessing it is an animal companion fighting Lockdown while he is unbuffed in an Antimagic Field. I haven't seen the animal companion, but it may have an advantage over Lockdown while he is in the antimagic field, especially if it has reach and can remain buffed outside of the AMF. Again, I find Dust of Negation to be superior, since it allows Lockdown to remain outside of the AMF.
6. Tower Shield- I wasn't here for this, so again I'm not sure what the relevance is here. I assume it is to gain cover and stop AoO's. But what exactly does that accomplish? You gain cover and then move away. Lockdown simply follows you. Either way, Lockdown is forcing you from attacking anyone.
Not to mention the 50% arcane spell failure chance that wizard's would have to deal with (either from the start of the encounter, or by using an action to ready the shield), and the -10 penalty they all take on attack rolls and skill checks for non-proficiency (I assume the characters in question either took a feat or something to gain proficiency).
7. Concealment is an issue. One missed attack can ruin the lockdown if the provocative action is one used to retreat. Would Blindsight overcome this?
8. Gishes- Could you elaborate? I'm not sure where they inherently stop the lockdown from occuring.
9. Spring Attack- If we assume that Spring Attack overrides Thicket of Blades, I still don't see the big deal. Mostly because I haven't seen deadly spring attacking builds. But this, as well as multiple enemies, is reason to use the open feats on stuff like Knockback and/or Improved Trip. Ready an action and trip or bull rush the spring attacker away.
The list just keeps growing. Sure, you can get the jump on some people sometimes when conditions are right, but overall, claiming it as a way of shutting down casters is absurd. Yeah, it's a good build for a fighter in some cases, no it's not game stopping build in any sense, much less a caster stopper.
It says right in the OP what it is meant to do. Lockdown multiple opponents. Which it can do. It's also intended to lock down a spellcaster. Which it can do. That doesn't mean every caster of course, but as I said before, not every caster is optimized to avoid this sort of stuff. I mean, I can't think of many wizards that are also gishes that carry around tower shields and spring attack.
Yeah, it's possible as you posit. But not likely I suppose. Not as likely as the typical old wizard in robes that tries to blast you to death anyways.
And the only reason it's remotely effective against some casters is because of the AMF, not the build.
That's false. Put the antimagic effect on a standard sword-and-board and watch the wizard walk away from the attack and zoom off into the air, or pop a wall in your face, or summon a big monster.
Lockdown stops movement and possibly stops attacks through reach, or makes attacks not worthwhile through double-damage AoO's. The antimagic field stops casters from casting, which pretty much seals the deal.
We're not really optimizing the opponents. We've been pointing out problems with it for pages. In fact very little of the build at this point can be contributed directly to the OP, how has had equipment, rules, feats, wealth and what not all corrected. In fact the "trick" was also previously posted on the ToB thread, and that it took him 3 MONTHS to work this build out then come back to the original thread to post it, and it had all those problems. Months more of a number of people hashing out the technical problem, and they still haven't been able to address the play/tactical problems.
What's some of the responses? The druid's animal companion, which in fact started this whole thing, and it still eats the fighter or allows the druid to get away. A caster with a tower shield. Wizard/archmage.
I guess I just don't see why these 'problems' are so bad. I haven't been here for the discussion (today or yesterday was my first time on this thread).
Either way, they just don't seem that likely. Out of all the clerics out there, only Initiates of Mystra can cast in an AMF. Wow. That's a small percentage of all the clerics you can fight. And how many have Tower Shield Proficiency? None, unless they're special and go out of their way to get it. And spring attacking clerics? Those are the few that aren't Persistent Spell/Divine power/Righteous Might clerics?
So yeah, they may be out there. But they're few and far between of what a DM can throw at you.
You haven't seen a single thing optimized toward betting this specific build at all, just general suggestions of things that pretty much stop it.
I've seen stuff presented to hand-wave the build away. But most issues seem like they can be worked around, or don't actually stop the lockdown from working.
Saying the build doesn't work because an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or a Spring Attacker can avoid the lockdown is just silly. But maybe I need these things to be elaborated on. I may be missing some important details.
If I wanted to post an optimized build (which I'm relatively sure no one has even tried to do yet) and I would smash the lockdown so bad at it's own game that it wouldn't even be funny. In fact I already posted an animal companion that is basically superior to the lockdown at it's own game some pages back.
Well, sure. But that's not really relevant. Lockdown will or will not work independently of how well your variant works.
Well, he has to be close enough for starters
Well, close enough to move within threatening distance of the enemy. But pretty much everyone has to do this except for casters. That's the way of the melee.
his tactics rely on winning initiative
It's convenient. But if he can still reach his opponent after his opponent acts, then it's not that big of a deal. More than likely, his opponent will close in on him anyways, making the issue moot.
The caster is the one that throws a wrench in the plan, assuming he retreats to safety (such as in the air). But that throws a wrench in any meleer's plans and it assumes terrain (as you mention later). Lockdown can still harass him by activating his boots of flying though.
the opponent not being flying
Lockdown can fly. Obviously he can't activate the antimagic field while flying, but he can still use Standstill, Thicket of Blades, and Defensive Sweep.
But again, assuming the caster can automaticaly fly or keep away assumes terrain, which is your next objection...
no obstacles (terrain or what not) in the way
Yes. A problem for any charger as well, or a tumbler for that matter. Or a spring attacker. Or anyone that relies on movement.
being able to identify/locate his opponent
If you're rolling initiative, I fail to see how this is anything other than fluff for your list.
his opponent not having any of several common pieces of adventuring gear
His opponents are not adventurers. They might be guards, monsters in a dungeon, savage barbarians, a wizard in his tower, golems, animals, demons, etc.
Lockdown is the adventurer, not the other way around.
his opponent not having contingencies or celerities
Ok. That will likely be a small percentage of his enemies (those that cast spells, and those that cast spells that know contingency and celerity). Lockdown works very well against non-casters. Against casters, he works as well. Against certain casters with certain spells, things get different.
his opponent no having other companions/familiars/party members near by to help
Lockdown also has a party behind him.
his opponent not having spring attack
Explain this to me. The enemy moves (and presumably doesn't provoke despite Thicket of Blades) and attacks someone. Then Lockdown moves at him, and the enemy is forced to do it again. How powerful is this spring attack?
or reach with the intent to kill
But Lockdown gets double damage, and forces an AoO everytime you attack him. This seems to me to be in Lockdown's favor.
that he has all of this limited use per day items available and ready to use
The same goes for your wizards with their spell selections.
*shrugs*
that he gets more actions than he has in some cases (check his tactics section, namely drawing a potion and not using it, thus preventing him from making any attacks, and that he can't overpower in the majority of the cases where he's trying to use it since it's a full attack)
Yeah, that's a bit flawed, but easily remedied by waiting until round 2 to use Overwhelming Attack and simply using Round 1 to move and activate your magic item.
Maybe tomorrow I'll go through the item section and see what can be changed. Right now, it seems like a bit of a mess, and I'm not sure what is definitely in the build and what is simply being suggested.
Correct. Though my point in the last post is that he doesn't need to attack in the first round. Since he literally doesn't have enough actions to anyway, this is largely not an issue.
Actually it is an bit of an issue. Without Overpowering Assault, the save for moving and casting is considerably reduced.
His first round should be move+activate anti-magic field.
His AoO's take care of the lockdown after that.
Which assumes that he's with in a 60' move to be within range, has an unobstructed path to the target, can identify the target, and has won initiative.
Instant-duration conjuration spells yes (and part of the reason I might increase his Touch AC with Shield Ward). Calling spells take a while to cast if I remember correctly (with the exception of Gate). And item creation spells seem of little threat at first glance. Am I missing something?
Depends on the calling spell. Item creation spells starts to get into things like Walls of Iron, creating/dropping items, dropping things like shrunk boulders, Rock to Mud for entombing the fighter via the AMF, Telekinsis to throw things, basically a variety of options depending on how exotic you want to get, and how efficient. You'll forgive me if I don't list the myriad of spells/methods for a caster to deal with someone in an AMF.
More like the fighter is reduced to using his ranged weapon against the wizard, as is the rest of the party. Not to mention, with boots of flight and a reach weapon, he can fly after the flying antimagic wizard and still form a lockdown (though not with the AMF).
Actually he can't. He only has a 10' reach, and can't approach closer than 20' to the wizard with the AMF without falling as his flight is negated, thus he can't preform the lockdown. The caveat to this being it would be possible to get above the wizard, actiate the fighter's AMF, fall through the Wizard's AMF and then catch the wizard in the fighter's AMF and then causing them both to fall. That's not really a reliable or sound tactic though.
1. Wizard with a shaped antimagic field- Lockdown can't stop the wizard from casting, but he can still stop the wizard from moving and from casting defensively. Any spell the wizard casts provokes. The wizard is forced to retreat.
Actually no, not any spell. A silenced Dimension Door would not provoke, and would take the wizard beyond the fighter's reach should have chosen to venture into the wizard's AMF. No would swift or quickened spells. I would point out that this has been mentioned previously as a defensive tactic for the casters.
Even if the wizard can fly (as in your example) I'm not sure why Lockdown can't simply fly after him.
Because the lockdown can't get close enough to attack without losing flight, and thus falling before they even get into attack range.
2. I'm not sure what Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil offers, so I can't consider it yet. I'll have to read it over.
The veils duplicates a layer of prismatic wall, which is immune to AMF.
3. Initiate of Mystra clerics- Well, this is essentially the same for the wizard, except the cleric might do it a bit worse because he might not have the same retreat spells as the wizard.
Forgive me, I was trying to make the point that there are many options of dealing with this very specific tactic. But to address the point, a cleric would have almost no reason to retreat. It's a DC 21 caster level check to cast within the field the fighter will create for such a cleric. Assuming we go with 16th level since that's when lockdown 'matures' the cleric will cast his spells on a 5 or better if he has nothing else to boost caster level.
Not to mention, Mystra is one god of many, in a pantheon that is restricted to one campaign setting. You could easily face clerics that can't cast in an antimagic field. In fact, that's more than likely.
Maybe the DM doesn't allow ToB. Maybe theere is no Faerun stuff allow, and thus the Antimagic Torc isn't allowed either (it's Faerun specific). We're not talking campaign specifics here. As always, unless stated otherwise, we're assuming everything is open. Going down the 'it might not be allowed' road is a poor thing to do.
4. Melee-focused cleric- What exactly is the issue here? Unless the melee cleric has an unhittable AC, I fail to see how the lockdown fails. And unless the melee cleric is also an Initiate of Mystra, his buffs are down as well in the antimagic field, or because of Pierce Magical Protection.
Well no, his buffs aren't all going down because of Pierce Magical Protection. Only those that provide a direct bonus to AC. As for melee cleric, that's a bit too broad. It's like saying that a melee fighter is helpless against the lockdown. We need to get more specific on what the melee role is. What if it's a cleric with a spiked chain? Or a spring attacking Cleric? What if it's a tripper? What if it's using a tower shield? Again, there are a number of clerics that while hampered in the AMF, are far from helpless, and might kill the fighter anyways.
5. Animal Companion- Again, I can't initially see the problem. I'm guessing it is an animal companion fighting Lockdown while he is unbuffed in an Antimagic Field. I haven't seen the animal companion, but it may have an advantage over Lockdown while he is in the antimagic field, especially if it has reach and can remain buffed outside of the AMF. Again, I find Dust of Negation to be superior, since it allows Lockdown to remain outside of the AMF.
As I said, I've demonstrated pages back that the animal companion is superior to the lockdown in an AMF physically (in fact they kill the lockdown before he can finish the druid using the OP's original calculations on how long the druid lasts). Depending on the companion, it's also possible for the companions to chew up all the AoO from the fighter, thus allowing the druid to move out besides just laying the smackdown on lockdown, and in the case or grapplers, if they do succeed, lockdown gets no AoO.
If we then take a sub level and get an Air Elemental companion (Complete Mage option), and set it up as the lockdown build is (Thick of blades, Standstill, Spiked Chain and an Antimagic Torc) the air elemental denies a 30' area, while also flying at 100' perfect speed naturally, and being able to grapple the Druid, and then drop him outside the fighter's AMF without the fighter being able to do anything about it.
6. Tower Shield- I wasn't here for this, so again I'm not sure what the relevance is here. I assume it is to gain cover and stop AoO's. But what exactly does that accomplish? You gain cover and then move away. Lockdown simply follows you. Either way, Lockdown is forcing you from attacking anyone.
Well, it provides cover, preventing both AoO and the AMF, which is an emanation. Cast the spell of your choice to swing the battle back around in the caster's favor. It's also an even better tactic for the druid since it melds into his form when he is wildshaped.
Not to mention the 50% arcane spell failure chance that wizard's would have to deal with (either from the start of the encounter, or by using an action to ready the shield), and the -10 penalty they all take on attack rolls and skill checks for non-proficiency (I assume the characters in question either took a feat or something to gain proficiency).
The penalty is only for those spells that have somatic components. It's not so much for making attacks as it is to prevent AoO and the AMF, allowing a spell to be cast, such as a Dimension Door, moving the wizard beyond the fighter's ability to reach him in a single round or movement while in the AMF.
7. Concealment is an issue. One missed attack can ruin the lockdown if the provocative action is one used to retreat. Would Blindsight overcome this?
Depends on the method of concealment. In the example of Smokesticks, it would allow attacks since there is still line of effect, but I'm not sure anyway of keeping it reliably while in the AMF. It wouldn't matter for the Tower Shield.
8. Gishes- Could you elaborate? I'm not sure where they inherently stop the lockdown from occuring.
Nothing inherent about them, but pointing out the fact that a caster doesn't mean someone with no melee ability. bascially it comes down to the cleric melee issue (Reach fighter? Spring attacker? Tripper?). Some gishes will murder the lockdown build, some will have problems, and some will actually be locked down. But you can't just dismiss them, especially since they are even more likely to have a method of avoiding or killing the lockdown.
9. Spring Attack- If we assume that Spring Attack overrides Thicket of Blades, I still don't see the big deal. Mostly because I haven't seen deadly spring attacking builds. But this, as well as multiple enemies, is reason to use the open feats on stuff like Knockback and/or Improved Trip. Ready an action and trip or bull rush the spring attacker away.
Well, if you ready an action, you don't get to use Overpowering Assault, and aren't locking anyone down. You're only functioning as limited, and bad area control. The OP also decided that Spring Attack works for avoiding Thicket of Blades, but the Tumble doesn't, otherwise I'd bring in tumble as well as I believe that it works.
It says right in the OP what it is meant to do. Lockdown multiple opponents. Which it can do. It's also intended to lock down a spellcaster. Which it can do. That doesn't mean every caster of course, but as I said before, not every caster is optimized to avoid this sort of stuff. I mean, I can't think of many wizards that are also gishes that carry around tower shields and spring attack.
Well actually, it was made in direct response to druids, as it says in the OP. And while I agree that every caster is not optimized against it, there are so many ways of avoiding it, beat it or getting out if that it's not far fetched at all for one of those methods to be open to a caster. Part of the point of pointing out a few of the tactics against it.
Yeah, it's possible as you posit. But not likely I suppose. Not as likely as the typical old wizard in robes that tries to blast you to death anyways.
Actually, if the wizard is trying to blast you to death he's not a very good wizard since that's the worst thing to do. That you refer to the "typical old wizard" make me think you're not entirely unbiased in what a 'wizard' can be.
That's false. Put the antimagic effect on a standard sword-and-board and watch the wizard walk away from the attack and zoom off into the air, or pop a wall in your face, or summon a big monster.
No, it's really not. If you got the 'standard' wizard into an AMF, the 'standard' sword and board fighter would be best of to start a grapple with his AoO as the wizard walks away. Once he's grappling the wizard, the outcome is generally the same. Or you could simply ready actions to move with the wizard, thus keeping him in the AMF, and grabbing AoO as they come.
Lockdown stops movement and possibly stops attacks through reach, or makes attacks not worthwhile through double-damage AoO's. The antimagic field stops casters from casting, which pretty much seals the deal.
It probably stops movement, and it probably stops spell casting. It also only stops attacks from things that don't have ranged attacks or reach as well. In example, a green dragon probably doesn't care that you're going to keep it in one place. As for the AMF sealing the deal, as I believe I've point out multiple times, it depends entirely on your opponent and what items they have and what they can do.
it also relies on many assumptions about getting into that position in the first place.
I guess I just don't see why these 'problems' are so bad. I haven't been here for the discussion (today or yesterday was my first time on this thread).
Either way, they just don't seem that likely. Out of all the clerics out there, only Initiates of Mystra can cast in an AMF. Wow. That's a small percentage of all the clerics you can fight. And how many have Tower Shield Proficiency? None, unless they're special and go out of their way to get it. And spring attacking clerics? Those are the few that aren't Persistent Spell/Divine power/Righteous Might clerics?
So yeah, they may be out there. But they're few and far between of what a DM can throw at you.
D you really want a list of everything the DM can throw at lockdown?
1) Any dragon with 10' or greater reach
2) Any monster with 10' or greater reach
3) Druid animal companions
4) Caster who can fly naturally
5) Anyone with spring attack
6) Anyone with reach, such as someone else using a spiked chain
7) anyone using a bow or other missile weapon
8) Anyone with a bedsheet, Tower Shield, Smokestick
9) Anyone that can Hide in Plain Sight
10) Anyone that can sunder the chain
11) Anything sufficiently good at grappling with reach
12) Multiple creatures
13) Anything intelligent enough to move anyone in the lockdown out via grappling the lockie
14) Anything with naturally high AC or Reflex saves
Should I go on?
Yeah it's a neat trick, and some times it's a good tactic, but it's no where as good as the hype that the OP has built up around it, and nowhere as useful as it's being made out to be.
I've seen stuff presented to hand-wave the build away. But most issues seem like they can be worked around, or don't actually stop the lockdown from working.
Saying the build doesn't work because an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or a Spring Attacker can avoid the lockdown is just silly. But maybe I need these things to be elaborated on. I may be missing some important details.
Not the important details, but the important point: it's relying on so much to go right for it, and there are so many ways around it that it just doesn't do what it advertises reliably.
Well, close enough to move within threatening distance of the enemy. But pretty much everyone has to do this except for casters. That's the way of the melee.
Well, the OP's own tactics say to move right on top of the target before activating the AMF, and I doubt that most fights start within 30'. I would suggest 60' as a close starting distance. And while yes, melee has to move, the lockdown really doesn't have much real movement capabilities, and even less when in the AMF, which is why the point keeps coming up. His mobility is less than what one would expect of a melee fighter.
It's convenient. But if he can still reach his opponent after his opponent acts, then it's not that big of a deal. More than likely, his opponent will close in on him anyways, making the issue moot.
Actually, depending on what the caster does, it maybe the only chance he has. Getting hit with a Disjunction before he gets to do anything pretty much negates him. The casters tend to have a large amount of "it's over" spells, where as the lockdown, even with optimal movement and actions, still takes several rounds to kill his target.
The caster is the one that throws a wrench in the plan, assuming he retreats to safety (such as in the air). But that throws a wrench in any meleer's plans and it assumes terrain (as you mention later). Lockdown can still harass him by activating his boots of flying though.
Which is another problem, his flying is limited to 5 minutes a day. It's not always going to be an "I can fly up to him" for lockdown. And again, the ability to take the fight to the air means the AMF is pretty much out, leaving the caster free to cast spell, thus defeating the purpose.
Lockdown can fly. Obviously he can't activate the antimagic field while flying, but he can still use Standstill, Thicket of Blades, and Defensive Sweep.
He can fly for 5 minutes per day. As his flight is exactly the same as the flight spell, which I'm assuming the caster is using for simplicities' sake, if the Lockdown can't get in range in 1 round, the caster need only fly around until the lockdown's fling runs out. Again, starting positing and initiative come into play, and if lockdown doesn't start when and where he needs to, he can't do anything.
But again, assuming the caster can automaticaly fly or keep away assumes terrain, which is your next objection...
Yes. A problem for any charger as well, or a tumbler for that matter. Or a spring attacker. Or anyone that relies on movement.
Not true. It will depend on the type of terrain and obstacles, and type of movement available to the builds. In this case lockdown has 2 things to increase movement, one of which is limited to 5 minutes per day. This is about lockdown's ability to deal with casters, not the problems inherent in the imbalance between casters and everyone else. As well, I would expect spring attack builds to have greater mobility than the base 40' (30' in AMF)that lockdown will have, and even then lockdown is not getting his Overpower Assault up and running, and is spending his time chasing down the target. What happened to the lockdown?
If you're rolling initiative, I fail to see how this is anything other than fluff for your list.
Because rolling initiative only means that you're aware of something, not that you know where it is. Or that there are multiple things in the area some hidden, some not, some invisible some not, the use of illusions, etc. It also comes down to the power difference in that 1 round is probably all the caster needs to kill the fighter.
His opponents are not adventurers. They might be guards, monsters in a dungeon, savage barbarians, a wizard in his tower, golems, animals, demons, etc.
Lockdown is the adventurer, not the other way around.
I'm sorry, are you saying that NPCs, be they humanoid or monsters, don't get equipment? Equipment = adventuring gear. There's no distinction between the two. I'm unsure if you're being deliberately obtuse or not here, but either way it's pointless.
Ok. That will likely be a small percentage of his enemies (those that cast spells, and those that cast spells that know contingency and celerity). Lockdown works very well against non-casters. Against casters, he works as well. Against certain casters with certain spells, things get different.
Small percentage? I doubt that any intelligent person who has access to contingency and celerity will avoid them. You're basically arguing that the bad players/NPCs are going to be easy pickings for the lockdown. The rest of us will be off slaying dragons while lockdown deals with the sub 13 int wizards. Even so, that's just a pair of many options.
Lockdown also has a party behind him.
And NPCs never come in groups of more than 1? There are never evil adventuring parties that the player party clashes with? You really seem to be grasping at straws here. And yeah, even if I do agree that only a small percentage of x will have y, and only a small prcentage of z will have y, and only a small percentage of a will have b... we keep adding more and more ways that stop lockdown.
At a certain point, enough small things add up to become common. In fact there's fewer things vulnerable to lockdown than weak against him.
Explain this to me. The enemy moves (and presumably doesn't provoke despite Thicket of Blades) and attacks someone. Then Lockdown moves at him, and the enemy is forced to do it again. How powerful is this spring attack?
Depends on the build. I could dump around 80 damage per spring attack with no effort at all. I could probably top out at about 200 damage per spring attack between ToB and the PHB2 in an AMF. You seem to have preconceived notions about what tactics can do what.
But Lockdown gets double damage, and forces an AoO everytime you attack him. This seems to me to be in Lockdown's favor.
Warblade with Strike of Perfect Clarity same stats as the lockdown, using a spike chain. Damage with a single hit? 2d4+15+100 before any other buffs, fears or equipment. Fighter is dead in 2 hits. 3 rounds if all we do is hit, refresh and hit again. if we make it a valorous weapon and get the charge (lockdown can't stop us until we're in range anyways), lockdown is dead in 1 hit.
Again, I could list a myriad of ways to actually work a killing people using reach that are far, far more effective than the lockdown is.
The same goes for your wizards with their spell selections.
*shrugs*
Well, I suppose so, except that you know, spells can last for hours at high levels. Basically if we say we have to recast a spell 3 times a day (10min/lvl duration) the wizard has 1 spell of each level running, and 1 extra spell of each level to cast. Make that 9th level spell shapechange and things just get silly giving the high level caster basically unlimited spells and ex/su abilities each day.
Yeah, that's a bit flawed, but easily remedied by waiting until round 2 to use Overwhelming Attack and simply using Round 1 to move and activate your magic item.
Well, those were just the tip of the ice berg. His entire tactics section is a hodgepodge of bad advice, bad tactics and rules mistakes. He also references feats he doesn't have as if he does as well as equipment he doesn't have and can't afford anyways.
Maybe tomorrow I'll go through the item section and see what can be changed. Right now, it seems like a bit of a mess, and I'm not sure what is definitely in the build and what is simply being suggested.
That's because the OP basically ignored wealth by level and just listed out everything that he felt like listing (he started with over 1.5 million gold worth of items). I'm also on his ignore list because he refused to believe that Ancestral Relic cannot be used to increase your wealth above what you already have.
The Dust of Suppression is a very nice idea. Heh, Khan, I changed my opinion of the druid/fighter thing after you went through the math on that thread...something that Druid posters don't do. Even after I buffed up an AC to go against the fighter's numbers you posted, it was pretty plain that only with max, high level buffs was the AC for a druid going to be a factor...most of the time it was just a speed bump.
As for the Torc not working in an AMF, that is incorrect. Once activated, the AMF is up, and the Torc has nothing to do with it. It's just like a cast spell, it's not a continuous effect. It will work on the mage at the center of a shaped AM.
Kindly keep in mind that a Shaped, Enlarged AMF normally takes up a 9th level slot, unless you blow, what, 50K on a Rod of Greater Enlarge?
Also note, you can't Call or Summon a monster through an AMF, anymore then you can Call or Summon it on the other side of a brick wall. Unless that monster can be summoned into your own space (and it can't), no conjuring tricks once it is up. So you are basically reduced to tossing Orbs. You can't even maintain control over dominated/charmed creatures with the AMF in the way...it interrupts all magical effects unless stated otherwise.
A Contingency spell set to trigger Celerity if you lose initiative is going to go off ALL THE TIME...in which case you need to keep recasting it, burning two spell slots. Sure, great for a duel or arena build. Otherwise...what? Also, that wording does not help you at all in the surprise round if you are flat footed.
There's a lot of "I wish" poo-pooing going on with the fighter assumptions against a spellcaster, completely ignoring the reverse argument.
The spellcasters are automatically assuming they are flying...or that they can fly, or that there is room to make flying relevant.
They are assuming they have their contingencies up, and the correct wording in place, and all the spells they will ever need tied to them.
They are assuming that they are far enough away that the fighter can't reach them with one move, all the time.
They are assuming they can just teleport away.
They are assuming they have Called (multiple?) creatures on hand all the time, and the fighter would just ignore them.
The caster has unlimited line of sight, and so can cast spells onto the fighter from a distance in complete safety. Moreover, the fighter is stupid enough to stand out there and take it. And...the mage actually has enough Orb spells to do the job.
They are assuming unlimited access to any spell desired on demand, and that they are all level 20 and can cast tons of level 9 spells per day.
The shaped AMF makes me laugh. It totally shuts down anything the caster can do except toss Orb spells, because the AMF acts just like solid cover in all directions around him. It interrupts line of effect, and that includes summoning spells.
The Veils from a Veilist take time to put up,,,but are automatically assumed to be up, despite how absurd that is from a stealth point, and the fact it is impossible to see through them. It also ignores the fact that if you are willing to take the dmg, you can go right through the lower level Veils, and if you can make the saves, right through the higher level ones, too! A Veilist with such a barriar up effectively blocks out their entire square from any movement from their own friends/allies, and is like a glowing light bulb to boot.
They are assuming they are always going to win initiative. Sure, they have some tools to do so, but face it, how many wizards actually have access to Hummingbird familiars (most I know trade in familiars), memorize Nerveskitter (almost none, and it's likely to be used up just like Contingency is), or take Improved Initiative as a feat? Spellcasters are feat starved, and this kind of thing where you are optimizing for a 'duel' with Lockdown is not how most spellcasters are built.
Lockdown is not a duelling build. It's a battlefield control build with some flexibility in construction, made to be useful against spellcasters and their pets.
The Dust of Suppression idea is doubly strong because it could dovetail with Power Attack. With all his magical defenses down, a spellcaster is going to be lucky to have an AC of 21. If Lockdown changes in GWS for Power Attack earlier on, he could take a -BAB to hit, +40 to damage, and be assured of hitting if he rolls a 1. One full attack routine and the caster is quite dead.
One possible tactic against the flying mage inside a shaped AMF is to simply Dim Door/fly/port directly above him and activate your AMF. You fall right onto him, his flight spell and contingencies and whatnot wink out, and he falls down with you. You could even turn it into a bull rush manuver if you smash into him, and make sure he's a nice squishy cushion for you when you both hit the ground (hmm, there's room for Dungeon Crasher in the build, I'm sure, and I think driviing someone into the ground from 100' up would qualify).
========================
I continue to find this thread very amusing because the spellcasters are still scrambling for ways to beat Lockdown. Instead of "Dominate him, nxt!", or claiming polymorph cheese beats all fighters, they are scrambling for specific PrC's most people don't take, weird spell comboes, inefficient contingencies, leaning extremely heavily on the most broken spells they can, and they still can't justify a blanket dismissal. The vagueness and one-sidedness of most of their arguments is really, really amusing.
Lockdown works. It works at pretty much all it's levels as a melee build, and it works in mid range as battlefield control, and it works in late levels as an AoO machine AND battlefield control build. It's very effective against any spellcaster not specifically set to take it on (which means they are likely meat for the spellcasters in my own party), and if it wins initiative, can be a horrible danger to any spellcaster, anytime.
================
Actually, I believe the best dispelling weapon I've ever seen is the one statted up for Ryn? in the Drow/Underdark series. Casts Dispel Magic at the level of the person wielding it every time it hits. MMmmm, mmmm, goodness. They statted it up in Dragon.
I really do like that Dust of Suppression. An AMF you can THROW. Hah! Flying mage inside a shaped AMF? Take THIS! Weee splat, hustle on up and kill him...good find, Khan! the build even has the spare gold to buy one or two.
===Aelryinth
You start with the AMF up? And within a single move's distance? And you won initiative compared to the wizard? You're stacking the deck and taking an implausible scenario.
Perhaps I misunderstood Khan's challenge. (I tip my hat to you Kahn)
I still say that when a wizard and a fighter are stuck in several AMF's and have to fight, the fighter wins. :D
I think it can be said that casters are better than fighters at most everything at high levels.
It should be noted that any spell effect a caster can have, the fighter can as well.
I think, perhaps, an Artificer would be a better response than other casters to "Lockdown".
I do not want to drag this into fighters vs casters. I want it to stay on "Lockdown."
stuff
I'm scrambling? I posted a single build using 13 levels or a core class and 7 levels of one of the most commonly used wizard PrC's that completely negate lockdown and yet I'm scrambling.
You pop an AMF, I don't care I am in a personal warding which exists fine in an AMF and gives me concealment.
You try and attack me for casting a spell, make a fort save in the mid 30's or your weapon is disintigrated by the violet veil I have up as my personal warding befre it ever touches me. and mid 30's is conservative. The save for veils is 18 + integrated spell (8 for violet as described in it's entry) + primary spell casting modifier + any feats that up SU abilities. So 18 +8 = a DC of 26 before ability modifiers and feats. And to make it better lockdown in an AMF has a fort save of +14 for a +12 base and a con mod of +2. a +6 mod (22) int will force you to roll a 20 or loose your weapon and thats easily atained via items and buffs which don't go inactive due to the personal warding.
I continue to find this thread very amusing because the spellcasters are still scrambling for ways to beat Lockdown. Instead of "Dominate him, nxt!", or claiming polymorph cheese beats all fighters, they are scrambling for specific PrC's most people don't take, weird spell comboes, inefficient contingencies, leaning extremely heavily on the most broken spells they can, and they still can't justify a blanket dismissal. The vagueness and one-sidedness of most of their arguments is really, really amusing.
Want a simple version of defeating lockdown? Wizard wins initiative, casts spell of choice, and lockdown dies or is disabled. That's all it takes to beat lockdown. Win initiative and cast 1 spell. If you're a druid, just stand there while the animal companion eats lockdown.
Basically if you don't get the perfect setup (win initiative, blow lots of limited use items, move next to the target, get the AMF up) lockdown loses. Depending on the target, it still loses if it gets all of that (i.e. druid and animal companion).
We're not scrambling to beat lockdown, we're showing all the reasons that it's not a lockdown, and why AMF isn't all that and a bag of chips against casters. That is of course the only thing that's really being discussed here; the power of AMF. Without it, lockdown is just another crappy fighter to any caster. With it, it's anything form still a crappy fighter, to a minor annoyance, to an actual threat.
Lockdown works. It works at pretty much all it's levels as a melee build, and it works in mid range as battlefield control, and it works in late levels as an AoO machine AND battlefield control build. It's very effective against any spellcaster not specifically set to take it on (which means they are likely meat for the spellcasters in my own party), and if it wins initiative, can be a horrible danger to any spellcaster, anytime.
So full of yourself. "any spellcaster, anytime" my butt. I've demonstrated repeatedly ways for a druid to get out if it through a variety of common and recommended animal companions, I've demonstrated that in a group it's difficult or impossible to lockdown someone, I've pointed out that it's possible to kill the lockdown in a round or less from another martial character using a spiked chain.
Works? Sort of. Glade it only took months of correcting your mistakes by multiple people (not all of which are fixed yet) to make it even rules legal.
Perhaps I misunderstood Khan's challenge. (I tip my hat to you Kahn)
I still say that when a wizard and a fighter are stuck in several AMF's and have to fight, the fighter wins. :D
Depends on the wizard. Wiz 20 in an AMF vs Fighter 20? Probably. Of course that's just a discussion about AMF's power, no about the fighter's, now isn't it?
But what if we end with say, Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldrtich Knight 10 instead of wizard 20?
I think it can be said that casters are better than fighters at most everything at high levels.
It should be noted that any spell effect a caster can have, the fighter can as well.
So why not just play a caster? There's also the point that you're spending money (often absurd amounts) to get what casters have. An non-renewable resource, that still can't get you everything that caster has. The casters? They're spending... a spell to have what the fighter does.
I think, perhaps, an Artificer would be a better response than other casters to "Lockdown".
I do not want to drag this into fighters vs casters. I want it to stay on "Lockdown."
Problem is lots of things have reach and don't care about the 'lockdown,' and for casters the only reason the 'lockdown' might work is AMF.
Depends on the wizard. Wiz 20 in an AMF vs Fighter 20? Probably. Of course that's just a discussion about AMF's power, no about the fighter's, now isn't it?
But what if we end with say, Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldrtich Knight 10 instead of wizard 20?
Still will die quickly to less hp, less AC not enough useful feats to be able to do much against a more focused meleer inside an AMF.
So why not just play a caster? There's also the point that you're spending money (often absurd amounts) to get what casters have. An non-renewable resource, that still can't get you everything that caster has. The casters? They're spending... a spell to have what the fighter does.
Irrelevant. Casters also have items, so what? Unless you can name one that is so useful that it negates the AMF trap, it is not important.
Smoke-sticks might work, but the lockdown guy might have taken one level of Exotic Weapon Master and be able to make AoO on targets with cover (exotic reach stunt) so it is not a given. Actually I am going to say the lockdown will always have exotic reach, since all your casters always have all the things they need to survive.
Casters have spells, cool, but that they can't cast in some circumstances. The lockdown works around bringing those circumstances to bear. The end. If the caster somehow manages to have a trick up his sleeve to save himself, that is nice. Most won't be able.
Problem is lots of things have reach and don't care about the 'lockdown,' and for casters the only reason the 'lockdown' might work is AMF.
Very few things have more reach than the enlarged lockdown guy (20' reach). Particularly those dragons that supposedly are so bad against the lockdown, dragons are particularly easy victims of Stand Still and Robilar's Gambit, even if an AMF would bothers them only a little.
There is a myth around here than warriors can't deal with CR-appropriate encounters and only casters do it. It has been debunked many times, yet the ignorant still bring it some times. Sorry, but those 'lots of things' are still dealing with a level X meleer, and probably losing badly. AMF will be used only if the critter is a primary spellcaster and therefore it is vulnerable to that tactic. And when the critter is a primary spellcaster it is horribly shafted inside an AMF.
As for flying caster inside an AMF, it is a stupid plan unless you are absolutely, positively sure that you are up against a lockdown warrior type or something similar, and are therefore are ready for him and loaded with orb spells. It won't happen often. 'Lots of things' that care/don't care about the lockdown will care even less about a wizard inside a reshaped enlarged AMF, which has shot himself in the foot by placing himself there, and they will eat his face easily.
The Iot7V fares better, perhaps, but only after level 13 (when he can use veils as immediate actions, at level 11 he can not). It is still just forcing a save or two - martial adepts will breeze through them easily. Actually, the veils are a joke before the caster is at least level 14, they do nothing able to stop any PC.
And miscalculations are not something that someone with an int of well over 20 thats properly roleplayed will ever make in the first place.
I strongly disagree. Being a genius doesn't make a person or a PC perfect and free from miscalculating or making a mistake.
I strongly disagree. Being a genius doesn't make a person or a PC perfect and free from miscalculating or making a mistake.
No, but it does make them learn from their mistakes quicker. A level 20 wizard with genius level int has been through enough that most miscalculations (such as the ones here) would simply be out of the question as those mistakes have likely been made or witnessed before.
Human Hexblade 20 or barbarian1/hexblade19
Trait: Quick (+10 base speed, -1 hp per level)
1-power attack, dodge
3-mobility
4-dark companion
5-combat casting
6-spring attack
9-practiced spellcaster
10-spell penetration
12-bonding assault
15-minor shapeshift, greater spell penetration
18-rapid blitz
20 (if hexblade20)-spell focus whatever
The hexblade gets some good mobility spells like expeditous retreat, alter self, and polymprph. Between your spells, the quick trait, your barbarian level if you have it, and minor shapeshift you could easily spring attack (and attack 3 times on you spring attack) and move out of even charge range. As a bonus the speed of your dark companion increases as well.
Actually it is an bit of an issue. Without Overpowering Assault, the save for moving and casting is considerably reduced.
Without overpowering assault the Standstill save is still ridiculously high. Too high for just about anyone in an AMF.
Which assumes that he's with in a 60' move to be within range, has an unobstructed path to the target, can identify the target, and has won initiative.
Which isn't that big of an assumption to be honest. I mean, you're walking in a dungeon and blam! There's a monster down the hall, or in the room you just entered, or you found the cultist and the altar.
It's not as if anyone is suggesting that Lockdown will get a lock down in every single encounter and that no circumstance can stop it.
Depends on the calling spell.
Yeah. Gate.
Item creation spells starts to get into things like Walls of Iron, creating/dropping items, dropping things like shrunk boulders, Rock to Mud for entombing the fighter via the AMF, Telekinsis to throw things, basically a variety of options depending on how exotic you want to get, and how efficient. You'll forgive me if I don't list the myriad of spells/methods for a caster to deal with someone in an AMF.
You'll forgive me if I don't assume all casters are optimized to cast within an AMF and have spells prepared precisely for AMF fighters.
But truthfully, I am very interested in knowing the supposed weaknesses to attempt to shore them up.
As I said before, tearing a build down is ridiculously easy. Attempting to shore up the weaknesses is more difficult.
Actually he can't. He only has a 10' reach, and can't approach closer than 20' to the wizard with the AMF without falling as his flight is negated, thus he can't preform the lockdown.
With an Enlarge spell on, he has 20' reach. If the wizard is flying, he has no need to activate his AMF. If he's using Dust of Negation, then there is also no problem.
Further, Aelryinth created Lockdown trying to assume as little as possible for the actual build. He tried to leave as many general feats open as possible, and refrained from hinging the build on a particular race or alignment. For that I commend him because it was an issue he brought up against my particular fighter builds in other threads, and I like that he stuck to his guns and remained consistent.
That said, I'm not holding to the same restrictions. Obviously a large race would be vastly superior than relying on magical size increases, especially when you have a habit of throwing out AMF's. A half-ogre with a spiked chain has a 20' reach that doesn't depend on magic.
The caveat to this being it would be possible to get above the wizard, actiate the fighter's AMF, fall through the Wizard's AMF and then catch the wizard in the fighter's AMF and then causing them both to fall. That's not really a reliable or sound tactic though.
Well, if you can't lock him down or even attack him in the air, why not fall on him (bringing him to the ground) and grapple him? It's certainly an option, especially when you have teammates on the ground that wouldn't mind stabbing the wizard anyways.
Actually no, not any spell. A silenced Dimension Door would not provoke, and would take the wizard beyond the fighter's reach should have chosen to venture into the wizard's AMF. No would swift or quickened spells. I would point out that this has been mentioned previously as a defensive tactic for the casters.
Swift spells can indeed get by AoO's. But this only matters if the caster can cast in an AMF in the first place. And despite how common you want to make that seem, it simply isn't.
The veils duplicates a layer of prismatic wall, which is immune to AMF.
I'll have to check the class.
Forgive me, I was trying to make the point that there are many options of dealing with this very specific tactic. But to address the point, a cleric would have almost no reason to retreat. It's a DC 21 caster level check to cast within the field the fighter will create for such a cleric. Assuming we go with 16th level since that's when lockdown 'matures' the cleric will cast his spells on a 5 or better if he has nothing else to boost caster level.
But to be honest, saying that an Initiate of Mystra can cast in an AMF isn't saying much. Lockdown still prevents him from moving, still hits him for each attack at double damage, and still stops him from casting defensively. Lockdown can still knock out his strongest buff (Righteous Might), and dispel others.
So while *one* type of cleric (of the many that can exist in any game world) can still cast in an AMF, it doesn't somehow completely shut down the build. Spells are strong of course, no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that PC's have no chance once a caster casts spells.
Just because we're trying to stop them from casting doesn't mean that failure to do so equals death.
Maybe the DM doesn't allow ToB. Maybe theere is no Faerun stuff allow, and thus the Antimagic Torc isn't allowed either (it's Faerun specific). We're not talking campaign specifics here. As always, unless stated otherwise, we're assuming everything is open. Going down the 'it might not be allowed' road is a poor thing to do.
More to the point... there are 30 major deities in Faerun. Then there are 29 lesser deities, and 7 other whole pantheons each with their own groups of deities. That the cleric of 1 god, of the 119 gods in Faerun, can cast spells in an AMF is of little consequence. For that Cleric of Mystra that you bring to halt the Lockdown, I point to 118 others that he shuts down with an AMF.
Well no, his buffs aren't all going down because of Pierce Magical Protection. Only those that provide a direct bonus to AC.
Like Righteous Might, Haste, any Polymorph spell, etc.
Again, there are a number of clerics that while hampered in the AMF, are far from helpless, and might kill the fighter anyways.
I doubt it. Assuming they are hampered in an AMF...
Spiked Chain Cleric: Lockdown outreaches them. If not (assuming he isn't naturally large and he's using the Torc of Antimagic instead of Dust of Negation), he matches the cleric's reach. But while the cleric gets his puny unbuffed full attack off, Lockdown gets an AoO for each one at double damage, on top of his attack on his turn at double damage.
Spring Attack: I believe that Thicket of Blades overrides Spring Attack, but since Aelryinth assumes it doesn't, I'll honor that (doing otherwise would probably open a big can of distracting worms). That said, while the cleric doesn't provoke for his movement, his attack still provokes Robilar's. Standstill kicks in.
Tripping: Hampered by an AMF, it is doubtful he could trip Lockdown. But assuming he even did, Lockdown still threatens, and so he still gets his AoO's. Since the cleric's AC, Attack, and Damage are down from the AMF, Lockdown can probably still hit him while prone, and outdamage him. Since AoO's fuel the lockdown, Lockdown can probably just use his action to stand up and take another hit (assuming the cleric can hit Lockdown while debuffed).
Tower Shield: If he is using cover, he's giving up his attacks. I don't see how that is deadly. That said... I think my version of Lockdown may include some sundering options
.As I said, I've demonstrated pages back that the animal companion is superior to the lockdown in an AMF physically (in fact they kill the lockdown before he can finish the druid using the OP's original calculations on how long the druid lasts). Depending on the companion, it's also possible for the companions to chew up all the AoO from the fighter, thus allowing the druid to move out besides just laying the smackdown on lockdown, and in the case or grapplers, if they do succeed, lockdown gets no AoO.
Could you point me to this demosntration? Does anyone know the page or post number?
Well, it provides cover, preventing both AoO and the AMF, which is an emanation. Cast the spell of your choice to swing the battle back around in the caster's favor. It's also an even better tactic for the druid since it melds into his form when he is wildshaped.
Are we assuming that getting cover from a Tower Shield doesn't take an action?
Nothing inherent about them, but pointing out the fact that a caster doesn't mean someone with no melee ability. bascially it comes down to the cleric melee issue (Reach fighter? Spring attacker? Tripper?). Some gishes will murder the lockdown build, some will have problems, and some will actually be locked down. But you can't just dismiss them, especially since they are even more likely to have a method of avoiding or killing the lockdown.
Gishes generally rely on their spells to augment their melee. A 16 BAB does not a warrior make.
Actually, if the wizard is trying to blast you to death he's not a very good wizard since that's the worst thing to do. That you refer to the "typical old wizard" make me think you're not entirely unbiased in what a 'wizard' can be.
It's not bias. It's the understanding that for every 'AMF-shaping, tower-shield wielding, spring attacking cleric' there are other clerics that simply don't do that stuff. For every wizard that is an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, there is a wizard that is an Incantatrix, a Mage of the Arcane Order, or a Geometer/Fatespinner.
Swift spells, instantaneous conjuration spells, and the like only matter for those 2-3 characters that aren't shut down by the AMF. And for each one of those, there are thousands of other possibilities.
Same with the Tower Shield. For each wizard with a Tower Shield (
), there may be a wizard with a mithral light shield, or a buckler and the Shielded Casting feat.I'm not unbiased, I just don't think that these one in a million characters determine whether or not a build works.
No, it's really not. If you got the 'standard' wizard into an AMF, the 'standard' sword and board fighter would be best of to start a grapple with his AoO as the wizard walks away. Once he's grappling the wizard, the outcome is generally the same.
I don't believe you can start a grapple with a sword in one hand and a shield in the other. You have to grab your opponent. Not to mention, the standard sword and board fighter will lack Improved Grapple and draw an AoO himself. If the wizard hits and deals damage (possible since the fighter is effectively debuffed) the attempt fails.
Or you could simply ready actions to move with the wizard, thus keeping him in the AMF, and grabbing AoO as they come.
You ready to move once. The wizard can withdraw and then cast a quickened spell.
Lockdown attempts to stop that stuff from happening. The AMF is not the build.
I'm sorry, are you saying that NPCs, be they humanoid or monsters, don't get equipment? Equipment = adventuring gear. There's no distinction between the two. I'm unsure if you're being deliberately obtuse or not here, but either way it's pointless.
I'm not being obtuse. I'm looking through my 5 monster manuals for the monster entries that include smokestick in their possessions.
See, it's possible that a DM might throw an enemy with Smokesticks at the party. But it's also extremely likely that he won't.
Small percentage? I doubt that any intelligent person who has access to contingency and celerity will avoid them. You're basically arguing that the bad players/NPCs are going to be easy pickings for the lockdown. The rest of us will be off slaying dragons while lockdown deals with the sub 13 int wizards. Even so, that's just a pair of many options.
Well, you either assume that the majority of the NPC wizards in the gameworld have a Contingency (Celerity) spell going or you don't.
It's that simple. I don't. I assume that although we here on the CO Board can paint every caster to have the same tired spells known and prepared every time, it's likely that there are differences amongst the casters of a gameworld based on anything from culture, geography, religion, preference, organization affiliations, etc.
Lockdown can easily be put through a game where he locks down his fair share of casters in many party encounters. Then he runs up against a couple throughout his career that are actually built to handle AMF's. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's not like in all 20 of his levels he will consistently fight AMF/Tower Shield wizards and Mystra Clerics. Or people with Smokestick obsessions.
And NPCs never come in groups of more than 1? There are never evil adventuring parties that the player party clashes with? You really seem to be grasping at straws here.
You said the the caster might have an animal companion, familiar, or party member. I said that Lockdown also has a party behind him.
Where am I grasping for straws? Literally all I said is that Lockdown has a party as well. I didn't even deny what you said.
And yeah, even if I do agree that only a small percentage of x will have y, and only a small prcentage of z will have y, and only a small percentage of a will have b... we keep adding more and more ways that stop lockdown.
At a certain point, enough small things add up to become common. In fact there's fewer things vulnerable to lockdown than weak against him.
It seems to me that the opposite holds true. Starting in the DMG for NPC's, Lockdown seems more than capable against them.
When you start adding prestige classes and other splat books, the numbers are still in his favor.
As I said before, for every Iot7FV there is a MotAO, an Eldritch Knight, or an Alienist. For each wizard with Extraordinary Spell Aim, there are countless others with any other feat that doesn't allow them to shape an AMF. For each wizard with a Tower Shield, there are those that use smaller shields. For each cleric of mystra is a cleric of gond, bane, lolth, etc.
The list goes on.
Depends on the build. I could dump around 80 damage per spring attack with no effort at all. I could probably top out at about 200 damage per spring attack between ToB and the PHB2 in an AMF.
I'm curious.
Is this assuming that Spring Attack allows standard actions? And that you can use Strikes with it?
You seem to have preconceived notions about what tactics can do what.
Of course I do. I don't see Spring Attackers on the CO Board.
Preconceived notions are entirely natural and calling me out on it is pointless. It's more important how people react to evidence that confirms or contradicts those notions.
Warblade with Strike of Perfect Clarity same stats as the lockdown, using a spike chain. Damage with a single hit? 2d4+15+100 before any other buffs, fears or equipment. Fighter is dead in 2 hits. 3 rounds if all we do is hit, refresh and hit again. if we make it a valorous weapon and get the charge (lockdown can't stop us until we're in range anyways), lockdown is dead in 1 hit.
And at levels before that? I'm fine with Lockdown making it to levels 17+ to be put down by an optimized warblade.
PC's aren't intended to survive every encounter.
Don't lose the context of the game.
Again, I could list a myriad of ways to actually work a killing people using reach that are far, far more effective than the lockdown is.
Lockdown is made to lock people down. In the process, he happens to deal double damage on attacks. He still has a party behind him to attack someone he has effectively locked down.
but the lockdown guy might have taken one level of Exotic Weapon Master and be able to make AoO on targets with cover (exotic reach stunt) so it is not a given. Actually I am going to say the lockdown will always have exotic reach, since all your casters always have all the things they need to survive.
The Precise Swing feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting allows you to ignore all effects of cover (but not total cover) when you attack.
It's unfortunate (and outlandish) that a Tower Shield provides you with Total Cover. But against anything less, Precise Swing would allow an AoO.
Casters have spells, cool, but that they can't cast in some circumstances. The lockdown works around bringing those circumstances to bear. The end. If the caster somehow manages to have a trick up his sleeve to save himself, that is nice. Most won't be able.
Bingo.
No, but it does make them learn from their mistakes quicker. A level 20 wizard with genius level int has been through enough that most miscalculations (such as the ones here) would simply be out of the question as those mistakes have likely been made or witnessed before.
That's Wisdom, not Int. INtelligent people can keep making the same mistake over and over because they are convinced it can't happen this time, or because they are approaching it from the wrong angle.
And Drak, your Veilist is sitting there inside his little veil...why in the world would Lock put his AMF up if it's going to be ineffective? He'd go THROUGH the Veil, with his nicely buffed +23 or so save, THEN put up the AMF. Have some common sense, eh? And if he wins initiative, you don't even have the Veil up!
And, um, are you saying the Veil grants you concealment? Then Pierce Magical Concealment gets rid of the Veil with a single blow...harmlessly.
The main reason the AMF option is there is to prevent shapeshifting (if the spell is up) to a form which might allow escape, or to disallow contingencies tied to teleports, to disallow swift spells which don't draw AoO's, or disallow magical items that teleport. No spellcaster is reasonably going to get off a normal spell while in Lockdown's reach, because they can't cast defensively.
Lockdown isn't too worried about casters winning initiative. Because the caster who wins initiative and focuses on the fighter in a party is either a) hosed because his Will save spell 'take control of the muscle' isn't going to work at all and b) it gives my casters time to take him down. Lockdown can take down casters because most casters don't have any reason to believe the fighter can be a threat to them. Especially casters relying on 'speed bump' animal companions and the like.
They are also ignoring the OTHER option of NOT activating the AMF and readying an action to cast if the spellcaster tries spellcasting. This is dangerous because of other vulnerabilities (items, especially), but hey, the casters here don't seem to use items, so what have you? Readied actions at least disrupt ANY attempt to cast a spell, and he really only has to spend them against Swift/Quick spells to keep a caster in place. The Reflex save should still be high enough to keep the caster planted.
Lockdown isn't an Arena build. Go fight in Arenas all you want to. If he was an Arena build, I'd be relying on GMW oils, lots of potions, and such stuff to leverage his buffs. He's a Build for adventuring.
Also, for the person using the Warblade build - The strike of Perfect Clarity is bonus dmg that is not doubled on a charge...it is added on at the end. No manuver has damage that is doubled or tripled unless it specifically says so...another Sage ruling.
With Steadfast Boots, that charging Warblade isn't going to get in close, and against Hold the Line, I'll just use the Readied action to hit him, Stand Still him, and then step 5' back and out of his reach with Sidestep or Evasive Reflexes. Actually, with Thicket, I'd get one more attack, so I could swat him, too....he'd charge in, take dmg, be unable to move, lose the manuver, and now it's my turn. The next turn, I can step back into reach, Overwhelming Assault, and somehow he has to get out of my reach while I'm throwing double Str Attacks at him and stopping him from moving.
Pat answers are never so easy. He'd be better off using something to teleport up alongside me, and then getting off the Strike.
Also, the Sage also ruled that if you are taking Total Cover behind a Tower Shield, that's ALL that you are doing. If you try to do anything else, you aren't taking Total Cover.
=========
Khan, you did a better job summarizing the whole reason I made up Lockdown then anyone else on the entire board. Kudos to you.
===Aelryinth
That's Wisdom, not Int. INtelligent people can keep making the same mistake over and over because they are convinced it can't happen this time, or because they are approaching it from the wrong angle.
Wisdom=perception
Charisma=presence
Intellect=learning
I fail to see how someone that is the D&D equivilant of a rocket scientist makes the same mistake twice. You're thinking of how ego can blind people. While many smart people have egos, few are blind.
And Drak, your Veilist is sitting there inside his little veil...why in the world would Lock put his AMF up if it's going to be ineffective? He'd go THROUGH the Veil, with his nicely buffed +23 or so save, THEN put up the AMF. Have some common sense, eh? And if he wins initiative, you don't even have the Veil up!
Personal wardings are skin tight, you can not go through them. And with reactive warding you can throw them up as an imediate action. Try reading what is posted and if you don't know what it actualy is, find it and read it before posting.
And, um, are you saying the Veil grants you concealment? Then Pierce Magical Concealment gets rid of the Veil with a single blow...harmlessly.
Incorrect, Personal wardings give you no actual concealment but completely cover you. And since they are prismatic effects they shield you from the AMF. So pierce magical protection does squat since the skin tight warding grants no concealment bonus.
The main reason the AMF option is there is to prevent shapeshifting (if the spell is up) to a form which might allow escape, or to disallow contingencies tied to teleports, to disallow swift spells which don't draw AoO's, or disallow magical items that teleport. No spellcaster is reasonably going to get off a normal spell while in Lockdown's reach, because they can't cast defensively.
Except for the IotSFV because they can do all of that in an AMF.
Lockdown isn't too worried about casters winning initiative. Because the caster who wins initiative and focuses on the fighter in a party is either a) hosed because his Will save spell 'take control of the muscle' isn't going to work at all and b) it gives my casters time to take him down. Lockdown can take down casters because most casters don't have any reason to believe the fighter can be a threat to them. Especially casters relying on 'speed bump' animal companions and the like.
Rampant flaming opinion of how things should be played out in your own mind. irrelevant.
They are also ignoring the OTHER option of NOT activating the AMF and readying an action to cast if the spellcaster tries spellcasting. This is dangerous because of other vulnerabilities (items, especially), but hey, the casters here don't seem to use items, so what have you? Readied actions at least disrupt ANY attempt to cast a spell, and he really only has to spend them against Swift/Quick spells to keep a caster in place. The Reflex save should still be high enough to keep the caster planted.
Fine you want the casters to start using items. I hit you with a bag of chocking and sneezing.
So again for the 50th frelling time:
1- You have to win initiative which you have yet to show any real way of doing except bit*$ and moan that casters aren't going to focus on initiative. Something that we have shown is both false and in fact casters can get much much higher int values than lockdown can dream of.
2- Has to start out within reasonable distance to the caster. Not likely since staying at range is something that caster specialize in.
3- The caster can't have any of the standard contingencies up and running. Yes yes you continue to again bit&$ and moan that "If someone acts before me in combat, cast celerity" goes off all the time. Guess what, it doesn't. It only goes of if the caster doesn't go first which is unlikely, see #1.
4- And for your whole surprise the caster line, you have yet to show how in the hell that will actually happen other then rely on an item of mindblank. Thats about as effective as saying "I am holding a buckler so you can never hit me".
You keep saying that lockdown is not an arena build yet you also continue to reject any situation other than an arena. You are not going to see a wizard walking along in an open field unguarded, with no buffs up, and no contingent spells. It doesn't happen.
Your entire build is just another case of "well with this fighter we can kill a caster if he's in situation 1, we take away abilities B C and D, and we restrict him to only using material from source E, and make him put his lowest ability score in int".
Well, there's also the "Shielded Casting" feat from Races of Stone which completely ruins its tactic, as it will allow a Caster to Cast without provoking any AoO's whatsoever. The only bad thing is that it requires the useless Combat Casting as prerequisite...
Not really given combat casting is a common prerequiste to many PrCs.
Wisdom=perception
Charisma=presence
Intellect=learning
I fail to see how someone that is the D&D equivilant of a rocket scientist makes the same mistake twice. You're thinking of how ego can blind people. While many smart people have egos, few are blind.
Intellect is about ability to absorb data and process it. It has nothing to do with making the correct decision on how to use all the data that you've processed. The smart person may pick the 'correct' decision he used in the past. The wise person picks the correct decision the first time.
===Aelryinth
Personal wardings are skin tight, you can not go through them. And with reactive warding you can throw them up as an imediate action. Try reading what is posted and if you don't know what it actualy is, find it and read it before posting.
It's a good thing you can't use Immediate actions while flat-footed, neh? And you've got to blow all those feats just to get into the class. Yeah, all spellcasters are now Veilists.
And I wasn't the one saying the Veils grant concealment...you were. I just pointed out that if they did, they were gone.
Incorrect, Personal wardings give you no actual concealment but completely cover you. And since they are prismatic effects they shield you from the AMF. So pierce magical protection does squat since the skin tight warding grants no concealment bonus.
So, in other words you were in error when you said they conceal you?
Except for the IotSFV because they can do all of that in an AMF.
Not if the shell is up FIRST. Which is the whole crux of the problem...you keep saying that he can get up his Veil and thumb his nose at the problem. Despite the fact that once his Veil is up, he's a walking, talking light bulb of a target. I'd also have to see the language on how the thing manifests...and at best, all the Veil does is allow him to Quickened Teleport AWAY. He still has line of effect to...nothing. He MUST have the required swift spell or magical item on hand, or he's STILL HOSED.
Rampant flaming opinion of how things should be played out in your own mind. irrelevant.
Rampant, flaming opinion of how you think things will never play out. Irrelevant.
Fine you want the casters to start using items. I hit you with a bag of chocking and sneezing.
And now you have to go all the way back to 2E to find a viable magic item to use? Ignoring the fact it hoses everyone, not just melee, while Dust of Suppression hoses casters and not melee?
So again for the 50th frelling time:
1- You have to win initiative which you have yet to show any real way of doing except bit*$ and moan that casters aren't going to focus on initiative. Something that we have shown is both false and in fact casters can get much much higher int values than lockdown can dream of.
*Rolls Eyes* Polymorph Any Object. Gets a Dex form as high as yours. Doesn't need to recast it. Cheese gone.
Force the caster to take Arena build Initiative enhancers instead of real feats. And still have the feats needed for his favorite PrC on top of it. Yep, like ALL casters are built that way. Yessirree. For the 5oth frelling time, you miss the point.
And yeah, every wizard in the world not only keeps his familiar, he gets a Hummingbird on top of it! Heh.
2- Has to start out within reasonable distance to the caster. Not likely since staying at range is something that caster specialize in.
And overcoming distance to a target is something any character can specialize in. Of course, you are ignoring that.
3- The caster can't have any of the standard contingencies up and running. Yes yes you continue to again bit&$ and moan that "If someone acts before me in combat, cast celerity" goes off all the time. Guess what, it doesn't. It only goes of if the caster doesn't go first which is unlikely, see #1.
And you continue to moan and complain and now directly insult me (totally undercutting your observational neutrality with personal attacks) by ignoring the fact that if 'celerity wins', then anyone of that level will have celerity, and they will win. now, is your contingency tied to celerity or to teleport? What's the language? What happens if someone decides to shoot an arrow at you, trigger your spells, and then run away? Are you going to run around with that same language over and over? The only language I'm seeing for contingencies is "arena language", because any caster trying to use the horrible triggers here is going to find his contingencies going off ALL the time, and not just when he's facing Lockdown.
See all prior arguments. And you can have initiative to the moon, and still be suprised, and there's still no guarantee every mage Lockdown is going to face is going to have suprise. Only this Arena build you are making that will probably get laughed out of a normal campaign.
4- And for your whole surprise the caster line, you have yet to show how in the hell that will actually happen other then rely on an item of mindblank. Thats about as effective as saying "I am holding a buckler so you can never hit me".
He only needs the Mindblank to stop the Foresight argument, which yet ANOTHER 9th level spell slot is somehow being spent on, and it also completely blocks the mage's first reaction on seeing muscle - "Oh, I'll just hit him with an Ultra High Level Dominate DC he'll never make, and he's out of the fight."
And when it doesn't work, the mage has now wasted his action. If we are talking instant Nova, then the casters on my side will instant Nova as well. I'm definitely NOT worried about this.
You keep saying that lockdown is not an arena build yet you also continue to reject any situation other than an arena. You are not going to see a wizard walking along in an open field unguarded, with no buffs up, and no contingent spells. It doesn't happen.
Actually, I keep rejecting the arena situation, which is what the casters keep positing. Lockdown works fine in a variety of situations. The spellcasters only seem to work fine in arena situations specifically contrived to make it impossible for him to get to them tactically, which boggles my mind when you turn it around on me.
Your entire build is just another case of "well with this fighter we can kill a caster if he's in situation 1, we take away abilities B C and D, and we restrict him to only using material from source E, and make him put his lowest ability score in int".
And all the caster arguments boil down to "If you take broken spell A, B and C, and tactical situations where nothing can touch me, and make very specific Arena-optimized builds, with the perfect set of spells in memory, more spells then I can cast, and everything contingent using the perfect language is still active, and my opponent is a total tactical idiot, we win every time. See, I can use inflammatory language, too.
Edited and done. Ran out of time this morning.
\\===Aelryinth
Incorrect, Personal wardings give you no actual concealment but completely cover you. And since they are prismatic effects they shield you from the AMF. So pierce magical protection does squat since the skin tight warding grants no concealment bonus.
The personal veil grants concealment (but not full concealment, much less cover) and although it might work in an AMF, it does not shield the initiate from the AMF in any way. Moreover it is the wrong veil to use against a spiked chain wielder, since it fails to have effect against an enemy with a reach weapon.
Ahh.. the lock. What happend here? I haven't read this since people were still saying great build. What page did the hating start on?
Edit:
This argument is Crazy long! There are some really intesting things I've read and questions I have about this.
1st. I just want to preface all that I'm about to say by "That is an incredibly good build" probbably really fun too.Thanx for that Aelryinth its really interesting"
Anyway. . . questions/statements or agree/disagree if you like
An optimized caster will always (or at least 99% of the time) defeat anoptimized non-caster. This is my thinking from all these years on the Co boards and I dont' think anyones disputing that, not seriously.
I think there is a "standard image" of a wizard in the laymans mind. Unfortunately I think that most people think of somekind of evoker or somthing, that being said, none of us are laymen as far as optimization terms.
So why do we not think of the general standard optimized wizard. Won't every wizard have a plan for antimagic this or that? Upon gaining 5th level spells doesn't every caster take wall of force? Its one of the few spells that dont' allow for antimagic so why not take it and assume 20 level casters have someway of dealing with antimagic fields?
Also, lets throw celerity on that same list, because someone who knows it takes it and probbably memorizes it everyday. Especially, since the PHB2 is clearly legal for this discussion.
Even with that I'm going to say that Lockdown will probbably kill any non-optimized spellcasters he comes across, and thats a whole lot of Spellcasters.
Optimized wizards probbably have better odds against him and for that matter better odds versus almost everything in existance. At least twice Aelryinth makes the statement "If you're not dead on the first round"
So clearly theres that thought that a wizard will kill you on the first round.
Or at least stop you or at least escape?
*Sigh* but its true if I am a wizard walking along alone in a dungeon and I bump into Lockdown, and I lose intiative or walk into his 10 radius, his combo will probbably go off and kill me... I'm not gonna be but it could happen.
....by the way....
What book is the torc of antimagic in?
Is it always on?
Isn't it cheap to use "packets of negation"? Isn't that like using packets and sneezing and choking? Or shivering touch?
What Im' getting at is
"Is there no limit to what we'll use to win our argument?" Is there no gentlemens rules, Lol? Are the gloves always off here or maybe it just seems that way cause we're all really passionate about our stances.
Still, is Previn right? Will we literally allow Iron heart surge to end any condition? Like kill a vampire by ending the condition "night". There gotta be some reference to the practical rules of optimization here somewhere (as much as I hate to say it). Or at least somethings that make us all go "okay thats ridiculous" otherwise its just point/counter-point escalation. Which you know... often comes off as "nu-uh" "uh-huh"; "is so" "is not".
I'd like to end by saying, even if its not your favorite you gotta at least respect "Lockdown" as a hellishly effective (FIGHTER 20!) build.
Intellect is about ability to absorb data and process it. It has nothing to do with making the correct decision on how to use all the data that you've processed. The smart person may pick the 'correct' decision he used in the past. The wise person picks the correct decision the first time.
===Aelryinth
So geniuses are all high wisdom low int?
So geniuses are all high wisdom low int?
*disregard*
Without overpowering assault the Standstill save is still ridiculously high. Too high for just about anyone in an AMF.
No, it's not even remotely close. In an AMF, without Overpowering Assualt, the average save is only 31. A rogue with no dex mod can make the save (though only on a 19 or 20). At high levels a 31 isn't entirely reliable, and is nothing close to "ridiculously high."
Which isn't that big of an assumption to be honest. I mean, you're walking in a dungeon and blam! There's a monster down the hall, or in the room you just entered, or you found the cultist and the altar.
Far far down the hall more than 75'? Is there a trap in the way? Rubble? Is the cultist with allies? Are there undead milling about the room? Is he behind the alter, thus having partial cover and not provoking AoO anyways?
Yeah, it's a big assumption.
It's not as if anyone is suggesting that Lockdown will get a lock down in every single encounter and that no circumstance can stop it.
Yeah, and lockdown isn't hold dragons at bay as the OP says either.
Yeah. Gate.
Planar Exchange as well, and others.
You'll forgive me if I don't assume all casters are optimized to cast within an AMF and have spells prepared precisely for AMF fighters.
But truthfully, I am very interested in knowing the supposed weaknesses to attempt to shore them up.
It would take a while to list out all the spells that can be used effectively against a target in an AMF.
As I said before, tearing a build down is ridiculously easy. Attempting to shore up the weaknesses is more difficult.
It's not the build we're tearing down, it the tactics as presented and flawed assumption behind them.
With an Enlarge spell on, he has 20' reach. If the wizard is flying, he has no need to activate his AMF. If he's using Dust of Negation, then there is also no problem.
With an enlarge spell, his magical reach is 20'. Any part of a creature within an AMF loses the magical boost to reach. So no, he's not getting to the caster.
From what I can gather of the dust of negation, it creates an AMF at a location for a few minutes, which would also be pointless against the flying caster. You take away his flight, he falls out of the AMF and then resumes flying.
Further, Aelryinth created Lockdown trying to assume as little as possible for the actual build. He tried to leave as many general feats open as possible, and refrained from hinging the build on a particular race or alignment. For that I commend him because it was an issue he brought up against my particular fighter builds in other threads, and I like that he stuck to his guns and remained consistent.
He really hasn't. He claims "You’ve got Six Feats to play with, Five if you aren’t human." So the only one we know for sure is the able learner feat. We'll remove that and see what's left for 5 feats?
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery.
2 general feats and 3 fighter feats that he can change out without gutting the build/tactics. And if he does? -4 to hit and -6 to damage. That drops the save for standstill to an average of 33, which nominal for high levels. (see the rogue example above)
That said, I'm not holding to the same restrictions. Obviously a large race would be vastly superior than relying on magical size increases, especially when you have a habit of throwing out AMF's. A half-ogre with a spiked chain has a 20' reach that doesn't depend on magic.
Or a druid's air elemental companion with huge size, thicket of blades, standstill and a spiked chain with the Anti-magic torc. But then I listed that pages ago.
In fact the biggest problem with the "tactics" is that apparently reach is unheard of along with the spiked chain, not so common as to be almost redundant.
Well, if you can't lock him down or even attack him in the air, why not fall on him (bringing him to the ground) and grapple him? It's certainly an option, especially when you have teammates on the ground that wouldn't mind stabbing the wizard anyways.
How high up are you? Can you move even further to get there? Does the wizard have allies on the ground waiting to stab lockdown too?
Swift spells can indeed get by AoO's. But this only matters if the caster can cast in an AMF in the first place. And despite how common you want to make that seem, it simply isn't.
*sighs* Missing the whole damned point.
AMF is crap. The tactic is crap because it relies 100% on the AMF to do the work the first round. If ANYTHING goes wrong, the tactic is screwed and the 'lockdown' is little more then so much chum the same as all build lacking actual casting ability are.
It can't lockdown the casters without the AMF. If it doesn't get that in the start, it's not even worth discussing. All the casters have already realized this point.
Lockdown doesn't do what's it's adverted to do unless it gets luck. And then there's nothing about it that is inimical to against casters that anyone else can't get, and in many cases do better.
In fact you seem to think that the melee lasses have an easy and common time getting in melee range of casters, which is directly contrary to most any common sense tactics of placing casters behind the front lines or meat shields.
Oh, but of course the caster is always alone and lockdown always has friends! I forgot about that!
But to be honest, saying that an Initiate of Mystra can cast in an AMF isn't saying much. Lockdown still prevents him from moving, still hits him for each attack at double damage, and still stops him from casting defensively. Lockdown can still knock out his strongest buff (Righteous Might), and dispel others.
It's saying a lot. The whole point of AMF was the basic admission that is the casters can cast, lockdown dies. Also a key point in why it has to go first and get the casters in the AMF the first round.
Lockdown can't dispel anything except those running spells that provide a direct bonus to AC. The Cleric doesn't need to move, just cast a spell and kill the fighter.
So while *one* type of cleric (of the many that can exist in any game world) can still cast in an AMF, it doesn't somehow completely shut down the build. Spells are strong of course, no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that PC's have no chance once a caster casts spells.
I'm sorry, can't exist? YOu might want to take you campaign centric remarks and thrown them out. "If it has a place in D&D, it has a place in Ebberron." In fact the only "campaign specific" part of feat is the god. You're telling me that a home game can't have Mystria? Or that they can't just say it applies to a different god? Damn, it's not like they have adaptation sections printed in all books these days is it?
I really hate the "campaign specific" argument because it's so assaine and egotistical.
I doubt it. Assuming they are hampered in an AMF...
Spiked Chain Cleric: Lockdown outreaches them. If not (assuming he isn't naturally large and he's using the Torc of Antimagic instead of Dust of Negation), he matches the cleric's reach. But while the cleric gets his puny unbuffed full attack off, Lockdown gets an AoO for each one at double damage, on top of his attack on his turn at double damage.
He's not large! He doesn't out reach them! If so, I'll ask why we can't have large clerics? Welcome to the arms war! My guy is bigger! I'm doing the same thing but with a cleric, I'll make my guy bigger! I'll make mine BIGGER! My cleric will then be BIGGER!
Then the druid walks over with his huge air elemental with a spiked chain and... oh wait.
Spring Attack: I believe that Thicket of Blades overrides Spring Attack, but since Aelryinth assumes it doesn't, I'll honor that (doing otherwise would probably open a big can of distracting worms). That said, while the cleric doesn't provoke for his movement, his attack still provokes Robilar's. Standstill kicks in.
Don't know how spring attack works? Move (provoking no AoO), attack (Take the standstill and half as if having used up all movement, but not actually using all movement up, and we're not moving, so it doesn't matter), move (doesn't provoke AoO).
Tripping: Hampered by an AMF, it is doubtful he could trip Lockdown. But assuming he even did, Lockdown still threatens, and so he still gets his AoO's. Since the cleric's AC, Attack, and Damage are down from the AMF, Lockdown can probably still hit him while prone, and outdamage him. Since AoO's fuel the lockdown, Lockdown can probably just use his action to stand up and take another hit (assuming the cleric can hit Lockdown while debuffed).
Depends on the build, in general I would agree with you. but that I can say depends on the build goes back again to it's not even remotely a sure thing.
Tower Shield: If he is using cover, he's giving up his attacks. I don't see how that is deadly. That said... I think my version of Lockdown may include some sundering options
Again, the use of a Tower Sheild isn't to provide defense for attacking, but cover to allow other things, primarily spellcasting. It is basically a portable wall.
Could you point me to this demosntration? Does anyone know the page or post number?
It's spread over several posts, I'll see about digging them up and reposting them in a condensed format.
Are we assuming that getting cover from a Tower Shield doesn't take an action?
No, we are assuming that it is possible to take cover, and move 30' thus disrupting the lockdown and/or cast a quickened or swift spell.
Gishes generally rely on their spells to augment their melee. A 16 BAB does not a warrior make.
Massive assumption since we're already including ToB as explicitly allowed. I don't think a Ruby Knight Vinidcator or Jade Pheonix Mage would agree with that. I think an Arcane Trickster or Dagger Spell Mage might have some issues with that statement too. These are not uncommon things here.
It's not bias. It's the understanding that for every 'AMF-shaping, tower-shield wielding, spring attacking cleric' there are other clerics that simply don't do that stuff. For every wizard that is an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, there is a wizard that is an Incantatrix, a Mage of the Arcane Order, or a Geometer/Fatespinner.
A incantatrix is an interesting thing you bring up since it is also capable of shaping the opposing AMF to non-useful shapes (alibet as an SU ability). A Mage of the Arcane Order could have Invoke magic ready (actually most arcane casters could, including the previously mentioned incantatrix) and thus be able to use the earlier offered Dimension Door to get out.
Geometer/Fatespinner? Attack of the bad builds there? Yeah, I supposed that if he wasn't using Invoke Magic, he would have some problems too.
I'm not unbiased, I just don't think that these one in a million characters determine whether or not a build works.
When the number of possible builds numbers in the trillions, being 1 in a million is a pretty damned good thing. Of course, you're greatly exaggerating the likely hood the lockdown meeting someone who will either kill him or not be bothered by the lockdown. It's just not an uncommon thing unless you talking a very narrow selection of caster types, and even then, it's more about them being unprepared rather than having no options.
I don't believe you can start a grapple with a sword in one hand and a shield in the other. You have to grab your opponent. Not to mention, the standard sword and board fighter will lack Improved Grapple and draw an AoO himself. If the wizard hits and deals damage (possible since the fighter is effectively debuffed) the attempt fails.
Moving the goal post, but whatever. if we were to take lockdown, slap a sword and shield on it and have it do said action against the wizard (drop the sword, make an AoO). The wizard makes his attack against an AC of 23. With his BAB of 10, and has only a 40% chance to hit the fighter. That could be better it we were focusing on armor in an AMF.
Incidentally, while I would think that you'd need an empty hand or the equivalent to grapple, I can't find anything stating that.
You ready to move once. The wizard can withdraw and then cast a quickened spell.
Lockdown attempts to stop that stuff from happening. The AMF is not the build.
Hey, in fact it is the build as you've just help demonstrate! Lockdown tries to keep the casters from... moving out of... the AMF.
I'm not being obtuse. I'm looking through my 5 monster manuals for the monster entries that include smokestick in their possessions.
The I would suggest you look up the treasure entry description in the MM, the Treasure entry in the DMG (pg.52) and then start generating treasure and equipping creatures as you are supposed to do. That's like saying no NPCs use a magic weapon unless it's specifically listed in the MM entry.
See, it's possible that a DM might throw an enemy with Smokesticks at the party. But it's also extremely likely that he won't.
In your opinion. They're quite common in my games, both for PCs and NPCs. Your opinion isn't fact, and doesn't mean that Smoke Sticks aren't a viable solution to the problem.
Well, you either assume that the majority of the NPC wizards in the gameworld have a Contingency (Celerity) spell going or you don't.It would be based on how often they have to deal with certain things. Invoke Magic may not be common unless you have a bunch of people running around with AMF. Of course, how common anything is is completely off topic since you can't ever, ever prove it besides how important you thing your game and play style is in the grand scheme of things.
If your argmeunt is "people wouldn't do that always!" Yeah, they might not, but that doesn't mean the can't do it, that it doesn't work, or that in fact it may be very common. As I pointed out many many months ago, the 'solution' is as simple as winning initiative and killing lockdown before he does anything in the first round. Is trying to go first no something everyone tried to do?
To paraphrase: "But it's not common" isn't a valid argument to wether or not something works against lockdown.Lockdown can easily be put through a game where he locks down his fair share of casters in many party encounters. Then he runs up against a couple throughout his career that are actually built to handle AMF's. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's not like in all 20 of his levels he will consistently fight AMF/Tower Shield wizards and Mystra Clerics. Or people with Smokestick obsessions.
I agree with this. Starting off, he's unlikely as a PC to face pure casters that will be prepared for him. At the same time there's a ton of things, both critters and NPCs that will happily wade into combat with lockdown and eat him. His only real caster 'trick' is AMF, and his only real melee 'trick' is his reach. It's just not that good.You said the the caster might have an animal companion, familiar, or party member. I said that Lockdown also has a party behind him.
Where am I grasping for straws? Literally all I said is that Lockdown has a party as well. I didn't even deny what you said.
No, you didn't say as well. YOu said: "Lockdown has a party behind him." In fact, I'm relatively sure that every time you're referenced the caster, you've done it in the singular and haven't mentioned anything that would could use to infer the presence of others with the caster.It seems to me that the opposite holds true. Starting in the DMG for NPC's, Lockdown seems more than capable against them.
Really? At what levels? Picka few and I'll do a quick comparison with SRD critters for you.When you start adding prestige classes and other splat books, the numbers are still in his favor.
Well, since he needs at least 2 splat books for it to be possible...As I said before, for every Iot7FV there is a MotAO, an Eldritch Knight, or an Alienist. For each wizard with Extraordinary Spell Aim, there are countless others with any other feat that doesn't allow them to shape an AMF. For each wizard with a Tower Shield, there are those that use smaller shields. For each cleric of mystra is a cleric of gond, bane, lolth, etc.
The list goes on.I'm curious.
Is this assuming that Spring Attack allows standard actions? And that you can use Strikes with it?Not at all. It assumes a single spring attack. Low damage would just assume basic hits, the high damage was a quick sneak attack number.Of course I do. I don't see Spring Attackers on the CO Board.
Preconceived notions are entirely natural and calling me out on it is pointless. It's more important how people react to evidence that confirms or contradicts those notions.
I was calling you out on all of your preconceived notions about what tactics could be used, not just spring attack. Again, the spiked chain is a ridiculously used weapon, so it's there's lot's of talk about what it can do, and how to use it, and lots of builds for it.
But if the only way you know how to use it is because of what you're read on the boards....And at levels before that? I'm fine with Lockdown making it to levels 17+ to be put down by an optimized warblade.
PC's aren't intended to survive every encounter.
Don't lose the context of the game.
Actually, PCs aren't intended to die. I would think the fact that Raise Dead, the first time PC have access to recovery methods from death in core, is unavailable for basically half the game, says that.Lockdown is made to lock people down. In the process, he happens to deal double damage on attacks. He still has a party behind him to attack someone he has effectively locked down.
I know what he's supposed to do and how he's supposed to do it. The problem is the method he's chosen to deploy it isn't all that great given his limited reach and mobility.
Please forgive the typos, I doubt I'll wade through to correct them given the length of this post.
P.S. much respect Khan, even if I come off as disrespectful.
I think there is a "standard image" of a wizard in the laymans mind. Unfortunately I think that most people think of somekind of evoker or somthing, that being said, none of us are laymen as far as optimization terms.
Probably the key point. Everyone is assuming that a 'wizard' will be a certain way, which isn't always true.
What book is the torc of antimagic in?
Underdark
Is it always on?
One use per day, casts an AMF on you as per the spell.
Still, is Previn right? Will we literally allow Iron heart surge to end any condition? Like kill a vampire by ending the condition "night".
Yes, sadly it is. There's a thread somewhere on this forum about it and the absurdity of it and CustSer's ruling.
I'd like to end by saying, even if its not your favorite you gotta at least respect "Lockdown" as a hellishly effective (FIGHTER 20!) build.
I agree, it's one of the better fighter builds I've seen, but it's not nearly as effective as advertised, which is my major problem with it.
The personal veil grants concealment (but not full concealment, much less cover) and although it might work in an AMF, it does not shield the initiate from the AMF in any way. Moreover it is the wrong veil to use against a spiked chain wielder, since it fails to have effect against an enemy with a reach weapon.
1- Dual warding. You use violet and idigo. The indigo veil stops all spells and spell like abilities from pasing.
2- Piercce magical protection would negate the concealment bonus but would still have to hit the IotSFV to negate them which means passig the violet veil.
3- A spicked chain is non-living matter. The violet veil spacifically states that all non-living matter is hit by a disintigrate. Regardless of reach weaon or not the violet veil will have an effect on it.
1- Dual warding. You use violet and idigo. The indigo veil stops all spells and spell like abilities from pasing.
But then the wizard cannot cast spells outside the veil either.
2- Piercce magical protection would negate the concealment bonus but would still have to hit the IotSFV to negate them which means passig the violet veil.
3- A spicked chain is non-living matter. The violet veil spacifically states that all non-living matter is hit by a disintigrate. Regardless of reach weaon or not the violet veil will have an effect on it.
Hit by disintegrate means a save is allowed.
Regardless, even if it works as you want it working, this means before level 16 the Iot7V is still terribly vulnerable to a lockdown build. The violet veil is the last one to be learned. 75% of the game that wizard is still vulnerable. And this only if it s a wizard that goes into Iot7V as soon as he can.
But then the wizard cannot cast spells outside the veil either.
Hit by disintegrate means a save is allowed.
Regardless, even if it works as you want it working, this means before level 16 the Iot7V is still terribly vulnerable to a lockdown build. The violet veil is the last one to be learned. 75% of the game that wizard is still vulnerable. And this only if it s a wizard that goes into Iot7V as soon as he can.
Lockdown waits til level 16 to get a decent standstill dc.
Lockdown waits til level 16 to get a decent standstill dc.
If by decent you mean DC 60...
Actually Standstills around DC 30 are impossible to pass for most casters, most of which have weak ref save. A rogue might do it, but probably not reliably.
If by decent you mean DC 60...
Actually Standstills around DC 30 are impossible to pass for most casters, most of which have weak ref save. A rogue might do it, but probably not reliably.
Since the enemy *has* to fail the save, I'd say that 30 isn't enough for a "not an arena vs just wizards" build.
Since the enemy *has* to fail the save, I'd say that 30 isn't enough for a "not an arena vs just wizards" build.
Well, see. In an AMF and assuming a cleric/wizard that has not dumped dex and has 14, this means +5 to save at level 10, +7 at 15 and +8 at 20, or 5% of making it. Favored Souls would fare better, but even a +14 at level 20 means just a 25% chances of escaping.
Nope, I don't see them doing the DC 30.
DC 60 is overkill, for when you need to pin a Dex 32 rogue on crack. Or a balor.
Well, see. In an AMF and assuming a cleric/wizard that has not dumped dex and has 14, this means +5 to save at level 10, +7 at 15 and +8 at 20, or 5% of making it. Favored Souls would fare better, but even a +14 at level 20 means just a 25% chances of escaping.
Nope, I don't see them doing the DC 30.
DC 60 is overkill, for when you need to pin a Dex 32 rogue on crack. Or a balor.
Yeah. It's not just supposed to lockdown wizards/clerics, right? It's supposed to be useful vs everyting. Right? It's not just useful vs full casters because of an AMF, right?
Well, see. In an AMF and assuming a cleric/wizard that has not dumped dex and has 14, this means +5 to save at level 10, +7 at 15 and +8 at 20, or 5% of making it. Favored Souls would fare better, but even a +14 at level 20 means just a 25% chances of escaping.
Nope, I don't see them doing the DC 30.
And of course only the Favored Soul has a good reflex save and will never want a high dex score.
No one ever goes for Arcane Trickesters or Bards, or plays dex focused builds in classes with good reflex saves like rogues, monks or rangers and swordsages just suck so much so that it's right out....
Yeah. It's not just supposed to lockdown wizards/clerics, right? It's supposed to be useful vs everyting. Right? It's not just useful vs full casters because of an AMF, right?
Right. It will lock almost anything. See, in an AMF the lockdown needs to use power attack, but he can, because the AC of even the best armored divine caster is crap. However a balor (for instance) has AC 35 even in the AMF, no PA is advisable, so Overpowering Attack is needed (fortunately at level 20 it should be there). And since without the AMF the balor can just teleport away, the AMF is needed.
For a normal rogue, no AMF is needed, so the fighter has a lot of strength boosters and magical bonus to damage, and the DC of the Stand Still is going to be very, very high. AMF becomes needed only when the enemy can escape using magic easily without provoking an AoO or it is just too dangerous to be allowed to use magic.
Right. It will lock almost anything. See, in an AMF the lockdown needs to use power attack, but he can, because the AC of even the best armored divine caster is crap. However a balor (for instance) has AC 35 even in the AMF, no PA is advisable, so Overpowering Attack is needed (fortunately at level 20 it should be there). And since without the AMF the balor can just teleport away, the AMF is needed.
So, how does lockdown fight balors? It's supposed to be able to lock anything...
So, how does lockdown fight balors? It's supposed to be able to lock anything...
The main problem is getting close enough to use AMF, assuming it is done (through using a Belt of Battles or some wizardly transposition):
This happens:
bab +20
Strength 24 (base 14, +5 levels, +5 inherent) +7 to hit
Feats (focus/mastery) +4 to hit
Deft Oportunistic +4 to hit on AoOs
Masterwork spiked chain +1 to hit
Total +36 to hit against AC 35. So hits 95% of the time.
Damage 2d4 + 10 (str) + 6 (feats) = 21 on average. DC to escape with Overwhelming Attack 52 (10 + double average damage)
Balor ref save: +19 (notice in the AMF the DR does not work). It is locked. The balor cannot escape unless he kills the fighter through melee. Every time he hits the fighter, it takes 42 hp of damage from Robilar's. It dies in 8 hits. It is unlikely he can kill the fighter in 8 hits although he might be able if he patiently power-attacks the fighter once per round using just his best (+32) attack, grabbing the sword two-handedly and using a lot of PA.
But the Balor loses to lockdown because even if the lockdown does not kill it alone, the rest of the party, safe beyond the AMF, rips it apart.
Edit: this is a good example of why Overwhelming Attack is good. Without it the DC 31 of Stand Still is not enough to keep the balor from leaving. A balor would pass the save with a 12, 45% of the time. The lockdown could try to use PA for 4 points to raise that to 20, but then he would miss the attacks 10% of the time. Against a pit fiend (AC 39) it would be worse.
But then the wizard cannot cast spells outside the veil either.
Hit by disintegrate means a save is allowed.
Regardless, even if it works as you want it working, this means before level 16 the Iot7V is still terribly vulnerable to a lockdown build. The violet veil is the last one to be learned. 75% of the game that wizard is still vulnerable. And this only if it s a wizard that goes into Iot7V as soon as he can.
Did you even bother reading all of my post? I spacifically called out the fort save his weapon would have to make and showed that he would need to roll a 20 to pass. And it's not "working as I want it to work" it's RAW, it's how the frelling ability works as written. As for not casting spells outside of teh veil that is also incorrect. I merely can't cast spells that land in the AMF. So any spell with a short range or longer (oh I don't know gate amybe) is perfectly fine so long as I have it land outside of the AMF. The indigo veil is one-way. read the ability before posting.
Overall, I like this build! Though the trick is simple, it can still counter so many situations, even if resorting to an item, but what would the Fighter otherwise spend his money on? After all, ale is only like one silver for a fair tankard...
Did you even bother reading all of my post? I spacifically called out the fort save his weapon would have to make and showed that he would need to roll a 20 to pass. And it's not "working as I want it to work" it's RAW, it's how the frelling ability works as written. As for not casting spells outside of teh veil that is also incorrect. I merely can't cast spells that land in the AMF. So any spell with a short range or longer (oh I don't know gate amybe) is perfectly fine so long as I have it land outside of the AMF. The indigo veil is one-way. read the ability before posting.
First: I read your post, post #508. You make no mention to any save, you merely declare the weapon will be hit by a disintegrate.
Second: the veils duplicate the effects of a prismatic wall, so they are bi-directional, nothing in the PrC say they work only in one direction except for people moving out, you are imagining things if you think the caster can use magic across the violet veil. In particular the caster cannot cast magic outside the personal veil, which is 5' around himself, and it is going to be a very small Gate if he opens one. That how the frelling ability works as written.
First: I read your post, post #508. You make no mention to any save, you merely declare the weapon will be hit by a disintegrate.
Second: the veils duplicate the effects of a prismatic wall, so they are bi-directional, nothing in the PrC say they work only in one direction except for people moving out, you are imagining things if you think the caster can use magic across the violet veil. In particular the caster cannot cast magic outside the personal veil, which is 5' around himself, and it is going to be a very small Gate if he opens one. That how the frelling ability works as written.
Really then whats this on post 485
You try and attack me for casting a spell, make a fort save in the mid 30's or your weapon is disintigrated by the violet veil I have up as my personal warding befre it ever touches me. and mid 30's is conservative. The save for veils is 18 + integrated spell (8 for violet as described in it's entry) + primary spell casting modifier + any feats that up SU abilities. So 18 +8 = a DC of 26 before ability modifiers and feats. And to make it better lockdown in an AMF has a fort save of +14 for a +12 base and a con mod of +2. a +6 mod (22) int will force you to roll a 20 or loose your weapon and thats easily atained via items and buffs which don't go inactive due to the personal warding.
As for being one way I yield on that one. It was my mistake. However the IotSFV can still cast buffs and teleport anywhere since the veil moves with him/her in which case it is now at range and lockdown is still in an AMF and subsequently screwed.
Can other classes make this build? A Psychic Warrior has enough feats to do it…but he won’t have six left over, and he won’t be able to get the kind of Stand Still Lock a Fighter can. His BAB is going to be horrible, and he won’t be able to use any of his Psi stuff in an AMF, which means a real caster lock is going to be almost impossible since they can buff up higher then he can. And the -8 to his casting level for the Anti-Mage feats would kill him.
Hi!
I don't know if that was already brought up (and frankly, I don't want to read through 18 pages...), but actually, the two Anti-Mage-Feats are very useful for the Psy-Warrior: They lower caster-level, not manifester-level. These are two seperate things, as far as I know - that's why you can't use Practiced Spellcaster as a Psion. That still doesn't solve the AMF-Problem, though. Perhaps somebody more experienced with optimization than I am finds a way to use the Psy-Warrior despite this drawback...
Hi!
I don't know if that was already brought up (and frankly, I don't want to read through 18 pages...), but actually, the two Anti-Mage-Feats are very useful for the Psy-Warrior: They lower caster-level, not manifester-level. These are two seperate things, as far as I know - that's why you can't use Practiced Spellcaster as a Psion. That still doesn't solve the AMF-Problem, though. Perhaps somebody more experienced with optimization than I am finds a way to use the Psy-Warrior despite this drawback...
Not relying on AMF would do the trick. Either that or slayer.
Well, there's also the "Shielded Casting" feat from Races of Stone which completely ruins its tactic, as it will allow a Caster to Cast without provoking any AoO's whatsoever.
This is the kind of language that is dangerous in threads like this.
Shielded Casting does not completely ruin the tactic. Against any caster that can't cast spells within an AMF, the ability to avoid AoO's is irrelevant because you can't cast spells.
Against the 3 casters that can cast spells in an AMF, the ability is irrelevant because we're assuming they use swift spells.
The only reason I brought up Shielded Casting in my post was to demonstrate a shield-using wizard that is just as possible as the tower-shield using wizard, and probably much more likely.
No, it's not even remotely close. In an AMF, without Overpowering Assualt, the average save is only 31. A rogue with no dex mod can make the save (though only on a 19 or 20). At high levels a 31 isn't entirely reliable, and is nothing close to "ridiculously high."
I'll concede the point that it is not ridiculously high for just about anyone as I said. But for those without a high reflex save, I still think it is.
But as far as I'm concerned, the AMF is not for everyone. The AMF is reserved for casters or supernatural monsters. My point about not using Overwhelming Attack is that he can throw the Dust as a standard action, move to the caster and that's it.
If he doesn't seem to need the AMF, such as against a warrior or rogue, he instead uses some item to move into position (like a Belt of Battle) and then uses Overpowering Attack. So while a Rogue has a chance to make the save, the DC may be higher because Lockdown won't be in an AMF (which also means the rogue's save is higher) and Lockdown doesn't have to use a standard action to throw the dust.
It's saying a lot. The whole point of AMF was the basic admission that is the casters can cast, lockdown dies. Also a key point in why it has to go first and get the casters in the AMF the first round.
I really don't care. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. If you think wizards are going to kill any PC on round 1 unless they are stopped by an AMF, that's fine. My games are played a little differently.
The Cleric doesn't need to move, just cast a spell and kill the fighter.
*shrugs*
Easy to say I suppose.
I'm sorry, can't exist? YOu might want to take you campaign centric remarks and thrown them out. "If it has a place in D&D, it has a place in Ebberron." In fact the only "campaign specific" part of feat is the god. You're telling me that a home game can't have Mystria? Or that they can't just say it applies to a different god? Damn, it's not like they have adaptation sections printed in all books these days is it?
I really hate the "campaign specific" argument because it's so assaine and egotistical.
I'm going to refrain from using the same attitude and tone that you are since it's obvious to me you misunderstood my point. It's not that a cleric of Mystra can't exist (which I didn't say in my post, reread it). It's that alongside Mystra, there are 118 other gods in Faerun that have clerics too. And the clerics of those 118 other gods cannot cast spells in an AMF.
So, I understand your point that some stuff gets around the lockdown. I understand that each little one adds up to another little one and becomes quite a few things that can get around Lockdown.
My point is that on the flip side, there's a whole lot of other guys that can't get around the lockdown as easily. For each 1 example that you list that gets around an AMF, whether it's an Archmage, an Iot7FV, an Initiate of Mystra, there are hundreds or thousands of examples that don't get around an AMF.
In other words, while neither one of us can say exactly what type of opponents Lockdown will face, and as such all we can do is list examples of what could be, the numbers involved simply support my point of view.
If you assume a prestige class, I can assume another one. If you assume a feat, I can assume another one. And so on. In the end, you will run out of ways to cast spells in an AMF, but I will still have plenty of resources to generate NPC's for the campaign world.
He's not large! He doesn't out reach them! If so, I'll ask why we can't have large clerics? Welcome to the arms war! My guy is bigger! I'm doing the same thing but with a cleric, I'll make my guy bigger! I'll make mine BIGGER! My cleric will then be BIGGER!
My version of Lockdown will be large. And as I said, if the cleric is the same size and has the same reach as Lockdown, Lockdown still outdamages him.
Who cares about your arms race? You are hypothesizing one possible enemy out of many. So your Large cleric matches Lockdown's reach. Big deal. The next cleric might be a medium-sized character. Or a halfling cleric of Yondalla.
Of do little people not exist in your game-worlds because of their size penalties to important combat statistics?
Don't know how spring attack works? Move (provoking no AoO), attack (Take the standstill and half as if having used up all movement, but not actually using all movement up, and we're not moving, so it doesn't matter), move (doesn't provoke AoO).
It's not Spring Attack. It's Standstill. It didn't work as I though, so that particular point is moot.
That said, I mentioned earlier to include more battlefield control, and this would be a great reason to. Sundering a spring attacker's weapon or tripping him are both good options.
As I work with Lockdown, I'll try to maintain a lockdown as much as possible. If it's not possible, I'll simply try to still have useful options open.
Depends on the build, in general I would agree with you. but that I can say depends on the build goes back again to it's not even remotely a sure thing.
So... it's unsure whether a cleric in an AMF can Trip Lockdown or not, but it's certain what spells casters will know and that the first round of combat means death if the caster wins initiative.
Somehow, one depends on the build, but the other doesn't.
A incantatrix is an interesting thing you bring up since it is also capable of shaping the opposing AMF to non-useful shapes (alibet as an SU ability).
How does an Incantatrix use a supernatural ability in an AMF?
And are we assuming she has the right metamagic feat as well to do what you propose?
A Mage of the Arcane Order could have Invoke magic ready (actually most arcane casters could, including the previously mentioned incantatrix) and thus be able to use the earlier offered Dimension Door to get out.
It's possible, but (as you put it) not even remotely a sure thing.
Geometer/Fatespinner? Attack of the bad builds there?
Bad builds? What in the world are you tlaking about? Are you telling me that all casters are the same in your games? It's not enough to just get them 9th level spells, they have to have the same prestige classes over and over and over again?
Geometer actually makes sense for an NPC, since it reduces costs and NPC wizards need money just like anyone else. Fatespinner is great for an NPC facing the party because he can spin the encounter in his favor.
*shrugs*
We'll just have to agree to disagree on who is allowed to exist in a game world. I don't need for all my encounters to be potential TPK's to have a good time at the table.
It's just not an uncommon thing unless you talking a very narrow selection of caster types, and even then, it's more about them being unprepared rather than having no options.
Any selection of casters I make is not nearly as narrow as your list of those that can cast within an AMF or those that use Tower Shields. You're the one picking exceptions here, not me.
To paraphrase: "But it's not common" isn't a valid argument to wether or not something works against lockdown.
My argument is not 'It's not common, therefore it doesn't work against Lockdown.'
You're making a strong case that Lockdown simply doesn't work and listing a handful of cases why.
My argument is that some of those cases simply aren't that common, and as such, they shouldn't weigh in so heavily on whether or not Lockdown works.
No, you didn't say as well. YOu said: "Lockdown has a party behind him." In fact, I'm relatively sure that every time you're referenced the caster, you've done it in the singular and haven't mentioned anything that would could use to infer the presence of others with the caster.
Assume all you want from that single sentence. I said Lockdown also has a party behind him. You were saying that the caster may have allies, I was saying that Lockdown also has allies.
Since I didn't reference the caster at all in the sentence, the word him at the end of the sentence is referring to Lockdown, as in a party is backing him up.
Probably the key point. Everyone is assuming that a 'wizard' will be a certain way, which isn't always true.
I'm certainly not. I'm assuming the exact opposite. My entire point is that they will not be the same. They will not all be able to avoid an AMF. In fact, most won't.
In other words, I'm not the one assuming all casters are Iot7FV, Archamges, Initiates of Mystra, and/or know the Invoke Magic spell. Especially considering the plethora of prestige classes and spell options available in 3.5.
I am more than willing to say that Lockdown fails to do what he does against some, but not against others.
The AMF stuff isn't really an issue for me personally because I don't believe a DM will make every caster that way.
I'll work on other things like initiative, cover/concealment/terrain, etc.
As for being one way I yield on that one. It was my mistake. However the IotSFV can still cast buffs and teleport anywhere since the veil moves with him/her in which case it is now at range and lockdown is still in an AMF and subsequently screwed.
That is true, however... remember that I said 'if it works as you say'?
I meant 'if the veils can survive in an AMF'. I thought they couldn't, since they are not a prismatic wall spell, but a spell-like ability, however I decided to ask a third party before posting a controversial statement. A few minutes ago I got this from CustServ:
Me: I have a question about the veils the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil can create. It is mentioned in the text they work like the prismatic effects of Prismatic Wall. Does that mean the veils are invulnerable to Anti-Magic Field?
They: The warding is the effect that we're concerned about. The warding ability is spell-like and can therefore be suppressed by an anti-magic field. The veils that you put on the warding just duplicate the effects of a layer of the prismatic wall spell. It does not recreate the spell itself.
So the Iot7V falls to the Lockdown too.
That is true, however... remember that I said 'if it works as you say'?
I meant 'if the veils can survive in an AMF'. I thought they couldn't, since they are not a prismatic wall spell, but a supernatural ability, however I decided to ask a third party before posting a controversial statement. A few minutes ago I got this from CustServ:
"The warding is the effect that we're concerned about. The warding ability is spell-like and can therefore be suppressed by an anti-magic field. The veils that you put on the warding just duplicate the effects of a layer of the prismatic wall spell. It does not recreate the spell itself."
So the Iot7V falls to the Lockdown too.
Yeah forgive me if I don't fall over backward with defeat on that one given custsrv rather moronic ruling on things. Ironheart surge anyone? It's an ability that emulates a prismatic wall. Prismatic walls exist fine in an AMF. By their ruling any creature who could produce a prismatic wall from an SU or SP ability would have it suppressed since they are not casting the spell itself. Not to mention they should try looking in a thesaurus some time since reproduce, replicate, and emulate are all synonyms.
Yeah forgive me if I don't fall over backward with defeat on that one given custsrv rather moronic ruling on things. Ironheart surge anyone? It's an ability that emulates a prismatic wall. Prismatic walls exist fine in an AMF. By their ruling any creature who could produce a prismatic wall from an SU or SP ability would have it suppressed since they are not casting the spell itself. Not to mention they should try looking in a thesaurus some time since reproduce, replicate, and emulate are all synonyms.
How surprising, rejecting a rule that you dislike.
Of course I would have bet you would. But CustServ ruling makes sense. Slas are not the same as spells. And the Iot7V is not creating a full prismatic wall anyway. Similar effect spells, Prismatic Spray for instance, fail in an AMF.
If you don't like the official interpretation of the rules, write them and explain your reasons. They have changed their minds once or twice.
How surprising, rejecting a rule that you dislike.
Of course I would have bet you would. But CustServ ruling makes sense. Slas are not the same as spells. And the Iot7V is not creating a full prismatic wall anyway. Similar effect spells, Prismatic Spray for instance, fail in an AMF.
If you don't like the official interpretation of the rules, write them and explain your reasons. They have changed their minds once or twice.
I'm not rejecting a ruling that I don't like, I am rejecting a ruling that makes no sense. By that ruling the prismatic wall SP ability of an epic prismatic dragon gets suppressed by an AMF because it is not the actual spell but an innate ability that duplicates the spell. Thats retarded. Their basis on language is also flawed.
The warding is the effect that we're concerned about. The warding ability is spell-like and can therefore be suppressed by an anti-magic field. The veils that you put on the warding just duplicate the effects of a layer of the prismatic wall spell. It does not recreate the spell itself.
Notice the problem there. They are saying that 2 synonyms that have the same meaning do not equal each-other.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
du·pli·cate [n., adj. doo-pli-kit, dyoo-; v. doo-pli-keyt, dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing, adjective
–noun
1. a copy exactly like an original.
2. anything corresponding in all respects to something else.
3. Cards. a duplicate game.
–verb (used with object)
4. to make an exact copy of.
5. to do or perform again; repeat: He duplicated his father's way of standing with his hands in his pockets.
6. to double; make twofold.
–verb (used without object)
7. to become duplicate.
–adjective
8. exactly like or corresponding to something else: duplicate copies of a letter.
9. consisting of or existing in two identical or corresponding parts; double.
10. Cards. noting a game in which each team plays a series of identical hands, the winner being the team making the best total score.
—Idiom
11. in duplicate, in two copies, esp. two identical copies: Please type the letter in duplicate.
[Origin: 1400–50; late ME < L duplic?tus (ptp. of duplic?re to make double), equiv. to duplic- (s. of duplex) duplex + -?tus -ate1]
—Related forms
du·pli·ca·tive, adjective
—Synonyms 1. facsimile, replica, reproduction. 4. See imitate. 9. twofold.
—Antonyms 1. original.
The personal veil grants concealment (but not full concealment, much less cover) and although it might work in an AMF, it does not shield the initiate from the AMF in any way. Moreover it is the wrong veil to use against a spiked chain wielder, since it fails to have effect against an enemy with a reach weapon.
QFT. I was wondering why he kept bringing up that a Veil stopped an AMF. If that's true, then it also stops every single spell the caster could possibly cast, including his teleports and escape spells.
===Aelryinth
So geniuses are all high wisdom low int?
So all geniuses are instant "I wins?"
Sorry, Albert Einstein was a genius. Didn't have the tactical power of nothing. A high Int does not give you an edge in combat unless you have the feats that specifically address it. It does not mean you are Batman.
===Aelryinth
Well, see. In an AMF and assuming a cleric/wizard that has not dumped dex and has 14, this means +5 to save at level 10, +7 at 15 and +8 at 20, or 5% of making it. Favored Souls would fare better, but even a +14 at level 20 means just a 25% chances of escaping.
Nope, I don't see them doing the DC 30.
DC 60 is overkill, for when you need to pin a Dex 32 rogue on crack. Or a balor.
And if we do something as simple as 5 pts of Power attack, the save DC goes up 10 points...20 points at 16+. Deft Opportunist at +4 pays for most of that, and Caster AC in an AMF is likely in the toilet.
==Aelryinth
Right. It will lock almost anything. See, in an AMF the lockdown needs to use power attack, but he can, because the AC of even the best armored divine caster is crap. However a balor (for instance) has AC 35 even in the AMF, no PA is advisable, so Overpowering Attack is needed (fortunately at level 20 it should be there). And since without the AMF the balor can just teleport away, the AMF is needed.
For a normal rogue, no AMF is needed, so the fighter has a lot of strength boosters and magical bonus to damage, and the DC of the Stand Still is going to be very, very high. AMF becomes needed only when the enemy can escape using magic easily without provoking an AoO or it is just too dangerous to be allowed to use magic.
Unless the balor has a Quickened Teleport handy, it will also trigger an AoO every time it attempts to use a Spell Like ability, such as teleport. It can't cast defensively. With Overpowering Assault up, you can beat the +40 Concentration check, which is the real danger here.
If the teleport is the real danger, then either Arcane Opportunist, which allows AoO against swift spells, or hope the casters can shut down the teleport, which is a threat to them as much or more then the fighter.
The balor isn't a threat to Lockdown. he won't spring an AMF on it. The default balor can quicken telekinesis...so what? He can't do anything to an Enlarged character of note, if he tries to escape with a spell like he eats an attack, if he tries to move by any other method he's going to get Locked. He doesn't have the tools in his arsenal to get around a lock. And Lockdown will be perfectly happy to stay in his reach and exchange melee attacks with him, especially since an OA sunder attempt will probably destory the demon's weapon with one hit.
So, balors are so not a problem if they are in reach. Also, Lockdown can fight defensively and the balor's primary attack will miss more then half the time, while he will hit every time with his primary or an AoO.
==Aelryinth
Since the enemy *has* to fail the save, I'd say that 30 isn't enough for a "not an arena vs just wizards" build.
Since there is no 100% way to make ANYONE never make a save, this is an absolutely moot point. A commoner/1 could make the save against a DC 63. All he needs to roll is that 20.
So, this is not even an argument. The idea is to make the DC so high that only a nat 20 or something close to it could possibly work.
===Aelryinth
Yeah. It's not just supposed to lockdown wizards/clerics, right? It's supposed to be useful vs everyting. Right? It's not just useful vs full casters because of an AMF, right?
You finally got something right, I just think you don't see it.
===Aelryinth
Did you even bother reading all of my post? I spacifically called out the fort save his weapon would have to make and showed that he would need to roll a 20 to pass. And it's not "working as I want it to work" it's RAW, it's how the frelling ability works as written. As for not casting spells outside of teh veil that is also incorrect. I merely can't cast spells that land in the AMF. So any spell with a short range or longer (oh I don't know gate amybe) is perfectly fine so long as I have it land outside of the AMF. The indigo veil is one-way. read the ability before posting.
It's you who are incorrect. AMF stops all line of effect that aren't specifically noted as being immune as if it were a brick wall.
And by the way, the weapon that the Veil is trying to disinigrate is inside an AMF, and so can't be disinagrated. Ooops for you. Or, it's going to NOT be in an AMF if Lockdown didn't pop one, and is going against his best save. And he only needs to hit ONCE to pop the two Veils. If you can't pop a gate on the other side of a wall, you can't do it on the other side of an AMF.
===Aelryinth
I am not quite sure whether this has been issued already, but I'll post it here anyways. Out of curiosity, how does the Lockdown react to people with Hide in plain sight? It is quite probable that the Rogue/Shadowdancer or whatever is going to have very good hide check opposing Lockdown's crossclass spot. Not that it would be very common to have such an ability, but I am just curious.
Overall, I like this build! Though the trick is simple, it can still counter so many situations, even if resorting to an item, but what would the Fighter otherwise spend his money on? After all, ale is only like one silver for a fair tankard...
With HiPS you have to rely on ready actions, just like any other character. Then, before they can Hide again, you get them in range and Lock them. Otherwise, just rely on some friendly Glitterdust from the resident wizard, or something similar. Hide in Plain Sight still requires some cover, remember, you can just do it even while being observed. Tactically, you want to lock the Hider in a position where he doesn't have cover relative to you...which, if he is attackiing you, isn't too hard.
===Aelryinth
Unless the balor has a Quickened Teleport handy, it will also trigger an AoO every time it attempts to use a Spell Like ability, such as teleport. It can't cast defensively. With Overpowering Assault up, you can beat the +40 Concentration check, which is the real danger here.
Sorry, Aelryinth, but slas are not affected by Mage Slayer and the balor Concentration skill is very good
Yeah, I know, you don't like that ruling of CustServ, but we (speaking for the community, not for individual DMs) should not ignore them.
If the teleport is the real danger, then either Arcane Opportunist, which allows AoO against swift spells, or hope the casters can shut down the teleport, which is a threat to them as much or more then the fighter.
Arcane Opportunist is the answer, but it is a feat from Dragon Magazine, so meh.
On the other hand, I am kinda glad balors are still dangerous enemies not to be easily dismissed by even optimized builds.
Really then whats this on post 485
As for being one way I yield on that one. It was my mistake. However the IotSFV can still cast buffs and teleport anywhere since the veil moves with him/her in which case it is now at range and lockdown is still in an AMF and subsequently screwed.
You can't teleport out with the AM veil up...the teleport can't reach an exterior location. It's the same way someone can't teleport INTO a prismatic sphere, regardless of whether it moves with you or not.
And as I note above, you aren't going to disinagrate any weapon thats in an AMF field.
===Aelryinth
It's you who are incorrect. AMF stops all line of effect that aren't specifically noted as being immune as if it were a brick wall.
And by the way, the weapon that the Veil is trying to disinigrate is inside an AMF, and so can't be disinagrated. Ooops for you. Or, it's going to NOT be in an AMF if Lockdown didn't pop one, and is going against his best save. And he only needs to hit ONCE to pop the two Veils. If you can't pop a gate on the other side of a wall, you can't do it on the other side of an AMF.
===Aelryinth
Try actaully catching up to the conversation before posting. It will make you seem like far less of an idiot. That topic has already been discussed. And no, the indigo veils does not stop me from flying or teleporting away since it moves with me as per the ability description. So I can teleport freely since it merely comes with me thus I never cross it. As for the violet veil disintigration, even at your best save value you are at less than 45% to make the save. There are questions to weather or not the veils even work in an AMF right now so we have to clear some things up with Custsrv.
But hey If we take arugards stance that Custsrv is an "official ruling" then Lockdown is toast anyay. With a roar of effort I end the AMF. And since they also ruled that alter self can grant templates, then my base race is lesser asimar (outsider) and I persist 4 alterselfs to gain sainted, half celestial, mineral warrior, and paragon templates.
You can't teleport out with the AM veil up...the teleport can't reach an exterior location. It's the same way someone can't teleport INTO a prismatic sphere, regardless of whether it moves with you or not.
And as I note above, you aren't going to disinagrate any weapon thats in an AMF field.
===Aelryinth
Prismatic sphere does not move thus to get into it you have to cross it. The reason you can not teleport into it is becuase spells and spell like abilitys can't cross it. But the warding moves with you thus when you teleport it comes with you and you never cross it. and even baring teleporting I can still simply fly up.
And for gods sake multi quote!
As for disintigrating, your weapon is no longer in teh AMF if it crosses the veils since the AMF stops at the veils.
Hi!
I don't know if that was already brought up (and frankly, I don't want to read through 18 pages...), but actually, the two Anti-Mage-Feats are very useful for the Psy-Warrior: They lower caster-level, not manifester-level. These are two seperate things, as far as I know - that's why you can't use Practiced Spellcaster as a Psion. That still doesn't solve the AMF-Problem, though. Perhaps somebody more experienced with optimization than I am finds a way to use the Psy-Warrior despite this drawback...
This was mentiioned before, and I am assuming magic/psionics transparency. It would be utterly unbelievable for the anti-mage feats NOT to shaft psionic ability as well, as it would be non-sensical for their effects not to work on psionic effects that duplicate magical effects (such as manifesting defensively, psionic defenses, and psionic concealment).
If your DM chooses to let you get away with it, well, more power to you. I'm going by much stricter interpretation, and magic/psionics transparency is considered standard.
And I'm pretty sure that somewhere there is a practiced manifester feat by now.
===Aelryinth
I'm not rejecting a ruling that I don't like, I am rejecting a ruling that makes no sense. By that ruling the prismatic wall SP ability of an epic prismatic dragon gets suppressed by an AMF because it is not the actual spell but an innate ability that duplicates the spell. Thats retarded. Their basis on language is also flawed.
Notice the problem there. They are saying that 2 synonyms that have the same meaning do not equal each-other.
No, you're rejecting a ruling you don't like. The spell specifically says it works in an AMF. There's nothing in the Veil warding that says so, because you are replicating layers of a Pris barriar...you are NOT recreating the entire spell. Ergo, it's pretty safe to assume that the immunity to an AMF is an effect of the ENTIRE spell, and not just a couple colors. It's also worth noting that the AMF neutralizes the WARDING ability, and once that's down, the Veils are gone. Even if the Veils were immune, they just got their foundation cut out from under them, and collapse.
So, the Veilist is no longer immune. Ah, fun.
Khan, I'd help you out with Previn, but I stopped reading his posts because of his attitude and language some time ago. He was just looking for a flame war and I decided to nip it from my end. It's very nice to see someone who 'gets' the build.
===Aelryinth
Sorry, Aelryinth, but slas are not affected by Mage Slayer and the balor Concentration skill is very good
Yeah, I know, you don't like that ruling of CustServ, but we (speaking for the community, not for individual DMs) should not ignore them.
Arcane Opportunist is the answer, but it is a feat from Dragon Magazine, so meh.
On the other hand, I am kinda glad balors are still dangerous enemies not to be easily dismissed by even optimized builds.
OIuch! ready actions against cast spell-likes then, so no OA. Still, with +40ish to hit, he can afford a few points of Power Attack (say, +4), to get the dmg at +8 and bump the Save DC up really high.
What's even more fun is if he does this, the balor loses the ability to fly, and falls to the ground. heh.
Yeah, Arcane Opportunist IS a sweet feat. Hardly overpowered, either. But, as you say, it is Dragon.
===Aelryinth
No, you're rejecting a ruling you don't like. The spell specifically says it works in an AMF. There's nothing in the Veil warding that says so, because you are replicating layers of a Pris barriar...you are NOT recreating the entire spell. Ergo, it's pretty safe to assume that the immunity to an AMF is an effect of the ENTIRE spell, and not just a couple colors. It's also worth noting that the AMF neutralizes the WARDING ability, and once that's down, the Veils are gone. Even if the Veils were immune, they just got their foundation cut out from under them, and collapse.
So, the Veilist is no longer immune. Ah, fun.
Khan, I'd help you out with Previn, but I stopped reading his posts because of his attitude and language some time ago. He was just looking for a flame war and I decided to nip it from my end. It's very nice to see someone who 'gets' the build.
===Aelryinth
Other than the fact that it states in the veils description that they duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall and yes it's in italics just like every other abiltiy that replicates a spell. meaning that the veils are mini 1-2 layer prismatic walls. And if the AMF can't get to the warding since the indigo veil is in the way blocking the effects of all spells and spell like abilitys (like the magic negations of an AMF) then the warding is safeguarded.
Try actaully catching up to the conversation before posting. It will make you seem like far less of an idiot. That topic has already been discussed. And no, the indigo veils does not stop me from flying or teleporting away since it moves with me as per the ability description. So I can teleport freely since it merely comes with me thus I never cross it. As for the violet veil disintigration, even at your best save value you are at less than 45% to make the save. There are questions to weather or not the veils even work in an AMF right now so we have to clear some things up with Custsrv.
But hey If we take arugards stance that Custsrv is an "official ruling" then Lockdown is toast anyay. With a roar of effort I end the AMF. And since they also ruled that alter self can grant templates, then my base race is lesser asimar (outsider) and I persist 4 alterselfs to gain sainted, half celestial, mineral warrior, and paragon templates.
Prismatic sphere does not move thus to get into it you have to cross it. The reason you can not teleport into it is becuase spells and spell like abilitys can't cross it. But the warding moves with you thus when you teleport it comes with you and you never cross it. and even baring teleporting I can still simply fly up.
And for gods sake multi quote!
As for disintigrating, your weapon is no longer in teh AMF if it crosses the veils since the AMF stops at the veils.
1) Once again, you are being insulting and shafting your own work.
2) Again, you are ignoring the reality of how prismatic effects work. You are INSIDE your own Veil. No one else can teleport IN there if you are blocking magic. THerefore, you can't teleport OUT, even if it moves with you. The spell is blocking line of effect.
3) The weapon is actually considered still in the AMF as long as any part of it is. There is no 'partial AMF' effect on what gets plusses and what does not. Otherwise you'd have half ogres with reach weapons +5 getting magic bonuses when striking out of an AMF. Per current rules, any shot going out of an AMF is considered null. So, your little rule doesn't work.
4) If I choose to address the posts in the order I read them in, that's my proper way of doing those things, especially since I am the most frequent contributor TO the thread, and the whole discussion is about my build, and effectively how I look at the game. So, quit trying to tell me how to post, it's just another useless way to attempt to intimidate me.
5) I do blocks because I DO reply so much. When I have multiple people attempting to do NOTHING positive for the thread, but all contributing negatively, I don't feel bad cutting corners. If you don't like it, try a positive contribution once in a while, instead of carrying a bloody axe and looking for a target with all the other complete nay-sayers who don't have anything good to help the build out with. You know, like it says on the VERY FIRST POST for the build.
I stopped reading Previn for exactly that reason. He made a great contribution by puttinig together a nice list of level appropriate gear...and then did nothing more then start attacking everything, and using rude language to do it as if looking for a flame war. Ergo, I block him. How about you get off your negative energy horse and put some positive energy in, hmm?
===Aelryinth
Other than the fact that it states in the veils description that they duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall and yes it's in italics just like every other abiltiy that replicates a spell. meaning that the veils are mini 1-2 layer prismatic walls. And if the AMF can't get to the warding since the indigo veil is in the way blocking the effects of all spells and spell like abilitys (like the magic negations of an AMF) then the warding is safeguarded.
And where does it say the AMF can't get to the warding, if the warding is part of the Veil?
Custserv obviously thinks otherwise. I'm looking at the reading and it specifically says the Veils duplicate the effects of the layers, meaning one Veil = one level. It does not say the Veils duplicate the effects of the entire prismatic Wall, else such would be mentioned in the following description of effects, as opposed to being part of the overall effect of an entire, intact PW.
Also, the Warding is completely seperate from the Veil ability, and there's nothing that says the Veils protect the Ward they are imbued into. So, you can get around any Veil by bringing down the Ward instead of the Veil itself. Sweet. That's why the AMF brings it down, or Dust of Suppression.
====Aelryinth
To that I reply, what? Are you nuts?
Casters consider AMF's a 'cheese factor,', but have NO problems whipping out scenarios where spells make situations utterly impossible for melees or skill monkeys. Time Stop, Polymorph stuff, Celerity, Perfect Contingency Wording, total access to all spells, and you are complaining about having a weapon against magic usage?
AMF's and Dust are a sane, plain response to the overwhelming power of magic. If you are NOT using these, you just don't have brains.
Every high level non-caster has to juggle the effects of spells used against him as well as the power of melee. Casters seek to utterly negate the power of melee and dominate utterly with magic. Turnaround is not only fair play, it's very logical and quite smart. A caster who has not accounted for the fact that his magic may not work all the time is as stupid as the fighter who thinks swinging a sword is the answer to every problem.
So, every high level person or community of people should use Anti-Magic not as a 'hose factor', but as a weapon with very broad application against a very large number of extremely dangerous people. The caster who is hosed as soon as he can't use magic is as dead as any other one-dimensional character. I guess he should have had more build flexibility, and more emphasis on non-magical tactics and resources.
===Aelryinth
1) Once again, you are being insulting and shafting your own work.
2) Again, you are ignoring the reality of how prismatic effects work. You are INSIDE your own Veil. No one else can teleport IN there if you are blocking magic. THerefore, you can't teleport OUT, even if it moves with you. The spell is blocking line of effect.
3) The weapon is actually considered still in the AMF as long as any part of it is. There is no 'partial AMF' effect on what gets plusses and what does not. Otherwise you'd have half ogres with reach weapons +5 getting magic bonuses when striking out of an AMF. Per current rules, any shot going out of an AMF is considered null. So, your little rule doesn't work.
4) If I choose to address the posts in the order I read them in, that's my proper way of doing those things, especially since I am the most frequent contributor TO the thread, and the whole discussion is about my build, and effectively how I look at the game. So, quit trying to tell me how to post, it's just another useless way to attempt to intimidate me.
5) I do blocks because I DO reply so much. When I have multiple people attempting to do NOTHING positive for the thread, but all contributing negatively, I don't feel bad cutting corners. If you don't like it, try a positive contribution once in a while, instead of carrying a bloody axe and looking for a target with all the other complete nay-sayers who don't have anything good to help the build out with. You know, like it says on the VERY FIRST POST for the build.
I stopped reading Previn for exactly that reason. He made a great contribution by puttinig together a nice list of level appropriate gear...and then did nothing more then start attacking everything, and using rude language to do it as if looking for a flame war. Ergo, I block him. How about you get off your negative energy horse and put some positive energy in, hmm?
===Aelryinth
We are merely pointing out the numerous flaws in your statements, and misconceptions of the build. You are the one getting defensive and abrasive which in turn makes others act likewise.
1- We point out that your budget is wrong: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
2- We pointed out that you used ancestral relic wrong: you get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
3- We point out that readying an action does not qualify you for a partial charge: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
4- We point out thicket of blades is debatable and can't be relied on till an official ruling: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
5- We point out you are using more action than you actually have: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
See a pattern here?
Also you are relying on allot of assumptions for your encounters and touting them off as certainties. Namely winning initiative in the first place, being within reasonable range etc...
As for being a fighter build, yes it's one of the better ones. Is it optimal for doing the same job? Not really in my opinion. You are using a huge amount of cash to achieve a decent setup which won't really work on allot of monsters that a party at that level will fight. Anything more than 1 opponent especially with spell casters involved will drop his potential immensely. How do yuou deal with a caster in the back casting regroup and pulling all of teh ones you have "locked down" out of your range? As for locking down a dragon, I'm sorry but not going to hapen. Hell the dragon will luagh at you if you try and pop an AMF next to him. And thats not even considering meta breath feats or breath spells like dispelling breath which will wipe away alot of your buffs and supress some of your gear abilities.
You made this to lock down the druid and it's mildly usefull outside of that purpose. But all in all battle field control is best left up to casters since they don't have to waste all of thier feats and cash to do it. Hell a duskblade casting halt with a decent int and feats/items to up the DC will stop even colossal things in thier tracs all for a 3rd level spell slot (which they have 10 of before bonus spells and rings of wizardry).
Besides if you want to use dust of negation and claim that any meleer not using it doesn't have any brain well then fine. I hit you with a bag of dust choacking and sneezing.
I'm going by much stricter interpretation, and magic/psionics transparency is considered standard.
And I'm pretty sure that somewhere there is a practiced manifester feat by now.
Well, that's my point. Even with magic/psionics-transparency, Manifesterlevel and Casterlevel are two different things. Otherwise, Practiced Spellcaster already would apply to psionics.
The question was raised in the psionics-subforum, here's the thread.
Of course, you can still go by stricter rules, but it would be you houseruling, not me. I admit, though, that the Mage Slayer Feats were probably written without considering psionics, so it would be against the spirit of the feat (but not against how it is worded). But as far as I know, the agreement on the optimization board is to go by the RAW, not by the RAI, however sound the interpretation may be. So the Psychic Warrior Lock Build could be viable.
2) Again, you are ignoring the reality of how prismatic effects work. You are INSIDE your own Veil. No one else can teleport IN there if you are blocking magic. THerefore, you can't teleport OUT, even if it moves with you. The spell is blocking line of effect.
Ouch. No, no, no ! Please read on how line of effect & Teleportation work. Teleportation doesn't need line of effect, since you're passing through the Astral Plane.
I'll note that CustServ ruled that the Personal Warding is one-way, like the prismatic sphere - I saw that in a thread here a long time ago.
I assumed the veils worked in an AMF - the new ruling is puzzling. Oh well.
It was probably already mentioned, but it'd worth adding to the 1st post : Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic) grants you an AoO vs a creature activating a Su ability. It has a weak feat as prerequisite (Supernatural Crusader).
I think my position is somewhat close to Khan's.
1) The most important thing, and the one I hope we all agree on, is that the Lock is a useful and interesting concept - whether or not other builds/classes can do the same or better. Note that I say 'concept' and not 'build'.
2) The Lock needs a party - it is not meant to face opponents by itself. But then who doesn't ? [ Arg, rhetorical question on the CO Board - that's dangerous. Let me add this then : ] Apart from a few druid/wizard/artificer/... builds.
3) The Lock has weaknesses. The worst in my eyes is probably the Will save - Mindblank is not enough despite what Aelrynth says. We go back to 2) - he needs the Cleric to cast Mass Conviction, the wizard to find and identify the spellcasters for him ("That commoner has a suspicious bunch of auras around her.").
4) The Lock is a good addition to an adventuring party. A meleer/battlefield controller is rarely a bad thing ; some are grapplers, trippers... The Lock uses Stand Still and it does it well.
5) Perhaps the most contentious point : the Lock is useful against spellcasters in interesting ways - denying them options. It doesn't mean it will single-handedly hose all casters it faces, but reach + Stand Still + Mage Slayer can help the party get an edge, and that matters.
So I would play a Lock - though not a Fighter 20 build*. I probably wouldn't use an AMF, because I dislike it and I'm pretty sure that with my bad luck I would fall into a trap or get killed not long after using it - and then I couldn't be revivified. But that's just me. :D
(The Dust is interesting but the DM I'm thinking of would never allow it.)
*The one I'm aiming for is a Warblade-based gish, but it's in a game with lots of houserules so it's irrelevant here.
In general, I'd drop Fighter levels (and Overpowering Assault), lowering the efficiency of the Stand Still in exchange for the possibility to be efficient in more diverse situations.
With HiPS you have to rely on ready actions, just like any other character. Then, before they can Hide again, you get them in range and Lock them. Otherwise, just rely on some friendly Glitterdust from the resident wizard, or something similar. Hide in Plain Sight still requires some cover, remember, you can just do it even while being observed. Tactically, you want to lock the Hider in a position where he doesn't have cover relative to you...which, if he is attackiing you, isn't too hard.
===Aelryinth
Thanks for the quick reply! That was pretty much what I thought of and should I go one on one against the Lockdown, I would probably make some sort of a spring attacking hider. Too bad the antimagic field negates shadowpouncing, too. Keep up the good work, aelryinth!
This question is open to everyone: You don't get attack of opportunities, if you are surprised, right? For example, a hiding character hitting you would not trigger Robilar's gambit?
Someone noted that Dust of Suppression could be seen as a 'cheese factor'.
To that I reply, what? Are you nuts?
Casters consider AMF's a 'cheese factor,', but have NO problems whipping out scenarios where spells make situations utterly impossible for melees or skill monkeys. Time Stop, Polymorph stuff, Celerity, Perfect Contingency Wording, total access to all spells, and you are complaining about having a weapon against magic usage?
AMF's and Dust are a sane, plain response to the overwhelming power of magic. If you are NOT using these, you just don't have brains.
Every high level non-caster has to juggle the effects of spells used against him as well as the power of melee. Casters seek to utterly negate the power of melee and dominate utterly with magic. Turnaround is not only fair play, it's very logical and quite smart. A caster who has not accounted for the fact that his magic may not work all the time is as stupid as the fighter who thinks swinging a sword is the answer to every problem.
So, every high level person or community of people should use Anti-Magic not as a 'hose factor', but as a weapon with very broad application against a very large number of extremely dangerous people. The caster who is hosed as soon as he can't use magic is as dead as any other one-dimensional character. I guess he should have had more build flexibility, and more emphasis on non-magical tactics and resources.
===Aelryinth
Show
To which I reply. No, I'm not nuts, nor am I brainless. Though I'd like to say that that does seem mildly insulting. Especially, since you put on such a big production about "blocking Previn".
Seriously though, I simply was thinking in practicality Dm's probbably won't let you get ahold of any etc... etc... whatever the fighter equipment argument isn't the fight I wanna have so whatever...
Anyway, I also brought up the dust of sneezing and choking, which other people think seem to think of as being "cheesey". Do you? Maybe cause the packets and amf act likecause its like CoP:red, your not winning cause you're incredible fighting you're winning because you've turned off the other guys power... which oddly is expected and seems acceptable from mages..
Hmph I guess your right in that respect we accept crazy broken things from wizards but not from fighters odd. Maybe it would be more pallettable if there were a fighter feat that let you do that...of course thats neither here nor there.
I like this build quite abit and once long ago when I argued the power of fighters vs casters vs "K" I posted a similar build but it charged/standstilled/karmic striked.
It got argued down quite abit. I never though to aquire a antimagic "slotless item" or torc", but when I first came to 3.5 I asked my dm about that. I was like "I wanna be a barbarian who is immune to magic like has an anti magic field and he was like "No, thats ridiculously unbalancing, but here's a mantle of spell resistance" Later though It was clear he was no optimizer either (I mean he'd do crazy unbalancing things too but you know first impressions are everything). So my question is anything shy of pun pun cheese? Though... aside from that AMF you still created a hell of a build
To which I reply. No, I'm not nuts, nor am I brainless. Though I'd like to say that that does seem mildly insulting. Especially, since you put on such a big production about "blocking Previn".
Seriously though, I simply was thinking in practicality Dm's probbably won't let you get ahold of any etc... etc... whatever the fighter equipment argument isn't the fight I wanna have so whatever...
Anyway, I also brought up the dust of sneezing and choking, which other people think seem to think of as being "cheesey". Do you? Maybe cause the packets and amf act likecause its like CoP:red, your not winning cause you're incredible fighting you're winning because you've turned off the other guys power... which oddly is expected and seems acceptable from mages..
Hmph I guess your right in that respect we accept crazy broken things from wizards but not from fighters odd. Maybe it would be more pallettable if there were a fighter feat that let you do that...of course thats neither here nor there.
I like this build quite abit and once long ago when I argued the power of fighters vs casters vs "K" I posted a similar build but it charged/standstilled/karmic striked.
It got argued down quite abit. I never though to aquire a antimagic "slotless item" or torc", but when I first came to 3.5 I asked my dm about that. I was like "I wanna be a barbarian who is immune to magic like has an anti magic field and he was like "No, thats ridiculously unbalancing, but here's a mantle of spell resistance" Later though It was clear he was no optimizer either (I mean he'd do crazy unbalancing things too but you know first impressions are everything). So my question is anything shy of pun pun cheese? Though... aside from that AMF you still created a hell of a build
This question is open to everyone: You don't get attack of opportunities, if you are surprised, right? For example, a hiding character hitting you would not trigger Robilar's gambit?
Generally you don't get to do much if you are surprised. However, Combat Reflexes allows a character to make AoOs when flat-footed.
But if the character manages to attack and remain hidden, then I think there cannot be AoOs, since cover negates AoOs.
Also... it looks like shadow jaunt and its projency are actually extraordinary abilities, by the raw, oddly. ;)
I think it has been clarified by the Sage or CustServ that all maneuvers and stances with a [type] are supernatural abilities. The shadow jaunt maneuvers are [teleportation] effects IIRC and therefore supernatural.
However, a swordsage or a warblade are indeed characters that could beat the lockdown in a 1 on 1 duel. So could, by the way, well-optimized barbarians and fighters of the same or similar levels. For instance, any optimized ubercharger should be able to take down the lockdown with a single charge (just like anything else that the charger manages to smack) assuming he can prevent a Standstill AoO. Not too hard since for humanoids it is possible to get equal or superior reach fairly easy. Or get cover through invisibility, child of shadows stance, etc.
Lockdown is hardly immortal, but it seems to be the best (of the few) anti-caster builds out there.
But if the character manages to attack and remain hidden, then I think there cannot be AoOs, since cover negates AoOs.
Hiding grant total concealment, which indeed negates AoOs but is quite different from cover.
I don't think the Sage said anything about the Shadow X teleportation line.
So all geniuses are instant "I wins?"
Sorry, Albert Einstein was a genius. Didn't have the tactical power of nothing. A high Int does not give you an edge in combat unless you have the feats that specifically address it. It does not mean you are Batman.
===Aelryinth
Albert Einstein is a civilian that never saw battle. Learning quickly still requires you to be in a situation to learn. Wizards are in fact very similar to batman.
Since there is no 100% way to make ANYONE never make a save, this is an absolutely moot point. A commoner/1 could make the save against a DC 63. All he needs to roll is that 20.
So, this is not even an argument. The idea is to make the DC so high that only a nat 20 or something close to it could possibly work.
===Aelryinth
This is such a weak argument I'm not going to bother responding to it.
You finally got something right, I just think you don't see it.
===Aelryinth
Missed the sarcasm?
We are merely pointing out the numerous flaws in your statements, and misconceptions of the build. You are the one getting defensive and abrasive which in turn makes others act likewise.
1- We point out that your budget is wrong: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
I not only corrected this, I quoted Previn and put it into the original build, because I knew I was playing somewhat loose with the numbers. So, you are ignoring the follow up.
2- We pointed out that you used ancestral relic wrong: you get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
'We' did nothing more then institute his house rule and utterly rule away all the benefit of the Ancestral Relic feat, AND ignore the wording of the feat itself. So not only was he wrong, he instituted a house rule on top of it and called it 'game rules', and you are calling ME wrong?
3- We point out that readying an action does not qualify you for a partial charge: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
And a WoTC person actually came in and said I was right...a partial charge can be readied, and you are STILL calling me wrong? Unbelievable. You really didn't read the thread, did you?
4- We point out thicket of blades is debatable and can't be relied on till an official ruling: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
I did no such thing...I posted my interpretation RIGHT UP FRONT IN THE ORIGINAL BUILD, as well as the assumptions it is based on, which are VERY conservative, especially by the way 'we' are trying to stretch the rules for your builds. And I can only assume because you don't have a cogent argument you are going after anything you possibly can.
5- We point out you are using more action than you actually have: You get defensive and claim we are attacking you.
And you either are misinterpreting how I post, or not counting the belt, or not reading correctly.
See a pattern here?
Yes, you are consistently wrong; your assumptions fly all over the place in whatever way you can do so to take an axe to the build; you don't make a positive contribution; you ignore the fact that I DO adjust the build and even CITE those responsible; you don't read the posts properly; you interpret the rules to fit anything that allows you to shaft the build; you continually approach the build with the wrong mindset and assumptions about it; etc. etc.
It's actually getting quite old.
And to top it all off, when your arguments fall down, you fall back on rude language and personal attacks rather then helpful suggestions and positive contributions.
Also you are relying on allot of assumptions for your encounters and touting them off as certainties. Namely winning initiative in the first place, being within reasonable range etc...
Every build you have posits that 'the mage' ALWAYS wins initiative. Right. THEN the mage assumes he is NEVER in reasonable range. right.
I took both those assumptions and trashed them with the build almost instantly. His initiative is high enough that unless a mage shafts himself with Initiative boosters, he is going to lose initiative often enough that Lockdown can be a threat.
Furthermore, lockdown has EXTENDED RANGE to go out and touch a mage, via Dim Door, teleport, and Haste. That range can be exceptional, and generally enough to satisfy any encounter as needed. What you saw as 'ignoring the power of the mage' I handled right up front by removing them from the equation because they are so commonly 'default arguments' for mage-lovers. They don't apply.
And if he does win initiative, then he has an excellent chance of getting off a lock. If he was an Uber Charger, he'd instead be KILLING the wizard...but no one seems to complain about that.
As for being a fighter build, yes it's one of the better ones. Is it optimal for doing the same job? Not really in my opinion. You are using a huge amount of cash to achieve a decent setup which won't really work on allot of monsters that a party at that level will fight.
I'm using the cash by level to make a monster stand still...and it will work on pretty much every monster appropriate for his level. Have you even bothered to look at how high those Reflex saves are? Once he can Assault stuff, NOTHING around him is going to move. This kind of absolutist nonsense is what REALLY annoys me more then anything.
Anything more than 1 opponent especially with spell casters involved will drop his potential immensely. How do yuou deal with a caster in the back casting regroup and pulling all of teh ones you have "locked down" out of your range?
Excuse me? I'm going for the Spellcaster first. How's he getting his spell off? Are you being tactically stupid again? If instead I somehow CANNOT reach the spellcaster, and instead I STOPPED everything from reaching the rest of my team so effectively that the main spellcaster had to waste his action getting them out of there, leaving my spellcasters freedom to then blow the now-clustered enemies to Hell and Gone (and hey, they are close together, I should be able to get them ALL in Lock range now), I count that as a WIN. You are making it sound like a BAD THING.
As for locking down a dragon, I'm sorry but not going to hapen. Hell the dragon will luagh at you if you try and pop an AMF next to him.
Uh, what? Why would I pop an AMF next to a DRagon? I'd be lucky to hit him. You are AGAIN playing the build as Tactical Stupid. And this build is about Tactical Smart, not Tactical Stupid. I'll keep all my defenses, dmg, and magic intact, especially the buffs from my casters keeping me alive.
And thats not even considering meta breath feats or breath spells like dispelling breath which will wipe away alot of your buffs and supress some of your gear abilities.
And the Dragon is going to focus on dispelling the fighter beating on him or the mage and priest practically glowing with magic? Also, the vast majority of my buffs are from items and can't be dispelled at all...a total waste of a dragon's action. Bring it on. The worst thing I'll lose is enlarge...oh noze, I have to drink another potion. Now you're playing the dragon tactically stupid.
You made this to lock down the druid and it's mildly usefull outside of that purpose. But all in all battle field control is best left up to casters since they don't have to waste all of thier feats and cash to do it. Hell a duskblade casting halt with a decent int and feats/items to up the DC will stop even colossal things in thier tracs all for a 3rd level spell slot (which they have 10 of before bonus spells and rings of wizardry).
This is an opinion statement. The fact of the matter is, I can do this all day, very effectively, and leave my casters free to do nasty things like throw High Save Dominates and Dispels and other Nasty Things that you keep wanting to target me with at the enemy. And I can do it while in an AMF, which a Duskblade can't pull off at all. In other words, I'm not vulnerable to the loss of magic like some gish. I can actually USE an AMF as a weapon in my arsenal, and it's very powerful, otherwise I wouldn't get such passionate defenses otherwise out of the mage-loving crowd.
Besides if you want to use dust of negation and claim that any meleer not using it doesn't have any brain well then fine. I hit you with a bag of dust choacking and sneezing.
Said Dust not existing in 3E, as I also noted elsewhere, and working against EVERYONE, then becomes a viable tactic for me as well. Your anathema to Suppression is because Suppression won't slow a melee build down much at all, but it will really hose a gish and other casters.
And so I really don't have a problem with it. Gishes and casters can pull off their uber combos...and I can take those combos away.
===Aelryinth
Well, that's my point. Even with magic/psionics-transparency, Manifesterlevel and Casterlevel are two different things. Otherwise, Practiced Spellcaster already would apply to psionics.
The question was raised in the psionics-subforum, here's the thread.
Of course, you can still go by stricter rules, but it would be you houseruling, not me. I admit, though, that the Mage Slayer Feats were probably written without considering psionics, so it would be against the spirit of the feat (but not against how it is worded). But as far as I know, the agreement on the optimization board is to go by the RAW, not by the RAI, however sound the interpretation may be. So the Psychic Warrior Lock Build could be viable.
Again, I'll agree with you on the possibility it does work, but I'm going to assume otherwise for balance issues. Unless there were psionic slaying equivalents, there's a really messy balance problem here, and I'd rather take a nod to DM common sense here then stir up the pot with an obvious cheese ploy. Have to admit, if a DM did let me get away with it, those last four levels being Psy War are a given. Three feats, psionic focus possibilities and powers...it's so Well, Duh, I'd just never approve it.
===Aelryinth
In other words, I'm not the one assuming all casters are Iot7FV, Archamges, Initiates of Mystra, and/or know the Invoke Magic spell. Especially considering the plethora of prestige classes and spell options available in 3.5.
Or packing Contingency/Celerity.
Or carrying a tower shield.
Or carrying smoke sticks.
Or using a reach weapon of their own.
Or have reach naturally.
Or be archery based.
Or have taken Spring Attack.
Or have taken any of a multitude of maneuvers via Martial Study.
Or be an Arcane Trickster.
Or be a Dagger Spell Mage.
Or be a Dagger Spell Shaper.
Or be an Enlightened Fist.
Or be an Wild Mage.
Or be an Fochulcan Lyrist.
You're throwing yourself on a double edged sword by ignoring all the other PrCs/items we haven't explicitly detailed listed and lumping them in with the "dies helplessly" group.
Yeah there are lots of PrCs, and a large number of them offer defenses not in pure AMF options, but in the strength of their reflex saves and that they will favor dex amoung other things. The unoptimized sample NPCs can in some cases make the save on less than a 20 even though they are significantly lower level (12th level is the lowest caster NPC I can find with a quick scan that can make the save on an 18-20). In fact they tend to have saves about equal with their level.
We're not assuming that everyone is one of a handful of builds, we're pointing out that there are numerous casters that aren't locked down. We literally don't have time to list all the things.
May I ask how many PrCs/Items/Feats/Spells/Tactics we have to list that don't die to lockdown until it's clear that 'all casters' is not only a misrepresentation, but basically a down right lie? Even saying most casters would probably be pushing it unless casters was very narrowly defined.
I am more than willing to say that Lockdown fails to do what he does against some, but not against others.
Which I've acknowledged. The problem being that it keeps getting held up as able to lock down anything. Which it very clearly isn't even remotely capable of doing.
The AMF stuff isn't really an issue for me personally because I don't believe a DM will make every caster that way.
I agree, but the main point wasn't that a DM would do this, but that it does not even remotely lockdown every caster or render them helpless. Against the very thing it was created to disprove, it not only fails to do it's job, but does it worse than the druid's companion could often manage.
Ouch. No, no, no ! Please read on how line of effect & Teleportation work. Teleportation doesn't need line of effect, since you're passing through the Astral Plane.
I'll note that CustServ ruled that the Personal Warding is one-way, like the prismatic sphere - I saw that in a thread here a long time ago.
I assumed the veils worked in an AMF - the new ruling is puzzling. Oh well.
It was probably already mentioned, but it'd worth adding to the 1st post : Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic) grants you an AoO vs a creature activating a Su ability. It has a weak feat as prerequisite (Supernatural Crusader).
I think my position is somewhat close to Khan's.
1) The most important thing, and the one I hope we all agree on, is that the Lock is a useful and interesting concept - whether or not other builds/classes can do the same or better. Note that I say 'concept' and not 'build'.
2) The Lock needs a party - it is not meant to face opponents by itself. But then who doesn't ? [ Arg, rhetorical question on the CO Board - that's dangerous. Let me add this then : ] Apart from a few druid/wizard/artificer/... builds.
3) The Lock has weaknesses. The worst in my eyes is probably the Will save - Mindblank is not enough despite what Aelrynth says. We go back to 2) - he needs the Cleric to cast Mass Conviction, the wizard to find and identify the spellcasters for him ("That commoner has a suspicious bunch of auras around her.").
4) The Lock is a good addition to an adventuring party. A meleer/battlefield controller is rarely a bad thing ; some are grapplers, trippers... The Lock uses Stand Still and it does it well.
5) Perhaps the most contentious point : the Lock is useful against spellcasters in interesting ways - denying them options. It doesn't mean it will single-handedly hose all casters it faces, but reach + Stand Still + Mage Slayer can help the party get an edge, and that matters.
So I would play a Lock - though not a Fighter 20 build*. I probably wouldn't use an AMF, because I dislike it and I'm pretty sure that with my bad luck I would fall into a trap or get killed not long after using it - and then I couldn't be revivified. But that's just me. :D
(The Dust is interesting but the DM I'm thinking of would never allow it.)
*The one I'm aiming for is a Warblade-based gish, but it's in a game with lots of houserules so it's irrelevant here.
In general, I'd drop Fighter levels (and Overpowering Assault), lowering the efficiency of the Stand Still in exchange for the possibility to be efficient in more diverse situations.
My view on the prismatic sphere defense is very simple, if you make the argument you can teleport OUT...then enemies can teleport IN. The indigo Veil stops ALL magic, and I presume that includes magic that attempts to circumvent it.
If you agree that you can teleport INTO the sphere, then suddenly the sphere isn't really a defense, because at high level it can be gotten around with incredible ease (esp by fiends and the like...ewwwww.)
My assumption is the Indigo Veil or whatever stops all magic, and that includes dimensional magic. If you can divert teleports, delay/anticpate teleports, then I think a level 8/9 spell effect can Block teleports. And the effect would thus work both ways.
I'll happily agree the argument can go both way...but realize if it does, you are leaving a huge hole in the defenses of the sphere...and I'd actually prefer NOT to do that. Teleport is cheesy enough now getting around material defenses, using it to get around the highest level magical one? Ugh.
2) You and archerpwr both cite Supernatural Opportunist...I'll stick it on the original build with a cite, just realize that that is a VERY low power feat...hardly worth a feat at all, and even fighters don't have the feats to waste on something that weak. It's just not going to come up enough to justify, and note that by the wording of the feat, it triggers an AoO...it doesn't stop the creature from actually USING it unless you kill them.
3) Permanent Prot/Evil and Mind Blank do wonders for eliminating the need for a Will Save, just like heroes feast takes care of them huge poison save fort DC's for mages. There are some Will save things which are not mind-affecting, but few...and the main thing is it totally shuts down the "I dominate the meathead" tactic that spellcasters instantly revert to when they see a melee. It also eliminates the 'Scry and die' manuver/argument. both those had to be nipped in the bud or they'd be trotted out instantly as reasons the Melee could never cut it.
Thank you for the remainder of your comments!
===Aelryinth
Thanks for the quick reply! That was pretty much what I thought of and should I go one on one against the Lockdown, I would probably make some sort of a spring attacking hider. Too bad the antimagic field negates shadowpouncing, too. Keep up the good work, aelryinth!
This question is open to everyone: You don't get attack of opportunities, if you are surprised, right? For example, a hiding character hitting you would not trigger Robilar's gambit?
Combat Reflexes allows you to take AoO while flat-footed. So yes, it would. That Sneak Attacker is going to eat an attack if the Gambit is up.
I will note that I personally wouldn't let the Gambit go up until your initiative came around, so in a suprise situation you are good.
==Aelryinth
2) You and archerpwr both cite Supernatural Opportunist...I'll stick it on the original build with a cite, just realize that that is a VERY low power feat...hardly worth a feat at all, and even fighters don't have the feats to waste on something that weak. It's just not going to come up enough to justify, and note that by the wording of the feat, it triggers an AoO...it doesn't stop the creature from actually USING it unless you kill them.
Effectively, I’ve used up every single General Feat on something absolutely irrelevant.
Fighters do in fact get enough feats. Especially with standstill. Binders are almost entirely supernaturally based and piamon could be a real threat.
3) Permanent Prot/Evil and Mind Blank do wonders for eliminating the need for a Will Save, just like heroes feast takes care of them huge poison save fort DC's for mages. There are some Will save things which are not mind-affecting, but few...and the main thing is it totally shuts down the "I dominate the meathead" tactic that spellcasters instantly revert to when they see a melee. It also eliminates the 'Scry and die' manuver/argument. both those had to be nipped in the bud or they'd be trotted out instantly as reasons the Melee could never cut it.
Thank you for the remainder of your comments!
===Aelryinth
CO "mages" tend to have decent fort saves and due to the silly number of buffs "mages" tend to have up, I doubt any "mage" is afraid of a few fort saves. Especially once this comes into play.
I would definitely like to see a bout between a Tome of Battle character and the Lockdown without any party supporting them..
Well, our 20th level swordsage will have at least a +15 to his reflex saves sans anything but a base dex of 16, and his stances and maneuvers are almost ideal for dealing with the lockdown. I'd pretty much always throw my lot in with the swordsage if I was a betting.
The crusader 20 is probably unkillable, and between stances and maneuvers stands a good chance of catching and killing lockdown anyways due to the delayed damage pool.
Warblade 20 will depend mostly on what the warblade took.
The presented NPC for Blood Storm Blade would put up a decent fight despite being 5 levels lower. Almost a toss up, but I'd give lockdown the slight edge.
The NPC for Jade Phenoix Mage has spring attack, but is only level 10. If he were higher I'd say he could drop lockdown without many issues.
The NPC Master of Nine loses because of his low level if he loses initiative. If he wins initiative, he probably becomes a lot harder to kill due to his stance. At higher levels I would place my money on him without hesitation between his stance and the fact that he's already sporting a +9 initiative mod at level 10.
The NPC Shadowsun ninja loses again because of his low level. He's sitting on a reflex save of +11 at level 8, so if it continued to advance even +1 eery 2 levels, he can probably make the saves, so at high level I'd put it at a toss up.
The PrC NPCs I didn't list even with increased level probably don't win unless certain maneuvers are picked up.
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To which I reply. No, I'm not nuts, nor am I brainless. Though I'd like to say that that does seem mildly insulting. Especially, since you put on such a big production about "blocking Previn".
Seriously though, I simply was thinking in practicality Dm's probbably won't let you get ahold of any etc... etc... whatever the fighter equipment argument isn't the fight I wanna have so whatever...
Anyway, I also brought up the dust of sneezing and choking, which other people think seem to think of as being "cheesey". Do you? Maybe cause the packets and amf act likecause its like CoP:red, your not winning cause you're incredible fighting you're winning because you've turned off the other guys power... which oddly is expected and seems acceptable from mages..
Hmph I guess your right in that respect we accept crazy broken things from wizards but not from fighters odd. Maybe it would be more pallettable if there were a fighter feat that let you do that...of course thats neither here nor there.
I like this build quite abit and once long ago when I argued the power of fighters vs casters vs "K" I posted a similar build but it charged/standstilled/karmic striked.
It got argued down quite abit. I never though to aquire a antimagic "slotless item" or torc", but when I first came to 3.5 I asked my dm about that. I was like "I wanna be a barbarian who is immune to magic like has an anti magic field and he was like "No, thats ridiculously unbalancing, but here's a mantle of spell resistance" Later though It was clear he was no optimizer either (I mean he'd do crazy unbalancing things too but you know first impressions are everything). So my question is anything shy of pun pun cheese? Though... aside from that AMF you still created a hell of a build
I would definitely like to see a bout between a Tome of Battle character and the Lockdown without any party supporting them..
Well, he's not an Optimized Arena Build...he's generic flavor. If you want to, go ahead, however! Making an opponent Stand Still is considerably less useful if it's not done for a good reason, and much less optimal. His design is stop the enemy from getting away and getting past him...actually killing an enemy fast is not the focus of the build.
===Aelryinth
I think it has been clarified by the Sage or CustServ that all maneuvers and stances with a [type] are supernatural abilities. The shadow jaunt maneuvers are [teleportation] effects IIRC and therefore supernatural.
However, a swordsage or a warblade are indeed characters that could beat the lockdown in a 1 on 1 duel. So could, by the way, well-optimized barbarians and fighters of the same or similar levels. For instance, any optimized ubercharger should be able to take down the lockdown with a single charge (just like anything else that the charger manages to smack) assuming he can prevent a Standstill AoO. Not too hard since for humanoids it is possible to get equal or superior reach fairly easy. Or get cover through invisibility, child of shadows stance, etc.
Lockdown is hardly immortal, but it seems to be the best (of the few) anti-caster builds out there.
Agreed. Main defense for Lockdown against a charger is actually the Steadfast boots, granting the ready action against the charge. If he can stop the charge, he's done his job. Otherwise, he'd conceivably go squishy just like a caster would. If he can actually ready an action, he'd just get out of the way of the charge...which Sidestep allows you to do. there's just so much 'no AoO when I move' manuvers that get around AoO builds now, you have to wonder what trumps what.
===Aelryinth
Effectively, I’ve used up every single General Feat on something absolutely irrelevant.
Wait, wait, wait....
General Feats
1- Weapon Focus
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Martial Study (Foehammer, punches DR, +2d6, Standard Action)=== Unlikely to ever be used. Should probably choose a save or boost feat.
9- Melee weapon Mastery (piercing) === slashing if Glaive.
12- Mage Slayer (No casting defensively, or Spell Likes)
15- Pierce Magical Protection (gets rid of uber buffage)
18- Robilar’s Gambit (Generates heaps of double dmg AoO’s)
Weapon Focus: Required to take the weapon Spec tree (which IS important since it increases the save DC by 6 or 12 points respectively).
Combat Reflexes: Required to get more than 1 AoO to prevent a double move out.
Martial Study: Required as pre-req for Thicket of Blades.
So at least 3 of the general feats you have to have or your build does not function as listed.
Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection are also basically required if the AMF has already been used, or can't be used due tactical consideration.
So basically 5 of the 7 general feats are must haves for the build to work as advertised. I'd probably throw in Robilar's Gambit as must have too otherwise the damage output is absurdly low at high levels.
I only see 1 feat in the general list that is irrelevant.
Albert Einstein is a civilian that never saw battle. Learning quickly still requires you to be in a situation to learn. Wizards are in fact very similar to batman.
This is such a weak argument I'm not going to bother responding to it.
Missed the sarcasm?
Wizards are in no way similar to batman. Batman is a melee/skillmonkey. Wizards are similar to Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange...all their skill points go into magical stuff. batman's goes into tactics and skill monkey stuff. Just saying because you have High Int means you are an instant tactical genius is quite dumb.
Good thing on the argument, since it was YOUR argument, after all.
I didn't miss the sarcasm, you obviously did, and the point, as well.
===Aelryinth
Wizards are in no way similar to batman. Batman is a melee/skillmonkey. Wizards are similar to Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange...all their skill points go into magical stuff. batman's goes into tactics and skill monkey stuff. Just saying because you have High Int means you are an instant tactical genius is quite dumb.
Good thing on the argument, since it was YOUR argument, after all.
I didn't miss the sarcasm, you obviously did, and the point, as well.
===Aelryinth
I searched the internet for a child saying "nuh uh!", but nothing good popped up.
It was the perfect opportunity.
Wizards are in no way similar to batman. Batman is a melee/skillmonkey. Wizards are similar to Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange...all their skill points go into magical stuff. batman's goes into tactics and skill monkey stuff. Just saying because you have High Int means you are an instant tactical genius is quite dumb.
Good thing on the argument, since it was YOUR argument, after all.
I didn't miss the sarcasm, you obviously did, and the point, as well.
===Aelryinth
"Learning quickly still requires you to be in a situation to learn."
Batman learned tactics/melee because he studied tactics. Dr. Strange Learned magic because he studied magic. Don't confuse learning different specialties with what intelligence is.
In D&D terms, both are highly intelligent, Batman because he has worked at mastering a great deal of skills, more so than most people could hope to, and Dr. Strange because he can cast spells as a wizard which requires intelligence.
The smart person will pick things up and be able to utilize them, that is the definition in intelligence: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. If Einstein had devoted his think to tactical pursuits, it stands to reason that he would have been successful at it.
Fighters do in fact get enough feats. Especially with standstill. Binders are almost entirely supernaturally based and piamon could be a real threat.
If you are in a campaign with tons of supernatural abilities, of course it's a great feat. For a general feat, it's more kind of 'meh'. That's while I'll put it in as an option for a tailored campaign.
Also, does DR count as a supernatural ability? So when the creatures uses it's DR to mitigate Dmg, does this trigger an AoO? What about Energy Drain off slam attacks? I find the definition to be, um, Iron heart Surgish.
Bleh.
CO "mages" tend to have decent fort saves and due to the silly number of buffs "mages" tend to have up, I doubt any "mage" is afraid of a few fort saves. Especially once this comes into play
Like Ruin Delver's Fortune for another save booster on demand? That's also an 8th level slot, which could be burned at any time over the course of a day. I was thinking more along the lines of those CR 10 Giant Scorpions with the insane Fort saves for poison and stuff, or the Death effects which are Fort based. Lots of CharOpt boards have 'good' fort saves based on alternate forms. Strip out the poly cheese and it's still 'weak' compared to a cleric or melee.
I could make a Diamond Mind Will Save Booster argument, but note that common argument against those...you only get one in a row before you have to refresh. Most mages are only going to have one of those Moments memorized, ditto clerics...two if they are lucky. And it doesn't come into play until level 15 at earliest. At the same level, a ToB gets the second save booster, and if he has to could refresh every round and never run out of Concentration for Saves.
Every slot a caster spends on defense is one he doesn't spend on offense, and thus takes down his utility. Spellcasters can burn through slots really fast, especially on high level spells. It's the melee job to make sure they don't have to, until the time is right...Lock 'em in place so the mage can burn off the low level stuff in safety!
=========Aelryinth
Antimagic is an absolute. Absolutes are as a rule broken. Broken is as a rule cheese. Especially when said absolute is not a class feature.
Ah, no. have you even been counting the ways people have to overcome AMF's? Not an absolute at all.
===Aelryinth
Ah, no. have you even been counting the ways people have to overcome AMF's? Not an absolute at all.
===Aelryinth
"you can't use your base class while in here"
Absolute enough. There are ways to nullify infinite damage, but that doesn't make it less cheesy.
Also, does DR count as a supernatural ability? So when the creatures uses it's DR to mitigate Dmg, does this trigger an AoO? What about Energy Drain off slam attacks? I find the definition to be, um, Iron heart Surgish.
DR x/Magic is in general SU. Most other forms are in general EX unless otherwise noted.
Like Ruin Delver's Fortune for another save booster on demand? That's also an 8th level slot, which could be burned at any time over the course of a day. I was thinking more along the lines of those CR 10 Giant Scorpions with the insane Fort saves for poison and stuff, or the Death effects which are Fort based. Lots of CharOpt boards have 'good' fort saves based on alternate forms. Strip out the poly cheese and it's still 'weak' compared to a cleric or melee.
Depends 100% on the build. Sweeping generalizations like these are where the problem lies.
I could make a Diamond Mind Will Save Booster argument, but note that common argument against those...you only get one in a row before you have to refresh. Most mages are only going to have one of those Moments memorized, ditto clerics...two if they are lucky. And it doesn't come into play until level 15 at earliest. At the same level, a ToB gets the second save booster, and if he has to could refresh every round and never run out of Concentration for Saves.
Well, there's a number of problems with this statement. The first being again the sweeping generalization, and the second assuming refreshing. I'd point out that lockdown cannot in fact refresh anything.
Every slot a caster spends on defense is one he doesn't spend on offense, and thus takes down his utility. Spellcasters can burn through slots really fast, especially on high level spells. It's the melee job to make sure they don't have to, until the time is right...Lock 'em in place so the mage can burn off the low level stuff in safety![/b]
=========Aelryinth
Oddly enough Polymorph tends to work well for offense and defense. Cat's grace helps with offense and defense. Don't even get me started on things like Shapechange, Teleport, walls....
As for how many spells a caster goes through in a day? Given the average of 4 encounters per day, a 20th level wizard could burn a spell of level 1-9 and still have spells left over at the end of the day. So could a 20th cleric or wizard. A sorcerer can handle 6 encounters per day before being low on spells.
"you can't use your base class while in here"
Absolute enough. There are ways to nullify infinite damage, but that doesn't make it less cheesy.
I telekinesis/levitate your sword wielding melee 20' in the air and leave him there. He is effectively unable to contribute. Obviously, telekinesis/levitate is broken!
I plane shift the melee to another plane. He is unable to use his class abilities to contribute. Obviously, plane shift is broken.
I encapsulate a melee character in a sealed Forcecage. He is unable to use his class abilities to do anything. Obviously, Forcecage is broken.
The lesson is the same: If the scenario could come up, be prepared to deal with it. I DID set up Lockdown to deal with a lot of it (no Teleport W/o Error yet, tho!). The fact spellcasters don't take the time to think about what would happen if their class abilities were useless, and melees do, doesn't mean the spell is broke. It means you have to think outside your comfort zone.
And yes, two of the above spells allow a save, one doesn't, and they are at varied levels. Since they target the Will save, casters assume they are going to win that little contest, and so they are all 'insta-kills' for melee. That someone could do the same to a mage is something mages have to consider as fair play.
==============
Edit: Added Supernatural Opportunist to Main Post/Build.
==Aelryinth
DR x/Magic is in general SU. Most other forms are in general EX unless otherwise noted.
Not quite:
From the latest FAQ, page 91:
DR is Ex if it is
/adamantine
/slashing, piercing or bludgeoning
/-
All the rest DRs are supernatural (and won't work in an AMF, quite important for the lockdown guy). Exception is DR/epic, which I can't find anywhere if it is Ex or Su.
Do they trigger an AoO to certain feats? My brain melts just pondering that question. No, really.
I telekinesis/levitate your sword wielding melee 20' in the air and leave him there. He is effectively unable to contribute. Obviously, telekinesis/levitate is broken!
I plane shift the melee to another plane. He is unable to use his class abilities to contribute. Obviously, plane shift is broken.
I encapsulate a melee character in a sealed Forcecage. He is unable to use his class abilities to do anything. Obviously, Forcecage is broken.
Forcecage is the key to many "I win" spell combos. It is kinda broken.
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt: +9 Armor Bonus, 6 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, 0 Armor Check Penalty (26,000 gp)
+5 Empyreal Dastanas: +1 Bonus to AC, +5 to all Saves (49,175 gp)
Masterwork Chahar-aina: +1 Bonus to AC (225 gp)
+5 Cloak of Resistance: Probably the most common high-level item. (25,000 gp)
+6 Strength Belt of Battle: +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strenth, +2 Initiative, extra actions (48,000 gp)
+1 Eager Spiked Gauntlets of +6 Dexterity: +2 Initiative, +6 Enhancement Bonus to Dexterity (44,305 gp)
+5 Animated Mithral Extreme Shield: +8 Shield Bonus to AC (50,030 gp)
+5 Ring of Deflection: +5 Deflection Bonus to AC (50,000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and Health +6: +5 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor and +6 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution (86,000 gp)
+3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit Adamantine Shadowstriking Spiked Chain (101,000 gp)
+3 Manual of Dexterity: +3 Inherent Bonus to Dexterity (82,500 gp)
+5 Manual of Strength: +5 Inherent Bonus to Strength (110,000 gp)
Winged Steadfast Boots of Springing and Striding: 1/day Fly, Ready vs. Charge, +10 Enhancement Bonus to Speed (44,350 gp)
+1 Dagger of Warning: +5 Initiative (8,302 gp)
Crystal Mask of Visual Insight: Swift Action, Ignore Concealment on 1 foe for 1 round, unlimited uses (10,000 gp)
Bracers of Opportunity: +2 Competence Bonus on Attacks of Opportunity (2,300 gp)
Greater Energy Clasp, Fire (Dastana Slot): Fire Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
Greater Energy Clasp, Cold (Chahar-aina Slot): Cold Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
Greater Energy Clasp, Acid (Extreme Shield Slot): Acid Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
In the end, this costs around 749,187 gold. That doesn't include the cost of Dust of Negation, because I'm unsure how to account for one-use items.
If I could change one thing, it would be the Manuals for Dexterity and Strength. I would replace that with the cost to pay the party wizard to cast Planar Binding twice and simply obtain a +3 bonus to Dexterity and Strength from an Efreeti. I think the cost for the both items is prohibitively high. That said, if Lockdown were a Half-Ogre, he may not need the +5 Manual of Strength. I'll have to look at ability scores with the Half-Ogre race.
Anyways, between the Empyreal Dastanas and the Cloak of Resistance, you have a +10 bonus to all saves. That could go higher with Spell-Strike Gauntlets but, as you can see, I basically ran out of cash.
Even still, with Endurance/Steadfast Determination, your Will save should be pretty high. If someone can suggest some way to free up more cash (I'd like to assume the party wizard is crafting items), there is the Greater Crystal of Mind Cloaking, the Crystal Mask of Mind Armor, and the Mind Armor armor/shield quality. All cheap ways to boost your Will save.
Between the Belt of Battle, the Eager Spiked Gauntlets, and the Dagger of Warning, you have a +9 bonus to Initiative. With Improved Initiative, that's +13. With a +7 Dexterity your Initiative Modifier is +20. The few times you fight optimized casters you may get a run for your money. The other times, you should likely go first.
Your AC is 45. Flat-footed AC is 38. Touch is 22. If the race is Half-Ogre, your AC is 48.
The Crystal Mask of Visual Insight helps to overcome foes with Concealment. As a swift action, you ignore concleament on 1 opponent for 1 round. The item has no limit on uses, so this is pretty good. I'd like an option in the case of fighting multiple opponents with concealment, but for now, this will do.
The Bracers of Opportunity grant each of your AoO's a +2 competence bonus to attacks. Getting a higher to-hit is always nice. Twice per day, it lets you make an AoO even if you've used them all up for the round. Not bad.
Assuming Half-Ogre, this is what I would do with Elite Array...
Strength 14
Dexterity 15
Constitution 13
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 10
Charisma 8
After Racial Adjustments, this becomes...
Strength 20
Dexterity 13
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 6
At level 20, with items...
Strength 31 (5 from levels, 6 from item)
Dexterity 22 (6 from item, 3 from book)
Constitution 20 (6 from item)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 6
The difference between the half-ogre and the human is the half-ogre gets fewer skill points each level (I don't think skill points are integral to the build). He also has a lower charisma (I hate dumping charisma if only because I don't like any scores below 10, but you have to do what you have to do). Otherwise, Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution end up the same, but I free up 110,000 gp because the Manual is not needed. Half-Ogre also offers large size, reach, natural armor, and darkvision.
That money can go towards a ranged weapon, some teleportation effects, and whatever we decide to do for the Dust of Negation.
I'm thinking Vanguard Treads (avoid difficult terrain), Quicksilver Boots (2/day, swift action, move up to your speed, move over liquid), and a Horn of Plenty (1/day Hero's Feast, +1 morale bonus to attacks and will saves, immunity to Fear), among other things.
A couple of questions:
1.What is Occult Opportunist? What does it do and where can I find it?
2. How does the Adaptive weapon enhancement work? Does the weapon function as a +7 weapon, or am I reading the OP incorrectly?
Also, forget about Supernatural Opportunist. If anything, grab Supernatural Instincts out of Fiendish Codex 2. It does the same thing but only requires Combat Reflexes.
]
It's not the build we're tearing down, it the tactics as presented and flawed assumption behind them.
He really hasn't. He claims "You’ve got Six Feats to play with, Five if you aren’t human." So the only one we know for sure is the able learner feat. We'll remove that and see what's left for 5 feats?
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery.
2 general feats and 3 fighter feats that he can change out without gutting the build/tactics. And if he does? -4 to hit and -6 to damage. That drops the save for standstill to an average of 33, which nominal for high levels. (see the rogue example above)
AMF is crap. The tactic is crap because it relies 100% on the AMF to do the work the first round. If ANYTHING goes wrong, the tactic is screwed and the 'lockdown' is little more then so much chum the same as all build lacking actual casting ability are.
It can't lockdown the casters without the AMF. If it doesn't get that in the start, it's not even worth discussing. All the casters have already realized this point.
Lockdown doesn't do what's it's adverted to do unless it gets luck. And then there's nothing about it that is inimical to against casters that anyone else can't get, and in many cases do better.
It's saying a lot. The whole point of AMF was the basic admission that is the casters can cast, lockdown dies. Also a key point in why it has to go first and get the casters in the AMF the first round.Well, you either assume that the majority of the NPC wizards in the gameworld have a Contingency (Celerity) spell going or you don't.If your argmeunt is "people wouldn't do that always!" Yeah, they might not, but that doesn't mean the can't do it, that it doesn't work, or that in fact it may be very common. As I pointed out many many months ago, the 'solution' is as simple as winning initiative and killing lockdown before he does anything in the first round. Is trying to go first no something everyone tried to do?
To paraphrase: "But it's not common" isn't a valid argument to wether or not something works against lockdown.
Of course it is the build you are tearing down, if the build was no good you would just go away and ignore it. A little Lock build is very good as it is but the basic build can still be easily tweaked and modified to personal taste.
Get real, you don't get to take away 5 feats from the Lock down fighter and then say it is no good, look how easy we can defeat it now (Probably want to pick the replacement feats for the PC to, maybe using Limited Wish to do a Psychic Reformation of the PC right?), the Lock down fighter PC has the option to do that for those 5 feats for something he believes will generally improve the PC. Using that kind of biased twisted logic for every feat you take away from the lock down fighter, the lockdown fighter can do the same to your build, get real.
AMF can be a great tactic for noncasters, kind of like No Save spells for casters.
I don't have a problem with wizard's having contingency celerity, my issue is the wording for the triggering, let's get the standard adventuring wording for interacting with the campaign world, since all wizard have Celerity contingency what is the general wording for triggering it? Personally I've seen way to many trigger contingencies always getting set off or being ineffective for hair triggering, but in the threads they always seems to be so well worded this is rarely an issue, but rarely do those same posters share that wording, so that it never triggers needlessly but only when conveniently needed.
People don't always do that is a very valid arguement, just as citing a possibility doesn't make it a reality either.
2. How does the Adaptive weapon enhancement work? Does the weapon function as a +7 weapon, or am I reading the OP incorrectly?
I think you are confusing Adaptive with some other enhancement
Adaptive means all the feats applicable to one weapon are also applicable to the adaptive weapon. So for instance, if your character has exotic proficiency (shurikens), focus (long sword), specialization (long sword) and improved critical (sling) and grabs an Adaptive spiked chain +1, then he fights as if he had exotic proficiency (spiked chain), focus (spiked chain), specialization (spiked chain) and improved critical (spiked chain).
I think you are confusing Adaptive with some other enhancement
Adaptive means all the feats applicable to one weapon are also applicable to the adaptive weapon. So for instance, if your character has exotic proficiency (shurikens), focus (long sword), specialization (long sword) and improved critical (sling) and grabs an Adaptive spiked chain +1, then he fights as if he had exotic proficiency (spiked chain), focus (spiked chain), specialization (spiked chain) and improved critical (spiked chain).
That much I knew, but in the OP it says that you get +1 to attack and damage, and then puts it as a +7 weapon, so I wasn't sure.
If that's all it does, I don't see why the Spiked Chain has the Adaptive quality on it. Since it can't sunder, I don't see why it's adamantine either (except I suppose to avoid getting sundered itself, but he's got a pretty high attack roll).
We're tearing at aelryinth's assumptions and the fact that it doesn't work as advertised.
You're fighting assumptions with more assumptions. It's pointless. And it will be endless if you don't simply accept that it works sometimes and not at other times.
The moment aelryinth aknowledges that lockdown could be built better in other ways I'm satisfied.
If you can figure this out yourself, I can't fathom why you would need someone else's agreement for satisfaction. Especially when (because of the insults and attitudes being slung) I doubt he'll oblige you.
Also, your view of Prsimatic Sphere is your own, but it is a houserule. Note that the wizard is free to set up a Dimensional Lock if he wants to avoid Teleportation (but I'd advise against that...). Also, the Sphere blocks line of sight for creatures outside so he can prepare nasty surprises if he wishes.
Now, the Initiate's Veil is skin-tight and because of that doesn't allow teleporting in. It doesn't hinder the Initiate's teleportation in the least.
Anti-magic is NOT cheese. Anti-magic is NOT broken. If you think it is, go back and look at all the ways people are bringing up on how to defeat it. It's not cheese...it's just hugely effective against people used to having their easy way all the while.
Would you allow an item suppressing the feats of creatures within 10' of it ? I didn't think so. (Imagine the possibilities, though ! ;) )
Of course, reasoning by analogy is iffy, but it does say something about AMF in my opinion.
@Khan : nice shoring up of the Will save ! Though the dastana + chahar-something = bleh IMHO.
Occult Opportunist is from some Dragon and allows AoOs even on swift spells I believe. Perhaps SLAs too ? I'm sure a search will turn up the relevant posts.
@archerpwr : aelrynth did say something nuanced once but he's recently gone back to (over-)strong statements. Aelrynth, I don't exactly blame you given the tone of some posts, but more nuance on both sides would be nice.
Something I forgot : Swiftblades are fairly popular Spring Attacking gishes and they have with (Ex) miss chances, and their spellcasting ability modifier as a bonus to Initiative.
If that's all it does, I don't see why the Spiked Chain has the Adaptive quality on it. Since it can't sunder, I don't see why it's adamantine either (except I suppose to avoid getting sundered itself, but he's got a pretty high attack roll).
Maybe he is talking of a Martial Discipline Weapon? They are in the ToB page 148-149.
I would use adamantine in the weapon to get through DR/adamantine, which is an Ex quality that works in AMFs. Without it damaging constructs in an AMF can be pretty difficult.
Combat Reflexes allows you to take AoO while flat-footed. So yes, it would. That Sneak Attacker is going to eat an attack if the Gambit is up.
I will note that I personally wouldn't let the Gambit go up until your initiative came around, so in a suprise situation you are good.
==Aelryinth
There's some food for thought. Someone already raised the point that the sneaker could remain hidden with -20 penalty, which is acceptable at high levels. Well, the Lockdown is not invincible, but it is not even supposed to be. Fills its niche nicely and has relatively few weaknesses and to me that is already well done. My optimization-fu demands me to give credit to this build...
I searched the internet for a child saying "nuh uh!", but nothing good popped up.
It was the perfect opportunity.
Apart from the fact that Doctor Fate and Doctor Strange would wipe their behinds with any non-epic and pretty much with every single epic wizard. Well, I suppose that was not the point, but the comic freak inside me told me to pick that minor detail up. Do continue.
That is all things considered equal, I mean equipment wise. I'm not gonna do what Khan just did (bravo by the way) and pull all the equipment out but the general idea is that a sword sage by virtue of being a dex beast typically should win init, in addition to having that + 5 inherent init bonus. So giving him the same general equipment. . .
Soaring throw and balista throw should work at breaking the lock and one of the parries (fool's strike for instance) should deny you the AoO or at least one of them.
Now according to the srd you don't add your Bab to trips its a strength or dex check. So unless I'm missing something ...
Your "TRIP MODIFIER" is about 20 points lower that what it's listed as. so since no ones mentioned it I figure maybe I missed something. So its closer to 10.
That means my Dex being what your strength is + 4 for improved trip + 4 for the manuever and maybe +4 for a sweeping weapon or alternatively "jotunbrud" but lets just say the "Swordsage Dominant" using his +8 more than you on trips wins consistently chunks you
Lockdown: "Hey you stay there"
"Random Swordsage Dominant": "B!$&# get off me!"
Further these throws land you further than you could other wise move especially if this swordsage readies a swift action to teleport away or still has a move swift teleporting in.
Now thats like 3 minutes of thought. I point this out because I really love the throws, plus I had the "Trip vs stand still argument many times" (as my brother loves sticky knights) Any one of the adepts could have similar tricks but almost all the sword sages will.
....
....
On cheese.
Show
He could then throw a bag of sneezing and choking at you. Followed by mountain tombstone strike. or some such nonsense While you're stunned.
It'd be cool to see some embarrasing a Warblade, who uses the pinnacle of his abilities to defeat his opponent, who calmly answers with the same amount of attacks without straining too much.
Just a hilarious thought, but wouldn't the Lockdown get double the normal amount of AoOs, if someone used Time stand stills on him as the martial adept would be doing double the normal alotment of attacks?
It'd be cool to see some embarrasing a Warblade, who uses the pinnacle of his abilities to defeat his opponent, who calmly answers with the same amount of attacks without straining too much.
Yes, lockdown would hand the warblade that winds up a timestands still combat rythm his ass on a silver platter. One of the weaknesses of the awesome combos warblades have. In fact, snow's tripper would likely do the same thing even better due to the higher dex emphasis.
OTOH, a swiftblade by virtue of the prestige class abilities alone would just kick lockdown's ass. Spring attack as a bonus feat and (Ex) abilities with huge init bonus. Lockdown can take down some, but not all. That's my only point. It's not quite a lockdown, so much as a mageslayer with an AMF and standstill-dowm.
Edit: wouldn't lockdown run out of AoOs before the first full attack is done though?
Aelryinth: I was asking (generically to anyone actually not just to you) would a swordsage wreck him by batting "lockdown" across the way and flinging him down the hall kinda with those trip manuevers? I figure and unoptimized swordsage might be using them...so they'd be pretty dang common.
That is all things considered equal, I mean equipment wise. I'm not gonna do what Khan just did (bravo by the way) and pull all the equipment out but the general idea is that a sword sage by virtue of being a dex beast typically should win init, in addition to having that + 5 inherent init bonus. So giving him the same general equipment. . .
Soaring throw and balista throw should work at breaking the lock and one of the parries (fool's strike for instance) should deny you the AoO or at least one of them.
Now according to the srd you don't add your Bab to trips its a strength or dex check. So unless I'm missing something ...
Your "TRIP MODIFIER" is about 20 points lower that what it's listed as. so since no ones mentioned it I figure maybe I missed something. So its closer to 10.
That means my Dex being what your strength is + 4 for improved trip + 4 for the manuever and maybe +4 for a sweeping weapon or alternatively "jotunbrud" but lets just say the "Swordsage Dominant" using his +8 more than you on trips wins consistently chunks you
Lockdown: "Hey you stay there"
"Random Swordsage Dominant": "B!$&# get off me!"
Further these throws land you further than you could other wise move especially if this swordsage readies a swift action to teleport away or still has a move swift teleporting in.
Now thats like 3 minutes of thought. I point this out because I really love the throws, plus I had the "Trip vs stand still argument many times" (as my brother loves sticky knights) Any one of the adepts could have similar tricks but almost all the sword sages will.
....
....
On cheese.ShowHe could then throw a bag of sneezing and choking at you. Followed by mountain tombstone strike. or some such nonsense While you're stunned.
Yes, lockdown would hand the warblade that winds up a timestands still combat rythm his ass on a silver platter. One of the weaknesses of the awesome combos warblades have. In fact, snow's tripper would likely do the same thing even better due to the higher dex emphasis.
OTOH, a swiftblade by virtue of the prestige class abilities alone would just kick lockdown's ass. Spring attack as a bonus feat and (Ex) abilities with huge init bonus. Lockdown can take down some, but not all. That's my only point. It's not quite a lockdown, so much as a mageslayer with an AMF and standstill-dowm.
Edit: wouldn't lockdown run out of AoOs before the first full attack is done though?
My answer to that would be, after 5 hits for 60 dmg a pop with OA up, would it matter? After 7 hits at 30ish a pop (assuming he doesn't have OA up) would it matter?
Ready actions against Spring Attack could still lock the Swiftblade in place. Also, Spring Attackers have to move at least 10' to use their SA. All I have to do is stay 10' away, and he's never going to be able to use the manuver! (he can't even 5' step to get to me, after all!) tactics, think tactics. It also doesn't obviate the fact I have Robilar's up, with OA powering it on the first round. He can spring attack me all day, and I'm going to hit him MUCH harder then he is going to hit me.
===Aelryinth
There's some food for thought. Someone already raised the point that the sneaker could remain hidden with -20 penalty, which is acceptable at high levels. Well, the Lockdown is not invincible, but it is not even supposed to be. Fills its niche nicely and has relatively few weaknesses and to me that is already well done. My optimization-fu demands me to give credit to this build...
He could only remain hidden if he's still in cover. If he moves out of cover, he's hosed. The -20 basically applies to missile guys.
===Aelryinth
I did not say I advised to take Supernatural Opportunist, but that it needed to be mentioned as an option. Thanks for taking that into account.
Also, your view of Prsimatic Sphere is your own, but it is a houserule. Note that the wizard is free to set up a Dimensional Lock if he wants to avoid Teleportation (but I'd advise against that...). Also, the Sphere blocks line of sight for creatures outside so he can prepare nasty surprises if he wishes.
Now, the Initiate's Veil is skin-tight and because of that doesn't allow teleporting in. It doesn't hinder the Initiate's teleportation in the least.
Would you allow an item suppressing the feats of creatures within 10' of it ? I didn't think so. (Imagine the possibilities, though ! ;) )
Of course, reasoning by analogy is iffy, but it does say something about AMF in my opinion.
@Khan : nice shoring up of the Will save ! Though the dastana + chahar-something = bleh IMHO.
Occult Opportunist is from some Dragon and allows AoOs even on swift spells I believe. Perhaps SLAs too ? I'm sure a search will turn up the relevant posts.Adaptive is from ToB and allows you to use your WF/WS/GWF/... feats as if they were keyed off the weapon, IIRC. Drop it.That's Aptitude.
@archerpwr : aelrynth did say something nuanced once but he's recently gone back to (over-)strong statements. Aelrynth, I don't exactly blame you given the tone of some posts, but more nuance on both sides would be nice.
Something I forgot : Swiftblades are fairly popular Spring Attacking gishes and they have with (Ex) miss chances, and their spellcasting ability modifier as a bonus to Initiative.
Suppressing feats isn't going after the fighter's class abilities. feats are integral to all creatures, magic is not. Suppressing feats would be more analogous to suppressing character wealth, or hit die, or advanced ability scores.
===Aelryinth
Being tripped doesn't prevent you from attacking, nor does it prevent him from using Robilar's in response to being tripped, nor the huge damage of an Overwhelming Assault. The Swordsage would unleash his trips, but unless he can stay out of Lockdown's reach while doing so, he'll kill himself. -4 th while tripped? Deft opportunist takes care of it all by itself. Lockdown can kill him while laying flat on his back. Plus make the Tumble check to instant stand without an AoO.
Note that ready actions to put the Swordsage in place would probably shut down a good chunk of this activity, too. I think Steadfast boots also give a bonus vs. trip, and that could be easily increased further with more magic. It's hard to make a trip build work at higher levels.
Where are we getting extra actions to ready? Steadfast boots are an item, which cannot be assured in play.
note that you being a 'dex beast' is probably going to net you only +2 or so more init then Lockdown, maybe +3. That's you having +6 more Dex...not a huge difference.
Dex +5 more from levels and +1-2 more from the tome. I think swordsages also get +3 to init from the class. That's +8 higher init.
These are the kinds of wild generalizations and assumptions we have problems with.
Keep in mind that I changed the default weapon in the example from a spiked chain to a glaive, so I could sunder. Instead of Exotic Weapon, use Short haft. That way I could also set it against a charge for double dmg.
Short haft requires a swift action. You're dreadfully short on actions.
Adaptive is from ToB. All weapon-specific feats you have apply to the weapon, AND if you have skill in the weapon you also get +1/+1. It's a +7 weapon costing 99k. It's actual bonuses are +7th, +4 dmg, with DR punching ability. It's adamantine to resist being sundered and to chop through stuff, and/or to smack around DR/adamantine. If I could afford a +10 weapon, it'd be a +5 Adaptive Shadowstriking Devoted Spirit weapon, with +1 left over. +9/+6, baby!
If I have the Trip modifier on my part wrong, nice catch. I'll have to look at it. Note that it's not a Tripping build, however!
Tripping is useful for limiting mobility. A high trip check would be good
I see the quote from Previn about how lame the build is if you take away the Weapon Spec tree. This kind of stuff is REALLY funny. So many char opt guys consider the Tree to be not worth taking (which is why I picked it as my elective set!), and here Previn is railing about how getting rid of it truly shafts the character, and then doesn't bother to replace it with whatever 5 feats the person who IS replacing it thinks is worthwhile...one of which is probably Power Attack to set the save DC to basically whatever he likes to.
Heh. See, that's why I don't read Previn's posts anymore.
------------------------------------------------------
==Aelryinth
What I'd like to see is what the build would be like fully optimized. Not burning feats. I refuse to call any build that knowingly takes the full wpn focus chain when there are other feats needed optimized for anything.
My answer to that would be, after 5 hits for 60 dmg a pop with OA up, would it matter? After 7 hits at 30ish a pop (assuming he doesn't have OA up) would it matter?
Ready actions against Spring Attack could still lock the Swiftblade in place. Also, Spring Attackers have to move at least 10' to use their SA. All I have to do is stay 10' away, and he's never going to be able to use the manuver! (he can't even 5' step to get to me, after all!) tactics, think tactics. It also doesn't obviate the fact I have Robilar's up, with OA powering it on the first round. He can spring attack me all day, and I'm going to hit him MUCH harder then he is going to hit me.
===Aelryinth
Where are the extra actions to ready stuff coming from? The warblade I agree with. Lockdown is aimed right at that heel. How are you locking a swiftblade? You have minimum a 50% miss chance. He gets an extra standard/move action per round. Swiftblades are also gishes, so if you just want to stay exactly 10 feet away the swiftblade can open up a can of polymorph + arcane strike on your ass from outside the AMF. A swiftblade can stand in place and typically does. Between minor shapeshift and your 3 AoOs the swiftblade will just eat the damage.
Here is a first draft of an updated item list. For the most part, it is the same. I avoided a couple of things and added some new ones. Any suggestions are of course welcome. Aelryinth, I know you were trying to be conservative with the build, but I'm going to pull from wherever I can to see where this goes.
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt: +9 Armor Bonus, 6 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, 0 Armor Check Penalty (26,000 gp)
+5 Empyreal Dastanas: +1 Bonus to AC, +5 to all Saves (49,175 gp)
Dastanas basically grant a shield bonus to AC, no? I think you have to make these bracers.
Masterwork Chahar-aina: +1 Bonus to AC (225 gp)
I'm actually not sure what this is.
+5 Cloak of Resistance: Probably the most common high-level item. (25,000 gp)
+6 Strength Belt of Battle: +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strenth, +2 Initiative, extra actions (48,000 gp)
+1 Eager Spiked Gauntlets of +6 Dexterity: +2 Initiative, +6 Enhancement Bonus to Dexterity (44,305 gp)
+5 Animated Mithral Extreme Shield: +8 Shield Bonus to AC (50,030 gp)
+5 Ring of Deflection: +5 Deflection Bonus to AC (50,000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 and Health +6: +5 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor and +6 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution (86,000 gp)
+3 Adaptive Devoted Spirit Adamantine Shadowstriking Spiked Chain (101,000 gp)
+3 Manual of Dexterity: +3 Inherent Bonus to Dexterity (82,500 gp)
+5 Manual of Strength: +5 Inherent Bonus to Strength (110,000 gp)
Winged Steadfast Boots of Springing and Striding: 1/day Fly, Ready vs. Charge, +10 Enhancement Bonus to Speed (44,350 gp)
Steadfast boots also give a bonus against trip, bull rush and overrun, don't they?
+1 Dagger of Warning: +5 Initiative (8,302 gp)
I believe this needs to be wielded to take effect. You'd have to change this to +1 Armor Spikes of Warning...or add it to the gauntlets.
Crystal Mask of Visual Insight: Swift Action, Ignore Concealment on 1 foe for 1 round, unlimited uses (10,000 gp)
Det Invis is nice, but still not as good as true sight (think illusions, ethereal)
Bracers of Opportunity: +2 Competence Bonus on Attacks of Opportunity (2,300 gp)
Aren't the Dastana occupying this slot? (Not sure)
Greater Energy Clasp, Fire (Dastana Slot): Fire Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
Greater Energy Clasp, Cold (Chahar-aina Slot): Cold Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
Greater Energy Clasp, Acid (Extreme Shield Slot): Acid Resistance 15, max 75 damage per day (3,000 gp)
I'm not sure you can apply all of these, especially on the Animated Shield. Also, didn't they errata the Animated enchantment to +3 or 4?
In the end, this costs around 749,187 gold. That doesn't include the cost of Dust of Negation, because I'm unsure how to account for one-use items.
The major weaknesses I note are lack of teleporting ability. It's too neccessary an ability at high level to have without having some recourse to it. That's why I have blinking and would prefer boots of teleporting on the main build. You also have no scrying defense (the Mind Blank device.)...nor the ability to stick up the AMF. If those aren't important to your build, that's fine by me!
If I could change one thing, it would be the Manuals for Dexterity and Strength. I would replace that with the cost to pay the party wizard to cast Planar Binding twice and simply obtain a +3 bonus to Dexterity and Strength from an Efreeti. I think the cost for the both items is prohibitively high. That said, if Lockdown were a Half-Ogre, he may not need the +5 Manual of Strength. I'll have to look at ability scores with the Half-Ogre race.
Anyways, between the Empyreal Dastanas and the Cloak of Resistance, you have a +10 bonus to all saves. That could go higher with Spell-Strike Gauntlets but, as you can see, I basically ran out of cash.
Even still, with Endurance/Steadfast Determination, your Will save should be pretty high. If someone can suggest some way to free up more cash (I'd like to assume the party wizard is crafting items), there is the Greater Crystal of Mind Cloaking, the Crystal Mask of Mind Armor, and the Mind Armor armor/shield quality. All cheap ways to boost your Will save.
Between the Belt of Battle, the Eager Spiked Gauntlets, and the Dagger of Warning, you have a +9 bonus to Initiative. With Improved Initiative, that's +13. With a +7 Dexterity your Initiative Modifier is +20. The few times you fight optimized casters you may get a run for your money. The other times, you should likely go first.
Your AC is 45. Flat-footed AC is 38. Touch is 22. If the race is Half-Ogre, your AC is 48.
The Crystal Mask of Visual Insight helps to overcome foes with Concealment. As a swift action, you ignore concleament on 1 opponent for 1 round. The item has no limit on uses, so this is pretty good. I'd like an option in the case of fighting multiple opponents with concealment, but for now, this will do.
The Bracers of Opportunity grant each of your AoO's a +2 competence bonus to attacks. Getting a higher to-hit is always nice. Twice per day, it lets you make an AoO even if you've used them all up for the round. Not bad.
Assuming Half-Ogre, this is what I would do with Elite Array...
Strength 14
Dexterity 15
Constitution 13
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 10
Charisma 8
After Racial Adjustments, this becomes...
Strength 20
Dexterity 13
Constitution 14
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 6
At level 20, with items...
Strength 31 (5 from levels, 6 from item)
Dexterity 22 (6 from item, 3 from book)
Constitution 20 (6 from item)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 10
Charisma 6
The difference between the half-ogre and the human is the half-ogre gets fewer skill points each level (I don't think skill points are integral to the build). He also has a lower charisma (I hate dumping charisma if only because I don't like any scores below 10, but you have to do what you have to do). Otherwise, Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution end up the same, but I free up 110,000 gp because the Manual is not needed. Half-Ogre also offers large size, reach, natural armor, and darkvision.
That money can go towards a ranged weapon, some teleportation effects, and whatever we decide to do for the Dust of Negation.
I'm thinking Vanguard Treads (avoid difficult terrain), Quicksilver Boots (2/day, swift action, move up to your speed, move over liquid), and a Horn of Plenty (1/day Hero's Feast, +1 morale bonus to attacks and will saves, immunity to Fear), among other things.
A couple of questions:
1.What is Occult Opportunist? What does it do and where can I find it?
Dragon magazine, someone posted it in an earlier thread. http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Occult_Opportunist,
gets you there. Some cross-class skill ranks required for use...hard to do with a half-ogre, although if you have mage slayer, you are most of the way there.
2. How does the Adaptive weapon enhancement work? Does the weapon function as a +7 weapon, or am I reading the OP incorrectly?
It's a +7 weapon by cost. When being used by Lockdown, the bonuses are +7/+4 th/dmg. You can improve it to +5, netting you +9/+6. Adaptive is essentially a 'free' upgrade, and it means any fighter picking up your weapon could potentially be quite good with it, if need be.
Also, forget about Supernatural Opportunist. If anything, grab Supernatural Instincts out of Fiendish Codex 2. It does the same thing but only requires Combat Reflexes.
Hah, they make up a feat, then a more logical version of it. Should have made a note that it replaced the prior version.
This is a nice way to take the build and twist it into a personal direction. I'm surprised you didn't mess some with the feat choices, but there's still time.
Note you've got some skill points to spend on Mage Slayer and PMP and stuff.
===Aelryinth
"Nice Catch" -Aelryinth
Thanks!
Okay.
After reading your post I'm wondering if you might be unfamiliar with the throws I'm talking about. Balista throw and soaring throw use an opposed trip check yes, but, the important part is that they cause you to land up to 60ft away.
I realized that being prone doesn't stop someone from attacking, being 60ft away and prone should stop Lockdown though.
Now on the subject of steadfast boots, large size and initiative items.
Now I prefaced this by saying all things considered equal. So while I dont' have the time or effort to go through picking all the gear for this guy I'm assuming he's equipped similarly to Lockdown. So if you have steadfast boots
Steadfast Boots (MiC, 1400 gp) +4 bonus to avoid bull rush, trip, or overrun attacks. Any two-handed weapon you carry is treated as if readied against any creature that charges you.
This his weapon has the sweeping enchanment as I mentioned in the intial post.
Now if you're making him an half-ogre too well Honestly there's always jotunbrud (again as I mentioned in the first post)
Basically "Swordsage Dominant" trips are always +8 more than your ability to resist. Especially if we bring the antimagic into play since none of these manuevers I'm mentioning is supernatural.
Now about the intiative.
I believe You're mistaken about that as well, as long as we have the same or similar bonuses to intiative through items. Lockdown loses initiative by the numbers because the Swordsage class give you a +5 inherent bonus to initiative! further the SS has dex in all the places you have strength. So in addition to the +5 he's got the 3-5 more points more speed. So thats a +10init over your base init. (whatever that might be).
Personally, I don't wanna even play the eqipment game cause there's an equality there... its just worthless escalation. I prefer to talk about the build itself but since you clearly aren't going to agree to that then I declare having "bascially" the same items. Nor do I wish to optimize race for the simple idea of bigger is better but... More on balance in a sec.
There's also the mention of holding an action to teleport. Really the Sages don't need to hold an action to deal with counter strikes they're faster than you so the first round you're flat footed. No AoO's to worry about.
However, they don't need to hold actions because they have a ginormous about of counters sitting in they're arsenal Overwhelming attack will fail to hit because of this.
Mostly because in D&D Dex is does more than strength and where you have Str I have dex (adding to the Ac), where lockdown has wisdom Swordsage dominant has wisdom ((adding to his ac) and again counters) its seems like a pretty clear loss to me.
(Which you know thats not saying a whole lot I mean to say I figure its already know that the TOB build own fighters... and thats cool thats 3 classes out of 20 whatever.)
In any case, On balance, I'd been wondering why it is I personally have such a lack of respect for antimagic field and for that matter Dust of negation and sneezing and choking.
Its because I honestly feel that they win pretty much obliviously to what you've built. I respect the mage slayer feats but I dare argue that ANY WARRIOR CLASS BONES A CASTER IN AN AMF except for those classes that ignore antimagic and those are a few out of many according to Khan the Destoyer.
I note also that you didnt' even respond to having dust thrown on you. Why? Because its an "I win the game" item. . . and anyone could use that. You have this great build that I'm all for but some of these arguments and basis for arguments used by many in this thread are great detractors to the build. Its not touted as an "Ultimate" build so i don't why some of the other posters are coming at you like they do but you don't seem anyless irritated by even the honest critics of the build. I think that there's no way to seal all the wholes up,on the fighter class, not even here at the end of D&D 3.5, not even in an antimagic field...
"Nice Catch" -Aelryinth
Thanks!
Okay.
After reading your post I'm wondering if you might be unfamiliar with the throws I'm talking about. Balista throw and soaring throw use an opposed trip check yes, but, the important part is that they cause you to land up to 60ft away.
I realized that being prone doesn't stop someone from attacking, being 60ft away and prone should stop Lockdown though.
Now on the subject of steadfast boots, large size and initiative items.
Now I prefaced this by saying all things considered equal. So while I dont' have the time or effort to go through picking all the gear for this guy I'm assuming he's equipped similarly to Lockdown. So if you have steadfast boots
Steadfast Boots (MiC, 1400 gp) +4 bonus to avoid bull rush, trip, or overrun attacks. Any two-handed weapon you carry is treated as if readied against any creature that charges you.
This his weapon has the sweeping enchanment as I mentioned in the intial post.
Now if you're making him an half-ogre too well Honestly there's always jotunbrud (again as I mentioned in the first post)
Basically "Swordsage Dominant" trips are always +8 more than your ability to resist. Especially if we bring the antimagic into play since none of these manuevers I'm mentioning is supernatural.
Now about the intiative.
I believe You're mistaken about that as well, as long as we have the same or similar bonuses to intiative through items. Lockdown loses initiative by the numbers because the Swordsage class give you a +5 inherent bonus to initiative! further the SS has dex in all the places you have strength. So in addition to the +5 he's got the 3-5 more points more speed. So thats a +10init over your base init. (whatever that might be).
Personally, I don't wanna even play the eqipment game cause there's an equality there... its just worthless escalation. I prefer to talk about the build itself but since you clearly aren't going to agree to that then I declare having "bascially" the same items. Nor do I wish to optimize race for the simple idea of bigger is better but... More on balance in a sec.
There's also the mention of holding an action to teleport. Really the Sages don't need to hold an action to deal with counter strikes they're faster than you so the first round you're flat footed. No AoO's to worry about.
However, they don't need to hold actions because they have a ginormous about of counters sitting in they're arsenal Overwhelming attack will fail to hit because of this.
Mostly because in D&D Dex is does more than strength and where you have Str I have dex (adding to the Ac), where lockdown has wisdom Swordsage dominant has wisdom ((adding to his ac) and again counters) its seems like a pretty clear loss to me.
(Which you know thats not saying a whole lot I mean to say I figure its already know that the TOB build own fighters... and thats cool thats 3 classes out of 20 whatever.)
In any case, On balance, I'd been wondering why it is I personally have such a lack of respect for antimagic field and for that matter Dust of negation and sneezing and choking.
Its because I honestly feel that they win pretty much obliviously to what you've built. I respect the mage slayer feats but I dare argue that ANY WARRIOR CLASS BONES A CASTER IN AN AMF except for those classes that ignore antimagic and those are a few out of many according to Khan the Destoyer.
I note also that you didnt' even respond to having dust thrown on you. Why? Because its an "I win the game" item. . . and anyone could use that. You have this great build that I'm all for but some of these arguments and basis for arguments used by many in this thread are great detractors to the build. Its not touted as an "Ultimate" build so i don't why some of the other posters are coming at you like they do but you don't seem anyless irritated by even the honest critics of the build. I think that there's no way to seal all the wholes up,on the fighter class, not even here at the end of D&D 3.5, not even in an antimagic field...
I see the quote from Previn about how lame the build is if you take away the Weapon Spec tree. This kind of stuff is REALLY funny. So many char opt guys consider the Tree to be not worth taking (which is why I picked it as my elective set!), and here Previn is railing about how getting rid of it truly shafts the character, and then doesn't bother to replace it with whatever 5 feats the person who IS replacing it thinks is worthwhile...one of which is probably Power Attack to set the save DC to basically whatever he likes to.
Heh. See, that's why I don't read Previn's posts anymore.
------------------------------------------------------
==Aelryinth
I rarely get to the point of calling people stupid, but Aelryinth is certainly on my list of not smart people right now. I said:
He really hasn't. He claims "You’ve got Six Feats to play with, Five if you aren’t human." So the only one we know for sure is the able learner feat. We'll remove that and see what's left for 5 feats?
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery.
2 general feats and 3 fighter feats that he can change out without gutting the build/tactics. And if he does? -4 to hit and -6 to damage. That drops the save for standstill to an average of 33, which nominal for high levels. (see the rogue example above)
I never said the build was lame without the weapon spec tree or anything remotely like that. What I said was that the only feats you can swap out without ruining the tactics was the weapon spec tree, which still weakens the build. At no point do I get even remotely close to saying it "shafts" the build.
The specific point was his claim over the feats he could switch out, which culminated in a later post of mine: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14315710&postcount=569) In which I further disproved his statement of "Effectively, I’ve used up every single General Feat on something absolutely irrelevant."
Basically as usual Aelryinth finds it easier to see and read what he wants rather than what is actually there, and ignore those who refuse to agree with him. [sarcasim]And yeah, Ancetral Relic is infinite wealth for anyone Aelryinth.[/sarcasim]
However, they don't need to hold actions because they have a ginormous about of counters sitting in they're arsenal Overwhelming attack will fail to hit because of this.
I think you are severely underestimating the chances to hit of the lockdown. True, swordsages can get prodigious AC at very high level, but outside the AMF the lockdown has around +40 to hit and +46 with AoOs, and can take a 10 when he attacks. I doubt the swordsage can get to AC 50. For that matter I can't see him beating that kind of roll to execute a Fool's Strike or similar counters. His bab is 5 points less and he can't take weapon mastery and greater focus.
Ballista Throw is nifty, but tossing the lockdown 60' is not enough. He stands up instantly with a skill trick and charges 80' when hasted, so the swordsage would cause 6d6 (average 21 hp) and then receive a full charge from a a primary meleer. Not a good exchange for a guy with d8 dice as hp and medium bab. If he was in an AMF, he can run to the swordsage and floor him, preventing him from using spring attack or a stance that gives cover (those are supernatural).
So... maybe a swordsage can be built able to take down lockdown, but I don't think it is going to be particularly easy. A barbarian, fighter or warblade optimized for hitting very hard (and with Robilar's Gambit, too) seem better choices.
1. If Lockdown were to be flat-footed against the Swordsage, he can still make AoO's. This is one of the benefits of Combat Reflexes.
2. The Sweeping enhancement appears in Magic Item Compendium and now adds only a +2 bonus to Trips instead of a +4.
Aside from that, I think some of your concerns are valid. Lockdown not only has to focus on getting the lock down, but on stopping his enemy from hindering his ability to start it or maintain it. Battlefield control is one way they can do that.
I'm going to fiddle around with the feats, and I still need to complete the item list. But obviously these vulnerabilities need to be dealt with. Lockdown is meant to stop enemies from getting to his party members. But if someone bull rushes you out of the way for someone else to get by, you've failed at your goal. Likewise, getting tripped and tossed 60' (as in the case of Ballista Throw) puts a serious kink in the lockdown.
Luckily, there are ways to resist these manuevers, with feats like Shield Ward or Combat Stability and items like the Anchoring special ability or the Steadfast Boots (which Lockdown already has).
After I go over item and feat potentials I'll have to decide which will be the best choices.
But it is not always true that the Swordsage will always have a +8 advantage over Lockdown. It is much easier to boost your ability to resist a trip than to boost the actual Trip attempt check. Even with equal items, the swordsage will not benefit from a Greater Anchoring item when trying to trip Lockdown (as an example).
Likewise, Jotunbrud is not equal to actually being large. While you will match Lockdown's +4 to trip resists with your own +4 to trip, you will not match his 20' reach. He may stop you before you even reach him to attempt Ballista Throw. (I realize this is all speculation, but I want to be sure that we understand everything is not so cut and dry here. The swordsage will have a better initiative modifier with all items equal, and his trip can put Lockdown in a bad spot, but his trip is not guaranteed to hit and he may need to teleport to Lockdown to even attempt an attack in the first place.)
That said, suppose we do indeed throw Lockdown 60'. One of the luxuries of the build is that the AoO's fuel Standstill. He can literally spend his entire full round action getting back to the swordsage. This will allow him to attempt a lockdown when the swordsage acts on his turn.
edit: the point is not that the Swordsage kills the Lock - it is rarely their emphasis. But the Swordsage can bypass the Lock easily, and sometimes break it (freeing its caster friend, for instance).
Then again, a Warblade or Crusader with Covering Strike shuts him down too, but not all of them take it. War Master's Charge and White Raven Hammer also prevent locking/AO-ing for 1 round.
Aelrynth, I don't think you need to defend the strength of the Lock against martial artists - it wasn't meant against them in the first place. He can still contribute but it's dependent on the opponent's tactics.
The Lock is indeed good against Time Stand Still (like all Robilar builds), not so much against the Meditant using Greater Insightful Strike as a touch attack for instance.
Btw, I would drop Aptitude from the weapon and add Ghost Ward (MIC) to the breastplate (+5 to Touch AC helps quite a bit) ; perhaps also to the shield. I suppose Khan is relying on the party for Minblank, which makes sense - it will be harder to dispel.
Yes, I think Swordsages are among the worst opponents for a Lock.
edit: the point is not that the Swordsage kills the Lock - it is rarely their emphasis. But the Swordsage can bypass the Lock easily, and sometimes break it (freeing its caster friend, for instance).
Well, it really depends (I guess, as much as everything else does
). With trips, you can optimize your opposed check. But the real point is if Lockdown is fighting enemies with reach and large size. Otherwise, he outreaches them.The swordsage would have to rely on some sort of teleportation effect, or make the save against Standstill.
Then again, a Warblade or Crusader with Covering Strike shuts him down too, but not all of them take it.
True. But again, this hopes for a 20' reach. Anything less and he has a chance to stop them from hitting him with Covering Strike in the first place.
War Master's Charge and White Raven Hammer also prevent locking/AO-ing for 1 round.
With Warmaster's Charge, it depends. You must target one person with the charge. And if that one person is Lockdown, he is considered readied against each character partaking in the Warmaster's Charge. These are not AoO's, and they are not triggered from movement. He is simply treated as readied against every charge attack against him. Lockdown would interrupt each attack before it landed. As I've said before, a higher degree of battlefield control would be wise, and a feat like Knockback would be very useful in a situation like this, where the enemy almost bypasses the lock, and Lockdown sends them back to try again.
If the charge is against someone else, then Lockdown doesn't get the AoO's. But if his party members were close by, he may simply be able to move and perform the lock on his numerous foes, allowing his party to retreat from the chaos.
With White Raven Hammer, again, we have to assume a large creature with reach, or some sort of teleporting item.
The Lock is indeed good against Time Stand Still (like all Robilar builds), not so much against the Meditant using Greater Insightful Strike as a touch attack for instance.
True. To be honest, against a foe that will not move and has one big attack instead of several attacks, I might forgo Overwhelming Attack and use a full attack, even bull rushing the opponent with Knockback 1-2 squares (dependent on the enemy's reach). Lockdown will deal more damage to match or exceed the Greater Insightful Strike, and will force his opponent to move to attack him, which will trigger an AoO and Standstill. Even if the opponent makes it, he still has Robilar's. Lockdown will get 4-5 attacks on the warblade's 1 attack.
Btw, I would drop Aptitude from the weapon and add Ghost Ward (MIC) to the breastplate (+5 to Touch AC helps quite a bit) ; perhaps also to the shield. I suppose Khan is relying on the party for Minblank, which makes sense - it will be harder to dispel.
I'm not sure Mind Blank is needed with a high enough will save. What effects in particular are we thinking of? There may be other ways.
I think you are severely underestimating the chances to hit of the lockdown. True, swordsages can get prodigious AC at very high level, but outside the AMF the lockdown has around +40 to hit and +46 with AoOs, and can take a 10 when he attacks. I doubt the swordsage can get to AC 50. For that matter I can't see him beating that kind of roll to execute a Fool's Strike or similar counters. His bab is 5 points less and he can't take weapon mastery and greater focus.
Well, if we swap the lockdown's strength score to dex for the sword sage and the lockdown's dex to wisdom for the swordsage, the sword sage is going to be sitting on a AC of 27 with nothing else. Add in the lockdown's +5 natural armor, +5 dex item and you're up to an AC of 37 pre-armor. The real trick isn't in the armor per say though....
That's an initiative of +19 if he grabs improved initiative and nothing else. That also puts the swordsage's reflex save at +27 with the +5 to saves item lockdown has.
That's already very close to the antithesis of the lockdown. Add in Child of Shadow Stance and all the AoO pretty much go out the window, not to mention the teleporting maneuvers which are almost a given. Then exactly how the swordsage finishes the lockdown off becomes a matter of what other maneuvers they've taken. The swordsage still has things like Diamond Defense, Leaping Flame, Hand of Death to start with just the very tip of the iceberg.
> Snipping assumptions about tactics. <
So... maybe a swordsage can be built able to take down lockdown, but I don't think it is going to be particularly easy. A barbarian, fighter or warblade optimized for hitting very hard (and with Robilar's Gambit, too) seem better choices.
I'd strongly disagree.
Yes, I think Swordsages are among the worst opponents for a Lock.
edit: the point is not that the Swordsage kills the Lock - it is rarely their emphasis. But the Swordsage can bypass the Lock easily, and sometimes break it (freeing its caster friend, for instance).
Then again, a Warblade or Crusader with Covering Strike shuts him down too, but not all of them take it. War Master's Charge and White Raven Hammer also prevent locking/AO-ing for 1 round.
Aelrynth, I don't think you need to defend the strength of the Lock against martial artists - it wasn't meant against them in the first place. He can still contribute but it's dependent on the opponent's tactics.
The Lock is indeed good against Time Stand Still (like all Robilar builds), not so much against the Meditant using Greater Insightful Strike as a touch attack for instance.
Btw, I would drop Aptitude from the weapon and add Ghost Ward (MIC) to the breastplate (+5 to Touch AC helps quite a bit) ; perhaps also to the shield. I suppose Khan is relying on the party for Minblank, which makes sense - it will be harder to dispel.
Ghost Ward doesn't add to TOuch Ac. It adds to your AC against INCORPOREAL attacks...which is a total waste. Energized Armor would add to Touch AC.
The reason for Mind BLank is because many will saves at level 20 are incredibly high (40+ for a Dragon's Fear Aura, for instance), the consequences tend to be save or die if you do fail, and so Immunity is far, far better then resistance (which is why casters use save or dies against high level foes on the boards here.) It also completely shuts down the use of things like scry or die, foresight, and even True Strike against you, because it thwarts divination magic, also important at those levels.
If you are relying on the party casters for this, it does indeed free up some gold.
==
The thing with the swordsage would end up being reach and ready actions...and the fact the swordsage would have to be hitting him, which he's going to have something of a harder time with then Lockdown is going to have hitting him back. The simple addition of the Shield AC, perhaps via the above Dastana, could change things dramatically. And, of course, it's far easier to resist trips then it is to win at them.
Also, remember that the swordsage cannot regain his manuvers easily. So he can pull out a lot of these tricks, but then he has to regain them by doing virtually nothing...and it sounds like he'd be burning through a lot of them very quickly.
If we're talking an area with Martial Adepts, it might be worth it to pick up improved sunder. The only way the Swordsage is going to be able to reach him is with a Reach weapon and being size L...so, a chain. One OA on the chain, and he likely destroys it with one blow. now he'd have absolute reach advantage and the swordsage can't do much of anything to him. He's got little if any choice but to run. The AMF could actually be used to stop the teleport tricks then, and prevent the Swordsage from moving if Lock stays exactly 10' away.
The swordsage is not likely to kill him if he loses init, and tripping isn't going to kill him, either.
I actually would find a White Raven Covering Strike, that prevents AoO for three rounds, would likely be more dangerous to Lockdown. However, this again assumes a campaign with martial adepts, which would force some feat revisions. Improved Sunder to promptly get rid of the Crusader's weapon would help get past the three rounds, as the Crusader won't be doing his best damage, and Lockdown would probably go defensive in terms of AC since Robilar's wouldln't work for that time period. Also note that OA blows past the dmg pool for the Crusader by a really good margin, and if OA+Robilar's ever kicks in, he'll wipe the Crusader out if the Crusader ever does a full attack. Even a Defensive Sweep+AoO+OA initial is 180 pts of dmg, and could easily take out a crusader in 1 rd, 2 tops.
Rock, paper and scissors. Lockdown can't be everything against everything all the time, but with a little bit of tailoring to specific campaigns, he can emphasize particular attacks good against particular kinds of foes. I mean, if you are getting into a campaign with martial adepts all over the place, maybe you don't want those mage slaying feats. that opens up more feats to change. Note that the swordsage build prefaced to take him down doesn't really have any special talents for taking out spellcasters...it's going to be very feat intensive doing what it's doing, as most martial adept builds are, and swordsages in particular are noted for how fast they lose their manuvers since their refresh method effectively takes them out of a fight for an entire round, which can be an eternity in combat.
Lockdown is very flexible as built right now, extremely effective against spellcasters, and can hold his own against a wide variety of enemies. Swap some feats around, and he becomes extremely focused, very quickly, and if you remove hsi anti-spellcaster stuff from his gear, opens up a lot of possibilities for loot to raise his combat ability instead of his caster bashing.
It's a build and a foundation to expand on for a campaign. Khan did a nice job tailoring it to what he believed was a more proper end with party support. the original build is more self-sufficient, because one of the things Opts whine about is how the Fighter soaks up buff spells from the party casters. Lockdown does no such thing, even though assuming so would be very, very good for him.
===Aelryinth
=======Aelryinth
He could only remain hidden if he's still in cover. If he moves out of cover, he's hosed. The -20 basically applies to missile guys.
===Aelryinth
He could use items to create cover.
If your interpretation is correct, the Crusader needs quite a few mooks/summoned creatures to charge with him and eat the AoOs - not realistic except for minion-toting BBEGs.
Ghost Ward doesn't add to TOuch Ac. It adds to your AC against INCORPOREAL attacks...which is a total waste. Energized Armor would add to Touch AC.
That's exactly the kind of attitude that makes me sympathize with the people who attack you.. more violently, shall we say. Please go read the Ghost Ward ability in the MIC.
The reason for Mind BLank is because many will saves at level 20 are incredibly high (40+ for a Dragon's Fear Aura, for instance), the consequences tend to be save or die if you do fail, and so Immunity is far, far better then resistance (which is why casters use save or dies against high level foes on the boards here.) It also completely shuts down the use of things like scry or die, foresight, and even True Strike against you, because it thwarts divination magic, also important at those levels.
If you are relying on the party casters for this, it does indeed free up some gold.
Agreed, except that Mind Blank does not shut down True Strike or Foresight. Since you don't defend the Lock as an arena build, it seems a logical step to rely on the party for these protections.
The thing with the swordsage would end up being reach and ready actions...and the fact the swordsage would have to be hitting him, which he's going to have something of a harder time with then Lockdown is going to have hitting him back. The simple addition of the Shield AC, perhaps via the above Dastana, could change things dramatically. And, of course, it's far easier to resist trips then it is to win at them.
Also, remember that the swordsage cannot regain his manuvers easily. So he can pull out a lot of these tricks, but then he has to regain them by doing virtually nothing...and it sounds like he'd be burning through a lot of them very quickly.
If we're talking an area with Martial Adepts, it might be worth it to pick up improved sunder. The only way the Swordsage is going to be able to reach him is with a Reach weapon and being size L...so, a chain. One OA on the chain, and he likely destroys it with one blow. now he'd have absolute reach advantage and the swordsage can't do much of anything to him. He's got little if any choice but to run. The AMF could actually be used to stop the teleport tricks then, and prevent the Swordsage from moving if Lock stays exactly 10' away.
The swordsage is not likely to kill him if he loses init, and tripping isn't going to kill him, either.
The SS isn't likely to lose Init. I agree he won't kill the Lock, the point is that he defeats the locking mechanism. Would you use your AMF against a Swordsage ? It'd be risky to find yourself facing a spellcaster without it in the next encounter.
(Without ranks in Martial Lore you technically don't know what he's capable of.)
When I play I tend to avoid Sundering because it brings to attention how much items are fragile. ;) You may not appreciate the next warmage/sorcerer you come across lobbing a maximized orb of acid at your chain.
That said, I agree it's a valid technique.
Now that I think about it, I don't think Robilar triggers for Sunder attempts - so it's a valid option for a melee opponent of the Lock. (Not that DMs send too many after their players, it's too cruel...)
I actually would find a White Raven Covering Strike, that prevents AoO for three rounds, would likely be more dangerous to Lockdown. However, this again assumes a campaign with martial adepts, which would force some feat revisions. Improved Sunder to promptly get rid of the Crusader's weapon would help get past the three rounds, as the Crusader won't be doing his best damage, and Lockdown would probably go defensive in terms of AC since Robilar's wouldln't work for that time period. Also note that OA blows past the dmg pool for the Crusader by a really good margin, and if OA+Robilar's ever kicks in, he'll wipe the Crusader out if the Crusader ever does a full attack. Even a Defensive Sweep+AoO+OA initial is 180 pts of dmg, and could easily take out a crusader in 1 rd, 2 tops.
Well, the Crusader has Stone Power, the stance of Immortal Fortitude and the Heal capstone maneuver - I wouldn't dismiss him so easily.
Rock, paper and scissors. Lockdown can't be everything against everything all the time, but with a little bit of tailoring to specific campaigns, he can emphasize particular attacks good against particular kinds of foes. I mean, if you are getting into a campaign with martial adepts all over the place, maybe you don't want those mage slaying feats. that opens up more feats to change. Note that the swordsage build prefaced to take him down doesn't really have any special talents for taking out spellcasters...it's going to be very feat intensive doing what it's doing, as most martial adept builds are, and swordsages in particular are noted for how fast they lose their manuvers since their refresh method effectively takes them out of a fight for an entire round, which can be an eternity in combat.
We are not discussing the efficiency of swordsages against spellcasters.
Most of the time, a fight will be over before a swordsage runs out of maneuvers - at least that's my understanding ; I haven't played a high-level swordsage. Also note that many martial adepts multiclass.Even if actual players should tailor their characters to their campaigns, we should not make any assumption about the encounters in this thread. Hence, martial artists are as likely as spellcasters, undead and dragons.
Lockdown is very flexible as built right now, extremely effective against spellcasters, and can hold his own against a wide variety of enemies. Swap some feats around, and he becomes extremely focused, very quickly, and if you remove hsi anti-spellcaster stuff from his gear, opens up a lot of possibilities for loot to raise his combat ability instead of his caster bashing.
You'll need a psion if you truly want to swap feats around. ;)
It's a build and a foundation to expand on for a campaign. Khan did a nice job tailoring it to what he believed was a more proper end with party support. the original build is more self-sufficient, because one of the things Opts whine about is how the Fighter soaks up buff spells from the party casters. Lockdown does no such thing, even though assuming so would be very, very good for him.
More a foundation for a build than a build. I think you rave on his versatility too much, but it's indeed pretty versatile for a Fighter.
Now, what would be amazing is if somebody made an optimized build at level 10. I wonder what his tactics look like at that level.
edit: I'm tired so if I sound incoherent, you'll know why.
edit2: btw, where is the item that allows you to drink a potion as move action from ?
Argaud: I don't think I'm underestimating the counters ... I can just agree to disagree with you though without to much difficulty. I'm sure that one of those counters replaces the swordsage's (ah hell lets call him" ChuckToss) ac with a skill check and skill checks are of the things one can optimize the hell out of. I haven't gone over all the counters recently in all honesty, and I'm not about to right this sec (off to school) but someone using the right one should work. Thats neither here nor there though.
Khan: Well, when I discoverd the hole I figured I'd point it out. . . but damned if I know how to plug it. I just picked up the MIC last night before work and haven't had a chance to read it, so thanks for the info about the sweeping enchanment. Not that big a loss. Again though I'm not making out a whole build for it just yet nor really was that my intent but I gotta say the initial post listed him as "HUMAN" and I've been going of the Ops inital build. So forgive me but I ignored the whole "Half-ogre" thing cause I figure it'd do just as well to make "Toss" of a race that has reach or have him teleport in (since I hope I've helped establish that the Swordsage wins initiative) and then toss him. . . but I ... I can only think about one version of the build at a time a I'm not being detailed here just making obsevations which I'm really glad to get noticed. I didn't know that the build had shifted to being large "officially" But I mean enlarge can be made permanent so you know ... thats what I meant by all things considered equal.
Aelryinth:... Sunder?
1. I could see that but since sunders not in the build and I've explained that I believe the overwhelming attack will fail to hit...
*shrugs* I don't know.
2. I do know that Sunders not in the build nor is it in the "feats I considered section" so I figure "Chucktoss" does very well, but at since it's not and you're considering it now I figure I've helped the discussion at least.
3. Now why would you be NOT considering an area with martial adepts as you yourself have a stance up? So basically you just hadn't thought of this attack and its cool.
4... you do realized that when you say "The swordsage is not likely to kill him if he loses init" ... thats quite possibly exactly what could happen.
Especially if he uses an antimagic field and hits you with that Mountain strike right?
Ultimately though I think I've found one of the many possible answers to the build the Tob provides but I'll leave that to you guys. Chucktoss the swordsage has just as many answers and waaaay more threats you know?
I wish I had more time. . .
Ahh off to class.
G'day to you.
My artificer has a AMF cone on his lead lined thieves helmet. Rather handy generally, and this should stop lockdown's teleport or second move action to close.
"Arcane Sight" should identify the threat. (pretty common party defensive tactic.)
He'll never see this, but grab the druid an Air Elemental companion and use the following feats with it:
Marital Study: Crusader Strike
Combat Reflexes
Standstill
Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
Improved Initiative
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
Mage Slayer
Weapon Finesse: Spiked Chain
Give it the following items:
+4 str tome
+5 dex tome
Anti-Magic Torc
Masterwork Spiked Chain
Now compare it to the fighter in the AMF:
Only class levels qualify for effective initiator level, not HD.
Actually, it just says character level. The only time it mentions class level is with the Martial Adepts.
Well, if we swap the lockdown's strength score to dex for the sword sage and the lockdown's dex to wisdom for the swordsage, the sword sage is going to be sitting on a AC of 27 with nothing else. Add in the lockdown's +5 natural armor, +5 dex item and you're up to an AC of 37 pre-armor. The real trick isn't in the armor per say though....
That's an initiative of +19 if he grabs improved initiative and nothing else. That also puts the swordsage's reflex save at +27 with the +5 to saves item lockdown has.
The swordsage actually can't afford this, and this is a point I forgot to make when Midnight suggested 'all things considered equal'.
For strength, Lockdown has spent 146,000 gold pieces. On dexterity, he has spent 118,500 gold pieces. If we assume the swordsage has spent the same on dexterity and wisdom (as you say) then he has already gone over his wealth limit at level 20 by 44,000 gold pieces. With those ability scores, he couldn't actually afford the natural armor (another 50,000 gold), the cloak of resistance (another 25,000), or the empyreal dastana (another 49,175 gold).
The swordsage couldn't even afford magic armor or weapons, or anyway to teleport. He couldn't afford to keep up with Lockdown's initiative items as Midnight suggested either.
If we keep an eye on Lockdown to make sure he follows the wealth by level limits (which we have and we should), then we should do the same for his NPC opponents that supposedly make the build nonfunctional. Consistency is key.
@Khan : I re-read Hold the Line and now I'm not sure about what I said anymore. It does seem like Hold the Line could grant an AoO, depending on how you interpret the "no AoO for moving" part of the WM's Charge.
If your interpretation is correct, the Crusader needs quite a few mooks/summoned creatures to charge with him and eat the AoOs - not realistic except for minion-toting BBEGs.
Actually Omen, I wasn't referring to Hold the Line. Lockdown is wearing Steadfast Boots. Among other things, the boots treat him as automatically readied against any charge that targets him as if he had spent a standard action to do so and was holding a weapon that can be set against a charge. Meaning, anytime someone charges Lockdown, he gets an attack and deals double damage (so long as he wields a two-handed weapon).
In the case of Warmaster's Charge, everyone that charges Lockdown would get attacked first as his readied action interrupts their attack (as per PHB). These are not AoO's, so he couldn't run out of attacks no matter how many people charged him. I'm likely going to put Knockback in the build (to deal with the people that can evade the lock), and in this case, he could literally end up pushing everyone back without taking a single hit.
In regards to Mind Blank... I have to admit, I don't like it. I don't really like immunities. The 1/day item isn't that bad, but it could just as easily come from your party caster. I'll likely just stick to a high will save.
Argaud: I don't think I'm underestimating the counters ... I can just agree to disagree with you though without to much difficulty. I'm sure that one of those counters replaces the swordsage's (ah hell lets call him" ChuckToss) ac with a skill check and skill checks are of the things one can optimize the hell out of. I haven't gone over all the counters recently in all honesty, and I'm not about to right this sec (off to school) but someone using the right one should work. Thats neither here nor there though.
You are thinking of Baffling Defense. And I suppose it depends on how much the swordsage wants to invest in optimizing his Sense Motive check. Even with maximum ranks and a +7 wisdom modifier (as in Previn's example, where he matched the swordsage's wisdom to lockdown's dexterity), the swordsage has a +30, which is a 40 AC on a 10. Lockdown hits that except on a 1.
Here's a look at how I think he other counters a swordsage has access to would match up as far as evading a lock...
Feigned Opening makes Lockdown provoke an AoO from the swordsage if he misses. If Lockdown hits, he provokes an AoO from all allies of the swordsage that threaten him. Meh. The point is that few people get to threaten Lockdown in the 1st place. Hence the lock ;). If you threaten Lockdown to take advantage of the AoO granted by this maneuver, then the lock has already failed.
Fool's Strike pits your attack roll against Lockdown's. Not likely to win. Further, it doesn't work on AoO's, which is what fuels the lockdown.
Mirrored Pursuit merely allows you to follow Lockdown if he moves, but you have to be adjacent to him, which isn't likely if he locks you down. (Remember, the point is to use counters to avoid a lock. If you've already avoided it, the point is moot. If you haven't, then you likely aren't adjacent to Lockdown and this counter can't be used.)
Scorpion Parry is another opposed attack roll. Lockdown is likely to win.
Stalking Shadow is like Mirrored Pursuit, allowing you to move with your enemy, but only if he was adjacent to you.
One With Shadow has a chance of screwing things up by granting you a 50% miss chance with incorporeality. A ghost touch effect beats it though.
Fire Riposte simply lets you attack back for 4d6 fire damage. I hope you are within reach and don't mind another AoO (with possible double damage).
Leaping Flame is actually interesting. The counter lets you move adjacent to an opponent that just hit you. I'm not sure what could be done with this, but it's something...
Zephyr Dance gets you +4 AC against 1 attack. Might be useful, depending on the swordsage's starting AC and Lockdown's attack roll modifier (if he's suffering penalites and such).
Action Before Thought swaps a concetration check for your reflex save. This is probably useful if Lockdown doesn't use Overwhelming Attack on his turn. But it depends on how high the swordsage can roll.
Diamond Defense is probably better than Action Before Thought. At level 20, we're looking at a base reflex save of +32 before dexterity and any items. Still not enough to hit between 60 and 70 consistently though (or at all).
Rapid Counter doesn't seem too useful unless you have a way to make Lockdown provoke and you can actually reach him.
Khan: Well, when I discoverd the hole I figured I'd point it out. . . but damned if I know how to plug it. I just picked up the MIC last night before work and haven't had a chance to read it, so thanks for the info about the sweeping enchanment. Not that big a loss. Again though I'm not making out a whole build for it just yet nor really was that my intent but I gotta say the initial post listed him as "HUMAN" and I've been going of the Ops inital build. So forgive me but I ignored the whole "Half-ogre" thing cause I figure it'd do just as well to make "Toss" of a race that has reach or have him teleport in (since I hope I've helped establish that the Swordsage wins initiative) and then toss him. . . but I ... I can only think about one version of the build at a time a I'm not being detailed here just making obsevations which I'm really glad to get noticed. I didn't know that the build had shifted to being large "officially" But I mean enlarge can be made permanent so you know ... thats what I meant by all things considered equal.
I'm not considering anything official really. I'm just reading what you guys think are potential problems with the build and going from there. My hypothetical lockdown will be constantly evolving until I feel he's as solid as can be. Right now, it seems best to make him naturally large, to ensure a great reach and to help with battlefield control in the case of lockdown evaders.
As for sunder, I'm definitely considering it for my version of the build. An opponent that can reach you is more than likely using a reach weapon, and taking that from him will go far in ensuring a lockdown. Likewise, although you can't hit a spring attacker because they move, you can hit them for attacking. That attack can destroy their weapon and then send them flying back, forcing them to recover ground lost. That's why I'm considering feats like Knockback, Improved Sunder, and Combat Brute.
Dastanas basically grant a shield bonus to AC, no? I think you have to make these bracers.
Dastanas essentially are bracers that can be worn with certain armors (like a chain shirt). They grant an armor bonus that stacks with your other armor bonus and any shield worn. This is the same for the chahar-aina.
Steadfast boots also give a bonus against trip, bull rush and overrun, don't they?
Yeppers, I forgot to add that in (the other stuff is the important stuff to me ;)).
I believe this needs to be wielded to take effect. You'd have to change this to +1 Armor Spikes of Warning...or add it to the gauntlets.
Good call. I'll just add it to the gauntlets and save 300 gold
.Aren't the Dastana occupying this slot? (Not sure)
I believe so. I'll just add the effect to the dastanas, since they are essentially bracers. Price stays the same.
I'm not sure you can apply all of these, especially on the Animated Shield. Also, didn't they errata the Animated enchantment to +3 or 4?
I'm not sure about the errata, I'll have to check. I'm also not sure about adding the clasps to those items as well now that I've reread them in OA. They don't seem to be armor or shields.
I don't see why adding a crystal to the animated shield would be a problem though.
The major weaknesses I note are lack of teleporting ability. It's too neccessary an ability at high level to have without having some recourse to it. That's why I have blinking and would prefer boots of teleporting on the main build. You also have no scrying defense (the Mind Blank device.)...nor the ability to stick up the AMF. If those aren't important to your build, that's fine by me!
Well, I've freed up 110,000 gold, so I'm definitely getting a teleportation effect (or two) and some packets of Dust of Negation.
And allows a swordsage to pass through an AMF unharmed no matter how good a lockdown character is, since he is intangible and invulnerable to normal weapons.
Honestly, I think that with Dex 30 (and Wis 24) the swordsage is better off using bracers of AC 8. That alone gives him AC 25 for 64k. I am not sure if that leaves enough cash for the amulet and rings +5. But even with those the AC is just 35 (I have no idea where Pervin gets 37 without armor). The lack of shield hurts a lot.
Wow, One With Shadow is not a supernatural maneuver, that is utterly wrong and utterly awesome
Yeah.
:D
And allows a swordsage to pass through an AMF unharmed no matter how good a lockdown character is, since he is intangible and invulnerable to normal weapons.
Not quite. If he uses it in response to Lockdown, it will only last until the beginning of his next turn, which will not allow him to move while incorporeal (the effect will end before he gets to move in other words).
If he uses it on his turn though, that's a different story. I'm not sure why Lockdown would use an AMF with him anyways though (and if it's the Dust of Negation, Lockdown is outside of the effect, so he'd be able to hit the swordsage once he exited).
Honestly, I think that with Dex 30 (and Wis 24) the swordsage is better off using bracers of AC 8. That alone gives him AC 25 for 64k. I am not sure if that leaves enough cash for the amulet and rings +5. But even with those the AC is just 35 (I have no idea where Pervin gets 37 without armor). The lack of shield hurts a lot.
The Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Deflection are both 50,000 gold each for the +5 version.
That would put the swordsage at 164,000 gold of his 220,000 total.
The swordsage actually can't afford this, and this is a point I forgot to make when Midnight suggested 'all things considered equal'.
For strength, Lockdown has spent 146,000 gold pieces. On dexterity, he has spent 118,500 gold pieces. If we assume the swordsage has spent the same on dexterity and wisdom (as you say) then he has already gone over his wealth limit at level 20 by 44,000 gold pieces. With those ability scores, he couldn't actually afford the natural armor (another 50,000 gold), the cloak of resistance (another 25,000), or the empyreal dastana (another 49,175 gold).
The swordsage couldn't even afford magic armor or weapons, or anyway to teleport. He couldn't afford to keep up with Lockdown's initiative items as Midnight suggested either.
If we keep an eye on Lockdown to make sure he follows the wealth by level limits (which we have and we should), then we should do the same for his NPC opponents that supposedly make the build nonfunctional. Consistency is key.
We could get it higher, but the whole point of using the same equipment was that it was completely balanced and equal. Don't make assume it's NPC wealth. Unless we should also assume that DMs will use lockdown as an NPC and similarly restrict him to NPC only wealth, in which case what I said is exactly the same.
"I get more money" isn't a valid argument, especially since we don't know if the opponent is PC, NPC or even a special NPC that the DM has given non-standard wealth to, which is acceptable anyways.
You say "Consistency is key." I was being consistent, both 'sides' having the same funds since we don't have any reason to assume they wouldn't. "All things being equal."
Honestly, I think that with Dex 30 (and Wis 24) the swordsage is better off using bracers of AC 8. That alone gives him AC 25 for 64k. I am not sure if that leaves enough cash for the amulet and rings +5. But even with those the AC is just 35 (I have no idea where Pervin gets 37 without armor). The lack of shield hurts a lot.
Base AC 10 +5 natural +5 deflection +10 dex +7 wisdom = 37. Pretty simple if you actual read what I suggested and took 2 seconds.
And again, why should we assume it uses NPC wealth?
PC's fight NPC's. It's that simple. And NPC's have less wealth, because they are NPC's. They aren't supposed to be as strong.
Arguing that he is fighting another optimized PC build is essentially arguing a PvP match, and that's pointless. It goes beyond the scope of the game and is irrelevant.
And again, if you want to say that it's a special NPC with way more wealth than normal, that's fine. But once again, you're using an exception to the norm to fight Lockdown.
And when I say consistency, I mean within the context of the rules and its assumptions. We're testing how Lockdown works in the game, and in the game NPC's have 1/3 the wealth of PC's. Let's not start changing the rules now just to try and prove a point.
All things cannot be equal between a PC and his NPC opponent.
And when I say consistency, I mean within the context of the rules and its assumptions. We're testing how Lockdown works in the game, and in the game NPC's have 1/3 the wealth of PC's. Let's not start changing the rules now just to try and prove a point.
All things cannot be equal between a PC and his NPC opponent.
Who is changing rules? Did someone say we could only compare to NPCs? Did someone say that lockdown could only be a PC? How does lockdown fair with NPC gear? (Hint: crappy).
Basically you're trying to shift the focus away from the point being made. THe swordsage is more than capable of avoiding the lockdown through reflex saves and initiative alone. Drop all the wisdom and just keep the dex, it's the key point anyways.
Who is changing rules?
Well, if we consider NPC's with 3 times their normal amounts of wealth, then we are changing rules.
Did someone say we could only compare to NPCs? Did someone say that lockdown could only be a PC?
Previn, the OP assumes wealth by level for a player character (a PC). He lists in his intent that Lockdown is meant to be a contributing member of an adventuring party, and that's pretty obvious, as the focus is stopping enemies from getting by and allowing your party members to defeat him.
We humans play D&D by assuming a fictional character in a fictional game world as part of an adventuring party.
Sure. A DM can use Lockdown as an NPC. But he would be different, because he would have less wealth.
If you're going to try and convince me that Aelryinth didn't intend this as a build for a player to use, don't bother. I won't believe you.
How does lockdown fair with NPC gear? (Hint: crappy).
Why should I care? Every discussion pertaining to class balance is always from the perspective of the PC. If you're stronger than your caster party members, if you can hurt the monsters or survive encounters, etc. This is pretty much a given.
Now, if Lockdown is assumed to be a PC (which I'm pretty sure he is, considering his wealth and the intent of the build), then he fights monsters and NPC's. So I'm not interested if he gets bested by a swordsage PC, because he won't be fighting any.
Basically you're trying to shift the focus away from the point being made. THe swordsage is more than capable of avoiding the lockdown through reflex saves and initiative alone. Drop all the wisdom and just keep the dex, it's the key point anyways.
I am not trying to shift the focus at all. You didn't see me say 'The swordsage loses because he's an NPC'. I didn't make any claim pertaining to whether or not he still beats Lockdown. I merely corrected the false assumption that he has the same amount of wealth as Lockdown. Whether that will determine if he can evade a lock or not has yet be seen.
Well, if we consider NPC's with 3 times their normal amounts of wealth, then we are changing rules.
Previn, the OP assumes wealth by level for a player character (a PC). He lists in his intent that Lockdown is meant to be a contributing member of an adventuring party, and that's pretty obvious, as the focus is stopping enemies from getting by and allowing your party members to defeat him.
We humans play D&D by assuming a fictional character in a fictional game world as part of an adventuring party.
Sure. A DM can use Lockdown as an NPC. But he would be different, because he would have less wealth.
If you're going to try and convince me that Aelryinth didn't intend this as a build for a player to use, don't bother. I won't believe you.
Why should I care? Every discussion pertaining to class balance is always from the perspective of the PC. If you're stronger than your caster party members, if you can hurt the monsters or survive encounters, etc. This is pretty much a given.
Now, if Lockdown is assumed to be a PC (which I'm pretty sure he is, considering his wealth and the intent of the build), then he fights monsters and NPC's. So I'm not interested if he gets bested by a swordsage PC, because he won't be fighting any.
I am not trying to shift the focus at all. You didn't see me say 'The swordsage loses because he's an NPC'. I didn't make any claim pertaining to whether or not he still beats Lockdown. I merely corrected the false assumption that he has the same amount of wealth as Lockdown. Whether that will determine if he can evade a lock or not has yet be seen.
I'm sorry khan but this is a huge copout. If you assume it's an NPC you are automatically assuming lockdown wins since (if you are using standard gaming rules as you say you are) the game is designed for the PC's to win in 90% of the cases. It's no where near an "all things considered equal" comparison as you say.
As for other issues. I have a multi question ticket in with custsrv and will deal with them when I get a reply.
Actually Omen, I wasn't referring to Hold the Line. Lockdown is wearing Steadfast Boots. Among other things, the boots treat him as automatically readied against any charge that targets him as if he had spent a standard action to do so and was holding a weapon that can be set against a charge. Meaning, anytime someone charges Lockdown, he gets an attack and deals double damage (so long as he wields a two-handed weapon).
In the case of Warmaster's Charge, everyone that charges Lockdown would get attacked first as his readied action interrupts their attack (as per PHB). These are not AoO's, so he couldn't run out of attacks no matter how many people charged him. I'm likely going to put Knockback in the build (to deal with the people that can evade the lock), and in this case, he could literally end up pushing everyone back without taking a single hit.
Wait, those boots give you an infinite amount of attack actions as long as you get charged !? I'm AFB, and I didn't read their text too closely - I thought they just allowed you to deal double damage with any TH weapon (not just spears and the like), but that you still needed to ready an action. It sounds like they need an errata.
In regards to Mind Blank... I have to admit, I don't like it. I don't really like immunities. The 1/day item isn't that bad, but it could just as easily come from your party caster. I'll likely just stick to a high will save.
I dislike absolutes too (change Mindblank into a fat bonus to Will saves ; change AMF to require CL checks ; modify True Seeing too...).
Mindblank does help against no-save mind-affecting effects (Power Words and Irresistible Dance).
With Shadow has a chance of screwing things up by granting you a 50% miss chance with incorporeality. A ghost touch effect beats it though.
It's stronger than that : use it on your turn and bypass the lock by going right below the surface.
Side note : Earth Elementals (druid wildshaped, or gish shapechanged or elemental companion, or Earth Dreamers) could use Earth Glide to the same effect. There is also a wizard spell in a LoM that does exactly the same as One with Shadow.
It also seems fair to me to give the concurrent build PC wealth. I do agree that the Lock is likely to crush pure NPCs, but wouldn't it be easy for any optimized PC build if we follow the DMG guidelines ? (I haven't really built high-level NPCs, so I wouldn't know).
@archerpwr : I did point out the Swiftblade as an anti-Lock gish. I suspect aelrynth and Khan will be better than me at finding counter-tactics.
When we come down to the amount of wealth we aren't really discussing the core build. All arguments on the strength of the build should rely primarily on the build itself; not wealth.
Wealth is integral to any build. Any tripper will need wealth later on to actually trip stuff. Any warrior will need wealth later on to actually survive a round and do whatever it is he is supposed to do.
It's unfortunate that the game is run that way, but that's how it is.
Specific items can very rarely be assured. Ancestral relic is one of the few ways for nonartificers to assure wealth. Lockdown does not have ancestral relic. All arguments based on wealth negating wealth are futile without a way to assure said magic items. Thank you for your time.
So forget the wealth. Show me how the swordsage evades the lock so I can attempt to plug it.
I'm sorry khan but this is a huge copout.
*shrugs*
It's the facts of life. I didn't even say the swordsage loses, where am I copping out?
If you assume it's an NPC you are automatically assuming lockdown wins since (if you are using standard gaming rules as you say you are) the game is designed for the PC's to win in 90% of the cases.
Then what is the issue? If the game is designed for the PC's to win 90% of the time by limiting NPC resources, then doesn't it make sense that Lockdown will likely win against an NPC?
What is wrong with following the fundamentals of the game?
Also... what exactly do we gain by pitting him against optimized PC's that know his strengths, weaknesses, and tactics and are built primarily to defeat him?
It's no where near an "all things considered equal" comparison as you say.
That was Midnight and Previn, and I humored Midnight for one post, before I pointed out that it is in fact impossible for everything to be equal between a PC and an NPC due to the restrictions the game puts on NPC's. These restrictions include less wealth, lower ability scores (with Elite being the highest), and susceptibility to certain mechanics.
There is a hard difference between PC's and NPC's. That you think we should judge Lockdown by running him against optimized PC builds (with his strengths and weaknesses in mind) is irrelevant. It doesn't make any sense.
It would be like me posting a half-elf bard build, and showing everyone his tricked out Diplomacy check. Then you pop in and say 'Sorry Khan, but you can't use Diplomacy on PC's, you can only use it on NPC's. I see no reason to assume that the bard is a PC or his opponents are NPC's.' I'll argue that the build is intended to be used as a player character, and he will be fighting NPC's. You'll say it's a copout, and it's obvious that he'll win against NPC's. I'll be like this --->
.Further, don't take this as a cop-out, or an admission that Lockdown would actually fail against an optimized PC. I'm simply making a point. Please feel free to continue optimizing your player character builds. Either way, I get to see problems with the build and can work to resolve them.
stuff
Don't forget NPC wealth and meh spell selection. Can the level 12 lockdown kill an appropriate CR NPC? That's what I'm curious about. This is an off the shelf NPC, so no accusations of building to counter lockdown.
Khan: missed the point. Wealth is more or less assured. 1/day mindblank items or that laundry list you made earlier are not.
Wealth is integral to any build. Any tripper will need wealth later on to actually trip stuff. Any warrior will need wealth later on to actually survive a round and do whatever it is he is supposed to do.
It's unfortunate that the game is run that way, but that's how it is.
So forget the wealth. Show me how the swordsage evades the lock so I can attempt to plug it.
*shrugs*
It's the facts of life. I didn't even say the swordsage loses, where am I copping out?
Then what is the issue? If the game is designed for the PC's to win 90% of the time by limiting NPC resources, then doesn't it make sense that Lockdown will likely win against an NPC?
What is wrong with following the fundamentals of the game?
Also... what exactly do we gain by pitting him against optimized PC's that know his strengths, weaknesses, and tactics and are built primarily to defeat him?
That was Midnight and Previn, and I humored Midnight for one post, before I pointed out that it is in fact impossible for everything to be equal between a PC and an NPC due to the restrictions the game puts on NPC's. These restrictions include less wealth, lower ability scores (with Elite being the highest), and susceptibility to certain mechanics.
There is a hard difference between PC's and NPC's. That you think we should judge Lockdown by running him against optimized PC builds (with his strengths and weaknesses in mind) is irrelevant. It doesn't make any sense.
It would be like me posting a half-elf bard build, and showing everyone his tricked out Diplomacy check. Then you pop in and say 'Sorry Khan, but you can't use Diplomacy on PC's, you can only use it on NPC's. I see no reason to assume that the bard is a PC or his opponents are NPC's.' I'll argue that the build is intended to be used as a player character, and he will be fighting NPC's. You'll say it's a copout, and it's obvious that he'll win against NPC's. I'll be like this --->
Further, don't take this as a cop-out, or an admission that Lockdown would actually fail against an optimized PC. I'm simply making a point. Please feel free to continue optimizing your player character builds. Either way, I get to see problems with the build and can work to resolve them.
No, you are not comparing it to optimized PC's and I have no problem with that. The problem is that aelryinth in his brazen flaming called us out to put up an optimized build becuase it can lock down "any caster any time". That is why we have posted PC builds. We were answering his challenge.
As for a way out of lockdown, an NPC sorcerer 20 with a snake familiar, max ranks in bluff, persuasive feat, and a +6 modifier in CHA (easily attained even by an NPC). My bluff modifier is 34. I bluff lockdown as a full round action explaining that I am merely an ultra powerful illusion that can act and bleed as normal and exist in an AMF. Being a way out bluff you get +20 to your sense motive check. unfortunately wis is your dump stat and you have no ranks in sense motive so it's +20 Vs +34 on the roll. If I roll a 7 or more you auto fail.
Not optimized at all and easily done by an NPC.
He could use items to create cover.
And that would only work if you were dumb enough to stay in a position where the Spring Attacker has cover/concealment.
All you have to do is stay 10' from these things and the spring attacker has to come out to get to you.
====Aelryinth
And that would only work if you were dumb enough to stay in a position where the Spring Attacker has cover/concealment.
All you have to do is stay 10' from these things and the spring attacker has to come out to get to you.
====Aelryinth
Could ya stop the elitism? It's unwarranted and is what really pisses people off. I'm having trouble turning the other cheek...
Khan: missed the point. Wealth is more or less assured. 1/day mindblank items or that laundry list you made earlier are not.
I didn't miss the point. I've seen this point made a gazillion times and I simply don't agree with it.
No, you are not comparing it to optimized PC's and I have no problem with that. The problem is that aelryinth in his brazen flaming called us out to put up an optimized build becuase it can lock down "any caster any time". That is why we have posted PC builds. We were answering his challenge.
Fair enough. Perhaps I'm causing some confusion since I wasn't here at the beginning and I'm coming at this from a different angle. For that I apologize.
I'll try to come up with my complete version before I post again. Until then, I'll keep an eye on the thread for other bypasses. (Note, I may be tempted to post even before I finish my build. If I do... sue me.)
As for a way out of lockdown, an NPC sorcerer 20 with a snake familiar, max ranks in bluff, persuasive feat, and a +6 modifier in CHA (easily attained even by an NPC). My bluff modifier is 34. I bluff lockdown as a full round action explaining that I am merely an ultra powerful illusion that can act and bleed as normal and exist in an AMF. Being a way out bluff you get +20 to your sense motive check. unfortunately wis is your dump stat and you have no ranks in sense motive so it's +20 Vs +34 on the roll. If I roll a 7 or more you auto fail.
Not optimized at all and easily done by an NPC.
Interesting
.Though not enough for me to invest in Sense Motive boosters.
If your interpretation is correct, the Crusader needs quite a few mooks/summoned creatures to charge with him and eat the AoOs - not realistic except for minion-toting BBEGs.
That's exactly the kind of attitude that makes me sympathize with the people who attack you.. more violently, shall we say. Please go read the Ghost Ward ability in the MIC.
Whoops. Better if you just explained it...I ws thinking of a different armor enchantment, the Ghost Touch or something, that worked against incorps but not Touch attacks. This one is not much better, as it only adds the enhancement bonus against touch attacks. I'll repeat my point that Energized Armor adds ALL your Armor bonus, nto just the Enhancement bonus.
Agreed, except that Mind Blank does not shut down True Strike or Foresight. Since you don't defend the Lock as an arena build, it seems a logical step to rely on the party for these protections.
Actually, True Strike is a divination being used to gather information about you to set up a astrike, and Foresight relies on information being gathered about you to warn whoever has it going. In both cases, you'd be a 'blank spot', just like someone scrying into an area that you are in.
If you don't agree, then feel free to disagree, but this isn't a rules area where I've seen a lot of protests, especially given that Mind Blank can even thwart deities and Wish.
The SS isn't likely to lose Init. I agree he won't kill the Lock, the point is that he defeats the locking mechanism. Would you use your AMF against a Swordsage ? It'd be risky to find yourself facing a spellcaster without it in the next encounter.
(Without ranks in Martial Lore you technically don't know what he's capable of.)
In a campaign heavy with Martial Adepts, things change. I also can't see Martial Lore not making it onto a FIghter's skill list, all things considered...Lockdown would be better off with all his weapons/buffs against a swordsage, anyways.
What's really funny is that with a simple Sense Motive check, he can learn the SS's TH bonus and dmg for his primary tactic.
When I play I tend to avoid Sundering because it brings to attention how much items are fragile. ;) You may not appreciate the next warmage/sorcerer you come across lobbing a maximized orb of acid at your chain.
That said, I agree it's a valid technique.
It's also why his weapon is a Hardened peice of adamantium! Probably with Blueshine on it for acid immunity...
Now that I think about it, I don't think Robilar triggers for Sunder attempts - so it's a valid option for a melee opponent of the Lock. (Not that DMs send too many after their players, it's too cruel...)
I don't think so. It still requires an attack roll to get off, so I think it would trigger.
Well, the Crusader has Stone Power, the stance of Immortal Fortitude and the Heal capstone maneuver - I wouldn't dismiss him so easily.
Actually, I was taking all of them into account. You have to realize that with OA Lockdown is pounding out more then 60 pts a HIT...and he's going to hit. That totally overwhelms Stone Power, the Damage Pool, and the fort save for immortal fortitude. Four hits and the crusader is never going to get out his healing strike...and two swings eats up the full force of the healing strike. OA is not to be underestimated.
We are not discussing the efficiency of swordsages against spellcasters.
Most of the time, a fight will be over before a swordsage runs out of maneuvers - at least that's my understanding ; I haven't played a high-level swordsage. Also note that many martial adepts multiclass.Multiclassing tends to defer acquisition of high level manuvers, and Swordsages often have problems with getting off all those counters in ideal circumstances. Khan does a better job addressing them then I will.
Even if actual players should tailor their characters to their campaigns, we should not make any assumption about the encounters in this thread. Hence, martial artists are as likely as spellcasters, undead and dragons.
That's why you have to account for build flexibility. Campaigns force adjustment.
You'll need a psion if you truly want to swap feats around. ;)
Training rules from UA do the job, too. Both in the SRD.
More a foundation for a build than a build. I think you rave on his versatility too much, but it's indeed pretty versatile for a Fighter.
Now, what would be amazing is if somebody made an optimized build at level 10. I wonder what his tactics look like at that level.
All the feats are by level, so knock yourself out, all you have to change is the gear and some stats.
edit: I'm tired so if I sound incoherent, you'll know why.
edit2: btw, where is the item that allows you to drink a potion as move action from ?
Potion belt lets you draw as a free action, so you can suck it down as a move action.
===Aelryinth
I didn't miss the point. I've seen this point made a gazillion times and I simply don't agree with it.
Until I see leadership for the artificer cohort, we're just not going to see eye to eye. I'm going to ignore any references to magic items from this point out.
When we come down to the amount of wealth we aren't really discussing the core build. All arguments on the strength of the build should rely primarily on the build itself; not wealth. Specific items can very rarely be assured. Ancestral relic is one of the few ways for nonartificers to assure wealth. Lockdown does not have ancestral relic. All arguments based on wealth negating wealth are futile without a way to assure said magic items. Thank you for your time.
Why do you think specific items cannot be assured?
Most items have a gold pieces cost, and most of them are available in a normal campaign. Only super-expensive items like greater rods of quicken are beyond the scope of what one can secure in a metropolis-sized city.
It says so very clearly in the DMG. I have no idea why you keep insisting in this subject. Next we know you will be joining the club of those guys that say the only way to measure a character power is force him to fight naked, in a ring, against other PCs, and only at level 20.
(I am not kidding, those guys exist!)
Wow, One With Shadow is not a supernatural maneuver, that is utterly wrong and utterly awesome
And allows a swordsage to pass through an AMF unharmed no matter how good a lockdown character is, since he is intangible and invulnerable to normal weapons.
Honestly, I think that with Dex 30 (and Wis 24) the swordsage is better off using bracers of AC 8. That alone gives him AC 25 for 64k. I am not sure if that leaves enough cash for the amulet and rings +5. But even with those the AC is just 35 (I have no idea where Pervin gets 37 without armor). The lack of shield hurts a lot.
Lockdown probably has the Ghost Touch Augment Crystal on his weapon as default, and so could hit incorps...much more effective then having a Ghost Touch weapon.
===Aelryinth
Wait, those boots give you an infinite amount of attack actions as long as you get charged !? I'm AFB, and I didn't read their text too closely - I thought they just allowed you to deal double damage with any TH weapon (not just spears and the like), but that you still needed to ready an action. It sounds like they need an errata.
Yes. Infinite numbers of attacks as long as you are charged! Confirmed by CustServ.
But, since you counts as having readied an action, all the guys that charged you get to act again before you do. So you better leave few survivors.
Lockdown probably has the Ghost Touch Augment Crystal on his weapon as default, and so could hit incorps...much more effective then having a Ghost Touch weapon.
===Aelryinth
However Previn calculations are correct. With Bracers of AC 8 the sadowsage moves with a very respectable AC 45.
Still eats all the AoOs, though, but AC 45 is remarkable for a guy in no armor.
Why do you think specific items cannot be assured?
Most items have a gold pieces cost, and most of them are available in a normal campaign. Only super-expensive items like greater rods of quicken are beyond the scope of what one can secure in a metropolis-sized city.
It says so very clearly in the DMG. I have no idea why you keep insisting in this subject. Next we know you will be joining the club of those guys that say the only way to measure a character power is force him to fight naked, in a ring, against other PCs, and only at level 20.
(I am not kidding, those guys exist!)
Because not every campaign has a local MageMart.
Besides if your build is relying on specific magic items to be effective then it is not simply a good build. It's not too hard to have an item stolen, destroyed, seized, or whatever.
No, you are not comparing it to optimized PC's and I have no problem with that. The problem is that aelryinth in his brazen flaming called us out to put up an optimized build becuase it can lock down "any caster any time". That is why we have posted PC builds. We were answering his challenge.
As for a way out of lockdown, an NPC sorcerer 20 with a snake familiar, max ranks in bluff, persuasive feat, and a +6 modifier in CHA (easily attained even by an NPC). My bluff modifier is 34. I bluff lockdown as a full round action explaining that I am merely an ultra powerful illusion that can act and bleed as normal and exist in an AMF. Being a way out bluff you get +20 to your sense motive check. unfortunately wis is your dump stat and you have no ranks in sense motive so it's +20 Vs +34 on the roll. If I roll a 7 or more you auto fail.
Not optimized at all and easily done by an NPC.
And it works right up until I attack him or he's in an AMF? Note that Lockdown has spellcraft ranks because of his Mage Slayer feats, and might just be able to identify the spell...or lack thereof.
===Aelryinth
Until I see leadership for the artificer cohort, we're just not going to see eye to eye. I'm going to ignore any references to magic items from this point out.
Then you might as well figure that Lockdown loses every fight after a certain level and bow out of the thread. Because that's what happens to PC's with no magic equipment.
Because not every campaign has a local MageMart.
And not every campaign doesn't have a local MageMart. See how pointless assumptions are? We should just go by the books. And even beyond the DMG (which tells us where we can buy magic items), Magic Item Compendium says that PC's should be able to purchase whatever items they want within their purchasing abilities.
So, you guys can keep stacking things however you want them, and we'll keep playing the way the rules suggest we play. We'll be fighting NPC's with our magic gear, and you guys can fight optimized CO builds in a world where you can't even assume you'll have a +1 weapon.
Besides if your build is relying on specific magic items to be effective then it is not simply a good build. It's not too hard to have an item stolen, destroyed, seized, or whatever.
You're right. Curse me for not being able to penetrate DR 15/Cold Iron and Good with my bare hands. Or making a DC 31 Will save with just my mind, or hitting an AC 40 Pit Fiend with a stick I picked up off the floor, etc.
Because not every campaign has a local MageMart.
They do according the DMG. Sure, DMs can do whatever they want with their homebrew worlds. But the rules say clearly that magic items can be purchased in cities. Anything else are houserules.
Besides if your build is relying on specific magic items to be effective then it is not simply a good build. It's not too hard to have an item stolen, destroyed, seized, or whatever.
So can be the wizard's spellbook and the cleric holy symbols. By that statement wizards and clerics cannot be used for good builds.
Just looking at that build, it's got a horrible melee attack for a level 12 melee (primary at +15? Ugh), a lousy AC (20? jeez) and only 50 HP. It's got the default Polymorph on Spell List for Form-Cheese, and only 9th level caster ability with a somewhat substandard spell selection. I suppose it lies on miss chances for surviving.
Duh? It's not optimized. Now tell me how lockdown defeats it. 50' move, spring attack, a ranged weapon (dex heavy), and teleport.
Because not every campaign has a local MageMart.
Besides if your build is relying on specific magic items to be effective then it is not simply a good build. It's not too hard to have an item stolen, destroyed, seized, or whatever.
While true, this logic is also unbalanced, as it throws ever more power to spellcasters, who DO have access to the specific magic and spells they want, and will scream 'nerfage' if there is attempts to rein this in.
Thus, money is assumed to be part of every character, and filling in holes with specific magic perfectly common and viable for any character. "Being satisfied" with what the DM gives you is like "Being satisfied" with the beaters on the Rusty Cars R Us Lot, when you've got the cash to get a new Porsche.
===Aelryinth
As for a way out of lockdown, an NPC sorcerer 20 with a snake familiar, max ranks in bluff, persuasive feat, and a +6 modifier in CHA (easily attained even by an NPC). My bluff modifier is 34. I bluff lockdown as a full round action explaining that I am merely an ultra powerful illusion that can act and bleed as normal and exist in an AMF. Being a way out bluff you get +20 to your sense motive check. unfortunately wis is your dump stat and you have no ranks in sense motive so it's +20 Vs +34 on the roll. If I roll a 7 or more you auto fail.
How is that a weakness of the lockdown? Lets see...
Hmm... you know wizards, clerics, druid and sorcerers? They don't have Sense Motive either! Your NPC sorcerer automatically defeats the four most powerful classes in Core by telling amazing but utterly credible lies, congratulations, he can actually make them believe they have lost all magic just by talking to them!
And it works right up until I attack him or he's in an AMF? Note that Lockdown has spellcraft ranks because of his Mage Slayer feats, and might just be able to identify the spell...or lack thereof.
===Aelryinth
Wow way not to read the suggested bluff, I spacifically called out those two conditions. I am not running any spells at all, that was a streight bluff check. No items were used at all (you can get an ability scoe of 22 even with an NPC without items). Spellcraft lets you identify running spells or spells being cast (and to top if off you have minimal ranks in it, and the DC for identifing running spells has a DC of 20+ spell level), knowing about spells is knowladge arcane of which you have none, coupled with a low int and wis leave you with no clue about higher level magic. So what are you negating here? Answer nothing. Your posting some incoherent babble and making it sound like you are countering my point when in reality you are just aking yourself look like more of an a$$. My reply was to Kahn not you.
Duh? It's not optimized. Now tell me how lockdown defeats it. 50' move, spring attack, a ranged weapon (dex heavy), and teleport.
He'll never get the Teleport off in Lock range (provokes AoO), Spring Attack runs into a readied action and he'll gladly trade dmg; their movement is only 10' apart (and Lockdown can probably access Haste thru boots of speed or a potion), and all Lockdown has to do is get within 10' and this guy can't even do a Spring Attack, meaning he's hosed.
the additional move actions from a Belt of Battle would probably do the job all by themselves for the setup. This guy is not casting quickened spells...the only thing to worry about is the Miss Chance, and with Pierce magical concealment that wouldn't be a problem, either.
I'm just wondering why, after 20 pages of tactics that included miss chances, movement, ranged attacks and spring attacks, you couldn't figure all that out for yourself?
===Aelryinth
Assume you follow wealth by level (big assumption)
Assume once in a while you get handed loot that isn't on your to buy list
Said item must be sold at half price to get stuff on the list
We can assume you'll get some items you want. We can't assume the wealth will break down exactly as desired to get a whole laundry list.
Sure you can buy stuff. Just not 100% of wealth can be assured to be allocated where you want.
So can be the wizard's spellbook and the cleric holy symbols. By that statement wizards and clerics cannot be used for good builds.
I knew someone was going to go there. Notice I said speciifc magic items, not items that are easily available to a level 1 character.
And I suppose you could twist my logic further by saying that any character except for monks and sorcerers with the eschew materials feat are not good builds since you know fighters need weapons and armor, rogues need equipment, etc.
Until I see leadership for the artificer cohort, we're just not going to see eye to eye. I'm going to ignore any references to magic items from this point out.
In other words, you aren't going to be playing the game. Fair enough, I don't expect to see you on the boards again!
===Aerlyinth
Wealth:
Assume you follow wealth by level (big assumption)
Assume once in a while you get handed loot that isn't on your to buy list
Said item must be sold at half price to get stuff on the list
We can assume you'll get some items you want. We can't assume the wealth will break down exactly as desired to get a whole laundry list.
Sure you can buy stuff. Just not 100% of wealth can be assured to be allocated where you want.
And yet, by the rules, it IS. And if it's not, the party will likely spend resources on feats to make it so. Because there's tremendous party in being able to determine your own mix of magic items instead of random loot being handed out to you. Note that at 'half cost', you are better off having the mage make your items for a little xp cost then selling...and much better off having the artificer do it and NOT lose xp.
===Aelryinth
I knew someone was going to go there. Notice I said speciifc magic items, not items that are easily available to a level 1 character.
And I suppose you could twist my logic further by saying that any character except for monks and sorcerers with the eschew materials feat are not good builds since you know fighters need weapons and armor, rogues need equipment, etc.
They aren't Optimized Builds, no, although I have no doubt they are fun for certain campaigns, and thy ignore general rules guidelines.
===Aelryinth
Wow way not to read the suggested bluff, I spacifically called out those two conditions. I am not running any spells at all, that was a streight bluff check. No items were used at all (you can get an ability scoe of 22 even with an NPC without items). Spellcraft lets you identify running spells or spells being cast (and to top if off you have minimal ranks in it, and the DC for identifing running spells has a DC of 20+ spell level), knowing about spells is knowladge arcane of which you have none, coupled with a low int and wis leave you with no clue about higher level magic. So what are you negating here? Answer nothing. Your posting some incoherent babble and making it sound like you are countering my point when in reality you are just aking yourself look like more of an a$$. My reply was to Kahn not you.
(Correction) Way to read it and then subtly point out as a PC I can choose to believe it or not, regardless of what my instincts say. You just didn't pick up on it, eh? Well, for someone who devolves to a personal attack when his argument doesn't hold water, I can't say I'm suprised. You didn't even make allowances for the fact that the build has minimum REQUIRED ranks. It certainly could have more. (shakes head)
===Aelryinth
How is that a weakness of the lockdown? Lets see...
Hmm... you know wizards, clerics, druid and sorcerers? They don't have Sense Motive either! Your NPC sorcerer automatically defeats the four most powerful classes in Core by telling amazing but utterly credible lies, congratulations, he can actually make them believe they have lost all magic just by talking to them!
And where in that post you quoted did I ever say that it was a weakness. I was helping kahn by pointing out a way to get out of the lockdown situation. Kahn is actually trying to be constructive and work on the concept rather than continually being a jack***** like the OP. So I am helping him. Adding in either an item or feat to help out with basic skills would do alot for the build.
stuff
Lockdown can never match the elf's move speed (30+30+20).
Belt of battle is more broken than shapechange. It wins on any build.
Tell me how lockdown wins. Sweeping generalizations and unwarranted elitism and condescention are not that.
(Correction) Way to read it and then subtly point out as a PC I can choose to believe it or not, regardless of what my instincts say.\
And you would be metagaming which most DM's look very poorly on. As for the other arguments, I have hardly dropped them but since you can't see past your own ego I am simply not debateing them. When I get a clerification back from Custsrv I will post it and let that be that one way or the other.
And yet, by the rules, it IS. And if it's not, the party will likely spend resources on feats to make it so. Because there's tremendous party in being able to determine your own mix of magic items instead of random loot being handed out to you. Note that at 'half cost', you are better off having the mage make your items for a little xp cost then selling...and much better off having the artificer do it and NOT lose xp.
===Aelryinth
what? That is completely incoherant.
I knew someone was going to go there. Notice I said speciifc magic items, not items that are easily available to a level 1 character.
And I suppose you could twist my logic further by saying that any character except for monks and sorcerers with the eschew materials feat are not good builds since you know fighters need weapons and armor, rogues need equipment, etc.
That an item is easily available does not make it unbreakable or unstealable if the DM is into taking away the PC's toys. If you think that having gear taken away is the main weakness of some builds then both clerics and wizards should be in the top of your list of undesirable characters.
Personally I think that taking away the PCs gear is something that should happen only rarely, as a plot device (to advance the story or because something cool will happen that requires ItemX to be removed). Most PCs will have all the gear they are acquired 99% of the time. Therefore using 'the item can be taken away' as a reason to dismiss a build is not good reasoning.
Lockdown can never match the elf's move speed (30+30+20).
Belt of battle is more broken than shapechange. It wins on any build.
Tell me how lockdown wins. Sweeping generalizations and unwarranted elitism and condescention are not that.
Hmm, 80' is what a hasted character can charge in one round.
If flying, make it 160'.
If the character is running, he can floor anyone in 120' even in heavy armor, 150' in medium. Double that when flying.
(Notice Khan's build still moves a base 30', so you can increase those numbers a bit)
That elf is not safe from lockdown by a long shot.
Haste = +30'
New Land Speed = 60'
Charge = Speed x 2 = 120'.
Where are you getting 80'?
That an item is easily available does not make it unbreakable or unstealable if the DM is into taking away the PC's toys. If you think that having gear taken away is the main weakness of some builds then both clerics and wizards should be in the top of your list of undesirable characters.
Personally I think that taking away the PCs gear is something that should happen only rarely, as a plot device (to advance the story or because something cool will happen that requires ItemX to be removed). Most PCs will have all the gear they are acquired 99% of the time. Therefore using 'the item can be taken away' as a reason to dismiss a build is not good reasoning.
Wizards can take the spell mastery feat, have their spellbook tattooed on them (per Complete Arcane), having several copies of his spell book, or several other things not mention good luck trying to steal a high level wizard's spellbook. Clerics have options too like carrying multiple holy symbols or having the holy symbol embedded in his palm.
Lockdown highlights one of the fighter's significant weaknesses in reliance to the point on dependence on magic items and in lockdown's case being completely dependent on a specific, non-standard, and expensive magic item and you're relying on the DM to have this specific magic item in the campaign. Take away lockdown's toy and it becomes as effective as a newborn kitten.
Land Speed = 30'
Haste = +30'
New Land Speed = 60'
Charge = Speed x 2 = 120'.
Where are you getting 80'?
Mithral fullplate, being medium armor, restricts that to base 20, hasted +20, charge 80'.
Khan's lockdown, as mentioned, uses light armor, so your numbers are right for him.
Lockdown highlights one of the fighter's significant weaknesses in reliance to the point on dependence on magic items and in lockdown's case being completely dependent on a specific, non-standard, and expensive magic item and you're relying on the DM to have this specific magic item in the campaign. Take away lockdown's toy and it becomes as effective as a newborn kitten.
Read the 1st intention in the OP. It has nothing to do with locking down casters specifically. Lockdown doesn't need an AMF all the time. The AMF is useful against casters since they *might* have teleportation effects or some other way to bypass Lockdown (or even kill him).
But if Lockdown were to go up against a caster and not use an AMF, and that caster didn't have the right spell prepared to escape, then an AMF wasn't even needed to maintain the lockdown.
The AMF is nothing. If casters routinely kill you in 1 round every encounter, your game sucks. As far as I'm concerned, the AMF is there just to ensure that the caster can't escape through magical means that Lockdown can't normally stop.
But saying he is as effective as a kitten without an AMF is only demonstrating that you don't know how the build works.
It's amazing the kind of hoops you have to jump through when posting a fighter build. If this was a DMM Cleric build everyone would be here offering advice, and not one person would mention that the build sucks because you can just get dispelled (even though Greater Dispel is not limited to just casters, but actually shows up on high level monsters). But with a fighter, you have to be immune to every tactic in the universe, and your own tactic has to work all the time. And you can't rely on items (like Nightsticks, Ankhs, Metamagic Rods, etc.).
Mithral fullplate, being medium armor, restricts that to base 20, hasted +20, charge 80'.
Khan's lockdown, as mentioned, uses light armor, so your numbers are right for him.
Actually Argaud, the half-ogre uses the same boots in the OP, so his speed is a decent 40'.
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but I figured I'd throw it in.
Pathetic...
Show
Rarely have I felt so cheated in a discussion. So suddenly after all these arguments in threads, Fighter vs. Wizard, Wizard vs. Sorc., CoDzilla's vs everybody all these years of discussion and no one's ever mentioned that?
Npc wealth? Ridiculous, Khan.
Npc wealth? Ridiculous, Khan.
Faerun?: Magic items of high level aren't for sale.
What?
Do you know Faerun? Waterdeep has a rating of metropolis+, you can purchase items up to 200,000 gold there. It says so right into the supplement called, unsurprisingly, Waterdeep. Virtually all the cities in Faerun’s suplements list the city caps for item purchase, and boy, they are high caps!
Yes, any item up to 200,000 gold.
Npc wealth the DMG "suggests" that. Thats not a rule. The Dmg Suggests lots of things.
I'm not sure I"m going for that Magic mart either as most Dms. MOST Dm's Mind you don't have a magic mart.
You know most DMs? You must be must be a very sociable guy. Or maybe just a very arrogant one.
All the DMs I know but one allow magic-mart. Some ban obviously broken items like the Candle of Invocation, but I don’t see anything like that in the lockdown gear.
YOUR BUILD IS AT THE WHIM OF THE DM! If MOST of its strength comes from items.
JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.
Yes, DMs can houserule that magic items do not exist, congratulations for mentioning Rule Zero and falling into the Oberoni Fallacy.
In other words, since DMs can also ban any spell they want from their games, it is obvious all casters are useless, since they are at the whim of the DM.
I look at Straud and drizzt and Elminster and NONE of them use NPC wealth chart
Go check them again. I don’t know who Straud is, but Drizz uses NPC wealth chart, and he sucks so hard that a poorly built 12th level fighter will slaughter him easily.
And finally:
USINGING CAPS DOES NOT MAKE YOU LOOK SMARTER.
Tony Stark here dies to Imprisonment too because of his mindblank item.
Discern location won't work thus he can never be freed
But. Imprisonment will work.
So he's imprisoned forever.
Also Disjuction may do somthing as well as Tony(Lock) is so heavily item based.
As well as trap the soul...
Fortunately, for my argument there aren't that many 9level spells in the dmg
so a wizard is bound to have one of them.
Though Disjunction is hardly useful against the antimagic field. The chance of nullifying one is only 1% per caster level.
Well honestly tshern I believe his antimagic field is an item that must be activated.
So you disjunction him before he gets an action. The paramaters they set out were ridiculous, the reality is that under that system they just set up Tony Stark up there will lose intiative due to surprise mostly.
11 will save and mind blank is a hole I'm glad to take advantage of, disjuction should work if the fields not active yet, and Imprisonment is funny too.
So since they keep setting up new rubrics as we go.. heres the new rubric. Tony(Lockdown)Stark loses initiative. Or is suprised, Cause thats if the opponents are stuck using less money then the balance of that is made up in situational advantage.
or Maybe I'm still outraged by Khans shennaigans.
I'm just like damn, I can't belive he tried the "Well I'm Ballin' harder" argument. LOL who is this guy Puff Daddy... wow thats much better than tony stark.
Edit: If he fails his save against Ego whip, he is also dazed for a round. That means you can jump on to him and beat him up or just throw more powers at him.
Insulting me doesn't make you more right.
It just makes you look like a jerk. Which you know
based on my recollection of you, are not.
I really wasn't even talking to you. So please be civil, as I've
no said anything insulting to you. Infact my first post was a
good to see you again Argaud.
Admissions.
Well, I did look at the Npc wealth list. Though i do think that its ridiculous to pull it out this late in the discussion, it does appear to be a rule not a suggestion.
I do know Faerun pretty well, maybe I've misread something.
I dont' have waterdeep though I have the 3.0 faerun book and a bunch of supplements I'll look up magic in couple hours, but whats the name of the Magic store in waterdeep?
JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.
Yes, DMs can houserule that magic items do not exist, congratulations for mentioning Rule Zero and falling into the Oberoni Fallacy.
In other words, since DMs can also ban any spell they want from their games, it is obvious all casters are useless, since they are at the whim of the DM
See now for a second there you almost got me, but seriously, casters get spells as class abilites. Spells are guaranteed... "BY THE CLASS" so no thats not a fallacy at all. You will get spells, might not be the spells you want but they come at the alloted time as class abilities, not the whim of the dm. Especially spontaneous casters... but really I'm not interested in arguing that point with you I'm not even interested in convincing you. Cause if you don't recognize the difference already aruging with you actually weakens my position in the long run because no one wins a two front war...
Besides I'm over it now.
I actually think this build fails to defeat spell casters under the presented rubric as they do infact kill you in the first round.
And finally,
Not knowing who Straud is, doesn't make you look smarter either.
But I write in all caps for emphasis here and there. Its not like the whole thing is one big WOWPwnzr! What's wrong with you?
See now for a second there you almost got me, but seriously, casters get spells as class abilites. Spells are guaranteed... "BY THE CLASS" so no thats not a fallacy at all. You will get spells, might not be the spells you want but they come at the alloted time as class abilities, not the whim of the dm.
Exactly, you get spellcasting by default. You don't get the spells the DM decides do not exist in his game, which might be the ones you want. Same happens with items, if the DM decides that there are no... vorpal swords, for instance, you can't purchase them.
But this is houseruling, by default all the spells in the books exist, as do all the items. A wizard than wants spell X can buy a scroll of the spell, or spend some time researching it. A character that wants magical item Y can always find it in a city, if the city is large enough to allow for the purchase.
And finally,
Not knowing who Straud is, doesn't make you look smarter either.
But I write in all caps for emphasis here and there. Its not like the whole thing is one big WOWPwnzr! What's wrong with you?
I don't see why my intelligence has any relation with knowing about a NPC so obscure I can't find him/her in Google.
Unless you mean Strahd, which I have seen other times misspelled as Straud. But he is not even a Faerun character.
Hmm, 80' is what a hasted character can charge in one round.
If flying, make it 160'.
If the character is running, he can floor anyone in 120' even in heavy armor, 150' in medium. Double that when flying.
(Notice Khan's build still moves a base 30', so you can increase those numbers a bit)
That elf is not safe from lockdown by a long shot.
Swift Surge (Ex): Your body is augmented with the residual energy of previous haste castings. You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. At 7th level, these bonuses increase to +2. At 4th level, you gain a +10 foot enhancement bonus to all of your modes of movement and deal an extra 1d6 points of damage during any round in which you move at least 10 feet. At 10th level, this bonus increases to +20 feet and an extra 2d6 points of damage during any round in which you move at least 20 feet. These bonuses stack with the bonuses gained from the haste spell and skirmish ability
Hasted (quickened for free per sudden casting) the elf has a speed of 70. Even the hasted lockdown can't beat that at 12. If I add fly to that (yes, they stack for fly speeds) (yes the sample NPC doesn't know fly, but he does know polymorph) the swiftblade is completely outmatching lockdown's inferior haste/boots. Lockdown cannot ever match the move speed of a swiftblade. Ever.
Hasted (quickened for free per sudden casting) the elf has a speed of 70. Even the hasted lockdown can't beat that at 12. If I add fly to that (yes, they stack for fly speeds) (yes the sample NPC doesn't know fly, but he does know polymorph) the swiftblade is completely outmatching lockdown's inferior haste/boots. Lockdown cannot ever match the move speed of a swiftblade. Ever.
He doesn't have to win a race against the swiftblade, he just has to catch him. And it is easy if the swiftblade is doing anything else but run like rabbit.
The problem of the swiftblade is that he needs to use a standard action to attack. That means he has at a single move.
And the lockdown can either charge (double move) or run (quadruple move). So the swiftblade is caught, and if he is caught, he is dead.
Npc... wealth by level.... thats the best you can come up with?
Pathetic...
It seems to me by the way you and several other people have reacted to my point that this is more about being right and proving yourself than actually sitting down and discussing how Lockdown would fare in an actual game.
I really couldn't care less that you think me bringing the point up is pathetic, ridiculous, or some stunt to try and stack the discussion in favor of Lockdown. You simply don't know how the game is meant to be played. You, like others, are stuck in the CO world, which very rarely does anything with the context of the actual game in mind.
So please, get over it. Either contribute something useful, or leave. I'm not interested in what you think about actually following the rules of the game.
Rarely have I felt so cheated in a discussion. So suddenly after all these arguments in threads, Fighter vs. Wizard, Wizard vs. Sorc., CoDzilla's vs everybody all these years of discussion and no one's ever mentioned that?
Npc wealth? Ridiculous, Khan.
Ugh. Do I honestly have to do all of the thinking here?
There is a huge difference between a wizard vs. a fighter and determining how well Lockdown will do in a game.
In the game, you fight monsters and NPC's. It makes perfect sense then to pit a build against monsters and NPC's to see how well it would do in the game.
PvP's are entirely different. If you want to pit a cleric against a fighter to see which is the stronger class, go ahead. Give them both PC or NPC wealth, I don't care. But don't for a second think that the result will tell you how well a cleric or fighter will do in a game.
What a disgusting tactic. How low of you... but you know whatever bro.
I really wish I could somehow enlighten you to what's really going on here. At the very least, you might stop popping up in these threads and insulting me for no reason.
If were going to start pulling shennanigans out how about this...
Where the hell are you gonna play lockdown?
Where does a magic mart exist in which you can by everything?
The RPGA?: Lockdown can't even be built yet.
(and honestly thats signifigant no tob)
Faerun?: Magic items of high level aren't for sale.
Ebberon: Well you know you might find it you might not everything is in EBCS but you might not be able to get it.
So if you're not playing in "Santioned games" then this build only exists in your home where the rules are different from my home.
Npc wealth the DMG "suggests" that. Thats not a rule. The Dmg Suggests lots of things.
I'm not sure I"m going for that Magic mart either as most Dms. MOST Dm's Mind you don't have a magic mart.
Nor does Rpga events which is standard D&D (Mtg reference)
The problem is the builds that have every magic item they want are Bull
because it really up to the DM.
YOUR BUILD IS AT THE WHIM OF THE DM! If MOST of its strength comes from items.
*Everything* is up to the DM. Prestige classes, feats, items, XP, multiclassing, spells, etc. The list goes on to the high heavens.
Do you even realize how contrived pretty much anything we discuss here is? We can never truly go over a scenario here that will always be a definite case. Anything that we go over will always have to be in the form of 'If' statements. The best we can do is come as close to what the books say as possible.
You call me ridiculous, when I am the one trying to be the most reasonable. I'm the one trying to stick to the books as much as possible, instead of assuming that PC's can't purchase magic items, and that most DM's equip their NPC's with PC wealth, both of which go against the rules of the game.
People say we're assuming so much, and then turn around and make even bigger assumptions.
And how dare you come in here and say 'Most DM's... blah blah blah...'? Get real. I wish there was a Do you even know what in the world you're talking about? filter.
I look at Straud and drizzt and Elminster and NONE of them use NPC wealth chart!
So what exactly is the NPC wealth chart for if not to determine how much money an NPC of any given level will have? Please back your answer with a cite from the DMG.
What I wanna really know is how it even got to this point. How the hell did this build get past. Time stop: DO FRIKKIN EVERYTHING! GUESS WHAT YOU"RE DEAD.
Time Stop pretty much works against everyone and is so useless to this thread. There is nothing I can do for Lockdown against a Time Stop. How would you like me to optimize against it?
I suspect that everything that gets said you throw some b.s. at. Oh a wizard will lost initiative unless he's opt for initiative.
I don't throw BS. I scrutinize. I try not to make sweeping generalizations. I know that a +20 initiative modifier still isn't enough to guarantee you go 1st every time. But you know what? It's still very good, and you're still likely to go 1st.
You may be comfortable saying that a caster will win initiative every single time and will kill Lockdown in round 1 every single time, but I'm not. I like to put a little more thought into the claims that I make.
If Khan's setting up the rubric that Lockdowns a pc and suddenly everyone you fight is a NPC with Npc Gear.
I'm not setting anything up. I'm going by the book. Do you know what RAW is? I know that you do. Why should we follow the rules in one instance and not the other? Why should we arbitrarily bump every NPC's wealth up to match a PC?
He doesn't have to win a race against the swiftblade, he just has to catch him. And it is easy if the swiftblade is doing anything else but run like rabbit.
The problem of the swiftblade is that he needs to use a standard action to attack. That means he has at a single move.
And the lockdown can either charge (double move) or run (quadruple move). So the swiftblade is caught, and if he is caught, he is dead.
Being a single move action away prevents lockdown from doing more than just charging and getting one hit off. 50% miss means that in two rounds the swiftblade can get off a teleport. Either that or just polymorph. You're pick. Any time lockdown fails to kill the target is a failure to lock it. Lockdown just got mage slayer and thicket of blades. One teleport away means the swiftblade can come back knowing all lockdown's trick and use a fricken bow or fly.
and.... Again, I'm really not gonna argue it with you on that topic its a stupid repeating argument that never gets solved. However, I'll explain my position on that one last time.
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Items are not class abilities. You can't always expect to be able to find this item or that in a timely manner, your campaign maybe is on the Isle of dread or in the worlds largest dungeon or some such but that doesn't matter really what matters is a Spellcasters spells are different they're researched "off screen" you don't actually have to do anything.
from the srd
Now these spells are learned regardless of whatever else they find now the Dm can give you whatever he wants in books but you auto learn 2 every level. The Dm doesn't "DO" anything.
In the case of the fighter the Dm "stocks" the shop. He may or may not put what you want in the shop or in the dungeon and if you don't find all the things you want and have to trade for everything that cuts your money in half. That affects things clear enough.
Secondly, I belive the Dmg word it as something like "you can find items up to X cost in a city with a population of Y size" now I don't know how you're supposed to "find" or "aquire" or whatever verbage the book uses said items, or shops in that city gather information checks or something or how much time there is in between adventures but you may or may not be able to get it done in a reasonable about of time (for instance) or you may never make it to a major city at all in many campaigns. Or maybe just maybe I've been screwed out of items all these games of D&D over the years either way its too late to change the thoughts on that now...
from the srd
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.
Now these spells are learned regardless of whatever else they find now the Dm can give you whatever he wants in books but you auto learn 2 every level. The Dm doesn't "DO" anything.
In the case of the fighter the Dm "stocks" the shop. He may or may not put what you want in the shop or in the dungeon and if you don't find all the things you want and have to trade for everything that cuts your money in half. That affects things clear enough.
Secondly, I belive the Dmg word it as something like "you can find items up to X cost in a city with a population of Y size" now I don't know how you're supposed to "find" or "aquire" or whatever verbage the book uses said items, or shops in that city gather information checks or something or how much time there is in between adventures but you may or may not be able to get it done in a reasonable about of time (for instance) or you may never make it to a major city at all in many campaigns. Or maybe just maybe I've been screwed out of items all these games of D&D over the years either way its too late to change the thoughts on that now...
Lockdown or would it be more cost effiecnet if we (apparently we is Previn, Midnight, Drakinar, and possibly Archerpwr) chip in or save up and buy a greater stone golem. Assuming one can buy any magic item item we want in Waterdeep.
Yes, you can include me. I'm severely irked how much this build is being defended with items.
Yes, you can include me. I'm severely irked how much this build is being defended with items.
Thanks felt like I was drowning there for a sec!;)
Yes, you can include me. I'm severely irked how much this build is being defended with items.
It's how high-level D&D works. Any class gets boned pretty hard by a lack of magic items at 20th level. As I see it, intelligent use of magic items to cover your weaknesses and bolster your main strengths is just good optimization. Every character does it.
It's how high-level D&D works. Any class gets boned pretty hard by a lack of magic items at 20th level. As I see it, intelligent use of magic items to cover your weaknesses and bolster your main strengths is just good optimization. Every character does it.
No, not really. Here's what I had in a level 26 game (what I "needed")
Fortification armor
Proof against transmutation shield
Shadowstriking weapons (wasted money)
Headband of Int
Handy Haversack
Inherent bonuses to all my stats (I had spare gold)
Blessed Book
Here's what I needed:
Ring of evasion
All told my level 26 only needed 5ish items totalling less than level 20 character wealth to be effective. It's called being a gish with a decent build. I was able to just throw away money on a +5 inherent bonus to cha because I didn't need much wealth to be effective.
Just out of curiosity, what was the Ring of Evasion for? You faced some very, very epic dragons or what?
Vile damage maximized deadfalls. Can't recall the name of the metamagic that makes it viledamage, but it was legal.
That's exactly the kind of attitude that makes me sympathize with the people who attack you.. more violently, shall we say. Please go read the Ghost Ward ability in the MIC.
Whoops. Better if you just explained it...I ws thinking of a different armor enchantment, the Ghost Touch or something, that worked against incorps but not Touch attacks. This one is not much better, as it only adds the enhancement bonus against touch attacks. I'll repeat my point that Energized Armor adds ALL your Armor bonus, nto just the Enhancement bonus.
Fair enough. Where is Energized Armor from ? A search doesn't turn up anything.
Agreed, except that Mind Blank does not shut down True Strike or Foresight. Since you don't defend the Lock as an arena build, it seems a logical step to rely on the party for these protections.
Actually, True Strike is a divination being used to gather information about you to set up a astrike, and Foresight relies on information being gathered about you to warn whoever has it going. In both cases, you'd be a 'blank spot', just like someone scrying into an area that you are in.
If you don't agree, then feel free to disagree, but this isn't a rules area where I've seen a lot of protests, especially given that Mind Blank can even thwart deities and Wish.
Mind Blank doesn't stop deity-level magic. It's not the right thread to discuss that, but I'm surprised Mind Blank would be considered to also shut down all divinations. ("You can't use Telepathic Bond to talk to your friends about me - I'm Mindblanked.") True Strike and Foresight let you "see" into the future.
What's really funny is that with a simple Sense Motive check, he can learn the SS's TH bonus and dmg for his primary tactic.
Where is that from ? I'm only aware of Assess Opponent in CAdv, which is not that precise.
It's also why his weapon is a Hardened peice of adamantium! Probably with Blueshine on it for acid immunity...
Blueshine is for Armors. Like it or not, the weapon is a weak link, but as Argaud mentioned, a (nice) DM is unlikely to hose a player badly by destroying the weapon in which he invested 75k gp or more.
Now that I think about it, I don't think Robilar triggers for Sunder attempts - so it's a valid option for a melee opponent of the Lock. (Not that DMs send too many after their players, it's too cruel...)
I don't think so. It still requires an attack roll to get off, so I think it would trigger.
They strike at your weapon, not at you. But see above - this is a problem only if the Lock is used as NPC.
Well, the Crusader has Stone Power, the stance of Immortal Fortitude and the Heal capstone maneuver - I wouldn't dismiss him so easily.
Actually, I was taking all of them into account. You have to realize that with OA Lockdown is pounding out more then 60 pts a HIT...and he's going to hit. That totally overwhelms Stone Power, the Damage Pool, and the fort save for immortal fortitude. Four hits and the crusader is never going to get out his healing strike...and two swings eats up the full force of the healing strike. OA is not to be underestimated.
Perhaps. I wouldn't want to rely on it since it's easy not to have a full-round action available, but I have to admit OA really empowers the build. I just can't bring myself to like the Fighter class, howevermuch I try. ;)
Multiclassing tends to defer acquisition of high level manuvers, and Swordsages often have problems with getting off all those counters in ideal circumstances. Khan does a better job addressing them then I will.
Not so much, given the half-IL progression...
You'll need a psion if you truly want to swap feats around. ;)
Training rules from UA do the job, too. Both in the SRD.
You seem to adjust your feats more often than at each level ; and indeed, at high level, it would seem sensible to use Psychic Reformation to prepare for a fight more adequately.
Potion belt lets you draw as a free action, so you can suck it down as a move action.
If the belt doesn't specifically allow you to drink it as move action :
Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action.
At least a Potion Bladder (DotU p92) allows you to do so without taking an AoO, but that's one action less at the beginning of the fight for the Lock. Or rather, it needs a wizard buddy casting Greater Enlarge. The dependency on caster increases, but again this is IMHO as it should be.
Yes. Infinite numbers of attacks as long as you are charged! Confirmed by CustServ.
But, since you counts as having readied an action, all the guys that charged you get to act again before you do. So you better leave few survivors.
Wow. Thanks for the confirmation.
I'm not one for tricks, but I can imagine quite a few could be based on this : positive like infinite Cleave not on your turn (Bag of Tricks...), or negative - send minions at the character to modify his init count to your advantage. I wonder if it could be used to deny someone his action...
I think it's unreasonable not to let the Lock choose its gear - every other CO build does so ! Of course, a player has to adapt to what happens in his/her campaign, but we're trying to come up with an optimized build.
Though in turn I disagree with Khan and still think it's ok for the concurrent builds in this thread to have PC wealth.
I think it's unreasonable not to let the Lock choose its gear - every other CO build does so ! Of course, a player has to adapt to what happens in his/her campaign, but we're trying to come up with an optimized build.
Though in turn I disagree with Khan and still think it's ok for the concurrent builds in this thread to have PC wealth.
This is the only build I've ever seen on the CO board that has the gear fully selected and payed for without a game ready for that starting level. Every other thread I've seen has had suggestions or a few items. Never 100% of wealth preallocated. Lockdown is the exception.
Vile damage maximized deadfalls. Can't recall the name of the metamagic that makes it viledamage, but it was legal.
Okay dokey, that sounds viable. I am very new to epic game, I've only had one campaign that died on it tracks after three or so session and another one that was, well, very full of powerplaying and we loved it to death.
And you would be metagaming which most DM's look very poorly on. As for the other arguments, I have hardly dropped them but since you can't see past your own ego I am simply not debateing them. When I get a clerification back from Custsrv I will post it and let that be that one way or the other.
What? You actually posted that on CharOpt? Oh my God.
I can see it now...
DM: Sorry, guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Diplomacy check and you are all his fanatic followers.
DM: Sorry, Guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Bluff check, and you just handed him all your magic items because you believed every word of his story about selling them to generate money for the poor.
DM: Sorry, Guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Intimadate check, and you all go running like scared little kids.
Party (in chorus): Would you like to play everything else for our characters, too?
---
As noted, your above argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't care what his DC check is, or if my opposed Sense Motive can't tell if he's lying. As a player, I can do what I like...and I choose to be more careful then not.
===Aelryinth
what? That is completely incoherant.
You mean, incoherent? Like your faulty reasoning?
===Aelryinth
Wizards can take the spell mastery feat, have their spellbook tattooed on them (per Complete Arcane), having several copies of his spell book, or several other things not mention good luck trying to steal a high level wizard's spellbook. Clerics have options too like carrying multiple holy symbols or having the holy symbol embedded in his palm.
Lockdown highlights one of the fighter's significant weaknesses in reliance to the point on dependence on magic items and in lockdown's case being completely dependent on a specific, non-standard, and expensive magic item and you're relying on the DM to have this specific magic item in the campaign. Take away lockdown's toy and it becomes as effective as a newborn kitten.
Wizards can take spell mastery...and never do. They can have their spellbook tattoed on their skin...where if they are in a situation where they lose all their magic items, all their work will likely be seared off their own hide, painfully. Having multiple spellbooks costs money, and you have to be able to get to them. Ditto the cleric and the 'embedded' holy symbol...it can be burned away as easily as the mage's hide.
Lockdown isn't completely dependent on any one item that I can see. His items certainly help him perform the job he wants to do, and that's why I picked them. If you don't like it, eh, find another build.
===Aelryinth
You mean, incoherent? Like your faulty reasoning?
===Aelryinth
Elitism doesn't suit inferior intellects.
Aelryinth, I forgot to mention... I see in the OP that you refer to Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection as general feats. They are also fighter bonus feats. If you look at the table of feats at the beginning of the section, you'll see they are listed as such.
I'm not sure if this helps or not, but I figured I'd throw it in.
I actually looked them up on my feats reference pages, and they came in as General Feats, not ffighter bonus feats, else I'd have tried to stick them in.
They are also General Feats because they are elective. If you don't want such a caster-killing ability, they can be swapped out, and I was trying to make most of the general feats completely elective.
===Aelryinth
I actually looked them up on my feats reference pages, and they came in as General Feats, not ffighter bonus feats, else I'd have tried to stick them in.
They are also General Feats because they are elective. If you don't want such a caster-killing ability, they can be swapped out, and I was trying to make most of the general feats completely elective.
===Aelryinth
So then it can't lock casters either?
This is the only build I've ever seen on the CO board that has the gear fully selected and payed for without a game ready for that starting level. Every other thread I've seen has had suggestions or a few items. Never 100% of wealth preallocated. Lockdown is the exception.
Wow, gotta say you haven't been around too long then. I see 750k of gear on builds all the time, especially classic things like Snow Owl Archer builds, Uber chargers, and so forth.
Now, allocated in such variety and detail, I don't see often either. But there was a reason for that. A lot of level 20 builds are based around stat buffing and powering to 'one trick', usually extremely offensive based. Thus, defenses and versatility are completely ignored in favor of stat boosts and inherent bonuses, which eat up a LOT of gold.
Lockdown's made to be versatile in a lot of situations, and have some pretty good defenses. He's not made to get his strength to ungodly heights for some Uber charging power attack goodness that gets shut down by a Grease spell.
===Aelryinth
Elitism doesn't suit inferior intellects.
Aye, and so you laugh at yourself?
===Aelryinth
So then it can't lock casters either?
? If it's not important for you to have Mage Slayer, it's an elective feat. Some people simply won't want it. Same with PMP. The build isn't stamped in iron...some people simply won't consider Mage Slayer important, they'll just use Ready Actions or something.
===Aelryinth
Vile damage maximized deadfalls. Can't recall the name of the metamagic that makes it viledamage, but it was legal.
Violate Spell turns half the dmg into Vile Dmg, at +1 level cost. Heroes of Horror, I think. Dmg can then only be healed on consecrated ground.
==Aelryinth
Wait, those boots give you an infinite amount of attack actions as long as you get charged !? I'm AFB, and I didn't read their text too closely - I thought they just allowed you to deal double damage with any TH weapon (not just spears and the like), but that you still needed to ready an action. It sounds like they need an errata.
I dislike absolutes too (change Mindblank into a fat bonus to Will saves ; change AMF to require CL checks ; modify True Seeing too...).
Mindblank does help against no-save mind-affecting effects (Power Words and Irresistible Dance).
It's stronger than that : use it on your turn and bypass the lock by going right below the surface.
Side note : Earth Elementals (druid wildshaped, or gish shapechanged or elemental companion, or Earth Dreamers) could use Earth Glide to the same effect. There is also a wizard spell in a LoM that does exactly the same as One with Shadow.
It also seems fair to me to give the concurrent build PC wealth. I do agree that the Lock is likely to crush pure NPCs, but wouldn't it be easy for any optimized PC build if we follow the DMG guidelines ? (I haven't really built high-level NPCs, so I wouldn't know).
@archerpwr : I did point out the Swiftblade as an anti-Lock gish. I suspect aelrynth and Khan will be better than me at finding counter-tactics.
I';ll point out that if you are in his range when you try to do that move into the ground thing, you provoke an AoO and can't move out of your starting square.
Otherwise, if you move underground, you can't see a thing if you stay there, and you have no line of effect for spells. Moving thru earth as an Earth elemental has the same restriction. If you want to see, you have to expose yourself.
==Aelryinth
Could ya stop the elitism? It's unwarranted and is what really pisses people off. I'm having trouble turning the other cheek...
He's proposing that whoever is playing the Lockdown build is going to sit there and eat Spring attacks while doing nothing about it. That is NOT how you play the character. Spring Attacks can be very easily countered...yet the person is claiming infallibility with this one attack mode?
===Aelryinth
Well, I suppose if the mage really wants to come up on him and risk a Touch Attack, it's a decent tactic. Every other mage I've seen wants to stay a very long distance away so they don't get Locked.
And note that his Mind Blank is a cast spell, so it fades after 24 hours unless he re-uses it, so he can be located like anyone else, and Freedom would work just fine. Assuming, of course, his party suddenly forgot where he was Imprisoned at.
Also, the Shatter might be a nice tactic, except you'd have to get through his armor first. It's a torc, meaning necklace, and he IS in full plate.
===Aelryinth
Wow, gotta say you haven't been around too long then. I see 750k of gear on builds all the time, especially classic things like Snow Owl Archer builds, Uber chargers, and so forth.
Check my join date. It's pretty recent. KSB's builds don't ever rely on equipment for tactics. The samples are suggestions and examples of what the numbers would look like.
Now, allocated in such variety and detail, I don't see often either. But there was a reason for that. A lot of level 20 builds are based around stat buffing and powering to 'one trick', usually extremely offensive based. Thus, defenses and versatility are completely ignored in favor of stat boosts and inherent bonuses, which eat up a LOT of gold.
Maybe because the build usually has some sort of defence to start?
Lockdown's made to be versatile in a lot of situations, and have some pretty good defenses. He's not made to get his strength to ungodly heights for some Uber charging power attack goodness that gets shut down by a Grease spell.
Emphasis mine. Anything but, as we have been pointing out.
Aye, and so you laugh at yourself?
===Aelryinth
More unwarranted elitism...
? If it's not important for you to have Mage Slayer, it's an elective feat. Some people simply won't want it. Same with PMP. The build isn't stamped in iron...some people simply won't consider Mage Slayer important, they'll just use Ready Actions or something.
===Aelryinth
Directly contradicts the OP about free feats.
I have deleted some posts, but I have also left some others up.
There will be zero tolerance in this thread for Code of Conduct violations. If you cannot post in a manner that is polite and respectful, you will find yourself facing disciplinary action.
Please report all violations, they will be dealt with swiftly.
Very interesting...
This is the only build I've ever seen on the CO board that has the gear fully selected and payed for without a game ready for that starting level. Every other thread I've seen has had suggestions or a few items. Never 100% of wealth preallocated. Lockdown is the exception.
Is it possible that some people on the CO Board do things differently than others?
Also, how does it irk you that Lockdown is assumed to have certain gear, when the whole thread went into an uproar when I pointed out that the NPC swordsage has limited wealth?
I mean, you guys didn't even bother to see if the swordsage could still do anything. You just started complaining. You complain that Lockdown has items, but turn around and complain that your build doesn't have the items he needs.
Archerpwr, this isn't directed at you really, since you actually posted an NPC with NPC wealth. But still, how can someone begrudge the fact that we assume certain items for Lockdown when their entire argument for why he fails against a swordsage seemingly relies on items as well? Someone even said that it's obvious Lockdown will win against NPC's because of that wealth limit.
So, why the double standard?
Further, disregarding items makes this discussion a whole lot more difficult than it already is. How do I know if Lockdown can even hit since I only know his starting strength? How do I know how high his Standstill DC will be if I don't know what magic weapon he'll have? How do I know if he even comes remotely close to surviving an encounter if I can't assume he'll have a competitive AC and competitive saving throws through magic items?
It is utterly pointless. All we could really do is speak even more hypotheticals than we are speaking right now. Well, if Lockdown has a high enough damage, he could theoretically stop someone with Standstill, depending on the reflex save of the enemy, which may or may not be an NPC, if he wins initiative and is within charging distance, and there is no difficult terrain or other obstacles.
We can cut those if's down if we assume certain things. But leaving everything but feats open is just too much to do anything meaningful. At least for me it is.
Though in turn I disagree with Khan and still think it's ok for the concurrent builds in this thread to have PC wealth.
I made my case, which was only to continue following the RAW, which is the holy grail on these boards (sometimes I guess). As expected, it caused a big stink. I said to continue using PC wealth. It's not a big deal. I'm not as interested in whether a certain build can defeat Lockdown or not. I'm really interested in what can evade his lockdown, or hinder him from pulling it off. From there I can make certain feat choices and item choices, and determine what would be the best way to deal with someone that can evade a lock. And for this, the enemy's wealth doesn't really matter.
Certain mechanics will show up in a game more often than the same exact build, feat choices, items, and spell combos people post here because they know every detail about Lockdown's tactics and shortcomings. I'm interested in those mechanics more than anything else.
I actually looked them up on my feats reference pages, and they came in as General Feats, not ffighter bonus feats, else I'd have tried to stick them in.
Ok. But if you look at pages 74 and 75 of Complete Arcane, they are listed as fighter bonus feats.
Interesting... My one insult got deleted and none of the condescention and elitism that got on my nerves to the point that I violated CoC did..
Very interesting...
Next time use the regular text size and don't bold it ;).
Is it possible that some people on the CO Board do things differently than others?
Also, how does it irk you that Lockdown is assumed to have certain gear, when the whole thread went into an uproar when I pointed out that the NPC swordsage has limited wealth?
I mean, you guys didn't even bother to see if the swordsage could still do anything. You just started complaining. You complain that Lockdown has items, but turn around and complain that your build doesn't have the items he needs.
Archerpwr, this isn't directed at you really, since you actually posted an NPC with NPC wealth. But still, how can someone begrudge the fact that we assume certain items for Lockdown when their entire argument for why he fails against a swordsage seemingly relies on items as well? Someone even said that it's obvious Lockdown will win against NPC's because of that wealth limit.
So, why the double standard?
Further, disregarding items makes this discussion a whole lot more difficult than it already is. How do I know if Lockdown can even hit since I only know his starting strength? How do I know how high his Standstill DC will be if I don't know what magic weapon he'll have? How do I know if he even comes remotely close to surviving an encounter if I can't assume he'll have a competitive AC and competitive saving throws through magic items?
It is utterly pointless. All we could really do is speak even more hypotheticals than we are speaking right now. Well, if Lockdown has a high enough damage, he could theoretically stop someone with Standstill, depending on the reflex save of the enemy, which may or may not be an NPC, if he wins initiative and is within charging distance, and there is no difficult terrain or other obstacles.
We can cut those if's down if we assume certain things. But leaving everything but feats open is just too much to do anything meaningful. At least for me it is.
I made my case, which was only to continue following the RAW, which is the holy grail on these boards (sometimes I guess). As expected, it caused a big stink. I said to continue using PC wealth. It's not a big deal. I'm not as interested in whether a certain build can defeat Lockdown or not. I'm really interested in what can evade his lockdown, or hinder him from pulling it off. From there I can make certain feat choices and item choices, and determine what would be the best way to deal with someone that can evade a lock. And for this, the enemy's wealth doesn't really matter.
Certain mechanics will show up in a game more often than the same exact build, feat choices, items, and spell combos people post here because they know every detail about Lockdown's tactics and shortcomings. I'm interested in those mechanics more than anything else.
Ok. But if you look at pages 74 and 75 of Complete Arcane, they are listed as fighter bonus feats.
Next time use the regular text size and don't bold it ;).
Yeah, I kinda suspected it would get deleted. As for money, I don't mind saying with decent equipment the DC will be in this range. I mind requiring the AMF and boots to be remotely effective.
Against any non-caster, why does he need an AMF?
Even against casters, the AMF does what? Ensure that they don't escape or kill him?
Well, I'm going to try and optimize his AC, Saves, and resistances/immunities as much as possible. But this should always be done for any high-level character to make sure you're not toast in the first round of combat.
And if a caster tries to leave? Let's see, the caster knows he can't cast defensively, so he tries to move away. You hit him with Standstill. Crap. He'll just teleport. You hit him for casting and he teleports away from you. Ok. Depending on how far he went, you can follow him by moving and/or using your own teleportation effect. At the same time, you had him tied up for 1 round, which allows your party members to do whatever it is they do to take him out as well (for instance, the party wizard hitting the enemy wizard with an Antimagic Ray
). And that's assuming the particular caster had a way to leave in the first place. A druid or cleric may not have such an easy time escaping the lock through magic.I don't think the AMF is that important. If anything, I think it really helps your party out a lot more than helping you maintain your lock.
What? You actually posted that on CharOpt? Oh my God.
I can see it now...
DM: Sorry, guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Diplomacy check and you are all his fanatic followers.
DM: Sorry, Guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Bluff check, and you just handed him all your magic items because you believed every word of his story about selling them to generate money for the poor.
DM: Sorry, Guys, this NPC just made a DC 60 Intimadate check, and you all go running like scared little kids.
Party (in chorus): Would you like to play everything else for our characters, too?
---
As noted, your above argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don't care what his DC check is, or if my opposed Sense Motive can't tell if he's lying. As a player, I can do what I like...and I choose to be more careful then not.
===Aelryinth
Considering DC 60 checks are epic level checks and with bluff implants a suggestion as per the spell with no save yes you do act as suggested. If you wish to play that way fine so be it. But you are not playing D&D as it is a role playing game. Acting on any information other than what your character has is metagaming. And that rule holds true even on the CO board.
I';ll point out that if you are in his range when you try to do that move into the ground thing, you provoke an AoO and can't move out of your starting square.
Otherwise, if you move underground, you can't see a thing if you stay there, and you have no line of effect for spells. Moving thru earth as an Earth elemental has the same restriction. If you want to see, you have to expose yourself.
I should have been clearer. I was mentioning ways to go into the lock. I'm not saying creatures using those tricks will win against the Lock, who has a strong offense, but I'm pointing out the tricks I can come up with. Y'know, to try and make the Lock better.
See, I don't think the AMF is needed, and I'm surprised that several people here do.
I still think it is, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Against any non-caster, why does he need an AMF?
Not sure how strict you're definition of "casters", but he needs it against gishes too.
Even against casters, the AMF does what? Ensure that they don't escape or kill him?
Well, I'm going to try and optimize his AC, Saves, and resistances/immunities as much as possible. But this should always be done for any high-level character to make sure you're not toast in the first round of combat.
A laudable goal.
And if a caster tries to leave? Let's see, the caster knows he can't cast defensively, so he tries to move away. You hit him with Standstill. Crap. He'll just teleport. You hit him for casting and he teleports away from you. Ok. Depending on how far he went, you can follow him by moving and/or using your own teleportation effect. At the same time, you had him tied up for 1 round, which allows your party members to do whatever it is they do to take him out as well (for instance, the party wizard hitting the enemy wizard with an Antimagic Ray
Agreed - that's what I was saying earlier about denying the enemies some options.
And that's assuming the particular caster had a way to leave in the first place. A druid or cleric may not have such an easy time escaping the lock through magic.
I don't think the AMF is that important. If anything, I think it really helps your party out a lot more than helping you maintain your lock.
Druid: if he wants to escape, and the environment is right, he could try to wildshape into an Earth Elemental and use Earth Glide - but he has to soak up a Ref save... So probably not : an Air Elemental is better. He can use Whirlwind, which does not cause AoOs and obscures vision - he can free himself and other people from the lock and possibly catch some of the Lock's companions at the same time, if they were flying nearby.
Cleric: I'm not a cleric-y person. Pass. ;)
No, not really. Here's what I had in a level 26 game (what I "needed")
Fortification armor
Proof against transmutation shield
Shadowstriking weapons (wasted money)
Headband of Int
Handy Haversack
Inherent bonuses to all my stats (I had spare gold)
Blessed Book
Here's what I needed:
Ring of evasion
All told my level 26 only needed 5ish items totalling less than level 20 character wealth to be effective. It's called being a gish with a decent build. I was able to just throw away money on a +5 inherent bonus to cha because I didn't need much wealth to be effective.
That gear looks suspiciously like it does what I just described (covering your weaknesses and bolstering your strengths),. You aren't seriously trying to argue that a high-level character is just as effective with items as without, are you?
Has this already been addressed, or is the build getting this ability some way I'm just not seeing?
Edit: Another problem I'm seeing... I don't see anything in Thicket of Blades OR Stand Still that allows a character to make more than 1 AoO per character that moves.
SRD, Attack of Opportunity section:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
I can see the Trip attempts being a fairly effective method for knocking a spellcaster prone (and thus forcing him to either use Tumble to stand up as a free action or use his remaining move action to stand up), but in an AMF, unless that bab-to-trip-attempts thing is legit, you've only got a +7 modifier to trip... Assuming a medium spellcaster with 10 strength, that's roughly a 21% chance the mage is left untripped, and capable of using his move action (which, again, as far as I can tell, won't provoke another AoO) to get out of the AMF field, out of your threatened range, and in the clear - either for a quickened escape route, or an activated contingency, or some other swift-action effect that could turn the tide of battle.
I don't see Improved Trip nor Knockdown in the original build, either... so are you using that single AoO you get when the spellcaster attempts to move to trip (instead of a normal attack action) or to Stand Still (instead of a normal attack action)? They could potentially replace WF, WSpec, and Melee Weapon Master (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knockdown), but that still leaves the mage a small chance of not being tripped, and thus not being confined to that devestating AMF field.
My utmost apologies if this has already been answered in the 23 pages already posted. Sometimes I'm up for long reads, but not tonight.
The trip modifier is wrong - that was already pointed out.
Tripping is nice but this is a first a concept using Stand Still.
And if a caster tries to leave? Let's see, the caster knows he can't cast defensively, so he tries to move away. You hit him with Standstill. Crap. He'll just teleport. You hit him for casting and he teleports away from you. Ok. Depending on how far he went, you can follow him by moving and/or using your own teleportation effect. At the same time, you had him tied up for 1 round, which allows your party members to do whatever it is they do to take him out as well (for instance, the party wizard hitting the enemy wizard with an Antimagic Ray
If the big deal is that a caster could teleport, just hit him with a binding weapon. No save, no teleport, likely a wasted action trying.
Without the AMF you definitely want the feat to get AoOs on people with cover, though.
Assume lockdown does his thing wins initiative, and gets our druid in the AMF and is right next to him and has Overpowering Assault running as the tactics prescribe.
Our druid now makes a full attack on lockdown (3 attacks) and then attempts a 5' step. Lockdown applies the fully beatdown as prescribed through both R. Gambit and then stand-stilling the 5' step.
At this point, lockdown is out of AoO, and at least 1 hit short of killing the druid by the OP's own numbers (5 overpower hits to kill an "average" druid). Our animal companion moves over unimpeded, smacks lockdown and either kills him outright (in the case of a dire tiger) or mauls him and starts a grapple (dire polar bear). {Our dire polar bear is at +39 to grapples and will get to make 3 attempts, basically assuring a successful grapple and taking away all of lockdown's AoO.} In the case of an elemental, the druid doesn't need to do anything since the elemental would be large enough to grapple the druid and simply deposit him outside the AMF anyways.
That's in the ideal situation for lockdown, and it still fails at what it's trying to do against a basically unskilled, featless druid with a only a stick that's it's supposed to beat.
EDIT: Another question. If Lockdown sees more than one enemy, wouldn't it be wise to reserve his AoO's? His intent is to lock everyone down. He only needs one AoO against each enemy to use Standstill.
Just something else I thought I'd point out:
Assume lockdown does his thing wins initiative, and gets our druid in the AMF and is right next to him and has Overpowering Assault running as the tactics prescribe.
Our druid now makes a full attack on lockdown (3 attacks) and then attempts a 5' step. Lockdown applies the fully beatdown as prescribed through both R. Gambit and then stand-stilling the 5' step.
At this point, lockdown is out of AoO, and at least 1 hit short of killing the druid by the OP's own numbers (5 overpower hits to kill an "average" druid). Our animal companion moves over unimpeded, smacks lockdown and either kills him outright (in the case of a dire tiger) or mauls him and starts a grapple (dire polar bear). {Our dire polar bear is at +39 to grapples and will get to make 3 attempts, basically assuring a successful grapple and taking away all of lockdown's AoO.} In the case of an elemental, the druid doesn't need to do anything since the elemental would be large enough to grapple the druid and simply deposit him outside the AMF anyways.
That's in the ideal situation for lockdown, and it still fails at what it's trying to do against a basically unskilled, featless druid with a only a stick that's it's supposed to beat.
Answer 1: The druid does not survive 3 AoOs because the lockdown declares power attack of 20 on the druid crappy AC (dumped Dex, right? The lockdown has still a +16 to hit). The druid takes 180 hp of damage even without OA and explodes (in the AMF a druid has about 155 hp even with Con 16).
Answer 2: The lockdown does not bother to use the 3rd attack (why 3 attacks? Just Dex 14? I thought it was 18 through inherents). If the druid moves, he uses it. If the animal companion is around, he only hits the druid once, saving the other attacks to Standstill him and Standstill the animal if it comes close. Then he kills the druid when his turn arrive with a full attack with power attack, turning the animal companion into a weak kitten.
Both tactics have about a 90% of working, I think.
Why is Lockdown right next to the druid to allow him a full attack?
The tactic is simple. Click your heels, activate haste, and perform a move up next to them. RIGHT next to them…over top of them is nice. Activate your AM field via the torc.
Because the OP says to do so as part of his "perfect" lockdown. I could postulate from there for the reasoning, but meh.
How much HP does this druid have that he can survive this onslaught?
Druid/20 with 18 Con inherent has 180 hp or so. You’ll be doing 42 pts a hit, so he’s dead in five rounds, faster if he actually gets up or tries moving away (one round less per swing you get at him. Be faster if you had Power Attack.)
Why would Lockdown Standstill the 5' step if the Druid is right next to him (as you say) and won't be exiting the AMF?
Because then something else could get in the way, and to not have a single bad roll (or lucky roll for the druid) break the lockdown and let the druid out.
That would increase it to 4 attacks at double damage (actually 5 including the initial Overwhelming Assault).
Ah, true the activation does give an attack too. I will note that I already assumed 4 attacks. Well, I suppose I might have to not give lockdown every possible advantage in this scenario then, or give the druid some gear.
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I personally would consider 18 con a bit low for a 20th druid, but that's a personal opinion. I would honestly expect a druid to end up seeking parity between wisdom and con pre-epic levels. Even with the 18 con, the OP's numbers are off and the druid should have 173 hp, not 180, but it doesn't change the outcome (5 overpower hits = dead)
Honestly I would probably expect a wisdom of 22 (15 base+3 levels +4 inherent) and a con of 20 (14+2 levels +4 inherent). Which of those would be the 22 would be based mostly on what the player was going to do. Higher wisdom if more casting, higher con if more wildshaping.
Honestly I would probably expect a wisdom of 22 (15 base+3 levels +4 inherent) and a con of 20 (14+2 levels +4 inherent). Which of those would be the 22 would be based mostly on what the player was going to do. Higher wisdom if more casting, higher con if more wildshaping.
Aelryinth latest version of the lockdown (post 1) has 14 Con and 16 Dex in the AMF. That means 154 hp and 4 AoOs.
Answer 1: The druid does not survive 3 AoOs because the lockdown declares power attack of 20 on the druid crappy AC (dumped Dex, right? The lockdown has still a +16 to hit). The druid takes 180 hp of damage even without OA and explodes (in the AMF a druid has about 155 hp even with Con 16).
Lockdown does not have power attack. If you want to say he could, I'll counter with the druid has spring attack and we'll both look stupid as we just keep adding more stuff on.
Please keep your 'solutions' to what was actually presented and not 'what I could do' because that's an infinite list of things.
Answer 2: The lockdown does not bother to use the 3rd attack (why 3 attacks? Just Dex 14? I thought it was 18 through inherents).
He only has a dex of 16 in the AMF.
If the druid moves, he uses it. If the animal companion is around, he only hits the druid once, saving the other attacks to Standstill him and Standstill the animal if it comes close. Then he kills the druid when his turn arrive with a full attack with power attack, turning the animal companion into a weak kitten.
Depends on the companion. Keep in mind that lockdown doesn't get AoO if he's next to the druid since the druid provides soft cover for the companion. Even then if we do assume that the Dire Tiger remains locked down, that doesn't work on the Dire Polar Bear (natural 10' reach) or the Air Elemental.
Oh, also you may not have noticed, but lockdown doesn't have power attack.
But still the Dire Polar Bear is an even worse opponent for lockdown than the Dire Tiger. The Dire Polar bear will get 3 attacks, hitting with all of them, and provoking 3 grapple attempts and he doesn't have to move, and can do it from behind the softcover the druid provides, thus avoiding AoO.
Lockdown has a choice of not responding, and sucking up 4d6+3d8+40 damage (67 average before anything else) and having to make 3 grapple checks against +39, and losing all his AoO due to being grappled. Or, if he can use Close Quarters Fighting to get the damage bonus on his grapple checks, only use up 3 of his 4 AoO for the round, which means that he can't stop the druid from leaving with a double move. At that point he's going to suck up another attack and grapple check from the critter when he moves to catch up with the druid, and will be unable to overpower.
Both tactics have about a 90% of working, I think.
I would suggest heavily rethinking that statement.
Also, medium critters cannot give cover to larger critters.
Finally, if the lockdown moved to, or allowed a large creature without reach (particularly an AC) to move within 5' of himself, he deserves to be eaten and have 'natural selection' engraved on his tombstone.
EDIT: Another question. If Lockdown sees more than one enemy, wouldn't it be wise to reserve his AoO's? His intent is to lock everyone down. He only needs one AoO against each enemy to use Standstill.
Well, yes and no. It's safe to assume he'll need at least 2 AoO to keep someone next to him so he's got to save at least that many for a target. That means he has 2 AoO to play with. As I point out above, problems with grappling creatures will almost require AoO to be used up against them to avoid the grapple and thus rendering lockdown impotent. There's also the matter of cover to consider, and who or what you think it likely to do things.
Hindsight it's easy to see this, but if the OP had carried out his "plan" in an actually game, the druid would probably have gotten out.
Not terribly important, but a level 20 fighter with 14 Con should probably have 154 hp (12+7.5*19) not 134 (that would be with Con 12).
Aelryinth latest version of the lockdown (post 1) has 14 Con and 16 Dex in the AMF. That means 154 hp and 4 AoOs.
Ah, correct. I added the wrong con mod. Apologies. A minor point though, the extra 20 hp would be inconsequential to the optimized Dire Tiger version as well. I am accounting for all the AoO though (3 on the druid for attacking, 1 to keep him in place for tactical reasons). If the druid delays and the critter goes first, then we get back to the problem of not enough AoO to maintain the lockdown since at least 2 are needed to keep the druid in place given the presented tactics.
Both our tiger and bear can provoke 3 grapples any of which can negate lockdown's control, so he needs to burn up AoO on them for the grapple mod bonus.
Neither dire tigers or dire bears (not sure about dire polar bears) have reach, they can't attack using soft cover from anything between them and a target since there can't be anything.
Well, I never mentioned Dire Bears, so I fail to see why you're bringing them up. Dire Polar Bears do indeed have 10' reach.
Also, medium critters cannot give cover to larger critters.
Can you provide a cite for this? I don't see it in the SRD nor with a quick look over the FAQ.
Finally, if the lockdown moved to, or allowed a large creature without reach (particularly an AC) to move within 5' of himself, he deserves to be eaten and have 'natural selection' engraved on his tombstone.
Which I though was the whole point of pointing out the error with the presented tactics? This isn't something new I'm pointing out, I've pointed it out before. I think a rewrite of the original post in it's entirety is probably very much in order at this point in time.
Maybe if there was some more companion optimization going on cause I think you're on the right track with that line of thinking Previn. How you fight with the druid is a big deal ... hmm...
;)
Ah, correct. I added the wrong con mod. Apologies. A minor point though, the extra 20 hp would be inconsequential to the optimized Dire Tiger version as well. I am accounting for all the AoO though (3 on the druid for attacking, 1 to keep him in place for tactical reasons). If the druid delays and the critter goes first, then we get back to the problem of not enough AoO to maintain the lockdown since at least 2 are needed to keep the druid in place given the presented tactics.
Both our tiger and bear can provoke 3 grapples any of which can negate lockdown's control, so he needs to burn up AoO on them for the grapple mod bonus.
Yeah, the extra 20 hps are not very interesting. But still:
When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Means that movement is completely negated with a single Stand Still, not two.
The dire tiger still has no reach and should never get within 5' of the lockdown. The dire polar bear, on the other hand, it is huge and a real threat for lockdown with its 10' reach (at least Aelryinth's generic one, I think Khan's big guy would crush it). Still, if using OA the grapple checks of the lockdown are modified with a +42. And he still has a spare AoO to prevent the druid from leaving. Edit: two spare AoOs, the bear cannot grapple with the bite.
No power attack is a major flaw in the build, though. Aelryinth should put it up there since it is probably the best warrior feat in the whole game.
(That said, I think a huge AC is a bad pick for any druid. And ultimately I find the dire polar bear far less stylish than a T-Rex. Also, I couldn't find the dire polar bear since it was cunningly hidden in Frostburn, a rather obscure and little used supplement).
Well, yes and no. It's safe to assume he'll need at least 2 AoO to keep someone next to him so he's got to save at least that many for a target.
I'm not sure why we'd assume this.
If someone approaches Lockdown to attack him, they have used a move action and he has stopped them from reaching him to attack. Now, they can either move towards him (which doesn't matter because on his turn he can move back), use some standard action, or move away (which doesn't matter because they have used all of their actions for the round and he can simply move to threaten them on his turn).
That means he has 2 AoO to play with. As I point out above, problems with grappling creatures will almost require AoO to be used up against them to avoid the grapple and thus rendering lockdown impotent.
Standstill stops a creature from getting a grapple attempt in the first place.
There's also the matter of cover to consider, and who or what you think it likely to do things.
I mentioned Precise Swing as an option to get around anything less than total cover.
Ah, correct. I added the wrong con mod. Apologies. A minor point though, the extra 20 hp would be inconsequential to the optimized Dire Tiger version as well. I am accounting for all the AoO though (3 on the druid for attacking, 1 to keep him in place for tactical reasons). If the druid delays and the critter goes first, then we get back to the problem of not enough AoO to maintain the lockdown since at least 2 are needed to keep the druid in place given the presented tactics.
I still see no reason to assume Lockdown will respond to each of the druid's attacks with an AoO. Especially when there is a fierce, nasty tiger or bear looming right behind the druid.
As far as the tiger is concerned, his pouncing requires charging, which Lockdown is set against.
Some of the changes I have suggested would take care of this situation. Knockback would keep the tiger away when it charges. The Dust of Negation would allow Lockdown to keep his buffs, making him significantly tougher (killing the druid easier and making the animal companion a non-issue in the process), and maintaining his higher dexterity and higher number of AoO's. Being a Half-Ogre would give Lockdown a grapple modifier of +34 before his Close-Quarters Fighting kicks in, meaning the Dire Polar Bear will have a tough time grappling him, espeially after Lockdown bats him away with Knockback.
When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Means that movement is completely negated with a single Stand Still, not two.
Nope, takes 2. "As if" doesn't mean you're prevented from taking other moves because it doesn't actually use up your moves. You simply stop as if you couldn't move any more. You're free to start moving again if able, and suck up more Standstills.
The dire tiger still has no reach and should never get within 5' of the lockdown. The dire polar bear, on the other hand, it is huge and a real threat for lockdown with its 10' reach (at least Aelryinth's generic one, I think Khan's big guy would crush it). Still, if using OA the grapple checks of the lockdown are modified with a +42. And he still has a spare AoO to prevent the druid from leaving.
No, he really doesn't have a spare AoO since standstill doesn't take away your move actions. I also like how you're now bringing in the optional rules from OA.
As for the Dire Tiger never getting to within 5', did you read my earlier statement about the druid attacking and eating up all the AoO so said companion had free reign?
No power attack is a major flaw in the build, though. Aelryinth should put it up there since it is probably the best warrior feat in the whole game.Depends.(That said, I think a huge AC is a bad pick for any druid. And ultimately I find the dire polar bear far less stylish than a T-Rex. Also, I couldn't find the dire polar bear since it was cunningly hidden in Frostburn, a rather obscure and little used supplement).
Actually, if you check the PHB2, which lockdown draws very heavily from, you'll find it in there as a choice, so it's not really obscure.
And while it may be less stylish than the T-rex as a large creature, the T-rex is a poor choice compared to the Dire Polar Bear, having slower movement and no swim speed, fewer HP, worse AC, less damage both in full and single attacks and worse saves.
No, he really doesn't have a spare AoO since standstill doesn't take away your move actions.
Assuming Lockdown foolishly uses all of his AoO's with Robilar's.
I'd like to note that the Bracers of Opportunity that I suggested would allow him another AoO
.I also like how you're now bringing in the optional rules from OA.
I believe he means the damage on the AoO from CQF is modified by the 42 damage from OA (Overwhelming Attack).
I'm not sure why we'd assume this.
We assume this given that lockdown is preventing someone from moving away that is in the lockdown.
If someone approaches Lockdown to attack him, they have used a move action and he has stopped them from reaching him to attack. Now, they can either move towards him (which doesn't matter because on his turn he can move back), use some standard action, or move away (which doesn't matter because they have used all of their actions for the round and he can simply move to threaten them on his turn).
Except this has nothing to with what I'm talking about, i.e.e you already have the lock in place and wish to maintain it reliably.
Standstill stops a creature from getting a grapple attempt in the first place.
Very , very wrong. It stops a creature without equivalent reach from starting a grapple. You're making the same mistake the OP did.
I mentioned Precise Swing as an option to get around anything less than total cover.
Have you presented a build that uses it? Has the OP changed his build to include it? Have I refered to anything other then the lockdown as presented?
I still see no reason to assume Lockdown will respond to each of the druid's attacks with an AoO. Especially when there is a fierce, nasty tiger or bear looming right behind the druid.
Because you don't know what else the druid will be doing? Because the Polar Bear can reach you anyways so saving attacks to lock it down is pointless?
As far as the tiger is concerned, his pouncing requires charging, which Lockdown is set against.
Not as presented it isn't, and not if I get it to use all of it's AoO. Oh, yes... it 'could' be, but as I pointed out above, that's an infinite bag that we can keep going into.
Some of the changes I have suggested would take care of this situation. Knockback would keep the tiger away when it charges. The Dust of Negation would allow Lockdown to keep his buffs, making him significantly tougher (killing the druid easier and making the animal companion a non-issue in the process), and maintaining his higher dexterity and higher number of AoO's. Being a Half-Ogre would give Lockdown a grapple modifier of +34 before his Close-Quarters Fighting kicks in, meaning the Dire Polar Bear will have a tough time grappling him, espeially after Lockdown bats him away with Knockback.
Well, as I stated earlier, I have no access to Dust of Negation and you've not provided any relevant information that I've seen on it, so I can't address that. As well you haven't presented a build that I've seen, just lots of "I would do this" statements.
As for the Dire Polar Bear having a tough time, it's still got a +5 grapple mod above yours even if you do get up to +34 base, before Close-Quarters Fighting, which is not a difficult win (about a 75% chance to win in 3 attempts?) But using CQFe means you're falling into the trap of allowing all your AoO to be used up again, just from a different perspective.
Can you provide a cite for this? I don't see it in the SRD nor with a quick look over the FAQ.
I think so:
Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
PHB page 151. You can always draw the line from a corner in your square to a corner in the big critter square that does not go through the smaller critter square. Check it in a map if you doubt it.
Nope, takes 2. "As if" doesn't mean you're prevented from taking other moves because it doesn't actually use up your moves. You simply stop as if you couldn't move any more. You're free to start moving again if able, and suck up more Standstills.
The fact the feat states "move actions" and not "move action" makes me believe Standstill negates all movement with a single AoO.
No, he really doesn't have a spare AoO since standstill doesn't take away your move actions. I also like how you're now bringing in the optional rules from OA.
Yes, it does.
Plus he has only to use CQF against the bear claws. That is just 2 attacks and two AoOs. Leaving the lockdown two more.
As for the Dire Tiger never getting to within 5', did you read my earlier statement about the druid attacking and eating up all the AoO so said companion had free reign?
Only if the lockdown is dumb enough to spend all the AoOs in the druid when the tiger is still around. Not likely. If he does, he deserves to die.
Very , very wrong. It stops a creature without equivalent reach from starting a grapple. You're making the same mistake the OP did.
No I'm not. I'm assuming a 20' reach.
Have you presented a build that uses it? Has the OP changed his build to include it? Have I refered to anything other then the lockdown as presented?
I've stated my intentions. You stated you've already mentioned all of this. I'm not sure why you feel like going over the same stuff over and over again. I feel like moving forward.
But to answer one of your questions, no, I haven't made a build that uses it yet. I'm simply gathering information at this point. I may not have room for it, or I may find some other way to get around cover. Who knows?
Because you don't know what else the druid will be doing?
The druid is swinging his weapon at you. You don't have to fight back.
You know this much. He's in an AMF. He can't transform and he can't cast spells. Your intent is to stop him and his menacing animal from reaching your party members. To do that, you need AoO's. I think Lockdown would figure it out.
Because the Polar Bear can reach you anyways so saving attacks to lock it down is pointless?
So obviously a better reach is needed. Hence why I'm assuming a large race.
Not as presented it isn't, and not if I get it to use all of it's AoO. Oh, yes... it 'could' be, but as I pointed out above, that's an infinite bag that we can keep going into.
He has steadfast boots. He is always set against a charge. This is not an 'if' statement. It's an absolute. It's not an AoO. It's a readied action.
Well, as I stated earlier, I have no access to Dust of Negation and you've not provided any relevant information that I've seen on it, so I can't address that. As well you haven't presented a build that I've seen, just lots of "I would do this" statements.
Previn, retract the claws. When I'm near my books, I'll post up the information. It's pretty easy though. You throw the dust in a square and a 10' radius Antimagic Field radiates for 2 minutes.
You're right, I haven't presented a build, and you haven't done anything constructive. What's your point?
As for the Dire Polar Bear having a tough time, it's still got a +5 grapple mod above yours even if you do get up to +34 base, before Close-Quarters Fighting, which is not a difficult win (about a 75% chance to win in 3 attempts?) But using CQFe means you're falling into the trap of allowing all your AoO to be used up again, just from a different perspective.
I'm not so much allowing my AoO to be used up as I am stopping myself from being grappled. Either way, you really have no chance of grappling Lockdown if the attack hits. Assuming an average damage of 32 (7 base large chain, 15 strength two-handed, 6 weapon feats, 4 magic weapon), I'll have an opposed check of +66. Even if Lockdown rolls a 1 and the bear rolls a 20, the grapple attempt fails. But since you assumed that Lockdown had used Overwhelming Attack, the average damage would actually be 64 and the opposed grapple check would be +98.
If I'm large, the bear can't even reach to begin with. If I have Knockback, only one attempt is made. These are all things to consider if Lockdown will be revised.
I think so:
Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
PHB page 151. You can always draw the line from a corner in your square to a corner in the big critter square that does not go through the smaller critter square. Check it in a map if you doubt it.
Ok, that is very different what you earlier claimed, but still doesn't work.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Definitely Precise Swing is needed in the lockdown build. I would drop Defensive Sweep and Grater Specialization for that and Power Attack. Also, I would take both feats earlier.
The fact the feat states "move actions" and not "move action" makes me believe Standstill negates all movement with a single AoO.
Again, "as if" they not actually used up.
I further submit that "move actions" refers specifically the general action type "move actions" not the specific 'move action,' which makes more sense anyways.
Yes, it does.
Plus he has only to use CQF against the bear claws. That is just 2 attacks and two AoOs. Leaving the lockdown two more.
The Dire Polar bear has 3 attacks with reach, 2 claws and a bite. Unless you can point out why one of them wouldn't have reach?
Only if the lockdown is dumb enough to spend all the AoOs in the druid when the tiger is still around. Not likely. If he does, he deserves to die.
The irony has me speechless (not a jab at you, but to the OP).
Khan, unless you intend to post a build, can we stop talking about theoretical "I would do this and have this?" How am I to know you're talking about 20' reach? How do I know you have magic item A or B? How do you know that I couldn't adjust the tactics based on what you would have/do? How can I present or argue against such a thing any more than one can point to the wind and debate where it will blow from next?
The Dire Polar bear has 3 attacks with reach, 2 claws and a bite. Unless you can point out why one of them wouldn't have reach?
Reach is irrelevant, there is not point in wasting an AoO in an attack that is no threat. The bite is no threat because the bear can't grapple with the bite.
Reach is irrelevant, there is not point in wasting an AoO in an attack that is no threat. The bite is no threat because the bear can't grapple with the bite.
Ah, close but incorrect. It can grapple with the bite, it just doesn't get the benefit of improved grab. In this case it would drop the damage slightly, but eating up the AoO or succeeding at a grapple is better than 3d8+8 damage anyways.
That gear looks suspiciously like it does what I just described (covering your weaknesses and bolstering your strengths),. You aren't seriously trying to argue that a high-level character is just as effective with items as without, are you?
The cost of said gear was less than 20th level character wealth. This is 6 levels into epic where I had well over 2 million gp to play with. The fortification armor was optional (I can get immunity to crits with spells when I need to), the shadow striking weapons were a waste of money, and the headband of int was optional as well. It just saved me a persisted spell. That leaves proof against transmutation, which is pretty situational and a haversack which is just an excuse not to keep track of encumbrance. The one item I would have depended on I didn't even have and could be afforded well over ten levels ago. The equipment was not any major part of the build. It was a convenience.
Khan, unless you intend to post a build, can we stop talking about theoretical "I would do this and have this?" How am I to know you're talking about 20' reach? How do I know you have magic item A or B? How do you know that I couldn't adjust the tactics based on what you would have/do? How can I present or argue against such a thing any more than one can point to the wind and debate where it will blow from next?
You can adjust your tactics after I present a counter to yours. This is an evolutionary process. This is not cops and robbers as you put it. I am not beating you. I am accepting your threat to the build and merely finding some way around it. You are as much a part of the process as I am. I see no reason to simply hammer away at the same build over and over again. If after 25 pages people aren't aware of everything you've already posted, I doubt rehashing it will do any good.
I plan on providing options for whatever you posit, and putting together a new build to be as solid a lockdown as possible. If you're not interested, simply ignore me. But this is not about being right, or proving you wrong. This is just about making the build better.
The cost of said gear was less than 20th level character wealth. This is 6 levels into epic where I had well over 2 million gp to play with. The fortification armor was optional (I can get immunity to crits with spells when I need to), the shadow striking weapons were a waste of money, and the headband of int was optional as well. It just saved me a persisted spell. That leaves proof against transmutation, which is pretty situational and a haversack which is just an excuse not to keep track of encumbrance. The one item I would have depended on I didn't even have and could be afforded well over ten levels ago. The equipment was not any major part of the build. It was a convenience.
You didn't answer his question.
You didn't answer his question.
Yes I was covering my weaknesses. No class that I know of grants immunity to crits without huge investments. Same goes for imunity to transmutation. The ring of evasion was one weak spot, and very cheap at that level. Lockdown assumes a *bunch* of specific items. My build had one weakness that was easily covered up with 40k gp. Lockdown ran out of gold. I'm saying that good builds have the money as a bonus; not relying on it.
So, I'm just confused how you managed to get to epic levels without relying on items.
We can all optimize enemies and encounters. In fact, you do it to defeat Lockdown.
So, I'm just confused how you managed to get to epic levels without relying on items.
Gish.
What does any of that mean to the Gates, Time Stops, Uber Animal Companions, and Foresight/Celerities that people are throwing at Lockdown around here?
Wouldn't many of the same tactics used against him fare pretty well against a gish as well?
Are you suggesting that none of the optimized characters on this board could stop your itemless gish before he got to level 26?
Means what? Lower caster level, fewer spells known and prepared each day? Reliance on buffing in combat to be decent at combat?
What does any of that mean to the Gates, Time Stops, Uber Animal Companions, and Foresight/Celerities that people are throwing at Lockdown around here?
Wouldn't many of the same tactics used against him fare pretty well against a gish as well?
Are you suggesting that none of the optimized characters on this board could stop your itemless gish before he got to level 26?
No, I'm suggesting that gishes can buff themselves. Gishes are among the least item dependant types of builds out there.
But basically, you're telling me that the same casters that can supposedly kill Lockdown in 1 round could not kill your gish in 1 round?
Can I know your build? I am perplexed.
But basically, you're telling me that the same casters that can supposedly kill Lockdown in 1 round could not kill your gish in 1 round?
Not exactly. I'm not even referring to one shot casters. I'm referring to the fact that PCs can be built that don't depend upon wealth for everything.
The build:
Wiz 6/ SB 10/ AC 4/ Swiftblade +4
Examples:
Cloak of resistance => superior resistance
Con+Str enhancers => Bite of the werebear
Natural armor => polymorph + dragon skin
deflection => scintellating scales
Mindblank item => actual mindblank
Extra actions => I'm a swiftblade
Miss chance => still a swiftblade
Movement => I'm a wizard. Which spell?
+5 Weapon=> greater magic weapon
Need I go on why gishes don't rely on equipment as much as other builds? The fact that you ran out of wealth kinda exemplifies how fighter isn't providing enough for you.
archerpwr did a good job in showing why gishes don't need to rely on specific magic items. The money saved can go towards lots of other things, like making yourself stronger rather than shoring up your weaknesses.
Not exactly. I'm not even referring to one shot casters. I'm referring to the fact that PCs can be built that don't depend upon wealth for everything.
I see a spell to replace items. So, you're referring to the fact that *casters* can be built to not depend upon wealth for everything.
Even still, I don't see how those spell buffs do anything against optimized casters.
Need I go on why gishes don't rely on equipment as much as other builds?
No. But could you explain why you were never hit with a Greater Dispel. Or an MD. Or an Antimagic Ray. Or a Gate. Or a Time Stop/Gate x4. I'm sure if you posted your build up and claimed it could make it to epic level without items, you'd get a lot of examples to the contrary.
Unless you played through experiences similar to the acid tests people are putting Lockdown through, I fail to see how your comparison is relevant. Not only is Lockdown not a caster, but your character would still die to high level optimized casters.
The fact that you ran out of wealth kinda exemplifies how fighter isn't providing enough for you.
No. It just shows I wanted more than I had the money to afford.
stuff
I think I see your point. It was a caster. Casters as a rule rely less on items. You're agreeing with me on that. Noncasters just need more money to keep up because casters are overpowered. Do I have it right?
Not exactly. I'm not even referring to one shot casters. I'm referring to the fact that PCs can be built that don't depend upon wealth for everything.
The build:
Wiz 6/ SB 10/ AC 4/ Swiftblade +4
Examples:
Cloak of resistance => superior resistance
Con+Str enhancers => Bite of the werebear
Natural armor => polymorph + dragon skin
deflection => scintellating scales
Mindblank item => actual mindblank
Extra actions => I'm a swiftblade
Miss chance => still a swiftblade
Movement => I'm a wizard. Which spell?
+5 Weapon=> greater magic weapon
Need I go on why gishes don't rely on equipment as much as other builds? The fact that you ran out of wealth kinda exemplifies how fighter isn't providing enough for you.
Or you could just grab some equipment and not need to spend 3-4 rounds buffing every fight.
Or you could just grab some equipment and not need to spend 3-4 rounds buffing every fight.
Or he can effectively cast time stop as a free action and do all the buffing he wants because he's a swiftblade, not to mention swift spells he can cast via quicken spell and abjurant champion.
Or he can effectively cast time stop as a free action and do all the buffing he wants because he's a swiftblade, not to mention swift spells he can cast via quicken spell and abjurant champion.
Ah, burning your high-level spells to get effects you could easily get with the wealth you're not using. Always a good plan.
Or you could just grab some equipment and not need to spend 3-4 rounds buffing every fight.
At caster level 18(?) as the build seems to be:
Mind Blank: 24 hours duration
Superior Resistance: 24 hours duration
Going with PAO over plan poly: 12 hours to permanent (typically more than 24 hours)
Scintellating Scales: 18 minutes
Greater Magic Weapon: 18 hours
Really it's 1 round or less for the listed buffs, hence why lockdown is going with the AMF rather than trying to over come all the buffs since they're probably already running.
Ah, burning your high-level spells to get effects you could easily get with the wealth you're not using. Always a good plan.
Level 7 is not that high. I need two rounds to buff max. If I need to I can have effectively 20-something spells come up with that ruitine. Actually did it once too.
Level 7 is not that high. I need two rounds to buff max.
Cool, where'd you get the 7th level version of time stop?
If I need to I can have effectively 20-something spells come up with that ruitine. Actually did it once too.
And then you pounced and did 50 jillion damage, which got mitigated down to some significantly less impressive amount, and then you got owned by an Iron Colossus because it has an AMF. I know this story.
Cool, where'd you get the 7th level version of time stop?
And then you pounced and did 50 jillion damage, which got mitigated down to some significantly less impressive amount, and then you got owned by an Iron Colossus because it has an AMF. I know this story.
Why don't you go read the Swiftblade class and then come back....
I think I see your point. It was a caster. Casters as a rule rely less on items. You're agreeing with me on that. Noncasters just need more money to keep up because casters are overpowered. Do I have it right?
Part of it, yes.
Certainly this doesn't extend to *all* PC's, since a rogue, paladin, ranger, barbarian, monk, and even a bard couldn't really pull this off. Even a sorcerer might have trouble since he has limited spells known.
My other point though is that we're making Lockdown jump through a lot of hoops here to consider him an effective build. We're assuming that casters kill people insta-quick in round 1. If you didn't go through these same sorts of tribulations, if you weren't fighting enemies that were specifically built with your weaknesses and tactics in mind, then my point is that the comparison isn't 100% relevant.
I won't make the mistake of saying that it's impossible to make it to epic level the way you did (I've made similar claims before and have paid the price). But since we seem to assume any sort of enemy in these theoretical discussions, and they are often of the sort that can pinpoint your failings, I think your build might have had a bit more trouble if we swapped it with Lockdown.
Also... I really wish I could play a build into epic
. And, is the swiftblade in a book? I don't think it's in any of the ones I have (I'm almost positive it isn't). I'll do a search.Why don't you go read the Swiftblade class and then come back....
Yeah, you get one round of time stop. You're trading a swift action for a full-round one. It's nice, but it's also easily replicated by a 10k Belt of Battle, which is chump change at epic levels.
Yeah, you get one round of time stop. You're trading a swift action for a full-round one. It's nice, but it's also easily replicated by a 10k Belt of Battle, which is chump change at epic levels.
Which goes to show just how broken belts of battle are. They are right up there with nightsticks (the stacking kind).
And then you pounced and did 50 jillion damage, which got mitigated down to some significantly less impressive amount, and then you got owned by an Iron Colossus because it has an AMF. I know this story.
Yep. It's called being a spellcaster. I had to get nerfed. Lockdown needs to get buffed with teh ubar itemz to be complete. Just goes to stand behind my original point that fighter isn't providing enough.
Part of it, yes.
Certainly this doesn't extend to *all* PC's, since a rogue, paladin, ranger, barbarian, monk, and even a bard couldn't really pull this off. Even a sorcerer might have trouble since he has limited spells known.
My other point though is that we're making Lockdown jump through a lot of hoops here to consider him an effective build. We're assuming that casters kill people insta-quick in round 1. If you didn't go through these same sorts of tribulations, if you weren't fighting enemies that were specifically built with your weaknesses and tactics in mind, then my point is that the comparison isn't 100% relevant.
I won't make the mistake of saying that it's impossible to make it to epic level the way you did (I've made similar claims before and have paid the price). But since we seem to assume any sort of enemy in these theoretical discussions, and they are often of the sort that can pinpoint your failings, I think your build might have had a bit more trouble if we swapped it with Lockdown.
Also... I really wish I could play a build into epic
I'm not making Lockdown jump through any more hoops than any other CO build. I'm asking it to perform as advertised. I'm not expecting it to prevent one shot casters.
Edit: [thread=953434]Here[/thread] I'm trying to modify lockdown to perform closer to as advertised. I could use your help.
Yep. It's called being a spellcaster. I had to get nerfed. Lockdown needs to get buffed with teh ubar itemz to be complete. Just goes to stand behind my original point that fighter isn't providing enough.
You're forgetting that the fighter is going to get two more rounds of actions then your gish because you had to spend those two rounds just to make yourself combat-effective.
I'll say it again, calling a build weak just because it needs items to be fully effective is stupid, because every build needs items to be fully effective.
You're forgetting that the fighter is going to get two more rounds of actions then your gish because you had to spend those two rounds just to make yourself combat-effective.
I'll say it again, calling a build weak just because it needs items to be fully effective is stupid, because every build needs items to be fully effective.
Have you even read the prestige class? You're starting to sound like aelryinth there.
Part of it, yes.
Certainly this doesn't extend to *all* PC's, since a rogue, paladin, ranger, barbarian, monk, and even a bard couldn't really pull this off. Even a sorcerer might have trouble since he has limited spells known.
My other point though is that we're making Lockdown jump through a lot of hoops here to consider him an effective build. We're assuming that casters kill people insta-quick in round 1. If you didn't go through these same sorts of tribulations, if you weren't fighting enemies that were specifically built with your weaknesses and tactics in mind, then my point is that the comparison isn't 100% relevant.
Yeah, he needs two rounds to buff!
A "real" caster would have killed him 4 times in those two rounds according to the comments I read about the lockdown lifespan. Hell, if he loses the initiative he is dead, and because of nerveskiter + celerity + maximized time stop + 3 gates of 40HD+ outsiders + quickened dimension lock + quickened twinned greater dispel magic hitting him all at once in the first round of combat (like we are told all casters can do) he is dead before he has time to blink. He never even sees the enemy caster, which is polymorphed into a cloaker and astral projecting.
(I am sure I am forgetting 95% of the good tactics and spells all casters use, all the time)
Yeah, he needs two rounds to buff!
A "real" caster would have killed him 4 times in those two rounds according to the comments I read about the lockdown lifespan. Hell, if he loses the initiative he is dead, and because of nerveskiter + celerity + maximized time stop + 3 gates of 40HD outsides + quickened dimension lock + quickened twinned greater dispel magic hitting him all at once in the first round of combat (like we are told all casters can do) he is dead before he has time to blink. He never even sees the enemy caster, which is polymorphed into a cloaker and astral projecting.
(I am sure I am forgetting 95% of the good tactics and spells all casters use, all the time)
I'm pretty sure the caster one shot hyperboles are specifically brought up because of aelryinth's claim of "any caster any time"
Yeah, he needs two rounds to buff!
A "real" caster would have killed him 4 times in those two rounds according to the comments I read about the lockdown lifespan. Hell, if he loses the initiative he is dead, and because of nerveskiter + celerity + maximized time stop + 3 gates of 40HD outsides + quickened dimension lock + quickened twinned greater dispel magic hitting him all at once in the first round of combat (like we are told all casters can do) he is dead before he has time to blink. He never even sees the enemy caster, which is polymorphed into a cloaker and astral projecting.
(I am sure I am forgetting 95% of the good tactics and spells all casters use, all the time)
How about just Greater Rod of Quicken (or other free quicken effect)+ Mage's Disjunction? Say bye bye to those precious magic items.
Also, Drow of the Underdark has a minute/level 1st level spell that provides a +1/3CL bonus to initiative (max +5 or +6).
What does any of that mean to the Gates, Time Stops, Uber Animal Companions, and Foresight/Celerities that people are throwing at Lockdown around here?
Uber Animal Companions? Wow, I didn't realize that adding Warbeast to an animal companion and changing maybe 1 feat made it uber.
I mean, CR wise our Warbeast Dire Polar Bear is 13... maybe 14 or 15 with the druid bonuses. Seems like those are pretty basic companions still.
Uber Animal Companions? Wow, I didn't realize that adding Warbeast to an animal companion and changing maybe 1 feat made it uber.
I mean, CR wise our Warbeast Dire Polar Bear is 13... maybe 14 or 15 with the druid bonuses. Seems like those are pretty basic companions still.
Actually, I have found that adding templates and swapping the feats on ACs is a quick way to overpower them, one of the many reasons Druids can get out of control in a campaign.
I would also voice my agreement with the rules interpretation that the Stand Still feat removes the possibility of any further movement for the round after failing the reflex save the first time. I know the RAW is somewhat vague, but I think that was indeed the intent of the feat.
Uber Animal Companions? Wow, I didn't realize that adding Warbeast to an animal companion and changing maybe 1 feat made it uber.
I mean, CR wise our Warbeast Dire Polar Bear is 13... maybe 14 or 15 with the druid bonuses. Seems like those are pretty basic companions still.
*shrugs*
I'm sure you saw me ask you how the animal companion could kill Lockdown in 1 full attack. I also saw a template, and I don't know of any way to add templates to animal companions. This was also in an AMF.
So, I don't know how an unbuffed, templated animal companion kills a 20th level PC in 1 round. And you didn't bother to explain. So I made an assumption.
Add to that that you posted what seemed to be a reasonably optimized Air Elemental Animal Companion built to mimic the Lockdown and my assumption may not be that unreasonable.
EDIT: My mistake. You did offer an explanation. I just reread it now.
Yeah, he needs two rounds to buff!
A "real" caster would have killed him 4 times in those two rounds according to the comments I read about the lockdown lifespan. Hell, if he loses the initiative he is dead, and because of nerveskiter + celerity + maximized time stop + 3 gates of 40HD+ outsiders + quickened dimension lock + quickened twinned greater dispel magic hitting him all at once in the first round of combat (like we are told all casters can do) he is dead before he has time to blink. He never even sees the enemy caster, which is polymorphed into a cloaker and astral projecting.
(I am sure I am forgetting 95% of the good tactics and spells all casters use, all the time)
Yes. This is essentially the point I was making.
Actually, I have found that adding templates and swapping the feats on ACs is a quick way to overpower them, one of the many reasons Druids can get out of control in a campaign.
Well if all it takes is dropping Run for Power Attack, adding +3 to strength and con and +10 to movement is all it takes to overpower an animal companion (or just +3 to str and con and 10' move bonus in the case of the Dire Polar Bear), what hope does a fighter have?
Warbeast is almost a non-change at the levels that we're talking about, even at lower levels it's not that much. That and I question how many templates you're adding since I can think of 4 total that can be legally added to basic Animal Companions and keep them as companions.
I would also voice my agreement with the rules interpretation that the Stand Still feat removes the possibility of any further movement for the round after failing the reflex save the first time. I know the RAW is somewhat vague, but I think that was indeed the intent of the feat.
I doubt it, otherwise there's no reason to specify "as if." They could just state it as: "If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt using up his move actions for the round."
Of course then there are other problems with that too. What happens with White Raven Tactics? Marshal's ability to grant a move action? What if I manifest Hustle? What if I get an extra standard action, I can't convert that to a move? What if I try to do a move action that isn't a movement? (i.e. you hit me with stand still while I was moving, and I can't draw a weapon now)?
Don't get me wrong, I see how you could make an argument for it, but it really doesn't make any sense unless that's how you want the feat to work. Nothing else about it lends to preventing movement after the stand still stops the initial move unless you take "as if" as "does."
At the very least, I would suggest replacing those 2 psychic warrior levels with 2 feat rogue levels. Mage Slayer eats up your manifester levels, and with rogue levels you still get 2 feats, but also trapfinding, a lot more skills, and evasion.
Outside an AMF, it's providing a +3 shield bonus to AC for a mere 7.5 lbs and 5kish gold. Inside an AMF, it seems to be complete and utter immunity to Lockdown's attacks with a standard action.
I'm sure it took Aelryinth less than a day to post his Lockdown build. Obviously that's not the part of the process that takes up most of our time here.
At the very least, I would suggest replacing those 2 psychic warrior levels with 2 feat rogue levels. Mage Slayer eats up your manifester levels, and with rogue levels you still get 2 feats, but also trapfinding, a lot more skills, and evasion.
I cannot believe I missed that. Thanks!
I'm sure it took Aelryinth less than a day to post his Lockdown build. Obviously that's not the part of the process that takes up most of our time here.
At the very least, I would suggest replacing those 2 psychic warrior levels with 2 feat rogue levels. Mage Slayer eats up your manifester levels, and with rogue levels you still get 2 feats, but also trapfinding, a lot more skills, and evasion.
I am not sure mage slayer eats manifester levels, actually. Do we have confirmation on this point from the Sage or CustServ?
Any chance to sneak Precise Swing in the build? To avoid people with smokesticks escaping (among other things). What about Improved Initiative for that Warblade feat that you have open?
I am not sure mage slayer eats manifester levels, actually. Do we have confirmation on this point from the Sage or CustServ?
Any chance to sneak Precise Swing in the build? To avoid people with smokesticks escaping (among other things). What about Improved Initiative for that Warblade feat that you have open?
What are the prereqs of precise swing again? Improved init is the first level feat.
I'm not going to post this as a "well, clearly ANY caster would utilize this obvious tactic", but I'm curious how deals with a +1 Variable Mithral Githcraft Tower Shield?
Outside an AMF, it's providing a +3 shield bonus to AC for a mere 7.5 lbs and 5kish gold. Inside an AMF, it seems to be complete and utter immunity to Lockdown's attacks with a standard action.
I'm not sure. What exactly does Githcraft do? Also, I thought Tower Shields grant a +4 shield bonus to AC.
What I'm planning for my build is to include sunder as an option. It has obvious uses as far as your basic warrior goes. But against someone with a tower shield, it's a choice between targetting someone else (if there is another target), or destroying the shield and maintaining the lockdown.
To fascilitate sundering but keep the awesomeness of the spiked chain, I plan on using a drow scorpion chain.
@Archerpwr: I think the prerequisite for Precise Swing is simply a +6 BAB.
@Argaud: I'm not sure if Mage Slayer eats up manifester levels, but that's how I usually see it ruled. It may have to be a DM call so to speak.
@Archerpwr: I think the prerequisite for Precise Swing is simply a +6 BAB.
Is it a fighter feat (only way to fit it in), and what is the source so I can cite it? Thank you in advance.
It ignores cover, but not total cover.
It's a fighter feat, that much I remember for sure. It is in the Eberron Campaign Setting.
It ignores cover, but not total cover.
Much thanks. I'll add it in.
Sorry about that.
Or would it need to say "this is an exception to the transparency rule"?
I always wondered about that.
I am personally a proponent of 'full' transparency (what applies to magic applies to psionics and vice-versa) but any rule can cause problem :
- my full transparency : the ML should be harder to increase than the CL ; metapsionic rods shouldn't exist.
- XPH transparency : Mage Slayer is a huge plus to PsyWar ; and manifesting on the defensive is still possible in the threatened area of a Mage Slayer.
- psionics are different : you need to double the defenses of creatures and characters.
Variable (MIC) lets you change a shield into another - so you carry it as a light shield, but it becomes a tower shield again in an AMF.
At least thats my interpretation of those rules. You have transparency of effects but not base mechanics.
I'm assuming transparency for mage slayer and ML.
Which nips any potential balance problems neatly in the bud. If a DM chooses to be more liberal, that's a game choice.
I personally would let Mage Slayer work against Spell-like abilities, too, since they follow all the rules for provoking that casting spells do (just like psionics), but ah well.
===Aelryinth
Which nips any potential balance problems neatly in the bud. If a DM chooses to be more liberal, that's a game choice.
I personally would let Mage Slayer work against Spell-like abilities, too, since they follow all the rules for provoking that casting spells do (just like psionics), but ah well.
===Aelryinth
On further review I ended up dropping psychic warrior. No issue at all now.
Good build, dont let those snooty casters get you down.
Aelryinth--i might have missed this in the OP or earlier in the thread, but how do you get around enemies with spring attack or tumble? Does Thicket of Blades cover both of these?
Good build, dont let those snooty casters get you down.
The concensus is that spring attack ignores thicket of blades, while tumble does not. Somehow he's readying actions against the spring attackers.
The concensus is that spring attack ignores thicket of blades, while tumble does not. Somehow he's readying actions against the spring attackers.
Hold up a sec...
Wouldn't thicket trump spring attack? Where is that coming from? Did someone ask custserve? It seems at odds "any type of movement" I thought it meant to specifically stop spring/ride/flyby attacks.... strange...
Don't know how you ready an action at that point though...
Hold up a sec...
Wouldn't thicket trump spring attack? Where is that coming from? Did someone ask custserve? It seems at odds "any type of movement" I thought it meant to specifically stop spring/ride/flyby attacks.... strange...
Don't know how you ready an action at that point though...
It's a grey area.
Thicket: all movement provokes AoOs
Spring attack: Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity
Tumble:Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so
...
since 4th got announced people just don't care as much
The concensus is that spring attack ignores thicket of blades, while tumble does not. Somehow he's readying actions against the spring attackers.
Why would he have to ready actions against Spring Attackers? He has Robilar's Gambit, doesn't he? Shouldn't that mean that once the Spring Attacker takes a swing at Lockdown (or Lockdown 2.0), Lockdown can hold him in place with Stand Still? Admittedly, he won't have the double damage AoO, so the Stand Still DC isn't as high, but it's still there, isn't it? Or am I missing something?
Why would he have to ready actions against Spring Attackers? He has Robilar's Gambit, doesn't he? Shouldn't that mean that once the Spring Attacker takes a swing at Lockdown (or Lockdown 2.0), Lockdown can hold him in place with Stand Still? Admittedly, he won't have the double damage AoO, so the Stand Still DC isn't as high, but it's still there, isn't it? Or am I missing something?
Not until level 18. My version doesn't get it until level 14 either.
Why would he have to ready actions against Spring Attackers? He has Robilar's Gambit, doesn't he? Shouldn't that mean that once the Spring Attacker takes a swing at Lockdown (or Lockdown 2.0), Lockdown can hold him in place with Stand Still? Admittedly, he won't have the double damage AoO, so the Stand Still DC isn't as high, but it's still there, isn't it? Or am I missing something?
Spring attack let's you move before and after the attack, not during it.
Stand Still only let's you replace AoO for "movement out of a square you threaten that grants you an attack of opportunity." Not every AoO you make.
So...
1) You're not moving so no stand still for the spring attack 'attack'.
2) Hitting him and provoking an AoO doesn't mean it can be replaced with a stand still.
Spring attack let's you move before and after the attack, not during it.
Stand Still only let's you replace AoO for "movement out of a square you threaten that grants you an attack of opportunity." Not every AoO you make.
So...
1) You're not moving so no stand still for the spring attack 'attack'.
2) Hitting him and provoking an AoO doesn't mean it can be replaced with a stand still.
Wow. I only just noticed that standstill does no damage. My warning at the top of my build is so true.
Why would he have to ready actions against Spring Attackers? He has Robilar's Gambit, doesn't he? Shouldn't that mean that once the Spring Attacker takes a swing at Lockdown (or Lockdown 2.0), Lockdown can hold him in place with Stand Still? Admittedly, he won't have the double damage AoO, so the Stand Still DC isn't as high, but it's still there, isn't it? Or am I missing something?
On top of everything Previn noted... this is why my version will attempt to incorporate mechanics outside of the lockdown technique. If a spring attacker is giving you trouble, Robilar's might be enough to allow you to sunder the weapon, bull rush the enemy, or trip him. While tripping is probably the most powerful, it's the least likely with the half-ogre build.
I should note though that I believe Thicket of Blades would trump both Tumbling and Spring Attack. But I'm going with the OP's assumptions.
On top of everything Previn noted... this is why my version will attempt to incorporate mechanics outside of the lockdown technique. If a spring attacker is giving you trouble, Robilar's might be enough to allow you to sunder the weapon, bull rush the enemy, or trip him. While tripping is probably the most powerful, it's the least likely with the half-ogre build.
I should note though that I believe Thicket of Blades would trump both Tumbling and Spring Attack. But I'm going with the OP's assumptions.
Ooh, you're making a lockdown too! I can't wait to see it.
Ooh, you're making a lockdown too! I can't wait to see it.
He already posted most of the build a page or two back.
Thicket of Blades' extent of power definitely requires mediation. Note that Spring Attack is not the only problem. There are more then a few manuvers from ToB that also 'don't provoke movement AoO's', which effectively nerfs the entire power of the stance.
To be honest, I DO think Thicket should trump the feats and manuvers, but I'm going with just Tumble, because Tumble is 'normal movement', and feats should trump a DC 15 skill check. It's safer, and people can have their DM weigh in otherwise.
the best way to stop a Spring attacker is to close to within 10' of him...he can't get off a Spring Attack that way, and you can AoO the tar out of him. The ready action is simply so you don't waste your attack action from round to round...there is no way to avoid the Ready Action, RObilar's after that is just gravy. In all cases, you'd be better off doing an OA against someone who is already in reach, and at high levels, just Robilar the crap back out of the Spring Attackers.
Again, the key to dealing with Spring Attackers is to get to 10' of them. Then they can't initiate the SA against you, and You can Lock them down. A Partial Charge to interrupt a Spring Attack via a Ready action will also do the job of disrupting their attack routine. Sitting and waiting for them can work, but it's reactive instead of proactive, and doesn't play to your strengths.
You want to be proactive and force them into a situation where you can initiate a Lock, not exchange attacks with them.
===Aelryinth
Ooh, you're making a lockdown too! I can't wait to see it.
He already posted most of the build a page or two back.
Thicket of Blades' extent of power definitely requires mediation. Note that Spring Attack is not the only problem. There are more then a few manuvers from ToB that also 'don't provoke movement AoO's', which effectively nerfs the entire power of the stance.
To be honest, I DO think Thicket should trump the feats and manuvers, but I'm going with just Tumble, because Tumble is 'normal movement', and feats should trump a DC 15 skill check. It's safer, and people can have their DM weigh in otherwise.
the best way to stop a Spring attacker is to close to within 10' of him...he can't get off a Spring Attack that way, and you can AoO the tar out of him. The ready action is simply so you don't waste your attack action from round to round...there is no way to avoid the Ready Action, RObilar's after that is just gravy. In all cases, you'd be better off doing an OA against someone who is already in reach, and at high levels, just Robilar the crap back out of the Spring Attackers.
Again, the key to dealing with Spring Attackers is to get to 10' of them. Then they can't initiate the SA against you, and You can Lock them down. A Partial Charge to interrupt a Spring Attack via a Ready action will also do the job of disrupting their attack routine. Sitting and waiting for them can work, but it's reactive instead of proactive, and doesn't play to your strengths.
You want to be proactive and force them into a situation where you can initiate a Lock, not exchange attacks with them.
===Aelryinth
He already posted most of the build a page or two back.
I just went back 10 pages and can't seem to find it. Would it be too much trouble to give me a link to it?
Archerpwr, when it happens, it will be fighter-only of course
.I posted a new item list I believe, but I haven't actually posted a build (I don't remember).
Archerpwr, when it happens, it will be fighter-only of course
That explains it. I can't wait.
Spring attack let's you move before and after the attack, not during it.
Stand Still only let's you replace AoO for "movement out of a square you threaten that grants you an attack of opportunity." Not every AoO you make.
So...
1) You're not moving so no stand still for the spring attack 'attack'.
2) Hitting him and provoking an AoO doesn't mean it can be replaced with a stand still.
Ah, of course. :embarrass Thanks.
the best way to stop a Spring attacker is to close to within 10' of him...he can't get off a Spring Attack that way, and you can AoO the tar out of him. The ready action is simply so you don't waste your attack action from round to round...there is no way to avoid the Ready Action, RObilar's after that is just gravy. In all cases, you'd be better off doing an OA against someone who is already in reach, and at high levels, just Robilar the crap back out of the Spring Attackers.
Again, the key to dealing with Spring Attackers is to get to 10' of them. Then they can't initiate the SA against you, and You can Lock them down. A Partial Charge to interrupt a Spring Attack via a Ready action will also do the job of disrupting their attack routine. Sitting and waiting for them can work, but it's reactive instead of proactive, and doesn't play to your strengths.
You want to be proactive and force them into a situation where you can initiate a Lock, not exchange attacks with them.
===Aelryinth
Easier said than done.
Any good spring attacker, like a monk or mobility-based hexblade or gish, will have a huge edge in mobility and will use that mobility edge to dictate the terms of combat. The spring attacker simply isn't going to let you get within 10' of him. Plus many spring attackers will use a reach weapon so that makes it that much more difficult.
Readying an action is a good idea but if the spring attacker is as good with tactics as the lockdown player then he's not going to spring attack you when you can have a readied action. Most likely the spring attacker is going to move to a save distance and hit you with a ranged attack.
Any good spring attacker, like a monk or mobility-based hexblade or gish, will have a huge edge in mobility and will use that mobility edge to dictate the terms of combat. The spring attacker simply isn't going to let you get within 10' of him. Plus many spring attackers will use a reach weapon so that makes it that much more difficult.
Readying an action is a good idea but if the spring attacker is as good with tactics as the lockdown player then he's not going to spring attack you when you can have a readied action. Most likely the spring attacker is going to move to a save distance and hit you with a ranged attack.
*shrugs*
A teleportation item can get you right next to a spring attacker in the blink of an eye.
As far as reach is concerned, it's probably not going to match Lockdown's most of the time.
If the spring attacker starts hitting you from a distance, no lock is needed. Let the rogue and the caster take care of him while he tries to hit your ~50 AC vs. ranged attacks.
I'm more worried if the spring attacker *isn't* going for Lockdown, but for his party members. That way he moves by Lockdown without provoking and doesn't provoke for attacking either. But hopefully, Lockdown's party members are optimized as well.
*shrugs*
A teleportation item can get you right next to a spring attacker in the blink of an eye.
As far as reach is concerned, it's probably not going to match Lockdown's most of the time.
If the spring attacker starts hitting you from a distance, no lock is needed. Let the rogue and the caster take care of him while he tries to hit your ~50 AC vs. ranged attacks.
I'm more worried if the spring attacker *isn't* going for Lockdown, but for his party members. That way he moves by Lockdown without provoking and doesn't provoke for attacking either. But hopefully, Lockdown's party members are optimized as well.
Lockdown has 50 AC vs ranged attacks? Good equipment choices, I guess?
Lockdown has 50 AC vs ranged attacks? Good equipment choices, I guess?
His build uses an Animated Large Shield +5 (+7 AC) with the Crystal vs Ranged attacks (+5 ranged AC). With defensive fighting, that's easily a 50 AC.
Also note, there's nothing saying Lockdown can't pick up a bow and shoot back.
To have a 'huge' mobility edge on Lockdown, sufficient to 'not let him get close', you'd need a movement rate of approximately 140, MAYBE 280. That's because a Spring Attack is a standard action, and you only get one move action. Closing to within 10' can be a double move, or a double move charge attack. It is VERY unlikely that any opponent is going to have anywhere near the mobility needed to accomplish this. IN other words, you'd have to have somewhere close to FOUR TIMES Lockdown's movement rate to guarantee he couldn't get next to you...and then there's always teleport (where DID those boots go?)
KHAN- Kindly note that Spring Attack only provokes no AoO from the person you are attacking. If some silly person decides to try and bypass you with a Spring Attack, you can AoO the heck out of them just fine.
==Aelryinth
With the half-ogre and items I proposed earlier, Lockdown's base AC is 48. If we were to add the Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection to the shield (I'm not fond of using up money and item slots for Energy Resistance), the AC would be 53 against ranged attacks.
Dang. That's pretty good equipment choices.
His build uses an Animated Large Shield +5 (+7 AC) with the Crystal vs Ranged attacks (+5 ranged AC). With defensive fighting, that's easily a 50 AC.
Also note, there's nothing saying Lockdown can't pick up a bow and shoot back.
To have a 'huge' mobility edge on Lockdown, sufficient to 'not let him get close', you'd need a movement rate of approximately 140, MAYBE 280. That's because a Spring Attack is a standard action, and you only get one move action. Closing to within 10' can be a double move, or a double move charge attack. It is VERY unlikely that any opponent is going to have anywhere near the mobility needed to accomplish this. IN other words, you'd have to have somewhere close to FOUR TIMES Lockdown's movement rate to guarantee he couldn't get next to you...and then there's always teleport (where DID those boots go?)
KHAN- Kindly note that Spring Attack only provokes no AoO from the person you are attacking. If some silly person decides to try and bypass you with a Spring Attack, you can AoO the heck out of them just fine
I'm sure that polymorph/alter self abuse could hit that movement speed. There are forms that have 90+ move speeds attainable with alter self. Spinagon, to be exact. 120 + 30(haste) +20(swiftblade) hits the 140 move speed with an obscure alter self form. Wouldn't be SOP, so not really worth discussing. That said, it irks me that lockdown has no way besides magic items to counter said mobility. I've tried to address that in lockdown 2.0. Kind of a shame I couldn't fit in any of the shadow hand teleports.
The big problem with spring attack is that it prevents lockdown from using overpowering assualt, which is kinda the whole point of 16 levels of fighter. A charge can hit, but it won't do anything about forcing dc 60 reflex saves. A swiftblade will actually have a high enough reflex save to make the DC 30s.
Just goes to show that swiftblade is one of those things that is exectly aimed at lockdown's heel. Not a common enemy, but one able to deal effectively with lockdown.
If that gets him within 10', Spring Attack is stopped I guess. Still, big speeds like that are a bit extreme.
Aelryinth, I feel like this -->
. I've been trying to think of some way to still have an option against a spring attacker springing beyond you to attack someone else, all the while forgetting that the ability to evade AoO's is only against you. Thanks for the correction.Now, if I may correct you
. My version of Lockdown will be using a +5 Animated Extreme Shield.At least, that's what I'm going with so far.
@Archerpwr: A swiftblade is just the kind of stuff that Lockdown talks about at the campfire or at the pub. Memorable battles that didn't end as quickly as usual, and required more effort (and likely more help from his party) to amount to victory.
Also, what is SOP?
@Archerpwr: A swiftblade is just the kind of stuff that Lockdown talks about at the campfire or at the pub. Memorable battles that didn't end as quickly as usual, and required more effort (and likely more help from his party) to amount to victory.
Also, what is SOP?
Standard Operating Procedure. The alter self abuse requires otherworldly to get the 120 fly speed. I still have trouble with lockdown fighting flying opponents. It interferes with the AMF, and without the AMF most spellcasters could just buff up and engage in melee (lockdown has pretty low damage output for a melee combatant).
Why does lockdown have a 1/day custom mindblank item? There's a noncustom one right in the SRD.
Standard Operating Procedure. The alter self abuse requires otherworldly to get the 120 fly speed. I still have trouble with lockdown fighting flying opponents. It interferes with the AMF, and without the AMF most spellcasters could just buff up and engage in melee (lockdown has pretty low damage output for a melee combatant).
Why does lockdown have a 1/day custom mindblank item? There's a noncustom one right in the SRD.
Why bother? 1 alterself can give you the paragon template which triples your speed for all movement forms and gives you tons of other stuff. Of course your DM will instakill you for even trying it.
Why bother? 1 alterself can give you the paragon template which triples your speed for all movement forms and gives you tons of other stuff. Of course your DM will instakill you for even trying it.
No, it won't.
Alter Self
Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
I stand corrected, they actually changed it. Also you can use the dragon type to get a fly of 120 as well as otherworldly. (medium fang dragon has a speed of 120).
Only open to dragonwrought kobolds. Even more unlikely than otherworldly for a swiftblade. That said, polymorph is much more efficient. We shouldn't restrict ourselves to alter self. Medium dragons don't have reach either.
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
So we are allowed to change into ourselves regardless but can not have templates. So what happens when a templated caster casts alter self to change into himself? Does he loose the template?
Now theres an intresting question:
So we are allowed to change into ourselves regardless but can not have templates. So what happens when a templated caster casts alter self to change into himself? Does he loose the template?
He wastes a spell.
He wastes a spell.
The contradiction would be DM area as to wether it fizzles or something else happens.
The contradiction would be DM area as to wether it fizzles or something else happens.
"I cast a spell to transform into myself"
Sounds like a wasted spell to me.
"I cast a spell to transform into myself"
Sounds like a wasted spell to me.
Unless you are a vampire and it does indeed make you loose the template. Then it's usefull.
I still have trouble with lockdown fighting flying opponents. It interferes with the AMF, and without the AMF most spellcasters could just buff up and engage in melee (lockdown has pretty low damage output for a melee combatant).
Well... I think damage output is a little relative. As far as I am concerned, dealing over 100 damage on a full attack is really good. Lockdown can do this. And, he can continue dealing damage on someone else's turn with AoO's.
Against buffed up casters engaging in melee, he still has Pierce Magical Protection. This can get rid of quite a few buffs. He also likely has better reach. And more HP.
I don't think it's that bad.
He can't autokill someone on a charge like a one-trick melee monster. But he can dish out quite a bit of damage on a full attack, and the same (or more) damage with AoO's.
Why does lockdown have a 1/day custom mindblank item? There's a noncustom one right in the SRD.
That item costs 120,000 gold pieces. That's what I like to call prohibitively expensive.
I'd much rather invest money in improving all saves than making myself immune to virtually everything that targets one save.
THere's a lot of games you can play with gold that I wasn't pulling on the original build. Greater Magic weapon, Greater Magic Vestment, buff this or that, pick Ancestral relic for a feat for another +100k, etc etc. Even having the party Artificer make the items means 100% return on goods vs 50%...double value.
But, stayed inside the limits. Should he have more stuff? Yeah...like the Boots of teleporting I so dearly think he should have. And an animated shield, except I think they are so cheesy I'd never make a serious build with them.
Ah, well.
The key to flying opponents is 'does Lockdown have to spring an AMF on them?' That's the very first serious question they need to ask. If not, then don't. Lockdown can keep a HUGE area in the air locked down. What's even funnier, is anyone locked down by Stand Still loses the ability to fly, and heads for the ground.
If so, then make damn sure the caster is going to hit the ground with you...preferably, beneath you, for some extra dmg. Then Tumble back to your feet and whale the tar out of him.
===Aelryinth
The key to flying opponents is 'does Lockdown have to spring an AMF on them?' That's the very first serious question they need to ask. If not, then don't. Lockdown can keep a HUGE area in the air locked down. What's even funnier, is anyone locked down by Stand Still loses the ability to fly, and heads for the ground.
===Aelryinth
Not with the way all of you have ruled stand still being able to negate all future movement for the turn. Which is why several people objected to the way it was being ruled in this thread. They wuold get hit and sit there hovering becuase if they fell they would be moving and violate your rules.
Not with the way all of you have ruled stand still being able to negate all future movement for the turn. Which is why several people objected to the way it was being ruled in this thread. They wuold get hit and sit there hovering becuase if they fell they would be moving and violate your rules.
If they have Perfect/Good Flight, sure. But the rest have Minimum Forward Speed, so if they stop, they fall.
Standstill only prevents voluntary movement; You can still fall or get bull-rushed.
If they have Perfect/Good Flight, sure. But the rest have Minimum Forward Speed, so if they stop, they fall.
Standstill only prevents voluntary movement; You can still fall or get bull-rushed.
Flight spell is good manuverability
Fly
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3Components: V, S, F/DFCasting Time: 1 standard actionRange: TouchTarget: Creature touchedDuration: 1 min./levelSaving Throw: Will negates (harmless)Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
Arcane Focus: A wing feather from any bird.
Good manuverability can hover per the rules in the SRD. So a mage hit with standstill does not fall while under the effects of a fly spell.
True. So?
The majority of this thread has been lockdown Vs. casters. Most casters fly via the fly spell. And most others can get to good manuverability through feats / spells / magic items which is one of the first things you do with a flight speed just to avoid situations like this. Thus I was pointing out that not all opponents hit via standstill will fall to the ground as claimed.
Divine casters generally have it harder.
Ok secoundly this is an aweseome fighter and the truth of the matter a fighter by himself isn't probably going to take on allot by himself that is caster in nature, but DnD is all about the party not the individual so for sure you have made an awesome character that will be a great asset to any party he joins!
Well... I think damage output is a little relative. As far as I am concerned, dealing over 100 damage on a full attack is really good. Lockdown can do this. And, he can continue dealing damage on someone else's turn with AoO's.
Relative I guess. I prefer to kill my opponent within a round or two if I'm getting off a full attack.
Against buffed up casters engaging in melee, he still has Pierce Magical Protection. This can get rid of quite a few buffs. He also likely has better reach. And more HP.
Polymorph is just so brutal though... There are a large number of spells that can help a caster deal 100+damage per round that never improve AC as a function of the spell. Greater Mirror image (immidiate action, pretty standard stuff) + polymorph (also pretty standard), makes for a caster unafraid to engage in melee. My version has the same problem, but I think I addressed that pretty well.
Relative I guess. I prefer to kill my opponent within a round or two if I'm getting off a full attack.
I consider killing an enemy in one round overkill, whether it's with an SoD or a full attack. That said, two rounds of full attacking will probably kill most NPC characters (average damage for my half-ogre without the weapon focus chain is 108 on a full attack). And while his full attack may not kill, his full attack combined with AoO's may. Of course, Lockdown doesn't really want to trade full attacks, but if he has to, I don't think the enemies will find him lackluster.
Polymorph is just so brutal though... There are a large number of spells that can help a caster deal 100+damage per round that never improve AC as a function of the spell. Greater Mirror image (immidiate action, pretty standard stuff) + polymorph (also pretty standard), makes for a caster unafraid to engage in melee. My version has the same problem, but I think I addressed that pretty well.
Well, I'll refrain from starting a long and ultimately fruitless discussion on whether Polymorph is vulnerable to PMP or not.
If an enemy caster's Greater Mirror Image and Polymorph is pretty standard, I'll simply counter that a Greater Dispel Magic is pretty standard as far as my party wizard is concerned
. That's one of the reasons he is there of course. Well-versed in magic, he has the greatest ability to protect against it after all.Even further, that's what the AMF Dust is for.
But even beyond that, I guess we'd have to discuss specific polymorph shapes. Unless the form grants a 20' reach or greater, I'm not seeing what the big deal is (I may just be tired).
Divine casters generally have it harder.
Air Walk is a good "flying" spell for clerics, but it is a level higher than Fly. It has some advantages over Fly, and some disadvantages.
I consider killing an enemy in one round overkill, whether it's with an SoD or a full attack. That said, two rounds of full attacking will probably kill most NPC characters (average damage for my half-ogre without the weapon focus chain is 108 on a full attack). And while his full attack may not kill, his full attack combined with AoO's may. Of course, Lockdown doesn't really want to trade full attacks, but if he has to, I don't think the enemies will find him lackluster.
Well, I'll refrain from starting a long and ultimately fruitless discussion on whether Polymorph is vulnerable to PMP or not.
If an enemy caster's Greater Mirror Image and Polymorph is pretty standard, I'll simply counter that a Greater Dispel Magic is pretty standard as far as my party wizard is concerned
Even further, that's what the AMF Dust is for.
But even beyond that, I guess we'd have to discuss specific polymorph shapes. Unless the form grants a 20' reach or greater, I'm not seeing what the big deal is (I may just be tired).
I had a nice big post that just got eaten
Main points:
Lockdown is sold like an arena build.
Lockdown needs a party. It just doesn't work, and doesn't accomplish much solo. It is party friendly. It is anything but an arena build. As such we should be assuming a party setting, but aelryinth kinda didn't with the original build. I've tried to explain that in my version. Lockdown can't function alone, nor should it.
I had a nice big post that just got eaten
Main points:
Lockdown is sold like an arena build.
Lockdown needs a party. It just doesn't work, and doesn't accomplish much solo. It is party friendly. It is anything but an arena build. As such we should be assuming a party setting, but aelryinth kinda didn't with the original build. I've tried to explain that in my version. Lockdown can't function alone, nor should it.
Then you need to read the original build. It was never, ever sold as an arena build. It was sold as a fighter type who could very reasonably take on casters if need be.
It was not built, however, to RELY on casters being available...because fighter-haters whining about the fighter 'needing buffs' and 'taking spells from the rest of the party' and 'unable to be effective by himself' are even more irritating then 'fighters are item-reliant'.
I describe what Lockdown does in various tactical situations sans the rest of the party, because I don't know the composition of the rest of the party. It was EVERYONE ELSE, piling on the gravy train to say how their favorite spellcaster build could Arena Match Lockdown and kill him, that is contributing to your image of him as an Arena build. Those situations were how he could contribute, without relying on the rest of the party. He wasn't dependent on them, and he's very, very effective at what he does.
Seriously, he's got 5 purely elective feats, seven if you count the mage slaying ones. That's because Campaigns vary, not because he's Arena optimized. His race is human so that it's easily altered, and his human feat is humanocentric.
Lockdown was never made to work solo...however, he was made able to deal with spellcasters. Somehow, that got twisted into an Arena build, which was anything but what the build was for. He's made to be effective in just about any campaign with a little tweaking...which, I think, is why he's gotten so much attention.
===Aelryinth
I'd like to start off by saying.. SWEET!
Ok secoundly this is an aweseome fighter and the truth of the matter a fighter by himself isn't probably going to take on allot by himself that is caster in nature, but DnD is all about the party not the individual so for sure you have made an awesome character that will be a great asset to any party he joins!
Thank you. Enjoy the build.
==Aelryinth
Then you need to read the original build. It was never, ever sold as an arena build. It was sold as a fighter type who could very reasonably take on casters if need be.
It was not built, however, to RELY on casters being available...because fighter-haters whining about the fighter 'needing buffs' and 'taking spells from the rest of the party' and 'unable to be effective by himself' are even more irritating then 'fighters are item-reliant'.
I describe what Lockdown does in various tactical situations sans the rest of the party, because I don't know the composition of the rest of the party. It was EVERYONE ELSE, piling on the gravy train to say how their favorite spellcaster build could Arena Match Lockdown and kill him, that is contributing to your image of him as an Arena build. Those situations were how he could contribute, without relying on the rest of the party. He wasn't dependent on them, and he's very, very effective at what he does.
Seriously, he's got 5 purely elective feats, seven if you count the mage slaying ones. That's because Campaigns vary, not because he's Arena optimized. His race is human so that it's easily altered, and his human feat is humanocentric.
Lockdown was never made to work solo...however, he was made able to deal with spellcasters. Somehow, that got twisted into an Arena build, which was anything but what the build was for. He's made to be effective in just about any campaign with a little tweaking...which, I think, is why he's gotten so much attention.
===Aelryinth
I must have misunderstood you then. I apologize for the misunderstanding. My main beef is the "purely elective feats" thing. When your class features are feats you shouldn't be having them be "purely elective". Stylistic differences I guess. I appreciate the work and have tried to keep the main elements in my version (y'know, cuz multiclassing just works better).
I had a nice big post that just got eaten
I was hungry.
I won't apologize.
Lockdown is sold like an arena build.
Well, not from me.
Lockdown needs a party. It just doesn't work, and doesn't accomplish much solo. It is party friendly. It is anything but an arena build. As such we should be assuming a party setting, but aelryinth kinda didn't with the original build. I've tried to explain that in my version. Lockdown can't function alone, nor should it.
Well, yeah. Lockdown is built specifically with a party in mind. He isn't focused on killing stuff quickly. He is focused on stopping stuff from moving and attacking so that the party can kill it.
Which is why these scenarios are always a little silly to me. Sure, you've demonstrated that some NPC can hinder Lockdown, if we ignore his three teammates and how their actions could have impacted the battle. And I don't mean buffing Lockdown, or protecting him (though those are indeed valid tactics), but even just being there, or putting the enemy on the defensive with an attack.
These scenarios are useful in seeing potential problems, but they will always be stacked against Lockdown because...
1. We're aware of his strengths, weaknesses, and tactics. We're human, and we can't ignore these things. In fact, we mean to take them into account when throwing out the build stub of a potential enemy.
2. Lockdown is without a party. We're missing three actions. We're missing three potential targets other than Lockdown. We're missing valuable tactical aid in combat. It's that simple.
I don't think Aelryinth is trying to sell it as an arena build, though it might have come off that way at sometime because of the general tone of these discussions. To be honest, all builds on the CO Boards should be assumed to be part of an adventuring party, because that is the default premise of the game. But, we're a little obsessed with personal power on this board, and like to be very versatile and very powerful. Most of the time, we default to arena, even though it's mostly irrelevant. Even though Lockdown was presented as the member of a party (as stated in the OP), it seems everyone was intent on defeating him with casters to prove he didn't work.
Arena-style matches are fun and all, and can help gauge which build would be victorious in a one-on-one fight. But the game doesn't play that way most of the time. Your favorite uber caster will be outgunned, even if he has you outnumbered with minions. And that's not going easy on the party, or nerfing your NPC's. That's just the reality of the game.
So how is the current version of the Lockdown handling concealment? I again got an idea that might be shot down immediately, but the Anarchic Initiate gets concealment that cannot be negated even by True seeing. Lasts only a few rounds, but it is supernatural and so forth...
The lockdown on this thread needs truesight. My version sacrificed defensive sweep for blindfight and pierce magical concealment.
Overwhelming assault/decisive strike is a full round action. Pierce magical protection is a standard action. The two are mutually exclusive. I'm gunna drop PMP and PMC from my build now.
That means some changes to Lockdown as well, right? Bad news for both builds, I guess...
Yeah, hearing from aelryinth about PMP I hadn't ever bothered to read the feat that closely. I dropped it from my build. Did gain one to hit and defensive sweep in the shuffle, if at the cost of pierce magical protection and pierce magical concealment.
That means some changes to Lockdown as well, right? Bad news for both builds, I guess...
No. I'll keep PMP, but PMC was feat intensive and is the reason it's not in the original build (required that blindfighting). It's optional.
PMP is a standard action, but it DEALS DMG. This is only a bad thing if you are a Warblade trying to execute manuvers. For a Fighter, it means your every standard attack now rips away magical defenses and ignores them on your attack. PMP is very, very much a good thing. Any time you have an SA, you can add PMP to it, and it costs you NOTHING.
For a Warblade, it means no manuvers = the suq. I kinda wondered why Arch had them in his build at all. Khan took them out of his build.
--
Arch, the reason 5 feats are 'optional' is to account for GENERAL FEATS. When I designed Lockdown, I basically wanted him to stay almost completely inside the 'frame' of the fighter...11 fighter feats, and maybe a couple others (and even a couple of the feats, like PMP, aren't that key).
Thus, the build is a true 'fighter class build', because the Seven General Feats that a character gets from race are, in effect, completely optional to the build. Virtually every other build you see (and the one you are building yourself) are HUGELY feat intensive and require massive devotion to get to the required number of feats to make the class shine. Lockdown is basically 'pure fighter' and leaves lots of room for customizing, and doing it while cleaving purely to a Fighter Chassis.
Either True Seeing or some form of Blindsight/blindsense would be immensely useful to any Fighter build, and get around many forms of concealment. I'm a big fan of subbing magic items for feats so I don't have to spend my precious feats on something that can be acquired cheaply with gold. If I played games with Greater magic Weapon/Vestment I could even afford the additional toys...but that's a question for those who'd use the build to consider, and I left it out when I equipped him.
==Aelryinth
So how is the current version of the Lockdown handling concealment? I again got an idea that might be shot down immediately, but the Anarchic Initiate gets concealment that cannot be negated even by True seeing. Lasts only a few rounds, but it is supernatural and so forth...
I'm planning on using an item to get around this, the Crystal Mask of Clear Sight (if I remember correctly). Swift action to ignore concealment for 1 round. Unlimited uses.
Holy crap...
Overwhelming assault/decisive strike is a full round action. Pierce magical protection is a standard action. The two are mutually exclusive. I'm gunna drop PMP and PMC from my build now.
Well, you can't use both together, but both are still useful. After all, what's the point of trying to lock someone down if he's overpowering you in melee combat anyways with his buffs?
PMP is situational of course, but it's pretty good for what it does.
Even if Lockdown fails a lock because his Standstill DC is lower for not using Overwhelming Attack, at least he debuffed the enemy with PMP.
That's my take on it anyways. The first feat I would consider dropping is Defensive Sweep. Since the idea is to outreach your enemy and keep him from threatening you, you'll likely never be adjacent to use the feat.
If the AC is unhittable for your warrior, your rogue and cleric are in a bit of trouble as well.
But if you can take down a Righteous Might, or a Haste, or a Bite of the Wearbear, then you've at least made your enemy that less dangerous even if he manages to beat your Standstill DC.
(A note: Overwhelming Attack is used to crank up the Standstill DC. This does not mean that without Overwhelming Attack the enemy is assumed to make his reflex save. The save can still be rather high for many enemies. The point is that if you are giving up the higher DC for PMP, you are still aiding your allies by knocking out buffs on the enemy.)
Of course, the point is moot if Lockdown gets the feeling that some Dust of Negation is needed
.Khan, you're right. PMP is still handy. I'll try to fit it back in on the morn. If it seems like I keep tweaking lockdown 2.0, it's because I'm still not fully satisfied.
Frankly, I'm beginning to think that a Crusader/Warblade would do it better. Crushing Vice + Standstill + Thicket of Blades is more than enough, and it leaves plenty of room for anything else.
Frankly, I'm beginning to think that a Crusader/Warblade would do it better. Crushing Vice + Standstill + Thicket of Blades is more than enough, and it leaves plenty of room for anything else.
Well, my primary goal was to hit unmakable standstill DCs in thicket of blades in as early a level as possible. You could probably pull off something more martial adept heavy that just skips the double damage on AoOs thing.
Aelryinth, okay then. I suppose making him a straigth Fighter gives him a lot of versatility when it comes to feat choices. If I at some point have some extra time, I think I could make a little comparison of the Lockdown builds. Maybe even throw some enemies at them and see how they fare.
Keep up the good work both of you!
Khan, neat find with that item! As I said, it was merely an idea to be shot down. It'd be nice to know how many of my finds can be destroyed in here.
Keep them coming
.This is the half-ogre version of Lockdown. I'm using LA Buy-Off.
Ogrelock
Half-Ogre Fighter 20
1. Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
2. Standstill
3. Power Attack
4. Improved Sunder
6. Martial Study, Combat Brute
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Shock Trooper
10. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
12. Knockback, Robilar's Gambit
14. Mage Slayer
15. Precise Swing
16. Overwhelming Attack
18. Endurance, Deft Opportunist
20. Steadfast Determination
I swapped out the Weapon Focus Chain for a Power Attack chain that mostly focuses on Bull Rush/Shock Trooper/Knockback. I wanted an option in case the lockdown failed, and I figured pushing someone away was almost the same as keeping them in place (sort of). I can also sunder someone's weapon if they're being a pain somehow (they shouldn't be within reach to hit me most of the time). Shock Trooper has the added benefit of Heedless Charge, which means he can charge for some nice damage if need-be.
I added Precise Swing to deal with the issue of cover, and Endurance/Steadfast Determination for a nicer will save and a reliable fortitude save.
I took out Defensive Sweep because it only works when your enemy is adjacent, and Lockdown tries to not let that happen. For basically the same reason (and to save a feat), I took out EWP: Spiked Chain. It's main benefit is allowing you to threaten adjacent squares as well as giving you reach. I'll use another reach weapon and equip Spiked Gauntlets to threaten the 10' around me (that area should be empty if I'm doing my job correctly anyways). Out of the non-exotic reach weapons in the PHB, I'd suggest the guisarme. With it you still have the option to trip (and though you provoke, you'll likely outreach your opponent).
I also took out Pierce Magical Protection because I needed another feat. While the option for a fighter to debuff is awesome, it's just one of those things to me that is better left in the hands of the mage. The feat is situational, and I'd rather spend my action locking someone down than trying to debuff what may or may not be valid spell targets.
Close-Quarters Fighting also got axed, simply because I needed another feat, and decided that being a large creature with full BAB and 30 strength was enough for the most part. If I were to invest more money into my Will save, I would swap out Endurance/Steadfast Determination for Close-Quarters Fighting and Pierce Magical Protection.
Here is my revised item list:
Show
Head: empty
Face: Crystal Mask of Visual Insight and Mindarmor (20,000)
Combines the Mask of Visual Insight with the Mask of Mindarmor. It allows you to overcome concealment for 1 round against anyone within 30' as a swift action and provides you with a +5 insight bonus to Will saves.
Throat: Amulet of Natural Armor (+5) and Health (+6) (86,000)
Combines an Amulet of Natural Armor with an Amulet of Health.
Shoulders: +5 Cloak of Resistance (25,000)
Body: +5 Mithral Chain Shirt (26,000)
Body: Masterwork Chahar-aina (225)
Torso: Shirt of Ironskin (15,000)
Arms: +5 Empyreal Dastanas of Opportunity (51,475)
Combines the Empyreal Dastanas with Bracers of Opportunity. Grants a +5 bonus to all saving throws and a +2 competence bonus to all AoO's. Allows you to overcome AoO limit by 1 attack twice each day.
Hands: +1 Eager Spiked Gauntlets of Warning and Dexterity (+6) (54,305)
Combines Eager Spiked Gauntlets of Warning with Gloves of Dexterity. Gauntlets provide a +7 bonus to Initiative checks.
Ring: +5 Ring of Deflection and Anticipation (56,000)
Combines Ring of Deflection with Ring of Anticipation (DotU). Ring of Anticipation allows you to roll twice for initiative and take the better of the two rolls. This is a continuous effect.
Ring: Ring of Negative Protection (36,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle and Strength (+6) (48,000)
Combines Belt of Strength with Belt of Battle.
Feet: Steadfast Boots of Springing and Striding (6,900)
Combines Steadfast Boots with Boots of Springing and Striding.
Melee Weapon: +5 Adamantine Shadowstriking Guisarme (131,009)
Ranged Weapon: +5 Longbow (50,000)
Shield: +5 Animated Mithral Extreme Shield (50,030)
Items:
Carpet of Flying (60,000)
Dust of Negation (x10) (33,000)
Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (2,500)
Greater Crystal of Aquatic Action (3,000)
Total: 754,444
Face: Crystal Mask of Visual Insight and Mindarmor (20,000)
Combines the Mask of Visual Insight with the Mask of Mindarmor. It allows you to overcome concealment for 1 round against anyone within 30' as a swift action and provides you with a +5 insight bonus to Will saves.
Throat: Amulet of Natural Armor (+5) and Health (+6) (86,000)
Combines an Amulet of Natural Armor with an Amulet of Health.
Shoulders: +5 Cloak of Resistance (25,000)
Body: +5 Mithral Chain Shirt (26,000)
Body: Masterwork Chahar-aina (225)
Torso: Shirt of Ironskin (15,000)
Arms: +5 Empyreal Dastanas of Opportunity (51,475)
Combines the Empyreal Dastanas with Bracers of Opportunity. Grants a +5 bonus to all saving throws and a +2 competence bonus to all AoO's. Allows you to overcome AoO limit by 1 attack twice each day.
Hands: +1 Eager Spiked Gauntlets of Warning and Dexterity (+6) (54,305)
Combines Eager Spiked Gauntlets of Warning with Gloves of Dexterity. Gauntlets provide a +7 bonus to Initiative checks.
Ring: +5 Ring of Deflection and Anticipation (56,000)
Combines Ring of Deflection with Ring of Anticipation (DotU). Ring of Anticipation allows you to roll twice for initiative and take the better of the two rolls. This is a continuous effect.
Ring: Ring of Negative Protection (36,000)
Waist: Belt of Battle and Strength (+6) (48,000)
Combines Belt of Strength with Belt of Battle.
Feet: Steadfast Boots of Springing and Striding (6,900)
Combines Steadfast Boots with Boots of Springing and Striding.
Melee Weapon: +5 Adamantine Shadowstriking Guisarme (131,009)
Ranged Weapon: +5 Longbow (50,000)
Shield: +5 Animated Mithral Extreme Shield (50,030)
Items:
Carpet of Flying (60,000)
Dust of Negation (x10) (33,000)
Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection (2,500)
Greater Crystal of Aquatic Action (3,000)
Total: 754,444
I got an idea. Again. It's once again only one melee build, but how about an Arcane duelist and his Flurry of Swords? There's no guarantee the Lockdown will hit the right image and I'd figure I could get a AC high enough to make it relatively uncertain for the Lockdown to hit the Duelist with is attack of opportunities. That would mean a helluva amount of non-lethal damage if the strategy works...
KHAN- Kindly note that Spring Attack only provokes no AoO from the person you are attacking. If some silly person decides to try and bypass you with a Spring Attack, you can AoO the heck out of them just fine.
Yes, but Bounding Assault (PHB2) lets you not provoke AoOs from a 2nd person (it also grants a 2nd attack). It's a logical feat for a Spring Attacker, and it's logical for him to choose the big guy with the spiked chain as the 2nd target. Hence he can get to the party members.
It requires BAB +12 but the Swiftblade gets it for free at PrC level 7 (level 13 for a straight sorcerer or wizard entry).
Not that Spring Attackers ever form the bulk of one's opponents, but it is a loophole.
Khan, Aelryinth and everyone else who have been debating throughout the thread, I have yet another question. One of the main arguments against this build is against its effective use of items and this issue might have been addressed already, but I can't recall anyone mentioning it, so here it comes. Why can't I spot Skin of Proteus in the inventory of any version of the Lockdown or is it just because of the item-dependancy argument?
It's mentioned in my thread.
Note on Khan's build, with a +2 LA, that's actually a level 22 character, and Epic. ;) Should have just gone up to 18 to account for race.
I'll post a link to the build on the first page, Khan.
It's too bad there isn't a slashing Spiked Gauntlet, as it would dovetail with Lockdown's glaive, and he could lose his short haft feat and pick up Power Attack. Stick Adaptive on the ganuntlets, and his whole Weapon Focus tree would apply! I suppose he could go longspear, but that takes away from ANY ability to sunder...although his ability to take a charge would be nasty...
Defensive Sweep is basically in the build for use in an AMF. In the Field, your opponent is likely adjacent to you, and it virtually guarantees an AoO every round...either he moves and gets Stood Still, and then you AOO him with the sweep, or you AoO him with the Sweep anyways.
===Aelryinth
Sigh.
Given that the item could replace about six other things in the build, at least, yeah, oneght consider it essential...and you're probably the type who keeps a list of 30 different forms on hand for all the different stuff you can get off them if you use it, too. That 36 base Str Firbolg build is looking mighty nice, especially with the big bonus to Nat AC...and natural reach! Ah, Lordy...
There's a reason why the poly chain is in for major nerfage, and catering to it with an item like this is just buying into it.
Yes, yes, mega-powerful and underpriced item. I will leave it OFF the build just because of how much I hate shapechanging cheese whiz. But it certainly deserves mention for those not worried about game breaking stuff!
==Aelryinth
That means you can only use 7 HD forms (iirc the new trolls in MM5 have 28 str and almost as good dex).
Aside from the new trolls, it's pretty tame for the price.
Note on Khan's build, with a +2 LA, that's actually a level 22 character, and Epic. ;) Should have just gone up to 18 to account for race.
===Aelryinth
Just to point out, LA buyoff was specified so still ECL 20, though without that rule variant you're correct.
He already posted most of the build a page or two back.
Thicket of Blades' extent of power definitely requires mediation. Note that Spring Attack is not the only problem. There are more then a few manuvers from ToB that also 'don't provoke movement AoO's', which effectively nerfs the entire power of the stance.
To be honest, I DO think Thicket should trump the feats and manuvers, but I'm going with just Tumble, because Tumble is 'normal movement', and feats should trump a DC 15 skill check. It's safer, and people can have their DM weigh in otherwise.
the best way to stop a Spring attacker is to close to within 10' of him...he can't get off a Spring Attack that way, and you can AoO the tar out of him. The ready action is simply so you don't waste your attack action from round to round...there is no way to avoid the Ready Action, RObilar's after that is just gravy. In all cases, you'd be better off doing an OA against someone who is already in reach, and at high levels, just Robilar the crap back out of the Spring Attackers.
Again, the key to dealing with Spring Attackers is to get to 10' of them. Then they can't initiate the SA against you, and You can Lock them down. A Partial Charge to interrupt a Spring Attack via a Ready action will also do the job of disrupting their attack routine. Sitting and waiting for them can work, but it's reactive instead of proactive, and doesn't play to your strengths.
You want to be proactive and force them into a situation where you can initiate a Lock, not exchange attacks with them.
===Aelryinth
Quick thought.
Thicket of blades and spring attack should cancel each other out here's why.
Now while its not written anywhere else (but maybe spells) in D&D items that do the same thing but opposite nominally cancel each other out.
I would think that these two effects would act like darkness being brought into an area of light then the spell of light being cast. They area would reset to the default position (whatever that was).
In this it would indicate (and this is my own assertion) spring attack vs Thicket of blades the situation would revert to the default positon of
"movement through a threatened space provokes an attack of opportunity"
What say you to this, first line of thought?
Bladerager Troll(MMV)6HD...Large Giant,+5 Natural Armor, 28 Str,16 Dex,28 Con
So dexterous gauntlets of war would cost 36.000 + 4000(x2) = 44.000 instead of just 40.000.
Quick thought.
Thicket of blades and spring attack should cancel each other out here's why.
Now while its not written anywhere else (but maybe spells) in D&D items that do the same thing but opposite nominally cancel each other out.
I would think that these two effects would act like darkness being brought into an area of light then the spell of light being cast. They area would reset to the default position (whatever that was).
In this it would indicate (and this is my own assertion) spring attack vs Thicket of blades the situation would revert to the default positon of
"movement through a threatened space provokes an attack of opportunity"
What say you to this, first line of thought?
That's why I believe Thicket trumps manuvers, as cancelling one another out restores the status quo. But, some might not see it that way, so it is going to require DM adjucation.
===Aelryinth
A small note on the item list. Since the post is so long I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but when you add a second ability to an item, the price for the second ability is doubles iirc.
So dexterous gauntlets of war would cost 36.000 + 4000(x2) = 44.000 instead of just 40.000.
Per the magical item compendium, ability score modifiers NEVER cause a price adjustment.
These are gauntlets of war with a +6 Dex kicker, and 40k IS the correct price.
===Aelryinth
I've personally never used that and whenever I play characters with an ability to change shape, I'll try to keep it down to one or two forms. One of carnivore's builds reminded me of this form though:
You are intentionally limiting yourself so as not to draw fire. The fact is, the list of forms you can use to break the game with Polymorph is VERY extensive, and there's whole threads devoted to what forms grant what.
I believe the two ideal Poly forms at high level for most fighters are the Firbolg (Str 36, Large, +17 Nat Armor or something, other goodies) and the War Troll (also great physical stats). You'd have to add the price of transforming your equipment so you could still wear it on the bigger form into all your gear or it'd get absorbed, but sheesh. Starting str of 36 goes right to 42, that huge Nat AC and natural reach, and we are off and running..
===Aelryinth
Per the magical item compendium, ability score modifiers NEVER cause a price adjustment.
These are gauntlets of war with a +6 Dex kicker, and 40k IS the correct price.
===Aelryinth
cool, thanks for pointing this out.
btw: I also really like the lockdown build of yours. I'm using it in our current campaign and it's working great (even tho' Im only lvl 6 yet). I've never enjoyed playing a fighter this much.
cheers
/Giel
cool, thanks for pointing this out.
btw: I also really like the lockdown build of yours. I'm using it in our current campaign and it's working great (even tho' Im only lvl 6 yet). I've never enjoyed playing a fighter this much.
cheers
/Giel
IF I may ask, how are you personalizing it?
===Aelryinth
Ogrelock
Half-Ogre Fighter 20
1. Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
2. Power Attack
3. Standstill
4. Improved Sunder
6. Martial Study, Combat Brute
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Shock Trooper
10. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
12. Knockback, Robilar's Gambit
14. Mage Slayer
15. Precise Swing
16. Overwhelming Attack
18. ?????, Deft Opportunist
20. ?????
I'll redo the item list. Can someone give me a push in the right direction regarding magic item pricing though? I was using the Magic Item Compendium and I thought I was following the rules.
Archerpwr, thanks on the feat corrections (I always do that). It may mean I'll have to dump Endurance/Steadfast Determination. I don't want to move any other feat up to that level. That leaves two feat slots open. Any suggestions?
Ogrelock
Half-Ogre Fighter 20
1. Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
2. Power Attack
3. Standstill
4. Improved Sunder
6. Martial Study, Combat Brute
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Shock Trooper
10. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
12. Knockback, Robilar's Gambit
14. Mage Slayer
15. Precise Swing
16. Overwhelming Attack
18. ?????, Deft Opportunist
20. ?????
I would not consider a single feat in there dead weight. Defensive sweep and pierce magical protection are strong choices for the last two feats. I rather like this fighter 20 (even if I like my multiclass abomination more :D).
I assume you're going reach weapon+armor spikes?
I would not consider a single feat in there dead weight. Defensive sweep and pierce magical protection are strong choices for the last two feats. I rather like this fighter 20 (even if I like my multiclass abomination more :D).
I assume you're going reach weapon+armor spikes?
+1 but would you suggest this in a world without level buy off?
I'm about to start a super hard campaign here tonight (hellgate: Faerun the Dm is calling it) and I think I'm gonna try one of the builds we start at level 5 (for me level 3 or is it 4? if I'm ogre lock) and there is no buy-off. Is it still worth it, or should I stick with human lock down.
+1 but would you suggest this in a world without level buy off?
I'm about to start a super hard campaign here tonight (hellgate: Faerun the Dm is calling it) and I think I'm gonna try one of the builds we start at level 5 (for me level 3 or is it 4? if I'm ogre lock) and there is no buy-off. Is it still worth it, or should I stick with human lock down.
If you have easy access to enlarge person go with the human.
Archerpwr, thanks on the feat corrections (I always do that). It may mean I'll have to dump Endurance/Steadfast Determination. I don't want to move any other feat up to that level. That leaves two feat slots open. Any suggestions?
Well, dumping Steadfast Determination of course makes me think of picking up Resolute to help fix your Will save for when you really, really need it - given that it's an AoO heavy build, Deft Opportunist helps make up some of the difference on attack bonus, right? I'd also second Pierce Magical Protection. Given your enormous reach, I'm not as sure about Defensive Sweep, though it's not like I'd object to it either!
If you have easy access to enlarge person go with the human.
Well ... hmm... I could buy potions of it every level...
The second closest thing would be to go psiwar. Why did you not choose to make the psiwar for you 2.0 build? CL problems? Guess I gotta study that thread.... *sigh*
Was it the interaction with mage slayer that turned that idea off?
I'm kinda thinking I'll be playing under the "doesn't affect manifester levels" rule so maybe something like
Dr.Strangelove*
human combat reflexes
1. psywar1 dodge, expertise
2. pw 2 karmic strike
3. pw 3 stand still (odd approach but there's part of the combo right there)
4. pw 4
5. pw 5 psionic weapon
6. pw 6 power attack
7. pw 7
8. pw 8 feat deep impact
9. Crusader 1 (9th) level feat Martial stance (thicket of blades)
10 pw 9 *
11 pw 10
12 pw 11. Mage slayer, pierce magical protection
12 pw
14 pw
15 pw expanded knowledge:metamorphosis, metamorphic transfer
16 pw
17 pw
18 Warshaper Defensive sweep
19 Warshaper
20 Warshaper
*Or how I learned to stop hating and learned to love the bomb (er...the lock)
**In my existance so rare has it been to get games beyond 10th level that I can't count them on one hand so I cannont be held accountable for build flaws over 20 level. I just took what I knew was good from the king of smack and applied it at high levels.
Whats good also is that Dr.Stranglock (lol) has the base lock at a low level.
but what I'm unsure of is the interplay in having leap attack in the build with deep impact which is what I really want but can't fit before level 10 yet. Basically my problem is that I'm cramming as much in before level 10 as possible as thats where I expect the bulk of play to take place. I'd like to add leap attack in because it goes so well with psionic lions charge and deep impact.
Well ... hmm... I could buy potions of it every level...
The second closest thing would be to go psiwar. Why did you not choose to make the psiwar for you 2.0 build? CL problems? Guess I gotta study that thread.... *sigh*
Was it the interaction with mage slayer that turned that idea off?
I'm kinda thinking I'll be playing under the "doesn't affect manifester levels" rule so maybe something like:
The original version had PW. I ended up dropping it due to wanting to assume complete transparency. It went something like this:
Feat Rogue 1/ Monk 2/ Feat Rogue +1/ Fighter 2/ Crusader 2/ PW 2/ Ranger 1/ Slayer 9
1) Improved init, Standstill
2) Monastic Training(Slayer)
3) Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist
4) Wpn Focus(longspear)
5) Mage Slayer
6) PMP, Serpent Strike
9) Precise Swing, Power Attack
10) Practiced Manifester
11) Track
12) Tashalatora
15) Robliar's Gambit
18) Defensive Sweep
If starting at low levels, I'd just go with my 2.0. That's kinda what it's optimized for.
I would not consider a single feat in there dead weight. Defensive sweep and pierce magical protection are strong choices for the last two feats. I rather like this fighter 20 (even if I like my multiclass abomination more :D).
I assume you're going reach weapon+armor spikes?
My concerns with Defensive Sweep and Pierce Magical Protection:
1. Defensive Sweep: The way I see it, it is better for Lockdown to take as little damage as possible to better ensure a lock for the benefit of his teammates. One of the benefits of performing the lock at maximum reach is that most enemies will not be able to reach you. Attacking at range with a bow or spell will provoke AoO's. In this scenario, Defensive Sweep will be useless. The only time I can see it being worthwhile is if Lockdown moves into a group of enemies, and one of them happens to be adjacent to him. Even then, the benefit seems too small to me.
2. Pierce Magical Protection: Lockdown really has no way to identify spells. Unless someone devotes maximum ranks in Spellcraft (DC = 20+spell level), you don't know what spells are in place already. I'm not sure how they intended for the feat to be used, since the character must intend to dispel spells that buff up AC. But, how does the warrior know this? How does he know that Bite of the Werebear adds to AC, instead of assuming it just gives the caster claws and makes him much stronger and tougher? Same with Haste. The caster is really quick, but how do I know that I can dispel that? I don't know, maybe I'm making it more complicated than it actually is. But I know I wouldn't want to waste an action trying to dispel something that doesn't buff AC, and that may lead to metagaming, because my fighter isn't well-versed in spell effects.
Well, dumping Steadfast Determination of course makes me think of picking up Resolute to help fix your Will save for when you really, really need it - given that it's an AoO heavy build, Deft Opportunist helps make up some of the difference on attack bonus, right? I'd also second Pierce Magical Protection. Given your enormous reach, I'm not as sure about Defensive Sweep, though it's not like I'd object to it either!
I'm normally not a big fan of Resolute. That hit to your actual BAB hurts in a lot of my builds that take the Weapon Focus feat chain. In this particular build, you'd only lose access to Robilar's Gambit (which requires +12 BAB), and you'd cap your Power Attack for the round. Not too bad to almost guarantee a Will save.
I just posted my methods of using polymorph chain, because in post number 871 you just said that I am probably the type who keeps a bunch of forms handy I thought you meant it offensively. Now when I think of it, you probably didn't mean to sound offensive. At least that's the image I've gotten of you while reading this thread.
I mean there are a lot of things that come out buffed so its safe to include in your base tactics "dispel his effects if there are any". I don't think its that large a deductive leap "In game" for a character that has been fighting in this style for some time.
Though I gotta say, Khan, armor class is an rules abstraction and no character has a conscious concept of it "in game" I kinda got that idea from "k's revised necro handbook" it was there used about hit dice but I think the same applies to ac in this case. So it kind of a moot point really but...
"Oh snap! This dude grew claws and fur, maybe I can smack him out of it!" If you know you have the ablility to smack people out of thier magic occasionally.
My problem is that it costs a standard action. You can instead get a Full Attack or use Overpowering Attack. Since there is an opportunity cost, I'd like to know that I'm attempting PMP on a legal spell instead of wasting my action. Playing the character in the way that seems intuitive (I've knocked out buffs before, so I'll try again) can lead to just that, wasted actions.
Despite that concern and the fact I think a mage is better suited to do it, I have no problem putting it in. It is a powerful option for a melee character, and I know not everyone worries about the same things I do
.I'm still looking at other options though.
My concerns with Defensive Sweep and Pierce Magical Protection:
1. Defensive Sweep: The way I see it, it is better for Lockdown to take as little damage as possible to better ensure a lock for the benefit of his teammates. One of the benefits of performing the lock at maximum reach is that most enemies will not be able to reach you. Attacking at range with a bow or spell will provoke AoO's. In this scenario, Defensive Sweep will be useless. The only time I can see it being worthwhile is if Lockdown moves into a group of enemies, and one of them happens to be adjacent to him. Even then, the benefit seems too small to me.
2. Pierce Magical Protection: Lockdown really has no way to identify spells. Unless someone devotes maximum ranks in Spellcraft (DC = 20+spell level), you don't know what spells are in place already. I'm not sure how they intended for the feat to be used, since the character must intend to dispel spells that buff up AC. But, how does the warrior know this? How does he know that Bite of the Werebear adds to AC, instead of assuming it just gives the caster claws and makes him much stronger and tougher? Same with Haste. The caster is really quick, but how do I know that I can dispel that? I don't know, maybe I'm making it more complicated than it actually is. But I know I wouldn't want to waste an action trying to dispel something that doesn't buff AC, and that may lead to metagaming, because my fighter isn't well-versed in spell effects.
I'm normally not a big fan of Resolute. That hit to your actual BAB hurts in a lot of my builds that take the Weapon Focus feat chain. In this particular build, you'd only lose access to Robilar's Gambit (which requires +12 BAB), and you'd cap your Power Attack for the round. Not too bad to almost guarantee a Will save.
PMP: you have no real use for standard actions. There are probably times when you end up moving and just using a standard attack option. It will cost nothing to use PMP then. It's not the first action, but those times when you just can't seem to hit or have a standard action just floating around.
Defensive Sweep: You've evaluated this one pretty well. It would still be a nice thing to generate an extra AoO every now and then.
Neither of the feats is crucial to the build, but you want a fighter 20, and have already grabbed all the crucial feats. Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) could be handy.
Aelryinth, I know I am limiting myself on purpose. I do that for many reason. One of them is my fellow players, I want them to have fun too instead of me stealing the spotlight (they aren't optimizers to say the least...). Another one is that I just can't be bothered with all the bookkeeping.
I just posted my methods of using polymorph chain, because in post number 871 you just said that I am probably the type who keeps a bunch of forms handy I thought you meant it offensively. Now when I think of it, you probably didn't mean to sound offensive. At least that's the image I've gotten of you while reading this thread.
Correct, I wasn't picking on anyone, 'you' was everyone out there, pretty generic.
Defensive Sweep is the last feat in Lockdown's build because of the adjacent req. It's primarily in there for us inside an AMF when you have a caster locked down. In that event, you are likely right next to them regardless, and if they move they get smacked, and if they don't move they get smacked. Sure, you could swap it out for Power Attack and probably not miss it a bit.
PMP is for use on Standard Actions. It costs nothing to use if you have a Standard Action. If you roll a 17 and miss something's AC, it's a very good use of ability, and it's safe to assume that any spell he uses regularly he can identify on others (such as Haste). A 100% ability to get rid of all sorts of combat buffs is a great tool in any fighter's arsenal.
If ID"ing other spells is a problem, you've got a mage there to ID them for him, or simply make a list of common spells he can recognize, since he's going to be picking from a select list.
THen again, if you don't like the feat, it's entirely optional and let's you go in another direction. I just like the 100% dispel effect. Makes me feel warm and tingly all over knowing I can really ruin a spellcaster's day.
"Yes, Mr. Cleric, you just lost your Shield of Faith, Greater Magic Vestment x 2, Prayer, Consecrate, Bite of the Werebear, Polycheese and Barkskin. Oh, and I ignored all those AC bonuses when swinging at you too...what's your new AC?"
===Aelryinth
IF I may ask, how are you personalizing it?
===Aelryinth
Sure, no problem.
I'm playing it as a warforged going straight fighter to 20, just to point out that the fighter isn't so bad afterall. I usually played casters before because the melee classes bored me too much since I had the feeling I was doing the same all the time and didn't get anything new over the long run.
Your Lock build has convinced me to play a fighter, and I really like it.
feats:
1: Mithral Body (warforged sub level)
1: Apprentice: spellcaster (suits my character background)
1: EWP: Spiked Chain
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Close Quarter Fighting
4: Stand Still
6: Martial Study: Foehammer (I really like it)
6: Deft Opportunist
8: Power Attack
9: Mage Slayer
10: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
12: Improved Initiative
12: Robilar's Gambit
14: Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain (Maybe a bit late?)
15: Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
16: Overpowering Attack
18: Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
18: Defensive Sweep
20: Martial Study: Shadow Stride
I think this is one of the nicer builds to make the lock build, but I'm open for any remarks.
I'm playing this character in a party consisting of an Avarial Wizard, A Telepath Kalastar, and a Changeling Necropolion Undead. It's working quite good but at level 10 it will be much better due to the stance, can't wait to try it out in a real campaign.
I also have UMD as a class skill, as well as tumble, due to Apprentice: Spellcaster and the alternate class feature from cityscape that let's you swap out ride for tumble.
The only problem I really seem to have is fighting in rather small rooms where I can't benifit from my good reach, or fighting large enemies when I'm out of Potions of Enlarge.
Oh yea, a small note, in the FRC there is an item named Potion belt, which lets you draw a potion as a free action once per round. It's a mundane item and it stores up to 6 potions or 12 if you have the masterwork version. It's really great.
Cheers
/Giel
You should probably take Improved Initiative earlier if you can, but that's a flavor call. Kinda weak feat to grab at level 12. I'd swap it with Deft Opportunist, as the additional +4 TH is more useful at higher levels. I'd swap out Defensive Sweep for Power Attack, unless you are intent on going the AMF route.
===Aelryinth
Thanks for the feedback.
/Giel
Before I found this thread I had started working on a warblade that was very similar, yet not quite as good at locking down. He's a little more versatile in regular battle, and I just like the flavor a bit more. The problem I'm having is finding a good way to output damage. The feats I'm using are as follows: (DM okay'd the Power Attack bonus feat)
Feats:
1. EWP Spiked Chain
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Stand Still
*5. Combat Reflexes
6. Martial Study (Devoted Spirit)
9. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
*9. Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind)
12. Robilar's Gambit
*13. Power Attack
15. Deft Opportunist
*17. Improved Initiative
18. Defensive Sweep
I looked at the Howland Reed build on page 10, and was pleased to find that his feat selection was very similar to mine. I do like my decisions a bit more though, as they compliment my maneuver choices more. As I said earlier the problem I'm having is maximizing damage output. My stats are:
STR:12
DEX: 20 Temporary 26
CON: 18
INT: 20
WIS: 9 Temporary 8
CHA: 9
My DM has a rule that for every score over 25 you must decrese one stat by 1, that's why there's the temporary 8 on wisdom. I am starting this character at level 15, so I have used 3 level increases on my stats. The stats were rolled.
My TH on regular attacks with my +1 Devoted Spirit Diamond Mind Spiked Chain is +27/+22/+17 when in thicket of blades stance. The reason for the Devoted Spirit Diamond Mind is that at level twenty I'll be in Thicket of Blades and Stance of Alacrity at all times, granting me a permanent +6 TH. My damage thus far is a measly 2d4 + 1 Crit X2. My TH for AoO's is +36/+31/+26, DMG 2d4 + 5, Crit X2.
For Regular attacks, that's an average damage of 6, for AoO's it's 10. If I power attack 10 on both of them it makes average damage 26 and 30 respectively. The problem becomes hitting opponents now, as my DM likes to throw high AC NPC's at us, and power attacking gets to be a hassle to hit. But my stand still DC's are going to be measly if I don't power attack. And I'm pretty low on cash. Books allowed are the Completes, Spell Compendium, core, ToB, Magic of Incarnum, Dieties and Demigods, Savage Species, Sword and Fist, Tome of Magic, Arms and Equipment Guide, and MIC. Any ideas?
For a Dex build, I'd normally suggest the old Shadow Hand Stance + Shadow Blade tactic...pick up Assassin's Stance somehow (feat or multi), then Shadow Blade...once you hit Wrb20 you can even dual stance it. But it's going to be feat intensive...what's your maneuvers look like? Could you go into Master of Nine?
Otherwise...probably money/magic is your only option. Str enhancers, pimp out your chain with some elemental damage (Vicious, if you have the HP).
Another thought...have you considered Deadly Defense from Comp. Scoundrel? Only 1d6, but every lil' bit helps.
Don't forget that a Warblade at higher levels gets to add his Int bonus TH/DMg on AoO's, I believe. It's one of the stronger abilities for him.
Is Spiked Chain a Shadow Weapon? I think the Dex to dmg only applies to Shadow weapons...
Because of the Stand Still, a Fighter generally works better for an AoO build for a Warblade, unless you use your Int bonus to make up for specialization. The Warblade's shtick is generally to do really, really good on standard attacks (with manuvers). To work a standstill/AoO build, you need fixed dmg to the moon, which isn't consistent with manuvers. I like how you got your Int up, but you might have to swap some ability scores around.
Also, there's no excuse for not having at least a Str Enhancing item at that level. +1 dmg from str...that's pretty bad
Generally, people work stand still into a warblade build after some uber charging stuff. I'd definitely switch to a str mode instead of Dex, just keep Dex in a respectable 16-18 range. remember, the most dmg a warblade does is generally off manuvers...your Stand Still and THicket is 'extra creamy filling.'
===Aelryinth
I calculated the int bonus in the models that I presented in my post.
The other reason that I am maxing out dex is because it synergizes AC and TH. As I said in the first post, our enemies will have very high AC, thus the problem with Power Attacking. The dex based build is probably the best option for the campaign, as I already have taken as many magic items as I can to boost my AC (which, after the dex bonus is 25). The reason that I keep it dex based is because most damage is done through maneuvers. Which an extra +2 or +3 from strength will not help much with, but an extra +8 to AC will.
I guess what I should have been asking is if there's a way to make Power Attack returns bigger on a weapon, or if it's possible to keep a foe flatfooted so that I could take advantage of Battle Cunning and be able to power attack. I was thinking Press The Advantage as a stance, just move around them constantly to flank them, but if there's a way to keep them flanked or flat footed that would solve my problem. Thanks for responding
Don't forget that a Warblade at higher levels gets to add his Int bonus TH/DMg on AoO's, I believe. It's one of the stronger abilities for him.
Y'know, I did kinda forget that...there's another +5 on your AoOs, not too shabby.
Is Spiked Chain a Shadow Weapon? I think the Dex to dmg only applies to Shadow weapons...
Yep, spiked chain is a Shadow Hand weapon. AND a finesse weapon, so Deadly Defense works as well.
remember, the most dmg a warblade does is generally off manuvers...your Stand Still and THicket is 'extra creamy filling.'
Word. In my build, I used maneuvers (Stone Dragon strikes, etc) to feed the "lockdown" concept, but I never pretended I could match the DCs of an Overpowering Strike fighter. I just thought I didn't need to...instead of locking them forever, my preference was to lock them where I could and destroy 'em where I couldn't.
(although with a dedicated Str/fixed damage build, I'd bet I can get them reasonable enough to be useful...
)As far as keeping the flank/flatfoot...well, there's the Clarion Commander tactical (that let's you use Perpetual Flank)...but that's what, 2-3 feats? It's a bit much, and I don't know if you even use White Raven. There's Adaptable Flanker, but that's also 2 feats (need Vexing Flanker). I'm told the ruling on this is that you can flank with yourself.
I'm tapped for now. I'll check my books when I get home.
TH normally is +28/+23/+18 and damage is still 2d4 + 1
AoO is +37/+32/+27 damage is 2d4 + 6
I apparently can't add properly :P
The Clarion Commander and Adaptable Flanker options probably won't work, as I don't use much White Raven and I won't be fighting with allies too near probably.
The Leap attack idea could work well probably.. In an actual fight what do you think would be the best way to do it and get my enemy at a safe range again?
EDIT: You just have to be threatening your enemy to use Leap attack, not adjacent, I can jump into the square ten feet from them and deal lots of damage. The problem is that it has to be part of a charge, which means it won't work for stand still.
EDIT2: Ugh stand still has a prereq of str 13... mmk I'll play with the stats and feats a bit then..
STR: 14 Temporary 18
DEX: 18 Temporary 24
CON: 18
INT: 17
WIS: 9
CHA: 9
I also have 39k gold to spend now
And if I stay in Press The Advantage/Thicket of Blades at 20th level, then I can switch out Defensive sweep for Evasive Reflexes, and change my weapon to Devoted Spirit White Raven Chain, so I have a new feat and extra gold.
Feats:
1. EWP Spiked Chain
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Martial Study (FoeHammer)
*5. Combat Reflexes
6. Stand Still
9. Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
*9. Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind)
12. Robilar's Gambit
*13. Power Attack
15. Deft Opportunist
*17. Improved Initiative
18. Evasive Reflexes
AC is down to 22
My New To Hit's and Average Damages are:
Normal, +27/+22/+17 DMG 2d4 + 4 Crit X2
AoO, +35/+30/+25 DMG 2d4 + 8 Crit X2
Which means that the average Stand Still DC, with a power attack of 10 will garner a DC of 43. I like that :D.
AoO is +37/+32/+27 damage is 2d4 + 6
forgive my just jumping in here, but are not all AoO attacks at full BaB?
Any other thoughts on this? I'd be happy to hear it.
cheers
/Giel
And Evasive Reflexes also negates charges with Thicket of Blades + Evasive Reflexes. Someone is charging me, they enter my threatened area and I move out of the way, no charge, and then I can make them stand still, they're locked.
If you have Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike, it negates Full Attacks, and allows you to approach or retreat from creatures with reach without AOOs.
I think neither of these feats do what you suggest. Can you explain?
Sir_Kenny;
No problem.
Also, say you're attacked by an Ogre which you can't approach without AOOs; You take a 5' step closer every time he attacks you and end up adjacent without any AOOs.
Oh, and RAW is ever nicer, since with Karmic/Robilar's you get an AOO whenever you're hit/attacked... You can't always take them, like if you're being attacked at range (because you don't threaten...), but you can still do the 5' step.
Sure. You get hit (Karmic Strike) or even missed (Robilar's Gambit), and instead of taking the AOO, you move back 5'.
But both feats ONLY grant "you may make an attack of opportunity...". Not "you may make an attack of opportunity OR do whatever you like...", Right?
Also note that these AoO's are not like standard AoO's. They do not interrupt the events that trigger them. The attacks happen at the same time.
As for interrupting actions, I agree. But you're missing the point...
Full Attack Starts:
Attack 1 - Miss
Robilar's Gambit - 5' Step Back
Attack 2 - Out of range, take a 5' Step to close, make attack, Hit
Robilar's Gambit - 5' Step Back
Attacks 3+ - Out of range, no more 5' Steps, Full Attack over
Full Attack Starts:
Attack 1 - Miss or Hit
Robilar's Gambit - 5' Step Back
Attack 2 - Out of Range, take a 5' Step to close --
Thicket of Blades - 5' Step Back
Attack 2+ - Out of range, no more 5' Steps, Full Attack over.
And the way I read was that you only could move after the whole attack action, so thanks for clearing this up for me. Now it's better then I first thought.
Or you could dual stance thicket of blades and press the advantage as Warblade 20 and then every time the 5 foot step occured you could take an extra 5.
Evasive Reflexes may be taken whenever you get an AOO, so that bit works just fine.
The attacks granted by RG and KS are not normal AoO's, so I wonder if they can be combined with Evasive Reflexes.
I mention this as both RG and KS do not interrupt the attack as a normal AoO would. RG and KS both specify they are simultaneous attacks. Thus they are not normal AoO's. Even if Evasive Reflexes is applied, you can only take one 5' step per turn.
The attacks granted by RG and KS are not normal AoO's, so I wonder if they can be combined with Evasive Reflexes.
I mention this as both RG and KS do not interrupt the attack as a normal AoO would. RG and KS both specify they are simultaneous attacks. Thus they are not normal AoO's. Even if Evasive Reflexes is applied, you can only take one 5' step per turn.
Yes they are. The feats don't read "your foe provokes an attack of opportunity that is different from normal," they read "your foe provokes an attack of opportunity."
Yes they are. The feats don't read "your foe provokes an attack of opportunity that is different from normal," they read "your foe provokes an attack of opportunity."
KS specifically says you hit "AT THE SAME" time as your attacker, which is different that normal AoO's.
RG says "they provoke attacks of opportunity after your foe's attack." Again AFTER the attack, not before.
So they are not standard AoO's.
You also cannot take multiple 5 foot steps, so these feats do not work as Sir_Kenny and CantripN suggest.
KS specifically says you hit "AT THE SAME" time as your attacker, which is different that normal AoO's.
RG says "they provoke attacks of opportunity after your foe's attack." Again AFTER the attack, not before.
So they are not standard AoO's.
You also cannot take multiple 5 foot steps, so these feats do not work as Sir_Kenny and CantripN suggest.
That’s totally irrelevant. There isn’t a special classification for "Hit at the same time AoO's" or "Hit right after AoO's", they are all just AoO's. Similarly, there’s no limit on how many 5 foot steps you can make as part of evasive reflexes, that limit only applies when making them as free actions during your turn.
Robilar's only lets you move after their attack resolves, so you don't get to avoid the attack, just the follow-ups.
Thicket of Blades is a nice way to avoid AoO's if you have reach on your opponent, or just want some extra positioning.
Getting to make a DC 40 Tumble check for EVERY 5' step you get in a round. Mmm. Ouch, that could get really nice movement wise. I'd probably house rule it to only your first 5' step myself, but RAW, yes, you'd be able to do it. Talk about mobility...
===Aelryinth
Most of the other 5' step abilities have other triggering conditions that, if liberal enough, could be abused multiple times. But just as AoO's don't count against your iteratives, 5' Steps of Opportunity shouldn't count against your movement.
===Aelryinth
No implying or interpretation needed. But feel free to ask Cust Serv?
Other feats state you get multiple 5' steps. This feat does not. Thus you only get one.
No implying or interpretation needed. But feel free to ask Cust Serv?
You are in luck, this question has already been answered by Sage/CustServ :
Q: The Tome of Battle includes a feat named "Evasive Reflexes". This feat is raising a lot of questions on the message boards. Here are the main questions that I hope you can shed some light on:
1. If I have both Evasive Reflexes and Combat Reflexes, and I am normally entitled to four attacks of opportunity per round, what is the maximum number of 5-foot-steps per round that I can make using Evasive Reflexes?
2. Do the 5-foot-step(s) that I make using Evasive Reflexes count against the total number of attacks of opportunity that I can make in a single round?
Thanks in advance.
A:1) 4. You can take a five foot step each time an enemy provokes.
2) Yes they do! Essentially you are replacing the attack with the move, but it still uses up an attack of opportunity!
From the Q&A thread : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611
Thanks!
~Brak
Human
Cleric14/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator5
Cleric1-10/Crusader1/Cleric11-14/RKV1-5
2 Flaws
Feats:
1.EWP Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Extend Spell
3. Stand Still
6. Persist Spell
9. Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell
12. Robilar's Gambit
15. Initiate of Mystra
18. Deft Opportunist
The strategy: Being not only a lock build, but also an effective 18th level cleric and 13th level initiator, you'll be a very potent utility. When it comes to locking, he holds up just as well. At twenty the tactic is essentially, get in thicket of blades, cast an antimagic field against a caster, or an opponent with lots of magic armor, persist righteous might to gain a reach of 20 ft., cast repulsion for 5-ft. protection, your items should have your charisma check up high enough to do so. Assume you've raised your AMF charisma to +26 to persist righteous might. Now that your opponents magic armor and abilities are useless, approach the situation as a normal lock situation; with the added ability to cast in the AMF. Harm them, Miracle if you want to. Create a stone wall around your AMF area, any kind of damage spell you want, or use your level 13 IL for seventh level maneuvers. Or just beat them down using stand still and all the other lock goodies. Whichever way you prefer is fine, and it will be a potent strategy.
Any issues? Comments? Can this be considered an effective lockdown 3.0 if I write up stats manuevers etc.? Am I an idiot and the entire thing fails miserably? Let me know.
DMM(Persist): RKV's bonus swift action + Ordained Champion's free quicken would be better
Initiate of Mystra: God... I hate that feat so much. Fine, but also obscurish and RP specific.
Feats qualified for with spells: Not a good idea IMO.
Here's the base I'd use:
Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/ Ordained Champion 5/ RKV 10
or Wiz 6/ Fighter 1/ Spellsword 3/ EK 10
If we want a casting lock.
Cleric 4/ OC 5/ Crusader 1/ RKV 10
or
Wiz 6/ Crusader 2/ Spellsword 3/ EK 9
If the flaws are a problem you can get rid of Robilar's(ouch, I know) and Deft opportunist. Again I'm not sure how the free quicken is superior optimization-wise. On Initiate of Mystra, it can be optional if you don't want Mystra as your patron diety, but it adds a ton to the overall effectiveness of the build. And what feats did I qualify for with spells?
EDIT: Oy, EWP requires BAB of 1. I hate stupid mistakes like that... Well, you can switch EWP and Stand Still around and the feat progression will look like this:
1. Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Extend Spell
3. EWP Spiked Chain
6. Persist Spell
9. Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell
12. Robilar's Gambit
15. Initiate of Mystra
18. Deft Opportunist
Non flaw campaign feats look like this:
1. Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
3. EWP Spiked Chain
6. Power Attack
9. Extend Spell
12. Persist Spell
15. DMM(Persist)
18. Initiate of Mystra
Less optimal, but still garners an 18 CL, 16 BAB, and 13 IL.
DMM(Persist): Uses 7 turn attempts a shot. How high are your stats? Unless you're stacking nightsticks you're not getting more than Divine power without extra turning. Stacking nightsticks is frowned upon. Same source and all. With 20 cha (14 base, +6 item), a nightstick, and a reliquary holy symbol we can barely pull off two DMM(persists). With swift action divine power from ordained champion we could spend say 4 turn attempts on bonus swift actions and just cast four divine powers if the need arises. The bonus feats from ordained champion also help a lot.
Divine Lockdown
Human
Cleric14/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator5
Cleric1-10/Crusader1/Cleric11-14/RKV1-5
2 Flaws
Feats:
1.EWP Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Extend Spell
3. Stand Still
6. Persist Spell
9. Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell
12. Robilar's Gambit
15. Initiate of Mystra
18. Deft Opportunist
The strategy: Being not only a lock build, but also an effective 18th level cleric and 13th level initiator, you'll be a very potent utility. When it comes to locking, he holds up just as well. At twenty the tactic is essentially, get in thicket of blades, cast an antimagic field against a caster, or an opponent with lots of magic armor, persist righteous might to gain a reach of 20 ft., cast repulsion for 5-ft. protection, your items should have your charisma check up high enough to do so. Assume you've raised your AMF charisma to +26 to persist righteous might. Now that your opponents magic armor and abilities are useless, approach the situation as a normal lock situation; with the added ability to cast in the AMF. Harm them, Miracle if you want to. Create a stone wall around your AMF area, any kind of damage spell you want, or use your level 13 IL for seventh level maneuvers. Or just beat them down using stand still and all the other lock goodies. Whichever way you prefer is fine, and it will be a potent strategy.
Any issues? Comments? Can this be considered an effective lockdown 3.0 if I write up stats manuevers etc.? Am I an idiot and the entire thing fails miserably? Let me know.
When I post a build for generic campaigns, I really, heavily emphasize the generic.
I'd suggest removing both your flaws. That would make it more palatable to more campaigns.
Combining a class with fluff devoted to a goddess of death/magic to one of magic pure, and from different game worlds, is asking for trouble. Not only are you crossing worlds, but gods. So now you went from 'generic divine' to 'crazy specific patchwork' divine.
I would be HAPPY to endorse a Divine Lockdown build, but my rule is very simple...it can be transported into ANY campaign. That means no deity specific feats. Ruby Knight Vindicator is stained not because it's devoted to Wee Jas, but because it ALSO has a broken mechanic attached to it (burn turns for swift actions). This alone will serve to make many DM's simply disallow it.
Thus, you may want to do a PrC that advances cleric casting as a more generic class (ordained champion, etc.)
If you want to put caveats or alternate alignment builds into place around the 'generic' base, that's fine...it's called adapting the core build. But the core build should be able to be picked up and placed anywhere without worrying about the DM.
For instance, I'd definitely put your Initiate of Mystra under 'elective FR feats', and find something else to use. If the build is meant to showcase how it dovetails with the feat, then you have Knight Lockdown of Mystra, not 'Divine Lockdown'. Alternatively, post a strong point that the reason you are using the Vindicator is because it advances IL, not for the controversial class benefits, unless those class benefits are needed for your build.
Remember, generic...keep it simple, widely appealing.
Stay away from 'broken' rules and mechanics, like nightsticks. If it's controversial, it shouldn't be in a generic build. Persistent spell isn't bad if you don't also optimize turn attempts, which also takes away from other parts of the build (which is one of the reasons why the Cleric Tank Melee isn't all that effective...hard to persist all them spells).
Suggest default domains from the Core book. Any 'super specialist' domains should be in Recommendations. BUild generic, let the DM allow things in.
Assume Elite Stat Array. This will immediately show if you have MAD or not. Let the campaign determine dice/point buy/assign stats...don't do it for them. Posting a build with 32 or 36 point buy is vastly different then assuming a 25 point campaign, especially if you can't deviate, like the Elite Array. The Array also showcases stats in order of importance.
While gear is highly situational, if there is gear that is central to the build, you need to include it, and it needs to not be out of place (like nightsticks). Note that one man's default custom item is another's 'made by the DMG' or another's 'campaign specific only' (things I've all heard about a 1/day Anti Magic Torc). However, the Torc itself is not under fire for rules bending, it's something for people to complain about. Nightsticks don't get off so easy.
So, go for it! I'll be happy to post a link to it at the front.
===================
Oh, and Archerpower, I don't know where your 2.0 Lockdown post is now, but if you want to post the build here, I'll post on the front page to it here.
Please include a disclaimer on it about how Decisive Strike works, since it is so essential to your build. Make a note that one of the key points of the build is to have double dmg AoO's by level ten, at cost to some staying and hitting power. I Would actually call it something like The Quick Lockdown. Calling it 2.0 makes it seem like I rebuilt it, not you, and it's nowhere near as straight forwards as my build.
==Aelryinth
Also, I'm going to keep RKV, as I don't use it to gain the swift action, I only take it to level five.
When I post a build for generic campaigns, I really, heavily emphasize the generic.
I'd suggest removing both your flaws. That would make it more palatable to more campaigns.
Combining a class with fluff devoted to a goddess of death/magic to one of magic pure, and from different game worlds, is asking for trouble. Not only are you crossing worlds, but gods. So now you went from 'generic divine' to 'crazy specific patchwork' divine.
I would be HAPPY to endorse a Divine Lockdown build, but my rule is very simple...it can be transported into ANY campaign. That means no deity specific feats. Ruby Knight Vindicator is stained not because it's devoted to Wee Jas, but because it ALSO has a broken mechanic attached to it (burn turns for swift actions). This alone will serve to make many DM's simply disallow it.
Thus, you may want to do a PrC that advances cleric casting as a more generic class (ordained champion, etc.)
If you want to put caveats or alternate alignment builds into place around the 'generic' base, that's fine...it's called adapting the core build. But the core build should be able to be picked up and placed anywhere without worrying about the DM.
For instance, I'd definitely put your Initiate of Mystra under 'elective FR feats', and find something else to use. If the build is meant to showcase how it dovetails with the feat, then you have Knight Lockdown of Mystra, not 'Divine Lockdown'. Alternatively, post a strong point that the reason you are using the Vindicator is because it advances IL, not for the controversial class benefits, unless those class benefits are needed for your build.
Remember, generic...keep it simple, widely appealing.
Stay away from 'broken' rules and mechanics, like nightsticks. If it's controversial, it shouldn't be in a generic build. Persistent spell isn't bad if you don't also optimize turn attempts, which also takes away from other parts of the build (which is one of the reasons why the Cleric Tank Melee isn't all that effective...hard to persist all them spells).
Suggest default domains from the Core book. Any 'super specialist' domains should be in Recommendations. BUild generic, let the DM allow things in.
Assume Elite Stat Array. This will immediately show if you have MAD or not. Let the campaign determine dice/point buy/assign stats...don't do it for them. Posting a build with 32 or 36 point buy is vastly different then assuming a 25 point campaign, especially if you can't deviate, like the Elite Array. The Array also showcases stats in order of importance.
While gear is highly situational, if there is gear that is central to the build, you need to include it, and it needs to not be out of place (like nightsticks). Note that one man's default custom item is another's 'made by the DMG' or another's 'campaign specific only' (things I've all heard about a 1/day Anti Magic Torc). However, the Torc itself is not under fire for rules bending, it's something for people to complain about. Nightsticks don't get off so easy.
So, go for it! I'll be happy to post a link to it at the front.
I agree with everything except elite array. 25 pb before elite array.
Oh, and Archerpower, I don't know where your 2.0 Lockdown post is now, but if you want to post the build here, I'll post on the front page to it here.
Please include a disclaimer on it about how Decisive Strike works, since it is so essential to your build. Make a note that one of the key points of the build is to have double dmg AoO's by level ten, at cost to some staying and hitting power. I Would actually call it something like The Quick Lockdown. Calling it 2.0 makes it seem like I rebuilt it, not you, and it's nowhere near as straight forwards as my build.
==Aelryinth
I've got blue text in the build noting the "controvercialness" (spelling?). As for the name, I wanted to put my expertise where my smart mouth was and 2.0 was the first thing to come to my mind. You can rename it if you'd like. I'll just copy and paste the code onto my next post.
The tactic is to move up through sudden leap or other methods and drop a decisive strike through the longspear and wait. Standstill means they likely won't move. Mageslayer is good so that casters are less likely to escape. Most levels have 4+int skill points, so you could substitute for the trapfinder.
Note: The damage is not really up to CO standards, so this build should not be used without someone else to bring the smack. This build would be great to let the daring outlaw in the party get full attacks off. There is also a lack of ranged power aside from having dex as a decent stat and decent bab. Try to avoid ranged combat.
Assumptions: XP penalties are stupid. I don't account for XP penalties, so if you play with them you will be forced to play a human, half elf, or any other race that has favored class(any) or favored class(warblade). I'm also assuming decisive strike can replace flurry of blows for the purpose of serpent strike. It's a very small logical leap, but ask your DM just in case.
The Build
Feat Rogue 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Crusader 2/ Warblade 10/ Witch Slayer 2
Feat RogueUA 1/ Monk 2/ Feat Rogue +1/ CrusaderToB 1/ WarbladeToB 1/ Fighter 1/ Crusader +1/ Warblade +3/ Fighter +1/ Warblade +1/ Witch SlayerToM 2/ Warblade + 5
Level Feats:
1) StandstillXPH
3) Deft OpportunistCV
6) Serpent StrikeECS
9) Adaptive StyleToB
12) Stormguard WarriorToB
15) Robilar's GambitPH2
18) Defensive SweepPH2
Bonus feats:
1) Feat Rogue 1) Power Attack
2) Monk 1) Improved Grapple, IUS
3) Monk 2) Combat Reflexes
4) Feat Rogue 2) Wpn Focus(longspear)
7) Fighter 1) Mage SlayerCA
12) Warblade 5) IronheartToB
15) Fighter 2) Pierce Magical ProtectionCA
19) Warblade 9) Improved Initiative
Notable class abilities:
1) Trapfinding
3) Evasion
4) Spell Reflection
6) Weapon Aptitude
10) Uncanny Dodge
14) Mettle
16) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Alternative class features: decisive strikePH2, Spell ReflectionCM
Feat Rogue 2/ Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Crusader 2/ Warblade 10/ Witch Slayer 2
Feat RogueUA 1/ Monk 2/ Feat Rogue +1/ CrusaderToB 1/ WarbladeToB 1/ Fighter 1/ Crusader +1/ Warblade +3/ Fighter +1/ Warblade +1/ Witch SlayerToM 2/ Warblade + 5
Level Feats:
1) StandstillXPH
3) Deft OpportunistCV
6) Serpent StrikeECS
9) Adaptive StyleToB
12) Stormguard WarriorToB
15) Robilar's GambitPH2
18) Defensive SweepPH2
Bonus feats:
1) Feat Rogue 1) Power Attack
2) Monk 1) Improved Grapple, IUS
3) Monk 2) Combat Reflexes
4) Feat Rogue 2) Wpn Focus(longspear)
7) Fighter 1) Mage SlayerCA
12) Warblade 5) IronheartToB
15) Fighter 2) Pierce Magical ProtectionCA
19) Warblade 9) Improved Initiative
Notable class abilities:
1) Trapfinding
3) Evasion
4) Spell Reflection
6) Weapon Aptitude
10) Uncanny Dodge
14) Mettle
16) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Alternative class features: decisive strikePH2, Spell ReflectionCM
Maneuvers
Maneuvers
Crusader 1 (IL 3): Stone Bones, Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, Shield Block, Crusader's Strike.
Warblade 1 (IL 3): Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap, Action Before Thought.
Warblade 2 (IL 5): Iron Heart Surge
Warblade 3 (IL 6): Emerald Razor
Warblade 4 (IL 7): Rabid Wolf Strike => Lightning Recovery
Warblade 5 (IL 9): Rapid Counter
Warblade 6 (IL 11): Sudden Leap => Crushing Vice
Warblade 7 (IL 12): Iron Heart Focus
Warblade 8 (IL 13): Action Before Thought => Quicksilver Motion
Warblade 9 (IL 14): Scything Blade
Warblade 10 (IL 15): Emerald Razor => Avalanche of Blades
Stances:
Crusader 1: Martial Spirit
Crusader 2: Thicket of Blades
Warblade 1: Punishing Stance
Warblade 4: Roots of the Mountain
Warblade 10: Stance of Alacrity
Sudden Leap/Moment of Alacrity/Quicksilver Motion are used to approach without losing the ability to make a Decisive Strike.
Lightning Recovery means your Decisive Strike won't miss.
Rapid Counter is 2 AOOs for one provoking action.
Scything Blade actually lets you make another attack when making your Decisive Strike, also at double damage!
Maneuvers
Crusader 1 (IL 3): Stone Bones, Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, Shield Block, Crusader's Strike.
Warblade 1 (IL 3): Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap, Action Before Thought.
Warblade 2 (IL 5): Iron Heart Surge
Warblade 3 (IL 6): Emerald Razor
Warblade 4 (IL 7): Rabid Wolf Strike => Lightning Recovery
Warblade 5 (IL 9): Rapid Counter
Warblade 6 (IL 11): Sudden Leap => Crushing Vice
Warblade 7 (IL 12): Iron Heart Focus
Warblade 8 (IL 13): Action Before Thought => Quicksilver Motion
Warblade 9 (IL 14): Scything Blade
Warblade 10 (IL 15): Emerald Razor => Avalanche of Blades
Stances:
Crusader 1: Martial Spirit
Crusader 2: Thicket of Blades
Warblade 1: Punishing Stance
Warblade 4: Roots of the Mountain
Warblade 10: Stance of Alacrity
Sudden Leap/Moment of Alacrity/Quicksilver Motion are used to approach without losing the ability to make a Decisive Strike.
Lightning Recovery means your Decisive Strike won't miss.
Rapid Counter is 2 AOOs for one provoking action.
Scything Blade actually lets you make another attack when making your Decisive Strike, also at double damage!
==Aelryinth
I meant being able to use Decisive Strike in armor...you ignore that facet while keeping the Serpent Strike qualifier. But I'll link to it anyway.
==Aelryinth
I've got a note in the stats section. It's not *that* critical IMO.
Alignment: Lawful any
Build: Cleric 14/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
Stats:
Str>Wis/Cha>Con>Dex>Int
25 Pt. Buy
Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 14
Elite Array
Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 14
(Whaddya know, they're the same...)
32 pt. Buy
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 14
These are just reccomended buy in's, you can choose your stats however you'd like. The reason I choose the order is: Strength is the most important part of the lockdown>Charisma is needed to fuel DMM{Persist), but Wisdom is needed to power your spells> Dexterity = AoO's> Con = Health> Int, Skills are nice for those not busy locking stuff down.
Str>Wis/Cha>Con>Dex>Int
25 Pt. Buy
Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 14
Elite Array
Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 14
(Whaddya know, they're the same...)
32 pt. Buy
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 14
These are just reccomended buy in's, you can choose your stats however you'd like. The reason I choose the order is: Strength is the most important part of the lockdown>Charisma is needed to fuel DMM{Persist), but Wisdom is needed to power your spells> Dexterity = AoO's> Con = Health> Int, Skills are nice for those not busy locking stuff down.
It also makes Robilar's almost worthless to you...you won't have enough AoO to Stand Still and use the Robilar's. Even with a +6 Dex enhancer, you're up to a max of 4 AoO.
Because of that, you might just want to dump Robilar's for something more useful to you.
Also, you're going to be going last. Lock them down after they commit to their actions, eh?
Other then that, solid enough. I'll edit in a post to it on the main page. I'm not an expert on choosing manuvers, I'll leave that to Howland Reed and the others for expert advice.
I'm not sure this is a true 'divine lock' since it's not got FULL cleric casting (i.e. in the same way of CoDzilla), but it's generic enough to get the job done.
===Aelryinth
Initiative: I had it set in my mind that I had stuck this in already with the gauntlets. Apparently I didn't explain it well, so it's got a bullet dedicated to it.
The purpose of the Divine Lock isn't to have full casting, it's to be a lockdown warrior fueled by divine spellcasting, and having the versatility of divine spellcasting. Plus he has three ninth level spells per day. That's pretty Divine.
Yep, I understand the stand still AoO thing, that's why it says "TH AoO" in the strategy section. I don't know what happened in my brain but I was basing Combat Reflexes off of Str when I posted. I actually took out all the dex boosting stuff about half an hour before the post thinking 'what is this used for'. Now I remember. Stupid brain.
Initiative: I had it set in my mind that I had stuck this in already with the gauntlets. Apparently I didn't explain it well, so it's got a bullet dedicated to it.
The purpose of the Divine Lock isn't to have full casting, it's to be a lockdown warrior fueled by divine spellcasting, and having the versatility of divine spellcasting. Plus he has three ninth level spells per day. That's pretty Divine.
Yes, it's a decent Gosh build. I'm not disputing that. A truly generic build would have been a cleric/20 with appropriate feats to do the lock, and then spells on top (trying to stay away from spells that are likely to be nerfed).
But! Nice work, and decently simple for those who want some prayer with their bloodspray.
===Aelryinth
Yes, it's a decent Gosh build. I'm not disputing that. A truly generic build would have been a cleric/20 with appropriate feats to do the lock, and then spells on top (trying to stay away from spells that are likely to be nerfed).
But! Nice work, and decently simple for those who want some prayer with their bloodspray.
===Aelryinth
Really? Since it *requires* ToB, I'd think 10 levels of RKV would be standard. Clerics get no bonus feats, so there's no way they are going to get thicket with feats.
A Cleric could certainly get the basic feats...but it would cost them so much optimizing of their buffs and spell power they are extremely unlikely to.
===Aelryinth
Oh, they need what, combat reflexes, Stand still, martial study and martial stance?
A Cleric could certainly get the basic feats...but it would cost them so much optimizing of their buffs and spell power they are extremely unlikely to.
===Aelryinth
Looking through 2.0, here's the *essential* feats:
Standstill
Combat Reflexes
Martial Study
Martial Stance
4 out of a cleric's 7 feats.
It can get the "core" of the build, but that doesn't work so well because it basically eliminates DMM(persist) as a viable option and can't do comparable front lining without DMM(persist) or extra rounds.
I stand by Cleric 4/ Crusader 1/ Ordained Champion 5/ RKV 10 being needed as the base for a divine lock. You're a combatant, not a spellcaster.
Basically, I agree.
Mordenkainen's Magic Disjunction. Your +11 Will save will get you rocked. You have to make a save for each item you have, each save failed means one item lost.
18 base Int
+4 for levels
+6 for headband
= 28.....+9 modifier
10 + 9 lvl + 9 int = 28
28-11 = 17
Each time you roll less than 17, you just lost an item. 85% chance to lose each piece of gear. Once you lose your Helm of mind blank or your boots of flight, he can tear your a** a new one. Never mess with an angry wizard who is willing to break your gear to kill you.
Also, be scared of a druid who will use shapechange and will go into grapples with you. Your feats geared towards the spiked chain won't avail you in a grapple, and you cannot hope to compete against the size and strength modifiers which a druid can put to use against you. I hate to tell you this, but the higher level a fighter gets, the more he needs strong spellcaster support. A high level fighter will never beat a high level prepared spell caster unless that caster does something remarkably stupid or the fighter catches him sleeping.
On a nicer note, I'm with you on the "invincible druid" thing. Druids are a good class, but they are nowhere near as powerful as an intelligently played wizard.
One spell = you being boned.
Mordenkainen's Magic Disjunction. Your +11 Will save will get you rocked. You have to make a save for each item you have, each save failed means one item lost.
18 base Int
+4 for levels
+6 for headband
= 28.....+9 modifier
10 + 9 lvl + 9 int = 28
28-11 = 17
Each time you roll less than 17, you just lost an item. 85% chance to lose each piece of gear. Once you lose your Helm of mind blank or your boots of flight, he can tear your a** a new one. Never mess with an angry wizard who is willing to break your gear to kill you.
Also, be scared of a druid who will use shapechange and will go into grapples with you. Your feats geared towards the spiked chain won't avail you in a grapple, and you cannot hope to compete against the size and strength modifiers which a druid can put to use against you. I hate to tell you this, but the higher level a fighter gets, the more he needs strong spellcaster support. A high level fighter will never beat a high level prepared spell caster unless that caster does something remarkably stupid or the fighter catches him sleeping.
On a nicer note, I'm with you on the "invincible druid" thing. Druids are a good class, but they are nowhere near as powerful as an intelligently played wizard.
Sigh.
MDJ bones everyone, because you have to make a will save for every single magic item, and even the best will save is going to miss some. And when does the mage get this 'I win' thing? Well, at level 17, when the game and character is almost done with his career. Unless, of course, the dex-based Rogue UMD's a scroll of it and uses it on the mage first. Funny how gold makes up for class abilities, like casting of broken spells.
However, MDJ is also fairly short range...which means if he's casting it at you, he's in charge range, 'port range, and/or you can just take a Readied action to move OUT OF THE AOE...and it goes off and hits nothing.
In which case everything comes down to who wins initiative, which means your non-argument has been addressed multiple times.
A high level fighter can very, very easily beat a high level caster if he's smart. The casters are not the only ones with brains, so its not all up to the casters. An uber charger can kill him with his first attack. Lockdown can trap him in an AMF. AN archer can poke him full of holes at 1000'.
It's not all up to the caster.
But this is not a duel, this is a Fighter build as a member of a party. If you want to fight a duel, go to another thread.
===Aelryinth
Precise Swing: This feat from the Eberron books eliminates miss chances from all cover except total cover. It's a General feat, however, but does a good job insuring that nothing but an absolute turtle interferes with your AoO swings.
Does precise swing allow for AoOs on opponents with cover? My reading of the feat indicates that you would get to ignore the cover bonuses when you swing, but the feat does nothing to prevent the fact that you can't make an AoO in the first place when the opponent has cover.
Does precise swing allow for AoOs on opponents with cover? My reading of the feat indicates that you would get to ignore the cover bonuses when you swing, but the feat does nothing to prevent the fact that you can't make an AoO in the first place when the opponent has cover.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You ignore all effects of cover (but not total cover) when making a melee attack, including a melee attack with a reach weapon.
All effects would include those that would stop you from taking an AoO. It doesn't say ignore AC bonus...it says all effects.
==Aelryinth
Tumble will still let you exit the thicket of blades with 0 aoo's on a roll of 15 or more.
Wall of Force and Prismatic Sphere are still able to be used inside an AMF. Remember those effects are not suppressed and would block the fighter from the caster.
Otherwise this is one VERY awsome build
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You ignore all effects of cover (but not total cover) when making a melee attack, including a melee attack with a reach weapon.
All effects would include those that would stop you from taking an AoO. It doesn't say ignore AC bonus...it says all effects.
==Aelryinth
That is certainly one way of looking at it, but I was focused more on the "when making a melee attack" part. The opportunity to make the attack never arises, because you can't AoO somebody with cover. You're not making a melee attack when you check to see if you can AoO a critter, that part comes after you've confirmed the opportunity.
Great build man. I really like it and it does show what a pure fighter is able to do, but there are a few things.
Tumble will still let you exit the thicket of blades with 0 aoo's on a roll of 15 or more.
Wall of Force and Prismatic Sphere are still able to be used inside an AMF. Remember those effects are not suppressed and would block the fighter from the caster.
Otherwise this is one VERY awsome build
Tumble is normal movement. Thicket triggers on all normal movement. Ergo, Thicket trumps Tumble.
I see you did NOT read the build, and multiple follow-up threads that addressed that very question BEFORE you posted it. It is stated quite emphatically, and gone over multiple times also with regards to things like Spring Attack in later posts. In short, if a mere skill check can trump the stance, the stance is basically worthless. Feats are always more powerful then mere skill checks, ergo, the stance trumps the skill check.
Secondly, you can't cast a wall of force or prismatic wall inside an AMF. As for blocking you from reaching the caster, a wall of ice or iron also blocks you, so this is a non-issue...it means you aren't going to charge the caster, you're going to leave and come back when they aren't around...or, you are going to teleport around the barrier.
Really, if all those things are already up, you're either going to let the party spellcasters remove them, or go away and come back when they are gone and someone has wasted the spell.
I don't want to be harsh, but I addressed this point very specifically in the original build, and having it come up 32 pages later is, well, bizarre.
===Aelryinth
That is certainly one way of looking at it, but I was focused more on the "when making a melee attack" part. The opportunity to make the attack never arises, because you can't AoO somebody with cover. You're not making a melee attack when you check to see if you can AoO a critter, that part comes after you've confirmed the opportunity.
You determine if they have cover when you go to attack them. Since you ignore all but total cover, you can complete your AoO. Otherwise, you want to attack, but the opponent has too much cover. It's the chance to attack that triggers the search for cover. Having cover is irrelevant if you can't attack at all!
===Aelryinth
Tumble is normal movement. Thicket triggers on all normal movement. Ergo, Thicket trumps Tumble.
I see you did NOT read the build, and multiple follow-up threads that addressed that very question BEFORE you posted it. It is stated quite emphatically, and gone over multiple times also with regards to things like Spring Attack in later posts. In short, if a mere skill check can trump the stance, the stance is basically worthless. Feats are always more powerful then mere skill checks, ergo, the stance trumps the skill check.
===Aelryinth
Actually i did read your build. and the 2nd build that was made from it. But you are incorrect in the assumption that tumble would still provoke an AOO. For a dc 15 you may tumble through a space at 1/2 movement provoking NO AOO's while doing so. Thicket of blades allows you to get an AOO from a 5ft step and withdraw moves but says nothing to stop you from using tumble. Your logic of "Feats are always more powerful then mere skill checks, ergo, the stance trumps the skill check" really does not hold much water here as, without rule 0, you can only do what the text says.
Stuff
Dude, two conflicting absolutes makes it a grey area. It's an AYDM thing.
sidenote: kinda odd how nobody criticizes 2.0. It's a shame lockdown gets this much flak (and over stuff already addressed).
Dude, two conflicting absolutes makes it a grey area. It's an AYDM thing.
sidenote: kinda odd how nobody criticizes 2.0. It's a shame lockdown gets this much flak (and over stuff already addressed).
Thicket specifically said all normal movement provokes, and specifically includes the 5' step, which also normally provokes no AoO normally. Tumbling is part of the 'normal movement' subset. Ergo, Tumbling provokes.
And as is stated on the original build, you will need to clarify it with your DM, not present it as an absolute argument as to why the build does not work.
This ground has been covered, Thor. Don't make an argument out of it that was old on the first day of the original build.
===========
2.0 builds off Lockdown, Archer. Why critique your build when if you critique the original, yours is by default included? Heh.
===Aelryinth
2.0 builds off Lockdown, Archer. Why critique your build when if you critique the original, yours is by default included? Heh.
===Aelryinth
I meant criticize, not critique. Critiques are helpful (I got a *lot* of critique on 2.0). Criticism(spelling?) is not and is the majority of what has happened on this thread, but hasn't happened *at all* on 2.0.
It's really a shame.
By the way: Imitation is the sincerist form of flattery.
I have a small question: Is this build severely hampered by lack of reach?
Lack of reach? Spiked chain plus enlarge person threatens from 5' to 20'
Reach is very important to the build, because it is a control build. It's job is to stop as many people as possible from moving, preferrably before they can hit you.
All of the alternate weapon options (spiked chain, glave_ + short haft, glaive+spiked gauntlets) assume a reach weapon as primary. It's very hard to build effectively without the additional reach, it's that important.
I suppose if you were to focus on a very high AC and keeping people next to you, that's an alternate type of build for the class. It still cuts down on the amount of area that you can control, and reach is extremely important for any kind of melee build. I'd hazard that trying to play a Lockdown build without reach would be rather interesting in application.
Possible, but...interesting. Most builds that include Stand Still without a focus on control are just trying to keep people next to them, and amount to uber charger builds...fast kill the boss, and stay close enough to kill the henchies and don't let them run away.
===Aelryinth
Fighter 2/ Ex-Monk 1/ Lion Totem 1/ Fighter +2/ Crusader 2/ Fighter +12
You should have plenty of feats.
Edit: On a side note, I have posted a thread for help/advice in optimizing the fighter variant that deal with other builds than this one. if anyone is willing to help I'd appreciate it and the thread can be found here.
But how would becoming huge (with mountain rage) and gargantuan (potion of enlarge person) affect the build? Could I use a great sword or another weapon without reach since I will be so big?
Mountain rage RAW increases your size to large. If already large by half-minotaur you don't get bigger. You stay large. I'm not even going with mountain rage because both mountain rage and lion totem sacrifice fast movement (seriously, look at the sub level. There's no fast movement). You'd keep the reach of a large creature when large regardless of what size your weapon is. If you reach huge size (actual size, not weapon size), then your reach increases.
There's not a lot of write-ups on the lower fighter levels because his job details tend to be remarkably similar then, and he excels at it: Hit something and kill it. Stand in front of stuff and protect the squishies.
Once you hit 10-12, the squishies start hammering back. Spell selection and power opens up a lot of options. Sure, you can still smack stuff and do damage, but now the wizard can teleport...and so can the monsters. You have to be able to do more then that.
So, you move away from a pure damage causing build (be it by Uber Charger or something else) and move into battlefield control by using Standstill, or in other cases, a trip build.
I use the term MATURE at 16 to denote the fact that Lockdown doesn't need to hit 20 to be fantastically deadly. Once he gets double dmg on all attacks, he owns...and that is at level 16. At 10, once he gets Thicket, he can start locking people down...it's not as effective as it will be at 16, but it can be high enough.
To get around the glaive/spiked gaunt prob, you can use razored, or you can use a longspear instead. One goes slashing route (and allows sundering) the other goes piercing (and allows good charging/ready vs charge).
I'm not commenting on templates because I consider most of them broken and pretty cheesy. They are meant for ways to buff up an enemy, not a PC who can and will abuse them.
As for Powerful Build, I'd think that being naturally Large would kick you up to the next higher category, ditto with Mountain Rage. It's a reasonable extension of the ability...but not RAW, unfortunately.
You can mess around a lot with Lockdown. Even the build I have, the whole weapon spec tree is considered optional, and so is the mage killing stuff. That's 7 whole feats you can choose, or basically ALL your character feats. Lots of ways to individualize stuff. And if you can get your TH and dmg from a template instead of the spec tree, well, that's a good investment.
===Aelryinth
You have him taking Thicket of Blades as his first Crusader stance (at lvl 11, IL = 6)...but your first stance as a martial adept must always be a 1st level stance (see ToB, p. 10, under "stances known"). I believe CustServ ruled this is intentional, not a misprint.
It's not a big deal...you just need to squeeze another level of Crusader in there somewhere. I suggest dropping a Cleric level (since I think you get more bang for the RKV level) and just taking it at lvl 12. You can grab Thicket as your second stance. You still get 9th level spells, though...
Also, you can't take Bloodletting Strike at RKV4...it requires 2 Shadow Hand Mnvrs already known (so far as I can see, you don't have any). How 'bout Elder Mt. Hammer or Law Bearer?
Other than that, looks pretty sweet. I'm already working on an alternate version with a little less casting, little more maneuvers (I love ToB)...maybe Sanctified One from Comp. Champion (maybe not, though...it's not full BAB or full casting...bleh. But I love Armor of Law, and Ruby Spell is pretty nice...).
The quotation marks around puberty and mature weren't for insult but just personal preference. Anyway, pertaining to your specific build, what is it designed to do in levels 5-10? You say uber charger but I don't see much in your build to support that.
That's because I focused on the weapon spec chain instead. As I noted, build flexibility. If you want to go combat brute/shock trooper/leap attack, just take a pencil to the appropriate feats and rub them out. If you are going with a high LA build with uber stats, it makes sense to do that...you don't need the TH/Dmg, you need more flexibility.
Remember, it's a generic build, and has seven feats you can swap to taste. That's a lot of flexibility for build ideals. My build just makes him real good with one weapon and good at shutting down casters as part of the Lock. Yours may make him a mean charger and good at locking foes in place so you can punish them with your big Beat Stick.
It's all in build design.
==+Aelryinth
That's because I focused on the weapon spec chain instead. As I noted, build flexibility. If you want to go combat brute/shock trooper/leap attack, just take a pencil to the appropriate feats and rub them out. If you are going with a high LA build with uber stats, it makes sense to do that...you don't need the TH/Dmg, you need more flexibility.
Remember, it's a generic build, and has seven feats you can swap to taste. That's a lot of flexibility for build ideals. My build just makes him real good with one weapon and good at shutting down casters as part of the Lock. Yours may make him a mean charger and good at locking foes in place so you can punish them with your big Beat Stick.
It's all in build design.
==+Aelryinth
That's the problem. You haven't shown the unenlightened just how you could change it. Something as simple as an sblock with an alternative set of feat for a charger would hold up this point a bit better. You just have a different approach than most people.
That's the problem. You haven't shown the unenlightened just how you could change it. Something as simple as an sblock with an alternative set of feat for a charger would hold up this point a bit better. You just have a different approach than most people.
Well, its the Optimizer boards. If someone here can't cut/paste the generic feats by level, and then pick 7 they don't like for 7 they do, I figure they probably need to go back to the Core Rules and work there.
It's also why I didn't give skill points.
Really, once you start adding in things like templates and stuff, it all gets too crazy, which is why I just post pointers to people's builds. The half-ogre build, for instance, has a strong uber charger basis to it, in addition to the lock, but it does give up several of the core feats to do it. No biggie.
===Aelryinth
Well, its the Optimizer boards. If someone here can't cut/paste the generic feats by level, and then pick 7 they don't like for 7 they do, I figure they probably need to go back to the Core Rules and work there.
It's also why I didn't give skill points.
Really, once you start adding in things like templates and stuff, it all gets too crazy, which is why I just post pointers to people's builds. The half-ogre build, for instance, has a strong uber charger basis to it, in addition to the lock, but it does give up several of the core feats to do it. No biggie.
===Aelryinth
Skill points are unnecessary. Feats on a build that is nothing but feats are kind of hard to come up with for most people.
I've built a character using parts of this build (a character that received some help from other members of this forum). He's a bugbear (sans racial HD and nat. arm.) gestalt ranger/swordsage.
I'm taking ranger to 6 so I get TWF and ITWF for free, then switching it out for two levels of Bloodclaw Master, and then some fighter levels to pick up defensive sweep and thicket of blades as early as possible.
Feats look like this:
Flaw: Willing Deformity
Flaw: Deformity (Tall)
1st: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
6th: Double Hit (DM ok'd this)
9th: Imp Crit (unarmed strike) Something Else for my first fighter level
10th: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)
12th: Robilar's Gambit and Weapon Spec (unarmed strike)
14th: GTWF
15th: Defensive Sweep
So should look like Ranger 6/ Swordsage 15/ Bloodclaw Master 2/ Fighter 6/ Something 1.
Took him from 2nd to 4th level and he's pretty good so far. I can't wait for 10th level though.
Basically I'm going for killing things rather than making them stand still, although I could work it in, and Double Hit would even do what Overpowering Attack does. I might take Stand Still anyway, just to screw with the DM.
The other factors in my build are aimed at not letting spellcasters get away, triggering more AoO's to stop such silly nonsense from happening.
What works for you is part of your campaign. Good luck!
==+Aelryinth
What about doing the lock build for a monk instead a fighter?
Lockdown 2.0 dips rogue. Emphasis on dip. Monks blow at combat.
I was thinking monk with a reach weapon or something... But if you are saying their BAB is too weak and HP suck, then that is another story.
I do not understand you... Please elaborate.
I was thinking monk with a reach weapon or something... But if you are saying their BAB is too weak and HP suck, then that is another story.
In my sig.
Monk BAB makes a Lockdown build hard to do. Basically, anything the Monk does is going to be colored by the fact that he's going to miss a lot. Can his damage be good? With the right stuff/feats, it can be exceptional, especially if you can somehow invoke size Cheese to up UA damage.
But with weaponry? unless you are using a lot of spells somehow to up your damage, a monk build is simply not going to work as well as a fighting build. You aren't going to hit as often, you aren't going to hit as hard, you probably can't avoid blows as well, and you can't take as many hits that do get thru.
Monks can be very, very effective in damage with the right builds. But a lot of that is very circumstantial. Some of the psychic warrior/monk combos can get just sick in damage.
But for a Lockdown build? They rely far too much on uber buffage, and Lockdown tries to have minimal buffage (one Enlarge spell, coming up!).
I like the rule that Paizo put out, actually. Buffs lasting more then 1 rd/level are limited to THREE total, on a person. If you want to accept more then that, you have to give up one of your prior buffs. Cuts down on buff abuse.
===Aelryinth
2) That and readied actions, yes.
I am playing the only fighter. I am however taking some rogue levels and other classes so I can have other utility but I have NEVER played Epic so I am unsure if I am making a big mistake. How does epic feats work and should I stay focused on fighter levels. How would you build a fighter type so I can beat the rest of the group at the end game. We will most likely fight each other since we are playing an evil campaign. The DM is also not allowin the the Tome of Battle or Magic books, FYI. I need help. We are starting at 20th. So far, I know what I am playing. He got a free lvl adj to spend on race, so I took half-ogre. He also gave me able learner so I could take on more of the rogue responsibilities but that made me take ghost face killer levels. I'm at a loss. Maybe I should e-mail you my character...
1) Hit things REALLY HARD. Play an ubercharger. Historically DMs tend to ban/nerf melee that works without magic (ie ToB) and your DM has already done some. I suggest this if you talk it over with the DM so he doesn't reflex banhammer.
2) Gish. Get at least 8th level spells at 20. DMs tend to not reflex banhammer casters, so I would do this.
Is there anyway to keep up with the spellcasters WITHOUT taking ANY spellcaster levels.
No, unfortunately, no.
You confused me again. relex banhammer? gish? As in the race? I have a character concept in mind following the lock build idea but need helop with epic feats or which ones to take... Is there anyway to keep up with the spellcasters WITHOUT taking ANY spellcaster levels.
Reflex banhammer = No you can't do this, without really looking at something.
Gish means a fighter/caster. Duskblade and psychic warrior are gishes.
If you can start at Epic, Epic Fighters can rock. It's going to be hard to start at low levels and make it to Epic Fighter levels so you get tons of Epic Bonus feats...
Epic spellcasting is as broke as the DM wants to make/allow it. Spellcasting means having to pick spells unless you are going with the later classes...and picking spells out every day gives you versatility, but it's also a chore. With a Fighter, you select your gear, select your feats, and you are done and ready to go.
Not sure on what to tell you. Spellcasters do what they do. You own in melee combat and control your opponents movements. You have your role, they have theirs. Being just another spellcaster is boring. Owning while they agonize over spell selection has a sweet smell all its own.
==Aelryinth
2) Epic feats for noncasters blow chunks.
3) Fighter follows the y= 1/X progression.
4) The DM has preemptively banned ToB, which kills all melee lockdowns at this level.
5) Gishes get WAY higher melee #s at this level than fighters
That said everything else archerpwr said is spot on. Despite the misinformation that aelryinth continues to put out about the fighter, they will not catch up to primary casters in any capacity that isn't a contrived circumstance.
I'd go into the many fallacies of aelryinth's position, but really it's not worth the time anymore. I can sum it up like this: Either for years no one has had the keen insight and intellect into the fighter class that aelryinth has.... or everyone else has been right and casters are crazy good and the fighter is not.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Duskblades are gishes, just not terribly powerful ones.
Duskblades are much closer to barbarians than wizards. LOTs of sweet spot offense, but 0 defense. Gishes are a totally different fish (WAY more book keeping). JaronK made an excellent post about it somewhere.
Duskblades are much closer to barbarians than wizards. LOTs of sweet spot offense, but 0 defense. Gishes are a totally different fish (WAY more book keeping). JaronK made an excellent post about it somewhere.
A gish is a fighter spellcaster. It's a gish class. It's a very restricted gish class, but it's a gish nonetheless. Trying to describe it as something other then a warrior spellcaster is not going to fly.
I'm not saying you can't build better gishes with tons of PrCing. But one of the thing done with later classes is a great deal of attention is paid to spell selection. It's the arguments about unlimited spell selection that destroy the Core 4 spellcaster classes. LAter classes have very tight spell lists with limited ability to add to them, and it controls the class very, very well.
Duskblades are focused gishes, that's all, and right about where they should be in terms of power.
Btw, if you want a good multe-use Fighter Lockdown build, go to the starting page and look up the Ogrelock build. Dungeon Crasher, Lockdown and some ubercharging all together. Throw in a Large Greatbow and he's a styling archer, too.
===Aelryinth
A gish is a fighter spellcaster. It's a gish class. It's a very restricted gish class, but it's a gish nonetheless. Trying to describe it as something other then a warrior spellcaster is not going to fly.
Fighter/caster is just how we explain gishes to people we think are stupid. One word describes gishes: BUFFS. Now look at the duskblade spell list and get back to me.
Seriously, do you even read CO? Gish is a slang term most prominently used here. WE define "gish"
The historical basis of Gish comes from githzerai/githyanki F/MU's of level 4/4. Someone migrated it here to describe fighter/wizards.
Now, the most effective gishes use buffs. I won't dispute that. That it no way obviates the fact that the Duskblade is very obviously a fighter/spellcaster, whose arsenal of cast spells focuses more on ray and touch spells then buff spells.
Gish does not mandate buff spells. Gish mandates spellcasting. Optimizing mandates buffing. There IS a difference. Nowhere in the definition of Gish that I have ever seen is BAB16+/CL 17+ Buffcaster part of it....it's spells, not buffs, that define the role. No true Gish build ever has to center around buffs...that's just silly.
Duskblades have full BAB and eventual caster levels of 20. The spell list may not be uber, but it's still a spell list. They qualify as gishes better then Psychic Warriors do.
===Aelryinth
It's you that are limiiting the definition of Gish, not me.
The historical basis of Gish comes from githzerai/githyanki F/MU's of level 4/4. Someone migrated it here to describe fighter/wizards.
The history of a word does not determine its current meaning. The current usage determines the current meaning. When you post on this board you use its jargon. In this case that jargon is gish. There is a reason people call duskblades "gishes" and wizard/fighters Gishes.
Archr, come on, get a life!
A gish is a gish. You want to subdivide, fine and dandy, but it's still a gish.==Aelryinth
And this is the CO Board, not the word history board
So you're trying to be lofty because of a capital G and claiming that's a serious error in 'board jargon'?
Archr, come on, get a life!
==Aelryinth
Now, if you were to ask a Stat prof to define "p" would you expect the same answer as asking a migrant uneducated day laborer? Jargon, man.
Just because the people you talk to think you are stupid does not mean duskblades are Gishes in CO.
It seems really strange to defend aerlyth, but I must agree with him here. The term gish to me refers to a caster/warrior. If it has poor casting, it make for a weak gish, but I agree that the term is broader than your suggesting here.
I haven't looked through the ENTIRE character, as that would take a week, the first post is a mouthful, but it looks really good.
Couple things I would point out though is, your Grapple modifiers are good. Don't know of much better, might find some if I looked specifically for it, but probably wouldn't happen too much. You Trip modifier is ok. A dedicated tripper build would definitiely have a better one. I had a Trip based Duskblade that used the spiked chain and his trip mod was around 50 and he was only 18th level at the time. Now you cover that though because this isn't a dedicated tripper build as you say, "trips just happen" The big problem I see with this is if you do decide to use the trip when it "just happens" if you don't trip them, then they can trip you... ou can stop that by dropping your weapon, but then you've dropped your weapon. Also, if you had Improved Trip you'd also get an AOO after you tripped them. So if youhad a trip "just happen" and you tripped them, then you could take an AOO on them then and there. Then when they went to get up, you'd get another.
My tripper was big, and had a bigger reach. If anyone moved he'd get an AOO, that would be a Knock Down attack, when he knocked them down he'd get a second attack on them, when they tried to get up he'd get another AOO, which could again, knock them down. He threatened a HUGE area, and in his threatened area, the DM couldn't get anything to be effective AT ALL Pluss when he did his full attack, he he'd channel things like Empowered Vampiric Touch and get huge HP boosts against everything in a huge area, as he'd Whirlwind Attack whenever there was more than a few people in his area.
My biggest complaint would have to be though, how you presented this build. You presented it with caveats up the arse, so that if anyone criticized it you could always point out, "Well, see I didn't even use my regular feats for anything effective on purpose just so if a weakness was pointed out, I would have an excuse to why it had the weakness.
Though the build looks solid except for said wasted feats. Good Job.
I also don't happen to agree with the general consensus that Duskblades aren't optimized because of their lower level spells either. Maybe most aren't, but if built correctly they can be. The Duskblade tripper I made was so effective that the DM wouldn't let me play him anymore. No bad guy could do anything around my characters, and I was able to whirlwind attack for a good amount of damage, when combining it with my channeled spells, which BUFFED my HPs. (IE hitting 20 creatures for 50 points of vampiric damage each, plus attack damage, which was huge on its own. Thats a lot of HPs, though some DMs may say you can only get the HPs from the highest attack, there is nothing in the rules that says you can't, and since this is CO boards, and plenty of DMs would just rule out a lot of things done here, like the infinite loops some people use, then it counts) Hell he was even more effective than our full caster/Incantatrix, who would do Twinned Maximized, Energy Admixtured Firebrands to get several hundred points of damage to everything on the board. Didn't do quite as much damage, but kept everyone on their buts, and swatted 'em back down whenever they got back up. Plus I could keep up my control and Whirlwind Vampiric Strikes for a lot longer than the caster could do his load of damage.
In any case, as far as the Gish/gish argument goes can we put our private parts back in our pants and let the thread continue.
actually, I don't really care -- I just wanted an excuse to have the 1000th reply.
sure, willpower had the 1000th post, but pathetically cool nontheless (I really gotta get a life
)Archr frequently doesn't have a leg to stand on except his own arrogance. Defining terms means you don't have an argument, so you nitpick. Arguing slang semantics is a loser's argument. If I use the word that way, it's as valid as anyone else doing it.
Trip builds work out nicely if you can get the modifiers...that takes substantial investment in weapons and feats. I've got the spare feats in the build if you don't want to take the spec tree. Since the build is based on Stand Still, which works off damage, I took the spec tree to make the Stand Still a Lock.
There's considerable bias against Fighter feats being even as strong as manuvers, which is really, really sad. In addition to the built-in bias against core class functions and niche filling, this is just one more strike upside the head for the fighter.
A Trip machine can work, but there will be foes you are simply unable to Trip. There are no foes you cannot Stand Still.
======
It's a long post on a fighter build because it's meant to be comprehensive. Too many people post builds that are just collections of levels and feats, and don't go through the massive process of how to actually use the builds, tactics, gear to have and get, and so forth. I did it all.
And it made it into the Lexicon of core Fighter builds!
Me happy.If you want more discourse on problems between Fighters and Warblades, the Regdar post in my sig explains a bit more diligently the 3.5 problems and bias against Melees in general.
==Aelryinth
==Aelryinth
Basically, it's a silly Fighter option that either should have been inserted at an odd level, OR been a Fighter feat in the spec tree.
Of the Attack line, it's the only one that's worth a damn, and THAT only if you get extra attacks off of AoO to leverage the double dmg.
===Aelryinth
Where is Overwhelming Attack?
UA, p.52
Where is Overwhelming Attack?
UA, p.52
I think he meant overpowering attack, found on page 45 of the PHBII
Specifically says this:
If you are in the thicket of blades stance and an
opponent tumbles past you, do you get an attack of
opportunity?
Yes, you can make an attack of opportunity even if an
opponent uses Tumble or other types of movement that would
normally not allow you to make them, such as the Spring
Attack feat.
Showing that both tumble AND SPRING ATTACK could cause an AoO with the stance up. The next debate would be about the "other types of movement that would normally not allow you to make them" such as the specific charge maneuvers from ToB. According to this wording, those too would provoke AoOs, but I suppose that can be left to the DM.
==Aelryinth
Yes, they would also provoke AoO's. They don't under 'normal' rules, but Thicket of Blades neutralizes that advantage and 'resets' stuff back to where it should be. It's why it's such a great stance, and nobody knows why it's in Crusader and not Iron Heart.
==Aelryinth
I can kind of see the point with the Crusader being a sort of a defensive melee character with all the healing abilities and whatnot.
==Aelryinth
Not too long ago I finished participating in a two-year long campaign that went from 1 to 19 playing an orc lockdown fighter with an awl-pike in a party of me, a charger paladin using onewinged4ngel's rebalanced paladin and a blaster sorcerer with my IC optimized bard cohort and the paladin's semi-optimized wizard cohort. I had a few more feats thanks to the moderate fighter homebrew fix I was using but the fundamentals were all there except that I could crack-out my will save and was able to take my last levels in Warblade.
The general consensus at the table was that in combat I was a little more than ahead of everyone else and that I generally made the paladin useless unless he got his charge off and 1-shot the target. I distinctly remember almost single-handedly defeating a T-rex with a longspear and an enlarge person spell at level 4. I still receive flack in my group about Sir Azhgump's (my Orc) supposed brokeness, and often the exclamation "standstill!" is used as the punch-line of jokes about the capabilities of monsters I intend to foil.
If properly optimized, I see this kind of character as potentially pushing tier 3. What's everyone else's experience?
A tier 3 character is versatile and capable of contributing meaningfully to a wide variety of situations. It has a role that it does well, and several others it can fulfil passably well.
At some point though doesn't a tier 4, one-trick pony though it may be, begin to outshine a tier 3? Take a charger capable of a many thousand-damage pounce for instance or a lockdown character that can reliably force reflex DCs in the 80s or higher with an Attack bonus in the 50s. Is it fair to say that character is worth less because of the lack of versatility despite the immense competency in their narrow role?
Thicket of Blades is a quintessential attack stance...it generates attacks. If the stance generated AC bonuses, I could see it being in Crusader. It lets you cut down things around you faster. Should be Iron HEart, and Crusader should get the DR stance.
I shouldn't have to say that given the thread we're in (and the person I'm responding to), but Thicket of Blades only threatens to generate attacks, i.e. the opponent has complete control over whether the attacks are generated. So the stance creates an incentive not to move in the Crusader's threatened zone: it's about control.
The only downside is that it requires Combat Reflexes and some Dexterity (hence increased MAD since the Crusader doesn't need it otherwise) to function properly.
I shouldn't have referred to tier, it's more of a matter of overall power level, which the Tier System clearly doesn't exactly represent given the strict definitions of what a particular tier means.
At some point though doesn't a tier 4, one-trick pony though it may be, begin to outshine a tier 3? Take a charger capable of a many thousand-damage pounce for instance or a lockdown character that can reliably force reflex DCs in the 80s or higher with an Attack bonus in the 50s. Is it fair to say that character is worth less because of the lack of versatility despite the immense competency in their narrow role?
An optimized character build based on a tier N class can certainly often outshine a plain character from a tier N-1 class.
Nobody said anything about "worth".
Of course I know what you are trying to say and I would say that this build pushes the fighter to be in a very effective niche.
I don't know if this was brought up in the extreme number of posts over the course of a year, however, on the first page someone mentioned celerity = auto first. Just wanted to let you know, if you hadn't already found this out, you can't use immidiate actions without the initiative. So that means only nerveskitter can get in your way.
Yeah, Celerity for Auto Win has its shortcomings, the rest being if it's auto win, everyone has it. Nerveskitter, same thing. And it's kooky spellcaster defensiveness on display, not something you're going to see in a real game.
==Aelryinth
Defensive Sweep is subpar. You can't get it before level 15, and it only works on adjacent enemies. Which means 1) they can full-attack you (so why not get Robilar's Gambit instead to match them blow for blow? That's what a Warblade does!!), 2) you're not getting all the use you can from your reach weapon.
Books and boosters... I think you're talking about levels 15-20 while I'm more focused on levels 5-16... the ones people actually play at.
With Dex 13 you get no benefit from Combat Reflexes... Dex 14 is 4 points of point buy you could have invested elsewhere (Str, Con, ...). It is quite a bit. And a +2 Dex item should be very low on your priority list.
Defensive Sweep is subpar. You can't get it before level 15, and it only works on adjacent enemies. Which means 1) they can full-attack you (so why not get Robilar's Gambit instead to match them blow for blow? That's what a Warblade does!!), 2) you're not getting all the use you can from your reach weapon.
Books and boosters... I think you're talking about levels 15-20 while I'm more focused on levels 5-16... the ones people actually play at.
Combat Reflexes gives you a minimum of +1 AoO's. i.e. 1+Dex. Read it. 13 Dex is core Elite Array (15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex). You will increase it via enhancements and inherents to a maximum of 24. But seriously, if you get it to 20, 6 AoO's/rd is enough to deal with just about ANYTHING.
The whole point of a Lock build is to generate AoO's for you, with Overwhelming Attack at later levels basically tripling your dmg output.
OF COURSE you want Robilar's. ON TOP OF IT, you want Defensive Sweep. They move, AoO from Thicket/Reach. They don't move because they are locked? AoO. They swing at you? AoO. In short, once you get Defensive Sweep and lock someone, you are GUARANTEED an AoO on them, in addition to your single big attack. Thus, you guarantee yourself doing more dmg then a full attack action. IF they attack you, you just kill them faster.
That's why the Build works. It also keeps something big and dangerous away from the rest of the party.
==Aelryinth
We are going away from the original point I was objecting to, which is that Thicket of Blades is meant to generate attacks. It's not ; it's meant to lock people down.
To be clear, I was discussing neither your specific build, nor its (very nice) level 15+ perks.
That's a very bad place for him to be, usually.
==Aelryinth
1) Dragon mag source not allowed, so no AoOs to stop quickened spells. Can ready for them of course, but then you don't get your double damage attack, and may not do enough damage to stop a concentration. Plus, they could just be using an item to teleport away as swift (anklets of translocation or something)
2) Creatures larger than you can easily get that may also have reach. Even with potions of enlarge person or similar, I'm not getting above large size (easily). Someone who outreaches me will always be able to get a full attack and even be out of range for me to AoO them back. Can you use evasive reflexes on the robilar's AoO to move out, even if you couldn't normally hit them? Concern is of course we don't want to take a full attack from a creature this size, our AC isn't wonderful... but running away and hiding isn't a great option either ;)
Your second concern can be adressed with aberant blood and inhuman reach (lords of madness p178 and 180) and/or a giant size (complete mage p109-110). Giant size is a 7th lvl wu jen spell so it might be hard to get scrolls of it and be able to use them. A large character with inhuman reach and a reach weapon will have a 30ft reach though, which is usually sufficient.
If you ready for a quickened spell you could avoid it, like you said. Getting enough damage could be done with power attack which works fairly well. You could also screw up a spellcasters plans by placing the dispelling enhancement (magic item compendium p33) on your weapon. If you take the inhuman reach feat, you dont need to be enlarged all the time so an antimagic torc (underdark p73)could be useful.
Plus I don't have enough feats for it unless I give up things I'd rather not
Antimagic torc or powder may come in later, sure, but seems a very expensive option at any level other than 20th, which we'll likely never be in the campaign.
The giant size spell being self only probably precludes me from ever casting it, although I suppose you could have a custom 1/day version made and reasonably affordable at higher levels. (7*13*1800/5 as I recall for 32760 1/day item) (assuming wu-jen can cast lvl 7 spells at 13th, I didn't check)
Seems that the build will just have to have a weakness of things much larger than me, and quickened spells. Most quickened spells are either very expensive for the caster to do, or won't suck too horribly. Dispelling (and greater dispelling) are decent options but a pure caster is going to be able to beat the CL check (as generally the enemy would be higher CL than me, plus possibly have CL boosting things).
Would be nice if I could work in occult slayer to get double damage on a readied action to disrupt....
Dust of Dispelling costs a pittance for what it does. Slap it on a spellcaster and you've just spent 1000GP to auto-kill a bad guy. His gear will pay for it. Don't sweat the cost.
Dispelling, the +5 version, generates a dispel at YOUR level every time you hit something. Multiple dispels a round will be nasty for any caster.
There's also the Mage Slayer chain of feats...no Casting on defensive, no Magical Concealment, and dispel magical spells that provide AC. Between the three, mages become incredibly vulnerable.
==Aelryinth
It's in this thread here. Maybe the lock-down specific analysis should go in this thread?
If you want to post a build from level 1 that abides by rules that are applicable to ALL campaigns, go right ahead. But a gestalt build is highly specialized and largely useless for a lot of people. The main reason this build sticks around is that it is very straight, very simple, and still leaves room for flexibility.
And that's using one class, and an underpowered one, at that. Variant builds are sprinkled through the thread, using other races, classes, and generally do the same thing very well.
But, gestalt? Not a prime thing on the CharOps board.
==Aelryinth
We are playing with a flaw (only one), but without it you can get rid of something without screaming too much about the build being broken... maybe move things around and lose Extra Granted Maneuver since most of the time you will be using decisive strike. Plus we have an extra feat in there at 9th level anyway right now...
Human
16 Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Con
(Add Strength with levels)
Using combat rogue variant (bonus feats instead of sneak attack)
1. Crusader 1: Improved Init (Race), Stand Still (1), Deft Opportunist (Flaw)
2. Combat Rogue 1: Weapon Focus(Longspear), [Trapfinding]
3. Monk 1: [Decisive Strike], Improved Grapple (Monk), Serpent Strike (3)
4. Monk 2: Combat Reflexes (Monk), [Evasion]
5. Combat Rogue 2: [Spell Reflection], Mage Slayer
6. Warblade 1: Extra Granted Maneuver (6)
-currently here-
7. Fighter 1: Close Quarters Fighting (Fighter)
8. Crusader 2: [Thicket of Blades]
9. Crusader 3: [Open Feat?]
10. Warblade 2: [Uncanny Dodge]
11. Crusader 4: [Steely Resolve 10]
12. Crusader 5: Ironheart
13. Crusader 6
14. Fighter 2: Robilar's Gambit
15. Crusader 7: Stormguard Warrior
Crusader the rest of the way
Defensive Sweep at 18.
We originally planned the campaign to go to level 22-24. No feat picked for level 21 yet, but it would be crusader level 13 for mettle.
This does have an open feat in it at 9th (PMP maybe? Not too thrilled about it in general though)
Also what I love about it, with the warblade levels, I can change weapon focus and serpent strike to any weapon and have it still work with the warblade class feature that lets you change feats specific to one weapon to another weapon: Weapon Aptitude. So with the minimal daily preperation needed for weapon aptitude, I can decisive strike with any weapon (any reach weapon for my purposes)
The build does suffer from a low-ish BAB due to the monk and rogue levels (so 2 behind, unfortunately we're not using partial BAB either). So then of course taking another -2 to hit for decisive strike means.... you're not always hitting, at least until you get better gear. Fortunately our group has an optimized bard that's giving us +7 to hit right now
And as stated waaaay earlier in the thread, it is a little bit subject to DM approval on the "OK" for the decisive strike + serpent strike feat combo.
Also, it sure would be nice to get rogue at level 1 for the bonus skill points, but with so many feats requiring BAB I just couldn't get it worked out. Perhaps if you're starting past level 9 you could work it out with the extra feat slot there and take a feat you can take with 0BAB...
Also note that you could instead take Warblade up in levels instead of Crusader. For mostly flavor purposes and because I wanted to try out more crusader things I chose that way, but you'd get yet another bonus feat at Warblade 5 if you went that way.... only the 2 levels of crusader are really needed. You could even pick yet another class, or a PrC, or whatever... The start is pretty set due to trying to get all those feats as quickly as possible, but the ending is flexible.
If it works, go for it. I don't remember if Serpent Strike is longspear, but I know Lockdown really needs a reach weapon to survive, and the higher his base dmg the better (which is why you usually need to take the spec tree).
==Aelryinth
===Aelryinth
Many DM's take a strict reading that only if the feat forces you to name a weapon (like weapon focus/spec do) does Weapon Apt trigger. In short, a feat that could be ANY weapon, can be directed to a different weapon.
A feat that names a specific weapon, many will rule is unaffected by the feat. Like I noted above, weapon aptitude can be interpreted to allow dual wielding two heavy crossbows that can be loaded and cocked as a free action, by redirecting the hand crossbow feats with Weapon Apt. The trick you are pulling is very similar.
It's all in how you rule. I believe most people follow the spirit of the rule, which was to allow the weapon spec chain to apply to the weapon of the day. Abusing the letter is possible, but frowned on as something to rely on.
Whatever you rule, go with it.
===Aelryinth
===Aelryinth
Damage of a weapon becomes less and less important as you level, and other effects become more important. Reach is the most powerful of these. A 15' reach 1-4 dmg weapon ROCKS at level 20 when you're doing +30 fixed dmg...who cares if it averages 2 hp less then a longsword? Many DM's are going to have problems justifying use of these weapons...rope darts are almost always used with substantial room and space to swing them around with, and meteor hammers are basically overlong flails that take up tremendous amounts of room to wield.
So, neither are used in examples routinely. There's a build on here that is based completely around the 20' reach of a Thunderlance in the hands of a Dragon Disciple Sorceror. Try THAT on for reach abuse.
==Aelryinth
==Aelryinth
Big reach weapons required lots of room to work historically. It's just how they were.
==Aelryinth
Besides, if you're trying to be realistic here, one of the bogus whip-like weapons, including the spiked chain, should only be considered to threaten reach squares if you're actively whipping the weapon around like a maniac. The skill necessary to perform such a feat in close quarters (to say nothing of not hitting your allies) would seem far beyond the scope of a single feat for exotic weapon proficiency if such a feat cannot also enable the use of a simple pike.
==Aelryinth
==Aelryinth
Plus often it's not obvious by appearance which NPCs are even casters. But you can always get huge reach and ready to interrupt the first casting I suppose... but when you think you don't need to ready (and its often not great to, as you change your initiative to later...) and then they get a spell off...
Well, the AMF trick sure still works as it would disable the item... but the elusive armband is going to be in the game a long long time before any AMFs are.
And remember NPC's dont have a lot of money to throw around. Combat casting and casting defensively works for 90% of casters or more...the rest can get by on Tumble actions to get out of reach, or just 5' steps.
==Aelryinth
And have you tried a build that uses Double Hit and 2 weapons or is that not as desirable as the 2hw reach? What about using, say, a light mace in your OH and a Chain from oriental adventures in your main hand? (the 1d6 blunt reach weapon that's 1hed)
Edit: nm, I found it, its a class feature replacement of the 16th level feat, and damn is that cool. Would that double the damage of both weapon attacks when using Double Hit feat?
I'd probably rule out multiple AoO's per opp the same way the ability rules out multiple attacks on attack actions. You get one swing at double dmg. If you want to add in the Double Hit, do so, but it'd just be a normal attack, not doubled.
You could double the damage, and that will likely freak out your DM. Ask him how he'd rule. I tend to err on the side of "this is already pretty awesome, do I want to break my DM?" and "If this were used against me, how long would I live?"
As for generating mass attacks with Two Weapons: that's the Jack B Quick build, which relies on Robilars and Double Hit to do 2:1 attacks. It's got the same problem as most TWF builds: High Dex reqs, the cost of having two premier weapons, the -2 to hit, the AC sacrifice. JBQ also tried to use the KS+RG gambit, until it was ruled it didn't work. It generated a blizzard of AoO's, tho, and it's a strong, classic TWF build.
It's also noticeable that if you put Lockdown vs Jack B Quick, Lockdown reams him a new one, because he gets his double-dmg 2HW AoO's off faster, and does a lot more dmg per attack. In short, against another AoO build, Jack didn't do so hot.
Sure got to roll a lot of dice, however!
==Aelryinth
You could double the damage, and that will likely freak out your DM. Ask him how he'd rule. I tend to err on the side of "this is already pretty awesome, do I want to break my DM?" and "If this were used against me, how long would I live?
Quickened Cloudkill, Forcecage.... come on, seriously with that kind of power going around fighters deserve to be powerful too :P
after reading double hit, and overpowering attack, I'd say that it doubles both hits because they both swing off of one attack of opportunity, and overpowering attack does say it also doubles all damage dealt by later attacks including attacks of opportunity.
But the problem would be rebuilding it to be viable as a TWF'er... hmm
The TWF AoO counterattack build is Jack B Quick. I mention it just above.
A small problem with Overpowering Attack on a TWF build is that the full attack is going to be on a smaller weapon, and not do much dmg. But if you're attacked, it works the same way.
==Aelryinth
Reach is attack and not get attacked back. Reach is not having to move through a threatened area to hit something. Reach is threaten a massive area if something tries to move past you. Reach is an AoO generating machine. Reach lets you hit stuff that is trying to stand off from you.
The biggest power of Enlarge Person, level 1 spell, is that it grants Reach. Monsters with Reach are everywhere at higher level...unless you have it, you're going to be eating AoO's. The more broken melee builds love going with Firbolgs and War Trolls for the great Str/Con buffs...and Reach.
Gonna be really hard to sub for the proactive ability of Reach to generate AoO's for a build.
==Aelryinth
1/day items are custom houserule items though, so those must be allowed by a DM.
There is a mind blank item already in the game, but it is very pricey, its from Magic of Faerun- Cowl of Warding (200,800gp) It gives you Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, and 6 levels of spell turning/day (always on), a black silk hood (head slot). 1/day custom items, like a 1/day mind blank item, should cost a lot for what you get -> an all day immunity to lots of stuff buff. 1/day all day buff is almost as good as an always on permanent buff. So it should cost at least half of an existing always on mind blank item, and the only one I know about I listed above: the cowl of warding, but that has freedom of movement and minor spell turning in it also... so the 1/day mind blank should probably cost around 75,000gp, IMO.
Is the Chain from oriental adventures legal? is it a 1 handed reach weapon or am I reading it wrong?
dunno if this has already been suggested, theres a lot of pages to look through :P
you can teleport out of a forcecage but you can't blink out, says so right in the blink spell itself and in the forcecage spell. IF the shadowjump maneuvers are ethereal travel they also leave you sulking in the forcecage.
1/day items are custom houserule items though, so those must be allowed by a DM.
There is a mind blank item already in the game, but it is very pricey, its from Magic of Faerun- Cowl of Warding (200,800gp) It gives you Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, and 6 levels of spell turning/day (always on), a black silk hood (head slot). 1/day custom items, like a 1/day mind blank item, should cost a lot for what you get -> an all day immunity to lots of stuff buff. 1/day all day buff is almost as good as an always on permanent buff. So it should cost at least half of an existing always on mind blank item, and the only one I know about I listed above: the cowl of warding, but that has freedom of movement and minor spell turning in it also... so the 1/day mind blank should probably cost around 75,000gp, IMO.
Is the Chain from oriental adventures legal? is it a 1 handed reach weapon or am I reading it wrong?
The Shadow Jump manuvers are a teleportation effect. Use Shadow Hand Gloves from To9S. Or a Helm of Teleportation, if you must...Mountebank cape is another alternative.
There's a Mind Blank item in FR , Drow of the underdark. Casts Mind Blank 1/day. I believe it's what is cited at the front, 50k or something. A Greenstone Amulet is another alternative. The cowl is a souped up version. I find it hilarious how stuff that provides mental protection is so incredibly pricey, when so many monsters have it as a default. Was much different in 1E.
There's all sorts of things that are 'legal'. Broken/allowable is something else entirely. I personally wouldn't allow it.
Two feats for reach is a big sacrifice. You'd be better off just buying a Permanent Enlarge, or at higher levels, the psionic skin that gives unlimited Polymorph, and being a Firbolg.
==Aelryinth
There's all sorts of things that are 'legal'. Broken/allowable is something else entirely. I personally wouldn't allow it.
Two feats for reach is a big sacrifice. You'd be better off just buying a Permanent Enlarge, or at higher levels, the psionic skin that gives unlimited Polymorph, and being a Firbolg.
==Aelryinth
You state that a 1handed reach weapon is broken and you wouldn't allow it, but then you go ahead and say that the psy skin that allows infinite metamorphis is completely ok? that item is one of the most broken items i've ever seen printed. I never allow it in any game, and also pretty much beg any DM I play under not to allow it.
On a side note, if your build allowed for 2 flaws at first level, would that be incentive enough to get another 10 feet of reach out of your spiked chain?
Two flaws. I don't play with flaws, so I never work them into builds. Another 10 feet of reach would mean you are size L. Starting half-ogre, or something?
The Skin is like 70k, so It's a high level item. In a game where druids can Bite of the Werebear for +16 str, +8 Con and +2 Dex, and the Fighter is limited to +6, I don't have a problem with morphing into a Firbolg for effectively the same advantages. There is NO WAY a non-Melee should be able to match what a melee does...but in 3.5 they can, handily.
If you mean the flaws buy you two feats, and you really want the reach and don't mind the -1, hey, go for it. You'll see the results rather quickly. Reach is incredibly powerful, especially at low levels. I just find it hard to justify two feats for something you can do with UMD and an Enlarge Person wand, or a custom tool that does the same...but YMMV.
==Aelryinth