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| #1eviltedziesAug 14, 2009 15:11:37 | I have done some extensive reading on the Stormguard Warrior Feat and it's beautifull ability called "Channel the Storm." As I'm sure many of you already know this ability has huge potential for abuse, but for the sake of modification I found I had to come up with some builds for it. Now before I begin, let me educate those who do not know what the "Channel the Storm" ability allows or where its humble origins lie. Stormguard Warrior is a Tactics feat in the Tome of Battle. The feat requires two Iron Heart Manuevers, proficiency in any of the favored Iron Heart Weapons (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, longsword, or two bladed sword), the feat Iron Heart Aura, and a +6 BaB. These requirements are easily met by taking 1 level of Warblade along with any full BaB progression class. Upon attainting the Stormguard Warrior feat we gain access to three tactics. But of importance right now is the "Channel the Storm" tactic. It works as follows....
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| #2eviltedziesAug 14, 2009 15:12:09 | If your looking to make a build using Stormguard Warrior combined with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit then below is the breakdown of the quickest skeleton feat build you'd need. This build assumes NO bonus racials feats, and no flaws. Just straight 1-20 feats gained at normal levels, plus bonus fighter feats. Adding any of the restricted components opens up more potential feat slots. Level 1: Dodge Due to the Fact that both Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit have BaB requirements you may or may not gain them at the listed levels. Taking only full BaB progression classes ensures the quickests entry. By the time you hit level 12 the build matures into its middle stage. There are plenty of additional ways you can enhance the build further. This is easily done through additional feats and classes. * Defensive Sweep (Adds another potential +4 to Hit and Damage simply for your opponent not moving. Combine with Thicket of Blades for Maximum effectiveness. Damned if you do damned if you dont.) * Double Hit (For those dual wielders out there. If you wait one extra round each of your AoOp's get two attacks for the price of 1.) * Mobility followed by Elusive Target (For those pesky power attackers) * Close Quarter Fighting (Just try and grapple me... I dare you.) * Goad (To make sure that ugly ogre knows who to hit.) * Spinning Halberd [Style] (For those halberd wielders who want an extra smack to there BaB) * Backstab (Get two PC's with this same build and ping pong em back and forth between you two. Each round you flanks grants a +4 to Hit and Damage on top of the bonuses for flanking. Combine with Vexing Flanker for more fun.) * Two Weapon Rend (For dual wielders, add more damage into the fray. Combine with double hit for more fun.) * Mage Slayer (Cause Defensive casting is a b**** aint it?) I am sure there are more spells, feats, and manuevers that you could combine with this as well. But for now this short list will suffice as I dare not embark on research that deep. |
| #3eviltedziesAug 14, 2009 15:12:50 | The following are some build I came up with off the top of my head to use in conjunction with the Skeleton build I provided previously. Many of them have great potential as far as damage is concerned, but some also prooved interesting in other ways. Fighter 4/Warblade 16 - Simple Build but allows level 9 manuevers. With full BaB use "Time Stands Still" after storing up enough "reserved AoOp's" and watch your damage skyrocket. Fighter 4/Warblade 6/Crusader 5/Occult Slayer 5 - High Fort and Will Saves, Good Anti-Caster capabilities, Level 6 Warblade/Crusader Manuevers, and the always nice "Thicket of Blades." Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Knight 15 - An essential tank build. Level 5 manuevers. Why wear heavy armor and wield a shield if your "trying" to get hit? Enter the Knight's Shield Ally and Improved Shield Ally. Granted I believe you would have to discuss this one with your DM as by RAW absorbing damage from an attack not directed at you might not activate Karmic Strike or Robilars Gambit. Now if your DM allows the above strategy this next build becomes tempting. Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Crusader5/Knight 10 - An very interesting option. "Thicket of Blades" combined with the Knights already impressive lockdown abilities is scary. Fighter 4/Warblade 1/Duskblade 15 - Full BaB, Good Fort and Will Saves, Level 3 Spells, Level 5 Manuevers, oh and lets not forget the beautiful Arcane Channeling (Full Atack). Vampiric Touch anyone? Fighter 4/Warblade 1/ Monk 15 - Not too shabby Bab, Good Saves down the board, all the monk goodies, a LOT of attacks especially if you go TWF route, and Level 5 Manuevers. |
| #4dr_rocktopusAug 14, 2009 15:21:25 | Stormguard warrior is pretty well known. Someone ran mad-deep numbers on it a while ago. |
| #5eviltedziesAug 14, 2009 15:39:21 | I was fairly certain that people had already done the numbers, but I felt that I wanted to do my own compilation. That once I started typing it I kinda got into a little writing spree. :D |
| #6meatzombieAug 14, 2009 18:02:39 | OMG something from ToB that is potentially abuseable for an insanely strong effect? NO WAY! |
| #7eviltedziesAug 14, 2009 21:27:04 | Hey, I made this because I wanted to and on the off chance someone out there might find my information useful. I knew a lot of people already knew about the potential and yes most of the ToB is cheesy beyond belief. But hey I do what I can. :D |
| #8aethernoxAug 15, 2009 1:20:36 | and yes most of the ToB is cheesy beyond belief. Rawr rawrragh rawr rawgh rawr rawr! Ahem, What the hell. Cheesy and effective are not the same thing. Tome of Battle fixes melee classes. Sure, there are some uses for Fighter 20 and similar builds, but, in general, melee needed the help. Tome of Battle presents three excellent, playable, never-boring classes that just ooze fun. Martial combat being worthwhile is not cheese, ffs. [/oft-repeated-rant] |
| #9dr_rocktopusAug 15, 2009 1:31:55 | ToB Is Lovely. That is my extremely studied opinion on the matter. There's some other great interacton with Stormguard warrior in the form of avalanche of blows. |
| #10aelryinthAug 15, 2009 12:19:08 | There is a major downside to Stormguard Warrior, of course. 1) You're forgoing attacks in one round to get some major attacks in the following round. If you look at the damage you are giving up for the damage you are gaining, you are generally better off just hitting the bastard. You might kill it a round sooner, and the enemy won't be moving away from your killer combo. 2) You're relying on the enemy sitting there and eating your full attack. That's not good. Unless you can make him sit there for your turn, there's plenty of ways for him to get out of your kill zone and render the attacks you gave up moot. 3) You don't get it til 15th level. The Prereq feat is mostly a waste, too. 4) AoO's are limited by Dex, and either you're doing less dmg/attack with Str to boost your Dex, or you're limited to 4 or 5 AoO's given up. Giving up full BAB and dmg AoO's to pull this off is, in my opinion, NUTS. I could see it if, say, you were using expertise and defensive fighting to max out your AC, and then unloading a world of hurt on an enemy...but just for damage? You're better off smacking him back. 5) Karmic Strike and Robilar's have been officially ruled not to stack. Karmic requires too much feat investment, anyways. 6) The perfect counter is one smack from a guy with White Raven techniques, and you lose your abilty to make AoO's. Heh. ==Aelryinth |
| #11eviltedziesAug 15, 2009 12:30:25 | Alright let me clarify my stance on the ToB. I believe it is a very powerful tool for "fighter" type characters. It adds a dimension of abilities and damage potential previously unknown to fighter types. Me calling it cheesy might have been a bit rude, but in my opinion the ToB was nothing short of giving fighter types powers eerily similiar to "spells."Tome of Battle fixes melee classes It did not "fix" anything. It provided a new option's in the form of 3 new core classes and a non-magical fighter version of spells completely unique to the book and its 3 new core classes, along with the prestiege classes, that when "incorperated" into a fighter build gave it a very needed boost in power and utility. Calling it a fix does not change the fact that fighters without ToB are still at a disadvantage against magic users in general. (And for the love of god lets not get into a Fighters are better than Magic users or vice-e-versa argument. Thats not the point here.) But this is neither here nor there. My hopes for this thread were to compile information to help tweak and optimize the Stormguard Warrior feat. I will be adding a list of potential manuevers in the near future that would compliment its abilities very nicely. Thank you Dr_Rocktopus for pointing out the Avalanche of Blows manuever by the way. |
| #12eviltedziesAug 15, 2009 13:42:56 | In response to aelryinth's comments. 1. Alright fair enough. But look at this. Lets say I'm two handing a greatsword with an 18 strength at level 6. I get two attacks at a normal +10/+5 to hit with my damage being 2d6+6 damage per hit. Lets look at the damage potential if I do take my AoOp's against my foe using my strategy. (Assuming Karmic Strike does not stack, we'll just use Karmic Strike for now.) Our opponent makes 2 attacks on us. We take both the AoOp's with our greatsword and hit him for max damage. A whopping max 36 damage. On our turn we then take our attacks and some hit twice again and do another 36 damage. Total we have 72 damage done without using Stormguard Warrior. If we refrain from taking those two AoOp's and wait till our turn we make our two attacks with a +8 to hit and damage for each. We hit with both and come out with a max damage delt of 52 damage. Obviously less than if we had taken our AoOp's. BUT! Heres the key, if we use Storguard Warrior we gain that +8 bonus to HIT as well as Damage. Theres no point to making extra attacks against your foe if you can't even beat his AC. So it comes down to a trade off. Do you sacrifice a more secure chance to actually HIT your opponent for increased damage potential? Or do you want to make sure you actually HIT the foe to deal that wonderful damage of yours. On top of that (Using the previous example.) once your bonuses begins going to 16+ your damage actually nearly equals that of the damage you "could" deal for taking the AoOp's. The main difference is that once you get to +16 you have a MUCH GREATER chance to hit than just taking the AoOp's. If by some chance you manage to get your bonuses up to +20 your damage EXCEEDS that of if you just took the normal AoOp's and has a VERY good chance of hitting. 2. it requires you to somehow be able to hit your target I already addressed this and I am sure there are plenty of ways to hinder there movement or move up to them thanks to ToB alone. But yes it is one of the builds major weaknesses. 3. Please read my section detailing the skeleton build. If I have done something wrong then please point it out so I can fix it instead of just saying I'm wrong. If I have done my reading correctly (Which I know I tend to make many mistakes.) then the earliest you can achieve the build, assuming Karmic and Robliar's do stack, is level 12. If they don't stack then you can achieve it by level 6 easily. 4. First off when you "forgo" an AoOp it does not count as a used AoOp for the turn. Thusly even if I can normally make 4 AoOp's a turn thanks to Combat Reflexes I do not use a single one if I "forgo" them to activate the Channel the Storm ability. Secondly if Robilars and Karmic indeed do not stack then I would very much agree that taking Robilar's Gambit and going full Combat Expertise on your turn would make much more sense. No point in getting beat up if its not worth it. 5. Please provide me a link. I would very much appreciate it. Also, Karmic Strike from the Comp Warrior requires a measly two feats. Both of which can easily be obtained with two levels fighter. If you are using the complete oriental version (the better one) you only spend one feat in order to access Karmic Strike. I hardly consider 2 levels of fighter out of a 20 level build really that build breaking. 6. I agree that would very much hinder this build. But that is why my skeleton build is a FEAT build, NOT a 100% class + feat build. If your pair these feats correctly with certain classes you won't need to use stormguard warrior all the time. Hell, just look at some of my suggested builds. In all honesty I believe every one of them could do just fine without this feat build. So cutting me off from AoOp's for X ammount of turns really won't hinder me as much as you'd expect. I appreciate the criticisms. If Wizards has ruled that neither Karmic Strike nor Robilar's Gambit stack then that simply frees up more feats in my build. By waiting I could just take the more beneficial Robilar's Gambit at level 12. Or I could get the build going right at level 6 with Karmic Strike. The point is that all those two feats not stacking would do is "reduce the power" of the build but "increase the feat flexibility." |
| #13aelryinthAug 15, 2009 16:23:10 | I must be missing something. I thought Stormguard had a level pre-req of 15 to get? Please confirm. At level 15, your dmg with a Greatsword is going to be base 7, +12 if you've a Str of 26, +5 for the sword itself, for a base dmg of 24ish, let's just say 25. That means giving up AoO's. You have to give up 5 AoO's, or 125 points of dmg, at your highest BAB, to power your combo and equal the dmg...and you still only get your normal iteratives. The extra bonus to hit is almost irrelevant...this IS your highest BAB, and you should be hitting at something like 15 BAB, +5 sword, +9 Str, or +29 without Rage or Spec bonuses. Also, you must have AoO's in order to forgo them. Logically, 'no cost AoO's' does not work. It would seem to indicate that you have an unlimited number of AoO's to give up to fuel this feat. That makes absolutely no sense. You can only forgo as many attacks as you have, so you are spending the AoO, you just aren't attacking with them. This feat only works if someone also sends a lot of AoO's your way. If you only get attacked once, it's not worth much...and if you're attacked from multiple sources, the effects get diluted again by multiple targets. In short, this is one of those feats that is dependent upon DM complicity to play, unless you have some sort of lock effect to get them to not move. You have to something to fuel the AoO's; you have to have a target willing to provide that fuel; one stupid enough to stick around and soak the damage; and you likely have to be able to take a crapload of attacks to administer your rebuttal. In my mind, I'd rather unleash the AoO's right back on it, and let someone else in the party finish the thing off, giving me more options. Now, playing wolfpack with this is a great idea...charge in, defensive posture to the nines, get a lot of AoO's you don't take, and then unleash hell if the enemy isn't smart enough to get away. The key here is you are not taking the AOO's because you have a huge penalty to hit...and next round you aren't giving him any chance at all. If he's distracted and doesn't run away, you're golden. If he does, you've just soaked damage for nothing. I'll agree that it makes for a killer combo move....but that's what it is, a combo move. If you do the math, unless you can generate a whole blizzard of attacks that all get the bonus, you're better off with the original AoO's. You also have to set up the combo, and that's as much in the DM's hands as it is in yours. ==Aelryinth |
| #14eviltedziesAug 15, 2009 17:09:18 | I was trying to not involve magic items into the equation because that tend to overcomplicate things further. As for giving up five AoOp's to merely equal to damage look at the two feats I've chosen. Karmic Strike = 1 AoOp every time I am hit in melee. Robilar's Gambit = 1 AoOp every time my opponent "swings" at me. Does not say he has to hit it just says he swings at me. If both do stack then 1 successfull hit on me triggers 2 potential AoOp's. By the time we do hit high levels even most casters have at least 2 attacks a round. Granted range is this builds weakness so lets look at a melee vs melee situation. My Turn 1: So as far as high stats and magic items goes.... unless your strength bonus to damage exceeds 16-20 or your magic item bonuses to hit exceed 16-20 this feat still trumps them in damage and to hit if used correctly. Also, you must have AoO's in order to forgo them. Logically, 'no cost AoO's' does not work. It would seem to indicate that you have an unlimited number of AoO's to give up to fuel this feat. That makes absolutely no sense. You can only forgo as many attacks as you have, so you are spending the AoO, you just aren't attacking with them. "Channel the Storm: To use this option, you must choose to refrain from making one or more availiable attacks of opportunity against a single opponent. On your next turn, you gain a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls for each attack that you refrained from making against the same opponent. You gain this bonus only against an opponent that you refrained from making an attack of opportunity against in the previous round." I'm not a wiz at english grammar or dictionary but by raw this feat states that all I need to do is REFUSE TO USE MY AoOps. Nowhere in the PHB does it mention that NOT using an AoOp counts as a use of an AoOp. If I have a Dex Modifyer of 14 for a +2 bonus. I make 1 AoOp a round , 2 with combat reflexes. If Foe1 runs up to me and enters my threatened square he provokes an AoOp. By the rules I do not have to take that AoOp on him. If I choose not to I still have that AoOp to use at a later time during the turn if my foe does something else that provokes an AoOp. I indirectly this feat does let us get a "infinite" possible number of AoOps because we ARENT using them. Every AoOp we don't take is a "potential" AoOp but it DOES NOT LOWER OUR AoOp's per round unless we actually follow through with the AoOp. Someone already explained about the feats stacking. And you can read here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030506a that you can make multiple AoO against the same person in a round. You can find it under 'Making an Attack of Opportunity'. There is a paragraph entitled 'Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity'. The relevant line is '...but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you -- such as by moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square -- you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).' Now as far as people not sticking around to feel the damage. Congradulations thats one less foe my party has to deal with or I chase you down and continue to assualt you. By yourself, yes this build does have difficulties with keeping someone to hold still long enough to use the combo. But the beauty of the build is YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THE Channel the Storm Ability. If you wan't to take those AoOps then by all means go for it, but this is a very powerful way to take advantage of all those good little AoOp's your getting and potentially turn them into something more. On top of all of this, this build doesn't take into account manuevers, spells, class abilities, ect..... There are plenty of ways to keep someone close to your or to catch up with someone. |
| #15acereraklivesAug 15, 2009 17:36:27 | Aelryinth: the BAB requirement for the feat is +6 BAB. And I also support the interpretation that not taking an AOO doesn't use up an AOO attempt for the round - for example, if I send a summoned monkey running past an ogre and he doesn't choose to hit it, he can still hit me when my little conjurer runs past him). Here's a build that uses Stormguard Warrior as a straight warblade. The flaws aren't necessary to the build, but they would help generate AOO's and whatnot early on. I went for Elusive Target before Robilar's because otherwise I suspect the character probably won't survive levels 12-15 if he runs across a couple of giants or other heavy melee foes :P Human Warblade 20 Level 1: Dodge Level 1: Combat Expertise (Human Bonus) Level 1: Improved Trip (Flaw) Level 1: Power Attack (Flaw) Level 3: Karmic Strike Level 5: Ironheart Aura (Warblade Bonus) Level 6: Stormguard Warrior Level 9: Mobility Level 9: Combat Reflexes (Warblade Bonus) Level 12: Elusive Target Level 13: Improved Initiative Level 15: Robilars Gambit Level 17: Iron Will Level 18: Mage Slayer |
| #16aelryinthAug 16, 2009 11:32:54 | Aelryinth: the BAB requirement for the feat is +6 BAB. Thanks for the clarity on BAB. WHich To9S feat was level 15? COuld have sworn it was an Iron Heart one. Buuut... By your logic, I could have a Dervish spinning around me in their little dance while I have Thicket of Blades up, forgo each AoO as they move out of a square (overrides normal AoO rules), pile up 10 phantom bonuses, and THEN take my 4 AoO's for my 18 Dex IN ADDITION to having 'refrained' from taking 10 other AoO's. Uh-uh. You may forgo your AoO and instead do X. This is per AoO attack given up, not per opportunity ignored. There's a subtle difference. This feat is powered by not taking AoO's when you could, and putting that energy into your attacks. It is NOT powered by having unlimited opportunities and doing nothing. The essence of the feat is simple. Somebody does something that could give you an AoO. You can choose to Attack, or you can forgo that Attack to fuel Stormguard. You're still spending the AoO, because you have to spend the Attack in order to not hit somebody with it. Otherwise, you're just standing there doing nothing, yes? Hope I'm making sense. Otherwise, you're rushing headlong into a really ridiculous situation. Just be glad you can't get unlimited AoO's before Epic levels. ==Aelryinth |
| #17aelryinthAug 16, 2009 12:17:53 | QUOTE=EviltedziesI was trying to not involve magic items into the equation because that tend to overcomplicate things further. As for giving up five AoOp's to merely equal to damage look at the two feats I've chosen. Karmic Strike = 1 AoOp every time I am hit in melee. Robilar's Gambit = 1 AoOp every time my opponent "swings" at me. Does not say he has to hit it just says he swings at me. Problem 1: These feats DO NOT stack. So you get 1 swing per swing of his. This is official errata...the 'swing' is considered one opportunity, just like 'movement out of a square' is considered one opportunity, regardless of the number of squares. The moment when it triggers is irrelevant...you can take it when he hits you, or after he hits you, just like you can take the AoO from the first square he leaves, or the second, or the third...but you only get the one AoO. Until you get Thicket, of course. If both do stack then 1 successfull hit on me triggers 2 potential AoOp's. By the time we do hit high levels even most casters have at least 2 attacks a round. Granted range is this builds weakness so lets look at a melee vs melee situation. Note: Robilar's is a level 12 feat. Karmic Strike also forces you to take dmg to activate it, which is a losing proposition. So as far as high stats and magic items goes.... unless your strength bonus to damage exceeds 16-20 or your magic item bonuses to hit exceed 16-20 this feat still trumps them in damage and to hit if used correctly. Actually, no. An AoO is an attack at your highest base BAB and dmg. Weapon dmg scales by level...you can't ignore magic items because they are part of the dmg curve. Forgoing 1 AoO to boost your attack grants your next attack against the foe +4/+4. But you're probably doing ten to 15 points of dmg with that swing. UNLESS you can make a full attack on them, it's useless...you're better off with the AoO. Forgoing 2 AoO gets you up to +8/+8...but now you've given up 20-30 points of dmg. At lower levels, you've basically now let something live when it should be dead. It will take you 2-3 attacks to equal what you gave up. As you go up in level, your dmg/attack scales right along with you. You can refrain from more AoO's, you can boost your next attacks higher...but you become more and more reliant on gettng multiple attacks to deliver that damage back, because you are giving up massive amounts of damage in return. This isn't a free engine of damage, it has definite limits to it. Thinking you can 'refrain' from using an AoO, and then still have all your AoO's available, is definitely not looking at the feat right (and is not logical, either). It's also amazingly reliant on your foe giving you those AoO's. I agree it has potential, but truly, the only time I can see it actually being useful is if you're using Expertise/defensive Fighting to weather a boatload of attacks, giving up AoO's that would probably miss, and then you can unleash Full Attack Hell on the enemy when your turn comes around. I'm not a wiz at english grammar or dictionary but by raw this feat states that all I need to do is REFUSE TO USE MY AoOps. Nowhere in the PHB does it mention that NOT using an AoOp counts as a use of an AoOp. You're not looking at the feat right. There's ignoring the opportunity, and then refraining from making the attack to do something else. Clearly there's a "Instead of Attacking I'm doing This", and both are working off your AoO's. If I have a Dex Modifyer of 14 for a +2 bonus. I make 1 AoOp a round , 3 with combat reflexes. If Foe1 runs up to me and enters my threatened square he provokes an AoOp. By the rules I do not have to take that AoOp on him. If I choose not to I still have that AoOp to use at a later time during the turn if my foe does something else that provokes an AoOp. I indirectly this feat does let us get a "infinite" possible number of AoOps because we ARENT using them. Every AoOp we don't take is a "potential" AoOp but it DOES NOT LOWER OUR AoOp's per round unless we actually follow through with the AoOp. I disagree. Refraining from using an attack to do something else clearly implies a fueling element. I don't see anything in Channel the Storm to indicate it suddenly grants you the ability to take advantage of unlimited numbers of Opportunities. By this logic, you could forgo 1000 AoO's, and then attack and still get your 3. That makes no sense. here's another way to put it. a 12-headed Hydra attacks you with all heads. You refrain, somehow, from taking NINE AoO's, despite the fact you're only permitted THREE (tell me how you justify NOT taking Nine Attacks, when you're only permitted 3?). THEN, you take your Three AoO's on top of it all (hey, you haven't spent them!). On your full attack action, you're at +36/+36, Power Attack for full, baby, and don't even bother to sever heads, you go right for ripping the main body apart. You didn't take 9 AoO's, You then spent your 3. Congrats. Justify that to your DM, will you? "Yeah, DM, I have 12 AoO's I can take, see? This feat lets me Not Use an infinite number of AoO's." This is also saying that if you have No AoO's left, you can STILL use this feat. Because you're just sitting there doing nothing, 'refraining' from an AoO. i.e. if the number of AoO's you have available is important, it's always important. Someone already explained about the feats stacking. And you can read here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030506a that you can make multiple AoO against the same person in a round. You can find it under 'Making an Attack of Opportunity'. There is a paragraph entitled 'Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity'. I'm not saying you can't make multiple AoO's against a person in a round. I'm saying that the maximum number of AoO's you can refrain from using is the maximum number you are permitted in a round. Any other reading makes no sense. The relevant line is '...but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you -- such as by moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square -- you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).' Irrelevant. I agree with you on this. Now as far as people not sticking around to feel the damage. Congradulations thats one less foe my party has to deal with or I chase you down and continue to assualt you. By yourself, yes this build does have difficulties with keeping someone to hold still long enough to use the combo. But the beauty of the build is YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THE Channel the Storm Ability. If you wan't to take those AoOps then by all means go for it, but this is a very powerful way to take advantage of all those good little AoOp's your getting and potentially turn them into something more. On top of all of this, this build doesn't take into account manuevers, spells, class abilities, ect..... There are plenty of ways to keep someone close to your or to catch up with someone. The problem with this thought is now you have a conditional ability. It is only useful SOME of the time. It's like taking Improved Trip...yeah, you can attempt to trip, but most of the time, you don't want to. Or Improved Grapple, which gives you a great grapple mod...except grappling is generally a fool's game, and you'll hardly ever use it. Even a feat like Close Quarters Fighting is barely marginally useful, because it's a Grapple defense, and if your foe doesn't Grapple, it's sitting there useless. You've wasted a feat for nothing. You're better off with spending gold for Free Action, rather then giving up a permanent change to your character. What this feat is, is a conditional, tactical feat, and you have to actively work to make it viable. It's like Stand Still and Thicket of Blades...Stand Still is almost useless in and of itself, because of Tumbling. Thicket neutralizes that, and now you can make a Lock. But Stormguard is worse, because you're not using those AoO's early, and it's totally dependent on the creatures actually triggering AoO's, and then sticking around to get plastered by your full attack. Full attacks at any level of the game from a good melee are going to be death sentences for most creatures. Only a really dumb brute or something with insane hit points is going to stick around and try to soak what you are about to do to it. I'm not saying this isn't useful. I'm saying it's not as good as you think. I'm also saying that it's not as powerful as you think, and requires DM complicity to get off reliably. And as for the foe 'not sticking around', I mean they aren't sticking around for a full attack. They can move away and attack by a variety of means. They can move YOU away (awesome blow comes to mind), or Trip you, or whatever. They aren't fleeing...they are tactically avoiding your full attack. I'd also be very wary of this combo being used against you. NPC's do not get the wealth of PC's...but they get everything else. ==Aelryinth |
| #18thinkingboxAug 16, 2009 12:47:22 | I'm going to agree with Aelryinth on this, due to one word in the text of Stormguard Warrior: "Channel the Storm: To use this option, you must choose to refrain from making one or more availiable attacks of opportunity against a single opponent." If I have a 16 Dex and Combat Reflexes, I have 4 attacks of opportunity available. Therefore, I can refrain from taking 4 attacks of opportunity, gaining +16/+16. Still a decent feat in the right circumstances, but I don't believe it has infinite capacity. -TB |
| #19eviltedziesAug 16, 2009 15:36:07 | Ok if your statement about the swing is official errata then I can understand the two not stacking. Could you please post a link to the page where I can read the errata. Thanks in advance. Next, yes I know Robilar's is a level 12 feat and I also know that Karmic Strike requires you to be hit. I never said this build was perfect. In most situations early game or end game magic items will trump Channel the Storm. BUT at higher levels creatures get more attacks. So logically there us a greater number of AoOp's we can take on them or refrain in this case. There is still the potential of this feat to outdamage your full attack plus your AoOp's, but the better magic items you gain the harder it becomes to meet that potential. I disagree. Refraining from using an attack to do something else clearly implies a fueling element. I don't see anything in Channel the Storm to indicate it suddenly grants you the ability to take advantage of unlimited numbers of Opportunities. By this logic, you could forgo 1000 AoO's, and then attack and still get your 3. That makes no sense. Ok your first issue is your use of the words "implies." By saying you believe it implies something that means it is no longer RAW. This brings it into the realm of DM interpretation. Now I'll admit most DM's would agree with you, but I'm looking at this from a RAW standpoint. By RAW nothing in the wording of the feat says we actually "use" an AoOp to power the feat. This is also saying that if you have No AoO's left, you can STILL use this feat. Because you're just sitting there doing nothing, 'refraining' from an AoO. The wording availiable in the feat does impose a limit, but not a maximum number of AoOp limit. Instead "availiable" means that you have to have at least 1 AoOp availiable for use. If I spend all my AoOp's for the turn I cannot use any more potential AoOp's to fuel the feat because even if I wanted to I couldn't actually "make" the AoOp's. So the above staement is incorrect. Your hyrda scenario is actually correct. By RAW I am legally allowed to "refrain" from taking 9 AoOp's and then use my availiable 3 AoOp's on the last three heads. On the following round I would have a +36 bonus to hit and damage. Justify that to your DM, will you? "Yeah, DM, I have 12 AoO's I can take, see? This feat lets me Not Use an infinite number of AoO's." Oh I'm not saying most sane DM's wouldn't house rule something regarding the use of this feat. But refraining from taking an AoOp REGARDLESS of the reason is still NOT TAKING AN AoOp. Therefor we still have usable AoOps availiable. I don't see how you can justify not taking an AoOp as actually using it? Granted WoTc could have worded the feat better, but until an errata is released I can, by RAW, use the feat in its most cheesy capacity. There's ignoring the opportunity, and then refraining from making the attack to do something else. Clearly there's a "Instead of Attacking I'm doing This", and both are working off your AoO's. Once again, it does not say the AoOp is actually used in the process. Nor does anything in the rules state that "refraining" or refusing to take an AoOp count as one of my AoOp's for the round. By that logic every time we "ignored" taking an AoOp it would use up one of our AoO['s for the round. But Stormguard is worse, because you're not using those AoO's early, and it's totally dependent on the creatures actually triggering AoO's, and then sticking around to get plastered by your full attack. Full attacks at any level of the game from a good melee are going to be death sentences for most creatures. Only a really dumb brute or something with insane hit points is going to stick around and try to soak what you are about to do to it. Just as you said Storguard warrior is a conditional tactic. But one point I mentioned earlier is that worst case scenarion YOU YOUSELF can make the creature trigger the AoOp. Read a scroll in front of them, drop or sheath weapon. All these things provoke AoOps which, regardless of whether they hit or not, trigger Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. As for getting hit. Yes I agree that it is not wise to allow yourself to get hit. I also never said someone using this tactic couldn't go full combat expertise. Karmic Strike adds an additional element to the build which means that if you DO somehow get hit even with your high AC, you at least gain something out of it. Then we keep coming back to the enemies not sticking around. Pick and choose the times to use the tactic wisely. If your fighting a hulking troll you've got a safe bet that hes going to try to wail on you until your dead. If your fighting a caster then this tactic becomes useless and picking up a bow or some alternative method becomes more viable. It is a conditional feat, but if used at the RIGHT times it can devastate your enemy. Lastly, as for NPC's using this tactic. This thread was for optimization purposes. How a DM uses it is not the point. How they interpret it does matter. |
| #20thinkingboxAug 16, 2009 15:51:41 | Once again, it does not say the AoOp is actually used in the process. Nor does anything in the rules state that "refraining" or refusing to take an AoOp count as one of my AoOp's for the round. By that logic every time we "ignored" taking an AoOp it would use up one of our AoO['s for the round. Ignoring an attack (not the same as refraining to garner benefits from a feat) would only use one of your AoOs for the round if you used it to gain bonuses from Stormguard Warrior. Otherwise you can save your AoOs as normal, but you don't accrue any bonuses for doing so. I do enjoy the prospect of fighting something with more attacks than you have AoOs and just "refraining" from taking the remainder. That's like free damage. -TB |
| #21acereraklivesAug 16, 2009 15:55:21 | Aelrynth: I couldn't find any +15 BAB feats in the ToB, but maybe you were thinking of the feats in PHB II? A lot of them, like Defensive Sweep, have high BAB reqs and are useful for tanking builds. I think both sides have laid out their arguments regarding the limit on AOO's pretty well by now. I don't think it was the intention of the designers to limit the feat based on maximum AOO's, but it's a reasonable house-rule to make anyhow. Moving on from that discussion, are there any more suggestions to improving this ability? I think raging mongoose for extra attacks on the second round is almost a no-brainer, as is finding ways to prevent your opponent from moving away from you (trip, crusader dip, relying on allies, etc). It also looks to me like power attack would be better for this than two-weapon fighting in most cases. |
| #22thinkingboxAug 16, 2009 20:02:55 | Moving on from that discussion, are there any more suggestions to improving this ability? I think raging mongoose for extra attacks on the second round is almost a no-brainer, as is finding ways to prevent your opponent from moving away from you (trip, crusader dip, relying on allies, etc). It also looks to me like power attack would be better for this than two-weapon fighting in most cases. Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still for 10+ attacks. Also, Sudden Leap + Pouncing Charge + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack with a Valorous weapon would also be acceptable. |
| #23aelryinthAug 16, 2009 23:26:08 | The above is pretty much the kicker combo. Either you generate as many attacks as possible to maximize the number of times the bonus is used, or you make sure you can full attack the enemy, with a damage multiplying pounce build. The idea of Power Attack is nice if you get the bonuses high enough. However, the limiting factor is you are using iteratives doing this, and you want those iteratives to hit. It is going to be very difficult for Power Attack to make up for that extra iterative missing if you lower the bonus too much. And since you only gain bonuses against ONE opponent at a time (meaning you pretty much have to Robilar to get multiple stacks), it's seldom going to be high enough where Power Attack is a factor, unless you are limited to a single attack back...in which case, Power Attack away! ==Aelryinth |