Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Endarire Dec 06, 2008 0:10:17	Matches Each match will be played twice; first with one buff round, the second with no buff rounds. 1: Match one allows all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine. 2: Match two allows the fighter all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine while the wizard is stuck with core material. 3: Match three is core-only for both sides. Brackets 1: "Pure." A fighter must take every level as fighter and a bard must take every level as bard. 2: "Hybrid." A fighter may be any class that does not result in him getting a level of any 'full' casting or manifesting class, nor can he take bard or any class that grants bardic knowledge, bardic song, or the equivalent. (No wizard, psion, sorcerer, cleric, druid, wu jen, healer... Blackguard, prestige paladin, paladin, psychic warrior, ranger, hexblade... are OK.) Martial adept levels are allowed and encouraged. At each level, a bard must take a level in a class that progresses arcane casting, bard song, bardic knowledge, or the equivalent. By extension, this also means no fighter levels. (You could be a bard10/seeker of the song5 with level 10 bardic casting ability but full music. No wizard, cleric, sorcerer, paladin, fighter, ur-priest, psion... for you. Also, no sublime chord since it allows level 9 spells.) Environment A 100'x100'x100' closed-top, closed-sides arena. The entire area is lit well enough so humans can see without hindrance. Rules 1: Each person gets the standard amount of wealth by ECL. Forcing a genie to grant you a wish so you can get more money (via an item, selling a wall of iron...) won't work, but forcing said genie to cast other spells to aid you during the fight is OK. (It can use wish to reproduce heal, for example.) 2: No infinite or nearly infinite loops. Sorry, Pun-Pun. 3: The core rules are defined to include only the PHB, DMG, and first MM. The latest eratta is used for all. 4: The rules as written will be used unless it produces an infinite or a nearly infinite loop. 5: Any called creature (such as via gate or planar binding) can call creatures, but it must wait at least 1 minute (10 rounds) to do so. Thus using gate to call a solar will bring in a solar, but it can only use gate 10 rounds after appearing. This change subverts an infinite loop. 6: Custom magic items are allowed as per the DMG's formulas. Standard items are priced as normal. (No Thought Bottles or artifacts.) 7: If you're out of the arena on its native plane for more than 1 round during the fight, you lose. (Time is counted on the arena's native plane, meaning hopping to your genesis demiplane and tossing spells for a 'century' on that plane won't work.) 8: Magic/Psionic transparency is in place. 9: No sublime chord. We'd end up in a wizard vs fighter scenario.
#2 DeAnno Dec 06, 2008 0:54:56	I think these threads would have a much better chance of going somewhere if you threw out your brackets and matches and decided on one ruleset for CO to debate.
#3 Maat_Mons Dec 06, 2008 1:02:56	Speaking of throwing out brackets, the hybrid bracket allows the bard to use sublime chord to gain 9th level sorcerer/wizard spells, so there’s little point in reopening that.
#4 Endarire Dec 06, 2008 2:41:23	I specifically banned sublime chord because it would turn into wizard vs fighter.
#5 jaronk Dec 06, 2008 4:33:00	"2: Match two allows the fighter all printed stuff from WotC that isn't in a magazine while the wizard is stuck with core material." I sense a problem with match 2. I also think the Fighter would have a REALLY tough time with an Inspire Awe Bard with Requiem and Haunting Melody, plus perhaps Imperious Command. That causes the Fighter to just run around like a chicken with his head cut off, and Necropolitan won't save him there. Still, this is at least a better fight than the Wizard nonsense. JaronK
#6 Endarire Dec 06, 2008 20:53:47	Even in core-only, the fighter seems hosed. Would Fighter20 vs Monk20 favor the fighter?
#7 ninjarabbit Dec 06, 2008 21:12:07	What about a bard/paladin with the devoted performer and initiate of miil feats that stack bard and paladin levels for bardic music abilities?
#8 Endarire Dec 06, 2008 21:33:39	Ninjarabbit: That should be allowed.
#9 liquid150 Dec 06, 2008 21:57:58	Even in core-only, the fighter seems hosed. Would Fighter20 vs Monk20 favor the fighter? of course not...a level 20 monk should destroy a fighter...
#10 unundindur Dec 06, 2008 22:42:08	In the case of monk/fighter I am not that sure... A reach fighter should have a descent change of beeing an ass. When we allow all kinds of gear thugh, its no longer a battle of classes in this case, but rather a battle of gear...
#11 jaronk Dec 07, 2008 6:19:04	of course not...a level 20 monk should destroy a fighter... Not sure why, they're actually pretty darn close. Heck, I'd say Monk 20 vs Fighter 20 is the best fight idea I've seen so far! JaronK
#12 ninjarabbit Dec 07, 2008 8:16:33	Ninjarabbit: That should be allowed. Then I could make a bard1/paladin19 1-able learner (max out perform and UMD), power attack 3-devoted performer 6-divine might 9-initate of milil 12-battle blessing 15-awesome smite 18-practiced spellcaster