Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 catawampus Jul 03, 2011 21:31:20	Hello, I am new to RPG’s and I’m trying to build a 3rd level rogue for an upcoming 3.5 campaign. He is going to be the only skill heavy character in the group (the other characters are a cleric, paladin, and sorcerer). The concept the DM and I have come up with is a cat burglar who is also the face of the party. Core-only for the most part, although I may be allowed a feat or two from another book. The stats I have to work with are 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 12. Due to setting constraints he is going to be human. For combat I’m thinking two-weapon fighting. Where should I put my stats? What skills/feats should I choose? How should I advance him? Thank you
#2 Maat_Mons Jul 04, 2011 0:10:23	You should probably read through the rogue handbook. Two-weapon fighting is a common way to go with rogue. You'll need to put a good score in dexterity to meet the requirements for the feats. You'll want to take weapon finesse so you have one less ability you need to keep high. I'd put the 18 in dexterity, since you'll be using it for a lot. I'd put the 16 in constitution, since rogues aren't the most durable and you want to be able to get into the thick of things. I'd put the 14 in intelligence, for the skill points. The remaining scores are identical for most purposes. The exceptions are that 13 strength gives you a higher carrying capacity than 12 strength, certain feats require 13 in an ability, and you could choose to add your ability increase at 4th level to it. As far as non-core material goes, you should ask about penetrating strike. It's an alternate class feature From Dungeonscape. You lose trapfinding, but you can deal half your sneak attack damage to creatures normally immune, but only when you flank them. There is a similar one in Complete Champion that only works on undead but also works when they're flat-footed.
#3 Krusk Jul 04, 2011 5:53:05	For combat I’m thinking two-weapon fighting. Where should I put my stats? What skills/feats should I choose? How should I advance him? Thank you Two weapon fighting is a great idea for a rogue. Str 13, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12. Possibly consider switching int and cha, if you find yourself needing to act as the leader/social guy of the group. Skills- You will have 9 + int mod that you can keep maxed at all times. bluff, diplomacy, disable device, Know local, use magic device, and search are high priority. Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, tumble, sense motive, intimidate, are secondary skills that can come in handy go for 5 ranks or so in them if you have extra skill points to spend. Feats - You want two weapon fighting, you want weapon finesse, for your third consider improved initiative so you can get into place on the first round of combat. Don't go for spring attack. You want to make as many attacks as possible each round, and can't do that while moving. It looks like a rogue feat, and so I bring it up. I recomend daggers for a rogue's weaponswhen using two of them. Advancement - Rogue is one of the few classes where rogue 20 is a totally legit choice no one will mock you for playing. If you have time, browse complete warrior/adventurer/scoundrel for prestige classes. If you see one you like, consider going into it. Having at least normal sneak attack is usually my requirement for considering it though.
#4 catawampus Jul 04, 2011 13:18:01	Thank you both for your help. Is it useful to have both bluff and diplomacy? It seems that with a slight rewording of your bluff/diplomacy, one can become the other. Is "use magic device" necessary if there is already a divine and arcane spell caster in the party? Krusk, you suggest using two daggers. Is there any reason not to use rapier/short sword? I could always just have throwing knives sheathed.
#5 dmverdandi Jul 04, 2011 18:25:21	Thank you both for your help. Is it useful to have both bluff and diplomacy? It seems that with a slight rewording of your bluff/diplomacy, one can become the other. Is "use magic device" necessary if there is already a divine and arcane spell caster in the party? Krusk, you suggest using two daggers. Is there any reason not to use rapier/short sword? I could always just have throwing knives sheathed. Yes. 5 Ranks in bluff gets you +2 on all diplomacy checks. They synergize.  As for two weapons, I would Use a medium rapier in one hand, and a small in the other.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 04, 2011 19:13:58	Thank you both for your help. Is it useful to have both bluff and diplomacy? It seems that with a slight rewording of your bluff/diplomacy, one can become the other. Is "use magic device" necessary if there is already a divine and arcane spell caster in the party? Krusk, you suggest using two daggers. Is there any reason not to use rapier/short sword? I could always just have throwing knives sheathed. Yes. 5 Ranks in bluff gets you +2 on all diplomacy checks. They synergize.  As for two weapons, I would Use a medium rapier in one hand, and a small in the other.  The small rapier would give you an extra -2 on your attack rolls on top of the TWF penalties. As a rogue - especially a low level one - this is a bad idea. Rapier/short sword is the usual suggestion unless you have Martial Weapon Proficiency (in which case a kukri replaces the short sword), or if you plan on going for weapon-specific feats like Weapon Focus (in which case you should use two identical weapons, usually short swords (best overall damage among light rogue weapons), daggers (easier to conceal and can be thrown), or kukris (highest critical hit rate among light weapons, but requires Martial Weapon Proficiency)). Don't worry TOO much about the weapons - most of your damage will come from Sneak Attack anyway. Bluff is used to convince a target of something that isn't true. Diplomacy is used to change attitudes and adjust opinions directly. They have different ramnifications. However, at least 5 ranks in Bluff is worth it in any case - not only for the Diplomacy synergy, but also because it's a good skill in its own right (feinting, creating a diversion to hide, etc). Don't neglect Diplomacy, but do be aware of the number of other ways to boost it (+2 from 5 ranks in each of Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Nobility), and so on can add up, and those skills may be better investments than Diplomacy itself. I.e. 5 ranks in Bluff gets you the equivalent of 7 ranks overall.).  Use Magic Device is less useful if you have two casters in the party, but you can still use it to bypass racial or alignment requirements, and you can activate things that neither of them are powerful enough for yet. It's usually a ZOMG skill, but it's more of a support skill in your particular case. Consider putting a few ranks in it, but you don't need to master it.
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 05, 2011 0:05:55	Rapier/short sword is the usual suggestion unless you have Martial Weapon Proficiency (in which case a kukri replaces the short sword), or if you plan on going for weapon-specific feats like Weapon Focus (in which case you should use two identical weapons, usually short swords (best overall damage among light rogue weapons), daggers (easier to conceal and can be thrown), or kukris (highest critical hit rate among light weapons, but requires Martial Weapon Proficiency)). Don't worry TOO much about the weapons - most of your damage will come from Sneak Attack anyway. Agreed.  If you do look at weapons, you want to look for properties that can't easily be replicated.  I'm a fan of the kusari-gama (DMG, page 144-145), which is worth an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat if you want reach on a light weapon.
#8 Krusk Jul 05, 2011 10:17:22	Krusk, you suggest using two daggers. Is there any reason not to use rapier/short sword? I could always just have throwing knives sheathed. I like two of the same weapon, so if you take any feats for it, it applies to both. This puts it to shortsword/shortsword. I go daggers, because the ease of hiding them, and the ability to throw them. Plus they get a little more support prestige classwise.  Don't use a small rapier, using wrong a sized weapon has a penalty to attack rolls associated with it. You already have medium BAB and two weapon penalties. Bluff/diplomacy. Bluff gives synergy which is nice. Sometimes you are in awkward places, and you can't come up with a way to use one over the other. Also consider many DMs rule the intent of the phrase, not the words, determine which skill to use. If you are tricking them with diplomatic arguements, that is a bluff check regardless of how bad you want to use diplomacy. Its safer to put ranks in both. UMD - This is one of those awesome skills if you have the chance you should max. You can now go buy wands and pretend you are a spellcaster. This is pretty big, because spellcasters are the ****. Alternatively, they don't have to bother spending spell slots to buff you if you have a wand of buff. Maybe you go scouting on your own, invis would be handy and its duration is not in the hours/level. They can't buff you, but you an as soon as you see someone to hide from. If they are a sorcerer or the like, they don't have to learn spells that buff you and can instead learn that other spell they want.