Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 madgryphon Mar 12, 2009 17:40:22	Okay, I'm in a very low magic campaign wetting, but all alchemical stuff is as normal. My character is very, very skill monkey (DM custom class with 10 sp a level and all class skills), and relies on thrown alchemical items a lot. The only problem with that being that the range increment sucks. Now, admittedly, I could take far shot, but for several reasons, it works better with the character to create his own invention. Now then, I'm interested in hearing the board's suggestions for grenade launcher devices, although I have my own basic idea(s) already. I figure most of the possibilities break down into several categories: 1. Man-powered/Thrown (inefficient) 2. Torsion/Spring powered (reload becomes a problem) 3. Hydraulic (messy) 4. Pneumatic (difficulties with closed system or generating pressure) So far, my favorite idea, though it hasn't come to full realization yet it to take the powdered water from Dragon Compendium and somehow encase it in a closed system. Then with the introduction of a little water, poof! Instant pressurized system. For those of you who don't know, one ounce of the powdered water stuff becomes one gallon of water, with the addition of a single drop of water. My problem being, I don't know how to put it to use. I realize this thread will quickly become an engineering sort of thing, but who's better at that than, CharOp? Also, does anyone need anymore information on the campaign/character?
#2 iamthatguy Mar 12, 2009 18:01:44	I don't have much credibility for this sort of thing (sophmore in high school), so I will provide a possible way around the range problem. Do you have someone like a monk who can generally win initiative and just run up, us item x, and run back or stay? Also look at the weapon capsules from CAdv (May be mistaken), I am pretty sure you can fill arrows with your own alchemical concoctions.
#3 madgryphon Mar 12, 2009 18:13:43	We don't have a monk, and generally, the party isn't terribly all around cooperative. What's more, the precednce set by alchemical arrows is not particularly promising, although, I do have this character use them relatively often anyways. I may still talk to the DM about custom alchemical arrows. That's a good idea. Part of the flavor of the character is to invent his own weapon, though. For instance, early in the campaign, he altered someone's whip to be able to apply poison to it through a series of channels in the whip itself that stemmed from the handle. He's *that* guy in the campaign.
#4 iamthatguy Mar 12, 2009 18:35:22	Reference to my name! :cookie I had an artificer in one of my campaigns who created his own crazy weapon. Basically a four way chain whit a different weapon on each end in addition to the scourges on the ends. I made him take Exotic Wep Prof twice to use it. Fun as hell to play with. If I were you I would design my own poison or other damaging substance and then if you have a wizard, make a backpack factory. I read about the backpack factory a long time ago and I don't remember where it is, but hopefully someone can help with that. basically you get a back of holding with the product output of Detroit. After 3 days of "production" fill a bag of Holding with the substance. Then get 2 ring gates. Just chuck one in the room of baddies. then go outside and empty the filled bag into the other ring gate! Could work with something as simple as achemists acid if you can gain access to or produce enough...
#5 madgryphon Mar 12, 2009 18:47:38	Sounds nice, but the problem would be the scarcity of magic users.
#6 keithio Mar 12, 2009 19:20:40	Just model your grenade launcher after a revolver, the mechanics of gun powder exploding and water powder expanding are the same. Instead of the gun's hammer striking a spark, it breaks the barrier separating powder from the water. Same effect in the end. Important difference: Grenades weigh a heck of a lot more than bullets - which means it won't be going nearly as far or as fast. To compensate for this, you will probably have to make lob shots artillery style instead of just going in a straight line to the target. You should probably just be making a real water powered revolver instead. Also, water and steam comes out of your gun when you fire instead of smoke. The feasibility of this depends on just how fast the powder expands when you add the drop of water - the faster it is the more force you get. Of course, if the speed is lacking you can always add more powder to boost the force. That is undesirable because it would make the gun heavier (Which means fewer shots in the barrel), and it costs more. EDIT: Take care not to explode when it rains....
#7 grim_sage Mar 12, 2009 19:22:15	The Gnome Calculus (Arms & Equipment Guide) is described as being a sling for alchemical weapons - giving them a range increment of 50 ft. Sounds like what you're looking for, pretty much - without resorting to real-world physics too much (pressurized systems and the like in D&D - while fun in TO - tend to cause more headaches than they're worth. YMMV, ofc).
#8 rymosrac Mar 12, 2009 21:20:40	My personal favorite grenade launcher is, unfortunately, magic. But it's pretty cheap, and ought to be reasonably easy to obtain even in a low-magic world given a rational (by my standards) DM. Take the DMG guidelines for designing magic items and create a command activated at-will use item of the 0-level spell Launch Object from Spell Compendium. Style the object after an M-79 grenade launcher and use it to fling crap at your foes. By the DMG guidelines, the price is only 900GP. It does have the significant drawback of being activated as a standard action instead of an attack action - losing effectiveness when it starts costing you iterative attacks.
#9 iamthatguy Mar 12, 2009 21:35:05	My bad, I wasn't even thinking of the Low-magic concept... Ummm almost every fun theory I know is based on magic in some form or another. I take it there's no psionics either?
#10 khorus Mar 13, 2009 7:18:43	Morter=Pipe + alch fire in the bottom + drop lead ball into pipe, crushes fire, shoots lead ball. Instant cannon. Maybe? Kinda?
#11 pithica Mar 13, 2009 7:30:13	I don't know how you define 'low-magic' but 'Launch Item' is a 0th level spell (I consider that low magic) that can effectively throw an item of up to 10 lbs 110ft at CL 1 (it's 100 + 10ft/caster level). A Command word item of that spell would only cost 900gp and be able to cast it at will. That's flasks of acid or alch fire or whatever at longbow range.
#12 hogarth Mar 13, 2009 7:59:51	I was too slow -- people already mentioned my two suggestions (Gnome Calculus and wand of Launch Item).
#13 fenrir423 Mar 13, 2009 10:19:06	You could always go to the modern era weapons in the DMG and just spend the gold on a grenade launcher.
#14 madgryphon Mar 14, 2009 14:23:54	Hmmmm... so far I like the revolver idea (keithio)and the launch item idea (Rymosrac and pithica) the best. And what's more, the launch item spell is technically feasible for this setting, as we can find magic items of up to 1000gp for triple their cost. So, the launch item weapon would cost me 2700, but we also just came into a large sum of money. I may do both... I can picture the firing pin giving me some trouble, because in a regular gun, it's a percussion based explosion... so how do I introduce water into the cartridge...
#15 Kerrus Mar 14, 2009 14:36:24	Ask your DM if you can alchemically make Dust of Dryness. Sure, it's a bit expensive, but you dump it on water and get a pellet that explodes into 100 gallons of water when smashed. Maybe even have your alchemist measure out amounts so that you get 100 1 gallon pressure pellets. EDIT: Make a slingshot out of trollgut. Or specially prepared crossbow bolts.
#16 amadithegreat Mar 14, 2009 14:39:38	Arguably a heavy crossbow should be able to fire a flask of alchemist's fire quite far. Maybe not as far as it shoots bolts, at least not accurately. I wouldn't put it beyond a specially engineered one (Wider ammo tray.) with specifically-made arrows (Good way of attaching the flask to the head.) to get up to half the range of normal heavy crossbow bolts with accuracy. The strength generated by the crossbow won't be a problem for sure. Alternatively, replacing the tray with a lot wider one, and adding some sort of wider part made out of leather to middle of the string should be able to fire flasks as-they-are, but a lot reduced accuracy. It would probably be faster to load, though.
#17 cole_caecus Mar 14, 2009 14:59:11	There are also alcemical bolts in the Arms and /equipment guide, like alchemists fire bolts and the like. Bolt, Alchemist’s: Each of these projectiles carries a deadly load of alchemist’s fire in its hollow shaft. When it strikes a target, the bolt's shaft shatters, releasing the alchemist’s fire directly onto the target. One round after impact, the alchemist’s fire ignites, dealing 1d4 points of damage. The target can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this damage. It takes a successful Reflex saving throw (DC 15) to extinguish the flames. Rolling on the ground earns the target a +2 bonus on the save. Submerging (such as by leaping into a lake) or magically extinguishing the flames automatically kills the flames. I know there is a stronger version of Alchemists Fire called Oil of Impact, basicly explodes on impact, but i dont know where it is. I believe it does twice the damage of alchemists fire, but only one target. On another note, you could get Bolts of Spell Storing, which can store up to a level 3 spell in them, and have that spell be Fireball. Theres a grenade launcher right there, lol.
#18 hijaxx Mar 15, 2009 3:24:32	Bolts of spell storing: he said it was low magic. Maybe your DM will let you make a powder version of acid/alchemist fire(just like powder water). Fire that from a calculus/modified crossbow, in small glass flasks, with the stopper being a hollow glass stopper filled with water. low-magic grenade launcher!
#19 casualgatherer Mar 15, 2009 15:00:47	the problem with your revolver is going to be the amount of water. The seal between a flask and a barrel would have to be air-tight, or water would just explode out the tiny cracks between them. My contribution... I was in a campaign similar to this one, although my character was the alchemist for the group. He had something similar to bolas (basically, a rope with weights on both ends) with flasks of alchemical fire on the end. I pitched my idea to the DM, and he liked it so much it is now in every one of his campaigns. The cost for an item like this was, IIRC, 2 sp for a length of rope (silk rope / 50) or ten gp (for 50 lengths) + your choice of alchemical brew (this is the expensive part...). In the campaign, i made my own, so the only thing that i had to buy was rope, flasks and vials. (also ingredients, but i was using survival to find those.) As an aside, im sure that you could replace 1 flask of Alchemist's Fire with a stone or something if you didn't want to use more than 1 vial at a time.
#20 keithio Mar 15, 2009 18:22:59	the problem with your revolver is going to be the amount of water. The seal between a flask and a barrel would have to be air-tight, or water would just explode out the tiny cracks between them. I don't see it as a problem, you just keep the powder inside some material which is water repellent (Probably skin), sew or otherwise fuse it together, and then the hammer of the revolver pierces the casing and contact with the water is made.
#21 cole_caecus Mar 15, 2009 23:34:45	Bolts of spell storing: he said it was low magic. Bolts of spellstoring are a +1 anchantment, and the +1 on top of that. Its not that high a magic IMO. And you dont have to buy all 50 arrows at once either. you can Buy 10 of them for 1/10 the price. 10 explosive grenade arrows for 800 gold. or 20 for 1600 gold.
#22 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 5:54:31	Check out the Gnome Artificer from the 3.0 Magic of Faerun. That's where Launch Bolt came in, specifically as a spell that could be done in a non-magical way with an artificer device. Full rules are there, but nutshell of it is that artificer devices only work for a small list of spells, the items take up two body slots instead of one, but they don't take any XP to create, just money and time. It's sounds like what you need for your game setting.
#23 uhm_hoi Mar 16, 2009 11:11:39	Does low magic involve a bag of holding? if your group likes physics and a bag of holding is alowed you've got yourself a perfect grenade/caltrops/marbles/giant-corpses-the-necromancer-needed launcher. From the DMG "This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions." the smallest bag has 30 cu ft, the largest 250 "If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again." Talking about air presure right there. There is air in it, which is suddenly piled up in a much smaller space, namely the dimension in which you want your stuff to be launched. In a former campaign I played in, the rogue would constantly annoy the necromancer by shooting persuers with dead bodies the necromancer fancied. It was also funny as hell to let an entire horde of orcs slip because the rogue filled the bag with marbles (the dm counted it as a grease spell launched in a cone)
#24 madgryphon Mar 16, 2009 14:10:11	Well, you're right about all the trick you can play with a bag of holding, but unfortunately it's out of me price and availibility range in this campaign. We can find things up to 1000gp for triple their price, but anything normally over 1000 can't be found except as special treasure.